(Updated: )
Ricky Lim
Thought the Society can accept LBGT in a private space.
But accepting it in a public space by legalising it - will have different dimension all together :-
(1) It means we will see more LBGT openly expressing intimacy and affection in public spaces.
(2) Legalising marriage, applying for HDB flat, legalising as spouse, adoption of children, inheritance etc.
Are Singaporeans ready to accept this?
Thought nature provide for male and female fusion to produce offsprings.
By legalising LBGT - what it means to Society, culture, religions, social impact, Population replacement etc....
But accepting it in a public space by legalising it - will have different dimension all together :-
(1) It means we will see more LBGT openly expressing intimacy and affection in public spaces.
(2) Legalising marriage, applying for HDB flat, legalising as spouse, adoption of children, inheritance etc.
Are Singaporeans ready to accept this?
Thought nature provide for male and female fusion to produce offsprings.
By legalising LBGT - what it means to Society, culture, religions, social impact, Population replacement etc....
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
Ricky Lim
Singapore population replacement is 1.60 in 2016.
It means a father and a mother - only produce 1.6 children - which is way below population replacement level of 1.6 vs 2 adult.
Singapore citizens are :-
(1) 3.44 million Singapore citizens - and will not be able to replace itself base on replacement rate of 1.6.
(2) We rely on PR to become new citizens that make up about 0.5 million - else our population will deplete every year - unable to sustain Singapore Economy.
If we further legalise LBGT - our population replacement rate will drop further.
Wonder how does this benefit Singapore Society?
It means a father and a mother - only produce 1.6 children - which is way below population replacement level of 1.6 vs 2 adult.
Singapore citizens are :-
(1) 3.44 million Singapore citizens - and will not be able to replace itself base on replacement rate of 1.6.
(2) We rely on PR to become new citizens that make up about 0.5 million - else our population will deplete every year - unable to sustain Singapore Economy.
If we further legalise LBGT - our population replacement rate will drop further.
Wonder how does this benefit Singapore Society?
Like · Reply · 1m
Damian Haywood
Just to correct your understanding:
1) Current 377A does not forbids LBGT openly expressing intimacy and affection in public spaces. A man can kiss another man in public spaces.
2. Current 377A has nothing to do with legalising marriage, applying for HDB etc. 377A criminalise consensual sex between 2 men. So, repealing 377A does not means marriage between men is legalised etc. Repealing 377A means the state can't prosecute 2 men for having sex.
1) Current 377A does not forbids LBGT openly expressing intimacy and affection in public spaces. A man can kiss another man in public spaces.
2. Current 377A has nothing to do with legalising marriage, applying for HDB etc. 377A criminalise consensual sex between 2 men. So, repealing 377A does not means marriage between men is legalised etc. Repealing 377A means the state can't prosecute 2 men for having sex.
Reply · 20m
Ricky Lim
Damian Haywood - Understood the legal standpoint.
But please also take note of Ela Wong response.
One lead to another.
The moment you lift the legal clause - the rest will follow.
Ela Wong has just demonstrate the subsequent demand.
Another thing - why should Society legalise something that is anti-Nature?
Eg. do we legalise anti-social behavior such as drawing grafitti in public areas just because someone has the urge to show off their arts?
Or should the Society legalise sexual union between man and animals - if taken one step further - that is anti-Nature?
But please also take note of Ela Wong response.
One lead to another.
The moment you lift the legal clause - the rest will follow.
Ela Wong has just demonstrate the subsequent demand.
Another thing - why should Society legalise something that is anti-Nature?
Eg. do we legalise anti-social behavior such as drawing grafitti in public areas just because someone has the urge to show off their arts?
Or should the Society legalise sexual union between man and animals - if taken one step further - that is anti-Nature?
Like · Reply · 1m
Damien Vesper
Ricky Lim Is it anti-nature? They were born like that. Scientists hve agreed even LKY admitted that they were born like that.
However, you are not born to want to f'ck cows or animals.
Is love between 2 mature adults anti-social?
However, you are not born to want to f'ck cows or animals.
Is love between 2 mature adults anti-social?
Ricky Lim
Damien Vesper - Now can see that you are very upset - when i try to associate some anti-nature behavior - human with animal.
Similarly, the majority feel the same - about legalising something that is anti-nature or unnatural.
I did not say Society should ostracise them nor discriminate them.
But legalise them is a different kettle of fish ---- when I quote an example of human and beast --- that make you jump the roof. Can see that you cannot accept this fact - when you find it objectionable.
Similarly, the majority feel the same - about legalising something that is anti-nature or unnatural.
I did not say Society should ostracise them nor discriminate them.
But legalise them is a different kettle of fish ---- when I quote an example of human and beast --- that make you jump the roof. Can see that you cannot accept this fact - when you find it objectionable.
Like · Reply · 1m · Edited
Damien Vesper
Ricky Lim That is fair but i would like to point out by judging things and making laws based on nature and anti-nature is opening a whole door. Is abortion natural? This is not exactly about legalising something natural or unnatural. This is about removing a law that punish people for something they cannot change themselves.
Ricky Lim
Outrages on decency
377A. Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.
Sexual penetration with living animal
377B.—(1) Any person (A) who —
(a) penetrates, with A’s penis, the vagina, anus or any orifice of an animal; or
(b) causes or permits A’s vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, to be penetrated by the penis of an animal,
shall be guilty of an offence.
[51/2007]
(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
[51/2007]
(3) Any person (A) who —
(a) causes any man (B) to penetrate, with B’s penis, the vagina, anus or any orifice of an animal; or
(b) causes the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of another person (B) to be penetrated with the penis of an animal,
shall be guilty of an offence if B did not consent to the penetration.
[51/2007]
(4) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (3) shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 20 years, and shall also be liable to fine or to caning.
377A. Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.
Sexual penetration with living animal
377B.—(1) Any person (A) who —
(a) penetrates, with A’s penis, the vagina, anus or any orifice of an animal; or
(b) causes or permits A’s vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, to be penetrated by the penis of an animal,
shall be guilty of an offence.
[51/2007]
(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
[51/2007]
(3) Any person (A) who —
(a) causes any man (B) to penetrate, with B’s penis, the vagina, anus or any orifice of an animal; or
(b) causes the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of another person (B) to be penetrated with the penis of an animal,
shall be guilty of an offence if B did not consent to the penetration.
[51/2007]
(4) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (3) shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 20 years, and shall also be liable to fine or to caning.
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
Damien Vesper - I will like to address the issue of "This is about removing a law that punish people for something they cannot change themselves."
(1) A couple in love - boyfriend and girlfriend - can break off when they feel they can't be together.
(2) Man or Woman - can stay single and not married.
(3) Monks or Nuns - can stay in celibacy without marriage.
It is not something that one cannot control.
I agree with consenting adults - they can have their own privacy --- even to the extent of defying nature of sexual union.
But legalising it - means approving their sexual union --- go against the principle of human existence.
Both gays and lesbians will not exist in this World - without sexual union of their father and mother - a male and a female - due to Law of Nature. Human must remember this.
Taking the debate further down the taboo of objectionable defiance of nature - if you argue that "they can't control themselves".
Why not a human mate with his female dog that he love so much - and want an offspring with the female dog? Both the man and female dog are consenting adults and they are in love what?
(1) A couple in love - boyfriend and girlfriend - can break off when they feel they can't be together.
(2) Man or Woman - can stay single and not married.
(3) Monks or Nuns - can stay in celibacy without marriage.
It is not something that one cannot control.
I agree with consenting adults - they can have their own privacy --- even to the extent of defying nature of sexual union.
But legalising it - means approving their sexual union --- go against the principle of human existence.
Both gays and lesbians will not exist in this World - without sexual union of their father and mother - a male and a female - due to Law of Nature. Human must remember this.
Taking the debate further down the taboo of objectionable defiance of nature - if you argue that "they can't control themselves".
Why not a human mate with his female dog that he love so much - and want an offspring with the female dog? Both the man and female dog are consenting adults and they are in love what?
Where do you draw the line?
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
Damien Vesper - There was prediction of a Wise Man many thousands years ago which said :-
"The day when the World moral ethics turn topsy turvy.
It will be the day when the World humanity cease to exist."
We have seen "Trump's moral ethics turning topsy turvy" - Global climate is a hoax, human morality turn upside down.
Now the very existence of how humans are created --- the male and female sexual union are infringe...
All these are working towards the extinction of Humanity......
是非颠倒，因果当至。（When what is right become wrong, when the moral ethics turn topsy turvy, Universal Law of Karma will kicks in).
"The day when the World moral ethics turn topsy turvy.
It will be the day when the World humanity cease to exist."
We have seen "Trump's moral ethics turning topsy turvy" - Global climate is a hoax, human morality turn upside down.
Now the very existence of how humans are created --- the male and female sexual union are infringe...
All these are working towards the extinction of Humanity......
是非颠倒，因果当至。（When what is right become wrong, when the moral ethics turn topsy turvy, Universal Law of Karma will kicks in).
Like · Reply · 1m · Edited
Damien Vesper
Ricky Lim I agree with consenting adults - they can have their own privacy' look at the law it states 'in public or PRIVATE'. There is that part there. So you do agree on repealing this law. The public part can stay because even heterosexual sex is illegal in public. And exactly. Who cares what 2 mature adults do in private. There should not be a law forbidding them.
Ricky Lim
Damien Vesper - by striking the "Private" - it means "explicitly" agree with the sexual union of both males --- that I disagree.
But implicitly (Compassion wise) - it is between them - with 2 consenting adults.
So the act still stay - "Explicitly".
The reason being :- "The creation of Human - is the sexual union of male and female. This is a Universal Law. No one can change it."
"By changing this Universal Law - will invoke the Universal Law of Karma - due to defiance of Law of Nature !"
But implicitly (Compassion wise) - it is between them - with 2 consenting adults.
So the act still stay - "Explicitly".
The reason being :- "The creation of Human - is the sexual union of male and female. This is a Universal Law. No one can change it."
"By changing this Universal Law - will invoke the Universal Law of Karma - due to defiance of Law of Nature !"
Like · Reply · 1m
Damien Vesper
Gay marriage itself is a different topic and i agree our society is not ready until the public is more open but first we need to focus on decriminalizing homosexuality.
First we have to establish what is immoral. Is denying climate change/science morally wrong? Is love between 2 mature adults immoral? Humans won't go extinct at least 90% of the population is fertile and heterosexual. Its a bit dramatic that this would lead to humanity's extinction.
First we have to establish what is immoral. Is denying climate change/science morally wrong? Is love between 2 mature adults immoral? Humans won't go extinct at least 90% of the population is fertile and heterosexual. Its a bit dramatic that this would lead to humanity's extinction.
Like · Reply · 13m
Ricky Lim
Damien Vesper - by striking the "Private" - it means "explicitly" agree with the sexual union of both males --- that I disagree.
But implicitly (Compassion wise) - it is between them - with 2 consenting adults.
So the act still stay - "Explicitly".
The reason being :- "The creation of Human - is the sexual union of male and female. This is a Universal Law. No one can change it."
"By changing this Universal Law - will invoke the Universal Law of Karma - due to defiance of Law of Nature !"
But implicitly (Compassion wise) - it is between them - with 2 consenting adults.
So the act still stay - "Explicitly".
The reason being :- "The creation of Human - is the sexual union of male and female. This is a Universal Law. No one can change it."
"By changing this Universal Law - will invoke the Universal Law of Karma - due to defiance of Law of Nature !"
Ricky Lim
Damien Vesper - "Is love between 2 mature adults immoral? Humans won't go extinct at least 90% of the population is fertile and heterosexual. Its a bit dramatic that this would lead to humanity's extinction."
To lead your statement further - should the Section 377B - Human and Beast be discriminalised as well - as is love between a human and a beast immoral?
To lead your statement further - should the Section 377B - Human and Beast be discriminalised as well - as is love between a human and a beast immoral?
Ricky Lim
Damien Vesper - "Is denying climate change/science morally wrong?"
A very good question --- if you look at the fire that engulf US California round the year, the hurricane, earthquake that hit Japan, Indonesia, Taiwan, the smog that engulf China, India, the extreme climate that hit the West, the East, the Australia, the Middle East, the US etc.
=== and yet humanity still think Global Climate is a hoax ---- is where Humanity work itself to extinction one day with Grace from the Universal Law of Karma.
Humanity has 3 poisons - Ignorance, Greed, Hatred (贪，嗔，痴）。
3 Minor catastrophe (Nature disaster, War - nuclear or World war, Epidemic) (天灾，人祸，瘟疫） will hit and wipe out Humanity when 3 poisons - Ignorance, Greed, Hatred (贪，嗔，痴）- reaches its maxim.
And going against the nature of human creation --- is invoking the maxim of Ignorance (痴）---- that will invite backlash of Universal Law of Karma --- that Human should cease to exist.
A very good question --- if you look at the fire that engulf US California round the year, the hurricane, earthquake that hit Japan, Indonesia, Taiwan, the smog that engulf China, India, the extreme climate that hit the West, the East, the Australia, the Middle East, the US etc.
=== and yet humanity still think Global Climate is a hoax ---- is where Humanity work itself to extinction one day with Grace from the Universal Law of Karma.
Humanity has 3 poisons - Ignorance, Greed, Hatred (贪，嗔，痴）。
3 Minor catastrophe (Nature disaster, War - nuclear or World war, Epidemic) (天灾，人祸，瘟疫） will hit and wipe out Humanity when 3 poisons - Ignorance, Greed, Hatred (贪，嗔，痴）- reaches its maxim.
And going against the nature of human creation --- is invoking the maxim of Ignorance (痴）---- that will invite backlash of Universal Law of Karma --- that Human should cease to exist.
Like · Reply · 2m
Ricky Lim
Science and Nature reinforce one another.
Science - Human damage Environment - Nature respond with Global Climate disaster.
Science - Male and Female sexual union - Nature give birth to offsprings.
This is Form = Formless, Formless = Form.
色既是空，空既是色。
If one mess around with this Science = Divinity = Nature ----- backlash of Universal Law of Karma will come - because it is turning science topsy turvy, turning Divinity topsy turvy, turning Nature topsy turvy.
Science - Human damage Environment - Nature respond with Global Climate disaster.
Science - Male and Female sexual union - Nature give birth to offsprings.
This is Form = Formless, Formless = Form.
色既是空，空既是色。
If one mess around with this Science = Divinity = Nature ----- backlash of Universal Law of Karma will come - because it is turning science topsy turvy, turning Divinity topsy turvy, turning Nature topsy turvy.
Like · Reply · 1m
Angie Huang
...why no mention of AIDS in the entire thread???...LGBT is nothing...switch off the denial mode - AIDS and no future are scary...
Spidy Sparrow
We are dignified nation base on early founders basic laws and principle of nation building of dignified man and woman, boy and girl of Singapore.
Spidy Sparrow
our founding fathers of our nation base on UK legislative laws,enriched from many Natural Law, to build a nation.
quote /////
Natural law (Latin: ius naturale, lex naturalis) is a philosophy asserting that certain rights are inherent by virtue of human nature, endowed by nature—traditionally by God or a transcendent source—and that these can be understood universally through human reason. As determined by nature, the law of nature is implied to be objective and universal;[1] it exists independently of human understanding, and of the positive law of a given state, political order, legislature or society at large.
Historically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature to deduce binding rules of moral behavior from nature's or God's creation of reality and mankind.
/////Unquote
quote /////
Natural law (Latin: ius naturale, lex naturalis) is a philosophy asserting that certain rights are inherent by virtue of human nature, endowed by nature—traditionally by God or a transcendent source—and that these can be understood universally through human reason. As determined by nature, the law of nature is implied to be objective and universal;[1] it exists independently of human understanding, and of the positive law of a given state, political order, legislature or society at large.
Historically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature to deduce binding rules of moral behavior from nature's or God's creation of reality and mankind.
/////Unquote
Reply · 1h
Vincent Tan
Does Singapore needs to kick up a ruckus again over such a divisive issue? Kind of tiring to see some in society kept raising issues to divide our society peace every now and then.
Joseph Lim
Very shocking and SAD to hear such a long time veteran diplomat doing the works of the 
😈 devil. To introduce such sins against GOD.
😈 devil. To introduce such sins against GOD.
Paladin Nicholas Lawrence
Probably after making this remark, he will be offered "mandatory early retirement" very soon.
Adrian KH See
Dear MFA,
As a family, we would like to know why your "esteemed" official is encouraging this, in our mainly tradiitonal family-focused Singapore.
As a family, we would like to know why your "esteemed" official is encouraging this, in our mainly tradiitonal family-focused Singapore.
Christopher Mathew Stephenson
This is silly. Singapore has legal gay spas, places like orcherd towers. I think the people of Singapore are living with a nieve mind
Georgie Lee
Tommy Koh - you should organise a meeting with all the AH KUAs at the Speaker Corner and get their views and then approach the Govt on their behalf.
Chris H Voxmsg
For Tommy Koh to encourage the idea... Has he not considered the implications to Society and Family?
Tjudin Tjong
May be Tommy Koh has a gay family, or he has developed a like of man.
Very disappointed with him.
My respect of him has gone down the drain.
Very disappointed with him.
My respect of him has gone down the drain.
Engchai Tan
Most Singaporean thinking are narrow & still handicaps by their religious believes & unwillingness to accept that this is naturally inborn.
They will rather tell their children to kill them self if they turn out to be LGBT instead of loving them.
This is very sad.
They will rather tell their children to kill them self if they turn out to be LGBT instead of loving them.
This is very sad.
George Lim
On! If lgbt are unsuccessful on the proposed Referendum , they must be quiet for the next 50 yrs.
Justin Lau
What hidden agenda does Tommy Koh have for suddenly raising this issue?
Truly, he has been a wonderful diplomat serving with great distinction for many years. For a person of his distinguished background to push this issue is not quite the right thing to do. He should consider carefully, and let us know what is really on his mind, and what he is really trying to do.
Truly, he has been a wonderful diplomat serving with great distinction for many years. For a person of his distinguished background to push this issue is not quite the right thing to do. He should consider carefully, and let us know what is really on his mind, and what he is really trying to do.
Lynn Lee
I am very against Ah Kua Rights or whatever Ah Kua Chapter.
Ah Kua are born like that, then can continue to stay and live normally without performing sodomy. No need to have Ah Kua Chapter to legalize sodomy.
Singapore can accept Ah Kuas but let them stay individual. We dont need to deceive ourselves that somebody born disabled is normal, so those born as Ah Kuas are not normal and let it remain as such.
Ah Kua are born like that, then can continue to stay and live normally without performing sodomy. No need to have Ah Kua Chapter to legalize sodomy.
Singapore can accept Ah Kuas but let them stay individual. We dont need to deceive ourselves that somebody born disabled is normal, so those born as Ah Kuas are not normal and let it remain as such.
Calvin Tang
Evolution of all species (including humans) do not discriminate, born and wired as a LGBTIQ is a human reality, it won’t stop whether we have straight or gay parents, as LGBTIQ constitutes 10% of population globally.
Please kindly spare a thought for the LGBTIQ community, what you take for granted as any basic human rights (equality, respect and dignity to love and be love legally) are not granted to others who are not wired the same way as you are.
Pls kindly have more compassion and empathy to LGBTIQ people, they work as hard as you to contribute to Sg economy and prosperity but they are not granted the same basic human rights as you do.
Please kindly spare a thought for the LGBTIQ community, what you take for granted as any basic human rights (equality, respect and dignity to love and be love legally) are not granted to others who are not wired the same way as you are.
Pls kindly have more compassion and empathy to LGBTIQ people, they work as hard as you to contribute to Sg economy and prosperity but they are not granted the same basic human rights as you do.
Kianpheng Ong
We respect the gay community of their choices but we don't subscribe to their lifestyle. I hope Tommy is not sending the wrong message.
Ing W Yang
The definition of "gross indecency" is very subjective.
What is Singapore going to be like when "gross indecency" becomes the norm.
What is Singapore going to be like when "gross indecency" becomes the norm.
Like · Reply · 6m
Qian Lin
Disappointing! All these have-beens are now speaking up when they should quietly settle into their sunset years. Sometimes it is better to keep quiet when you have nothing inspirational to say. Don't say things that may harm the fragile fabric of our society. I am losing all my respect for these former elder statesmen. Sigh
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