Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/377a-gay-sex-law-dj-files-court-challenge-singapore-10708288
(Updated: )
Ricky Lim
Ricky Lim
Guess Singapore should see Section 377A with 2 lens :-
(1) Explicit lens
(2) Implicit lens
Explicit lens - is to keep Section 377A - to give a sense of what is morally right - Nature that provide for creation of humans is through sexual union of a male and a female to produce offsprings and sustain the human civilisation.
Implicit lens - is to recognise that certain people suffered from illness and cannot behave like normal humans of a man or a woman to engage in normal sexual activity for the reproduction of offsprings.
And thus should not enforce Section 377A on them if they carried out their activity quietly in private.
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Ricky Lim
(1) The Explicit lens (is the Wisdom lens) - to prevent the invocation of Universal Law of Karma - to instill what is morally, nature right.
(2) The Implicit lens (is the Compassion lens) - to sympathise with the illness that some man and women inherit - and not prosecute them for which they have no control of.
But if treatment has become available, help must be granted to coax them to get treatment to heal the deviant tendency and get well
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Ricky Lim
(1) The Explicit lens - will deter normal human of man and woman from committing abnormal sexual activities.
This will prevent heterosexual male and female from experimenting homosexual and lesbian activities - moving into deviant anti-nature behavior.
This will be in line with other sexual deviant behavior - by preventing moral decadence that go against Nature.
(2) The Implicit lens - certify that certain individual man and woman indeed has illness in sexual orientation by medical profession.
Regular treatment is also implied to help such individual in mental and physical healing - that hopefully one day, they will be able to get well.
Like · Reply · 1m
Guess Singapore should see Section 377A with 2 lens :-
(1) Explicit lens
(2) Implicit lens
Explicit lens - is to keep Section 377A - to give a sense of what is morally right - Nature that provide for creation of humans is through sexual union of a male and a female to produce offsprings and sustain the human civilisation.
Implicit lens - is to recognise that certain people suffered from illness and cannot behave like normal humans of a man or a woman to engage in normal sexual activity for the reproduction of offsprings.
And thus should not enforce Section 377A on them if they carried out their activity quietly in private.
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
(1) The Explicit lens (is the Wisdom lens) - to prevent the invocation of Universal Law of Karma - to instill what is morally, nature right.
(2) The Implicit lens (is the Compassion lens) - to sympathise with the illness that some man and women inherit - and not prosecute them for which they have no control of.
But if treatment has become available, help must be granted to coax them to get treatment to heal the deviant tendency and get well
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
(1) The Explicit lens - will deter normal human of man and woman from committing abnormal sexual activities.
This will prevent heterosexual male and female from experimenting homosexual and lesbian activities - moving into deviant anti-nature behavior.
This will be in line with other sexual deviant behavior - by preventing moral decadence that go against Nature.
(2) The Implicit lens - certify that certain individual man and woman indeed has illness in sexual orientation by medical profession.
Regular treatment is also implied to help such individual in mental and physical healing - that hopefully one day, they will be able to get well.
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Vincent Tan
Here we go again. Overblown same sex attraction issue of 0.5-1% of population disrupting the peace, harmony and cohesiveness of society.
Ivy Goh
‘Law and Home Affairs Minister K Shanmugam had said it is up to Singapore's society to decide which direction it wants to take on gay sex legislation’. BUT there is still no referendum for SG citizens to settle this issue once and for all. Whatever the outcome of a referendum, the law should be applicable to both male and female to be fair.
Ricky Lim
https://chn.ge/2NArcGF
Close to 100,000 have signed petition to keep the Section 377A.
Not sure if a referendum - that will waste taxpayer's time and money is neccessary or not.
Moreover, Minister of Law mention that this Section 377A can be kept, repeal or amended by the Parliament - not by the Court.
As Court - will only make judgement based on the law make by Parliament.
Quite likely that this case will be thrown out.
Close to 100,000 have signed petition to keep the Section 377A.
Not sure if a referendum - that will waste taxpayer's time and money is neccessary or not.
Moreover, Minister of Law mention that this Section 377A can be kept, repeal or amended by the Parliament - not by the Court.
As Court - will only make judgement based on the law make by Parliament.
Quite likely that this case will be thrown out.
Like · Reply · 1m · Edited
Alvin Leong
Sorry hor, the last time Singapore had a referendum was in 1962, a time when Singapore is not really Singapore. The government had not given the people the power to decide anything since then.
Alvin Leong - "The government had not given the people the power to decide anything since then."
The election is the people power to decide anything.
Electing the Government is a mandate that people give power to the Government to make decision on what is best for the people and the Country.
The election is the people power to decide anything.
Electing the Government is a mandate that people give power to the Government to make decision on what is best for the people and the Country.
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Ricky Lim
Ivy Goh - An Election campaign cost: $7.1m.
An giving time off for people to leave their jobs and business - are huge opportunity cost for the Economy to call a referendum on a "moral issue" - that can be easily determined by :- a "yes" or a "no".
The majority already voice their view.
An giving time off for people to leave their jobs and business - are huge opportunity cost for the Economy to call a referendum on a "moral issue" - that can be easily determined by :- a "yes" or a "no".
The majority already voice their view.
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Ricky Lim
A simple question is - do you want to pay more tax, gst etc - to hold a referendum - when the descision is a "yes or a no".
The Parliament is smart enough to read the signal.
The Parliament is smart enough to read the signal.
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Ivy Goh
Ricky Lim, The SMART people will tell you an electronic Citizens’ Referendum will not cost ‘S7.1m. We are in the ‘digital age’, aren’t we? but still having General Elections the old expensive way.
There were 2.5M registered voters in GE2015 and you say the ‘majority voice their view’. Was this voting done in secret? What was the majority in numbers? Or maybe you thought a Yahoo Poll on the internet open to 7.5B people on Earth represents the 2.5M registered voters.
Why call a referendum on a moral issue, you say? Because the SG Govt is amoral so, like KS says, it is up to society to decide. Get it?
You are entitled to your opinion but don't mislead others.
There were 2.5M registered voters in GE2015 and you say the ‘majority voice their view’. Was this voting done in secret? What was the majority in numbers? Or maybe you thought a Yahoo Poll on the internet open to 7.5B people on Earth represents the 2.5M registered voters.
Why call a referendum on a moral issue, you say? Because the SG Govt is amoral so, like KS says, it is up to society to decide. Get it?
You are entitled to your opinion but don't mislead others.
Ricky Lim
Ivy Goh - Do you know that voting based on digital form - is prone to hacking?
Do you know that one person can vote a few time - if hacker can manipulate online voting?
Voting based on electronic form - will bring controversy and can discredit the entire election. If someone challenge the election result - I can tell you the Government will have a hard time defending the IT system is absolutely foolproof.
Any IT experts can tell you this.
You think the change dot org poll and yahoo poll is foolproof --- I am telling you straight in the face - that there will be double counting. It is only an indication - but not foolproof.
Also many elderly will have no access to computer and will have problem using computers.
In addition, when a pandora box for 1 simple issue is to call for a referendum, then in future thousand and one issues - people will also start to call for a referendum.
Then what is the elected Government for? Must as well all issues decide by referendum - don't need Parliament.
Small small things also get so emotional - little little things also call for referendum - wasting everybody's time and money.
Do you know that one person can vote a few time - if hacker can manipulate online voting?
Voting based on electronic form - will bring controversy and can discredit the entire election. If someone challenge the election result - I can tell you the Government will have a hard time defending the IT system is absolutely foolproof.
Any IT experts can tell you this.
You think the change dot org poll and yahoo poll is foolproof --- I am telling you straight in the face - that there will be double counting. It is only an indication - but not foolproof.
Also many elderly will have no access to computer and will have problem using computers.
In addition, when a pandora box for 1 simple issue is to call for a referendum, then in future thousand and one issues - people will also start to call for a referendum.
Then what is the elected Government for? Must as well all issues decide by referendum - don't need Parliament.
Small small things also get so emotional - little little things also call for referendum - wasting everybody's time and money.
Like · Reply · 1m · Edited
Ricky Lim
US election system clone meant for the mid term election that are stress test by a group of hackers - was hack within a few hours by a whiz kid - if you are still ignorant.
Also digital voting will have the following problem :-
(1) someone at home can vote on your behalf
(2) someone at home can coax you against your wish to vote otherwise
- they are subjected to bias - and will have a hard time defending in Court when challenge about the validity of the election.
Also digital voting will have the following problem :-
(1) someone at home can vote on your behalf
(2) someone at home can coax you against your wish to vote otherwise
- they are subjected to bias - and will have a hard time defending in Court when challenge about the validity of the election.
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
And if you do paper voting, the cost is :-
(1) Direct election $7.1 million
(2) Workforce Manhour lost assume $100 per day x 2 million workforce = $200 million
(3) Business loss (GDP $700 billion / 365 days) = $1.9 billion GDP loss
(4) Social cost of getting elderly and handicap to vote
Imagine a referendum of "yes" or "no" - cost so much --- and suka suka call a referendum.
(1) Direct election $7.1 million
(2) Workforce Manhour lost assume $100 per day x 2 million workforce = $200 million
(3) Business loss (GDP $700 billion / 365 days) = $1.9 billion GDP loss
(4) Social cost of getting elderly and handicap to vote
Imagine a referendum of "yes" or "no" - cost so much --- and suka suka call a referendum.
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Ricky Lim
As an indication done by change dot org poll that is still on going as at 12/9/2018 at 835pm
(1) those who support repeal 377A - 18,685 poll.
(2) those who support keeping 377A - 96,418 poll ---- still in the majority.
(1) those who support repeal 377A - 18,685 poll.
(2) those who support keeping 377A - 96,418 poll ---- still in the majority.
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Alvin Leong
Ricky Lim There is a difference between an election and a referendum. An election leads to a government which covers many issues. A referendum is the government asking the people what they want about a specific issue, which may or may not be covered in the original manifesto.
Either way, I do not feel the need to repel 377A, therefore no need for a referendum. But that is just my personal view. I was just responding to Ivy's original post regarding a referendum and the fact that there was never one in Singapore since 1962.
Either way, I do not feel the need to repel 377A, therefore no need for a referendum. But that is just my personal view. I was just responding to Ivy's original post regarding a referendum and the fact that there was never one in Singapore since 1962.
Alvin Leong - I understood what is the purpose of an election and what is a referendum.
But a referendum must not be easily called - unless is to do with the fate of a Nation - eg. to merge or to be independence.
Brexit referendum was called - to remain or leave EU - and now is a mess - and people want to call for a 2nd referendum.
If referendum is called for any controversial issue - it undermine the sovereignty of a Parliament - as Government are elected in the 1st place as mandate by the people to govern.
Imagine many controversial issues - people suka suka call for referendum - then governing Singapore become a big mess.
eg. CPF - call referendum
HDB 99 years lease - call referendum
GST - call referendum
FT, job issue - call referendum etc etc etc.
Then why do we have a democratic Government and Paliament - must as well all issue also call referendum to govern Singapore - Government only act as a middleman to count votes for referendum --- then Singapore will be in a deep shit --- as "people" may not have all the wisdom to run a Government.
Then Singapore can no longer call a democratic republic.
Singapore will be called a People Referendum Government.
And also calling one referendum to vote - cost a big bomb - in terms of time, money and opportunity cost.
But a referendum must not be easily called - unless is to do with the fate of a Nation - eg. to merge or to be independence.
Brexit referendum was called - to remain or leave EU - and now is a mess - and people want to call for a 2nd referendum.
If referendum is called for any controversial issue - it undermine the sovereignty of a Parliament - as Government are elected in the 1st place as mandate by the people to govern.
Imagine many controversial issues - people suka suka call for referendum - then governing Singapore become a big mess.
eg. CPF - call referendum
HDB 99 years lease - call referendum
GST - call referendum
FT, job issue - call referendum etc etc etc.
Then why do we have a democratic Government and Paliament - must as well all issue also call referendum to govern Singapore - Government only act as a middleman to count votes for referendum --- then Singapore will be in a deep shit --- as "people" may not have all the wisdom to run a Government.
Then Singapore can no longer call a democratic republic.
Singapore will be called a People Referendum Government.
And also calling one referendum to vote - cost a big bomb - in terms of time, money and opportunity cost.
Like · Reply · 1m · Edited
Lam Jayson
Ricky Lim because the people who sign the petition are rednecks who do not understand constitutional challenges are not swayed by popular polls.. it's like saying I can poll for judges to decide court cases to my preference
Lam Jayson - Let the Government and the Parliament decide.
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Alvin Leong
Ricky Lim Brexit is going fine, no deal will be the best outcome for the UK as it will cut all ties with the useless EU. Please don't believe the nonsense pushed out by the remoners, they are just unhappy that the result is not what they want, so just want another referendum (and another) until they get the result they want. Quite similar to SNP and their Scottish independence referendum, first they said it was a "once in a life time" referendum, now they changed their mind to "the life time of a parliament" (i.e. 5 years). People will always be unhappy and want reruns of referendums until they get the answer they want.
If there is an unnecessary referendum for 377A, which I expect the keep camp to win easily, the repel camp will still hang around to make noise endlessly one lah.
If there is an unnecessary referendum for 377A, which I expect the keep camp to win easily, the repel camp will still hang around to make noise endlessly one lah.
Ricky Lim
Alvin Leong - Anyway Brexit is not our problem though the referendum is a mess.
As for why now 377A is call into question is because :-
(1) England, Wales, Scotland (not N Ireland) - has repeal the gay law.
(2) India has repeal the gay law.
- the West that embrace Christianity and Catholics - that ban gay are increasingly supporting gay.
This has become a pressure point on Asian Society.
But does this require a referendum to decide a moral issue - you don't think is necessary, I personally also think is not necessary - because the majority of the people in Singapore is not for it.
It is easy for the Government and the Parliament to decide.
It is not life and death of a Nation - that Constitutionally require a referendum to decide.
As for why now 377A is call into question is because :-
(1) England, Wales, Scotland (not N Ireland) - has repeal the gay law.
(2) India has repeal the gay law.
- the West that embrace Christianity and Catholics - that ban gay are increasingly supporting gay.
This has become a pressure point on Asian Society.
But does this require a referendum to decide a moral issue - you don't think is necessary, I personally also think is not necessary - because the majority of the people in Singapore is not for it.
It is easy for the Government and the Parliament to decide.
It is not life and death of a Nation - that Constitutionally require a referendum to decide.
Like · Reply · 7m
Lish Is Away
We need another law enforcement:
When a man goes to a female toilet, he can be charged with peeping offence. However, when a gay man goes to male toilet, there is no enforcement of law to charge the gay man for peeping offence. As a straight guy, my human right to entitlement of a safe toilet is not protected.
When a man goes to a female toilet, he can be charged with peeping offence. However, when a gay man goes to male toilet, there is no enforcement of law to charge the gay man for peeping offence. As a straight guy, my human right to entitlement of a safe toilet is not protected.
Wu Jian Hao
No...you think they will give up and forget if they lose the referrendum??
They will try again with different strategy. Next time I think they will attack religion with fake news to form terrible image of religion because they know their biggest hurdle is religion. Like in the west, they made decades effort to paint christianity in bad light, then after all "ready" they strike hard and succeed.
They will try again with different strategy. Next time I think they will attack religion with fake news to form terrible image of religion because they know their biggest hurdle is religion. Like in the west, they made decades effort to paint christianity in bad light, then after all "ready" they strike hard and succeed.
Like · Reply · 16m
Wu Jian Hao
Ivy Goh
Bhutan did no referrendum. Top Happy also.
Referrendum is when the parliament, gov, and court can't decide, deeply split, don't know how to assess a situation, non-functional and should concern a big and essential changes of a country that they resort to people to decide directly.
It is not to solve a minority's sexual issue which feeling is overly sensitive and want to take all for themself, ignorant that other parts of society also sacrifice some major things for greater good of society.
The analogy is like a couple who insist they want something during holiday, so full of their ownself and make big big commotion so that the whole group tour must vote who should go back to hotel first, who to wait on bus, etc.
Bhutan did no referrendum. Top Happy also.
Referrendum is when the parliament, gov, and court can't decide, deeply split, don't know how to assess a situation, non-functional and should concern a big and essential changes of a country that they resort to people to decide directly.
It is not to solve a minority's sexual issue which feeling is overly sensitive and want to take all for themself, ignorant that other parts of society also sacrifice some major things for greater good of society.
The analogy is like a couple who insist they want something during holiday, so full of their ownself and make big big commotion so that the whole group tour must vote who should go back to hotel first, who to wait on bus, etc.
Like · Reply · 15m
Suzanne Leong
Ricky Lim Right,
Change. Org sent email to some people who signed Paul P petition to thank them for repealing 377A...and some friends complained when they clicked to sign Paul P's petition, it jumped to the petition for the repeal... This is so weird, wonder what is going on??? How to go electronic voting when such funny thing is happening already???
Change. Org sent email to some people who signed Paul P petition to thank them for repealing 377A...and some friends complained when they clicked to sign Paul P's petition, it jumped to the petition for the repeal... This is so weird, wonder what is going on??? How to go electronic voting when such funny thing is happening already???
Ricky Lim
Suzanne Leong -
The email is a phishing URL site to redirect to repeal page to vote for repeal.
Someone could also hack the website of keep webpage by inserting a SQL injection to redirect to the repeal page.e.
The keep webpage need to do strong validation to prevent SQL injection for redirection.
That is why the electronic voting is not foolproof and subject to hacking.
I notice another loophole is there that can allow double voting - but i am not going to say what it is - as someone may misuse it.
The email is a phishing URL site to redirect to repeal page to vote for repeal.
Someone could also hack the website of keep webpage by inserting a SQL injection to redirect to the repeal page.e.
The keep webpage need to do strong validation to prevent SQL injection for redirection.
That is why the electronic voting is not foolproof and subject to hacking.
I notice another loophole is there that can allow double voting - but i am not going to say what it is - as someone may misuse it.
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
BTW, i have notice 2 repeal web site in change dot org and 1 keep web site.
2 web site could be real.
(1) keep web site - the current poll about 98,000.
(2) repeal web site - the current poll about 18,000
the other repeal web site - the current poll about 28,000 - could be the phishing site that steal and redirect from the keep site.
The keep web site - could have shot past the 100,000 vote poll - but the hacking phishing redirection could have stop it from getting 100,000 vote.
Thus this change dot org can only give an indication that majority want to keep the Section 377A - but cannot be submit as evidence in Court - because it has already been hacked.
You see - someone is trying to discredit the entire voting system in the change dot org.
So how to trust the digitial electronic system - as it is prone to hacking.
Court will discredit the entire voting system.
2 web site could be real.
(1) keep web site - the current poll about 98,000.
(2) repeal web site - the current poll about 18,000
the other repeal web site - the current poll about 28,000 - could be the phishing site that steal and redirect from the keep site.
The keep web site - could have shot past the 100,000 vote poll - but the hacking phishing redirection could have stop it from getting 100,000 vote.
Thus this change dot org can only give an indication that majority want to keep the Section 377A - but cannot be submit as evidence in Court - because it has already been hacked.
You see - someone is trying to discredit the entire voting system in the change dot org.
So how to trust the digitial electronic system - as it is prone to hacking.
Court will discredit the entire voting system.
Like · Reply · 1m
Ace Lim
as Agreed with Ricky Lim. please post your above comment in main reply if it is needed to.
This sort of polling website usually will not be fully secured with firewalls and is prone to hackers activities.
Even a banking website can be phished, so what can be foolproof in IT? let alone a non profit poll site?
This sort of polling website usually will not be fully secured with firewalls and is prone to hackers activities.
Even a banking website can be phished, so what can be foolproof in IT? let alone a non profit poll site?
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