REACH 259 - View on roadmap to Endemic (SK)
27 July 2021 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[10:53 am, 27/07/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors,
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[10:57 am, 27/07/2021] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢
Co-chairs of the COVID-19 Multi-Ministry Taskforce gave ministerial statements in Parliament yesterday (July 26) that provided updates on the Government's roadmap towards living with COVID-19.
Minister Ong Ye Kung noted that the recent return to Phase 2 (Heightened Alert) does not change the Government’s roadmap towards treating COVID-19 as endemic and living normally with the coronavirus, and that the Government is committed to the path of normalcy and living with COVID-19 and restrictions will be lifted in a "controlled" manner.
More than $2 billion will also be set aside to support workers and businesses grappling with the impact of tighter Covid-19 restrictions since May, Finance Minister Lawrence Wong announced on Monday (July 26) as he said the latest period of heightened alert is not expected to derail Singapore's economic recovery.
📢 What are your views on the Government support measures for those whose livelihoods are affected by the latest Phase 2(HA) measures? (We would love to listen to those who are directly affected). What do you think of the Government’s roadmap to manage COVID-19 as an endemic?
Health Minister Ong Ye Kung added that Singapore’s collective psychology from also has to shift from always focusing on infection numbers to rightfully focusing on the number of people with severe illnesses, and a greater acceptance of differentiated safe management measures for those who are vaccinated. As COVID-19 becomes endemic, Singapore must also shift its healthcare protocols, such as allowing more COVID-19 cases who are vaccinated and who show mild or no symptoms to be directly admitted to community care facilities instead of going first to hospitals.
Minister Lawrence Wong added that Singapore will review some COVID-19 restrictions early next month, but any easing of measures will be only for vaccinated people who are “much better protected” against the virus.
👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-endemic-roadmap-phase-2-heightened-alert-ong-ye-kung-15298080
👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/over-2-billion-being-provided-to-support-workers-businesses-affected-by-two
👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-cases-vaccinated-may-not-need-hospitalisation-15298008
👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-phase-2-ha-early-august-vaccinated-travel-lawrence-wong-15298016
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[11:03 am, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Minister answer to the call for Mandatory Vaccination.
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/not-yet-time-consider-making-covid-19-vaccine-mandatory-ong-ye-kung
[11:03 am, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Mandatory vaccination may eventually be called when we go endemic.
But this is contingent upon World direction according to the Minister.
[11:06 am, 27/07/2021] +Timothy Low: Some of my young adult friends felt it was unfair for those who are fully vaccinated to be allowed for dine-in and gym access in August, as they were the last to be called for vaccination
[11:06 am, 27/07/2021] +Ken Loh: Err now can take Liao… and only 1 month later why need to complaint 🙄
[11:07 am, 27/07/2021] +Timothy Low: And also we need to consider if it will be discriminatory for those are unable to be vaccinated due to medical reasons
[11:07 am, 27/07/2021] +Timothy Low: If they can't be vaccinated, does that mean they will have to be penalised till the end of their lives? How do we work around this?
[11:07 am, 27/07/2021] +Ken Loh: This one seems hard to settle… the non vaccinated one will use them as excuse also
[11:08 am, 27/07/2021] +Timothy Low: But overall im supportive for differential treatment for those vaccinated vs non-vaccinated
[11:08 am, 27/07/2021] +Ken Loh: Think government try to bring in non MRNA version for this group will take time
[11:08 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: I also think its not fair that they are born later than me and do less than 2.5yrs NS. How like that?
Really worrying sign when these are the the "next generation"... All about I, ME, MYSELF.... wonder what went wrong
[11:09 am, 27/07/2021] +Timothy Low: unwilling vs unable to take the vaccinate - how do we differentiate them?
[11:09 am, 27/07/2021] +Ken Loh: That’s why say hard
[11:14 am, 27/07/2021] +Walker: got a Quarantine Order from MOH, kept trying to call the hotline, the hotline keeps saying the line engaged for the day. seems very ridiculous
[11:15 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: This is not about penalising anyone, rather, it is about keeping everyone safe. Keeping the unvaccinated away from the rest is to protect them. Why is it so difficult to understand?
Anyway, my take is either (1) We get a further breakthrough in vaccine technology and/or therapeutics so that we are all finally, and truly safe from the virus, or (2) the virus mutates and a variant that is more deadly to unvaccinated people emerges.
[11:17 am, 27/07/2021] +Timothy Low: it work both ways, depending on your argument and point of view
[11:19 am, 27/07/2021] +Jack: Yes., it so difficult to call the hotline.. leave phone number only call back a week later
[11:22 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: Yes definitely. Depending on whether the person places higher priority on his/her own needs over others, or is one who can see that the greater good may involve some temporary inconvenience to him/herself. ie. selfish or selfless
[11:23 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Is running through the normal vaccine approval process still on the cards?
Perhaps they feel it would be more appropriate to allow the vaccine to run through due process before being mandatory?
It's a rock and a hard place, because that would take time, but it would mean a change of status for the certification of the vaccine.
[11:25 am, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
1. I agree with the roadmap towards endemic.
2. It is a cautious step by step reopening - not a Big Bang.
3. My only concern is those elderly who are medically eligible to vaccinate - but refuse to vaccinate out of fear that the vaccines will harm them out of misguided fear.
4. Thus unvaccinated elderly and young people below the age of 12 who not yet can be vaccinated face the risk of infection - if we go endemic.
5. Only when everyone is vaccinated including the young one below 12 have been vaccinated - then going endemic mode where almost all restrictions are lifted except the mask - will be safe for everyone.
6. Remember, when All are vaccinated, only then everyone will be safe.
[11:26 am, 27/07/2021] +Boon: Agreed. This sort of social discrimination should be avoided, and better ways be though of.
[11:28 am, 27/07/2021] +Boon: Or people having the empathy to understand there are different circumstances that can prevent people from being vaccinated; and to think how to close the gaps with these segments. This would be a more thoughtful approach.
[11:29 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: is already causing some form of dissent at some countries patially is due to their freedom and personnel culture
[11:29 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: thus vaccination discrimination is not something on paper but already on the ground
[11:29 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: while oone wave had not settle we are in another wave of discriination that will cause more social unrest when the break point comes
[11:30 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: to make such distinction works here VERY VERY VERY VERY CLEAR lines have to be drawn else it will be as messy and confusing to the public again
[11:30 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Agree. Discrimination in any form cannot be good.
[11:31 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: Understanding and empathising does not change the fact that it is unsafe for the Unvaccinated to be engaging in activities as if they are vaccinated.
Another way of looking it at it, is saying, we will not allow people who have not earned a driving license, to operate/drive a car. Is that discrimination? Or is that keeping everyone safe?
[11:31 am, 27/07/2021] +Alvin Lim: My suggestion is to allow (if possible) separate groups vax and non-vax for events or dining
[11:31 am, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Will covid take a pity on those unvaccinated because of medically ineligible - and not infect them?
If not, by nature of science, they can't be mixed with the rest that are vaccinated - because once the unvaccinated catch the infection - they will develop serious illness.
This is science - nothing to do with discrimination.
[11:32 am, 27/07/2021] +Alvin Lim: This might sound counter-intuitive at first but in long run should help
[11:32 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Vaccinated also can be infected. I think you mean in terms of severe illness.
[11:34 am, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Yes vaccinated can be infected but does not develop serious illness.
Unvaccinated either develop serious illness in ICU, need oxygen support and even death.
To-date 18 are still in oxygen support, 2 in ICU, 37 death.
All unvaccinated.
[11:34 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: Learn to differentiate between discrimination and recognition
[11:36 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: if can learnt and ack we will not have recently that race discrimination thing ...
[11:36 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: not to rebutt you but is hard to get certain theories into the skulls of resident here espically when some embraced what they believe so whole heartedly on topics like is my decision is mi rights is my XXXXXXX
[11:37 am, 27/07/2021] +Timothy Low: Perhaps in terms of dine in we can take a more balanced approach: 5-unlimited pax for those vaccinated; max 2 for those who are unvaccinated
[11:37 am, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
In endemic, everyone must be vaccinated.
This is science.
Don't try argument on the ground of discrimination - because virus pandemic will exploit unsound argument and start an outbreak.
Note all previous virus pandemic are defeated by 100% vaccination - such as smallpox measles mumps rubella diphtheria polio etc.
This covid pandemic eventually need 100% vaccination as it go endemic.
[11:37 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: thus if the local govt wants to follow what some of the western countries are doing by have 2 sets of people in a society
[11:37 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: we must draw up very very very very clear frame work leave no room for doubts
[11:39 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: Exactly.....and ironically, the virus does not discriminate .. which means we must recognise that there is a difference in terms of safety for both groups and act/behave accordingly to protect everyone
[11:39 am, 27/07/2021] +Timothy Low: if i am not wrong previous pandemic their vaccination are trusted technology? this mrna is a new technology so thats why some people are still doubtful
[11:40 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Yes hence I feel authorities have to wait till that process is complete.
[11:42 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: couple with the way media is reporting like do advertising and the comflicting report like how Pif was good against d varaint then isreal publish is only 30% against d varaint the next day is liek so which is which
[11:42 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: can u really blame the public
[11:42 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: We have much less resistance towards the mandatory vaccines we are required to give children at birth.
In order to even qualify for "basic rights" to education.
[11:42 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: who are we suppose to follow and take heed GOVT? PARMA COMPANIES OR WHO?
[11:43 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: while the discussion is always Vaccine is a must
[11:43 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: why not look at the other any and surrounding factors why people are resisiting to vaccine (not to include those medically excuse)
[11:44 am, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: is not as if people are stupid enuff not to vaccine there is a common ground these group of MIA people believe in
[11:48 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: Partial and differentiated restrictions are also a form of coercion to have people - especially those who are on the fence - to be more willing to consider getting vaccinated. It is a nudge. If there is no difference in treatment, then where is the incentive/disincentive?
Besides, as I keep repeating, it is the fact that the virus is indiscriminate in who it infects, that WE, have to be more discerning and recognise the need to make choices/decisions to reflect those difference.
It is not intending to undermine any one's rights. Rather, it is to protect everyone's right to have a safe environment, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.
Like i said, you wouldn't allow someone without a driving license to drive a car on the roads for obvious reasons, then why can't you understand that keeping the unvaccinated from unrestricted access to crowds ie. higher % of asymptomatic CV19 carriers, is actually to keep the unvaccinated safe?
[11:53 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: I understand what you are trying to get at, but I think driving license is a bit different in the sense, there isn't the same stigma being created about people without driving licenses.
Consider then when a fully licensed driver causes damage or injury to another, what happens.
[11:55 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Maybe smoking zones are a more appropriate comparison.
[11:55 am, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Equally it wouldn't be fair that everyone has to wait for everyone to be vaccinated. Let's do best we can.
[11:55 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: You might want to read up about the "history/standards of medical ethics in the past"
[11:55 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Of course, a smoker can choose not to smoke and dine-in with others.
[11:55 am, 27/07/2021] +Ben: They should be able to show this on their Singpass and be exempt.
[11:56 am, 27/07/2021] +Ben: 👍
[11:56 am, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Singpass
[11:57 am, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: I think reading up on the history of medical ethics and standards and how the pharmaceutical industry developed and evolved will help
[11:58 am, 27/07/2021] +Ben: It's not social discrimination. They made a choice that puts everyone else at risk, and damages our economy. How is that right?
[11:58 am, 27/07/2021] +Ben: If they were forced not to take the vaccine and then excluded, that would be very bad.
[11:59 am, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
But if everyone want to wait, then we will never go into endemic - and the unvaccinated if infected will get very ill.
It is a chicken and egg problem.
New disease definitely, medicine is new
If wait 3 to 4 years then take vaccination, 4 million in the world have died.
How many millions more people need to die before people think is safe to get the vaccination?
[11:59 am, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Yes, those that cannot should be able to show a 'green pass' like they have in Israel. The green pass is for those medically unable, those who have removed and those who are vaccinated. This way there is privacy and no discrimination.
[11:59 am, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: It is complicated situation. It seems to be heading this direction:
1. Fully vaccinated (approved vaccine)
2. Unable to be vaccinated (exempt)
3. Chose another unapproved vaccine
4. Choose not to vaccinate.
Well there is a disparity in 2 and 3, if we approach from a medical viewpoint .
2 cannot take, but free to mingle, no penalty
3 intention is to protect, want to take vax, but chose wrong one, penalty: cannot mingle.
But who is protecting actually others more?
I think we need to get over this problem.
[11:59 am, 27/07/2021] +Ben: *recovered , not removed :)
[0:00 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Before we can talk about segregating for PUBLIC GOOD
[0:00 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: 2 is not by choice, 3 is by choice that is the difference
[0:01 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Then we are punishing by discrimination and not recgonition of the nature and danger of the virus
[0:01 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: The problem, in my opinion, is that too many stupid people now think they are smart.
And a lot of this has to do with the availability of misinformation through the internet/social media platforms, which stupid people mistake for information because it is easier to understand the fact that they do not understand the underlying science/technology.
It is amazing how adding just a little bit of simple and commonly identified facts/knowledge, mixed into a whole load of rubbish, can make people believe that shit is gold.
[0:01 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: I would posit 2 is more dangerous than 3
[0:01 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: But yet 2 is allowed to mingle and not 3.
Then it's not longer a medical or public safety issue isn't it
[0:02 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: I don't understand this. It's not punishing. They have the same access as everyone else. It's a consequence.
[0:02 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: It's a tough call... For sure I'd want nothing more than overall good
[0:02 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: But 2 is not by choice and very few people cannot take the vaccine. Almost negligible.
[0:03 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: 3 is by choice and it seems 10% may opt for this. That half a million people putting everyone else at risk.
[0:03 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Make things simple.
1. Vaccinated free access
2. Not vaccinated whether refuse or medically ineligible - restricted access - for the sake of scientific facts that they will get seriously ill if infected
[0:04 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: The unapproved shot is being offered.
[0:04 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Not right to restrict those who cannot take the vaccine. Such a tiny number it will make no difference if they are unrestricted.
[0:05 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: It's not being officially offered, it's just not prohibited privately.
[0:05 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Based on scientific facts.
Are those unapproved vaccines effective, if not then it is as good as no vaccination.
[0:05 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: I think lines are blurred.
But Danny did offer one solution
[0:05 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: .
[0:06 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Yes let's hear from SG assessment of other vaccines which are being explored
[0:06 pm, 27/07/2021] +Suma pamu: Just to check if something happens after vaccination, is there a free treatment,!
Sorry i have no idea (read some where it's free, but don't know more details) Like is there time frame, or is there any exclusions?
[0:06 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: No one stimatising anyone. Do we place a mark on the unvaccinated? Do we make them wear a badge/insignia so that everyone else can identify them? NO we don't.
All we are saying is, for your own sake, recognise that if you are unvaccinated, and you catch a the virus, then, unlike the vaccinated, there is high chance you are going to fall very ill and might even die. And one way to remain healthy, while awaiting the development of a suitable vaccine - which by the way is taking place at the fastest pace in history - is to stay away from crowds who may be asymptomatic carriers of the virus.
These vaccinated and asymptomatic carriers of the CV19 also do not have a mark, or wear a badge/insignia on their sleeves for you to easily identify them.
[0:08 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: As for your analogy of the fully licensed driver causes damage or injury to another ... similarly, vaccinated persons can be infected, spread, and fall ill as well. Thanks for emphasising my point.
[0:08 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: free treatment is up to the medical doctor who assess you ... quite a grey area espically if you do not have a full and detail health record to prove u do not have something against what they found out
[0:08 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: but again do not let this stop you
[0:09 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: is your body and health if you think something is screw up in you please go see a doc for their advise
[0:15 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Right. All can fall ill, be infected, die. Regardless of vaccination.
In this case, both sides of the same coin.
I'm not going into anti-vaxx and I'm not anti-vaxx.
[0:16 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: Don’t argue for argument’s sake then. Your statement is ignoring the fact that the unvaccinated have a higher chance of catching the virus and falling seriously ill compared to the vaccinated.
[0:17 pm, 27/07/2021] +Suma pamu: This is the Main issue then, with out addressing this issue i guess it's hard to convince seniors.
Many already had Pre existing illness.
I am still waiting for my second dose.👍🏽
Only Thing in this pandemic which can convince people is Truth
The truths about Deaths (regardless of ore existing conditions or not, if they conatcted Covid and died, it should classify as Covid death( i am not aware of WHO recommending or Sg counting..)
My view i am just saying.
Nothing but truth
Truth about Vaccine
How and why It's really important, how Bad the Covid Desease is ,(myself i watched Newd about all Major countries deaths and How many people Died)
As in Singapore realatively very low death rate, also no news about how severe people are suffering, i guess few might think it's just like flu and No vaccine required.
Sometimes no choice but to make them Understand that No choice but to vaccinate.
So Truth hard truths need to published
(Whether it's creats Panic or not again another issue, but To make more people convince for vaccine, they need to understand the Severity of the Desease.
That's what lacking here in Singapore
[0:17 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Anyway if our aim is to achieve herd immunity which is supposed to he effective, whether an individual is vaxxed or not should not matter in the grand scheme of things. Which is why I'm uncomfortable with the segregation.
[0:18 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Herd immunity in endemic is 100% vaccination.
[0:18 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: I just highlighted the driving license analogy as not accurate because of stigma being created. That's all. But it's ok, no analogy is perfect.
[0:19 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: is a very contentious point, there is no right or wrong answer. Like i suggest last week one of the way to get more people to vacinne (even if it is an experimental drug under for emergency use), is to give free health inspection to those still worried and get the real experts to interpret the results. U go to any gp ask them ehh can i vaccine how? the answer is quite 50% also cos they are GP and might do not have one's full health record
[0:19 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Oh was not aware goal posts shifted. Well for now G has said they are not going to make it so.
[0:19 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Mandatory I mean.
[0:20 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: that will give the society more confident to go vaccine
[0:20 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: It matters because it has been shown that the unvaccinated are reservoirs for virus mutations.
[0:20 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
80% not good enough.
As more than 1.6 million unvaccinated - and still will trigger a major outbreak.
If no differentiated treatment, periodic outbreak will happen.
[0:21 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: anyway if we are not listening to WHO advise is the country got to pay for our own action ... WHO did mentioned even ifyou vaccine up to 99% hoping to open up the country is a wrong intent
[0:21 pm, 27/07/2021] +Suma pamu: When comes to Vaccine, trying to convince by talking about economy or normal Life etc etc does not make sense.
People Who doesn't fear about getting Covid, (and death) Fear about vaccine,
So deal one with the other.
There is no other choice. Better not to bring about Other things like Economy and Things to convince People to vaccinate
Start telling truth openly and widely Everything will be Ok.
People get fear about desease and they opt for vaccine.
[0:21 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: cos there are varies reason still to bring the country down due to present of the current and future variants ... note 3 weeks ago tWHO is still studying on on how Delta works
[0:22 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: last week UK already notify there could be a new variant found on
[0:22 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
In endemic, mandatory vaccination - it has to be 100% vaccination.
[0:23 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: globally there is no one leading the motion , every country is doing something by themselves, pharma is on the other hand like aggressively marketing their product, WHO seems to be left unheard ......
[0:24 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: while society are in fighting ......
[0:24 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ah Heng: there is no balance ground due to uncertainties in various aspect
[0:25 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Goal post not shifted
80% target doesn't mean good enough for endemic.
Because > 1.6 million unvaccinated will still trigger a big outbreak.
Minister say, once in endemic mode, countries will make vaccination compulsory ie. 100 Vaccination.
All past pandemic is 100% vaccination.
[0:32 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: I'm outdated. The term "herd immunity" still in my consciousness.
[0:32 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: But 100%... Diff ballgame indeed
[0:34 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Herd immunity doesn't mean 100% vaccination.
It is sufficient enough to prevent host jumping - but does not protect occasional outbreak among the unvaccinated.
Only 100% vaccination can protect everyone.
[0:35 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Smallpox measles mumps rubella diphtheria polio etc all 100% vaccination.
Singapore doesn't encounter any such diseases ever since.
[0:35 pm, 27/07/2021] +Rama: https://mothership.sg/2021/07/travel-vaccinated/
[0:35 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: I'm aware herd immunity is not 100% but was under the impression it was touted as a big milestone towards more "normal" activities.
Which did not include vaccine passport like measures.
[0:36 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Vaccine more effective that's all
[0:36 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: The way they are saying this corona virus, vaccine also cannot prevent transmission.
[0:36 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: 100% still will have infection
[0:36 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Herd immunity need differentiated treatment.
100% vaccination no differentiated treatment.
[0:38 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Until we reached 100% vaccination then we will know.
The rest of past pandemic is a good guide.
[0:38 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Maybe not all diseases and their vaccines are the same...
MMR well controlled.
Many still die from normal flu. Even vaccinated?
It's good to compare and support our understanding nevertheless.
[0:39 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
How many people vaccinated for normal flu?
Less than 50%?
[0:39 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Yes agree to study past pandemics. But differentiation is new ground, hence understandably the louder than normal discourse...
[0:39 pm, 27/07/2021] +REACH: Manufacturing firm, manager charged for failing to send workers for Covid-19 testing
A manufacturing firm has become the first here to be charged for not complying with rostered routine testing (RRT) requirements.
Under guidelines from the Ministry of Manpower (MOM), employers are required to schedule their foreign employees for RRT every 14 days to screen for Covid-19 infection.
More: https://str.sg/33tM
[0:40 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: My view is, no differentiation for normal flu mah.
[0:40 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Don't want differentiated treatment - then go for 100% vaccination.
[0:41 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Normal flu don't cause long covid.
Covid do to 50% of those infected without vaccination.
[0:41 pm, 27/07/2021] +Alvin Lim: Agree with Danny. 100% vaccination
[0:42 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: That's one of the issues here. About the differentiation.
Dengue also lost in the limelight for a while. But last year or 2019 was horrendous numbers as well.
[0:42 pm, 27/07/2021] +Alvin Lim: But need to have a few years of vaccinated results iirc to mandate it as mandatory
[0:43 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Dengue like normal flu don't cause long covid.
[0:43 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Yeah, I think actually influenza as well, maybe lesser degree.
[0:43 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Everyone get flu.
So do I.
But no one has long covid.
[0:53 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: There is differentiation in every facet of life... even meals. Treatment/service/food you get depends on where you dine, which in turn is quite dependent on your ability to pay.
Where you get into NUS Medical faculty depends on your ability to demonstrate an above average aptitude and attitude for the course.
Whether you drown in open waters, depends on your ability to swim.
And whether you fall seriously ill and/or die from CV19 depends on your body's ability to win the fight against the virus.
So why has recognising different levels of capabilities/abilities to gauge suitability, suddenly become discriminatory?
[0:57 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Is it really fair to draw those comparisons though
[0:59 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: The general public was fixated with CV19 ... but the G didn't lose sight of dengue risks....
https://www.nea.gov.sg/media/news/news/index/nea-brings-forward-national-dengue-prevention-campaign-and-rolls-out-additional-new-tools-to-combat-dengue-with-increasing-evidence-of-a-sustained-switch-in-dengue-virus-serotype
Extract:
Status of Current Efforts for Dengue Prevention
7 NEA, together with the various agencies and other stakeholders represented in the Inter-Agency Dengue Task Force (IADTF), including Town Councils, have stepped up checks leading up to the traditional peak dengue season....
[1:00 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: why is it unfair? At the most basic level, isn't the decisions/restrictions based on one's ability to combat the risks?
[1:13 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Agree there is differentiation in society. There is a difference to the nature or degree of it.
To use your dining analogy, to me it may be more like,
You want to spend 100 or 10 dollars today sir? 10 dollars? Please sit at the hidden corner. This section is for big spenders.
[1:14 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Can I say that a school should differentiate between a student from a good family to a broken one when considering admission?
[1:14 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: I feel there are different and appropriate approach for different things.
[1:18 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: First you have the aptitude to enrol medical degree. Fair enough.
You have no money to pay. That's what scholarships are for. I don't think people will feel as badly about the existence of differentiation by scholarship to the segregation by vaccine passport.
So I'd rather re-consider it for better solutions.
That's all.
[1:20 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/26/nyregion/covid-vaccine-ny-ca-mandatory.html New York and California mandate compulsory vaccination for all government workers and healthcare workers.
Else face termination.
Even US get tough on vaccination.
[1:21 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: The politically correct answer is "No".
But we know in reality, is that some environments, not just school, is more suitable for one over the other. Choosing the correct environment that best enables the child to realise his/her full potential - and this includes not just subject/curriculum - will result in an overall better outcome for the child.
Anyway, enough digression, I am sure given the interest expressed by other participants here, the SG education system will likely be discussed here.
[1:23 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Statement by Prime Minister Bennett Following Meeting of the Corona Cabinet
The Prime Minister of Israel
22 July at 22:00 ·
Prime Minister Naftali Bennett issued the following statement to the media last night:
"Good evening. I have chosen to speak with you this evening because we are at a decisive moment that will determine how our country will look in the coming period. It is in our hands to choose whether to act responsibly and have an open and free country, or to stick our head in the sand and – Heaven forbid – bring about endless lockdowns, again.
Our goal is clear: To safeguard health and daily routine, to maintain the Israeli economy, properly open the school year and safeguard public health. It is possible.
The first waves of the coronavirus cost us 6,430 dead, approximately 200 days of lockdown, the loss of a school year and severe economic harm.
The world is currently in the eye of the storm of the Delta pandemic and the entire world is turning red. Even the Olympics, for the first time in history, are being held without spectators.
The easiest thing for me would be to close down the country; however, our compass is different at the moment: We want to have an open and safe country. We are conducting this campaign responsibly, with consideration and on the basis of facts and data.
First, what is the difference between the coronavirus pandemic and the Delta pandemic? Delta patients carry, in their bodies, 1,000 times the viral load and Delta multiplies and spreads much quicker than the original coronavirus.
If it was possible to block the original coronavirus with vaccines alone, in the Delta wave, the government has built a plan with three layers of protection: The vaccines layer, the layer of protecting the older population and the layer of masks.
First, the vaccines layer.
Our challenge is clear: That all Israelis who can get vaccinated – will go to get vaccinated. Every citizen aged 12 and older who has no health impediment to getting vaccinated –
Go get vaccinated.
Go get vaccinated.
I want to insist on one point: There are many countries in which there are not enough vaccines for the population and the public is crying out. Here, the Government of Israel has invested billions so that vaccines will be available everywhere in the country.
And yet there are still one million Israelis who simply refuse to get vaccinated. Even for young people over age 12, we have seen to a continuity of the necessary stocks of vaccines; however, there are still over 600,000 young people up to age 30 who have yet to get vaccinated.
I respect different views but there is a time and a place in which this discussion needs to stop – and it is our very lives.
The science is unequivocal: The vaccines work. They are effective and safe, almost completely for young people. For the older population, they are effective but not enough. Over one billion people around the world have already been vaccinated.
Dear citizens, those who refuse vaccines are endangering their health, those around them and the freedom of every Israeli citizen. They are endangering our freedom to work, the freedom of our children to learn and the freedom to hold celebrations with the family.
Those who refuse vaccines hurt us all because if all of us were vaccinated, we would all be able to maintain daily life. But if one million Israelis continue to not get vaccinated, this will oblige the eight million others to shut themselves in their homes.
Therefore, the Corona Cabinet decided today that as of 8 August, those who refuse vaccines will not be able to go to the cinema, the theater, the synagogue, the amusement park, the soccer game or any activity with over 100 people, indoors or out, unless they bring negative results from a coronavirus test, at their expense. Yes, they will fully bear the costs of the test.
There is no reason why the taxpayers and people who have carried out their civic duty and have been vaccinated should finance tests for those who refuse to get vaccinated.
Regarding flights, people who have been vaccinated will be able to fly to the clean countries and return; after they receive negative test results in Israel, they will be exempt from quarantine.
But on the other hand, those who refuse to get vaccinated will enter quarantine for a week, no matter what country they will have returned from. These actions will help us block the morbidity. From here, I appeal to everyone who knows someone who refuses to get vaccinated: Persuade them. Explain to them that they will not hurt others. Persuade and explain – do not give up.
The second layer is protecting the elderly and the vulnerable in Israel.
The State of Israel is currently providing the strongest protection in the world to approximately 120,000 elderly in geriatric hospitals and retirement homes. Every Israeli citizen should be proud of this exemplary action that is upholding Psalm 79:1, 'Do not cast me off in time of old age'.
Regarding the remaining elderly, who can look after themselves, they are responsible for being doubly cautious in watching themselves. Meet with the grandchildren, but outside in the open air, with masks. Just as you remember, we all look after grandmother and grandfather.
The third layer, the layer of masks, depends only on you, on us. Masks have been proven scientifically effective especially in protecting yourselves and those around you.
When two people wear masks, with all of the viral load that we mentioned, the likelihood goes down by 98%.
Therefore, every citizen must wear a mask in closed spaces. This is not a recommendation, this is a legal requirement.
My friends, in conclusion, if we get vaccinated, mind the older population and wear masks, we will overcome the Delta strain.
The coming year will be one of an economic jump forward, a year of rebuilding and of exiting the crisis. It will simply be a good year.
Thank you very much."
Video: GPO
[1:23 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Israel PM get tough on vaccination.
Either people vaccinate or face differentiated treatment.
[1:26 pm, 27/07/2021] +Joseph Ong: Yes...and the point is, given your abilities/capabilities (and circumstances) and considering the boundaries and restrictions involved, different people will have to take different actions and/or are treated differently.
So, again, non-vaccinated - regardless of whether you are an anti-vaxxer or simply because you are not suitable due to health reasons etc - there has to be a different set of guidelines/rules/restrictions that apply since not having them, sends the wrong signal that they are safe just because others are vaccinated, which we know, is untrue.
[1:29 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: In Israel's case... All those restrictions are for activities over 100 people?
[1:29 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: That line could be read differently.
[1:30 pm, 27/07/2021] +REACH: ➡️ Schools should not be a fortress but a second home: Chan Chun Sing on balancing security needs
https://str.sg/33tu
➡️ 'Reaching out for help is a sign of strength, not weakness': Chan Chun Sing
https://str.sg/33t2
➡️ Lighter exam load for national and year-end school exams to help ease stress: Chan Chun Sing
https://str.sg/33t8
➡️ Singapore needs a more caring, nurturing society, in addition to better mental health support: Chan Chun Sing
https://str.sg/33th
➡️ About 540 River Valley High School students and teachers have sought help
https://str.sg/33tm
[1:30 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Or can't go to theatres synagogues etc regardless.
[1:31 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Many Western democratic countries are getting tough on vaccination - mandatory vaccination for some functional staff and differentiated treatment for those vaccinated
[1:32 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/covid-19-macron-calls-for-unity-after-anti-vaccine-protests-15293076
France President call for unity on Mandatory Vaccination - and lash out at anti-vaxx protestors.
[1:32 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心: https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/french-lawmakers-seek-deal-on-vaccine-passports-after-protests France lawmakers pushing for vaccine passports - to dine in or visit places despite protest for privilege treatment for those who are vaccinated.
[1:32 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/time-serious-debate-vaccine-passports-110021611.html
Vaccines passport and mandatory vaccination now bring to the forefront - as a political issue when politicians and people struggle to live with covid while scrambling to reopen their economy.
[1:32 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/germans-divided-over-restrictions-for-the-unvaccinated-15294570 Germany lawmakers divided over compulsory vaccinations and differentiated treatment for vaccinated populations.
[1:34 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/thousands-anti-vaccine-protesters-gather-205542020.html
Anti-vaxx and Anti-lockdown protesters in London to protest against vaccines passport and differentiated treatment for vaccination people and unvaccinated people.
[1:36 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Moral of the story is :-
1. Get 100% vaccination - no differentiated treatment for those vaccinated.
2. If only target herd immunity, then differentiated treatment for those who are vaccinated.
Very easy to understand.
Policy should be based on science.
[1:37 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: If Israel is talking about activities over 100 people only, then it seems more generous than our rules. Of course they are much better vaccinated.
The line has to be drawn somewhere. But how severe?
E.g:
[1:38 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Since many Western countries who are democratic and prize freedom above all else and yet impose mandatory vaccination and differentiated treatment for those vaccinated - good model for Singapore to emulate!
[1:39 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
Because their public health policy - is based on science vis-a-vis the mother nature of how virus behave
[1:41 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: 👍
[1:42 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Dining in capped at 2, 5 , 8 etc. No differentiation on status, just numbers.
Even then, what is the appropriate number? There is no right answer, only better answer.
Capped at 2, lovers rejoice.
Gathering capped at 5, most families have a breather.
Capped at 8, well big multi-generational families in same household, will never have a chance to go out.
As person with 6 in my household, I live with it for the past 1.5 years. I can totally understand, especially when I think about the even larger households.
Let's hope our leaders will be armed with the right info and make the best decision for everyone.
[1:42 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Yes, just like other diseases we vaccinate against
[1:43 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
To summarize and conclude:-
1. First goal - target herd immunity of 80% - and impose differentiated treatment for those fully vaccinated.
2. Next goal, enter into endemic mode, with mandatory vaccination in mind to achieve 100% vaccination when the world is moving to do so.
Then remove differentiated treatment.
These are the Minister parliamentary statement - and I support the 2 goals
[1:44 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Children not vaccinated are excluded from school.
[1:44 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Anyone object to that?
[1:44 pm, 27/07/2021] +Thomas: 😂you made a lot of children happy
[1:45 pm, 27/07/2021] +CQ: you can only implement that if the vaccines have gone through the full approval (not the current EUA status), and they're approved for children below 12
[1:45 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Yes, but the principle is the same.
[1:46 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: I object. Till it's run iut's due course
[1:46 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: *Run its due course
[1:46 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Is the objection to getting vaccination really just about the testing?
[1:46 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: This
[1:46 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: It's been given to billions of people already
[1:46 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: How about below 12...
[1:47 pm, 27/07/2021] +CQ: billions of ADULTS. they're only just starting to expand testing on children
[1:47 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Yes
[1:47 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: I mean once it's approved for kids
[1:47 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: The point is that we do already segregate based on vaccination status.
[1:48 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: The debate is about segregating vaccinated and unvaccinated adults
[1:48 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: We already do that for kids.
[1:48 pm, 27/07/2021] +CQ: but for adults, yah, sure, differentiate where they can go what they can do for all you want. but approvals for pharma products need to go through the full approval process before they are made mandatory, because kia see.
[1:50 pm, 27/07/2021] +CQ: maybe eventually it'll become mandatory, once WHO and FDA grants full approval. but until then, all these cries of "why not made it mandatory" will just be futile cos MOH is unlikely to give that directive unless they decide to stick their necks out and be the trailblazer for once.
[1:50 pm, 27/07/2021] +~ZC: Once approved and mandatory, no point asking.
But since you are asking, not right now 😁
[1:59 pm, 27/07/2021] +Dr Farshad: +
[2:27 pm, 27/07/2021] +REACH: [Sent by Gov.sg – 27 Jul]
Vaccinations as of 25 Jul
- Received at least one dose: 4,242,505
- Completed full regimen*: 3,070,092
- % of population received 2 doses: 54%
Aged ≥ 70
- Received at least one dose: 77%
- Completed full regimen*: 72%
- Unvaccinated: 23%
Aged 60-69
- Received at least one dose: 86%
- Completed full regimen*: 82%
- Unvaccinated: 14%
Seniors - if you have not been vaccinated, please do so as soon as possible, so that you are protected and we can re-open safely.
Those aged 60 and above can walk-in at any vaccination centre, polyclinic, participating PHPC or mobile vaccination station to get vaccinated.
Go.gov.sg/moh260721
*Received both doses or one dose for recovered individuals
[2:55 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: I was just talking about adults, then we can talk about kids once they are taking it.
[2:56 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: K, then let's move on from the debate
[3:09 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: I guess gov can make it mandatory to access public facilities, dine in, and for health workers teachers etc. Or do you think other countries that are doing that are wrong to do that?
[3:12 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: If end the debate on mandatory vaccination, then the question of different rules for those unvaccinated still applies.
[3:12 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: And that is what we were all talking about
[3:19 pm, 27/07/2021] +CQ: usually the pushback are from "kids cannot be vaxxed, does it mean they cannot go anywhere cannot sit with us?", "my father got cancer cannot vax, does it mean we cannot go out to eat?" yada yada. for ease of enforcement, i'm not keen to see convoluted rules like generally 2 sit together, 5 if all vaxed, then 20 different exceptions and combinations. just once and for all, can or cannot, 2 or 5. don't try to please everyone, because it will please no one.
[3:22 pm, 27/07/2021] +CQ: even previously the "only can go out in 2s" also got a lot of questions/pushback what. need to travel with kids lah, cannot go down to the park to exercise with kids lah, then elderly parents lah...
[3:25 pm, 27/07/2021] +Ben: Exemptions are those who are medically unfit for vaccine and kids under 12. Just 2 exemptions. Not too hard?
[3:26 pm, 27/07/2021] +CQ: nono, i'm referring to that super convoluted set of rules when you can sit in groups of more than 2. the rules were announced but i don't think it ever got implemented because we came straight into P2HA
[3:45 pm, 27/07/2021] +Elena Woo: I agree with no. 4 and no. 5, babies and toddlers shd be included in the children below age of 12 as well.
[3:47 pm, 27/07/2021] +Elena Woo: Ya agree
[4:39 pm, 27/07/2021] +En: Feel more assured reading about the steps that have been taken and things that will be done moving forward. Let’s work towards a more compassionate society together 💪🏻❤️ what do you all think?
[4:53 pm, 27/07/2021] +Elena Woo: Govt shd take consideration that when the younger generation (0 months to 12 years old children) are able to vaccinate and also fully vaccinated, then we can go into endemic mode.
In the meantime, more support, work flexibility and school flexibility should be given to this group because they will become the high risk group as currently they are not eligible for vaccination, esp the delta variant is rampaging.
[4:54 pm, 27/07/2021] +Elena Woo: Work flexibility for the parents of this group of children. Because covid has long term effects, hence, if our next generation are infected are covid, it will have horrendous impact on public health in the future.
[6:00 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
1. Someone say 100% vaccination cannot effectively and completely defeated covid pandemic.
2. Similar smallpox pandemic that have similar R0 = 8 (equivalent to covid Delta variants = 8).
a. With vaccines at 95% efficacy and 100% vaccination, smallpox was eradicated in Singapore.
3. Quoting flu and dengue fever as endemic and cannot be completely eradicated is flaw because:-
a. Very little people get flu vaccination. And the current flu vaccine has very low efficacy - only 40% effective.
How to eradicate flu?
b. Practically very little get dengue fever vaccination - because it has very serious side effects and very low efficacy.
How to eradicate dengue fever?
4. But covid-19 pandemic is very similar to smallpox with :-
a. Very high efficacy vaccines at 95% - similar to smallpox vaccines. (mRNA vaccines).
b. Only 100% vaccination through mandatory vaccination can emulate the same effect of smallpox - by completely eradicating covid-19.
I am quite confident that if the current Delta variants is the predominant variants and not evolved into other more formidable strain - 100% vaccination based on R0 = 8 - will be good enough to effectively defeat Delta variants covid-19 pandemic.
[6:09 pm, 27/07/2021] +Smiley face: "Govt shd take consideration that when the younger generation (0 months to 12 years old children) are able to vaccinate and also fully vaccinated, then we can go into endemic mode.
In the meantime, more support, work flexibility and school flexibility should be given to this group because they will become the high risk group as currently they are not eligible for vaccination, esp the delta variant is rampaging." - - Elena Woo
Answer:
Moderna is presently conducting trials for age group 5-11. Pending on how positive the data, the next step is to seek approval from the USFDA and CDC which should in October. By December, perhaps, available worldwide?
[6:16 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
1. In other words, those people vaccinated with smallpox vaccines also can be infected with smallpox (like in Delta variants) because the vaccines efficacy is 95% like mRNA 95%.
2. But the moment the whole population get vaccinated, smallpox ability to infect host and jump from host to host is greatly reduced - and eventually lead to its demise in endemic.
3. Likewise in covid Delta variants - if the whole population 100% vaccination - it will also experience a similar demise in endemic.
4. Some one quoting flu and dengue fever that keep appearing and doesn't demise - is precisely because the whole population are not 100% vaccinated and the vaccines has low efficacy rate and more severe side effects.
Hence quoting flu and dengue fever to illustrate covid endemic is a flaw illustration.
5. Comparing smallpox to covid is a more apple to Apple comparison - because its R0, vaccines efficacy - and if government push 100% vaccination - the scenario will be identical.
6. Based on math and science, covid-19 like smallpox can be completely eradicated.
Unless infectious experts who have more insight - prove me wrong.
[6:26 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心:
1. Hence even though if we shoot for our 1st goal post of 80% herd immunity - we cannot be sure we can fully prevent future outbreak because 20% of 5.6 million people - 1.12 million are unvaccinated - and will still form a Trojan to incubate the covid that lead to future outbreak.
Hence 80% herd immunity still need differentiated treatment.
2. Only 100% vaccination will emulate the success of smallpox vaccination - that 100% eradicate smallpox pandemic completely.
Hence the reason why I push for and persuade mandatory vaccination.
3. Because my argument is based on math and science + empirical evidence in past smallpox pandemic.
[6:28 pm, 27/07/2021] +Suma pamu: 55 unlinked cases today..
And yday they mentioned few new clusters
But not sure whether got any school cluster or not
(As previously 2 students same class got infected...no update on them)
What a risk they are taking! Or i m just worrying for nothing?!
And one more info
For QC if we get QC order, do we (Singapore resudents) need to pay for it? Also tests ?
[6:32 pm, 27/07/2021] +Caleb: What is QC?
[6:37 pm, 27/07/2021] +Suma pamu: Sorry for Typo Err
QO
[6:37 pm, 27/07/2021] +Rama: Tommy Koh: MHA should respond to serious accusations that ‘KTV lounges controlled by organised crime, are illegal brothels’
https://theindependent.sg/tommy-koh-mha-should-respond-to-serious-accusations-that-ktv-lounges-controlled-by-organised-crime-are-illegal-brothels/
[6:44 pm, 27/07/2021] ☸️ Danny 心: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-new-cases-locally-transmitted-moh-jul-27-unlinked-15305124 136 local cases - still quite high.
[6:52 pm, 27/07/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 10 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Best,
Megan
[6:55 pm, 27/07/2021] +Alvin Lim: One thing I’ve noticed is more people not wearing masks when outdoors walking to bus stop etc
[6:55 pm, 27/07/2021] +Alvin Lim: I know weather is hot but still
[6:56 pm, 27/07/2021] +Rama: At the country expense!?
[7:00 pm, 27/07/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan 😊
=====
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