REACH 469 - What are your views about the debate on the motion to abolish GRCs?
(SK)
06 Jul 2023 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
06/07/2023, 9:45 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
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Megan ๐
06/07/2023, 10:00 am - +REACH: ๐ข *Topic* ๐ข
On Wednesday (Jul 5) Parliament voted against Progress Singapore Party (PSP) motion to abolish the Group Representation Constituency (GRC) system. Supporting the motion would risk having no or inadequate multiracial representation in Parliament, said Minister of Education and Minister-in-charge of the Public Service Chan Chun Sing.
๐ฌ *What are your views about the debate on the motion to abolish GRCs?*
PSP non-constituency MP (NCMP) Hazel Poa called for GRCs to be abolished and said that the GRC system has generated several “sub-optimal” outcomes, and proposed 2 alternatives to GRCs, in which, Minister Chan Chun Sing gave his responses.
1️⃣ *NCMP Scheme*
This would allow minority candidates with the highest percentage of votes who were not nominated to be appointed as NCMPs in the event that under-representation occurs.
↪️ Minister Chan said that he did not think such a scheme would achieve the objectives of ensuring a multi-racial parliament as there would be “no guarantee” that an electoral system with only single seats would have enough minority candidates among the losing candidates. He added that such a scheme would also risk resulting in a predominantly Chinese party in power, with minority NCMPs in opposition.
2️⃣ *Proportional Representation*
A party that obtained 10% of national vote will be allocated 10% of the seats in Parliament.
↪️ Minister Chan
noted that such a system would result in “parties that are based on race and religion, or special interests.” He added that , “some parties will be incentivised to build their based around a particular interest in order to win seats, rather than to appeal to a broad majority of voters.”
Nominated MPs Mr Mark Chay and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas did not support the motion, and proposed the following alternatives to the GRC system, to which, Minister Chan gave his response:
1️⃣ *Reduce the size of GRCs*
2️⃣ *Increase the number of SMCs*
Mr Chay said this would make it easier for opposition parties to field candidates to contest, which could lead to greater voter choice and accountability for elected officials.
↪️Minister Chan noted that the average size of GRCs has decreased alongside a rise in the number of SMCs in the last two elections. He said that the Electoral Boundaries Review Committee (EBRC) takes into consideration various factors when deciding on electoral boundaries – an area that is “not for the government of the day to decide.”
๐ *Against abolishing the GRC system*
MP Murali Pillai added how he encountered attempts to politicise race issues when he contested Bukit Batok in 2016 and 2020. He said he did not encounter similar attempts when contesting in Aljunied GRC the 2015 General Election.
Leader of the Opposition Pritam Singh pointed out that he believes that the GRC system had some part to play in having the younger generation be more welcoming of racial diversity and forced opposition like WP to file a multiracial slate.
Nominated MPs Mr Mark Chay and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas did not support the motion. Mr Chay said GRCs play an important role in maintaining Singapore’s social fabric.
๐๐ผ Parliament rejects PSP motion to abolish GRC system : https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/parliament-rejects-psp-motion-to-abolish-grc-system
๐๐ผ Parliament votes against Progressive Singapore Party’s motion to abolish GRCs : https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/parliament-votes-against-progress-singapore-partys-motion-abolish-grcs-3607536
06/07/2023, 10:00 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow all participants to send messages to this group
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06/07/2023, 10:01 am - +Rama: Don't see how grc has benefits for the electorate but only the ruling party in government
06/07/2023, 10:02 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed the group description
06/07/2023, 10:06 am - +Ah Heng: wahh this one disappointment reh hahahaha
06/07/2023, 10:06 am - +Ah Heng: will be good to see old days 1:1 fight
06/07/2023, 10:09 am - +Ken: gerrymander is always being used… like it or not is common tactic used by politicians everywhere
06/07/2023, 10:09 am - +Ken: ๐คฃ
06/07/2023, 10:09 am - +Ken: Just that with GRC easier to predict. With SMC it becomes hard for gerrymandering to happen
06/07/2023, 10:10 am - +Ah Heng: but again with the current level of oppo we have better grc hahaha dun wan more to waste hearing why can saty this house why that
06/07/2023, 10:10 am - +Ah Heng: wait till oppo shit got dig up .. then cry ooo no kenna bully
06/07/2023, 10:11 am - +Timothy Low: Maybe just like how we have reserved presidency, we can also have reserved SMC allocated to a certain race?
06/07/2023, 10:11 am - +Ah Heng: when will drama end
06/07/2023, 10:11 am - +Ken: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering_in_the_United_States#:~:text=In%201995%20the%20Supreme%20Court,purposely%20devised%20based%20on%20race.
I wonder why we still allow this to happen?
06/07/2023, 10:12 am - +Ken: Err presidency reserved I am totally against it ๐
06/07/2023, 10:12 am - +Ken: In the first place, is it even fair
06/07/2023, 10:12 am - +Timothy Low: Government like can already
06/07/2023, 10:13 am - +Ken: But more SMC means more people required for the count ๐
06/07/2023, 10:14 am - +Ken: I am sure we have other race that are strong enough to run without reserved. Example Tharman, he will have my vote.
06/07/2023, 10:14 am - +Ah Heng: president run the country or the parliament
06/07/2023, 10:14 am - +Ah Heng: why fight over administrative role
06/07/2023, 10:15 am - +Ah Heng: president got involved talking about fta with other govt ?
06/07/2023, 10:15 am - +Ken: Lol President holds the key to CPF ๐
06/07/2023, 10:15 am - +Ah Heng: den ask urself CPF U can taake back with change of president
06/07/2023, 10:15 am - +Rama: Yes
06/07/2023, 10:15 am - +Rama: Parliament
06/07/2023, 10:15 am - +Ah Heng: focus on the operational team
06/07/2023, 10:15 am - +Ken: So if not part of them it is hard to use the treasury without checking with President
06/07/2023, 10:15 am - +Rama: On paper
06/07/2023, 10:16 am - +Ah Heng: this is the team that determine if we eat rice or eat grass or our children become salves to Fake import talents
06/07/2023, 10:16 am - +Ken: Lol but still in paper mah.. they have to respect if he make noise ๐คฃ
06/07/2023, 10:16 am - +Rama: Yeah
06/07/2023, 10:16 am - +Rama: Never
06/07/2023, 10:16 am - +Ah Heng: president can be indian / malay / chinese/ eurasian for all i care
06/07/2023, 10:17 am - +Ah Heng: as long as is not an Import Figure can liao
06/07/2023, 10:17 am - +Rama: Hugh!?
06/07/2023, 10:17 am - +Rama: Definitely
06/07/2023, 10:17 am - +Ah Heng: your ops team fail , the whole freaking country will sink
06/07/2023, 10:17 am - +Ah Heng: dun talk about cpf
06/07/2023, 10:17 am - +Ah Heng: ur kids future and family will burnt in flames
06/07/2023, 10:18 am - +Rama: Did government respect OTC when he asked about the size of the country reserve!?
06/07/2023, 10:18 am - +Ah Heng: we those talking here by them u legs already turn to ash in mandai or cck
06/07/2023, 10:18 am - +Ah Heng: dun forget president not big arse or commander of the country
06/07/2023, 10:18 am - +Ken: Rare to have someone from inside to question them… hence his outcome ๐
06/07/2023, 10:18 am - +Ah Heng: they have rules to play by also
06/07/2023, 10:18 am - +Rama: Yes
06/07/2023, 10:19 am - +Rama: Tuned to their preferences
06/07/2023, 10:19 am - +Ah Heng: aka you are empoly as a civil servant to the country so what u are president abide by your position rule
06/07/2023, 10:19 am - +Ah Heng: well yes and no andrew
06/07/2023, 10:19 am - +Rama: Cosmetic
06/07/2023, 10:19 am - +Ah Heng: is like a CEO biggest arse in the company
06/07/2023, 10:19 am - +Rama: Touche
06/07/2023, 10:19 am - +Ken: Expensive one to keep.. if he don’t play any role ๐
06/07/2023, 10:19 am - +Ah Heng: but can he do alot of things to his own willed - NO right cos there are rules for this position
06/07/2023, 10:20 am - +Rama: Financially worthwhile
06/07/2023, 10:20 am - +Ken: I pretty sure our President does some stuff..
06/07/2023, 10:20 am - +Ah Heng: so if we see things from another angle can we say what is going on all gear or tailor to one party ?
06/07/2023, 10:20 am - +Ah Heng: i will say nope but is more like a crop standard and process
06/07/2023, 10:20 am - +Rama: Will never happen
06/07/2023, 10:20 am - +Ah Heng: and of cos liek in all mnc there will be bound to be unhappiness (the general workers aka us the public)
06/07/2023, 10:21 am - +Ah Heng: have lah
06/07/2023, 10:21 am - +Ah Heng: open secret every one also knwo
06/07/2023, 10:21 am - +Rama: How will this work!?
06/07/2023, 10:21 am - +Ah Heng: even ms chia also come out to run for election (fake wan for entertainment) as ah lian
06/07/2023, 10:21 am - +Rama: Yup
06/07/2023, 10:22 am - +Rama: To suit the government
06/07/2023, 10:24 am - +Ah Heng: fight over admin role is from us the people
06/07/2023, 10:25 am - +Ah Heng: as a winning party of cos u try to put your own people at as many impt position as possible right even the same for MNC politics
06/07/2023, 10:25 am - +Ah Heng: again please i am not suport both camp but just stating the facts of a layan on the layman on the street
06/07/2023, 11:50 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors*
We want to *HEAR MORE* from you!
๐ฌ *What are your views about the debate on the motion to abolish GRCs?*
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan ๐
06/07/2023, 12:13 pm - +~@: saw something about the reserved presidential election. i remember when President Halimah took the office. Wechat immediate reaction from Chinese was Singapore turned into a green dot.
06/07/2023, 12:13 pm - +~@: behave as if they lost their most important vassal state
06/07/2023, 12:17 pm - +Noraini: respect President Halimah. I pm her my personal problem at work. She took time to read and replied
06/07/2023, 12:17 pm - +Rama: Not surprising
06/07/2023, 12:17 pm - +Rama: ๐คท♂️
06/07/2023, 12:22 pm - +Smiley face: " to do it or not to do it or just do it ?"
“We fear the future because we are wasting today.”
- - Mother Theresa
Simplicity vs Complexity?
06/07/2023, 12:23 pm - +Rama: Both
06/07/2023, 12:44 pm - +Smiley face: 6 July, 2023
The Triple S: Simulate or Sequel or Similar? Prospective (future), Retrospective (past) & Perspective (now)
"The three S, is applicable to politics of all sorts?"
- - anonymity
Prospective can be explained as a multi dimensional of possibilities and probabilities. Retrospective is a dimensional viewing of past outcomes that can be documented for keeping or for future referencing. The present moment of now, how your prospectives and your retro experiences will affect your perspective on your beliefs, behaviors and decisions. It will be the influencer in shaping your probable outcomes, this (that) moment of truth.
Introspective (self)?
Our brains "record" only new events, not repetitive events. Our judgment of the past is based on the number of new memories.
Time seemed to drag on so much during childhood. We make most fun about the world around us and ourselves in childhood times and early adolescence, so in retrospect the brain seems to have all the longest moments. Are these the longest time of innocence, happier moments or sad times! What is adulthood and how about the reminisce of the years?
You can slow down the passage of time by having new "experiences",... How can we meaningfully apply this concept of "slowing" down the time and "speeding" up as and when is deemed necessarily?
Let's start stratifying (small bits) and stratigise (big pieces) a new way out of many existential issues and challenges. That if we can see it all through and through?
- - in progress - -
06/07/2023, 12:46 pm - +Ah Heng: They can turn us into brown black blue gold for all I care cos we know we are RED AND WHITE PKUS 5 STARS AND A CRESCENT MOON... Singapore is what we are red dot is just a nick name
06/07/2023, 12:47 pm - +~@: nice caps ๐
06/07/2023, 12:49 pm - +Ah Heng: Caps because that's our real id. Dun fight over nonsense thinking ...that's what makes us different frm them.....
06/07/2023, 12:56 pm - +Kenneth Lee WM: GRC limits our voting choices. We can't vote out people whom we don't believe in because they are put into GRC with people whom we believe in. So no choice, because we want the person, we have to accept the baggage. I hope that GRC can be done away with.
06/07/2023, 12:57 pm - +Smiley face: 6 July, 2023
The Big Macro of politics?
" Business as usual or a different business model of politics?"
- - anonymity
Watch it!
Next year (2024), three big elections are coming, that is America, India and Indonesia (AII) ! A total combined Population of 2 billions and it's 25% of the entire world order of human beings!
What are the implications and significances to the existing framework of democracy or otherwise a new wave of ideology emerging for one or either both or three waves of change? If we mixed generative AI with social media into these macro games of politics, what will be the outcomes? Who wins or who will lose?
So what's next in 2025?
- - in progress - -
06/07/2023, 1:00 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
1. PAP believe in GRC.
2. WP believe in GRC.
3. NMP believe in GRC.
Because all go into parliament even though GRC is implemented.
WP is one of the big winner with GRC as more of their MPs get in compare to SMC.
PSP make noise because they are not strong enough to win through GRC.
06/07/2023, 1:03 pm - +Frankie Wee: Believe govt policies will make change outcome system because of AI
06/07/2023, 1:04 pm - +Frankie Wee: If no AI then economy will slow challenge other country growth fast
06/07/2023, 1:04 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Whether GRC or SMC, as long as the party is strong, the candidates are strong, people will vote for them.
Gerrymandering people accuse of don't only happen in GRC, it can also happen in SMC.
If a candidate is strong, the area can be draw bigger in SMC or GRC if gerrymandering is to take place.
So no difference.
06/07/2023, 1:04 pm - +Rama: Agree
06/07/2023, 1:05 pm - +Rama: Agree
06/07/2023, 1:05 pm - +Rama: One rotten apple can hide in a basket
06/07/2023, 1:06 pm - +Rama: Yes
06/07/2023, 1:07 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Eg. Trump campaign alone and win the presidency in a SMC not GRC.
A rotten apple not necessary can emerge from a GRC, it also happens in a SMC.
06/07/2023, 1:08 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Also can provide an example which rotten apple come out from GRC in Singapore context?
06/07/2023, 1:08 pm - +Rama: Correct
06/07/2023, 1:11 pm - +~L: I think we need to maintain consistency and stability, whilst ensuring there is a voice for all Singaporean points of view. I'm not in favour of changing a system that could lead to volatile politics that is about winning power through short-term sales tactics rather than long term growth and direction.
06/07/2023, 1:11 pm - +~L: Yes, but their poison is diluted and limited.
06/07/2023, 1:12 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
I remember during the early days when GRC not implemented, I just vote PAP candidate.
I don't know the caliber of the candidate - I only believe in PAP platform.
So I just vote him in.
If go by this context, I am afraid, minorities representations will be greatly reduced in parliament if no GRC.
06/07/2023, 1:13 pm - +~L: Seems like a good system then... we don't all believe in the same people, so having a range of people is good!
06/07/2023, 1:14 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Honestly when WP introduced peng eng huat in hougang - any one know his caliber?
People vote him because hougang is WP stronghold.
06/07/2023, 1:18 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Without GRC, the renewal of introducing young candidates will be impeded.
Eg. Oppositions can keep introducing very old but reputable candidate eg. Tan Cheng bok 80 years old.
PAP introduces very promising young candidates eg. 30 years old but no one knows him.
Will voters vote for tan Cheng bok or this young promising candidate?
So soon young candidates can't get into parliament to solve new problems like ai, scam, Blockchain etc.
Tan Cheng bok will be stuck with old thinking.
Singapore will be in big trouble.
06/07/2023, 1:19 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Look at M in our neighbours.
Still bring out old thinking about M proclamation - when Singapore and Indonesia talk about multi racial harmony and economic development.
06/07/2023, 1:20 pm - +Smiley face: 6 July, 2023
" Looking more real than the reality!"
- - anonymity
Evolutions of AI and HI
The problems with generative AI is these bots are self evolving at thousands X that outplay, out think and outsmart human intelligence!
The critical word is self evolving! How can now and then policymakers and regulators chase after these high speed evolutions of artificial intelligence? It is not simple and it is highly complicated to address the unavoidable pitfalls of humanity (HI) ! The rest will be a lot of fakes or artificial facts and figures!
What is the origin of reality and what is looking more real than fake?
- - in progress - -
06/07/2023, 1:24 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
So without GRC, using only SMC, what problems will we face:-
1. Promising but unknown young candidates difficult to get in - young generation representation in trouble.
Self renewal in trouble.
2. Minorities representations in trouble.
3. Only old lau kok kok will have no choice but fielded - because everyone know him not the young one.
Singapore future very bleak.
Do we want this scenario to happen?
06/07/2023, 1:28 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Look at our all young promising 4G leaders - emerging from GRCs.
And together with 3G leaders - help to secure us the best government in the world.
Thanks for the foresight of LKY.
Else Singapore will not have so many young capable Ministers helming the government.
Singapore future will not be so bright. <This message was edited>
06/07/2023, 1:31 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Eg. Who know Dennis lim after peng eng huat pass the baton to him - except he come from WP.
Dennis lim is voted in because he is from WP.
06/07/2023, 1:48 pm - +Timothy Low: As with all systems, as and when must update and change to adapt to meet the demands of future Singaporeans. To say that there won't be any minority representations in the parliament without the GRC system, is as good as saying our efforts to cultivate racial harmony and meritocracy values have failed. My stand is to have more SMCs in the next GE and see how it goes and adapt along the way
06/07/2023, 1:52 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Look at WP, other than Pritam Singh, any other strong minorities candidates?
Look at PSP, any strong minorities candidates?
The only strong minorities candidates come from PAP.
If going forward with SMC, more and more Chinese candidates will be fielded and less minorities candidates will get in.
This will spell big trouble in racial representation in the parliament.
06/07/2023, 1:54 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Just look at our neighbour.
PH has a good balance multi racial representation.
PN, PAS, Bersatu all Malays.
If pas, pn, Bersatu win big - all minorities representations such as Chinese and Indians will be greatly diminished and Malaysia parliament will only have very strong Malay voice.
And the country will be very unstable when minorities are not represented. <This message was edited>
06/07/2023, 1:57 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
The same can happen in Singapore - whereby Chinese will be very dominant if we abolish GRCs, and perhaps some Indians will get in.
This is a real scenario - not a racist statement.
GRCs guarantee multi racial representation in parliament.
SMC will have a very uncomfortable parliament representation - and a very unstable political outcome.
06/07/2023, 2:07 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Just look at US SMC concept.
Mainly whites.
How many blacks and Asian are represented in the congress and the senate - even though blacks and Asian descent are big minorities.
And see how policies work against blacks and Asians descent when there are negligible minorities representations in the house and the senate?
So LKY GRC is a brilliant concept - only Singapore has it.
And Singapore government is the best in the world.
It is not by chance, but by brilliant mind.
06/07/2023, 2:09 pm - +REACH: ๐ข *Topic* ๐ข
On Wednesday (Jul 5) Parliament voted against Progress Singapore Party (PSP) motion to abolish the Group Representation Constituency (GRC) system. Supporting the motion would risk having no or inadequate multiracial representation in Parliament, said Minister of Education and Minister-in-charge of the Public Service Chan Chun Sing.
๐ฌ *What are your views about the debate on the motion to abolish GRCs?*
PSP non-constituency MP (NCMP) Hazel Poa called for GRCs to be abolished and said that the GRC system has generated several “sub-optimal” outcomes, and proposed 2 alternatives to GRCs, in which, Minister Chan Chun Sing gave his responses.
1️⃣ *NCMP Scheme*
This would allow minority candidates with the highest percentage of votes who were not nominated to be appointed as NCMPs in the event that under-representation occurs.
↪️ Minister Chan said that he did not think such a scheme would achieve the objectives of ensuring a multi-racial parliament as there would be “no guarantee” that an electoral system with only single seats would have enough minority candidates among the losing candidates. He added that such a scheme would also risk resulting in a predominantly Chinese party in power, with minority NCMPs in opposition.
2️⃣ *Proportional Representation*
A party that obtained 10% of national vote will be allocated 10% of the seats in Parliament.
↪️ Minister Chan
noted that such a system would result in “parties that are based on race and religion, or special interests.” He added that , “some parties will be incentivised to build their based around a particular interest in order to win seats, rather than to appeal to a broad majority of voters.”
Nominated MPs Mr Mark Chay and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas did not support the motion, and proposed the following alternatives to the GRC system, to which, Minister Chan gave his response:
1️⃣ *Reduce the size of GRCs*
2️⃣ *Increase the number of SMCs*
Mr Chay said this would make it easier for opposition parties to field candidates to contest, which could lead to greater voter choice and accountability for elected officials.
↪️Minister Chan noted that the average size of GRCs has decreased alongside a rise in the number of SMCs in the last two elections. He said that the Electoral Boundaries Review Committee (EBRC) takes into consideration various factors when deciding on electoral boundaries – an area that is “not for the government of the day to decide.”
๐ *Against abolishing the GRC system*
MP Murali Pillai added how he encountered attempts to politicise race issues when he contested Bukit Batok in 2016 and 2020. He said he did not encounter similar attempts when contesting in Aljunied GRC the 2015 General Election.
Leader of the Opposition Pritam Singh pointed out that he believes that the GRC system had some part to play in having the younger generation be more welcoming of racial diversity and forced opposition like WP to file a multiracial slate.
Nominated MPs Mr Mark Chay and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas did not support the motion. Mr Chay said GRCs play an important role in maintaining Singapore’s social fabric.
๐๐ผ Parliament rejects PSP motion to abolish GRC system : https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/parliament-rejects-psp-motion-to-abolish-grc-system
๐๐ผ Parliament votes against Progressive Singapore Party’s motion to abolish GRCs : https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/parliament-votes-against-progress-singapore-partys-motion-abolish-grcs-3607536
06/07/2023, 2:17 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Great Mind must come from Great Heart.
Singapore is very lucky because our leaders have Great Heart (promoting the holistic values of multi racial harmony and representation) - hence come the Great Mind (GRCs to realise multi racial harmony and representation).
06/07/2023, 2:18 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
The same go for Indonesia - President Widodo who actively promote multi racial harmony.
06/07/2023, 2:33 pm - +Smiley face: The dynamics of numbers and numbering...policies and politics!
280 million vs 1.4 billion ?
06/07/2023, 2:37 pm - +Ah Heng: i like this part .. ->
06/07/2023, 2:37 pm - +Ah Heng: Mr Chay said this would make it easier for opposition parties to field candidates to contest, which could lead to greater voter choice and accountability for elected officials.
06/07/2023, 2:37 pm - +Ah Heng: of cos lah another remark that no need brain to think
06/07/2023, 2:37 pm - +Ah Heng: smc will make it easier for any one to contest provided the bare requirements are met
06/07/2023, 2:38 pm - +Ah Heng: but i cannot say the same for a greater voice given this seasoon of oppo making all the shit and drain topics over govt time
06/07/2023, 2:38 pm - +Ah Heng: quantity is one thing
06/07/2023, 2:38 pm - +Ah Heng: quality of candidate ... well like some say singaporeans are not stupid
06/07/2023, 2:58 pm - +Ken: Opposition if they cannot find enough quality candidates will be like finding people willing to contest and end up with useless MP in GRC.
SMC Atleast good ones stand a chance.
06/07/2023, 2:58 pm - +Smiley face: Will it be just an aspiration or it can be achieved with courage and vision; by transforming the existing systems of the powerbase from the bottom to the top; once again, uniquely Singapore?...
"All life matters.., there is no need for the opposition unless the proposition cannot find the opposite and entrapped between the right, the center, and the left of matters...?"
- - anonymity
06/07/2023, 3:02 pm - +Rama: They never will!
06/07/2023, 3:05 pm - +Smiley face: The ways of water!
"Water flows from the highlands to the lowlands. Water is soft (soft), and water can harden too (hard)! Get the combination of soft and hard right and you will understand the power of water!
- - anonymity
ๆฐด้!
ๆฐดไป้ซๅฐๆตๅไฝๅฐ. ๆฐดๆฏ่ฝฏ็(soft), ๆฐดไนๆฏ็กฌ็(hard). ่ฝฏ็กฌ็ปๅๅพๅฝๆญฃ็กฎไฝ ๅฐฑไผๆๅพๆฐด็ๅ้!
- - ๆ ๅ
06/07/2023, 3:08 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
If MPs can't even run a $100 million town council, on top of talking in parliament and meet the people session?
Then why pay MP $16,000 a month?
Talk in parliament, once a month?
Meet the people once or twice a week?
Then the workload of MPs far too light.
Lighter than mine.
06/07/2023, 3:09 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
If 4 MPs can't even run a $100 million town council properly, wonder if they become minister, can they run a few billions dollar Ministry?
06/07/2023, 3:10 pm - +Rama: Agree!?
06/07/2023, 3:10 pm - +Rama: Definitely
06/07/2023, 3:13 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
During my heyday, I run a $110 million project.
On top of it I run multiple roles - in total $300 million projects.
I expect to make profit for all the projects.
Imagine if I lose $33 million for my $110 million project?
My top boss will "slam me left right center top and bottom".
Luckily all the projects I handle all make profit.
Just 1 $100 million project make such a big loss - yet oppie supporters scrambling to help them to winch themselves out of town council.
Then MP roles too easy . <This message was edited>
06/07/2023, 3:15 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
MPs suppose to be the highest office in the land you know after Ministers.
06/07/2023, 3:15 pm - +Rama: Not Perm Sec!?
06/07/2023, 3:17 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Perm sec administrative role.
Ministers and MPs are political role and lawmaking roles in parliament.
Perm sec policies only focus on optimal policy to solve problems.
Ministers and MPs provide a political angle to the policies.
06/07/2023, 3:21 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Most of the time, policies make by civil service are amended taking into account political consideration.
Eg. Give more opportunities to equality.
Not all straight As get scholarship but As and Bs also can win scholarship because the person has other good characteristics.
Perm sec eg. may choose straight As.
Minister may say the person with some As and Bs can win the scholarship because they want representation from other tiers.
06/07/2023, 3:22 pm - +Rama: Thanks for the clarification
06/07/2023, 3:22 pm - +KL: u mean asean scholarship ?
06/07/2023, 3:23 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Any type of scholarship.
06/07/2023, 3:44 pm - +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/pwsupVVlhYA
06/07/2023, 3:50 pm - +Ah Heng: yeah that will also tarnish their image ... polictics is not a game of cards just go there and opposition and opposition
06/07/2023, 3:50 pm - +Ah Heng: must talk with sense
06/07/2023, 3:50 pm - +Smiley face: There are ways to increase our LWW wages closer to $3,000 within the next 5 years or shorter; in addition to our workfare programs...
It can be done to uplift the bottom ups approach!
How to do it with the meaning and the dignity of working?
06/07/2023, 4:00 pm - +Rama: Will the increase keep pace with current costs of living!?
06/07/2023, 4:01 pm - +Smiley face: Prof Tommy's spoken 3 years ago!
Today, wait, proposed a way to wage increase for our LWW...
Thanks Andrew for pointing out!
06/07/2023, 4:05 pm - +REACH: ๐ข *Topic* ๐ข
On Wednesday (Jul 5) Parliament voted against Progress Singapore Party (PSP) motion to abolish the Group Representation Constituency (GRC) system. Supporting the motion would risk having no or inadequate multiracial representation in Parliament, said Minister of Education and Minister-in-charge of the Public Service Chan Chun Sing.
๐ฌ *What are your views about the debate on the motion to abolish GRCs?*
PSP non-constituency MP (NCMP) Hazel Poa called for GRCs to be abolished and said that the GRC system has generated several “sub-optimal” outcomes, and proposed 2 alternatives to GRCs, in which, Minister Chan Chun Sing gave his responses.
1️⃣ *NCMP Scheme*
This would allow minority candidates with the highest percentage of votes who were not nominated to be appointed as NCMPs in the event that under-representation occurs.
↪️ Minister Chan said that he did not think such a scheme would achieve the objectives of ensuring a multi-racial parliament as there would be “no guarantee” that an electoral system with only single seats would have enough minority candidates among the losing candidates. He added that such a scheme would also risk resulting in a predominantly Chinese party in power, with minority NCMPs in opposition.
2️⃣ *Proportional Representation*
A party that obtained 10% of national vote will be allocated 10% of the seats in Parliament.
↪️ Minister Chan
noted that such a system would result in “parties that are based on race and religion, or special interests.” He added that , “some parties will be incentivised to build their based around a particular interest in order to win seats, rather than to appeal to a broad majority of voters.”
Nominated MPs Mr Mark Chay and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas did not support the motion, and proposed the following alternatives to the GRC system, to which, Minister Chan gave his response:
1️⃣ *Reduce the size of GRCs*
2️⃣ *Increase the number of SMCs*
Mr Chay said this would make it easier for opposition parties to field candidates to contest, which could lead to greater voter choice and accountability for elected officials.
↪️Minister Chan noted that the average size of GRCs has decreased alongside a rise in the number of SMCs in the last two elections. He said that the Electoral Boundaries Review Committee (EBRC) takes into consideration various factors when deciding on electoral boundaries – an area that is “not for the government of the day to decide.”
๐ *Against abolishing the GRC system*
MP Murali Pillai added how he encountered attempts to politicise race issues when he contested Bukit Batok in 2016 and 2020. He said he did not encounter similar attempts when contesting in Aljunied GRC the 2015 General Election.
Leader of the Opposition Pritam Singh pointed out that he believes that the GRC system had some part to play in having the younger generation be more welcoming of racial diversity and forced opposition like WP to file a multiracial slate.
Nominated MPs Mr Mark Chay and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas did not support the motion. Mr Chay said GRCs play an important role in maintaining Singapore’s social fabric.
๐๐ผ Parliament rejects PSP motion to abolish GRC system : https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/parliament-rejects-psp-motion-to-abolish-grc-system
๐๐ผ Parliament votes against Progressive Singapore Party’s motion to abolish GRCs : https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/parliament-votes-against-progress-singapore-partys-motion-abolish-grcs-3607536
06/07/2023, 4:19 pm - +Smiley face: 6 July, 2023
" Don't need the Gini, let's look for the genie?"
- - anonymity
The idea is to uplift our LWW especially for our citizens to achieve a gross monthly income of $3,500 to $4,000 by 2030 or earlier. (coupled with workfare and other incentives)
How to classify a LWW?
Empathy & Sympathy, the
monthly Income before deductions of CPF is $3,000 and below. (This baseline to be reviewed every two years)
A meaningful way to up the take home pay!
Assuming, a FOUR days work week, these LWW will benefit from additional wage based on the additional work days from the 5th or 6th or 7th work week (Saturday or Sunday are taken as Public holidays).
The fifth workday shall be waged at 50% and the 6th or 7th day shall be 100% calculated pro-rata on the number of days in a particular month. (February can be 28 or 29 days and other months either 30 or 31 days)
An example, an able and hardworking LWW or seniors clocked one to two extras day per week and the monthly incremental will look like this:
Model:
Assuming the basic wage includes workfare is $2,400.
6 day week:
($60x1.5)+($60x2.0) x 4 weeks
= $840
5 day week:
($60x1.5)+*($60x1.5) x 4 weeks = $720
*on day 6th worked half day
Total gross salary will cross the $3,000 mark or more.
- - in progress - -
06/07/2023, 4:26 pm - +Ken: Higher than fresh grad for some ๐
06/07/2023, 4:27 pm - +Smiley face: Fresh grads will have a longer runway to earn more ...
Does it matter if we uplift and hopefully close the equality game once a lifetime, our LWW?
All life matter..
Thanks , Ken!
06/07/2023, 4:29 pm - +Andrew Ang: How about old grads and the rest? Policy should apply to all instead of certain grps
06/07/2023, 4:30 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Imagine if perm sec and civil service can run the country impeccably, then LKY and 1st generation PAP - will not come out, risk their lives to win one election after election.
I am sure LKY and the 1st generation PAP will work quietly in the civil service as head of state and run Singapore.
Unfortunately, government don't operate this way.
Governance need to win the mandate of the people in political contest and need competent civil service to formulate policies to keep the country humming.
Hence political system, institution and structure are so important on top of competence civil service.
06/07/2023, 4:30 pm - +Rama: Agree
06/07/2023, 4:31 pm - +Smiley face: Of course, use this model and transform it ...
Examples, pls elaborate so that we can seek a for path...
Thanks
06/07/2023, 4:32 pm - +Ken: Err the thing is they rarely review pay of those low pay graduates..
๐
06/07/2023, 4:32 pm - +Smiley face: Quit and move onto greener pastures...
06/07/2023, 4:32 pm - +Ken: I know of people pay stagnant… even if they are degree graduates
06/07/2023, 4:33 pm - +Smiley face: Some people are good at micro while others are good at macro and some are good at both!
06/07/2023, 4:33 pm - ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
In addition, top civil servants are appointed by Ministers to help them to achieve the objectives - to make the life better for Singapore.
If no good political ministers, then how does civil servants get themselves into civil service?
Good ministers will attract good civil servants.
A mediocre minister will chase away good civil servants and attract mediocre civil servants.
Hence so important to vote in capable politicians.
06/07/2023, 4:34 pm - +KL: Gov say them job hopper
06/07/2023, 4:34 pm - +Frankie Wee: Basic on working hours 44 per week by MOM
06/07/2023, 4:34 pm - +KL: The truth is Sg just need GDP and cheap labour
06/07/2023, 4:35 pm - +Frankie Wee: is there human reduce hour work with support AI take up job
06/07/2023, 4:35 pm - +Smiley face: 4 day week, that will be a reality,...
06/07/2023, 4:35 pm - +Smiley face: Yes, perhaps
06/07/2023, 4:35 pm - +Rama: Cheap labour is dying
06/07/2023, 4:36 pm - +Smiley face: Pay cheap and you will end up paying more ...
Let's think
06/07/2023, 4:37 pm - +Smiley face: 8hrs x 4 days week = 32 hours
06/07/2023, 4:37 pm - +Frankie Wee: Great I would like it flexibility hour and keep spent time family and de-stress
06/07/2023, 4:41 pm - +Smiley face: A game of denominator and numberator
06/07/2023, 4:44 pm - +Smiley face: "either you win big or you struggle to win or you find ways to win...?"
- - anonymity
06/07/2023, 5:07 pm - +Smiley face: 6 July, 2023
"Full of (Fun) Facts! "
EVERY...
100 years or less, a global change of power, order, natural disasters, climate change and pandemic.
40 years, since WW2, US army transformed itself to new doctrines, weaponries and logistics. Three traditional military forces Land, Sea, Air converging with Cyber force and Space force with AI and human to form a complete defence and/or attack force (fighting net), faster and further; AI war!
20 years, after WW2, up to 2 billions human produced.
20 years, after WW2, changed in the world demographics, birth rates and migration trends.
20 years, after WW2, is one new generation in the making.
15 years, after WW2, economics slowed down and financial turmoils.
10 years, after WW2, newer and advanced technologies been introduced and commercialised.
10 years, after WW2, political and power changed in most nations.
- - in progress - -
06/07/2023, 5:15 pm - +Smiley face: "There is nothing to prevent you from pushing your propaganda, to push your programme out either to the students or with the public at large... and if you can carry the ground, if you are right, you win. That's democracy. We're not preventing anybody."
- - MM Lee Kuan Yew, 31 January 2005
06/07/2023, 5:30 pm - +Smiley face: The latest noise:
Reverting to the original electoral geography of single member of Parliament constituency system?
06/07/2023, 6:00 pm - +REACH: ๐ข *Topic* ๐ข
On Wednesday (Jul 5) Parliament voted against Progress Singapore Party (PSP) motion to abolish the Group Representation Constituency (GRC) system. Supporting the motion would risk having no or inadequate multiracial representation in Parliament, said Minister of Education and Minister-in-charge of the Public Service Chan Chun Sing.
๐ฌ *What are your views about the debate on the motion to abolish GRCs?*
PSP non-constituency MP (NCMP) Hazel Poa called for GRCs to be abolished and said that the GRC system has generated several “sub-optimal” outcomes, and proposed 2 alternatives to GRCs, in which, Minister Chan Chun Sing gave his responses.
1️⃣ *NCMP Scheme*
This would allow minority candidates with the highest percentage of votes who were not nominated to be appointed as NCMPs in the event that under-representation occurs.
↪️ Minister Chan said that he did not think such a scheme would achieve the objectives of ensuring a multi-racial parliament as there would be “no guarantee” that an electoral system with only single seats would have enough minority candidates among the losing candidates. He added that such a scheme would also risk resulting in a predominantly Chinese party in power, with minority NCMPs in opposition.
2️⃣ *Proportional Representation*
A party that obtained 10% of national vote will be allocated 10% of the seats in Parliament.
↪️ Minister Chan
noted that such a system would result in “parties that are based on race and religion, or special interests.” He added that , “some parties will be incentivised to build their based around a particular interest in order to win seats, rather than to appeal to a broad majority of voters.”
Nominated MPs Mr Mark Chay and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas did not support the motion, and proposed the following alternatives to the GRC system, to which, Minister Chan gave his response:
1️⃣ *Reduce the size of GRCs*
2️⃣ *Increase the number of SMCs*
Mr Chay said this would make it easier for opposition parties to field candidates to contest, which could lead to greater voter choice and accountability for elected officials.
↪️Minister Chan noted that the average size of GRCs has decreased alongside a rise in the number of SMCs in the last two elections. He said that the Electoral Boundaries Review Committee (EBRC) takes into consideration various factors when deciding on electoral boundaries – an area that is “not for the government of the day to decide.”
๐ *Against abolishing the GRC system*
MP Murali Pillai added how he encountered attempts to politicise race issues when he contested Bukit Batok in 2016 and 2020. He said he did not encounter similar attempts when contesting in Aljunied GRC the 2015 General Election.
Leader of the Opposition Pritam Singh pointed out that he believes that the GRC system had some part to play in having the younger generation be more welcoming of racial diversity and forced opposition like WP to file a multiracial slate.
Nominated MPs Mr Mark Chay and Mr Raj Joshua Thomas did not support the motion. Mr Chay said GRCs play an important role in maintaining Singapore’s social fabric.
๐๐ผ Parliament rejects PSP motion to abolish GRC system : https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/parliament-rejects-psp-motion-to-abolish-grc-system
๐๐ผ Parliament votes against Progressive Singapore Party’s motion to abolish GRCs : https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/parliament-votes-against-progress-singapore-partys-motion-abolish-grcs-3607536
06/07/2023, 6:14 pm - +Smiley face: If we choose the SMC approach, based on the current population size, we may need to increase the number of MPs and enlarge the size of the existing parliament house to accommodate up to 120 members of Parliament? It is not a simple matter...
06/07/2023, 6:16 pm - +Rama: A full seating of the house with part time MP!?
06/07/2023, 6:17 pm - +Smiley face: No part timers!
Either you are in it or you go!
NMPs may have to exit...the beginning of the end?
06/07/2023, 6:17 pm - +Rama: Good! Do away too with NCMP!
06/07/2023, 6:19 pm - +Smiley face: Yes yes, pls do so...sooner than later...
Btw, can anyone share our MM quote to Mr Leong FB or etc? Enlightened people with existential facts and potential threats...
Thanks, Andrew!
06/07/2023, 6:20 pm - +Smiley face: If it is so, then perhaps each of these single member of Parliament will serve a smaller number of people, its about the ratio of service and the ultimate goal of reaching out to each and every person in SG? It is a complex arrangement.
06/07/2023, 6:20 pm - +Rama: Agree
06/07/2023, 6:21 pm - +Boon: And the increase in allowances costs…?
06/07/2023, 6:22 pm - +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/5uAYnSpp3hQ
Pls fwd to Mr Leong and... thanks
06/07/2023, 6:26 pm - +Smiley face: Hi Boon,
Is a game of denominator and numerator...+-x/
06/07/2023, 6:27 pm - +Smiley face: Inclusively, to rebuild and to extend the Parliament house to accommodate more people? Will it be better, efficient and effective?
06/07/2023, 6:31 pm - +Smiley face: The New Ethos of Governance- Empowerment & Enlarging?
Coming up, (aka datang)...
06/07/2023, 6:38 pm - +Smiley face: ...In the true Spirit of inclusion, perhaps, this can be a new way of a bottoms up approach with multi levels of participants and votings from the grassroots to the regional level and onto the pinnacle of the political system, that is our Parliament aka the "House of rules and order" !
06/07/2023, 6:47 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
⏰ We will be closing the chat in *15 minutes* ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan ๐
06/07/2023, 6:58 pm - +Smiley face: 6 July, 2023
" to do it or not to do it or just do it ?"
“We fear the future because we are wasting today.”
- - Mother Theresa
"There is nothing to prevent you from pushing your propaganda, to push your programme out either to the students or with the public at large... and if you can carry the ground, if you are right, you win. That's democracy. We're not preventing anybody."
- - MM Lee Kuan Yew, 31 January 2005
Simplicity vs Complexity?
The latest noise:
Reverting to the original electoral geography of single member of Parliament constituency system?
If we choose the SMC approach, based on the current population size, we may need to increase the number of MPs and enlarge the size of the existing parliament house to accommodate up to 120 members of Parliament? It is not a simple matter.
If it is so, then perhaps each of these single member of Parliament will serve a smaller number of people, its about the ratio of service and the ultimate goal of reaching out to each and every people in SG? It is a complex arrangement.
Inclusively, to rebuild and to extend the Parliament house to accommodate more people? Will it be better, efficient and effective?
"All life matters.., there is no need for the opposition unless the proposition cannot find the opposite and entrapped between the right, the center, and the left of matters...?"
- - anonymity
The New Ethos of Governance- Empowerment & Enlarging?
A new ethos; empowerment starts from the grassroots; each level has its boundary and limitation, a bottoms up approach. Each cluster of 20 HDB blocks or equivalent number of people in an area, a group of grassroot leaders empower to care for the daily matters from cleanliness to residents needs. At each weekly community meeting, residents converge with their leaders to close up and follow up on their requests or enquires. A pre determined scope of responsibilities, guidelines and policies all clearly defined so called "the do and the cannot do" list of things at this residential level. Non-voting rights in Parliament. Monthly allowance of $2,000 for leader, deputy leader @$1,000 and members @$500/mth, each cluster up to 8 members. Maximum of two terms, consecutive or non consecutive.
These committee comprises seniors, working adults, youth, diverse race & religion and women/men who are non or ex civil servants or non or ex GLC workers. Commitment of one to two days per week.
Enlarge it! The next level is the mayor of each township that working hand in hand with the MP, the grassroots committee, PA, the civil services and policymakers on planning, implementation, and existential matters and/or urgent Issues. MPs shall have the rights to vote in Parliament. Maximum service period of three consecutive terms. Mayor or Vice Mayor has no voting rights in Parliament and service period of three consecutive terms.
The entire cohort of these Palimentarians including two grassroots leader per township shall seek for consensus on difficult issues or differences in terms of policies to collaborate a way through for new policies adoption or amendment to the existing policies. Efficient or dissolving or a robust representation of views?
Ministers and PM (level 3)
MPs and Mayors (level 2)
Grassroots leaders (level 1)
Will it be just an aspiration or it can be achieved with courage and vision; by transforming the existing systems of the powerbase from the bottom to the top; once again, uniquely Singapore?
In the true Spirit of inclusion, perhaps, this can be a new way of a bottoms up approach with multi levels of participants and votings from the grassroots to the regional level and onto the pinnacle of the political system, that is our Parliament aka the "House of rules and order" !
https://youtu.be/5uAYnSpp3hQ
- - in progress - -
06/07/2023, 7:04 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan ๐
06/07/2023, 7:04 pm - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow only admins to send messages to this group
06/07/2023, 7:05 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan ๐
=====
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