REACH 449 - What are your views on the new formula to determine public transport fares? How can the Government balance fare affordability while ensuring the financial sustainability of public transport operators?
(SK)
26 Apr 2023 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:58 am, 26/04/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
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Megan π
[10:02 am, 26/04/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
On Tuesday (25 Apr), the Public Transport Council announced that the formula used to determine public transport fares has been adjusted to include two fixed components to reduce swings in fare changes.
π¬ What are your views on the new formula to determine public transport fares? How can the Government balance fare affordability while ensuring the financial sustainability of public transport operators?
In August 2022, PTC was tasked with reviewing the fare adjustment formula to account for changes in commuting patterns, and to balance fare affordability and the financial sustainability of the public transport sector. Such reviews typically take place every five years.
The review was done after engaging with commuters in several focus groups and consulting widely with academics, public transport operators and the National Transport Workers’ Union.
π New formula for fares
The new formula for public transport fares is as follows:
0.5 cCPI (inflation) + 0.4 WI (increase in wages) + 0.1 EI (fuel and electricity prices) – PC (productivity contribution) + C (capacity adjustment factor)
The formula will still take into account the year on year change in inflation, the rate of increase in wages, and fuel and electricity prices. However, the final 2 components were changed from previously variable components to fixed components. The new PC component reduces fare adjustments by 0.1 per cent, and operators are to make up for this reduction by being more efficient.
On the other hand, the C component is a fixed component set at 1.1 per cent, based on actual and planned capacity improvements from 2020 to 2026. This 1.1 per cent largely reflects the improved connectivity and lower journey times arising from the opening of the Thomson-East Coast Line.
π Fare adjustment increases from previous years
PTC also announced that it has retained a mechanism that allows it to defer fare adjustments to subsequent fare reviews, taking into account social and economic conditions.
In the 2022 fare review exercise which excluded the NCF, the maximum fare increase was calculated to be 13.5 per cent but only 2.9 per cent - an increase of four to five cents more for adults who pay for their bus and train rides by card - was granted.
The remaining 10.6 per cent increase was carried over to the 2023 fare review exercise. In response to questions on whether public transport fares will go up this year, PTC Chief Executive Tan Kim Hong said that the formula is used to derive the maximum quantum for any fare hike, but there is a mechanism to moderate this taking into consideration social and economic factors.
However, the PTC emphasized that it remained mindful that deferred fare increases require additional government subsidies to be provided, and that it would exercise fare increases judiciously.
Transport Minister S. Iswaran also said the Government will keep fares affordable for all Singaporeans by funding public transport infrastructure and subsidising part of the operating costs. “We will continue to support vulnerable groups such as senior citizens, lower-wage workers and persons with disabilities with concessionary fares and public transport vouchers,” he added.
Currently, the Government spends over $2 billion in transport subsidies a year. Part of these subsidies are used to fund concessionary fare structures for senior citizens, lower-wage workers and PwDs.
In particular, the Workfare Transport Concession (WTC) Card enables Workfare Income Supplement recipients below 60 years old to enjoy up to 25% off adult fares. PWD Concession Card holders can also enjoy up to 55% off adult fares. The Government has also taken steps to make public transport services more wheelchair accessible.
ππ» https://str.sg/iowX
ππ» https://str.sg/iowh
ππ» https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/public-transport-council-fare-review-formula-adjusted-inflation-commuters-bus-train-3442296?cid=FBcna
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[10:10 am, 26/04/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: The formula has already been decided and would be implemented.
I'm just wondering if there's a need for our feedback?
Perhaps ask us in 4.8yrs later when the formula is going to be tweaked again or maybe 2-3 months before the formula is going to be changed.
[10:10 am, 26/04/2023] +~L: We should look at the revenue from CoE, and how much that subsidises the PT fares. I would like to see a correlation between CoE revenue and PT fare adjustments.
[10:11 am, 26/04/2023] +~L: Also the use of Concession Fares is effective and can be a good lever to use to ensure those who are not working and on lower household incomes can continue to enjoy very low cost PT.
[10:11 am, 26/04/2023] +Caleb: +1
[10:14 am, 26/04/2023] +~L: Is there any guidance for how operators can be more efficient. I'd hope they were constantly looking at that anyway. There is a danger they just reduce wages, and/or personnel, which doesn't benefit anyone. We don't want them to reduce costs and create safety issues, reduce service or make people unemployed.
How does the Gov expect the 0.1% reduction in costs to impact the service?
[10:14 am, 26/04/2023] +SL: A further suggestion from a 3rd party lense for the benefit of everyone in future since we all are using public transport.
[10:15 am, 26/04/2023] +SL: It is a continuous improvement, I guess.
[10:15 am, 26/04/2023] +~L: I'd be interested to know who in Gov regularly uses and depends on PT, especially the Transport minister.
[10:16 am, 26/04/2023] +~L: It's an excellent service, and deserves subsidies, since it is an essential part of life and good for economic prosperity, social harmony and tourism.
[10:17 am, 26/04/2023] +~L: I think PT deserves our full support and we should be first looking to save costs elsewhere.
[10:26 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: "The Games of Moving People"
"Human movements and migrations are vast and can be in a variety of modes, from solo walking, driving, cruising, flying and to mass commuting,...each mode carries a cost and benefit marker/market and the higher the capacity/frequency of movement will cost more and not necessarily beneficial to some or all...?"
- - anonymity
[10:29 am, 26/04/2023] +TD: Do something about the road hogging Spandex Kamikaze cyclist vermin please.
[10:31 am, 26/04/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: Sometimes I just don't know how LTA is able to justify the building of certain projects but I'm very appreciative that they did.
There's no way they can justify it based on monetary aspects. Example is the Jurong circular bridge which probably cost millions to construct that's used by relatively few cyclists. A cheaper construction would just be steps for pedestrians and force cyclists to carry/push their bikes up. But LTA built the circular ramp to make it easy for cyclists to be able to cycle all they way up the top. It's shows forward thinking as it allows for wheelchairs/PMDs to make it across easily and safely.
So I currently trust our civil service to do the right thing.
[10:42 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Kenneth,
These Public transport systems will always evolve, the efficiency will drive either costs or luckily profits. It can be a losing game!
Today, the formula is only good for the next two years!
One is energy transition costs, newer and proven technologies, and the other is capacity per day and per month and per year.
Therefore, the idea here is to continuously look out for the unknown variables as well as the predictably ones.
For example, an underground road, a road surface or a flyover road; each has the costs, with the underground road being the costliest, from the baseline line of 50%+.
Thank you for bringing it up.
[10:48 am, 26/04/2023] +Rama: None!
[10:48 am, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Yes
[10:53 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: When we speak about PT or public transportation...
We are dealing with the longer if not the longest time line of planning, implementation and maintenance!
It is a long term game!
Thank you.
[10:54 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Plus renewal too!
Reimagine and rebuilding!
Remembering that concept of DEMOGRAPHY?
Thank you.
[10:55 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: What are the costs of a lone cyclist ?
What are the costs of a car owner?
What are the costs of a nation's internal transportation?
[11:00 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: What if an increase of say 10 cents, the public bus fare or the MRT?
Do we assume that the bus and MRT operators will reap a windfall from these multiples of ten cents?
Per person, per trip, per cost, per month and count onto the top of things?
Thank you.
Please do not be mistaken as non sensitive with regards to the cost of livings.
Fact or fake, it doesn't matter! Should a country Public transport falls Short of efficiency and less of expectations, what will be the scenarios?
Let's imagine all of it?
Chaos, road jamming and full of frustrate people from the joggers, commuters to the drivers!
Thank you.
[11:00 am, 26/04/2023] +SL: Is the WI figure covered those self-employed, part timer, and full time NS personnel?
[11:01 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: How about the disabled people in wheelchairs?
Thank you SL for categorizing things!
[11:12 am, 26/04/2023] +SL: 0.1 percent of PC, will it really push for an increase in productivity? π€
[11:21 am, 26/04/2023] +SL: Disabled persons, seniors, and students are covered by concession cards. However, it is unclear whether the wi cover the group I mentioned as the economic activity changed in these few years as my understanding of the mean wages Index covered full-time employees only. I might be wrong. looking for advice.
[11:28 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: 26 April, 2023
"The Choo-Choo Trains Story of SG"
Years ago, the MRT was heavily crucified by the public for the lack of maintenance that led to many malfunctions and trains stoppages! There was even criticism of poor succession planning; this case was the retirements of many senior staff that perhaps added to the loss of valuable experience of there senior staffs and the Junior ones were not able to bridge and or to comprehend the extensive and complexity of these multiple parts of the function of electric, electronic and mechanical interface!
Yes, lack of maintenance was/is, no excuse!
Looking back in time and starring it today, our MRT infrastructures have transformed and improved with lesser breakdowns compared to the last five years though it stil…
[11:42 am, 26/04/2023] +SL: Our government leaders did and continue to do a great job to let us have the best public transport in this world. Also don't forget the public transport operators that run the system and improvement can be seen over the years. The next phase maybe is seeing how these service providers can improve further in quality, and continue giving us affordable fair.
[11:44 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Hi SL,
Another transformation in progress...
We have ordered 400 electric buses and maybe in the near future autonomous drivers (6G) in less congested routes and areas!
Thank you.
[11:44 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Example of costs and or benefits!
[11:45 am, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: S’pore to get 400 new electric buses: Is less air pollution worth the higher costs?
https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/new-electric-buses-is-less-air-pollution-worth-the-higher-costs
[0:03 pm, 26/04/2023] +~L: Yes, definitely worth it. We save money and improve quality of life by people not getting respiratory diseases from the exhaust fumes chocking us at bus stops....! Electric Tech will continually improve. Singapore can be a world leader in Elec-Tech vehicles.
[0:03 pm, 26/04/2023] +~L: Yes, agreed!
[0:09 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Electric buses align with the green and sustainability policy of our government. The foresight from our leaders in caring for our mother earth, Singapore is leading this in this region and is the role model. ππ
[0:10 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: What makes SG ticks and triumph over many nations or mega cities?
One, is security within our parameters!
Two, the climate and weather, both are mild and manageable!
Three, our policies and people are generally stable and predictable!
That's what makes SG a safer haven!
[0:17 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Four basics:
Eat, Sleep, Work (learn) and Mobile.
So long these 4 important things are accessible and affordable, it will be alright to more than 80% of any population!
[0:17 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Hawker food, Public housing, public transport and institutions of learning and job opportunities!
[0:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Guard these basics well..., there is no reason to oppose and all the propositions will emerge as one energized people, aka social compact?
Who needs opposition unless?
[0:22 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Don't waste time with pathetic opposition!
[0:23 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Checks and Balances...
Unbalanced or continue to check or all balanced!
This transport issue, is it balanced or unbalanced or needs everyone to check and balance it!
So how to balance this big weighing scale of costs, BENEFITS and public perceptions?
Calling policymakers...!
[0:27 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: From babies to the teens and the seniors are receivers of goods and services.
The bulk of adults (adulthood), they are the contributors of our existential and our existence as a nation!
[0:36 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Ownself check ownself, discipline ownself, promote is not the way!
[0:39 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Is our public transport ready or Future built for climate change?
Heavy rain pouring will cause thousands of commuters soaking wet or stuck at the MRT stations , bus Depot or bus stops unable to transit to work, to school or to activity!
How about the hot scorching sun?
Thank you.
[0:40 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Self checks perhaps referring to Individuals and not so for the policymakers...
Thank you.
[0:41 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Have diversity when crucial decisions in the making!
At multiple levels of discussions to find not only solutions but the blindspots that even experts may fail to see!
Thank you.
[0:42 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Grey area when not reported openly and fairly by sph/mediacorp
[0:42 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Public and policymakers, hand in hand in a compact set-up!
[0:43 pm, 26/04/2023] +~L: Healthcare too :)
[0:44 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Andrew,
In previous chat, anonymity mentioned about the concept of Fact or fake or fair or unfair; it is an illusion!
An illusion doesn't mean it's not in existence!
It is more than the millions of brains and eyes could comprehend and digest, aka information!
Thank you for bringing it up.
[0:48 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Yes, healthcare, especially for our ageing citizens!
The younger generations will see and learn these interventions of life and life stations!
So what is hope and how about aspiration and lastly trying to compact our society as One united people!
It is not an illusion, it is possible to achieve but the pain to BALANCE all these social challenges must start NOW, for the future can never be known! Aka unknowns unless we have the abilities to "remotely view" the Future?
Thank you for bringing this important fact of life.
[0:51 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: One MEANS is...
Let's not stop these Public consultations stop soon, by this June or by the end of 2023?
"You see, life goes on and on and life changes now and thereafter, it is paramount to continue these Social engagements or you are on the next path of Out of Touch and the rest will be History...?"
- - anonymity
[0:57 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Key is all of us are HUMAN, ...
Even Lai Tzu, to some was a living sage!
In Short, no human is an expert!
In unison, perhaps, will be the beginning of a force! A force with good intentions and not otherwise dealing with unintended MEANS!
Thank you
To all policymakers, especially the young, the bright and smart ones..
"Never forget the origin and never forget the power of unity; for whatsoever things, tangible or intangible, from a simple decision to a relationship; think more and embrace compassion and continuity. . For life ITSELF is flowing non-stop and you happen to be in this game of planning on behalf of a nation, that's so important!"
- - Yours Sincere, Anonymity
[0:59 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: It is so easy to win all hearts and all souls!
It is even easier to win over your opponents, lock, stock and barrel!
How to do it?
Who needs opposition when you can find the opposites!
BEYOND Reality
..!
Thank you.
[1:01 pm, 26/04/2023] +Poh S Lim: The formula for the calculation of fares by the PTC is much too complex for the layman to comprehend and even so the data available for any meaningful analysis is limited as well as too dynamic that we just have to accept at face value that the PTC is fixing the fares in good faith for the public.
Concessional fares to protect vulnerable populations of customers such as the unemployed is good but it places a higher burden on the rest of commuters. Nevertheless concessional fares are necessary as I believe most people will consider freedom to travel in affordable cost as a fundamental ‘right’ in today’s modern society.
[1:02 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: I personally think it's just a cover to justify price increases . Its ironical that the members of the PTC are the type that do not take public transport and you don't actually have any commuters inside it
[1:02 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Complexity in play...
Can also be simplistic too!
Thanks for bringing it up.
[1:03 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Price increases are inevitable!
How to win hearts and souls?
It is more than PR and marketing!
[1:04 pm, 26/04/2023] +Caleb: +1
[1:04 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Unfortunately, it's nothing but PR and marketing
[1:04 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: U can't win hearts and souls when the issue is the wallet
[1:05 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: No hearts and souls there
[1:06 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Using a Hammer to remove a punch of sunk screws?
Using an electric drill to remove these Rusty and embedded screws?
Or using a saw to cut through these holes?
The idea is there are many ways to solve a hardened and stubborn fixture!
Thank you.
[1:07 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: What are u referring to as a hardened and stubborn fixture ?
[1:08 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: The fact that pple cannot accept price increases ?
[1:08 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: The solution is actually simple
[1:08 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Ensure wage increase keeps up with costs
[1:09 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: If not, then you can never remove pple's concerns about the wallet. Sugercoating or changing the tools only goes so far
[1:09 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: By increasing the price of your cake,...
Assuming you will gain more buyers, the faster way of baking and meeting demand 24/7 or your customers will have not much choices but to continue to buy your cakes?
[1:11 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: U can include massage chairs all you like or faster frequency but there is a limit to how much u can increase value. Those who take public transport are usually those who already don't have other choices short go walking or cycling to work
[1:11 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: So for them cost is still the bottom line. I also find it hard to imagine adding all these " niceties" will not load more costs on the consumer
[1:12 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Public transport is still affordable, that's fact!
[1:12 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: This are usually done more for premium services where they want to differentiate themselves from a cheaper offering
[1:12 pm, 26/04/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: I don’t expect out government leaders to run day to day operations but hv the ability to choose the correct candidate to run the organisation.
For SMRT, previous 2 choices were bad ones. How can career SAF commanders who know next to nothing about train operations run SMRT? These saf commanders brought in people they trusted, also from saf who didn’t know trains.
At least gov got the correct person this time. I hope gov learn from this and don’t make same errors.
[1:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: This doesn't mean it's a justification to hence increase prices. It is a slippery slope
[1:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Work to increase wages
[1:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Then everyone wins
[1:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Not saying it's easy of course
[1:15 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Slippery and friction?
[1:17 pm, 26/04/2023] +Jimmy Chew: What's most important is how to keep prices down because it's always up even when oil prices are down..we trust the government and the body that does it. It all depends on the people involved how innovative they are. Everyone can simply solve it by raising prices so no amount of calculations can convince us. We know when you're playing with numbers. Only impact would be lost trust in government
[1:18 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: How to build extra capacity or ridership?
Borrow from your neighbor?... Malaysia -SG HSR!
[1:18 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: SG uses LNG
[1:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Marginal increase cannot be avoided
[1:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: This may lead to a wages-price spiral that perpetual cycling on rising wages with rising living costs and vice verse till the whole economic system breaks apart, i.e., economic collapse.
[1:22 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Breakdowns or losen of the social compact..
[1:22 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: From an economic Activity perspective, continued rising prices will lead to the demand for wages increasing.
[1:24 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Arguably, structures and linkages of SG micro economies on the whole are stable!
Human to human aspect is another matter that needs closer attention to it.
Thank you.
[1:26 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: As per an IMF article in aug 2021, Economic causes are one of the drivers of social unrest... π±
[1:52 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Lets switch to higher gear to discuss and to explore...
China, from 2008 to 2020, spent (in red) over $900 billion on their domestic railway systems, commonly known as the HSR.
Flip it?
If we scale down to our systems of transportation from bikes, cars, buses and trains, what were the costs and benefits from 2008 to 2020? And 2020 happened to be in the mist of the pandemic!
[1:54 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: The period to include recessions, slowed down and growths...
[1:54 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Let's switch to higher gear and discuss.
Thank you.
[2:00 pm, 26/04/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
On Tuesday (25 Apr), the Public Transport Council announced that the formula used to determine public transport fares has been adjusted to include two fixed components to reduce swings in fare changes.
π¬ What are your views on the new formula to determine public transport fares? How can the Government balance fare affordability while ensuring the financial sustainability of public transport operators?
In August 2022, PTC was tasked with reviewing the fare adjustment formula to account for changes in commuting patterns, and to balance fare affordability and the financial sustainability of the public transport sector. Such reviews typically take place every five years.
The review was done after engaging with commuters in several focus groups …
[3:11 pm, 26/04/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Firstly, cannot really comment on the formula - which I believe the public transport fare is derived from a complex pricing math model.
This is the domain of the transport specialist.
2. However, coming from a logical point of view, the following parameters would have build into the pricing formula to ensure transport fare is affordable and transport operators business is sustainable :-
a. Price affordability to commuters
b. Operating costs of transport operators
The operating costs of transport operators should take into account :-
i. Efficiency in operation (without unnecessary wastage) that should take into account :-
- Labour cost
- Automation to beef up productivity and reduce oversize manpower cost
- Ability to achieve SLA (Service Level Agreement) to commuters - formulated by Transport Authority in tandem to customer satisfaction
- Energy efficiency
- Maintenance cost
- Revenue from non-transport source - such as advertisement, leasing out of retail spaces etc.
- Government subsidies on vulnerable groups such as students, elderly, disabilities, lower-wage income group.
ii. Factor in inflation due to unexpected global supply disruption
- Energy price hike
- Material (eg. spare parts) price hike
2. As long as the complex public transport pricing math model formula take all the above into account ---- then it will be an objective, rational, sustainable and fair pricing formula --- as it will have address 2 important objectives :-
a. Price affordability to commuters
b. Business sustainability to transport operators.
[3:29 pm, 26/04/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
3. Of course, commuter ridership and commuter volume - will determine the viability of the public transport.
The more people take public transport - the lower the transport fare - as higher fare revenue - will make transport operators more profitable - hence less incentive to raise transport fare to cover transport operating cost.
4. Some MRT lines are heavily used - eg. Red line, Green line, Orange line - while some lines are light - less passengers.
- Not sure how will this translate into transport fare for the various lines.
- The heavily patronized lines will have subsidise the more lightly used lines. But I noticed most of the time, the lightly used lines are redundant lines to those heavily used lines.
Eg. Brown line - TEL line - can also go Orchard and Dhoby Gaut - backing up Red line and the Orange line.
- So if the more commuters take the newer backup lightly used lines - than there commuting pattern will be more evenly distributed - and reducing cross subsidy across the line ----- just some mulling thoughts.
[3:29 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: 26 April, 2023
An Inclusive Decision-Making Model?
Today, our people have reached a higher level of education standards and most citizens are educated if not highly educated!
Besides reaching out to the thousands of citizens for their opinions or views on various issues, that is one good way, a good starting point to connect and engage our citizens - REACH!
What is a divest committee?
Diversity can mean all walks of life; it includes the members of the public from the young, the middle age, the seniors, Experts and Policymakers.
Up to 25% will be members of the public with NO political party affiliations NOR representing any interest group, of sound minded with minimum education from any IHL.
An example elsewhere, the jury system. The jury that pre…
[3:38 pm, 26/04/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Since on the topic of transport - just one slight mention - with the soaring COE prices across the categories - there are some voices to urge "allow average Singaporeans to own car" -- for social needs such as the needs to send babies to grandparents, nurseries to take care so both parents can worketc, send elderlies to see doctors, buy groceries for those household with inconvenience public transport (those stay in ulu areas) or those work in ulu areas.
2. Some of this voice feel that maybe creating another extra category that meet this criteria to bid for COE reserve for Singaporean citizens only - and put a maximum COE cap below $60,000.
[3:41 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Any consideration to expand the car-sharing on car petrol - the current car rental for an electricity model is expensive for item #2?
[3:42 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Current petrol car-sharing platforms do not have sufficient vehicles for sharing to cater to the short-period demand in item #2.
[3:45 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Typo, I means to meet demand for item # 1 instead of 2.
[3:46 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: My big finger pressed the wrong keypad.
[3:47 pm, 26/04/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Well, I feel that allowing some valves for some household to get access to cars maybe needed though I support car light - using public transport.
I no longer own cars though I have been driving cars for decades.
Public transport now serve me fine.
But I do see the value of access to cars for some household such as the examples I listed above.
So addressing the soaring coe may be needed.
Else it may unnecessary turn into a political issue which we should minimise - as the leadership transition is vital for our future survival at the backdrop of very challenging external environment.
[3:47 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Babies and seniors..
[4:00 pm, 26/04/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
On Tuesday (25 Apr), the Public Transport Council announced that the formula used to determine public transport fares has been adjusted to include two fixed components to reduce swings in fare changes.
π¬ What are your views on the new formula to determine public transport fares? How can the Government balance fare affordability while ensuring the financial sustainability of public transport operators?
In August 2022, PTC was tasked with reviewing the fare adjustment formula to account for changes in commuting patterns, and to balance fare affordability and the financial sustainability of the public transport sector. Such reviews typically take place every five years.
The review was done after engaging with commuters in several focus groups …
[4:02 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: So, u mean keep wages low and keep hiking prices ? That isn't gonna work either
[4:05 pm, 26/04/2023] +William: If the gov fully supports 100%, WFH would affect us lesser. (Jobs that able)
And suggest giving a concessions card, which my wife got it but not me π, to those earning less than 60k yearly. π
[4:05 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Car lite is good as it is environmentally friendly, discourages waste, and maintains sustainability, an example: A 3 generations family with grandparents and babies may need a vehicle for bonding activities during the weekend, and it is challenging to use public bus and train with the number of members in the household with the different aging group.
The only option is car renting, private hire, and taxi for the family. Theoretically, this will discourage the family from visiting various locations on the same day. I m not sure consumer activity, bonding with relatives and friends will be affected as well from a behavioral perspective.
[4:08 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: The wage increment should be aligned with productivity increase for sustainability. Wages increment should not be the solution for a price increase.
[4:09 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: I can also turn it around and say that business productively can be increased to avoid increasing costs
[4:09 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: And hence prices
[4:09 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Of course I m not asking for wage increase with business growth
[4:10 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: But just increasing prices and keep wages flat just means more profits for business owners
[4:10 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: As someone astutely mentioned
[4:10 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: When oil goes up price goes up, when oil goes down, prices stay up because " there are other costs involved "
[4:11 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Without
[4:12 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Its seductive messaging that is trotted out too often in Singapore . Wages must be low or businesses will be fleeing the country , yet u don't hear the same warnings when prices keep going up
[4:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: 26 April, 2023
"Assumptions and assuming...?"
To laymen, this transport formula is meaningless; the unintended outcome is a common belief that this formula will always mean fare increase?
The communication of this formula should be better explained in simple examples of the variables + fixed and each variable, the meaning and how it arrived as one element of this formula.
To educate the public this formula so that they will accept and agree with the fare increase, the reasons and the use of this money.
As for any fare decrease, not much to explain about?
[4:15 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Does anyone know who comprises of the PTC? I brought up the point just now that the members are all relatively well off people who prob drive to work. Won't it make sense to have some actually commuters inside the committee?
[4:17 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Is the price increased because the cost of material/goods import going up, which factors cannot be controlled by businesses in Singapore, which results in the cost being passed down to the consumers?
[4:18 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Good question but does the PTC share this ?
[4:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: The composition has somewhat changed since former district judge Richard Magnus stepped down recently. However, no clear indication of actual transport commuters in the committee.
[4:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: I think most are elites leh
[4:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: I mean one of the members I'd a judge π
[4:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Is
[4:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: 26 April, 2023
An Inclusive Decision-Making Model?
Today, our people have reached a higher level of education standards and most citizens are educated if not highly educated!
Besides reaching out to the thousands of citizens for their opinions or views on various issues, that is one good way, a good starting point to connect and engage our citizens - REACH!
What is a divest committee?
Diversity can mean all walks of life; it includes the members of the public from the young, the middle age, the seniors, Experts and Policymakers.
Up to 25% will be members of the public with NO political party affiliations NOR representing any interest group, of sound minded with minimum education from any IHL.
An example elsewhere, the jury system. The jury that pre…
[4:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: The 0.5 ccpi + 0.4 wi + 0.1 ei in PT computation reflect this.
[4:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: What does those mean ?
[4:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Again, how are those ccpi and ei calculated
[4:21 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: How much profit is set for the transport companies ?
[4:22 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Which are the main costs that businesses cannot control and have to be passed to consumers
[4:22 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Ccpi is the core cpi published by govt. Like wise i think the energy index is from govt statistic.
[4:23 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Now, not sure
[4:23 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Then u also ask, how can consumers bear those costs. Won't the consumers similarly be bearing the same increased costs that they have no control . Like fuel goes up, power bills also goes up for eg
[4:23 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: So who helps them?
[4:23 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Double whammy
[4:24 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: If u think about it
[4:24 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: If costs are going up, then companies are charging their customer more by passing the cost down
[4:24 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Won't they be then paying their employees more since they will make more money ?
[4:25 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: If not, then where is the money going ?
[4:44 pm, 26/04/2023] +~L: Shareholders pockets. C Suite bonuses.
[4:45 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Yeah
[4:52 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/inflation-energy-and-wage-costs-to-have-larger-impact-on-fare-adjustments-than-formula-changes-analysts
[4:56 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: 26 April, 2023
How about increasing the road tax for luxury cars, followed by big capacity or high value motorbikes? Up to $1,000 annual road tax payable for these big cars. Commercial vehicles unchanged.
How about ERP for luxury cars and high-end motorcycles? Up to $8 per entry and motorcycles at $2 per entry, the whole day?
These luxury fees collected can help towards the public transport expenses.
[4:56 pm, 26/04/2023] +TD: This is good to know
[4:56 pm, 26/04/2023] +Caleb: +1
[4:57 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Robinhood concept...
Tax the abled folks and help the folks in need!
[4:59 pm, 26/04/2023] +TD: Should just implement COE and road tax for bicycles
[5:00 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: MPA should look at the leisure boat fees too.
Under 50 feet, above 50 feets, more than 100 feet and lastly, the big fat ones!
Are these taxable avenues?
[5:01 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Subject to Vicom tests?
[5:02 pm, 26/04/2023] +Fulgrim: Did the employees get good raises ? π€£
[5:04 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Not sure but depends on definition of good raises!?
[5:05 pm, 26/04/2023] +TD: And only on Road going bicycles. Need plates and insurance as well
[5:06 pm, 26/04/2023] +TD: Since a lot of these AMDK can drop 5 figure sums on a bicycle, I don't see why they cant top up for COE and insurance if they die die want to use the roads
[5:10 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: because bicycle is a form of health exercise espically after our PM tok to biking in a few of his walk about people start thinking is a form of endorsement followed by a few other mps
[5:10 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: but these govt people did not endorse them to ride like idiots in their so call tour de merlion
[5:11 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: instead PCN riding was great encourage but the tour de merlion riders find it too crowded and kiddy
[5:11 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: well suggestion is tear away the PCN build so many for wat
[5:12 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: expand the road
[5:12 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: let more car and cyclist fight over the limited space
[5:12 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Taxi and Private hired fares going up too? Hope not?
Are the stakeholders like private hired cars and taxis allowing a differentiation price for seniors and the disabled people. These vulnerable people are the most affected by this increase in taxi and Private hired way of moving around!
During off-peak, 20% discount from the peak prices?
By issuing vouchers to offset transport cost may not solve the longer term of utility.
[5:12 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: those who wanna tour de france make then put on erp device too and place erp gantry on those routes by tour de merlion
[5:13 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: taxi far had never been up for so many donkey years till recently
[5:13 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: all thank to pte hirers market
[5:13 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: $2 per ERP entry.
[5:13 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: look public should not complaint about PHV cos public were the one to push the govt to open up
[5:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: i remember durin gthe pre covid days for concerts nites
[5:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: pax are paying up to 300 per trip from changi to town
[5:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: taxi ... well for limo is control price per trip about 60-70 that time
[5:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: There is always a rational price to pay for services or goods...
[5:14 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: normalc taxi we are the one eating grass meter only
[5:15 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: but during those times did anyone say expansive nil
[5:15 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: instead they claim taxi is expensive till today
[5:15 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: so for those who say taxi is expensive please continue to support ur dear PHV cos they are the one that sets the bar for dynamic pricing dun blame the taxi
[5:16 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: if not happy still please take the MRT or bus
[5:18 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: This Public transport price adjustment exercise will no doubt cause unhappiness, though it will be a short spell of no longer than 6 months! That's how typical human memory works!
After the increase comes all related or non related inflation of prices from 5% onwards. That's called market sentiments in play!
It is impossible to police any profiteers because it is a dynamic Economic system all in play!
[5:18 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: also when we talk about increased for PT note IT DOES NOT INCLUDE PHV AND TAXI
[5:18 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Consumers' decide...
[5:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: remember taxi is a luxury transport is not under public tansport
[5:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Sooner or later, its an ecosystem!
[5:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: that is one o fthe reason for donkey years the fair for taxi was at so low till many taxi drivers got pissed off
[5:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: u tell that to the govt lor
[5:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Sick elderly need taxi or PVD to transit to doctor.
[5:19 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: it will never be if will long ago will be induced as public transport
[5:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Various MEANS of transiting
[5:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: is a mode of transport but dun understand why cannot be public transport for taxi
[5:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: An ecosystem
[5:20 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: mabe is held by a pte ltd
[5:21 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Grab or NTUC or Private bus operators?
[5:21 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: maybe
[5:21 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: "Human movements and migrations are vast and can be in a variety of modes, from solo walking, driving, cruising, flying and to mass commuting,...each mode carries a cost and benefit marker/market and the higher the capacity/frequency of movement will cost more and not necessarily beneficial to some or all...?"
- - anonymity
[5:21 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: grab is 100% pte ltd
[5:22 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: of cos we dun need to know who are one of the major share holder
[5:25 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Comparatively to bus or MRT, taxis are the premium service of transportation.
It is also an important vehicle mode of transport.
[5:25 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: impt no reh is been so mis used and misunderstand
[5:25 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Friction creates accident
[5:25 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: only thos ein the inudstry will know
[5:26 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: frankly residents here all very entitle mindset
[5:26 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: so let them fight good for hospital, workshop, insurance
[5:27 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: if wanna talk about public transport be sure to up the delivery of service first
[5:27 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: breakdown of any form should not exist
[5:28 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: look at japan rail system (one of the best and insane on time and hardly breakdown)
[5:28 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Petroleum can be an addiction?
In the 1900, petroleum led the world from mechanization to industrialisation.
In 2000 and onto 2100, renewable energy will lead to the Digitisation of this world.
So how are the old petroleum owners gonna react or transform themselves?
[5:29 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: In Search of perfection...
[5:30 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Higher costs because of low ridership.
Well maintained and costly too.
[5:30 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Frictions create fruition.
[5:32 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: When the clock turns midnight, so will the fare go up 50%!
Your heart pumps a bit faster too, trying to beat the clock?
[5:33 pm, 26/04/2023] +Uncle Law: Public Transport operators should not be a profit driven company. It should be based on sustainability in ensuring profits goes back to upskill of staffs, maintenance and etc.
And not go back as bonus or high salary for the management or board of directors.
[5:35 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: i am refering to PHV surge fare.....
[5:38 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: PHV uses analytics according to supply, demand and timing vs competitors.
Thank you.
[5:39 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Not for profit?
NGOs?
[5:39 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: the point i am driving is consumers not PHV companies they can do whatever high tech stuff but hardly u hear people screaming phv is expansive
[5:39 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Uncle Law, hope things are great at your end!
[5:39 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Willing to pay
[5:40 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: when the fare they are paying is crazy at times yet people still willing to pay compare to taxi fare in teh end taxi got it for being expensive
[5:40 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: is not the willingness to pay is the mindset
[5:40 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: 300/ 120
[5:40 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: 40 / 80
[5:40 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Click and grab a cab!
[5:40 pm, 26/04/2023] +Uncle Law: Thanks. Busy with work.
[5:40 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: booking fee of 3.3 people say expesnive but the journey might cos less than a phv ride
[5:41 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: then they will say no cab
[5:41 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: is the hands of the public that drive our cab population down to under sub 10k now
[5:41 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: What if the cabbies became a grab?
[5:41 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: while phv thanks to the public is more triple more than cab
[5:41 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Ageing too
[5:42 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: how aging are our cabby age
[5:42 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: u see more and more pme joining them
[5:42 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: That's a revelation!
[5:42 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: till u in the industry than uwill know how blood sucking grab is
[5:43 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: that's not a good news for pme to join taxi or grab
[5:43 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: but does the govt care ?
[5:43 pm, 26/04/2023] +Ah Heng: is still a job / occupation
[5:43 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Structural unemployment?
[5:43 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Yes, a proper way of making a living, though is tough!
[6:00 pm, 26/04/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
On Tuesday (25 Apr), the Public Transport Council announced that the formula used to determine public transport fares has been adjusted to include two fixed components to reduce swings in fare changes.
π¬ What are your views on the new formula to determine public transport fares? How can the Government balance fare affordability while ensuring the financial sustainability of public transport operators?
In August 2022, PTC was tasked with reviewing the fare adjustment formula to account for changes in commuting patterns, and to balance fare affordability and the financial sustainability of the public transport sector. Such reviews typically take place every five years.
The review was done after engaging with commuters in several focus groups …
[6:23 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: Y
[6:23 pm, 26/04/2023] +Rama: π€·♂️
[6:26 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Tokyo metrol cost average 250 JPY, it is about 2.50 SGD equavalent in today fx rate. It is much more expensive as compared to Singapore.
[6:29 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: Renewable will only lead when scientists/investors resolve the energy storage issue. Otherwise, it remains an alternative to fossil fuels.
[6:29 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Thanks SL for digging the data!
[6:30 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Next 20 years in transition to transform and get rid of petroleum...
[6:32 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: What if MRT and public buses are barely making or it has all along losing money (aka tampa Wang)?
These infrastructures are not cheap to run, to maintain and to upgrade!
[6:32 pm, 26/04/2023] +SL: The ultimate goal of lower down the use of fossil fuels is achievable.. Timeline is Those that are interesting.
[6:33 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: Transformations and thereafter generative!
Thanks SL for bringing it up.
[6:46 pm, 26/04/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
[6:55 pm, 26/04/2023] +Smiley face: 26 April, 2023
To: Our Distinguished Leaders, PTC and All Honorable Members
"The Games of Moving People"
"Human movements and migrations are vast and can be in a variety of modes, from solo walking, driving, cruising, flying and to mass commuting,...each mode carries a cost and benefit marker/market and the higher the capacity and frequency of movements will cost more and not necessarily beneficial to some or all,...Is it a producer's surplus or consumers benefitting the most?"
- - anonymity
China:
The world's longest, biggest and most ambitious rail project - HSR!
This over a billion people country has proven time after time that the social costs and the economic benefits may not always be aligned, worse it brings more deficit than profits! This instance is the high speed rail system that spans more than 40,000km with 31 rail lines and only 5 of which are breaking even; this dynamic transportation game of moving people!
So what's the current benefits and importantly, the costs?
Taken from the Bureau of Statistics of China, the entirety of the HSR has been running into the red and the cumulated loss was $900 billions from 2008 to 2020 and it's counting.
The obvious benefits are numerous from convenience to connectivity. For commuters who are not rushing, they can choose an overnight Shenzhen to Shanghai train which cost $139 that saves one nite of hotel stay in Shanghai or more savings for not taking a flight! That's consumers' benefits or consumers' surplus!
And how about other mega projects like the Three Gouges dam, the North-South water transfer project and the HK-ZH-MO bridge? All of these people moving projects are crucial infrastructures to gain at the same time all of these examples carries a continuous costs to China!
Are these affordable projects? In the longer run or it will amortize itself over time and what experts and people will call it, on the hindsight, it's WORTHINESS?
Afterwords:
"The Choo-Choo Trains Story of SG"
Years ago, the MRT was heavily crucified by the public for the lack of maintenance that led to many malfunctions and trains stoppages! There was even criticism of poor succession planning; this case was the retirements of many senior staff that perhaps added to the loss of valuable experience of there senior staffs and the Junior ones were not able to bridge and or to comprehend the extensive and complexity of these multiple parts of the function of electric, electronic and mechanical interface!
Yes, lack of maintenance was/is, no excuse!
Looking back in time and starring it today, our MRT infrastructures have transformed and improved with lesser breakdowns compared to the last five years though it still has its hicks up now and then!
And yes, the retail space that was once incrementally purpose built is adding to the revenue of MRTC (established 1983)!
And not to forget, a token of appreciation to President Ong, Min Mah, Min Khaw and the past Ministers by ensuring continuity and enduring the public scrutiny - our Choo-Choo trains!
Power shutdown at North-South, East-West lines: Past major train disruptions
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/power-shutdown-at-north-south-east-west-lines-past-major-train-disruptions
https://mothership.sg/2015/07/the-worst-mrt-breakdown-in-spores-history-occurred-on-smrts-16th-annual-general-meeting-on-7715/#:~:text=Possibly%20the%20worst%20MRT%20breakdown,SMRT's%2016th%20Annual%20General%20Meeting.
Tender called for 400 electric buses in the largest purchase of its kind by LTA
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/tender-called-for-400-electric-buses-in-the-largest-purchase-of-its-kind-by-lta
[7:00 pm, 26/04/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
=====
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