REACH 286 - What are some of the challenges you face adapting to the vaccination-differentiated measures so far? How do you think we can protect the vulnerable and unvaccinated while ensuring minimal disruptions to daily life? (SK)
20 Oct 2021 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:51 am, 20/10/2021] +REACH: Greetings from REACH
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Megan π
[9:59 am, 20/10/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors,
Welcome back! π
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Megan π
[10:01 am, 20/10/2021] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
More than 800 people were found to have been eating at hawker centres in the past week despite not being fully vaccinated against COVID-19, ahead of enforcement action against such diners kicking in from Wednesday (Oct 20). Meanwhile, 92 people were caught for flouting COVID-19 safe management measures at hawker centres between Friday and Sunday last week. The offences include gathering in groups of more than two, not maintaining a safe distance of at least 1m and not wearing masks.
π¬ What are some of the challenges you face adapting to the vaccination-differentiated measures so far? How do you think we can protect the vulnerable and unvaccinated while ensuring minimal disruptions to daily life?
The week after new vaccination-differentiated measures were announced saw a rise in people getting their booster shots and first doses of the COVID-19 vaccine. The Ministry of Health (MOH) said on Monday night (Oct 18) that from Oct 9 to 15, about 17,000 people received their first dose of the COVID-19 vaccine under the national vaccination programme, while another 162,000 took their booster shots. In comparison, from Oct 2 to 8, about 11,000 people got their first dose of the vaccine under the national vaccination programme, while about 135,000 received their booster dose.
The Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) will send 70 of its medical, nursing and administrative personnel to help out at two COVID-19 community treatment facilities - a step up in the military's involvement in Singapore's battle against the coronavirus. "This is a national effort and the SAF will do its part," Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen wrote in a Facebook post on Tuesday (Oct 19). He said the SAF personnel will work with Woodlands Health and Tan Tock Seng Hospital staff in the coming months.
After almost two years of long working hours and being away from their loved ones for some doctors and nurses, the MOH has finally lifted the suspension on overseas leave application for all healthcare workers. Both private and public hospitals said that they are supportive of the new move and will take the necessary steps to keep patients and staff safe.
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/over-17000-get-first-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-after-new-vaccine-differentiated
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/over-800-diners-unvaccinated-against-covid-19-found-eating-at-hawker-centres-in-past-week
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/all-healthcare-workers-in-spore-allowed-to-apply-for-overseas-leave-moh-holdings
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/70-saf-medical-nursing-administrative-staff-to-help-at-covid-19-community-treatment
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/making-military-camps-more-ready-for-pandemics-on-the-agenda-dsta-ceo
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[10:28 am, 20/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Hi Reach Admin, can i suggest that you put the relevant link immediately after each summary? Visually, it will prevent confusion when reading the summaries. Just a minor suggestion
[10:37 am, 20/10/2021] +REACH: About 250 passengers arrive at Changi on first two flights under expanded VTL scheme
SINGAPORE - About 250 passengers landed at Changi Airport on Wednesday (Oct 20) morning, arriving on the first two flights under the expanded quarantine-free travel scheme for travellers vaccinated against Covid-19.
More: https://str.sg/3cWA
[10:38 am, 20/10/2021] +BL: No challenge because I only meet with vaccinated people. How to protect unvaccinated? Get vaccinated or stay home.
[10:41 am, 20/10/2021] +BL: The challenge now is how to have a social life.
[10:42 am, 20/10/2021] +Caleb: The challenge for me is how to be isolated in a room at home in a event I got COVID.
[10:43 am, 20/10/2021] +Caleb: can I be isolated in 2 rooms? Toggle between bedroom and study room?
[10:43 am, 20/10/2021] +BL: Despite all getting vaccinated and very few serious illnesses we are subject to very restrictive rules. I understand why; there are still unknowns and risk to our healthcare systems. However what is being done to mitigate a sudden rise in serious illness? What is the goal now?
[10:44 am, 20/10/2021] +BL: You need your own bedroom and bathroom. No mention of having additional rooms!
[10:45 am, 20/10/2021] +BL: Maybe a good example of where personal responsibility is a good option? Clearly you don't want to put others at risk.
[10:45 am, 20/10/2021] +BL: But there is a helpline and online chat you can check with.
[10:47 am, 20/10/2021] +Caleb: okay
[10:54 am, 20/10/2021] +Valli: HDB should be prepared for future pandemics.
Maybe in upcoming flats designs should have additional bedrooms with bathroom.
Instead of only one master bedroom with attach toilet, should plan for 2. ππ€£
[11:04 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: I think ultimately, everyone has to take responsibility and make their own judgement call. After almost 2 years, I think most of us would have a pretty idea on what to do to reduce transmission to others, Its not possible for the G/MOH to issue guidelines for every possible scenario/situation.
[11:16 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: It will be good if the Hdb architects understand mental health issues and various other needs of people serving QO at home, and that of their family who stay with them.
[11:20 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Perhaps bomb shelter can be improved so that we can hide inside to have video conference when there is endless hacking sound from renovating neighbors or road construction or babies crying.
[11:20 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Sorry went off topic a bit.
[11:23 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Or just use ear plugs? π€·♂️
[11:24 am, 20/10/2021] +Rama: π π€£π
[11:25 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Some older people have not received MOH sms, because not yet 6 mths. They walk-in to vaccination centres and managed to get their 3rd jabs. They are elderly people still working and are afraid of the mutating covid.
[11:27 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: I suppose this should be safe otherwise G will not allow them to have 3rd jab.
[11:28 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: I think the elderly who are still actively working (job cannot wfh) have influenced each other to faster go for 3rd jab to stay safe.
[11:30 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Then how to zoom π
[11:30 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Apple ipods have superb noise cancelling functionality
[11:30 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Using Dell computer leh
[11:31 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: not cheap.. but still a fraction of the cost of sound-proofing your flat
[11:31 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Apple ipods compatible with ANY device on leh ... there are other earphones with similar functionality as well
[11:32 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: even if you replace your Dell computer... still cheaper than cost of sound-proofing
[11:33 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: there are USB bluetooth dongles that cost a few dollars only in case your Dell computer does not have blustooth connectivity
[11:34 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Haha... I using old fashion wired earpc with my Dell.
[11:37 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Thanks for the suggestions Joseph, will consider when my Dell dies on me or when it is no longer compatible with window upgrades.
[11:43 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Most welcome... sometimes i also find myself wishing that my residence comes with better designed amenities, more space etc etc .. the daydreaming and creative thinking - for more practical solution - usually kicks in when I login to my internet banking to check my account balance.... π
[11:47 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: the daydreanibg *stops
[11:47 am, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Wah u so self reliant...look at personal resources. Never try to tell your grassroots leaders to feedback to advisor/MP.
[11:50 am, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: I have the habit of managing my own frivolous requests instead of troubling my MPs ... think its only fair .. or at least thats how I was brought up π
[11:51 am, 20/10/2021] +Smiley face: Queenstown to be Singapore's first health district with senior-friendly design, community programmes
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/queenstown-to-become-singapores-first-health-district-with-more-community
[11:54 am, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/uk-faces-calls-plan-b-094902150.html
UK faces calls for ‘Plan B’ with virus cases high and rising.
Freedom Day blame for infection spike.
Many scientists are pressing the British government to reimpose social restrictions and speed up booster vaccinations as coronavirus infection rates, already Europe’s highest, rise still further.
[11:54 am, 20/10/2021] +jimmy chew: haha.. good idea, but also another revenue making option.. every toilet will cost you to discharge water and waste.
[11:56 am, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Saudi Arabia eases Covid-19 curbs as daily cases fall below 100. https://www.straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-eases-covid-19-curbs-as-daily-cases-fall-below-100
[11:56 am, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/vaccines-masks-japan-puzzling-over-034037504.html
Vaccines, masks? Japan puzzling over sudden virus success.
Another country winning over Delta wave.
[11:58 am, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Britain falls behind Europe on Covid-19 as surge sparks call for probe into Delta Plus mutation. Britain reported 45,140 new cases on Sunday (Oct 17), the highest daily jump since mid-July, around when Prime Minister Boris Johnson authorised the removal of most Covid-19-related restrictions in what was dubbed "Freedom Day". https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/uk-covid-19-surge-sparks-call-for-probe-into-delta-plus-mutation
[11:58 am, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
US raises COVID-19 travel alert for Singapore to highest risk level.
The United States asking visitors to avoid travel to the country.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/covid-19-us-travel-alert-highest-risk-singapore-level-4-2253251
[0:00 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: I think the only other way to protect these people other than a lockdown is the current vaccinated differentiated measures + booster shots.
I think the current measures limit social interaction for unvaccinated people by a lot. I would also think those with vulnerable family members would naturally be more responsible in their daily lives.
Other than that there’s nothing much the general public can do. Anyway most of our movement alr limited by the 2 pax rule plus some percentage of the population is already undergoing weekly art/PCR test.
The biggest challenge is this 2 pax rule. Want to hang out with family or friends so difficult. The 2 pax rule is becoming quite ridiculous honestly. No intermingling between groups even when in open air area and wearing mask is extremely restrictive. Furthermore it kind of undermines the government message that covid will become endemic and sooner or later we will catch it. Since only vaccinated people can enter malls or do activity, then why still so much restriction? Since Low chance of serious illness when catching covid while vaccinated.
[0:05 pm, 20/10/2021] +Caleb: The key thing is hospital and ambulance are tight now bah
[0:06 pm, 20/10/2021] +Caleb: If they are not, can open up a bit.
[0:13 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Trajectory of serious illness keep spiking.
2. Hospital beds 1,600 set aside for covid patients exceeded - now 1,738.
To loosen any restrictions measures is suicidal and foolhardy.
UK Freedom Day show foolhardy reopening of their economy and social interaction is a flop.
[0:16 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Conversely, Denmark, Norway, UAE, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Japan - following discipline :-
a. High vaccination rate
b. Booster shot
c. Maintain restrictions measures
Have all emerge from the Delta wave towards endemic.
Singapore is facing a heightened upward infection trajectory.
Any loosening of restrictions measures will make us follow the UK footstep - a foolhardy decision & threaten many of our population lives.
[0:19 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Police take down the particulars of 5 secondary school students for gathering in 5 and playing football in a lockdown field.
[0:22 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So many deaths in just 1 month is an indication that further loosening of the current restrictions measures - will trigger more covid death in Singapore.
[0:23 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: This is my hope. That we understand the rules as guidelines and can use personal judgment. Like eating out with a child at the same table.
[0:23 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. "Every death is keenly felt by the government" say PM Lee.
2. Even 1 death is one too many.
[0:24 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Noise cancelling headphones. That's what I use now, only way I can WFH.
[0:25 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Yes, because they went to the other extreme and totally forgot about covid.
[0:25 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Question is why and how? Lower vaccination rate than SG and less restrictions.
[0:26 pm, 20/10/2021] +Caleb: Many students in uniform don't follow the 2 to a grp rule
[0:26 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Agreed.
[0:27 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Hmm sad that kids are not allowed to play sports outdoors
[0:28 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Yes UK is a bad example. But other countries are a good example. They are loving we covid, we are not. Is there any data available of where people are contracting the virus? What is the point of Safe entry if there is no data from it? If there is data available, please share so we can all help reduce the spread.
[0:28 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: *Living with covid
[0:29 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Not doing c actually, those countries are loosening restriction
[0:29 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Because they have beaten the pandemic.
We have not.
[0:29 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: But it's ok for basketball courts? This is an example of rules being enforced unnecessarily.
[0:30 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: How many cases ever of kids spreading the virus playing football in a field?
[0:30 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: How do you define beaten?
[0:30 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Group of 2 is the rules everywhere.
[0:30 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Hmm don’t think this is a fair list. Tbh we have a lot more restrictions than Denmark , Israel and Japan for sure.
Japan and Denmark had many covid cases and passed that trajectory. But SG didn’t do the same.
[0:31 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Low infection, low hospitalisation, low or no death.
[0:31 pm, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: Since Joseph and BL both had success with noise cancelling headphones. Will look into it in the upcoming 11.11 sale ππ
[0:31 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: One, maybe but not enforced. Two, is there evidence of kids spreading through playing football in a field? No
[0:31 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Define low
[0:32 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I recommend either ear buds (I have samsung) or over ear headphone (I have JBL)
[0:32 pm, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: think telling boys to stop playing football is like telling smokers not to smoke. Very difficult leh
[0:33 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/covid-19-cases-in-uae-drop-below-100-in-boost-to-post-virus-goals UAE one of the highest vaccinated Country in the World - declare covid pandemic over.
[0:33 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
This is the 3rd Countries in the world after Denmark, and Norway to do so.
Israel will be the next potential one after UAE.
[0:33 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. All these countries are mark by high vaccination rate, fall from high infection number, fall in hospitalisation and low death number.
2. Also the low infection number, low hospitalisation and low and zero death stabilise and plateau.
3. Only if we can achieve this scenario, then we can happily declare ourselves endemic and consider covid no longer posing a threat to our public health safety.
[0:33 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Yes, while one is very good for them and the other very bad!
[0:33 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. UAE 10 million people population but less than 100 infection case per day down from 4,000 cases. Nearly 95% drop in infection with no death.
2. Singapore 5.45 million people clock more than 3,000 per day with single to double digits death.
3. Definitely we are at a high infection stage far from endemic.
[0:33 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Saudi Arabia eases Covid-19 curbs as daily cases fall below 100. https://www.straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-eases-covid-19-curbs-as-daily-cases-fall-below-100
[0:34 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Still focusing on daily case numbers. Let's understand the serious illness and deaths. Who are they and how are they getting infected? That's the key to solving this
[0:34 pm, 20/10/2021] +Stella Yip: ππππ
[0:35 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/more-anxious-covid-19-deaths-flu-dengue-endemic-2251616?cid=FBcna&fbclid=IwAR2xdDX99sG15yypLeqXQqA6gczu9Zx9r4CIflGqZE5iINNplu8cjdWpRgY
[0:35 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Surely on your logic, cases will shoot up again if they remove masks. We have always worn masks and cases were below 10. How did we get to this state if wearing masks prevents the spread?
[0:35 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I dont mind wearing masks by by way, my point is that whatever we are doing didn't work, or cases would not have risen.
[0:36 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: We have always has restrictions, even with few cases. Now we have restrictions and still have high cases. Do we know why?
[0:37 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: It does seem like currently measures are not very effective in controlling the spread , seeing how our daily cases have reached 4000+
Maybe people are tired of the restrictions.. hence they are not as effective as they should be.
Or there’s just too much spread going on now very difficult to stop
[0:37 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: One question. Is our monthly death rate higher than pre pandemic? If so, by how much?
[0:38 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Or we attributing covid to these deaths when those people may have died from their underlying health issues anyway?
[0:38 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Taking the statistics of Delta waves that rages in countries with high and low vaccination rate - high infection number, hospitalisation number and death - will rage on up to 70 days to 3 months.
2. During this heightened period where Delta run amok - the prudent measures are to :-
a. Tighten restriction measures - which we have already done and should hold on to it until it do a downward trajectory.
b. Ramp up vaccination rate among the unvaccinated.
c. Give booster shot to those where anti-bodies wane.
3. Only then countries manage to bring the population to land safely from the covid naive state to the endemic state.
4. Any actions to the contrary will introduce a multiple spikes within a spike.
[0:39 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Does anyone have this statistic?
[0:39 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: About 60 people die in Singapore every day on average. Cancer, pneumonia and ischaemic heart disease – the top three causes - account for about two-thirds, or around 40 deaths a day, according to the Ministry of Health. Influenza accounts for an estimated 600 to 800 deaths here each year.
[0:39 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Only this
[0:40 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: https://www.statista.com/statistics/580942/death-rate-in-singapore/
[0:40 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Thank you
[0:41 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: 4.8% in 2020 as well
[0:42 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. If we maintain tighten restriction measures - the Delta wave will be contain within a small part of the population.
2. If we loosen the restrictions measures now - the whole population of 5.45 million will be infected.
3. Until the Delta wave rage over, we will enter into endemic stable state keeping a large part of the population unscath.
4. Else we will end up like UK.
[0:45 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: This is all your opinion, understood. Not fact, just assertion.
[0:46 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Take reference to UAE Denmark Norway Saudi, Israel, Japan.
[0:46 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
And Singapore choose to believe my opinion.
[0:48 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Thank goodness.
More lives will be saved.
[0:50 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: You speak for all Singapore, except the people who have a different opinion. Lol
[0:50 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Why not just lock down entirely then?
[0:51 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Singapore government choose to believe my opinion.
To save more lives.
And to alleviate hospitals resources pressure.
Thanks goodness.
[0:51 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Japan was in a terrible state for over a year. How did they come out for it? What lessons can we take away that we have not done already?
[0:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I'm glad you think you are responsible for it all. Well done.
[0:54 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Oh whoever responsible is not important.
Most important is the outcome.
Thankfully both my opinion and the government is in synch.
And more lives are save.
And hospital can still function without overwhelm.
[0:54 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Again, I'm not advocating for removing all restrictions. I'm asking for data on what works and what doesn't.
[0:55 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: A full lock down is obviously the way to end spread. We don't want that. No restrictions will lead to more deaths etc
[0:55 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: We have a middle ground, some think I too lax, others think too restrictive
[0:56 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I will push for relaxing in areas I see no evidence that they cause spread. Or negligible.
[0:57 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I will ask why people are getting infected, where and if the restrictions helped or made no difference
[0:58 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Why are elderly unvaccined people getting ill and dying?
[0:58 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Why are they not at home isolating and avoiding people?
[1:09 pm, 20/10/2021] +REACH: π Smooth entry to malls on first day of mandatory vaccination status checks
More: https://str.sg/3cm4
πSome disorder in rollout of Covid-19 testing and isolation protocols at Jalan Tukang dormitory: MWC chairman
More: https://str.sg/3cW9
π ComfortDelGro offers accident-cum-Covid-19 insurance for passengers
More: https://str.sg/3cW6
[1:12 pm, 20/10/2021] +RH: Simple reasons...
1. They dun care.
2. They feel tt since ppl catch the virus (anyway), vax or no vax makes no diff.
3. They r of the age wher they feel tt they r alredi in the way to the grave anyway, it makes no difference to get vax (see #2).
4. May as well enjoy the remainder of their days (whatever is left) ... and do wat they like b4 they go. (see #3)
5. Just can't stay hm for watever reasons known only to themselves.
6. They r stubborn old goats - diehards - they think they know better, cos it's their body, their life.
7. They r ill-informed, mis-informed, confused by all the news & data, or just plain un-informed. (see #8).
8. They dun hv mobile fone, their mobile fone is not smart fone, they dun hv/dun subscribe to Wi-Fi ,
their hp belongs to the 1980's...
9. They live alone, hv little or none social network!
π€·♀️π€·♀️π€·♀️π€·♀️π€·♀️
[1:14 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: If even just half of that is true then we can't base our policies on protecting them!
[1:14 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: So we have mandatory vaccination now?
[1:17 pm, 20/10/2021] +RH: I think, as far as the vacc-diff measures go, the Gov has alredi done wat they can.
The remaining grp of Un Vax (except those certified Medically Unfit for Vax) r just stubborn old goats.
Like overly coddled, spoilt brats.
We shd not continue to coddle them any more.
Pls roll out the program to issue Passes to those medically certified unfit for Vax.
Then we wl know the 'true' figure of those Anti-Vax & diehards.
[1:18 pm, 20/10/2021] +DC: 1) when entering malls, my hp is being scanned. How can i know its a valid scanner? And not an illegit device scanning away my personal details including credit card details? We are in the age of pdpa but we are not taking enough steps to protect n ensure.
2) the rules change so fast that not all malls, retail outlets are applying uniform neasures. Some check your vax status. Some don't. Some ask to see the tick on vax status. Some just check verbally. How can enforcement be so haphazard?
3) I have to refer to moe website for rules governing school children, mom, nea website for rules for park and moh rules regarding qo etc. It's been 2 years. After all the $$ spent on IT, can't we have one app that tells everything? In this age of AI, can't i have a personal assistant that interfaces and give me all relevant info?
4) when i pick up things that are wrong in public places, i can only report via oneservice app. And it takes so many steps to make a report. After reporting, nobody even bother to contact me and give me an outcome/resolution. Can we streamline public feedback pls.
5)inconsistent logic. We prevent non vax people from entries to malls. But how about mrt and buses? These are fully ac too and worse there's no 1m social distancing. (and 1m dist is not enough for delta and airborne c19 - statement issued by us cdc and who). Why are we applying policies with inconsistent logic?
[1:20 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: 5) is hard… might as well lock them at home.. π€£
[1:20 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Cannot go mall cannot take public transport is almost like lockdown π
[1:21 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: 15 percent is still a significant amount of workforce
[1:21 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Don’t let them take who can take their place at work
[1:23 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: With almost all place deter you then. They still don’t want to take really what can we do? Further clamp down?
As long as mandate is not out. People have a choice
[1:25 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Base on stat 12.3 is kids… so we are looking at 2.7 percent that don’t want to take
[1:27 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Isn’t that very Low then? So Govt is just waiting unless kids get vaccinated?
[1:28 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Maybe π€·π»♂️
[1:28 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: If your statistics is accurate, then pushing 2.7% over to vaccinate - is not too far fetch.
The question is ho do it:-
1. Vaccination differentiated measures
Or
2. Mandatory vaccination
Or something else.
Whatever method - as long as the method works - we are closer to endemic.
[1:28 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Just google but rough estimate won’t be too far off I guess
[1:29 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://sg.news.yahoo.com/malaysia-government-tells-those-choose-095841022.html
Malaysia government tells those who choose not to get Covid vaccine: ‘We will make life very difficult’.
[1:29 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/malaysia-unvaccinated-civil-servants-disciplinary-action-service-termination-2254526 Unvaccinated civil servants in Malaysia may face disciplinary action or termination: Public Service Department.
[1:31 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Hmm then our healthcare system is being threatened by 2.7% of unvaccinated adults? Lol
[1:35 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
2.7% is 147,150.
Comprising 77,000 elderly (published in news).
The remainder are other adults.
Hospital beds for covid is 1,600.
Still a formidable number.
Then government and society resources will need to target and craft out strategy to get this group to vaccinate.
[1:36 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/20/the-time-is-now-western-australia-to-mandate-covid-vaccines-for-most-workers?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
[1:38 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I think we shoukd put our resources into creating a safe space for kids to play, socialise and learn. They are innocent and suffering.
[1:40 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/more-unvaccinated-pregnant-women-with-covid-19-hospitalised-in-singapore More unvaccinated pregnant women with Covid-19 hospitalised in Singapore.
[1:41 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/pfizer-biontech-seek-green-light-covid-19-jab-children-aged-5-11-canada-2253201
Pfizer, BioNTech seek green light for COVID-19 jab for children aged 5-11 in Canada.
[1:42 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/pfizer-biontech-covid19-vaccine-young-children-eu-review-2252586
EU evaluating use of Pfizer-BioNTech's COVID-19 vaccine in young children.
[1:43 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Yup… percentage looks small but we cannot still handle the total amount
[1:44 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-13/covid-19-infections-high-and-rising-among-children-in-england
Covid-19 Infections ‘High and Rising’ Among Children in England.
[1:44 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Until the young ones get vaccinated the restrictions will like be still on
[1:46 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Are we seeking the green light in Singapore?
[1:46 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
π€·
[1:48 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Good thing that even in countries with no restrictions not everyone gets ill at once! UK has no restrictions and low vaccination rate, the rate of infection is 0.05% per day
[1:48 pm, 20/10/2021] +jimmy chew: Now got new evidence on mix and match π€£ like candy
[1:49 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Population density and variant might be different
[1:50 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
You nail it.
[1:49 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Many factors
[1:49 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: If not all countries also won’t have different policy… money, population and feasibility
[1:50 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Yes but it's not going to go from 0.05% to 1% is it? We won't be overrun suddenly.
[1:51 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Is a big if… if be right there wrong then hospital collapse so they monitor closely
[1:51 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: The point again, is that all the focus is on the 2.7% who don't want to be vaccinated. When 50% were not vaccinated we were not overrun.
[1:51 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Hence the flip flop lol π€£
[1:51 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Do note the 12.3% are not vaccinated also
[1:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Where is the evidence 2.7% will overrun us? They are the same 2.7% we have had for a year.
[1:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Yes and of the 10% kids, how many are in hospital?
[1:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: π€·π»♂️ above my pay grade lol
[1:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: So, no evidence. Ok
[1:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +jimmy chew: We might depending how the COVID mutate in a weak body π
[1:53 pm, 20/10/2021] +jimmy chew: Job of COVID is to survive π€£
[1:53 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Now we have Delta R0 = 9.
Previously original covid R0 = 4.
[1:53 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Our population density was the same when we were 50%, 60%, 70% vaccinated. Why were we not overrun then?
[1:53 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Delta has been with us for over6 months
[1:55 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Efficacy of vaccines for original covid = 95%.
Efficacy of vaccines for Delta fell from = 88% to 40% when anti-bodies wane.
[1:55 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: The point is not every gets that.. virus continue to mutates π
[1:56 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: So the next problem we have is that everyone needs a 3rd jab?
[1:57 pm, 20/10/2021] +jimmy chew: Interesting to find how the sinovac folks fare in the mutations
[1:57 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: π€·π»♂️ the problem is that I really don’t know. How effective the 3rd dose as for current strain recent study was recommended
[1:59 pm, 20/10/2021] +Rama: Singapore government has indirect approach.
[1:59 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Top virologist says Delta defeated, predicts 6+ months of COVID quiet for Israel.
3rd jab booster defeated Delta in Israel.
https://news.google.com/articles/CBMibWh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnRpbWVzb2Zpc3JhZWwuY29tL3RvcC12aXJvbG9naXN0LXNheXMtZGVsdGEtZGVmZWF0ZWQtcHJlZGljdHMtNi1tb250aHMtb2YtY292aWQtcXVpZXQtZm9yLWlzcmFlbC_SAXFodHRwczovL3d3dy50aW1lc29maXNyYWVsLmNvbS90b3Atdmlyb2xvZ2lzdC1zYXlzLWRlbHRhLWRlZmVhdGVkLXByZWRpY3RzLTYtbW9udGhzLW9mLWNvdmlkLXF1aWV0LWZvci1pc3JhZWwvYW1wLw?hl=en-SG&gl=SG&ceid=SG%3Aen
[2:00 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Death per 100,000 due to covid
Singapore (2.84)
Sweden (144.91)
Israel (87.48)
Denmark (45.90)
Brunei (64)
Cambodia (15.2)
Laos (0.36) - less urbanise and youthful
Thailand (25.41)
Malaysia (85.54)
Philippines (83 to 210)
Indonesia (110 to 410)
Myanmar (unaccountable)
[2:02 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Singapore has the 2nd lowest death among the list compile.
Thanks to our government middle path approach.
Proper balance of restrictions measures to safeguard public health safety and maintaining our livelihood through targeted reopening - make Singapore a safe place living with covid and yet can let our Economy function.
[2:02 pm, 20/10/2021] +Smiley face: Pls bookmark it.
“My estimate is that once we have three vaccines, protection will last for a year,” said Abulafia-Lapid, a senior doctor at Hadassah Medical Center and part of the Hebrew University’s faculty. “There should be good memory in the body for around a year that can fight off COVID infection in many cases.”
[2:03 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I think maybe "surviving covid" is a more accurate phrase than "living with covid"
[2:09 pm, 20/10/2021] +Caleb: +1
[2:13 pm, 20/10/2021] +Smiley face: Britain falls behind Europe on Covid-19 as surge sparks call for probe into Delta Plus mutation
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/uk-covid-19-surge-sparks-call-for-probe-into-delta-plus-mutation
The reproduction rate in that age group was 1.18, meaning that on average every 10 young people infected are passing it on to about 12 others.
The Delta plus strain Dr Gottlieb highlighted includes the K417N mutation, which has also stoked concern because that’s also harboured by the Beta variant that’s associated with an increased risk of reinfection.
"We need urgent research to figure out if this Delta Plus is more transmissible, has partial immune evasion," Dr Gottlieb said in a tweet on Sunday.
[2:18 pm, 20/10/2021] +Smiley face: Suggest we start our investigating on 0 to 9yrs, pre-puberty age group. Perhaps this age group may be the next vulnerable one versus the current age group our seniors. A two extreme continum of 0 to 9 to 70 to 100, this case age and age group risk stratification.
[2:22 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: I may be wrong, but I think the G/MOH did not specifically disallow kids to dine with parents. The strictly 2 pax per table restrictions is probably due to logistics. Imagine the restaurant having to shift and reconfigure the seating while adhering to safe distancing requirements every time a different group comes in to dine.... Otherwise it definitely makes no sense.
[2:23 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Less testing maybe π
[2:24 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I wonder too - I've been to several restaurants and been sat at a table for 4, but told either me, my wife or kid has to sit separately. If I could find an official document that says kids are exempt from the 2 person rule that would be very helpful!
[2:25 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: True.. but wondering if it will be equally sad if the kids caught CV19 and fell seriously ill, and/or spread it to more vulnerable old folks at home
[2:26 pm, 20/10/2021] +REACH: π Primary school pupils required to take Covid-19 antigen rapid test every 2 weeks: MOE
More: https://str.sg/3cmY
π All bus interchange Covid-19 clusters closed, 99% of public transport front-line workers vaccinated: LTA
More: https://str.sg/3cm5
[2:32 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: On investigation it seems that our low level of infection rates earlier in the pandemic is the reason that our numbers are relatively high compared to our vaccination level. It is not because of population density, which we have always had.
[2:52 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/over-17000-get-first-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-after-new-vaccine-differentiated Over 17,000 get first dose of Covid-19 vaccine after new vaccine-differentiated measures announced.
[2:52 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Vaccination differentiated measures seems to be working.
Pushing more to vaccinate.
[3:00 pm, 20/10/2021] +An fan: What happened to these nursing homes? Residents there are vulnerable. They do not go malls or eat outside right? How were they infected?
[3:04 pm, 20/10/2021] +Paddy: The staff
[3:12 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: i think maybe we need to learn to respect the restaurant's decisions as well. If anyone disagrees with how the restaurant is managing it, they are free to walk away. Why insist and argue? The restaurant has obviously looked at the G/MOH's directive and made a decision based on what their own staff/resources can manage.
[3:22 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Agreed - personally I've never insisted or argued and not seen anyone else do this. They have told me it's the rules, so therefore why argue with the restaurant. They don't set the rules. If it is a Gov directive, they won't choose to go against that and risk penalties.
[3:23 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Or are you suggesting the restaurant is not required to do it, just advised?
[3:30 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Yeah. F&B owners are mostly drowning as it is... and I can imagine, if they thought it is possible, they would be more than happy to accommodate more diners.
As a policy to reduce the spread of CV19, the strict 2pax/table restriction that splits diners from the same family unit, who most likely traveled together in the same transport, makes little sense.
But I suspect, allowing yet more exceptions to the rule, may also place more burden on restaurants who may be forced to verify if the diners are indeed from the same family unit etc etc ...
Have seen many unreasonable people/diners/shoppers/passengers who think just because they are the customer, they must always be right.
So, in a way, I think this blanket restriction, although crude, ,actually eases some of the restaurant staff's burden.
[3:31 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Put the responsibility on the diner, not the owner. Not sure how many under 12 kids are off having meals with other people's parents?
[3:32 pm, 20/10/2021] +jimmy chew: Yeah, because when the Safe Distancing Ambassador comes, there is evidence that 4 of the family members are cross talking. To be safe as a biz owner, safer to separate family members. Also depending on the SMM Ambassador enforcement. Some no excuse, some okay lah warning. Some just verify all same family.
[3:34 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: worse, some will take advantage of the situation and solicit for bribes from the biz owner π
[3:37 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: Easy to check if all the same family - we all have NRIC which has home address on it.
[3:39 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: Lots - same household is allowed to do anything together except dining. If you are not home young kids still need to eat.
[3:39 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: the issue is never with the legitimate cases... its always those who are bending the rules who will give all kinds of excuses, raise their voices and throw tantrum when asked for evidence/proof.
[3:41 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: Very true.
There are lots of SDA about is maybe have a helpline F&B manager can call in such cases to get SDA to attend? Easy fix surely (and the knowledge that F&B manager could call is likely to be enough).
[3:49 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: how do they eat at the moment, since they can't be out eating with other people's parents? Or are you saying everyone is breaking the rules right now?
[3:50 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Most likely a tiny minority. Once again why is the vast majority penalised because the inconsiderate actions of a few? How is that the right approach for society?
[3:51 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: or maybe just not worry too much about it, since it's not actually a cause for concern. The odd kid having a meal with someone else's parents seem quite a miniscule risk for the country.
[3:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: and don't forget - there is no problem going to someone's house for a meal, so it's not like we are stopping kids eating with other people's parents, only in restaurants.!
[3:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: If it was such a big risk - why allow house to house visits at all?
[3:54 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: so in summary - kids can go to their friends house and eat with other people's parents, but cannot go to a restaurant and eat with their ownparents. hmm.
[3:55 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: No. I have three kids: we try to ensure that we are home for mealtimes but if we have to eat out, we have to have three tables: wife + 3yo, me + 5yo and 7yo on his own.
[3:56 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: exactly - an absurd situation!
[3:57 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So that all families with 2 parents won't bring few children and the whole restaurant crowded with people - Vaccinated and unvaccinated - mutual infect.
[3:57 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I've seen the same with a mum and her baby at a table with dad having to sit elsewhere, mum doesn't get to eat as she is focused on the baby. Then the parents swap so she can get something to eat.
[3:57 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
My close friend comments:-
1. We can't protect the unvaccinated unless they want to protect themselves in the first place.
2. Vaccination for pandemic is like getting people who are out at sea to wear life vests. Personal hygiene and social distancing is like constant checking of weather, avoiding bad weather, whether out at sea or before that. Doesnt mean one will be danger free, but he either does his part to migitate risks or he should just stay out.
3. Gov has done a lot to secure vaccines; implement swift and smooth vaccination programs; implement measures to slow transmission etc but at the end of the day, it is the individual who has to take personal responsibility to ensure his own safety and social responsibility to minimise transmission to others in case he is infected.
4. Now, what else? How about letting the unvaccinated sign an undertaking that if the healthcare is overwhelmed and there is a need to prioritize, then the unvaccinated will have a lower priority over the vaccinated? (other considerations being equal)
5. This is not about money - that if one is unvaccinated and later become infected, he will be penalised by paying all the related medical bills.
6. This is about a possible scenario whereby healthcare capacity cannot be scaled up anymore; infrastructure or manpower or both. Is the unvaccinated willing to bow out and let the vaccinated be treated first given that the vaccinated has a better chance? Overwhelming in healthcare system happened in other countries. And then who is to decide who gets treated? I believe many of these unvaccinated can be convinced through education programmes prior to signing the undertaking.
7. Let the unvaccinated seriously think through the choice between the devil and the deep blue sea. Let them take a position and sign an undertaking if they choose not to be vaccinated. We can exclude those above 80, those who are medically not eligible for vaccination and children below 12.
8. I know vaccine injury is real. I know the fear of possible vaccine injury is real. But the threats of covid virus is real too. The threats to our economy if we don't open up is also real too. Which is more dire?
9. Time to push the unvaccinated to make their stand and face possible consequences?
[3:58 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: yup.
[3:58 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: That’s tough
[3:59 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Facing similar issue but I only have one baby
[3:59 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Can’t imagine 3 π£
[4:00 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Think the main policy setup to just deter eating out for parents with kids.
2 can still go out for couple π€£
That’s what I think the dine out for 2 mainly is for
[4:00 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: +100000000000000000000 π
[4:00 pm, 20/10/2021] +Ken Loh: If not no dating for the 2 years π€£
[4:01 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: yes very difficult for 3 year old and 5 year old to understand why they cannot sit together when they are out when they share a bedroom and have bunkbeds so sleep 1m apart. hence we very rarely take then out.
[4:01 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: oh, hahah I see. Yes maybe that's it!
[4:02 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: every night is valentines :)
[4:02 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
If a food court have 10 tables - 2 person per table - max is 20 person in food court.
If allow family members to crowd around a table eg. 2 parents and 3 children.
Then the food court will have 50 people to mutually infect.
[4:10 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Notice in many food courts - many tables and chairs are marked and cross - so that people can't sit on it.
Those unmark let only 2 persons to sit.
Reasons:- is to limit the number of people inside the food court to prevent overcrowding and trigger mutual infection.
Then if everyone can allow family members to crowd around a table - then it defeat the purpose of social distancing measures.
And it will help to spread even faster among the unvaccinated children - especially if Delta wave is so transmissible.
[4:12 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
The reason why people always grumble and complain is because people always look at their own convenience.
But fail to take into account macro views and aggregated outcome.
Government always look at macro views and aggregated outcome.
[4:13 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: I would think that possibility is pretty Low... lol
[4:16 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: as low as the kids catching CV19 while playing soccer outside no doubt .. but that is not the question. The question is, is it less sad IF the kids were to bring the virus home (or somewhere) and infect someone who is more vulnerable, who then ends up sick/dead.
[4:17 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Kids cannot play outside >> Sad
Kids bring virus home/somewhere, then infects vulnerable persons, who then gets very sick/die >> Sad? π€·♂️
[4:18 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: I think this is a rather extreme view. I’m sure kids who live with those who are vulnerable would be reminded by their parents to be careful.
Not all kids live with senior citizens
[4:18 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Again ... not debating probabilities here .. but comparing realities
[4:18 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: ? Reality is based on statistics lol
[4:19 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: when you become that 0.00001 % probably .. that reality is no different from 100%
[4:20 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: Anyway, don;t get me wrong, I am 100% supportive of removing ALL restrictions and just letting everyone decide their own risk tolerance and activity level
[4:21 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Hmm 0.000001% to me seems extremely Low lol
[4:24 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: We are here to make things better and express our views. It's not grumbling and complaining. Maybe you should be more considerate to others?
[4:24 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: True that that is the Govt Job to look at SG as a whole. They have the information and the resources to do so as well. Their role is to do make difficult decisions that would be unpopular.
However I think ground up feedback is still important. People may ‘grumble and complain’, but sometimes these may be legitimate complaints. That help Govt to make their policy and measures better.
Furthermore everybody’s situation is also different and it’s difficult for the government to know when they first put out some measures and policies possibly due to short timeline. So feedback might also help them to fine tune or allow for some flexibility while maintaining the effectiveness of the measures/policy.
[4:25 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I don't disagree with this view.
[4:24 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: been watching Dr Jason Leong's standup on netflix #blessed #lol ? π
[4:26 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: Society and Government have a duty to protect the vulnerable but the vulnerable also have a duty to protect themselves.
There is a portion of the population who is essentially holding the rest of the country to ransom; is it really fair for society to allow that to continue? We have to move forward looking after the majority.
[4:27 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I don't disagree with this view either.
[4:27 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Problem is I think Govt is more worried about hospital capacity. If really sick people are left without hospital beds sure kena complain
[4:29 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
This is the main consideration determining current government measures.
[4:29 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: Didn't the Gov build a massive hospital facility at Changi Exhibition Hall?
[4:30 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
But where is the additional doctors and nurses?
[4:30 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Wah but I think general public still go hospital first lol
[4:30 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Yes, are we basing our policies on worst case scenarios however remote the possibility?
[4:31 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: Fair point.
[4:31 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Previously infection 100 over per day.
Now increment is by 1000 over.
Yesterday by 2000.
[4:32 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: But only a reality for 0.00001% - on that basis shut the country down when there is dengue, flu, covid or anything where 1 in a million might be at risk.
[4:32 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: you are?
[4:32 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: I think sadly yes... because they experienced overwhelming at our current hospitals already.
Problem is hospital cannot really turn away people especially those who may need monitoring.
Whether or not checking in to the hospital would really save that person, people also wouldn’t know
[4:35 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Then the problem is that we are not being smart about how to curb the spread. Where is the data from TT showing how the virus spreads. How many times has someone been infected in a park, for example, compared to a mall, compared to a restaurant or someone's house. Do we know? Do we have any evidence? Or are we just applying odd rules because we don't have a clue?
[4:36 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I'm not judging, I'm just asking. I don't want people to get sick, but equally don't want us all living like hermits for no reason.
[4:37 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: I was in France and Italy, in busy cities and they don't have these restrictions and don't have the cases either. Is it because they all got sick last year and are now immune? Maybe.
[4:38 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: The idea of not having a meal in a fully vaccinated restaurant with your kids because of the risk of Covid is just bizarre. If those people were contragious then how are they all allowed on the MRT together?
[4:38 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: I still think that one of the biggest problem is that we are not comparing like with like when we compare SG figures against rest of the world.
We are testing a MASSIVE number of people each day and therefore our figures are probably a lot more accurate than most. US, UK, EU seem to only test to confirm an infection and therefore are without doubt missing a massive number of positives.
Accordingly, we cannot compare our numbers against other countries on a like for like basis.
If you search the entire haystack for needles eventually you'll find all of them. If you only confirm that its a needle when you think you've found one you don't know how many you missed.
[4:38 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Hmm I think Govt would have data, but also dependent whether the location people got active their TT. I would think the infection spreads very quickly in indoor places and definitely restaurants/foodcourt since mask off.
But it does seem like current measures have lost some effectiveness tbh
[4:38 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: In fact, maybe the MRT is the cause of the spread? Do we know?
[4:39 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: The conclusion from that would be that the vast number of cases result in no illness....
[4:41 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: Pretty stark contrast.
[4:44 pm, 20/10/2021] +Cross finger: I know I have highlight this but it is wider than meals - my youngest has just turned three; his entire crawling/walking/talking life has been under Covid. He has never been to a playgroup, he has never had a birthday party, he has never been to a birthday party, he has never been on holiday, he has never met his grandparents etc etc.
What is the development consequence of that?
[4:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: If my understanding of immunisation/immunity to viruses is correct, we ultimately need to encounter the virus in order to gain sufficient immunity against it.
The current vaccinations are only part of the necessary solution to gaining full immunity so that we can finally enter into the endemic phase.
From what I gather, this constant cycle of lockdowns and restrictions is nothing more than a strategy to buy us time to:
1. Gain a basic/minimum level of defense through the vaccines as our body's natural immune system is obviously not able to work fast enough to combat the virus. In a way, the vaccines are our "starter packs"/"helpers". It is there to prevent us from dying before our own (slower responding) immune system kicks in.
[4:25 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I don't disagree with this view.
[4:56 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: I am 100% .. unfortunately I am not your PM. So.... π
[4:57 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: haha, well I'm interested in everyone's opinion! You are going with 100% personal responsibility - no differentiated measures?
[4:57 pm, 20/10/2021] +BL: Yes exactly - and where are the efforts, resources being put to help our kids? Always the conversation is about seniors.
[5:02 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Yes agree that the other impacts of covid and it’s restrictions has to be taken seriously as well. We cannot be held back by too much fear, with continuous emphasis on worst case scenarios
[5:04 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: My reason is because most people who want to be vaccinated are already vaccinated, The rest - kids under 12 - data seems to show that they are handling ti very very well.
So, the way i look at it, a few things will happen when all restrictions are lifted:
1. People who are cautious will anyway continue to be so - vaccinated, masks on, wash hands, safe distancing etc. They will mostly be safe.
2. People who are "braver" for whatever reasons, can put their bravery and beliefs to the test. No holds barred. Maybe they will be right afterall, that nothing serious really happened. Or maybe, the scientists were right, and these people fall very ill, maybe even die. In any case, we get conclusive data one way or the other with the added bonus of having 1 less "braveheart" to argue with if the scientists were right. π
[5:14 pm, 20/10/2021] +Joseph: What I disagree most with, are comments/ideas that are based on conspiracy theories π
[6:17 pm, 20/10/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We want to HEAR MORE from you!
We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan π
[6:25 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/who-led-programme-aims-buy-antiviral-covid-19-pills-us10-draft-document-2253986 WHO-led programme aims to buy antiviral COVID-19 pills for US$10: Draft document. Merck charge US$700 per course.
[6:25 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Wonder Singapore pay how much per Merck pill course.
[6:25 pm, 20/10/2021] +Rama: π¨π±π€¦♀️ππ€¨ππ‘
[6:46 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/all-bus-interchange-covid-19-clusters-closed-99-of-public-transport-front-line Bus Interchange clusters - the most widely spread clusters across the island ---- can finally live through its Delta life cycle and go into endemic. This is a micro-version of how from few cases result in a spike for a couple of months and then go into remission.
Singapore in this Delta wave - similarly will go through this cycle. Estimated 70 days to 3 months for this current Delta wave to rage through - before we can emerge from the spike into a more stabilised endemic state.
Meanwhile we need to have patience and tolerant to tide through this trying period.
[6:46 pm, 20/10/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan
[6:50 pm, 20/10/2021] +Kevin: Good night Megan
[6:52 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
And to burn through the bus clusters it took about 2 to 3 months.
So quite in line with overseas Delta wave burn through about 70 days to 3 months.
[6:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: Hmm don
[6:52 pm, 20/10/2021] +Angelica: *don't see how SG can ride through Delta wave cause only a small % of our population is infected
[6:58 pm, 20/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/israel-offers-lesson-in-boosters-as-british-covid-19-cases-surge
Israel 3rd booster offer a good lesson for UK.
[6:59 pm, 20/10/2021] +Smiley face: 20 October, 2021
To: Distinguished MTF, DMS and All Honorable Members
(Welcome Our New Members)
"He who knows all the answers has not been asked all the questions."
- - Confucius
Hypothesis:
The Waning of Vaccine Immunity and Reinfections?
If it is true that vaccine efficacy will wane after 6 months. Perhaps the booster program needs to be given TOP priority and DOUBLE UP for those who have completed their second dose of mRNA into the 5th month period.
Currently, there is a consideration to mix vaccine as Booster dose which medical experts are echoing towards this direction.
Secondly, will the Health authorities and medical experts allow the NON mRNA vaccines to be considered as "booster", this case Sinovac / Sinopharms third dose as Booster?
Any harm or side effect should these NON mRNA vaccines be taken thrice, fourth and more?
How about the future waves of variant/ infection?
Surely it will come and go! Importantly we have learned to be smarter and swifter in handling such scenarios simply out of experienced and exposures! Yes, our infrastructures have been through the stretch and the length of the Covid challenges. To our best abilities, once again we will persevere and BEAT IT!
Afterwords:
Risk Assessment (On-going) :
Continue prioritising our seniors, securing the nation booster initiative and investigate & prepare for our youngest ones.
Ranking ( ε―Ήζ£δΈθ―) - -
1) Seniors
2) Boosters
3) Pre-Puberty
Preparing (Current):
Cases wise, what are the local data compares to the global characteristics of EACH age group? Pre/Post Covid - - lifestyles, medical history, and efficacious of Vaccine. By narrowing the age banding to 10 years per interval thus we can observe the Amplitude and Frequency of each age group performance in terms of lead and lag.
Of concern, suggest we start investigating for 0 to 9yrs the pre-puberty age group. Perhaps this age group may be the next vulnerable one versus the current seniors. A two extreme continum of age 0 to 9 and 70 to 100, this case risk stratification by age group.
In the course of expanding this investigation, perhaps the medical experts should look deeper into the extreme 1% of each age group to reduce the risk of serious cases into finite numbers.
Be Prepared (2022):
HBL for primary schools into two segregation of P1, P3, P5 and P2, P4, P6 with alternate week of physical Schooling. Affected parents to seek consideration from employers for WFH during these weekly HBL.
Quotations:
"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest."
- - Confucious
"finding ways and means to beat it...be overly prepared! "
- - Ian T
- - END - -
[7:00 pm, 20/10/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
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