REACH 282 - What are your views on the new measures announced on 9 Oct to ease the burden on healthcare workers and stabilise the healthcare system, in particular, to the shift to home recovery as a norm and the simplified healthcare protocols? (SK)
11 Oct 2021 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:45 am, 11/10/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
Welcome back! π
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[10:00 am, 11/10/2021] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
A simpler set of rules for COVID-19 patients and their close contacts will be rolled out from today (Oct 11), bringing an end to quarantine orders and leave of absence notices. The aim is to make healthcare protocols easier to understand and reduce the burden on government resources, including phone operators and quarantine officers. They also mean that Singapore's COVID-19 strategy will now rely heavily on antigen rapid tests (ARTs), which typically produce results in 15 minutes and can be self-administered.
Under the new protocols, there will only be three sets of rules: people who have symptoms and test positive; those with no symptoms but test positive; and close contacts of a positive case. Mild symptoms include cough, runny nose, sore throat, body ache, diarrhoea and headache, with or without fever. Severe symptoms include shortness of breath, chest pain or pressure and loss of speech or movement.
π¬ What are your views on the new measures announced on 9 Oct to ease the burden on healthcare workers and stabilise the healthcare system, in particular, to the shift to home recovery as a norm and the simplified healthcare protocols?
The COVID-19 Home Recovery Programme (HRP) will be the default care arrangement for everyone, except certain groups, from Sunday (Oct 10). Default home recovery will also be extended to children aged five to 11 years old. Children aged one to four can also recover at home, provided they are first assessed at the hospitals to be suitable for home recovery.
Based on the clinical observations of vaccinated infected people aged 70 to 79, and the fall risks associated with such elderly in an unfamiliar environment, it will be safer for them to recover in the familiar surroundings of their homes, MOH said. Home recovery will also include unvaccinated people aged 12 to 49, as the severity of illness for such individuals is low. However, as a precaution, individuals from both groups would be assigned to a healthcare provider and should track their health closely. This includes monitoring their oxygen level during the isolation period and consulting the healthcare provider early should there be any significant deterioration in their health, MOH added.
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/covid-19-quarantine-orders-scrapped-simpler-rules-to-be-rolled-out-in-singapore
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/home-recovery-the-default-covid-19-care-arrangement-for-everyone-from-sunday
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/every-spore-household-to-receive-10-art-covid-19-self-test-kits-moh
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/parenting-education/students-and-staff-with-negative-art-results-for-covid-19-can-go-to
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health-protocols-to-be-drastically-simplified-all-sporeans-on-home-recovery-will-get-care
π https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/singapores-path-forward-to-a-new-normal-10-takeaways-from-pm-lees-national-address
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[10:12 am, 11/10/2021] +Timothy Low: I have a question to ask: currently for those who are tested positive using the ART there is no platform for them to submit their results right? If that’s the case why MOH doesn’t want to add these confirmed cases into their daily case number?
[10:13 am, 11/10/2021] +Peter Ng: Sounds like such counting will be deemphasised going forward
[10:14 am, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: I think other countries don't do that.
And by adding these numbers, it will seems huge and then many countries will not want to open their borders to us?
[10:15 am, 11/10/2021] +Timothy Low: I see. So our actual number of cases daily might be much higher than what was being reported
[10:16 am, 11/10/2021] +Peter Ng: Got to discern value of counting asymptomatic cases
[10:17 am, 11/10/2021] +Timothy Low: Asymptomatic doesn’t mean not infectious right
[10:18 am, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: I think hard to spread the virus?
Unless close contract for long period of time?
[10:18 am, 11/10/2021] +Peter Ng: You mean like flu?
[10:19 am, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: U mean running nose?
[10:19 am, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: Ya
[10:19 am, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: Yep correct, but I think the shift is not so much about the case count anymore, but rather just dealing with symptomatic individuals to provide them with the medical support required
[10:22 am, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: Think it's a calculated risk, where asymptomatic cases just stay at home 72hrs self isolate, get better and not be infectious anymore (assuming 72hrs = not significantly infectious)
Then the minority who are symptomatic, ensure we have adequate medical care.
So moving forward, our actual cases should be way way higher than the reported number
[11:15 am, 11/10/2021] +Elena Woo: What is the scenario is for children younger than 12 yo? What is the protocol for parents and caregivers?
[0:15 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Confusing why a returning traveller who tests negative and is well, needs to do a 7 day PCR test. When someone who tests positive only has to do a self administered ART?
[0:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: "Under the new protocols, there will only be three sets of rules" plus another set of rules for returning travellers?
[0:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Peter Ng: Sounds like it
[0:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: I've given up trying to tell the difference.
May as well just flw watever, whenever. π³
[0:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Wearing a mask, washing hands etc makes it very hard to spread if there are no symptoms.
[0:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Peter Ng: Unless mask off activities
[0:18 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: I think you have to submit the results, I remember reading that, but haven't got it to hand.
[0:18 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: It seems like our gov is "thinking aloud" , putting one idea fwd after another, but not really sure which is the more definite way to take...
Relying on our (citizens) feedback & reactions.
[0:18 pm, 11/10/2021] +Peter Ng: Think a family I know got it through an infected P4 kid who had birthday celebration and blew the candles
[0:19 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Yea - that's not a very smart thing to do....
[0:20 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: I guess it is complicated and creates some discrepancies with all the different rules and circumstances. I think that is why some countries just gave up!
[0:33 pm, 11/10/2021] +Laurent: https://www.theepochtimes.com/iceland-stops-using-moderna-vaccine-over-heart-inflammation-risk_4040135.html?utm_source=partner&utm_campaign=ZeroHedge
[0:36 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Yes a bit odd that those who test positive don't have to declare their results, but those who are negative but been in contact with someone positive do!
[0:45 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: Like this one mentioned in ST
[0:48 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: This Government doing their own method way of counting daliy number now,
Which asyptomatic case no longer counting as Covid 19 case anymore
Bravo to Government who wanting the number going downππ
[0:50 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: ε₯½ε¦δΈε¦，ε¦εη，What more can U explain of that Government
[0:53 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Just be frank to the daliy case , MOH should always keep the number down, no matter asyptomatic or else going toward New Normal
[0:55 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Cause no way to reduce
[0:55 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Can only control infection rate
[0:55 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Are we encourage those who having Covid 19 to shop or eat at the mall without days of full recovery?
[0:55 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/grace-period-of-one-week-to-be-given-before-entry-rules-on-unvaccinated-people-kick-in
[0:58 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Excuses + Given up to getting down the number= MOH show us bad determination to fight with Covid 19
[0:58 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: It is still unclear if those UnVax can enter to buy food fr the mall...
Wat abt those who r Un-Vax, live alone, hv no one to help?
And are not able to take the vaccine for valid medical reasons?
[0:58 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Simply the answer now
[0:59 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: As one reader pointed out, the isolation sounds more like ostracism.
The UnVax eventually being relegated to the 'unseen shadows of society ' ??? π³
[1:00 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: What happened to the 'no one gets left behind' ideal?
[1:02 pm, 11/10/2021] +John Cheong: Good policy change in the right direction.
For vax population, govt is treating covid almost like flu, like it should.
For unvax population, the measure is to protect the system because covid will finally b endemic with thousands of asymptomatic infected everywhere. If unvax still roam freely, they might strain the health system further.
Unvax have a choice. They choose isolation.
[1:03 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: And dun forget, if you're talking abt the elderly grp, not many of them r tech savvy, English lang savvy ... or may not hv internet access... FULLSTOP.
How do u expect them to order online?
Plus eye sight problem... Words too small to see on hp, etc. etc.
[1:04 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Tt seems a tad harsh... Isolation.
Next, mental health issues wl increase.
[1:05 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Too many version and keep changing π€¦π»♂️π€¦π»♂️
[1:06 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Don’t know how to keep up for them
[1:06 pm, 11/10/2021] +John Cheong: Unvax ppl choose it. They want to go out, get vax
[1:06 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: PM lee speech no mandarin version to find online… a bit hard to explain all…
Only via radio for those not so tech savvy old folks might not be enough time or communicate route to them
[1:07 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Or even for other languages support a bit slow to push out
[1:08 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Agree
[1:09 pm, 11/10/2021] +CQ: yes, i agree. as a result, you will have one main rule but then half a dozen exceptions, which makes it very hard to implement. i foresee a lot of confusion and quarrels in the rollout.
[1:14 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: At the same time Government kill off those Unvax ✌️✌️human right✌️✌️for having meal at Hawker centre & Coffeeshop, We restricted ( UnVax )group deserve a simple meal at this facilities like everyone of us
We can continue to letting to dine-out 1 diner at a time, But abusing this group of people unable to dine out , it's Sins thing to do from Government or MOH stop adding measure to this group
Pls do not letting them to feel ζ΄»η沑ζζδΉ
Got it MOH or Government
[1:15 pm, 11/10/2021] +John Cheong: They can have simple meal. Get vax. Ez
[1:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +John Cheong: Get vax they can do everything
[1:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: Can get a PET-ART test.
[1:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: Valid for 24 hours
[1:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: Can go anywhere
[1:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Lower income ,U buy for them
[1:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: Then just get vax lor
[1:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Oh? Can arh?
[1:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: When baby also need to get all the different vax
[1:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: Yes ....
[1:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +John Cheong: If govt need to restrict unvax movement to keep health system well for more than 80 percent of population. Please go ahead. V fair.
[1:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Didn’t read this part π
[1:18 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: 15% left liao ,Then ask Government to sponsor them Unvax group
[1:21 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: This Government doing Small stuff only ,but absent in bigger pic
[1:23 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Seems clear that unvax cannot enter a mall, whatever their purpose - is there ambiguity about that?
[1:23 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Read this ,Daliy Cases 3000+hit 7days already ,then U tell me 15% can hurt our healthcare system, ✌️✌️think again✌️✌️
[1:24 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Seems the society is divided into vaccinated and unvaccinated, not infected and uninflected.
[1:24 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: home delivery, or supermarkets that are not in the malls?
[1:25 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: I think one group which we need to work on is actually those medically unable to be vaccinated.
While sort of agreeing that those unvax "chose" isolation, the unable-to-be-vaccinated group are affected as well. As such harsher measures are implemented to disincentivise the unvaccinated, we should not forget those who are unable as well
[1:25 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: it's for their own protection - or should all of Singapore be kept in isolation?
[1:26 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Every help is given to those who need it. No one is getting left behind! There are some people who have disabilities or medical conditions of course. We don't restrict everyone in life to have the same restrictions as them do we?
[1:27 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Eating is a small thing. There are clinics and preschool and childcare in the malls. Some Libraries are in shopping malls too. Those under 12 can not go to nearby libraries if it is in in mall.
[1:27 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: In France the message this summer was clear. No one is forced to get the vaccine. Everyone is at liberty to stay home. ie if you choose not to be vaccinated you are choosing to stay home.
[1:28 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Well said. ππ»
[1:28 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Fair point. For those with no family support, no friends, no neighbours, no access to CC we do indeed need a mechanism to help them.
[1:29 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: At least a day for every week for Unvax group to dine out or shop around at shopping not a huge problem
Except the MOH getting worst to see UNVAX group was a problem in our society
[1:29 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Also there are TCM and tuition centres in malls too.
[1:31 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: Thought kids are exempted?
[1:32 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: If 15% population can really hurt the nation
Then we don't have a number like now 3000+ after all these previous measure has being established
[1:32 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: But parents how to bring them in… that’s another problem π€¦π»♂️
[1:34 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Human rights? Tell that to the maid who had her hand severed being made to assist in the preparation of food for a hawker seller. When will Singapore uphold decency for Domestic Helpers and properly punish abuse by employers? It was outrageous there was just 2 months jail time and a $19k fine. What is the message being sent? I know I am off topic, but I was disgusted about this. and on the back of that women who forced her maid to shower naked in front of her. What is happening in this country? Off topic I know.....
[1:34 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Kids can not be vaccinated, they need to be protected too. As unvaccinated are not allowed to go into mall so that to be protected.
[1:35 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: provision for children 12 years and below applies^
[1:36 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: and is there no one who can take the kids into the mall? Or are both parents, friends and grandparents all medically unfit for vaccine?
[1:36 pm, 11/10/2021] +John Cheong: Agree!
[1:37 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: We know that there is a small group of Unvax, but we don't know how many by choice and how many by medical condition. If we knew that, it would likely resolve this debate.
[1:37 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: The implications of this new policy hv far reaching effects then.
Apart fr those who choose to isolate themselves, then r ther the grandmas / grandpas who help look after their young charges, take them to school, to the childcare ctr, to the libraries, to the look tiam, etc...
If these uncles & aunties r Un-Vax for valid reason,
and now being disallowed to enter such places, cos of Vax status
How is the working family gg to cope?
No helper (now lack of supply),
UnVax elderly parent not allowed at certain places,
Parents on WFH...
??? more stress on those sandwiched in btn... ??? π³
[1:38 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Plus worry abt kids <12 not vax.
[1:38 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Parents wl be impacted greatly in such cases.
[1:38 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Yes, exactly. It would be helpful to know how many. If less than 1% then I'd issue them with excempt cards.
[1:39 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Maybe that is the solution - Vaccine Exempt (due to medical condition) and they are allowed in the malls.
[1:39 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Can u pls gv me the link for this? ππ»
Tks!
[1:39 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Then it really does affect only those who choose not to vaccine for personal reasons.
[1:39 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: ππ» good idea!
[1:40 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: I don’t understand the English so is can or cannot? π
[1:41 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Under 12's were always exempt from these rules about numbers for restaurants and taxis etc. My assumption is that still stands, but I haven't seen that anywhere.
[1:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Thanks! This would be easy enough to add as a status on TT app, would just require a Dr approval.
[1:43 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: +1
[1:43 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: There should be. But since no entry to malls are to protect unvaccinated people, why you let kid in? They are not worth to be protected?
[1:44 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: The mall is full of vaccinated people. I feel pretty safe in there for my kid. Safer than the street!
[1:46 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: ζ΄»η沑ζζδΉ? ι£·δΈΊδΊε¨ε€ε°±ι€，ζ»εΎεΎζζδΉε？ π
For the benefit of our non-mandarin speakers,:
ζ΄»η沑ζζδΉ >> No meaning to life
ι£·δΈΊδΊε¨ε€ε°±ι€，ζ»εΎεΎζζδΉε？ >> So risking death for the sake of dining-out is meaningful living?
The restriction on un-vaxxed people is to protect them from catching CV19 and potentially falling very ill and dying. Not to penalise them. How is it that a simple thing like this is so difficult to understand?
[1:47 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: U mean SG, No Human right poor thingππ
[1:47 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: I can understand your point. But can vaccinated people carry virus? Without symptoms? If it is so safe in the mall with only vaccinated people, then no need to wear mask in the malls should come with this new policy too.
[1:48 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: The test does not protect them against the virus.
The problem is not whether or not they are carriers because studies/data have shown that vaccinated people are relatively "safe" even if we catch CV19.
The same cannot be said of un-vaccinated persons.
[1:51 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: PET-ART tests apply to malls entries , like it applies to office. Then everyone in the mall can feel safe.
[1:51 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Ask G = ask the 85% of vaccinated to sponsor
G don't create $ out of thin air. Whatever is being spent, came from the taxes that everyone paid. So, you are actually asking the 85% of vaxxed, to sponsor the 15% of unvaxxed
[1:51 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: It's also about reducing the spread. Unvax are more likely to spread the virus, and create mutations. Best stay home if not vaccinated.
[1:52 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Well that implies unvaxxed are more dangerous to others, but isn't the narrative that the measures are to protect unvaxxed and not solely to protect vaxxed from unvaxxed
[1:53 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Wearing mask is a low cost low hassle added protection. Its not a binary yes no situation. We take all reasonable precautions, but keep easy things in place.
[1:53 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Ah maybe.
[1:53 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Unvaccinated should limit going out as much as possible. This is individual’s responsibility.
[1:53 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Anyway overtime SG may produce it's own variant for other countries... π
[1:54 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Government said so, to ban unvaccinated from malls is to protect unvaccinated.
[1:54 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: It's both! Unvax are at risk themselves and everyone else. Higher chance of serious illness. Higher chance of spreading. Higher chance of mutations. Unvax is a very unfortunate position and we must help those who cannot be vaccinated due to med reasons.
[1:55 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: agreed
[1:56 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Why are we looking at the restrictions as disincentives or penalties when in fact, it is done to protect them?
There are only a limited number of ways to prevent infection and eventual death:
1. Stay away from CV19 carriers/infected people
2. Get vaccinated so that even if infected, symptoms will most likely be mild and will recover
So... if not vaccinated, and don;t want to die, then only left with Option 1, which is stay away from places where there will be potentially a lot of CV19 carriers.
[1:57 pm, 11/10/2021] +John Cheong: +1
[1:58 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Stop spreading misinformation!
It has been made very very clear that children under 12 are exempt from these restrictions. And the reason is based on fact/data that shows that the kids so far, had mild (or no) symptoms and mostly recover quickly.
[1:58 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Just putting this off-topic message again (last one) hoping that REACH will introduce a new non Covid topic. This article was in May and we have seen no improvement since then. It's shameful. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/maid-abuse-domestic-worker-helper-mom-employer-agency-1355196 Severed fingers. Humiliation. Abuse. Is this the Singapore we want to live in?
[2:00 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: This is individuals’ responsibility and unvaccinated should take care of themselves and make decisions themselves if they should go to crowded places or not. Policy should not ban them.
[2:00 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: It is to protect them, and all of us actually. If it was just about them, then I'd vote for personal responsibility. We dont need rules telling us how to live our lives if our decisions only affect us. The evidence shows Unvax puts all of society at risk and therefore we need to impose measures to reduce that risk as much as we can.
[2:01 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: See my note above why this is not the case.
[2:01 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: So which day do you propose for those who are vaccinated, who are potentially asymptomatic carriers, to stay home just so that the stubborn anti-vaxxers can have their day out?
[2:01 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Stop spreading misinformation!
It has been made very very clear that children under 12 are exempt from these restrictions. And the reason is based on fact/data that shows that the kids so far, had mild (or no) symptoms and mostly recover quickly.
[2:01 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: https://www.moh.gov.sg/docs/librariesprovider5/pressroom/press-releases/annex-b-(2).pdf?sfvrsn=d6989e16_0
https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/protecting-the-vulnerable-securing-our-future
[2:02 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: π
[2:02 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: Can..
[2:04 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ken Loh: π ok… so my understanding is correct π
[2:04 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: ππ»Tq very much.
[2:05 pm, 11/10/2021] +REACH: https://www.covid.gov.sg/not-sure
[2:06 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Actually if I were the decision-maker, I would say let them (un-vaxxed) do whatever they want.
Anyway, its been shown that the risk for the 85% of vaccinated people (except for those who are >50, have pre-existing conditions) is very low.
Let the stubborn un-vaxxed ones, behave like they are immune. If they get infected, they may or may not die. We get more data on how the virus affects the un-vaxxed. If they end up dying, maybe they died happy having dined-out, and for the rest, we have 1 less idiot to argue with.
[2:07 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Now I see the * part. Ok good. So means kids under 11 are not vulnerable, so no nee to protect them in the malls?
[2:07 pm, 11/10/2021] +Angelica: But they will take up beds in the hospital
[2:07 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: What do you mean? Parents only cannot bring them in if the parent is un-vaxxed, And since these are all hypothetical questions, then, hypothetically, they can ask their vaxxed neighbour/friend/relative to help bring their kid into the mall?
[2:08 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: +1
[2:08 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Stop spreading misinformation!
It has been made very very clear that children under 12 are exempt from these restrictions. And the reason is based on fact/data that shows that the kids so far, had mild (or no) symptoms and mostly recover quickly.
[2:09 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: It sounds easy but has implications. Unvax are a risk to society, themselves and the visitors we want to encourage back to our country. We have to show we are protecting people as much as possible.
[2:09 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Why group chat of people can't afford to have sense of having civil right to see one another to be fairer & better
To be fairer to those UNVAXEX to dine in
in our eateries & shopping mall once in every week
Not a hardest thing to be implemented
But if you totally kill off their right to dine in or visit to shopping mall
It's was too outrageous &
ridiculous
Can be less visit, but cannot be totally off
Low Thia Khiang Wil give applause for sure
My Prime Minister
[2:10 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: I am vaxxed and already refrain from going out unnecessarily, even forgoing regular visits to my old folks or outings with family.
While I would very much like to be in a more open, endemic situation, obviously we are not ready. So I find it hard to resolve being endemic yet with differentiated measures. Kind of defeats the purpose.
But I can appreciate the government finally trying to slow down that push.
I still personally don't agree that unvaxxed should be restricted the way they are now.
If one wants to talk about social responsibility, then everyone should do ART before going out to a public place, because one of the key factors is also whether anyone is infected, unvaxxed or not.
[2:11 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Statistics show people under 50 98% percent are ok. No matter vaccinated or not. Not only kids. Anyway I think kids should not go to malls wondering with parents. They are go to tuition centres that is good enough
[2:11 pm, 11/10/2021] +REACH: Not sure what to do? Use this checker to direct you to the most relevant information.
➡️ https://www.covid.gov.sg/not-sure
[2:13 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Tt is interesting.
I heard fr a fren...
Fren of hers (50's age grp) - UnVax -tested positive.
Then spread to rest of family members.
Elder folks, 2 sons, daughters-in-law , grandkids... Total.. Family of 9 .
All UnVax!
She qualified for community facility but didn't wanna go, cos she shunned the conditions ther fr wat she'd read/seen fr media.
Instead, she requested to be taken to hospital but was rejected cos she did not meet criteria... Not sick enuff, not old enough.
Ended up HRP.
Fortunately for her, she pulled thru.
Now the whole family is gg thru it on HRP.
ππ»
Point is...
It's such diehard like tt who wl then go ard bragging π€¦πΌ♀️ how they (being Un-Vax) cud get thru it.
Without thinking of others who r not of same status as them in age & circumstances.
[2:14 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: I think this is a moot point since the argument is about discrimination/unfairly penalising this group of people when in fact, the reason for the decision is to protect them because they are vulnerable now that restrictions are gradually lifted and the majority (who are vaxxed) can potentially be asymptomatic carriers of the virus.
Unvaxxed >> mingle with vaxxed who may be asymptomatic/infectious >> infected with CV19 >> potentially fall very sick and die
[2:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Hmm... what do you guys think would be the end game for those who remain unvaxxed for tears to come.
[2:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Years
[2:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Well the counter to that is freedom of choice if it's just about protecting the vulnerable. My argument is that it is not just about protecting those who are Unvax it is about protecting everyone.
[2:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Angelica: What is hrp
[2:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Simply let every individual ,who was UNVAXED to decide for themselves which day they visit ,As long once in every week
Is that clear
Are we going to draw the line which hours starts til end of outing
Let this group of people to decide their outing time
I don't have the problem for tbat
[2:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Rama: Home Recovery Programme
[2:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Yeah I agree strongly. Protect everyone. But how could it be less anchoring on the behaviour of unvaxxed and other measures?
[2:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Maybe can appeal to the Enrichment class provider to send their teachers out to receive these (hypothetical) cases? Hypothetically speaking...possible right?
[2:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Angelica: Recovered from covid considered Vaxed?
[2:18 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Not exactly, but for the VDS, I believe so they fall under exempt category like under 12.
[2:18 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: It is in Europe, not sure here though.
[2:19 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Number show us Vulnerable 3000+
At this moment no need to kill of other UNVAXED group of right to going for outing
[2:19 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Home Recovery Program
[2:20 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: Give those with medical condition a Vaccine Exempt status.
[2:21 pm, 11/10/2021] +RH: Second tt!! ππ»
[2:22 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Is the virus ever going to be less harmful for those unvaxxed? I don't think perpetual differentiated measures against unvaxxed is sustainable. I haven't thought about this, wonder if anyone can foresee a scenario for our / world population.
[2:23 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Saw this. actually it did reflect the whole picture. Our death rate is very Low
[2:23 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Children under 12 are treated like Adults who are vaccinated as far as the restrictions are concerned.
And before you start saying G/MOH is not making sense why under 12 can, but adults cannot .. then understand that the reason is probably partly due to the fact that recent cases have shown that under 12, when infected, have only mild symptoms, recover quickly and no signs of long-Covis (so far).
[2:23 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: At some point it will be mandatory, like other vaccines.
[2:23 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: We can be open up for boarders ,but like HK & Taiwan to come over to SG was a challenge
No Government in the world to let's their citizen to a Uncharted territory like SG
I believed hard to convince other national to visit SG b
Base on current number of 3000+ daliy cases in SG
[2:24 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Stop spreading misinformation!
It has been made very very clear that children under 12 are exempt from these restrictions. And the reason is based on fact/data that shows that the kids so far, had mild (or no) symptoms and mostly recover quickly.
[2:28 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Vaccination does not prevent you from catching CV19.
It lowers the likelihood/probability of catching CV19.
It reduces the symptoms when you do catch CV19 so you don’t die as easily.
[2:30 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Statistics show 98% people under 50 had mild or no symptoms, No matter vaccinated or not. Not only kids. Why only kids are exempted? Anyway here I just talk about policy. Unvaccinated should not go to anywhere crowded, but they should self regulated, not by government policy.
[2:30 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: And recent cases have shown that Children under 12, exhibit no/mild symptoms when infected and recover well/quickly with no signs of long-Covid (so far)
[2:30 pm, 11/10/2021] +Caleb: MTF did say if majority get vax, then may not need vax differentiation rules.
[2:30 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: As it is now, those who want to, or have to travel, will travel. And SG remains an air travel transit point.
I recently returned from China on a full flight with zero social distancing. Many are transiting through Changi.
Moving on to all manner of countries, some high, some low covid. Study, work, none I spoke with on holiday.
[2:32 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Most vaccinated feel safe.
Its the unvaxxed and or vaccinated but aged/with pre-existing conditions who should be feeling unsafe because CV19 can be potentially fatal to them
[2:32 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: The “majority” bar is setting higher and higher by experts.
[2:32 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Ok, is there a new goal? I may be outdated, I thought it was 85% and then open up, and here we are.
[2:36 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Do you not believe that it works both ways?
Unvaxxed "protect" everyone by not becoming a vessel for the virus to mutate.
Vaxxed protect the unvaxxed by keeping them away since vaxxed carriers tend to be astmptomatic and when the unvaxxed get infected, the outcome is much worse for them
[2:36 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Long haul man.
For the vaccine to be "approved" and then perhaps, made mandatory... Not sure how many more years?
Or perhaps by then the virus would also have become like any other disease for which we take currently take mandatory jabs.
Depending on the timeline, current differentiated measures may not be feasible.
[2:39 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Stop spreading misinformation! and making straw man arguments.
It has become a well established fact that:
Vaccination does not prevent you from catching CV19.
It lowers the likelihood/probability of catching CV19.
It reduces the symptoms when you do catch CV19 so you don’t die as easily.
And mask wearing reduces the spread/range of the virus...both ways.
[2:41 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: its only fair .. we can't have it any other way πππππ
[2:41 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Well, yes, hence I actually think the narrative of "for unvaxxed own good" is incomplete.
So I believe should not have differentiated measures actually.
By right everyone should show art test, since anyone can also infect or be infected.
So one rule, whether harsh or less harsh, for ALL. Current VDS is a bit hard to swallow. That's just my view.
[2:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Hahaha
[2:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Stop spreading misinformation!
[2:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +ZC: Contribute as a member of the global community π€£
[2:47 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: To me ,no such thing as ✌️✌️New Normal✌️✌️
But ✌️✌️More Restrictions✌️✌️
After Saturday PM Speech
[2:47 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: This is not misinformation! You go and search and read yourself!
[2:49 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: We simply can't going back to pre-covid times
That's the fact of our life
[2:51 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: It had always been about everyone being socially responsible... look where that led us ... even with official guidelines and threat of penalty/punishments π
[2:51 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Otherwise ,We won't asked UNVAX group stay at home all the time
That's clear of everything
We simply can't going back to pre -covid time
How pathetic to this world
[2:53 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Not for long...judging from the recent cases
[2:54 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anne: Yes, the G did state they did it to protect the unvaccinated. But I find the ban to shopping malls is rash and not well thought through, so it is good that MTI and ESG have stepped in to help with the safe distancing within malls.
Actually it is true that the unvaccinated need to be protected - not just from the virus but also from vaccine shedding. Pfizer did mention this in one of their documents that vaccinated people can do vaccine-shedding - meaning the unvaccinated when they go near a newly vaccinated person can be infected with some components of the vaccine and hence exhibit symptoms of a person who is newly vaccinated. I know of two people in Singapore who had already encountered it, and there are probably more out there.
[3:10 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Yeah I read this too. Wonder some unvaccinated kids may got infected from their vaccinated parents.
[3:13 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Wonder if we can have an COVID-19 issuances policy for the unvaccinated people.
[3:13 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: So you are ok to kill them by making it easier for them to catch CV19 ... but have a problem with "kill(ing) their right to dine in"? π€
LTK had been silent on this by the way, In fact, I haven't come across any Opposition Politician who seems to support your train of thought/line of argument.
Vaccination does not prevent you from catching CV19, but it lowers the likelihood/probability of catching CV19 and reduces the symptoms when you do catch CV19 so you don’t die as easily.
So, if 85% of eligible people are vaxxed, then the majority actually have little to worry about in terms of catching CV19. Its the eligible, but stubbornly unvaxxed who should worry. Which then begs the question, why should the majority incur costs and inconvenience for the misguided, stubborn few?
For those who are medically ineligible, which is an even smaller group of people, I do empathise with their plight, but the decision is obviously based on the lesser of 2 evils.
[3:14 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Unvaccinated pay a an insurance so that any cost incurred to COVID-19 paid by the insurance company not government. Is this ok?
[3:18 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Exactly!
But .. who knows .. they may be right. In the end, no one can stop them except maybe their own conscience. - like the 2 fanatics from Risen Christ Church - or the virus. π€·♂️
[3:30 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Your ideas are incoherent and unclear, clear? Just like what you are saying now, makes no sense. If everyone can just choose any day they like, as long as once a week, then might as well don't have any restrictions... because all it takes is one unlucky encounter with an infectious person.
[3:33 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Where did you get that number from?
The unvaxxed are free to get out of the house... just not allowed to mingle in enclosed areas, in close quarters and engaging in activities where the risk of infection is high
[3:34 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: For what purpose?
So they are free to get infected?
As it is, the fact that they are medically ineligible to be vaccinated probably also puts them in the vulnerable group no?
[3:36 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: What is the context of this chart/comparison?
[3:40 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Don't worry ... this differentiated measures are temporary only. Going forward either:
1. Unvaxxed will eventually die if the virus is really so harmful/deadly, in which case, no further differentiation required; or
2. Unvaxxed mostly unharmed despite getting infected, then, differentiated measures will no longer be required; or
3. Scientists successfully discover medication that is highly effective in aiding recovey/preventing death even for unvaxxedm then again... differentiation not required
[3:44 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Yes.. and all our school-going kids should self regulate, do their homework and revision when its time to do so, eat, rest, clean themselves, and produce good academic results. No need for tuition. No need for parents to nag. Mgrs/bosses will also automatically only hire locals, regular promotions and pay rise for all ...
[3:46 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Read somewhere that with Delta variant, we need at least 90%
[3:48 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Hmmm... would you say the same if the entire class is punished because 1 student did not hand in his/her homework on time?
[3:49 pm, 11/10/2021] +Timothy Low: Please do this.
[3:49 pm, 11/10/2021] +Timothy Low: Sure will up vaccination rate
[3:50 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Apologies ... mis-read your message. Yes ... keep unvaxxed away to protect them,
[3:52 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: But the issue if Capable G doing well enough ,We won't have to apply additional measure to stop UNVAXED to dine in or going to S/M
It's telling everything
Government are incapable when's situation G can't stop growing numbers was a faluire
Plus, If we have to stop UNVAXED to dine in or going to S/M, in order to exchange the number down
It was a shame
G can only doing so much by applying more restriction
However number never come down to a 3 digit
It was shameful
[3:56 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Any insurance policy will be based on the historical and expected/projected claims of the group being insured. Given the lower population (15%) of unvaxxed and high probability of infection, coupled with high costs associated with corresponding medical care, the premiums will be so high that no one will sign up for it.
[3:56 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Just my guess
[3:58 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Up til now, Someone stIl see this restriction was a right thing to apply to all UNVAXED
It's showing this country must divide to 2part
Ones is understandable ,
The other group just simply add on to more restrictction without listening to others.needs
How dare this G
[4:00 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Ask LTK then .. since you seem to think that the current situation is the result of the G/MOH's incapability. I would like to hear of the (elusive) better solution.
So easy to sit there, point fingers and criticize.... but never once heard a good suggestion. And before you start saying talking about our Ministers' million $ salaries, let me remind you that the Leader-of-the-Opposition had been taking a not-too-shabby "allowance" that makes most people's eye water ....
[4:04 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: He's not in position to comment anymore
G can only childish measure to keep SG safe
What the hell
In order to keep the number down
Bullshit
I won't buy that
[4:04 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: The G/MOH had pre-empted us when restrictions were relaxed. This was a calculated decision based on vaccination rates, medical capacity and economic considerations. But even the best laid plans don't always work out perfectly.
What I am thankful for, is that the G/MOH is reacting quickly and adjusting to the new situation before it goes totally out of control. That is more than any other country can lay claim to.
[4:05 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: What rubbish!
[4:05 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Pointing fingers always a right thing, As long U citizen
[4:05 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: So typical of pro-opposition supporters
[4:06 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Same to U, after all
[4:06 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: When no supporting argumnets, then either say not paid to do it, or suddenly not in his.her place to say it
[4:06 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: But very good at finger pointing π
[4:07 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: LTK is your Prime Minister wor
[4:07 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: not just ordinary citizen lehj
[4:07 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Doing well number down.
Doing ineffective number up
That's the current situation
Black & White
[4:08 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: which number?
[4:08 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Your PM stIl feel good when number like that
Poor thing
[4:08 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Thought we are way past focusing on the (irrelevant) daily new cases already?
[4:09 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Not other countries, except SG
[4:10 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: I can't speak for how PM Lee feels about it ... but ..as a Singaporean, I have never been more proud about how we have managed the situation given our circumstances and challenges compared ALL other countries.
[4:10 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: U feels good until U kanah for once
Let's see how after then
[4:12 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: We not perfect, but, all things considered, I am thankful. Just have to look across the causeway once in a while to remind yourself of what could have been ... and what can still be if we are not careful
[4:12 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: As I said G doing quite well, during few months
But that was already past
No longer anymore
U get it R×××××
[4:13 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Don't pretend to feel good, instead was something no longer exists anymire
[4:14 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: I thought U don't care the number anymore
[4:15 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: δΈζ―ε₯½，ε»ζ―ε That's U
[4:16 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: No I don't agree because it seems you are only looking at the rising daily new cases ...
I have am looking at it from the perspective that given that the majority are already vaxxed, we do need to shift towards normalisation. I expect a lot of trial and errors along the way because this is a new situation that no one had encountered before. SARs gave us some idea, but as we have discovered this is quite different.
The next focus is communicating away from the initial (need for) fear, towards reassurance.
[4:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: So.... who/where would you rather be? π€·♂️
[4:17 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Anyway.. this is veering too far off course. Apologies all.
[4:18 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Hello go & regional countries
Why U asking
I don't have to name it
U go to find for yourself
[4:19 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: No need, people on the ground Wil understand
[4:25 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: I met Auntie they tell me first 3000+ today again
[4:26 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: If I may add, I think the burden is always on the incumbent to "perform", and it's always easier to blame the government. Who's to say that another team could do better/worse? If its not the current govt, would it be better managed, or worse? Nobody knows π€·π»♂️
What I am thankful, regarding this covid situation, is that we have more or less been able to carry on with our lives (i.e only short period of CB, and a few HA) with very low loss of lives, despite our densely populated country.
End of the day, I feel the most important factor is trust. We must trust our govt to deliver and lead us in the right direction. If govt has lost our trust, no matter how capable they are, it will be pointless as noone will listen nor abide by the rules.
Undoubtedly, t…
[4:28 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: π
[4:29 pm, 11/10/2021] +Ben: No country and no Gov is perfect, but SG reacted quickly and effectively to the problem last year and we avoided long strict lock downs that would have crippled us. Yes, the opening up is cautious, too cautious for some not cautious enough for others. On the whole it seems well balanced. It seems that they were caught on the back foot a few times, but are now being bold and making tough but forward thinking and necessary decisions. I look forward to continued progress towards opening borders where possible, containing the spread and getting us all back to normal (which includes letting kids play football!)
[4:30 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: If G are more sensible they can always consult public opinion & feels on the ground first ,instead kicking in with such drastic measure
[4:33 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Not a difficult task to ask to this group 15% after all
Can be less, But cannot no longer to eat out
It's was too much & empathy on ground
[4:33 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Zero
[4:34 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: δΊΊζ ε³，ζ们ζ°ε ε‘，
沑δΊ
[4:37 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: My personal opinion is that public consultations might actually have been done. It could very well be a case of 80% agreeing but are staying silent, and 20% disapproving but are extremely vocal.
In this regard, the decision is based on public opinion, where 80% supported. But we are only hearing from the 20% who voice their disapproval. In other words, the 80% won't be actively publicising their support for the measures, whereas the 20% are.
[4:38 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: That's why I said δΊΊθ―·ε³ ζ²‘δΊ
[4:39 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: Not that don't have, but it's very hard to get a 100/0. Even if it's 99/1, the 1% also will kena.
Not that we don't care about them, but it's really bobianπͺ
[4:40 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: One person dine in once every week ,
We go to Voting now
What about that
Just key Yes Or No
[4:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +Rama: No
[4:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: I agree lower risk, but hard and might not be practical to enforce
[4:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: If G determine & willing to do that only
[4:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: The issue I have, is that nowadays, its the vocal minorities who are perpetuating misinformation and driving the narrative because the majority choose to remain silent. A lot of the anger/discontent is the result of hearsay and spreading unsubstantiated material as the gospel truth. If only people spend as much time fact checking as they do banging table we might actually have a happier society.
[4:43 pm, 11/10/2021] +CQ: It's impossible to enforce. Unless you log the entry in their TT and it resets every Sunday 2359.
[4:43 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Exactly!
[4:43 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: That being said, Its plausible that this will happen in the future, when we step by step allow the unvaccinated to do more things
[4:44 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: NO
[4:44 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: Possible*
[4:44 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: I don't need U to Vote
I know your type liao
[4:45 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: You don't say, I don't assume
[4:45 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: If want to open up to the floor then be prepared for the replies
[4:45 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Not for U
[4:46 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Ohhh... must get your permission ha
[4:46 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: hahhaha
[4:47 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: I ask mah，but not to U lah
[4:47 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: nest time indicate leh... "this qn oipen to all except ...."
[4:47 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: you didn't indicate
[4:48 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: then i see ... depending on whether i like the way you ask or not.. i may or may not accede to your request
[4:48 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: My remark ζ°ε ε‘ηηε°δΊδΊΊζ ε³
[4:48 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Old Stephen Chow better
[4:49 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: U put young Andy Lau better
[4:49 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: ππ
[4:49 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: That's nice
[4:50 pm, 11/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. It is very clear that Delta variants is very contagious - more than 5 to 9 times more contagious than flu - and containing Delta transmission by lockdown is no longer possible.
Many Countries all over the World have discovered this - and hence we have to learn to "Live with covid" - while minimising developing serious illness or death from covid - as we learn to live with covid.
2. The current best measures to ensure population can "live alongside covid" is 2 jabs vaccination and to receive a 3rd jab booster shot when anti-bodies wane.
No other better viable measures are available - except this measure as demonstrated by the statistics produce here and worldwide.
3. Hence,
a. Encouraging and enforcing full vaccination plus booster shot - become our mainstay policy to get the total population vaccinated in order to protect themselves, the society and the Nation - and prevent overwhelming the hospital resources and causing tremendous strain on our medical services.
b. By living with covid - as Delta become too contagious that will infect a large part of the population that potentially can run up to hundred of thousands or even millions - depending on hospital beds, community beds and other isolation facilities will no longer be feasible - and hence Home Recovery program will only be the viable approach as most will come down with illness that are mild as majority are vaccinated.
[4:58 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Japan and hongkong controls well. Maybe We can get some ideas from them.
[4:59 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: Only if by control you mean "no testing"
[4:59 pm, 11/10/2021] +Joseph: I have relatives living in Japan ,,, they are scared for their lives
[5:03 pm, 11/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
4. To let the population understand the covid stages we are going through, we need to clearly paint the pictures at what stage we are in now and what stage we will enter into after this stage.
a. We are now in the "covid naive" state, characterised by > 85% vaccination and acquire Vaccinated Immunity.
But this is not good enough to curb the Delta variants - as Delta is able to make breakthrough in the vaccinated population - unless the population acquire "Superhuman Immunity" which is characterised by :-
Superhuman Immunity = Vaccinated immunity + Natural infection immunity, or;
Superhuman Immunity = Vaccinated immunity + 3rd jab booster immunity.
Note:- the current spike in infection number, high hospitalisation number, high serious illness - oxygen support, ICUs or even some death --- is the result of population not acquiring the Superhuman immunity.
Hence, our Government are trying to roll out the 3rd jab booster immunity for those 30 years and above.
Also allowing live with covid - where unfortunately many people will also get infected - as we don't adopt full lockdown - due to the high transmission rate of Delta.
Both measures will result in Superhuman Immunity - while unfortunately, some minority will succumb with going through this "covid naive stage".
[5:04 pm, 11/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Commments :-
Endemic don't look like this.
It should be a plateau stabilised trend.
This is a covid naive state - that show upward trajectory - where even more than 85% vaccinated and unvaccinated people are infected, and mostly unvaccinated are hospitalised and fall into serious illness.
[5:08 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: Endemic living with 4 digit ,Anyone won't feel good to go outing anymore unless essential
[5:09 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Why they said that? For you to feel better? Their numbers are much lower.
[5:16 pm, 11/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
5. 2 conditions will take place when we burn through this "covid naive" stage --- and enter into a Stabilisation stage -- where infection number drop, hospitalisation drop, serious illness eg. oxygen support or ICUs or death --- all drop into a manageable level.
Only at this level, is a state - where we can consider ourselves "Endemic" ---- the same state experiencing by Denmark and Norway.
Because our total population have acquire Superhuman Immunity either through :-
Superhuman Immunity = Vaccinated immunity + Natural infection immunity, or;
Superhuman Immunity = Vaccinated immunity + 3rd jab booster immunity.
6. Note :- we are far away from this state --- as 5.45 million population has not acquired the Superhuman Immunity (either through 3rd jab booster or through natural infection).
Our booster shot just roll out to elderly above 60 years old -- not all have the 3rd jab.
Natural infection (about 3000 per day) - unfortunately some succumb and die.
--- Have not covered the total population of 5.45 million people.
Hence, it will be a few months of endurance and tolerance before we can tie through the "covid naive stage - mark by high vaccination and high infection" ---- before we can enter more safely into "Endemic stage".
7. Note that to acquire Superhuman Immunity :- "Full vaccination" is the mandatory and essential foundation.
For unvaccinated people who are infected and recover - is not good enough - and have not acquire Superhuman Immunity and will still get infected in future.
For those who get full vaccination and subsequently get infected or receive 3rd jab booster - they will acquire Superhiuman Immunity ---- and will be in a very good position to withstand future covid strain infection --- and can safely transit into Endemic.
-----
[5:19 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anne: Sometimes the G does a ε ζ©εε₯ kind of thing. Announce first then consult us. The mall ban is now pushed back by 1 week as they cannot deny essential services to the unvaccinated. VoRT is another example. Now in part thanks to the unvaccinated rushing to stockpile the ART test kits, very often retailers run out of stock. Seriously, what is the point of getting our feedback AFTER they announce publicly?
[5:27 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anthony: This is not rightgeous way of doing thing , Especially G must set themselves a good example to earn the trust from the people not the opposite one ε½δΈͺε₯½ζΏεΊ
[5:32 pm, 11/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
8. The Government knows and acknowledge that Vaccination is the "Key" to subdue this covid pandemic - in order to safely transit into "Endemic".
9. PM Lee in his speech has openly say so - that he is very worried for the Elderly who has yet refused to vaccinate for whatever reasons --- and this will be the main group - that will disrupt our Nation effort to transit safely to Endemic.
10. Hence the Government has enforced differentiated service on those unvaccinated people - and restrain them from visiting mall or dine-out (short of Mandatory Vaccination) - to either protect the unvaccinated as well as nudge them to vaccinate (short of Mandatory Vaccination).
11. As expected, those anti-vaxx or vaxx-hesistant will start making noise - which make up about 5% of the total population as 85% adults have vaccinated (leaving 5% adults and elderly yet to vaccinate) - where the remaining 10% of young children not eligible to vaccinate.
12. I support the Government effort to enforce the differentiated service to "protect and nudge" those unvaccinated adults and elderly to vaccinate - else they will not enjoy the priviliege they used to enjoy.
In fact, I received many support in my private chat groups to support Government differentiated service or mandatory vaccination - to help the Nation - to safely transit to Endemic through vaccination.
Differentiated service is the mainstay strategy adopted by many Government worldwide and in fact only vaccinated travellers can enter other Countries borders.
Government with the support of the majority should stand resolute to ensure - eventually 100% of the population will get vaccinated and acquire the Superhuman Immunity and the entire Nation can transit to Endemic safely.
13. There are only 5% adults and elderly who has steadfastly refuse to vaccinate - and I strongly believe the Government with the majority support - can help the Government to stand resolute and pull through the vaccination program to cover 100% of the population.
Note :- US President Biden is even tougher - an advocate of Mandatory Vaccination - that help to pull many stubborn ones over the line.
Our Government has so far use persuasion plus some pseudo-hard technique Differentiated Service - and still reap good result.
Let us hope the Government resolve and effort will eventually succeed --- w
and we will wait for the day when the Government declare - Singapore has reached the Stabilisation Stage - and declare ourselves "Endemic" !
====
[5:35 pm, 11/10/2021] +Sam: I suspect that dining place is a high risk place as people may spit the food on the table, touching the table, putting the soiled tissue on the table. So it is not about 2 person or 5 person dining. It is the setting. The place. I am sure that the cleaner also will not sanitise the table as fast and as frequent compare to restaurant. So in order to protect our unvaccinated elderly, the ban is essential. I do understand many elderly has nothing to look forward to and dining in is the only pleasure they can have. But precisely that that they are at risk. Do understand delta variant is high contagious. If we emphatise with the elderly, encourage them to vaccinate instead.
[5:47 pm, 11/10/2021] +Sam: Sometimes we also tend to make comments based on our bias and emotion, not looking into some scientific data ( which we may not have access to) , expert opinions, ground feedback and other as important considerations (live and livelihood, present and future) etc. I trust the government will be making a more informed decision than us. Since ours are an elected government, that's why we are having this channel to let government know the ground sentiments.
[5:48 pm, 11/10/2021] +REACH: Children under 12 to be allowed to travel under vaccinated travel scheme: CAAS
Unvaccinated children under the age of 12 will now be allowed to travel quarantine-free under a vaccinated travel scheme, the Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) announced on Monday (Oct 11).
More https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/children-under-12-to-be-allowed-to-travel-under-vaccinated-travel-scheme-caas
[6:20 pm, 11/10/2021] +Anne: Feedback from a BFF:
Regarding the latest news, disappointed does not even begin to justify the range of emotions I feel! Just 2 months ago, National Day was pushed back but wasn't it important to still celebrate our nation's birthday as one people and one nation? Or am I mistaken? Yet less than 2 months later, Singapore appears to me to have drawn some arbitrary lines between the vaccinated (with 2 shots with at least 14 days after the second shot or having recovered from covid) and unvaccinated (everybody else who doesn't fall into those categories). Or am I mistaken?
Circuit Breaker and its "variants", we, as one nation complied, wear masks, we complied yet again, no dine in and we complied. Unvaccinated not able to dine in apart from hawker centres and coffeeshops? Again we complied! Have we given in too much without asking for proper justification?
Didn't Fauci go on International TV to declare that the viral load of the vaccinated and the unvaccinated is "exactly the same" (his words)? So is this really about keeping the unvaccinated safe or is it about flexing of muscles against Singapore's own unvaccinated law abiding citizens? Is now a crime to be unvaccinated? What is the meaning of not mandating emergency authorised vaccines? What about those who have allergies, or had side effects from the vaccination or their faith does not allow them to be vaccinated in good conscience, or are pregnant, or are breast feeding, or are fighting their own health battles without having a vaccine being imposed on them? What is so criminal about this group that they now cannot even be given entrance to malls to pick up their essentials or if they work there, to access their workplace? What if people need access to a mall because of the amenities available in there? Need I be more direct? Bear in mind that this group of people are just like any other Singaporean who pay their taxes? Why is every effort being made to make it so very difficult for this group to live out their lives with basic human dignity? Is that too much to ask?
As the covid situation evolves and Singapore is working to move towards an endemic situation, would the resources and efforts put in to police the entry into malls be better utilised on saving precious lives and enhancing current protocols which seem to be hastily pushed through without proper consultation and discussion? This surely does nothing to endear the policy makers to its citizens and does little to raise Singapore's status among the international watchers, does it?
Since 84% of those domiciled in Singapore have been vaccinated and the numbers are still spiralling out of control, do the vaccines actually work as originally claimed (97% and 96% efficacy respectively)?
Unvaccinated have had their rights severely limited and I would expect that they exercise more prudence during this time of rising covid numbers. Surely the unvaccinated take even more care so that they can keep themselves safe, for themselves, for their families and for ultimately for Singapore. Or am I mistaken? So why do the numbers still rise? Could it be that those who are vaccinated feel safer and are out in greater numbers during this time due to vaccination status? I am no doctor, but I think all valid questions should be asked if we are all to work together to fight for the survival of our homeland. Thank you.
[6:35 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: I observe that religion is one of the common reasons for not being vaccinated.
Just wondering, would it be useful for the religious leaders to step forward to clarify the official position on this? For example, if the church were to say vaccinations are ok and does not go against the bible's teachings, believers might be more likely to get vaccinated and not be influenced by hearsay. Then, issues like the lady who took ivermectin at the encouragement of her church friends might not have happened. (This is an example, am not saying I know everything about the church/bible)
I vaguely recall this was done last year, where MUIS said vaccines are permissable for Muslim use. Think it would be useful for other religious bodies to step forward to clarify too
[6:36 pm, 11/10/2021] +Rama: You are right about religion coming in between.
[6:39 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: Just think it would be useful! So those on the fence can have some proper advice instead of relying on "friend's friend"
That being said, it would be an absolute disaster if the religious leaders stepped forward and said "no vaccine for (insert religion)"π
[6:40 pm, 11/10/2021] +CQ: The Pope came forward quite early on to say vaccines were alright
[6:40 pm, 11/10/2021] +Rama: Yes
[6:41 pm, 11/10/2021] +An fan: Even if religion took a part, 85%/91%eligible(minus 9% under 11) =93.40% 12+ already vaccinated. This still can not get herds immunity? Or no such thing at all? As one nus-duke doctor said during radio broadcasting with strait times.
[6:41 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: Oh I didn't know this!
[6:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +Rama: I can vouch for this as a roman Catholic
[6:42 pm, 11/10/2021] +CQ: https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2021-08/pope-francis-appeal-covid-19-vaccines-act-of-love.html
[6:43 pm, 11/10/2021] +CQ: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55409693
And this was as early as Dec 2020!
[6:44 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: ππ»ππ»ππ» we should be reminding people of this then π and hopefully the other religious leaders step forward to! Especially those in Singapore
[6:45 pm, 11/10/2021] +CQ: https://www.catholic.sg/pastoral-letter-on-covid-19-vaccine/
Singapore also issue liao ah
[6:48 pm, 11/10/2021] +CQ: So the problem isn't so much what the religious leaders are preaching or not preaching, it's the availability of fake news and people who claim to be "Christian influences" on social media perpetuating falsehoods and misquoting religion to advance their own agenda.
[6:49 pm, 11/10/2021] +Adrian: My personal thought, can.
With the current "herd immunity" of sorts, but I believe the increase in cases will just be less exponential. Still exponential, but less.
I don't have the data, but I believe the R rate would be lower now than it was at the start of the pandemic, which supports the herd immunity logic
[6:50 pm, 11/10/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 10 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan
[6:57 pm, 11/10/2021] +Stan: Fyi for background
This is from the leading Christian magazine in the christian community.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/april-web-only/why-christians-refuse-measles-vaccinations-moral-grounds.html
[6:58 pm, 11/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Animals also living things. Why people eat with no compassion?
[6:59 pm, 11/10/2021] +Smiley face: 11 October, 2021
To: Distinguished MTF, DMS And All Honorable Members
"Roll The Dice?" The Biggest Metropolis Two Degrees North of the Equator."
'If everything that exists has a place, place too will have a place, and so on ad infinitum.'
- - Aristotle
What's your exposure to covid?
To identify and fully understand one's key competitor weakness and strength perhaps one will strategise to overcome one's weaknesses to counter this competitor - C-19!... "my weakness is your strength, your threat is my opportunity, vice versa"
Previous discussion, the stratification of covid risk by age group, in addition, three key metrics of concern for policymakers, businesses and individuals. The foremost threat of these three (VTV) is the duration of a defined …
[6:59 pm, 11/10/2021] +Rama: π€·♂️
[7:00 pm, 11/10/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
[7:00 pm, 11/10/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
That's why we have pandemic
======
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