REACH 289 - What do you think of the new Prime Location Public Housing (PLH) model? (SK)

27 Oct 2021 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[0:48 pm, 27/10/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors,

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[1:00 pm, 27/10/2021] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢 

The Ministry of National Development (MND) and Housing & Development Board (HDB) have announced details of the Prime Location Public Housing (PLH) model to ensure that new public housing built in prime and central locations like the city centre and the Greater Southern Waterfront will remain affordable, accessible and inclusive for Singaporeans. 

💬 What do you think of the new Prime Location Public Housing (PLH) model? 

Key measures under the new PLH model are: 

📌 Additional subsidies provided at first sale will be recovered upon resale of PLH flats. This is for parity with other BTO flat owners who do not enjoy these additional subsidies 

📌 Reduced priority allocation quota for priority schemes such as the Married Child Priority Scheme. This provides more opportunities for Singaporeans whose family members do not live near prime locations, to also live in these neighbourhoods. 

📌 Additional eligibility conditions for buyers of resale PLH flats. This is to ensure that PLH flats remain inclusive and accessible to a broad group of subsequent flat buyers over time, beyond the initial purchase. 

📌 10-year MOP for PLH flats, and renting out the whole flat will not be allowed even after MOP. Only renting out spare bedrooms will be allowed. This is to strengthen the owner-occupation intent and ensure that the PLH flats are for Singaporeans with genuine housing needs. 

👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/bto-prime-area-10-year-minimum-occupation-period-subsidy-hdb-2271426

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[1:24 pm, 27/10/2021] +Wilson Leong: Good initiative by government

[1:25 pm, 27/10/2021] +Ah Heng: Good ahhh

[1:25 pm, 27/10/2021] +Ah Heng: Kill Those speculation

[1:27 pm, 27/10/2021] +Valli: HDB flats should not be used for making money or speculation.

[1:30 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: All the Govt needs to do to curb speculation in property, is to set a higher minimum mortgage rate, increase the cash down-payment requirement and close any loopholes that can circumvent these 2 rules.

[1:37 pm, 27/10/2021] +Wilson Leong: High downpayment will make first timer not able to afford and settle down with their first flat. Longer waiting period for them

[1:37 pm, 27/10/2021] +RH: Also reduce the sale of land for building more pte condos...  and more pte condos  ... !

My son has bn trying to get a BTO near where I live (further most East region) , but ther is no new project here for past few years & wat little ther is has alredi bn taken up. 

Couples who r newly 'eligible' like my son & his fiancee can't get one becoz much of the empty land ard us has bn sold to pte developers to build even More condos!   And ther are alredi so many of them in this area,  not to mention landed housing. 

So,  gov, pls look into the East area (not Tampines)  but further east (not Punggol either) & 

switch some empty land use back to public housing!!!

[1:37 pm, 27/10/2021] +John Cheong: wow so easy. I'm sure the government didn't think about it.

[1:38 pm, 27/10/2021] +RH: +1

[1:42 pm, 27/10/2021] +RH: The gov has alredi done 2 rounds of pty curbing measures.

Setting a higher mortgage rate wl not stop ppl from buying or speculating,  as this grp of ppl hv the money to invest. 

Rather,  it wl affect those genuine home-owner type of buyers,  esp those buying their 1st pty. 

Same w min cash down-payment. It wl be even harder for 1st time pty buyers to own a home as they may not hv amassed enuff to put down for deposit (as it is, some ppl I know r alreadi complaining abt these measures). 

Tt wud therefore only exacerbate the situation.

[1:44 pm, 27/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. The purpose of this new measures are to open up prime location for public housing to share the fruits of our economic success and to bridge the gap of social inequality.

2. This is to prevent the very rich from forming enclaves in the upmarket prime location.

3. In addition, the government have to make it affordable and fair, so that public users can afford the HDB flat in the prime location.

4. Hence agree with the measures announced by the government to take this initiative forward.

[1:44 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: HIgh downpayment will force the ovr price lower. The only reason why prices go up is because people can borrow to buy what they can't otherwise afford.

Once you take away the cheap funding, the price will have to adjust DOWN to the "new level of affordability"

[1:44 pm, 27/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Solution 1 - For HDB owners

1. Pricing the HDB flat in designated prime location

a. HDB flat pricing (whether in prime location or not) - must be based on market value. 

(This is to conform to Free Market Economic Principle). 

b. Economic commodities must be correctly price - so as not to artifically skewed HDB prices - and distort the HDB reselller market.

- ie. if price too low to make the HDB flat affordable, it will have a lottery effect - where people will resell it for huge profit - the moment the restriction to resell is lifted --- and turn it into an investment product rather than a house to be lived in.

- By pricing at market rate, people will according to their affordability bid for such flats at prime location or other places in which they can afford.

2. Characteristics of such HDB flats in designated prime location

- It is important not to attest exceptional conditions to HDB flats build in prime location - and make it extraordinary.

- Hence suggest that most of the HDB characteristics to be kept - as these HDB characterisitcs are designed for their specific purposes such as :-

a. 99 years lease will still be maintained - like all other HDB flats. (So as to ensure HDB owners can live for 2 generations - and not short-changed - simply because this flats fall under prime location).

b. Allocation of flat subject to balloting - just like other HDB flats. (So as to ensure fairness in flat allocation)

c. Car park, landscaping, park, playground for recreation and void deck for social interaction - can be slightly upmarket as compared to normal HDB flats or inherit some characteristics of a condo - to blend in with the ambience of the prime location estates ---- but ensuring the town council fees are not exorbitant.

3. Sharing or Allocating a prized market commodity in the prime location - equitably across the various income and social strata of population

a. A few dimensional matrix can be constructed for this purpose.

b. 1st dimension of the matrix is the income group, that can be divided into :-

- High income

- Middle income

- Lower income

(Note:- a more granular income categories can be considered - based on more informed data from the Government).

c. 2nd dimension of the matrix is based on races, that comprise of :-

- Chinese

- Malay

- Indian

- Others

d. Balloting will be based on these 2 dimensional matrix - for the purpose of fair allocation.

- Allocation should be based on the proportion of population belonging to the different income group and racial group.

4. Ensure buyers of HDB owners can afford the flat in prime location - if based on market value.

a. The categories of income group - is the primary determinant of how to ensure various income strata of the population can afford HDB flats in prime location.

b. Various categories of income group

i. High Income group - no or minimal subsidy or grant should be given to this group. 

ii. Middle income group - Government subsidy or grant higher than normal HDB flats should be granted - that make it comparable to the normal HDB 5-room, 4-room and 3-room flat. 

Eg. the 5 room flat at market price in the prime location can fetch $1 million dollars. The Government grant and subsidy should covered the amount up to the selling price to HDB middle income owners for said - $600,000 and HDB owners will have to pay $400,000 out-of-pocket from CPF or HDB loans for 20 years.

iii. Lower income group - Even higher government subsidy or grant higher than normal HDB flats should be granted - that make it comparable to the normal HDB 5-room, 4-room and 3-room flat.

5. Preventing HDB owners from undertaking speculative activities - by reselling for huge profit once they are allowed to sell after 5 years (like any other HDB flats).

a. Allow reselling only after 10 years as the MOP (Mandatory Occupation Period).

b. HDB owners upon reselling the flats in prime location - must repay the subsidy and grants to the Government (with exception to the High Income group - who pay using its own pocket with no government grant).

Taking the earlier example, HDB owners will have to repay grants or subsidy of $600,000 to the Government.

c. At the end of the lease of 99 years, Government reclaim the land - and there are no lost to the Government as the Government can resell the land again.

6. Beefing up Government financial reserves to finance higher HDB subsidy and grants in designated prime location.

a. By carving up and allocating land spaces to private property developers to build condo, landed properties, malls and other commercial projects - by selling these designated prime location for commercial development at market rates.

b. Government sell to property developers - to build HDB flat at prime location at market price.

Eg. 1 plot of land to build 3 HDB blocks in other location - Government can sell to the property developer at say $500 million.

But at prime location, the Government can sell it at $1 billion to property developers.

Thus with $500 million (extra premium) earn by the Government from selling the land at prime location, $500 million / $600,000 (grant) = 833 household can be used as Government grant or subsidy to household.

Government can thus subsidise (30 floor x 10 household unit = 300 household per block === approximately 3 HDB blocks of household with $600,000 grant).

===============

Solution 2 - By *time-slicing the lease for HDB and price it at an affordable price* (As proposed by my close friend)

This is not workable. It creates a lottery effect that people one to strike it and make money. 

Is it fair to the rest of population that they help to subsidise? And few people make lots of money? 

Schemes like EC, Duxton all have the same problem. Many people subsidizing very small number of people. Only very small number of people happy at the expense of large group of people. Where is the fairness? And equity? Singapore is very tiny, make every estate prime should be the goal but of course it may take another 50 years. In the mean time, make it affordable by slicing up the lease tenure.

Today a new bto flat is 99years the enough to let 2 and 2 half generations stay. Papa buys and stay with grandpa and children. Papa passed down to son and son and live with grandchildren. So thats 2 and 2 half generations.

If we time slice the tenure to 49 years or 30 years for hdb flats in such prime location, then we can make them more affordable without unfairly unsubsidising and creating a lottery effect. And by time slicing, we are also allowing more Singaporeans a chance to live there.

So a young couple may choose to live in prime location, during their prime days. And move out and retire to heartland area later prt of their life. Let new young couple move in. If the lease is shorten to get 30 years, we will allow 3 times more people to enjoy the prime location. We will also limit the lottery effect as the leasehold is short.

---

My comments :-

1. Time slicing of the lease for HDB prime location is particularly useful for Elderly - 60 years and above.

2. As the theme of the discussion - is to embrace "diversity" and "inclusiveness" - by allocating HDB in prime location to Elderly will meet this objective.

3. Elderly at 60 years and above - with time-slicing into 40 years will be useful - as this will means Elderly will have a runway of a roof over their head in prime location up to 100 years of age.

4. Government will not need to provide "hefty" Government grant or subsidy to Elderly household - as the lease is a short lease of 40 years and the price of the HDB flat should be kept affordable to the Elderly.

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[1:45 pm, 27/10/2021] +RH: Rather, stop selling out so much land for pte Devt! 

Take a step back & review yr land sales policy...  

Right now, I see most activity in the North,  West,  and N-E. 

Sadly, the East region near Pasir Ris seems neglected.

Other than some BTO's (now alredi TOP), built a few years ago, I dun see any other new BTO slated for devt in this area.

[1:47 pm, 27/10/2021] +Wilson Leong: This is not the case for direct HDB. It is already considered very affordable when buy first hdb in Queenstown 4 rm flat at $720k

[1:48 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: Not that they didn;t think of that ... but they probably don't have the balls to do it because the 90+% of "homeowners" whose property value is going to plunge, will threaten to vote them out 😂

Go, find a free mortgage calculator app (from DBS bank etc) .. punch in the numbers and see for yourself.

[1:48 pm, 27/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: Posted on 3 July 2021.

[1:50 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: Just look at what is happening in with the new cars market ...

Why is it that prices keep going up but everyone seem to still be able to "afford" it?

Low car loan rates + ease of getting a loan + finance companies that can circumvent the loan restrictions which apply to banks only ... allowing borrowers to "afford" the relatively low monthly repayments

[1:51 pm, 27/10/2021] +RH: Agree : pts 4, 5, 6 ... Well stated...  👍🏻

[1:52 pm, 27/10/2021] +KSFoong: Live beyond means. One day when they cannot pay their loans, they will blame the government! Cry victim!

[1:53 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Cannot live beyond means due to Singapore tight management of credit. People only get into trouble if they lose jobs or other unknown problems happen.

[1:54 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: Rather than argue with me .. why don't you go find a free Mortgage calculator App (or online website)... punch in a higher down payment eg. 35%, higher mortgage rate eg. 5%   and then see how much down payment you need to come up with, and what the monthly mortgage will be ... then bearing in mind the media household income in Singapore is about 9k+ ... and ask yourself how many people you know will be able to afford those payments 

Next... adjust the PRICE of the property (or loan) down a LOWER level so that keeping the same 35% down payment + 5% mortgage rate it reaches a level that you think you will not struggle to repay

[1:54 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Yes, and make it less attractive for landlords to exploit tenants.

[2:00 pm, 27/10/2021] +Rama: Good move

[2:03 pm, 27/10/2021] +Wilson Leong: Car loan is downpayment 40%. I just changed my car. Loan only 60% of the listed price. Even I wanted to loan more. They said no

[2:05 pm, 27/10/2021] +Adrian: Support the latest measures. Agree that measures should aim to encourage home ownership rather than investing in property

[2:06 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Also agree. Property speculate abroad. We need the land and homes for people here.

[2:07 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Thumbs Up SG! 👍

[2:09 pm, 27/10/2021] +Adrian: Specific to PLH flats, another issue discussed during the consultations was how to ensure a good mix of people living in the area (i.e not just the higher income)

Possible option is to provide additional subsidies/quota to the lower income so they can still be able to stay in such prime locations. This is to avoid having all the richer people in these prime locations, leaving the less well off all living in towns further away

[2:09 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Perhaps also introduce a bill that gives tenants protection against abusive landlords and agents. Enforce Deposits into Escrow. Basically clean up the industry to make it better for ethical agents, good landlords and responsible tenants. Right now it's seen as a cash cow by some unscrupulous landlords, of which I've been a victim of myself - twice!

[2:10 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Correct - One Singapore!

[2:11 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: it is "affordable" at 720k because you only come up with 5% cash downpyment, 15% CPF and borrow the rest at 1% for 30-35 years

Purchase price: 720k

5% cash = 36k

15% CPF = 108k (combined; couple)

30yr loan @ 1% p.a.

Monthly repayment = 1,853/- (can use CPF)

If we change the parameters:

35% cash downpayment: 252k

👆About 2.5x the amount .. not many young couples would have this on hand

30yr loan @ 5% p.a.

Monthly repayment = 2512/-

👆 about 36% more in monthly repayment

In order to maintain the same downpayment of 36k with a 35% upfront down payment, the property price would have to be much much lower. And, to maintain the same 1,853/mth mortgage at 5% loan rate, the loan amount will need to be much lower/

Which means, if the majority of the people cannot afford to pay the sky high prices anymore dure to the restrictions, then the SALE PRICE has to be adjust DOWN to the level that the majority can afford.

The problem with doing this, is that those who pay a million $ for their resale HDB, will suddenly see the "value" of their property fall by half and the banks will be knocking on their doors demanding a cash top up 😜

[2:11 pm, 27/10/2021] +Wilson Leong: Lower income can not afford. Will need to pay alot for them

[2:12 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: I think a lot of people in this forum were not even born when SG mortgage interest was around 10%

[2:12 pm, 27/10/2021] +Adrian: Not sure whether foreigners have to pay more for private property also? I thought something like an ABSD of sorts for foreigners might be useful, as I personally feel many foreigners are buying up private properties for investment

 Personal experience, i went to see a few condo showrooms, wah the number of foreigners there is a lot. Some are even viewing via zoom (potentially from overseas?). Not to say I'm anti foreigners, but I welcome them to stay here, not to invest in properties here and compete with the locals for limited land

[2:15 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Is it a concern if foreigners buy privately and choose to rent or not? There is no subsidy and their dollars are welcome!

[2:17 pm, 27/10/2021] +Adrian: During the consultations, the view was that hdb is public housing. Whether in prime or non prime, it's still public at subsidized rates. 

Hence, the goal was to have a variety of people being able to live in prime locations, and not just higher income. Lower income should be supported by rebates/subsidies. Otherwise, the concern is our prime locations public housing will end up being a rich people "enclave" of sorts, which shld not be the case. I would strongly support if we have some low wage workers being able to apply to stay in prime districts too🙏🏻

[2:18 pm, 27/10/2021] +Adrian: Private properties all no subsidies. But the strong demand from foreigners in the private property market could be driving prices up (my personal view, not supported by data)

[2:19 pm, 27/10/2021] +Adrian: But okay that's another topic for another another day😄

[2:20 pm, 27/10/2021] +Gcml: 👏🏼

I am glad that the moves address a big part of what public housing means.

[2:34 pm, 27/10/2021] +REACH: First BTO project in Rochor under new prime housing model to launch in November

The first project under a new model for public housing in prime locations will be built in Rochor and launched at the Build-to-Order (BTO) exercise next month.

More https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/first-bto-project-in-rochor-under-new-prime-housing-model-to-launch-in-november

[2:37 pm, 27/10/2021] +RH: U did not say to lower the overall price of flat. 

Therefore, one wud no change in base price.  🤪

[2:37 pm, 27/10/2021] +RH: 👆🏻this is much clearer. 

But like u say,  it wud create a new set of problems  ...

[2:55 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: I have Not read The Messages above yet . 

But commenting as A salesperson😉

1. Bold Moves Appreciate all of it

2. But Forgetting about other locations might give wrong idea and prices won't be controlled.

3. Even In punggol now We can see Owners getting huge profits.

And Sale prices even crossed 700K.

4. So it is not just location

It's the Newly MOP craziness is the Main cause of concern.

5. What ever happening now I feel a bubble in some segments (Many may not agree ...😉 Its my opinion)

6. If we have seen the data Only The newly MOP flats are Going for higher and higher prices, where as Old and Low lease flats fonding hard to sell. Especially In older estates with EIP

7. Because of less than 60 lease Left Cpf rules, majority owners Will be in trouble 

Also alredy in trouble in all old estates. 

8. if we say those who Purchased for 750k .reselling at 900k

Is Having more profit 

But forgetting those who purchased for 400k now selling In 700k (plz chk Puggol example)

9. So The moves are good 

But Deffinatly not enough😃

And if HDB is for to stay .. and then no need to have 60 years lease left rules.

Or if HDB is for retirement, precisely this 60 years lease thing should be removed.

[2:55 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: One of the mechanism of price change, is the buyers' ability to pay.

Ability to pay is artificially inflated by (easy) credit.

When a buyer is allowed to borrow against a future promise to repay, for present consumption. Credit is not always a bad thing, but if you want to bring prices DOWN, then the most effective way is to restrict credit availability/reduce leverage.

[3:02 pm, 27/10/2021] +Timothy Low: Singles above 35 years old will not be allowed to buy these PLH flats. This is in contrast to current rules that do not place limitations on singles above the age of 35 buying resale flats.

Source: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/subsidy-clawback-10-year-mop-for-new-prime-location-hdb-flats-to-keep-them

Once again singles are being discriminated by the government.

[3:03 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: There is already ABSD in place for Prs and Foreigners For Condos.

If need may be having ABSD for PRs for HDB is the option left😉

Or restriction of PRs buying Just MOP flats.

(This might make Huge difference IMO)

[3:04 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: +1

[3:05 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: At the end of the day, WHAT IS THE POINT OF EVER RISING PROPERTY PRICES to the majority/average citizen?

If you only ~own ~ "have" 1 property, when prices rise, you sell at a gain. Lets say 100%.

What almost always happens is after repaying the outstanding loans and paying back CPF for the interest for utilising your CPF to repay mortgage, is you will take that $ and use it as down-payment for the biggest/newest/nicest condo that the new Monthly loan repayment allows you to "buy".

The cycle continues until such time, the market corrects crashes and you are forced to adjust your leverage. Hopefully you are not bankrupted in the process and/or are still young enough to have time to rebuild your savings.

In between, other than the nicer/newer/fancier condo that you are living in, the next big difference is that you now have a MUCH MUCH LARGER LOAN TO REPAY.

It is quite a different story for the tycoons who actually own multiple properties and who can actually exit the investment when prices are high, wait for the correction crash to re-enter at more reasonable prices  ....

[3:07 pm, 27/10/2021] +Adrian: Ah noted. Okay sorry I didn't know PR and foreigners have to pay ABSD, I thought they just pay BSD like everyone else. Looks like there's alr additional measures for them to discourage investments.

Thanks for sharing🙏🏻

[3:07 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Yea that's a bit wierd. Why does gov create all these exemptions and differentiation in rules? That's why people get confused and obsessed by rules!

[3:07 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: The Government had chose to encourage the formation of family units and higher birth rates so that (hopefully) we do not need to import new citizens to sustain our ageing population.

[3:08 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Not sure PR can buy HDB, and if so there is already a ABSD I think

[3:08 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: Some form of "discomfort" is sometimes necessary to nudge people in the right direction

[3:08 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Higher property prices is effectively deflation of the SGD.

[3:09 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Foreigners pay a higher rate of absd than prs

[3:09 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: I mean increasing PR ABSD for HDBs

Or restrict them buying Newly MOP hdbs in all locations.

(The second will deffinatly show the impact)

[3:09 pm, 27/10/2021] +Desmond: Actually I think HEB should cater abit for singles wanting a premium places

[3:13 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: Yes Can 

The PR must Be Family nucleus and Must Have completed at least 3 years of PR before buying HDB

they are only allowed to Buy Resale HDB after 3 years of securing PR status.

[3:16 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: But One very Important loop hole i share here 

For Many PRs they own Other properties else where in the world. And yet they buy 

(As Per HDB rules A PR   (and Family buying) must not Own Any Property Any where else in the wolrd. If they own Must dispose that With in 6 months after buying HDB flat.

And I know Few PR people who bought hdbs has Houses else where... (I never served them.. as i am very afriad😃)

And they never Declare to HDB

also I have Not seen Any Article about HDB penalised this group of People.

[3:18 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: I won't say All PRs are same

But deffinatly some people taking advantage of The Rule.. as they feel HDB won't be able to know if they know property else where. So they don't declare... They just keep quiet..

All these years i am keep waiting to see any News about this.. 

As some times i lost clients when i say they must declare and Dispose their overseas property... it's ok for me.

But felt unfair ....

[3:22 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: Currently market already gone Crazy 

I am waiting for Cooling measures

But seems They won't Bring any😉

I am disappointed lol

[3:23 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: PR should only be able to buy HDB if buying with a Singaporean. Then risk of being caught cheating is much greater.

[3:24 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Personally, I sold my overseas property before buying HDB. It's true people did laugh at me for doing it...

[3:25 pm, 27/10/2021] +Suma pamu: Yes agree.

[3:25 pm, 27/10/2021] +Joseph: Yes.., the effect is highly inflationary, which erodes the value of your savings

There was time when asset price inflation (HDB) was necessary. That time was when SG was transitioning from 3rd world to 1st ... and where the majority of the population lowly uneducated and have an even lower understanding of and access to investments.

That was probably one of the main reasons for our Housing policy. Back then

If we look at ALL the drivers that led property prices to where they are today, the only one left is inflation. Given that SG (long term) inflation rates are at a stable low single digit annually ... we are unlikely to see Govt (housing) policy that will lead to the kind of price appreciate that our parents/grandparents "enjoyed".

This latest policy change is another step in that *changed) diredction.

Whereas LKY encouraged us then to study, get married early, apply for HDB, start family... and at retirement age, there will be enough to retire on (by cashing out on the HDB flat), LW has explicitly reminded us that we have to adjust our thinking on what our HDB/Property is for...that things are no longer what it used to be. 

We have been forewarned ,,,,,

[3:26 pm, 27/10/2021] +BL: Yes - how times have changed. The principles of yesterday are proving not to be so valid in today's global climate.

[6:47 pm, 27/10/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors, 

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰ 

Thank you very much for being a part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively. 

Goodnight!

Megan

[6:47 pm, 27/10/2021] +Adrian: Goodnight Megan!

[6:59 pm, 27/10/2021] +Smiley face: 27 October, 2021 

To: Distinguished Ministers, MIN-MND, and All Honorable Members 

“Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn’t anyone who doesn’t appreciate kindness and compassion.” 

- - Dalai Lama

Exemption & Exception (Craw Back Scheme):

Compassionate Grounds - - 

In the event of death to either or both, this case, a sole owner or joint owners of a HDB flat. The beneficiaries and /or the living & remaining owner can apply for exemption of the CRAW BACK amount. 

This affected dwelling can opt to rent, purchase resale flat in the open market or through HDB list of new/resale flats for sale. If it is a new flat application,  a minimum occupation period (MOP) of 5 years for non-prime location and prime location shall be 10 years. 

In the event of down sizing (or new flat), the transacted price of a resale (or new) purchase flat must be 20%  lower than the sold flat amount regardless of floor area, location and original purchase price of this flat. 

The new purchase cannot be a private developer property, landed or non-landed, new or resale. 

Any circumventing the above rules and or found to have cheated the authorities, this case known as MND, or HDB or MOF shall have the absolute legal power to claim an amount of UP TO 10 times of the discrepancy (understated price) on the purchase price of the new property or the sale price (overstated price) of the existing flat under the CRAW BACK scheme. 

Licensed housing agents will also be liable if proven guilty, licence revoke and co-share the compounded fines of up to 50% of the total court imposed penalty known as summon. 

Afterwords:

The inclusion of either exemption or exception clause is soly based on  comparti.  By allowing the deceased immediate household to be able to exit the present flat through sale (open mkt or sale to HDB) or transit into a smaller flat to mitigate future financial obligation or burden. 

News:

Subsidy clawback, 10-year MOP for new prime location HDB flats

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/subsidy-clawback-10-year-mop-for-new-prime-location-hdb-flats-to-keep-them

               - - END - -

[7:00 pm, 27/10/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today. 

Thank you very much for being a part of our Whatsapp chat and participating actively. 

Good night! 

Megan😊

=====

REACH 288 - What are your views on the new measures announced on 23 Oct to help Singapore move towards a calibrated reopening? Are you confident in Singapore’s “middle ground” approach to prevent deaths while still making progress? (SK)

25 Oct 2021 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[10:08 am, 25/10/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10.10am to 7pm today. ⏰

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Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

[10:11 am, 25/10/2021] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢 

Explaining the rationale behind the measures announced by the multi-ministry task force (MTF) on Sat (23 Oct), Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong said in a FB post that while Singapore cannot go into an indefinite lockdown and stand still, it also cannot "simply let go and let things rip”. PM Lee added, “We have to travel this road to get to living safely with Covid-19. We want to get there with as few casualties as possible.”

MTF co-chair Minister Lawrence Wong also elaborated on this "middle ground" approach. He stressed that we were trying not to veer to either extremes. This means keeping measures static, but also not opening up to the extent where the healthcare system is at risk of being overwhelmed.

💬 What are your views on the new measures announced on 23 Oct to help Singapore move towards a calibrated reopening? Are you confident in Singapore’s “middle ground” approach to prevent deaths while still making progress? 

On Sat (23 Oct), the MTF announced a host of measures that will help Singapore build strong foundations to enable the safe resumptions of activities. The measures include workplace vaccination measures from 1 Jan 2022, inclusion of Sinovac in the national vaccination programme, extension of home recovery to fully vaccinated pregnant patients and concessions for those who cannot be vaccinated. 

In a FB post, PM Lee also said that some measures can be eased if the weekly infection growth rate - that is, the ratio of community cases in the past week over the week before - drops below one and Singapore's hospital and intensive care unit situations remain stable. The current weekly infection growth rate is around 1.15. 

👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/pm-lee-singapore-cannot-lock-down-indefinitely-but-also-cannot-let-things-rip

👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/singapores-middle-path-approach-has-prevented-deaths-while-still-making-progress

👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/home-recovery-for-pregnant-covid-19-patients-who-are-less-than-26-weeks-into-their-term

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/sinovac-included-in-singapores-national-covid-19-vaccination-programme-3-doses

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/from-jan-1-only-those-fully-vaccinated-can-return-to-workplace-others-must-test

----

[10:28 am, 25/10/2021] +Stan: Please correct me if i am wrong, but there seems to be more deaths recorded now on a daily basis then during the first lockdown.

[10:34 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: You are correct.... but what exactly is the point you are trying to make?😅

[10:47 am, 25/10/2021] +Poh S. Lim: First lockdown, no Delta variant, second lockdown with Delta variant…🤨

[10:51 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: I am sorry, I still don't get the point either of you are making. What is the context and purpose of those statements?

[10:53 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: I can't tell where Stan's leading question is heading, and I am not sure if Poh is answering my question or Stan's  😂

[11:11 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: I think Poh is answering Stan's question

[11:12 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Adding on to Stan's question, perhaps he is asking if the death rate is trending down since we implemented the latest restrictions. If not, then why so?

[11:13 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: I have a question too ... why is everyone except Stan, answering a question that I posed to Stan? 😂

[11:15 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: What is the problem as long as there is meaningful conversation going on?

[11:20 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: I didn't say it is a problem .. Its a genuine, curious observation... hoping to also hear it from the horse's mouth. Really surprised to see so much speculation around it. 😂  And I am not sure I agree that the conversation so far had been meaningful.

[11:29 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: To answer the question of the day, i am unsure about the necessity of some of the new measures (particularly the 2-person dine in). The middle ground approach has yet to show clear sign of effectiveness in curbing the number of cases and alleviating the burden on our healthcare system

[11:33 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Especially accompanied with this news:

"ST had seen a note from EDB chairman Beh Swan Gin to forum delegates that groups of up to five may dine together at NEF venues and other designated restaurants in the city, and that guests can include non-NEF delegates." https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/delegates-at-bloomberg-forum-in-spore-can-dine-in-groups-of-5-at-specific-venues

[11:33 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: I think it is a positive step to emphasize the rationale for the constant calibration of measures eg. stabilisation of hospital/ICU situation.

Beyond that, I think its about time the G/MOH stop trying to "Nanny" the people.

The G/MOH has done what it can/should:

- Vax whoever wants to be vaxxed

- Test kits for whoever needs it

- Masks

- Educate whoever wants to learn

- Safety guidelines

- Medical facilities on standby

We all have to individually decide the level of risk that is appropriate for us. 

G/MOH need to let people decide for themselves. 

As for us, citizens, don’t break the law. Follow simple directives and exercise common sense, Most importantly, if/when the sh*t hits the fan, don’t blame anyone else if the outcome is not as we hoped.expected… because that is probably not going to help much.

[11:34 am, 25/10/2021] +BL: Bad: 2 person dine in, kids unable to play football outside. ⚽️  singing banned 🎶

[11:34 am, 25/10/2021] +BL: Good: mandatory vax for the office

[11:35 am, 25/10/2021] +BL: Yep, agree with most of this

[11:37 am, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: maybe allow dine-in to group of 5 if all 5 have went thru PET?

[11:38 am, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: or the whole f&b outlets have to go thru PET also

[11:38 am, 25/10/2021] +BL: UK has shown the disaster of abandoning reasonable precautions, so I'm glad we are not there. However,we can simplify the rules now.

[11:39 am, 25/10/2021] +BL: Vax yes can ; unvax no cannot. Lol

[11:40 am, 25/10/2021] +BL: Remove restrictions for restaurants dine in capacity, or at least give a maximum number per sqm so 8 people can sit together if the overall number of people in the space is the same.

[11:42 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: As a parent, I am more careful (kiasu?) with my own kids. Seriously, other people's children, not really my business to restrict/discipline....but if they are playing under my roof, then I expect them to follow boundaries that I set, which may be less stringent than what I prescribe for my own kids.

[11:42 am, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: I am surprised by these apparent double-standards:  300 delegates from 55 different countries.   I could see the justification if delegates could only dine with other delegates but, as said above, it says: 

"groups of up to five may dine together at NEF venues and other designated restaurants in the city, and that guests can include non-NEF delegates."

[11:43 am, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: So if I could get a NEF delegate to invite me and my kids to lunch I could actually eat at the same table as them .........

[11:46 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Appreciated your analogy. However, personally i feel that we have always maintained that foreigners have to respect our rules when they are in SG. This is how we dealt with offenders from more powerful countries such as Michael Fay vandalism case in the 1990s

[11:47 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: at NEF venues and other designated restaurants in the city

[11:47 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Using your analogy, it seems like we are with parents who are favouring other ppl's kids. It is obvious that the children will have their grievances about this

[11:48 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: I is with regards to breaking our laws while already here... the other, is about relaxing extraordinary restrictions within a "sandbox" for invitees

[11:51 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Seems like creating a special region where SG rules do not apply for foreigners. Other than embassy ground, i hope that we are not doing this in other parts of SG...

[11:52 am, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: ya lor, can we pay and join this gathering ?

[11:52 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: Heard of Embassies and diplomatic (vehicle) license plates before?

[11:52 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Yes, as mentioned in my previous comment

[11:53 am, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: The sooner you realise life is not always “fair”, the more time left for you to live happily 😂

[11:53 am, 25/10/2021] +Lim Suang: As much as i support the gov and understand where they are coming from. This exception really come at a wrong timing

[11:53 am, 25/10/2021] +james: it's called diplomatic immunity

[11:58 am, 25/10/2021] +REACH: ➡️ Pofma correction direction issued to Truth Warriors website over Covid-19 false claims 

https://str.sg/3cH9 

➡️ Tourism sector eyes long-term goal - recovery 

https://str.sg/3cVi

➡️ VTLs important milestone for S'pore, but no major recovery in inbound tourism expected yet

https://str.sg/3cVw

[0:01 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: I suspect we will all be allowed to do this by then

[0:04 pm, 25/10/2021] +Joseph: Yes.. like i said, the G/MOH should just stop Nannyinng everyone. Just calibrate and keep minimal restrictions with an eye on maintaining HOSPITAL/ICU capacity as much as possible. Deaths need to rise. Then people will PLEAD for restrictions and exercise caution even without G/MOH intervention.

[0:07 pm, 25/10/2021] +REACH: MOH releases two new daily charts to better reflect Covid-19 situation in S'pore

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/moh-releases-two-new-daily-charts-to-better-reflect-covid-19-situation-in-spore

[0:10 pm, 25/10/2021] +CQ: The non-NEF delegates are people like guest speakers, guest of honour etc etc... I guess you and your kids could be keynote speakers...

[0:25 pm, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: I don’t agree that the UK shown “the disaster of abandoning reasonable precautions”!!!  

In the first 12 months of Covid (March 2020 - February 2021) there were approx. 125,000 deaths in the UK.

On so-called “Freedom Day” (19 July 2021) when restrictions where removed, 87% of the UK population had been vaccinated.  

Between Freedom Day and now an additional 9,000 people have died (so 36,000 extrapolated over 12 months - a reduction of 71%).    The last 10 years stats show that about 25,000 a year die of flu and therefore at current rates deaths are up 44% compared to a normal year which is a lot but not as dramatic as 12 months ago.

Infections increased (unsurprisingly) but the number of cases has been static for the three months since Freedom Day.

People have moved on with their lives: they are going to work, seeing family, socialising, kids are at school, playing sport, hanging out with other kids, and everyone I’ve spoken to is much, much happier.   

That doesn’t sound like a “disaster” to me, that sounds like living with Covid.

[0:29 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: No idea where you got those numbers from.

[0:30 pm, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

[0:31 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: They are also talking about needing to introduce restrictions again and expect cases to spike to 100,000 over winter. 44% increase in death rate is huge. Whilst I do agree with many of the relaxed measures over there, some simple ones like wearing a mask on public transport have been removed.

[0:31 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: On so-called “Freedom Day” (19 July 2021) when restrictions where removed, 87% of the UK population had been vaccinated.

[0:32 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: Really 87% vaccinated by 19th July? What happened subsequently to bring this down to 67%

[0:33 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: "The last 10 years stats show that about 25,000 a year die of flu and therefore at current rates deaths are up 44% compared to a normal year which is a lot but not as dramatic as 12 months ago."

[0:34 pm, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: 87% was the figure that the government published which excluded children because at the time children were ineligible for the vax because it was licensed.

[0:34 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: If 2,000 usually die a month of flu and 3,000 a month are dying of covid, that's very bad and probably mostly unneccessary.

[0:35 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: So now they are at 67% should they rething their policies?

[0:35 pm, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: In fairness, I do completely agree on that - if my 3 year old can wear a mask why can't an adult wear one on the tube?!

[0:35 pm, 25/10/2021] +DC: The gov's middle approach has resulted in deaths both vaxed and unvaxed. 2nd, it has resulted in hospitalisations with almost 60% vaxed.

As rightly pointed out above, there are more deaths than before the middle approach is taken. The policy has therefore resulted in deaths. From the eyes of the law, the gov has a higher duty of care to its citizens? Has the current policies met this benchmark? 

We do not yet have a study on long covid cases. Given what USA and UK are experiencing, i do not expect these to be low. What will become of those who suffer long term consequences medically? Their insurance premiums, their livelihoods and their lives?

We mentioned that sg can be a case study for those opening up. But Gibraltar has higher vax rates than us and they have opened up to similar deaths and hosp? Did we study gibraltar before we made plans? If so, where have we failed? Why are we still short of beds and in fear of short of beds and medical care?

Going forward, how will the gov and its policies be accountable should more deaths occur and more of its citizens suffer from long covid?

[0:46 pm, 25/10/2021] +jimmy chew: Let's not forget to encourage the task force. I think they are doing a great job balancing on a tightrope.. walking into darkness and the unknown and adjusting well. I have no complaints. My freedom is not curtailed 🤣🤣🤣. I take social responsibility and if you have to die. You have too ❤️

[0:48 pm, 25/10/2021] +jimmy chew: I think it's good that they share the challenges and using foresight and insights why decisions are made. It's shows their desire for Singapore best 👍👍👍

[0:53 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: 👍

[0:54 pm, 25/10/2021] +jimmy chew: I am happy that they're open to feedback because they're not all Knowing. It challenging to hear and yet validate with data to make sure it's true. Deciphering who has an agenda and who really is calling real danger 🤣🤣🤣

[1:42 pm, 25/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. I think many people will be wondering, how come we have achieved one of the highest vaccination rate - 85% and the moment we open up, why do still clock 3,000 over infection per day, hundreds of serious illness in hospitals and double digit or high single digit death per day.

2. The main reason is, we have not achieve Superhuman Immunity state - even though with high double dose vaccination.We are in fact a "Covid-Naive" state.

Superhuman Immunity are acquired by 2 ways :-

a. Superhuman Immunity = Vaccinated Immunity + Booster Immunity

(Similar to Hepatitis B = 2 jab + 1 jab booster)

--- in other words, we have not completed the full course of vaccination (as perceived by the vaccine vendors - whereby 2 jab vaccination is only good for original covid but not the Delta covid.

--- Only 2 jabs + 3rd booster shot is considered commpleted full course vaccination.

Note:- This is experience by Israel - who prescribed 3rd booster to whole population and achieve a very positive result.

b. Alteratively, Superhuman Immunity = Vaccinated Immunity + Natural Infection Immunity

(where about over 3,000 people are going through infected by Delta and developing mild symptoms while minorities with co-morbidities develop more serious illnes and a few even death per day).

Serious illness where majority need oxygen support.

Some succumb to multi-organ complication and need ICU.

Note :- Countries in "Covid-Naive" state experiencing massive casualties in terms of hospitalisation and death before stabilising and enter into endemic are Denmark, Norway, Japan.

Where Countries experiencing massive casualties before stabilising but not yet entering into endemic are US, Italy, Spain, France and to a very little extent UK (who is still experiencing high casaulties).

3. Singapore currently are experiencing both a. and b. scenarios at the same time - indeed the "Middle Path".

a. We are actively pushing out the 3rd booster to 30 years and above. Hence those when the 6th months 2nd jab is up, we should quickly go for our 3rd booster shot - to acquire Superhuman Immunity.

b. Unfortunately, some 3,000 over people a day is experiencing natural infection - where more than 98% of these people experience mild symptoms, the remaining experiencing more serious illness unfortunately - especially those unvaccinated (which form a large proportion) and partially vaccinated as well as those fully vaccinated (but anti-bodies wane).

4. Hence how should we approach the current "Covid-Naive" state with our "Middle Path" approach and reducing our casualties without overwhelming our healthcare system?

a. Ramp up vaccination for those unvaccinated.

i. Mandating vaccination for those 113,000 unvaccinated workers to report to work or do mandatory test at their own cost.

ii. Reach out to those unvaccinated Elderly and other Adults about 70,000 - to persuade them to vaccinate.

b. Roll out 3rd jab booster for those who have received 2 jabs but has reached 6th month and above.

5. This is the only way for us to use "Middle Path" wisely - by helping people to acquire Superhuman Immunity through booster (like Israel) and reduce Natural Infection Immunity as hence incur lesser casaulties and reducing pressure on our healthcare services.

6. Maintaining restrictive measures is to buy time - so that we can push up the vaccination rate for those unvaccinated and roll out 3rd jab booster to those fully vaccinated where anti-bodies has waned.

7. Only when the whole population are vaccinated and acquire Superhuman Immunity - can we emerge from a "Covid-Naive" state into an Endemic State - following the example of Israel (through 3rd jab booster) or other Countries through (Natural Infection Immunity + Vaccinated Immenity ---- but at a very high price of massive casualties like Denmark, Norway, UAE, Saudi, Japan and to a lesser extent, US, Spain, Italy, France and to a lesser extent UK).

[2:55 pm, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/no-vax-no-hire-employers-can-also-terminate-unvaccinated-workers-as-last-resort

[2:58 pm, 25/10/2021] +Ken Loh: 😅

[2:59 pm, 25/10/2021] +CQ: Can I provide a feedback about the phrasing of the new workplace measures ah...? The various statements from MOM, minister, press have used words such as employees, staff, workers etc. As a result, there are some unvaccinated EMPLOYERS who think that these measures don't apply to them. I'm pretty sure that's not the intention of the MMTF. Can the terms be aligned and the relevant making the statements pay attention to the choice of words please....

[3:00 pm, 25/10/2021] +DC: Good. But don't we have to weigh against the risks? US FDA approve the boosters for 65 and above and high risk profile personnel above age of 18. UK JCVI is still holding out jabs for 12 to 17. So why are we "show hand" ALL IN?

[3:02 pm, 25/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Don't show hand like Israel - can.

But just see more casualties, more death and more lockdown.

[3:04 pm, 25/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/27/data-israel-covid-booster-shots-standard

The message from Israel is clear: Covid booster shots should be standard - like Hepatitis B - 2 shots + 1 booster shot.

Israel demonstrate to the World that its 3 vaccination shot have defeated the Delta wave.

[3:06 pm, 25/10/2021] +DC: This is like moving the goal post to suit the trajectory of your ball. The approval was given for a 2 dose vaccine with an efficacy of 50% and above. 4 mths away, your efficacy falls to 50% and you ask for a 3rd jab, and a 4th and a 5th? Where is the risk vs benefits weigh?

[3:08 pm, 25/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Don't shift goalposts can.

Just follow what the west are doing - more hospitalisation and more death.

[3:10 pm, 25/10/2021] +DC: Your mrna vax came from the west. That's following what the west is doing.

[3:10 pm, 25/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Not my mRNA.

[3:11 pm, 25/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Just see the action and the outcome.

Decide for yourself.

[4:10 pm, 25/10/2021] +Timothy Low: It appears to be 

 double standards by many people too.

[4:12 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: +1

[4:28 pm, 25/10/2021] +Fulgrim: +2

[4:29 pm, 25/10/2021] +Fulgrim: It's indefensible. The virus doesn't care if u are captain of industry or a menial labourer.  They shouldn't have made an exception yet expect us to keep to the 2 pple rule

[4:34 pm, 25/10/2021] +Fulgrim: Why don't they just make it compulsory? Why is so hard for them? They pass lws easily enuff

[4:35 pm, 25/10/2021] +Fulgrim: Laws

[4:39 pm, 25/10/2021] +Boon: +3, although to me, the matter is not that the delegates and non-delegates can dine together (up to 5), but why is the option of a pre-event test (PET) is now available to this event such that non-delegates can dine together in a group of 5 with delegates if they first passed a PET (presumably ART which can be self-admin, and not PCR). Why wasn't and why can't this PET option be offered to the struggling Sg F&B industry and to people in Sg first?   "...ST had seen a note from EDB chairman Beh Swan Gin to forum delegates that groups of up to five may dine together at NEF venues and other designated restaurants in the city, and that guests can include non-NEF delegates. The agencies said that anyone not attending the NEF but who wishes to have meals or meetings in venues or restaurants designated for the NEF must undergo a mandatory pre-event test and obtain a negative result beforehand..."

[4:41 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: Gan Kim Yong explains 5-person dining-in rule for Bloomberg forum, stresses event's importance for S'pore

https://www.straitstimes.com/business/gan-kim-yong-explains-5-person-dining-in-rule-for-bloomberg-forum-stresses-events

[4:43 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: +1

[4:44 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: At what cost to us is this importance!?

[4:46 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: More F&B may close down...

[4:46 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: Shops too

[4:46 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: And then no tourist

[4:46 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: Is a cycle....

[4:46 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: Much more to come!

[4:48 pm, 25/10/2021] +Fulgrim: The bigger cost is the loss of trust and belief in the impartially of the government.  U can't have diff sets for rules for diff classes of people. One set of rules for the elites and one set for everyone else

[4:48 pm, 25/10/2021] +Fulgrim: This is the much bigger Consequence

[4:48 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: Yes, this is just poor communication. The risk is that people interpret him as saying the F&Bs aren't important too, and our social lives aren't important either.

[4:49 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: So, let the F and B die a staged death!?

[4:49 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: FYI PET must be done by MOH appointed places. 

DIY not counted.

[4:50 pm, 25/10/2021] +Caleb: +1

[4:50 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: What exactly is the current trust of the people for the government they duly elected in trust!?

[4:50 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: I actually agree this is an important event and agree with allowing 5 people. I also think they should allow 5 people anyway, event or no event. In the end I suspect they will allow 5 people by late November, so it would have been better to say that is their expectation so they are proceeding on that basis.

[4:51 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: Our own people side lined for the bigger good!?

[4:52 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: Well, my view is that we shouldn't be sidelined, we should be allowed to dine with as many people as we like (subject to a maximum number allowed in the restaurant)

[4:53 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: Government it seems could not care less!?

[4:56 pm, 25/10/2021] +Boon: It would be interesting to see how many such forum will be held in Sg to maintain our status as a hub city; and for attendees to continue to dine in 5 while ordinary Sg people dine in 2. When I am writing this, it felt silly to quibble over 5 versus 2 pax to dine - but the quotes reads like it is because visitors need to network/optimise their time here, but people don't need to socialise for business or can make Sg a global hub, hence dine-at-2 only. "The Bloomberg New Economy Forum (NEF) is an important event that will help Singapore to maintain its status as a hub city, which in turn will support economic recovery and create good jobs for Singaporeans, said Trade and Industry Minister Gan Kim Yong..."

[4:56 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: That's a bit harsh - just not very good at communicating sometimes which can make anyone seem distant and arrogant.

[4:57 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: Yes - it's an odd view to express and comes across quite insensitive.

[4:57 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: To be fair, it's a positive piece about Singapore opening up to do business, which we need to protect our economy

[5:00 pm, 25/10/2021] +Boon: Agreed. It is good that Sg is opening up. But there are more policies coming up to handle a fast moving and nuanced situation, and a number of them are inconsistent - and these are making ordinary lives more "complex" and restrictive.

[5:02 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: Yes- too many nuances. Should just be Vax'd or not. If yes do what's sensible, if not then stay home.

[5:02 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: Yes exactly. The lack of music was so that people wouldn't stay longer at a bar. Since the bar closes at 10.30 then what difference does the music make??

[5:03 pm, 25/10/2021] +Boon: For example, if we take the comments in this report as the truth - eg, that restaurants cannot play music but gyms can, it begs the question what does music to do with Covid? https://www.tnp.sg/news/singapore/eateries-frustrated-dining-limit-seek-more-communication

[5:03 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: No live singing because the singer might spread covid? Really? Then just get them to do a test first.

[5:06 pm, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: I was told that if there is music in a bar or restaurant you have to talk louder in order to be heard and therefore (apparently) expel more air, spit etc from your mouth. 

I was told that the difference was because you don't talk in the gym and therefore music or not makes no difference.  

Apparently......

[5:07 pm, 25/10/2021] +Boon: 😅

[5:08 pm, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: I know ......

[5:14 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: Buy people breathe more deeply in the gym.... I mean it's a bit ridiculous to make this distinction. That is really from people who have nothing better to do....

[5:21 pm, 25/10/2021] +Boon: You are right. Thanks.

[5:45 pm, 25/10/2021] +Laurent: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sweden-suspends-moderna-shot-indefinitely-after-vaxxed-patients-develop-crippling-heart

[5:48 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: MTF seems not able to communicate effectively to the general population

[5:50 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: “young males under [age] 20 are up to six times more likely to develop myocarditis after contracting COVID-19 than those who have been vaccinated.”

[5:58 pm, 25/10/2021] +REACH: ➡️ Call 995 only for life-threatening situations, not Covid-19 infections: MOH, SCDF 

https://str.sg/3cCa

➡️ Over 200,000 seniors receive Covid-19 vaccine booster shots 

https://str.sg/3cCb

[6:39 pm, 25/10/2021] +N: I'm not confident of Singapore's approach. What is packaged as a "middle ground" narrative is more accurately termed as "calculated economic and social tradeoffs", with economic taking the pilot seat.

[6:39 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: Yup

[6:40 pm, 25/10/2021] +BL: True, however, how do we manage the perception world wide the SG is now a high risk country? We do have to curb the cases whilst also opening up.

[6:41 pm, 25/10/2021] +Rama: 🤷‍♂️

[6:45 pm, 25/10/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors, 

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰ 

Thank you very much for being a part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively. 

Goodnight!

Megan

[6:59 pm, 25/10/2021] +Smiley face: 25 October, 2021

To: Distinguished MTF, DMS and All Honorable Members 

"S'pore cannot lock down indefinitely but also cannot 'let things rip' in Covid-19 fight" 

- -  PM Lee

The Domestic Vaccinated Travelling Initiative (DVT) 

Fact:

Starting January 1st, 2022, only fully vaccinated workers are allowed access to the physical workplace. For the partial or unvaccinated workers will have to undergo daily (24 hrs validity) ART tests. Malls and F&B to continue the Vaccination differentiate initiative. 

DVT:

Key objectives -- to SURPRESS infection and NIMBLE the R ratio towards O.5 or less. 

Perhaps a 90 DAYS TEST to ONLY allow the fully vaccinated people access to public transport like MRT, Bus, Taxi and Private Hire Car.  Alternate way can be staggered travelling time into peak (7am to 9am, 5pm to 8pm) and off-peak with peak hours solely for the fully-vaccinated people. Fact is the EZ link card is a one card per identity system which can be linked and use for VALID entry of say a MRT gantry and / or boarding a public bus. 

The exceptions are for youth 18 years and below can continue to use these public utilities including APPROVED school buses for daily commute to school.  Parent and / or ward up to TWO persons are allow to accompany the younger children age 12 and below during these daily public commute to and fro schools, if needed. 

According to global and local medical experts, it is proven that the unvaccinated people are both vulnerable to C19 and at the same time carrying larger virus load that may increase the chance of infecting many people regardless of Vaccinate status. 

This proposed restriction will not materially affects all these public transport utilities simply there are 80% people fully vaccinated, this cases not much impact on the domestic transport economy, the corporate revenue or personal income. 

The DVT test is sequential and an extended idea from the current Air Travel protocol whereby only fully vaccinated people are allow to cross international borders. 

Second, this test can further SURPRESS the present R1. 15 ratio to perhaps at best towards R0.5. In singleton, to find ways to NIMBLE the R ratio to near zero, for this will ease many concerns, reduce complexities and minimise collateral damages too! 

It is a short time test designs to protect all vaccinated from C19 exposures from other sources of possible virus leak such as the unvaccinated. In simple maths, the larger the vaccinated populate is, it is paramount to protect these big numbers of people from unnecessary exposures and the ultimate larger numbers of infected C19. 

In good intent and positive spirit of protecting the population at large, the DVT perhaps is worth trying as Singapore continues to open up and closing in towards an endemic. 

Afterwords:

A country REPUTATION of being clean and covid safe will be the keys in the success of its implementation of cross border travel initiatives that will consequentially be a muscular driver of economic activities, trade progressions & integrations and differentiates from other nations. Being unique, be different and avoiding a habit of "monkey see, monkey do" approach: importantly to seek every small advantage, that's simply an "unfair advantage" over others! 

A brave new world, afterall, 99% of all visitors and locals are potentially asymptomatics? Let's open our minds, lightened our hearts and embrace a reset - a new norm of FUN, FREE & EASY experience for ourselves and our visitors!  As the old saying goes " the rest is history...! "

News:

S'pore cannot lock down indefinitely but also cannot 'let things rip' in Covid-19 fight: PM Lee

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/pm-lee-singapore-cannot-lock-down-indefinitely-but-also-cannot-let-things-rip

VTLs important milestone for S'pore, but no major recovery in inbound tourism expected yet

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/vtls-important-milestone-for-spore-but-no-major-recovery-in-inbound-tourism

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/no-vax-no-hire-employers-can-also-terminate-unvaccinated-workers-as-last-resort

              - - END - -

[7:00 pm, 25/10/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today. 

Thank you very much for being a part of our Whatsapp chat and participating actively. 

Good night! 

Megan😊

=====

REACH 287 - What do you think of the new measures announced today (23 Oct) to help Singapore move toward a calibrated reopening, in particular the inclusion of Sinovac under the national vaccination programme, changes to vaccine-differentiated measures, and selective resumption of community activities? (SK)

23 Oct 2021 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[5:20 pm, 23/10/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from now to 8pm today. ⏰

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Megan 😊

[5:22 pm, 23/10/2021] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢 

New measures were announced today (23 Oct) by the multi-ministry task force on Covid-19, to help Singapore live with the COVID-19 pandemic

💬 What do you think of the new measures announced today (23 Oct) to help Singapore move toward a calibrated reopening, in particular the inclusion of Sinovac under the national vaccination programme, changes to vaccine-differentiated measures, and selective resumption of community activities? 

The new measures announced by the Multi-Ministry Taskforce tackling the Covid-19 pandemic in Singapore are:

1. Sinovac-CoronaVac Covid-19 vaccine to be included in the National Vaccination Programme

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/sinovac-included-in-national-vaccination-programme-for-those-18-and-above-3-doses

The Sinovac Covid-19 vaccine will be included in the national vaccination programme to cater to those unable or unwilling to be vaccinated with mRNA vaccines. It will be administered for free and come under the Vaccine Injury Financial Assistance Programme (VIFAP). 

2. Concessions for those medically ineligible for vaccination

MOH will make special concessions to exempt some people from vaccination-differentiated measures and allow them to enter places such as malls and hawker centres, if they are certified to be medically ineligible for the national vaccination programme. 

3. Only fully vaccinated employees can return to workplaces from next year

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/from-jan-1-only-those-fully-vaccinated-can-return-to-workplace-others-must-test

From 1 Jan next year, all workers who return to the office have to be fully vaccinated or recovered from Covid-19 in the past 270 days. This expansion of vaccination-differentiated measures means that unvaccinated people will need to test negative for Covid-19 before they can return to the workplace, and pay for the costs of these tests.

4. Calibrated easing of community measures

Singapore will ease some COVID-19 measures such as allowing household members to dine-in together if the weekly infection rate (the ratio of community cases in the past week over the week before) drops below 1. The People's Association will also organise activities for fully vaccinated seniors according to prevailing safe management measures, with more details to come at a later date.

5. Pregnant Covid-19 patients can recover at home

The Home Recovery Programme will be extended to pregnant Covid-19 patients who are fully vaccinated, under 35 years old, less than 26 weeks pregnant, and clinically assessed at selected hospitals to be suitable for home recovery.

6. Updates to border measures

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/spore-to-open-to-travellers-from-south-asia-relaxes-measures-for-travellers-from

MOH said it will facilitate the entry of more fully vaccinated domestic workers, to meet urgent domestic and caregiving needs of local households, while regulating the numbers carefully. 

All travellers with a 14-day travel history to Bangladesh, India, Myanmar, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka will also be allowed to enter or transit through Singapore.

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/living-with-covid-19-new-domestic-border-measures-announced-on-oct-23

-----

[5:30 pm, 23/10/2021] +John Cheong: Please relax rules to allow Household members to dine out together now. It's quite pointless keeping this measure.

[5:31 pm, 23/10/2021] +Caleb: Shld allow people to take booster with SINOVAC

[5:34 pm, 23/10/2021] +Wilson Leong: :)

[5:35 pm, 23/10/2021] +Wilson Leong: Not easy to get appointment for Sinovac.

[5:35 pm, 23/10/2021] +linyuxiang: booster shots for students is smth that shld be considered if schools are gonna continue having face 2 face lessons, now parents are very worried for children on their well being, plus having the fear of bringing back the virus. As a student, it is frustrating to do HBL which has been the case during heightened alert and now that I am back to F2F lessons, i would prefer letting it stay this way

[5:36 pm, 23/10/2021] +Rama: What is the conclusion report for sinovac to be included!? Hope no political pressure!?

[5:38 pm, 23/10/2021] +Angelica: I think it’s a good move by the government to allow flexibility (concessions for those medically ineligible, and possibly family dine in tgt), while making it stricter for those who are very stubborn but eligible.

[5:38 pm, 23/10/2021] +Caleb: And the upcoming Novavax too. 

Allow people who are taking their booster to be able to choose freely

[5:49 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Written and posted in 21 Oct 2021 (Thu).

[5:49 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Part 1 - Raging Delta waves - 2 extreme views on how to tackle it

1. 2 important issues are at stake for Singapore ---- at this very difficult time for us as Delta wave spike - taking many casaulties - in terms of infectiion number, hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICU and death ---- a fearsome public health crisis.

2. The 2 issues are :-

a. Lives

b. Livelihood

3. Government is our important partner and trusted custodian of Singaporeans and Singapore residents' lives and livelihood. Hence our Government will have to make a delicate and fine balance between the 2 - to protect our lives and keeping our livelihood afloat.

4. Death from covid are preventable if people take vaccination as advise and for those where anti-bodies that have wane - get a booster shot - so that we can protect ourselves from succumbing to covid (as demonstrated by Israel population wide booster shot).

5. For our Livelihood - we have been able to stay afloat by calibrated reopening of the Economy - to let business and jobs to operate. Moderate amount of social interaction is allow for majority of vaccinated people with 2 dine-in,and visiting of malls, conduct events etc.

6. But currently, there are 2 very vocal extreme views both taking an uncompromising opposing stand in which our Government will have to balance:- 

a. One extreme view is, since the raging 4 figures high infection numbers, hundreds in hospitals, oxygen and ICUs as well as the high single digits and double digits death should justify a CB lockdown until we subdue the current Delta wave. Why Government did not fall back in using CB to curb the current Delta wave and save lives.

b. Another vocal extreme view, is that since we cannot control the Delta wave, majority are vaccinated and we want to move into endemic - why control, just let it run wild.

Both extreme views are highly undesirable.

a. The 1st lockdown view - will kill our Economy, our business, our jobs - and the Economic cost is far too high for us to stomach - as all our wealth and reserves will go down the drain in no time.

Because Singapore has a very small domestic Economy - our business cannot survive by just selling to our very small poppulation of 5.45 million.

With city small land space, we don't have our own domestic air flight - and our airlines need to fly all over the World.

We depends on the World trade to survive and thrive.

Our financial reserves will be used up in no time - if we do a complete lockdown from time to time.

Morevover even if we can stop the current Delta wave or turn it into zero covid through draconian lockdown, the moment we re-open, Delta wave will again surge - and we are not solving the root cause of the Delta wave correctly.

b. The reckless let it go view - will trigger Delta to spread like wildfire to infect the whole population - and many vulnerables, unvaccinated adults, elderly and childrn will take a heavy toll.

As shown in the current statistics hitting our healthcare, even controlled reopening of our Economy - lead to tremendous pressure as sustain by our hospitals in terms of overwhelm demand in beds, doctors, nurses and our medical staff cause by Delta covid --- and will overwhelm our hospital services - causing our healthcare services to paralyse - resulting in not only many covid death, but also other medical conditions death due to inability to get treatment.

Our medical staff will also succumb to infection or through overwork - and the whole Country will be devoid of medical care that we take so many years to establish into a World class healthcare system.

-----

[5:50 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Part 2 - What is our best strategy to tackle the current raging Delta waves? - At Public Safety Front

1. So what will be our best strategy to tackle the current Delta wave that is hitting us - causing daily high hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICU and death?

a. Our Government adopt the "Middle Path" approach - a fine balance to safeguard both the public lives and livelihood - and hold this fine balance until this Delta wave do a downward trajectory from 4 figures infection number - to a low infection number, low and manageable hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICUs and mininmal or zero death.

This is because no rocket can shoot up and up without coming down - as its fuel one day will get burn out. Similarly, no virus pandemic will keep raging infinitely and one day it will burn itself out.

This must be a pre-requisite condition - whereby the current Delta wave reach its peak, do a downward slide and stabilise at a low base and plateau - before hospitals can resume normalcy and patients with other medical conditions can get treatment like the pre-pandemic state.

It cannot be hospitals only treat covid predominantly - while patients with other medical conditions can't get treatment because we can't control the onslaught of the Delta wave.

b.Reach out vaccination efforts - to get to those Adults and Elderly who have not yet vaccinated to vaccinate.

Our statistics reveal the overwhelming covid patients that hog the hospitals, oxygen support, ICU and death - are mainly from the unvaccinated Adults and Elderly.

As long as we successfully get the unvaccinated to get their vaccination - we will have cut down the hospitalisation number by half and more than 70% death daily.

c. Ramp up the 3rd jab booster to the population where anti-bodies have wane after 6 months.

Our statistics have shown that most breakthrough vaccinated death (about 25% to 30% death) - are predominantly Elderly where anti-bodies have wane and who also suffer from co-morbidities.

These group can be protected by the 3rd booster shot as shown by Israel 3rd booster experience that are roll out to their populations.

d. Hence the current restrictive measures is to buy-time for us to do the above - in our bid to curb the current Delta wave - until a protracted downward trajectory of damage caused by the Delta wave reveal itself.

e. Only if we do as such, we can achieve a soft landing - instead of witnessing overwhelm hospitals and many death - a hard landing as seen in many countries.

-----

[5:50 pm, 23/10/2021] +Anthony: Siinovac becoming our latest vaccination Shot showing that .

That's no perfect Vaccine in the world by now

But hopefully no more Sub-Standard Vaccine from now😉😉

[5:50 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

-----

Part 3 - What is our best strategy to tackle the current raging Delta waves? - At Economy Front

1. We can adjust this "Middle Path" approach - by sliding the restriction measures down or up as our covid situation turn better or worse ---- until the high infection number, hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICU and death - slides to a low manageable number, stabilise and plateau.

c. Have we done too badly using this "Middle Path" approach?

i. Economy - our GDP growth - is projected to grow by about 6% - one of the highest in ASEAN - even though it come from a low base. But it is still respectable and even with this growth rate, we will beat other powerful Asia Pacific Countries (other than ASEAN).

Though some retailers and F&B will still struggle - due to restricting the vaccinated differentiated measures in visiting malls and dine-in of 2.

But the Government is willing to review the dine-in of 2 by 2 weeks time - contingent to the covid situation improving after 2 weeks time.

Air travel, tourism, hospitality hotel services - are poised to bounce back - as Vaccinated Travel Lane go into action with few overseas Countries and seeing overseas travellers landing in Changi Airport.

Our sea port is taking over the role of diverting stuck sea cargoes in China and US ports into our seaports to handle the disrupted global supply chain.

Many ultra-rich are parking their funds into our Finance Hub to set up home-office and buying prime residential and office properties.

Though we have not return to full functional Economic activities as per pre-pandemic, our Economy are indeed firing at most if not all cylinders.

ii. However, we can open our Economy further by allowing more vaccinated dine-in of 5 if we see Delta wave take a turn for the better if it show a protracted downward trajectory in infection number, hospital number, oxygen support number, ICU number and death in 2 weeks time.

iii. Else we will still hold one to our current restrictive measures until and unless the above condition sets in (ie. Delta wave burn itself out).

iv. Please note, the Government did not slide backwards to implement more restrictive measures even though all the hospital vital numbers go into an unchartered water --- that is the Government is allowing Economy to chug along despite the exorbitant number ----- this is the answer to the "free for all" extreme view.

v. The Government is also safeguarding lives - by extending the current restrictive measures without loosening any of them - as the hospital vital number linger at a "eye popping figure" - while ramping up vaccination - coaxing unvaccinated to vaccinate and rolling out booster to those eligible.

vi. I personally feel that the Government extending the restrictive measures to another month --- is the right balance.

Also notice in Channel 8 news (21Oct2021)(6.30pm) taking a straw poll - reveals that majority also support the current Government measures for extending to another month.

====

[5:53 pm, 23/10/2021] +Joseph: All it shows is that there are people who refuse mRNA and the G/MOH would rather they have some (non-mRNA), than none at all.

[5:57 pm, 23/10/2021] +Anthony: I always believe the more group of  people going for gathering  

Another group of elderly are going to soon ,

Maybe is time to reflect our younger ones how do we keep older generation to be safe

Death rate was too huge not to annoyed

[6:02 pm, 23/10/2021] +DC: They should have done so a long time ago. Even SAGE has studied and given approval, why wait so long?

[6:04 pm, 23/10/2021] +DC: Now the main issue is the boosters. Hopefully we won't be needing boosters after boosters as the jabs wane with new mutations. Even Dr Leong Hoe Nam pointed out this is not the eay to go.

[6:04 pm, 23/10/2021] +DC: I think we should recognise that we need a broad spectrum strategy which includes vaccines but NOT fully reliant on just vaccines.

[6:12 pm, 23/10/2021] +Lim Suang: I feel that two measures should have been implemented instead:

1. Mandatory vaccination

2. Subsidized test kits for medically ineligible unvaccinated SG residents

One question that I hope could be answered: Why do we have such high number of the infected cases compared to other countries, despite the high vaccination rate and restriction measures?

[6:20 pm, 23/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Furthermore, i think that the current way of reporting of vaccinated vs unvaccinated serious cases would be unsustainable in the long run. With increasing vaccination rate due to all the gov intiatives targeting the unvaccinated, we will eventually see the number of seriously ill vaccinated patients exceeding the unvaccinated patients purely due to larger statistical base. This will create confusion among the population soon

[6:20 pm, 23/10/2021] +Joseph: I think what Dr Leong said was that the vaccine gives us the basic defense against the virus. We eventually need to encounter the virus to trigger our own T-cell response. The risk of doing this without the B-cells (from vaccines) protection is high.

A certain percentage of the population (including vaxxed people) will fall seriously i’ll and require oxygen supplement/ICU support. 

That’s why when the infection numbers rise too quickly, we need a “break” so that our medical facilities don’t get overwhelmed. We ALL eventually need to (and will) encounter the virus to gain full/effective immunity. Just make sure when the time comes, there is ICU beds in case needed.

[6:21 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/27/data-israel-covid-booster-shots-standar

The message from Israel is clear: Covid booster shots should be standard - like Hepatitis B - 2 shots + 1 booster shot.

Israel demonstrate to the World that its 3 vaccination shot have defeated the Delta wave.

[6:22 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://sg.yahoo.com/news/analysis-vaccinated-singapore-shows-zero-072351859.html                                    

Vaccinated Singapore shows zero-Covid countries cost of re-opening (from covid-naive to endemic).

[6:23 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Fighting the covid, is like fighting a guerilla warfare.

2. It is constantly changing its tactics to evade our defence system to gain a tactical advantage.

3. As it changes its tactics, human needs to adjust our defence to regain our advantage.

4. This is never static and change is constant.

5. Fighting a guerilla war is more than a superior warfare and tactics.

6. We are also fighting at the psychological level.

7. Whoever has the superior mental strength and lasting stamina and endurance will eventually win the ever changing guerilla warfare.

8. The winner will always be beholden to the side that possess selflessness, compassion and wits.

9. As of now, covid rage along because they work in a collective selflessly, mutually helping themselves and sacrificing themselves so that the fittest virus survive and they try to outwit the human defence system time and again.

10. Human on the other hand are less then cooperative, doubting what the government and medical scientists are doing, not vaccinating, disrupting vaccination, each and everyone for its own interest. Thus human defence system is always outrun by the covid.

11. Eventually, human can prevail like all virus pandemic - because selflessness, compassion and wisdom will eventually emerge for the better and outwit the covid pandemic.

12. Thus we must have stamina, preserverence, endurance, patience, have faith with our medical scientists, our government and human must cooperate - before we will eventually defeat the covid pandemic.

[6:23 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

13. Ultimately, it is the smartest and the fittest that will survive.

14. Human must eventually be the smartest and fittest to survive.

[6:33 pm, 23/10/2021] +Lim Suang: Agree with the middle ground approach, but we really have to be careful with the frequency and timing of the changes. If new measures are constantly being introduced at short notice, there is a high chance of our population getting fatigued and become less compliant to the new measures

[6:37 pm, 23/10/2021] +CQ: https://mothership.sg/2021/10/singapore-ease-measures-covid-19-weekly-infection-rate/?fbclid=IwAR3NH77QyXaSczImtOqMXAUwczLEydMBxYKcmkjT-jJsxbUL_yDO2esXh_Q

"1. Allowing team sports to resume. For example, "a group of five people can play football with another group of five people or any other contact sports".

2. Resumption of more activities in schools and institutions of higher learning.

3. Allowing family members from the same household to dine together in F&B establishments, up to a group of five persons."

I spotted this part, look at points 1 and 3. How is the risk of 10 people playing contact sports equivalent to family members dining together? is it inaccurate reporting, or is there something a bit off with the rationale here....?

[6:37 pm, 23/10/2021] +Caleb: https://youtu.be/P3QKRJ0ZdFs

[6:38 pm, 23/10/2021] +DC: Kindly consider and include sinovac and sinopharm for the 12 to 17 yrs children. Understand china has done so for 91% of the children in this age group. If there are not sufficient data, it's time to engage chinese gov.

[7:06 pm, 23/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://sg.style.yahoo.com/us-set-vaccinate-kids-aged-115531978.html

US set to vaccinate kids aged 5-11 against Covid from next month: White House.

[7:20 pm, 23/10/2021] +BL: Agreed, or at least raise to 3 so people don't have to sit on their own.

[7:20 pm, 23/10/2021] +BL: Agreed

[7:21 pm, 23/10/2021] +BL: Agreed

[7:22 pm, 23/10/2021] +BL: Also agree, or at least post the context (ie  % or vax or not that are infected.)

[7:23 pm, 23/10/2021] +BL: If there are 3,500 cases a day, the chance of infection is 1 in 1800 which is equivalent to taking nearly 3 years on average to get infected. Just wanted to give some perspective. You have very little chance of catching it, but please take precautions.

[7:24 pm, 23/10/2021] +BL: Sorry, 1 in 1800 is about 5 years.

[7:26 pm, 23/10/2021] +BL: Great,  hope to see it here before 2022

[7:31 pm, 23/10/2021] +DC: I think on the contrary, everyone will have to catch covid just like flu. There is no herd immunity as originally conceived as the vax doesn't prevent spread. You do need to look out for a prolonged period of c19 transmissions and not think that the vax will get you out with 1 or 2 waves.

It is going to be a war of attrition. You are not going to win it giving disbursements of a few hundred dollars. It's not going to work. You need a hoslitic plan not one to plugs the hole everytime we go into a semi lockdown. 

And, i would advocate for gov to look for alternate treatments than the $700 per course treatment. Try opening up to TCM treatment for those we are agreeable to TCM treatment. Don't put all eggs into one basket. You are going to burn a very big hole even if 2% of your population needs the $700 course.

[7:43 pm, 23/10/2021] +DC: We also need some good old 50s 60s contingency planning. We need to have plans in place if this virus mutates to become more deadly instead of more transmissible, especially when every country is simultaneously opening up.

[7:45 pm, 23/10/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan

[7:52 pm, 23/10/2021] +65 BL: Contingency would be good. If they have that, which I assume they do, it should be communicated. It does feel we have been a bit reactive and unprepared, hence the changes and tweaks to the restrictions over the last6 months.

[7:59 pm, 23/10/2021] +Smiley face: 23 October, 2021

To: Distinguished Ministers and All Honorable Members 

“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” 

- - Mark Twain

YOLO (You Only Live Once):

What if you contracted C19? What if you never wakes up tomorrow? Is it highly risky for seniors to physically connect and interact? Will I be depressed or demented? Perhaps these what ifs each has a spectrum of questions, arguments and answers! 

In the minds of seniors, let's take a moment of silence, reflect and rethink what's the true meaning of life and its existence. Let our seniors live their GOLDEN YEARS AND PRECIOUS MOMENTS with their friends, relatives and love ones. Please do not let this C19 robs away their time to enjoy, to travel and to mingle. Just carry on NOT living in fear but use the BEST of time.  To Covid, yes, we all understand you are around too! BEAT IT! 

As for many of us, we will become seniors one day, for that, perhaps that day will arrive! A common saying "is just a matter of time...that's life! " 

" a CLEAR mind is like the image of a full moon shines upon the surface of a CALM lake... "

- - Ian T               

    - - to be continued - -

[8:00 pm, 23/10/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

=====

 [8:18 pm, 21/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: Part 1 - Raging Delta waves - 2 extreme views on how to tackle it

1. 2 important issues are at stake for Singapore ---- at this very difficult time for us as Delta wave spike - taking many casaulties - in terms of infectiion number, hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICU and death ---- a fearsome public health crisis.

2. The 2 issues are :-

a. Lives

b. Livelihood

3. Government is our important partner and trusted custodian of Singaporeans and Singapore residents' lives and livelihood. Hence our Government will have to make a delicate and fine balance between the 2 - to protect our lives and keeping our livelihood afloat.

4. Death from covid are preventable if people take vaccination as advise and for those where anti-bodies that have wane - get a booster shot - so that we can protect ourselves from succumbing to covid (as demonstrated by Israel population wide booster shot).

5. For our Livelihood - we have been able to stay afloat by calibrated reopening of the Economy - to let business and jobs to operate. Moderate amount of social interaction is allow for majority of vaccinated people with 2 dine-in,and visiting of malls, conduct events etc.

6. But currently, there are 2 very vocal extreme views both taking an uncompromising opposing stand in which our Government will have to balance:- 

a. One extreme view is, since the raging 4 figures high infection numbers, hundreds in hospitals, oxygen and ICUs as well as the high single digits and double digits death should justify a CB lockdown until we subdue the current Delta wave. Why Government did not fall back in using CB to curb the current Delta wave and save lives.

b. Another vocal extreme view, is that since we cannot control the Delta wave, majority are vaccinated and we want to move into endemic - why control, just let it run wild.

Both extreme views are highly undesirable.

a. The 1st lockdown view - will kill our Economy, our business, our jobs - and the Economic cost is far too high for us to stomach - as all our wealth and reserves will go down the drain in no time.

Because Singapore has a very small domestic Economy - our business cannot survive by just selling to our very small poppulation of 5.45 million.

With city small land space, we don't have our own domestic air flight - and our airlines need to fly all over the World.

We depends on the World trade to survive and thrive.

Our financial reserves will be used up in no time - if we do a complete lockdown from time to time.

Morevover even if we can stop the current Delta wave or turn it into zero covid through draconian lockdown, the moment we re-open, Delta wave will again surge - and we are not solving the root cause of the Delta wave correctly.

b. The reckless let it go view - will trigger Delta to spread like wildfire to infect the whole population - and many vulnerables, unvaccinated adults, elderly and childrn will take a heavy toll.

As shown in the current statistics hitting our healthcare, even controlled reopening of our Economy - lead to tremendous pressure as sustain by our hospitals in terms of overwhelm demand in beds, doctors, nurses and our medical staff cause by Delta covid --- and will overwhelm our hospital services - causing our healthcare services to paralyse - resulting in not only many covid death, but also other medical conditions death due to inability to get treatment.

Our medical staff will also succumb to infection or through overwork - and the whole Country will be devoid of medical care that we take so many years to establish into a World class healthcare system.

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[10:07 pm, 21/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: Part 2 - What is our best strategy to tackle the current raging Delta waves? - At Public Safety Front

1. So what will be our best strategy to tackle the current Delta wave that is hitting us - causing daily high hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICU and death?

a. Our Government adopt the "Middle Path" approach - a fine balance to safeguard both the public lives and livelihood - and hold this fine balance until this Delta wave do a downward trajectory from 4 figures infection number - to a low infection number, low and manageable hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICUs and mininmal or zero death.

This is because no rocket can shoot up and up without coming down - as its fuel one day will get burn out. Similarly, no virus pandemic will keep raging infinitely and one day it will burn itself out.

This must be a pre-requisite condition - whereby the current Delta wave reach its peak, do a downward slide and stabilise at a low base and plateau - before hospitals can resume normalcy and patients with other medical conditions can get treatment like the pre-pandemic state.

It cannot be hospitals only treat covid predominantly - while patients with other medical conditions can't get treatment because we can't control the onslaught of the Delta wave.

b.Reach out vaccination efforts - to get to those Adults and Elderly who have not yet vaccinated to vaccinate.

Our statistics reveal the overwhelming covid patients that hog the hospitals, oxygen support, ICU and death - are mainly from the unvaccinated Adults and Elderly.

As long as we successfully get the unvaccinated to get their vaccination - we will have cut down the hospitalisation number by half and more than 70% death daily.

c. Ramp up the 3rd jab booster to the population where anti-bodies have wane after 6 months.

Our statistics have shown that most breakthrough vaccinated death (about 25% to 30% death) - are predominantly Elderly where anti-bodies have wane and who also suffer from co-morbidities.

These group can be protected by the 3rd booster shot as shown by Israel 3rd booster experience that are roll out to their populations.

d. Hence the current restrictive measures is to buy-time for us to do the above - in our bid to curb the current Delta wave - until a protracted downward trajectory of damage caused by the Delta wave reveal itself.

e. Only if we do as such, we can achieve a soft landing - instead of witnessing overwhelm hospitals and many death - a hard landing as seen in many countries.

-----

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Part 3 - What is our best strategy to tackle the current raging Delta waves? - At Economy Front

1. We can adjust this "Middle Path" approach - by sliding the restriction measures down or up as our covid situation turn better or worse ---- until the high infection number, hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICU and death - slides to a low manageable number, stabilise and plateau.

c. Have we done too badly using this "Middle Path" approach?

i. Economy - our GDP growth - is projected to grow by about 6% - one of the highest in ASEAN - even though it come from a low base. But it is still respectable and even with this growth rate, we will beat other powerful Asia Pacific Countries (other than ASEAN).

Though some retailers and F&B will still struggle - due to restricting the vaccinated differentiated measures in visiting malls and dine-in of 2.

But the Government is willing to review the dine-in of 2 by 2 weeks time - contingent to the covid situation improving after 2 weeks time.

Air travel, tourism, hospitality hotel services - are poised to bounce back - as Vaccinated Travel Lane go into action with few overseas Countries and seeing overseas travellers landing in Changi Airport.

Our sea port is taking over the role of diverting stuck sea cargoes in China and US ports into our seaports to handle the disrupted global supply chain.

Many ultra-rich are parking their funds into our Finance Hub to set up home-office and buying prime residential and office properties.

Though we have not return to full functional Economic activities as per pre-pandemic, our Economy are indeed firing at most if not all cylinders.

ii. However, we can open our Economy further by allowing more vaccinated dine-in of 5 if we see Delta wave take a turn for the better if it show a protracted downward trajectory in infection number, hospital number, oxygen support number, ICU number and death in 2 weeks time.

iii. Else we will still hold one to our current restrictive measures until and unless the above condition sets in (ie. Delta wave burn itself out).

iv. Please note, the Government did not slide backwards to implement more restrictive measures even though all the hospital vital numbers go into an unchartered water --- that is the Government is allowing Economy to chug along despite the exorbitant number ----- this is the answer to the "free for all" extreme view.

v. The Government is also safeguarding lives - by extending the current restrictive measures without loosening any of them - as the hospital vital number linger at a "eye popping figure" - while ramping up vaccination - coaxing unvaccinated to vaccinate and rolling out booster to those eligible.

vi. I personally feel that the Government extending the restrictive measures to another month --- is the right balance.

Also notice in Channel 8 news (21Oct2021)(6.30pm) taking a straw poll - reveals that majority also support the current Government measures for extending to another month.

====

[0:08 pm, 22/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 1. Fighting the covid, is like fighting a guerilla warfare.

2. It is constantly changing its tactics to evade our defence system to gain a tactical advantage.

3. As it changes its tactics, human needs to adjust our defence to regain our advantage.

4. This is never static and change is constant.

5. Fighting a guerilla war is more than a superior warfare and tactics.

6. We are also fighting at the psychological level.

7. Whoever has the superior mental strength and lasting stamina and endurance will eventually win the ever changing guerilla warfare.

8. The winner will always be beholden to the side that possess selflessness, compassion and wits.

9. As of now, covid rage along because they work in a collective selflessly, mutually helping themselves and sacrificing themselves so that the fittest virus survive and they try to outwit the human defence system time and again.

10. Human on the other hand are less then cooperative, doubting what the government and medical scientists are doing, not vaccinating, disrupting vaccination, each and everyone for its own interest. Thus human defence system is always outrun by the covid.

11. Eventually, human can prevail like all virus pandemic - because selflessness, compassion and wisdom will eventually emerge for the better and outwit the covid pandemic.

12. Thus we must have stamina, preserverence, endurance, patience, have faith with our medical scientists, our government and human must cooperate - before we will eventually defeat the covid pandemic.

[0:27 pm, 22/10/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 13. Ultimately, it is the smartest and the fittest that will survive.

14. Human must eventually be the smartest and fittest to survive.