REACH 162 - Maid vs CAG son court case (SK)
05 Nov 2020 (11am - 7pm)
REACH
[11:13 am, 05/11/2020] +: ๐ข Topic ๐ข
Law and Home Affairs Minister K. Shanmugam yesterday (4 Nov) delivered a ministerial statement on the case involving Ms Parti Liyani. He gave a detailed account of the series of events in the case, which sparked debate about the fairness of the justice system.
What are your views on the Ministerial Statement with regards to the Parti Liyani case?
There were good grounds for the police and Attorney-General’s Chambers to take action against Parti Liyani and no undue pressure was placed on them to do so, but aspects of the case could have been handled better, said Law and Home Affairs Minister K Shanmugam in a ministerial statement.
He also noted that the Government is considering creating a public defender’s office to to provide legal help for those facing criminal charges in Singapore but are unable to engage their own lawyer.
The details and feasibility of such an office will be further studied by the Government together with the Law Society and Criminal Bar, he said, adding that the Ministry of Law is in favour of it.
๐https://www.gov.sg/article/ministerial-statement-review-case-of-parti-liyani-v-public-prosecutor-2020
๐https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/parliament-criminal-justice-system-works-and-vital-to-uphold-its-integrity-says
๐https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/govt-looking-into-setting-up-unit-to-defend-lower-income-accused-of-crime
+ changed this group's settings to allow all participants to send messages to this group.
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[11:15 am, 05/11/2020] +: Ah yes G2 has done it again! Discussing something that isn't the topic and it becomes the topic the next day!
On a personal note, I am very confused by this case and would appreciate enlightenment regarding it
[11:18 am, 05/11/2020] +: ya, the statement is in hours
[11:19 am, 05/11/2020] +: not time to watch yet
[11:19 am, 05/11/2020] +: and not interested too
[11:19 am, 05/11/2020] +: Funny cuz I came across a survey from Happydot.sg and it asked whether SG would remain focused on the issue to see what's the next step
[11:23 am, 05/11/2020] +: Tbh not really a hot topic right now cos US election probably overshadow it
[11:23 am, 05/11/2020] +: But I spoke to my mom and she mention that Min Sham spoke in parliament for 3 hours about this
[11:24 am, 05/11/2020] +: Also prolly because this has dragged for quite long
[11:35 am, 05/11/2020] +: This is a good move. Transparency promotes trust. No person no system is perfect. Our minister is MAN enough to acknowledge imperfection and takes action to improve and minimise shortcomings. ๐๐ป๐๐ป๐๐ป
[11:38 am, 05/11/2020] +: How did a slip up in the investigation lead to a slip up in the prosecution only for the apex court judge to point it out!?๐คท♀️
[11:39 am, 05/11/2020] +: Criteria for public defender office assistance needs to be wider than that for legal aid.
[11:41 am, 05/11/2020] +: Yup
[11:42 am, 05/11/2020] +: Many things that happen in the court house are unbelievable to layman.
[11:44 am, 05/11/2020] +: My thoughts are these: everyone is biased regardless of how neutral they want to be it's just way of life. We are each looking through our own "lens" of the world. When you have only a few people making decision on judiciary matters, there will bound to be such "unjust" cases. However, it is also different people having different views that Liyani is able to get a successful Appeal from High Court. This shows our Judiciary system is in fact working properly. The only other alternative to this would be Jury system but that would be another discussion entirely.
[11:45 am, 05/11/2020] +: Yes yes I totally agree
We are never truly neutral one, we'll have our opinion but whether we want to make them known is another thing
[11:49 am, 05/11/2020] +: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/timeline-changi-airport-group-cag-chairman-maid-parti-liyani-13089208
[11:52 am, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Justice must be carry out fairly irregardless of social status.
Only then our society and nation will continue to survive and thrive.
Remember human law will be the first line of defence - in dispensing justice and maintain human peace.
The 2nd line of defence is Universal Law of Karma.
When human law fails, karma takes over.
[11:52 am, 05/11/2020] +: https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Singapore-not-have-a-jury-system?top_ans=67673498
[11:52 am, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Biden winning.
Yes my intuition and prediction has come true.
[11:53 am, 05/11/2020] +: Yeah like in korean drama and US court case those who can afford wins the case ๐. If she is not on legal aid it would have cost her more than $100k
[11:53 am, 05/11/2020] +: Yes and no. The system had worked well such that the High Court could pick out the discrepancies and flipped the ruling, but as judicial decision-making goes, how did these discrepancies slip the notice of the district Court? It shouldn't have, and reading the high court decision, it appeared that the district Court seemed to have gotten some fundamentals on the burden of proof issue wrong. It looked like complainant claims this item is ours, court goes OK, defence, prove that it's not theirs. That totally reverses the burden of proof and goes against the "prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt".
[11:54 am, 05/11/2020] +: The good thing about a jury is that the evidence is presented simply and publicly. Perhaps there could be more public scrutiny, but the final decision lays with the judges.
[11:55 am, 05/11/2020] +: Agreed
[11:56 am, 05/11/2020] +: A jury trial is just the contrary. A jury is not legally trained, they will be swayed by emotion and take into account matters which are irrelevant. It'll throw the evidence rules out the window. The showmanship of the counsel also becomes a factor in who wins.
[11:56 am, 05/11/2020] +: Also, can a judge not have unconscious bias? Is it too easy for a single judge to make a mistake without proper scrutiny?
[11:57 am, 05/11/2020] +: Eh, I didn't start the Jury system discussion ah cos it's a can of worms. Dun wait everyone blame me.
[11:57 am, 05/11/2020] +: Er. Singapore no jury system
[11:57 am, 05/11/2020] +: I think every person will have unconscious bias to a certain extent, but the people operating in the legal sector must actively guard themselves against it. Easier said than done, of course.
[11:58 am, 05/11/2020] +: Yes, I have served as the foreman of a jury in a double murder trial. It was almost impossible for 12 inexperienced people to manage the inconsistencies from the police and defence. I can see why, similar to referendum, it doesn't help.
[11:58 am, 05/11/2020] +: Hence the "lens" is tinted
[11:58 am, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
6 more Electoral votes, Biden will win.
Nevada 6 Electoral votes has flip from red to blue.
Still counting mail in votes that favour the Blue.
[11:58 am, 05/11/2020] +: A recap on the case. Its a hot issue among me and some friends who have maids at home.
What went wrong:
1)Parti was arrested a few years after she was terminated. And her trial + investigation took a total of 3yrs to conclude
2)The evidence in questioned were returned to the family so that they will not be re-victimised as claimed by the IO. The IO has an opinion as treating the Liew family as victims then.
3) No proper bahasa indonesian translator for Parti.
4) The judge who acquitted Parti said,
"In my judgment, there is reason to believe that the Liew family, upon realising her unhappiness, took the pre-emptive first step to terminate her employment suddenly without giving her sufficient time to pack, in the hope that Ms Parti would not use the time to make a complaint to MOM," said the High Court Judge.
[11:58 am, 05/11/2020] +: Yes, we are discussing the merits of the legal system in Singapore
[11:58 am, 05/11/2020] +: But another person came along and flip the verdict
[11:58 am, 05/11/2020] +: Wrong topic, lol
[11:58 am, 05/11/2020] +: So it shows our Judiciary is working
[11:59 am, 05/11/2020] +: Eh???? Jury was abolished in Singapore in 1969!!!!
[12:00 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I was not always in Singapore!
[12:01 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Ah!! I see!!
[12:02 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐
[12:02 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คญ
[12:02 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Dun like that lah
[12:03 pm, 05/11/2020] +: can?
[12:05 pm, 05/11/2020] +: She was lucky to meet the right people .. not sure it is correct to assume everyone can be so lucky.
[12:08 pm, 05/11/2020] +: It's not just meeting the right people. There are many times where the litigants themselves throw in the towel and took the easy way out because they're tired of being dragged through the proceedings. It's actually very very tiring
[12:10 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yeah never mind the money if you're rich, imagine the number of trips you have to make
[12:11 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yah. Even if it was entirely free, the fatigue is real.
[12:11 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I've also been on the jury of a criminal trial. There are arguments for and against juries but juries often get things wrong. However, when they get things wrong it is generally to the defendant's advantage - guilty people getting off.
[12:11 pm, 05/11/2020] +: China is already welcoming Biden.
They have even named a central landmark in Beijing for Biden.
"FOR BIDEN CITY!"๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ
[12:11 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Open court hearing are hardly seen in our judiciary. Public tends to misinterpret and this usually leads to severe penalties.
[12:12 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Biden will be good for the world.
[12:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Ha ha ha
[12:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: True and the blame is put on the will of the people, rather than the justice system!
[12:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: In my opinion, minister has created a little confusion yesterday by revealing the prosecutor has evidence that Parti is lying. So there are evidences that she lied, but the judge acquited her of all charges? Is that the conclusion Min Shanmugam is saying?
[12:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yup. No necessarily good for justice.
[12:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: haha, that is quite witty!
[12:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Not true. Criminal matters are always heard in open court. You can always sit in the viewing gallery any time.
[12:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Why is LML still holding on to the award given by the government?
[12:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I still need some enlightenment on this Parti rock is in the house case
[12:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: oh! good to know :)
[12:14 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-03/ant-group-says-hong-kong-ipo-also-suspended
China government regulator stop Alibaba gigantic Ant IPO that will cannabalise China govt digital yuan initiative (DCEP).
So look like Alipay and WeChat pay ๅป่ฟๆฐด。
[12:14 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Ant to refund US$167.7 billion to 1.55 million Hong Kong investors in two batches after IPO is suspended
https://amp.scmp.com/business/banking-finance/article/3108401/ant-refund-us1677-billion-155-million-hong-kong-investors
[12:14 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Limited capacity so expect print media to carry articles. Free to sir channel too.
[12:14 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yes I agree. And it's a litigation strategy fail lah. You have evidence that you chose not to place before the court, so the court draws inferences one way. And now the statement says "the inference should've gone the other way". Sorry lor, that's the nature of an adversarial system. AGC made a wrong tactical call, too bad.
[12:15 pm, 05/11/2020] +: What do you need? There's a lot of information
[12:15 pm, 05/11/2020] +: From the top down to the down low to download into my noggin ๐
[12:16 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Heard Temasek is subscribing to Ant IPO, hope we get our refund.
China government is serious in getting their digital yuan DCEP going - and will shoot down any private company meddling in the country monetary policy.
[12:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: At any point in time, there are many many courtrooms processing many many cases. And not everything is going to be a full trial, most hearings are administrative in nature. It wouldn't be practical to have live streams of court proceedings lah, imo. But parliament live stream though.........
[12:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: The Minister said that there were inconsistencies in her story: she is not educated to Singapore standards, had just been arrested for theft, and was speaking in her second language. If we got arrest in Jakarta for theft and were being questioned in Bahasa there would be inconsistencies in our story.
Plus, one of the key inconsistencies was that she said she was on holiday in Singapore: its illegal for a foreigner to come to Singapore to hunt for work so is there any great surprise that she didn't say "I'm here illegally looking for a job"?
[12:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Ya eh I waiting for parliament livestream
[12:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: And this is not the only story of his trashy family. I heard quite a few from CAG interns too. One of which is LML’s wife wanna go overseas, drove her car to the airport and insisted to park in the staff carpark (free/discounted prices) instead of public carpark. The carpark attendent uncle didnt allow her to do so. Soon afterwards he was fired. Coincidence? We think not.
https://www.allsingaporestuff.com/2020/11/04/liew-mun-leongs-bad-behaviour-as-cag-chairman-shouts-at-staff-do-you-know-who-i-am/
[12:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Raise dunno how many times and kena slap down every single time
[12:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Is this even appropriate though
[12:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: This must be addressed if true or the party has to take it off social media.
[12:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Must raise even higher!
[12:19 pm, 05/11/2020] +: How much will be returned from what was put in!,?
[12:19 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Keep raising it lor. Reach can pass on the feedback ๐คญ
[12:20 pm, 05/11/2020] +: REACH WITH YOUR ARMS AND CHOKE IT DOWN
[12:20 pm, 05/11/2020] +: On a serious note though I just think it's better for us to hear the parliament sessions rather than receive so-called secondary information from MSM
[12:20 pm, 05/11/2020] +: That's why transparency is important. Whether the people agree to the verdict or not, people who are interested in a case of public concern/importance, are provided with sufficient information so that they can continue to trust the system. Sham made a good move to share details.
[12:21 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Don't know, read somewhere that Temasek interested in investing in Ant IPO, not alot of details.
When the IPO is called, China government stop it and call up jack ma for dressing down.
[12:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yah... The news articles don't always pick up the nuances. Unless you go and read the actual parliamentary reports
[12:29 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Government still pondering live or delayed telecast of parliamentary proceedings
[12:30 pm, 05/11/2020] +: This is available https://youtu.be/1UK9KsRHG3A
[12:33 pm, 05/11/2020] +: It wasn't the transparency that we expected though. It was a "look here then divert attention", if I could put it in less elegant terms. What is still left unaddressed is whether unconscious bias played a part in the process in eact person, from the IO's decision of the "another typical case, maid always steal things, and this is a man of standing so unlikely to lie, therefore I can hold off the physical examination of the disputed items" to the judge's "complainant has said this belongs to them, you prove otherwise". Second thing which is not explained is why the very long gap of 5 weeks from first report until the first visual inspection of the disputed items. Why not everything documented? Why not properly documented? Why IKEA bed sheet recorded as Habitat? Things like that is glaring, instead what we got from the statement are strawman arguments and diversion from the real issues. It's frustrating actually.
[12:40 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐ฑ๐จ๐คท♀️
[12:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: err.. life is not perfect. Many people are stretched, too many cases. Police, prosecutors, investigators, paralegal too. Lapses are inevitable. However, this does not mean that it is ok for injustice. Improvement in transparency will lead to many good things. Correcting the verdict and setting a precedent is one of the good stuff.
[12:52 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yes
[12:52 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I agree, life is not perfect. But this is one which fought all the way and got the public's attention. How many more may have lapses and it doesn't get picked up? And this is one of those cursed cases where every single step of the way, there was something that went wrong. And whilst you are right that it's a good outcome that the verdict was overturned, but my point is that the transparency in statement did little to address the true questions which needed to be answered.
[12:54 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Public perception is, how many were not made public!?
[12:55 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Most law abiding citizens won’t really view this as a big issue imho
[12:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think the most important is to sacrifice one
[12:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: In this case Karl Liew
[12:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Kill one warn the rest
[12:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yes
[12:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Once they set precedent that even if you millionaire but commit perjury you will still be charged
[12:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: It is good to have questions. Sham & team will probably respond if the questions are listed out clearly.
[12:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Need to be clear cut. Communicate clearly Everyone need either one .
[12:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Let the rich and powerful know that although we are not perfect, our legal system is still working fine
[12:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: many many laH
[12:58 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Back to normality. No covid, no election. US News covering what really matters ๐
[12:58 pm, 05/11/2020] +: https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/compulsory-use-tracetogether-check-venues-such-malls-schools-workplaces-december-govt
Is like everywhere liao
[1:06 pm, 05/11/2020] +: That would be a myopic view to take imo. The confidence in the legal system is necessary because you never know when you're going to have to utilise the legal system or get dragged through one. Particularly in a criminal justice system, it calls for a very delicate balance of the investigations stage, prosecution, judicial system and defence, and the very fact that this is an adversarial system. But if there is unconscious bias in these components which remain unaddressed which skews that delicate balance, it sends a wrong message to the public that once you kena whether rightly or wrongly, that's it. If you're not a rich and powerful or not in a position of privilege, you're screwed. We see the extreme example in the US system where black people kena so bad. We can't let our system go down that slippery slope.
[1:08 pm, 05/11/2020] +: How can privileges come above the law? Likewise with all the university outrage of modesty cases
Just because they have a bright future? Zzz
[1:08 pm, 05/11/2020] +: love your passion on this. Keep it up.
[1:09 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think it's like COVID, when it doesn't concern us we bochup, but when we kena, too late
[1:09 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yep...
[1:11 pm, 05/11/2020] +: that was really ridiculous. But things are changing, although too slowly and too little. I think one of the multi repeated nus offenders got jail term. News was out in Oct.
[1:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yah I agree. Still a running joke that you get 1 "get out of jail free" card if your GPA is above 4.38
[1:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: many folks have mentality of ๅฎๅญๅ ฉๅๅฃ, so they dont bother
[1:14 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ไธ่งๆฃบๆไธๆๆณช ๐คญ
[1:16 pm, 05/11/2020] +: That's why the upcoming public defender office will help widen the outreach to those not financially capable but to what extend the criteria remains to be seen.
[1:16 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
We need to ensure that our local talent are treasured and can contribute immensely to Singapore and Singaporeans well being.
Because talents are very rare.
But we also need to ensure that our talents are of good character.
Hence education system must not only produce talents in job skills but also good character building.
[1:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: that was absolutely upsetting. That judge cannot be politician, ไธๅพๆฐๅฟ。
[1:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: The Singapore core!
[1:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ya lor
[1:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: It only provides access to representation but it doesn't address other systemic biases in the other components in a legal system. But public defender is a move that I welcome with wide open arms.
[1:19 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
If our 1st generation are not make up of leaders of rare talents and good character to define Singapore and Singaporeans - years after years, generations after generations, Singapore cannot progress so far.
[1:20 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I mean to be fair to the judge, there were other factors in her judgment. But obviously the reporter picks up on the most sensational point right...? I no longer trust court reporters anymore. They are no longer specialists (not like last time) and they're writing click-baity stuff to sensationalise issues and increase readership.
[1:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Dig a hole in the ground and stay there!
[1:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yes that’s why Reach is asking for different feedback. I’m just here to report what I see and hear on the ground. Almost no one is talking much on this legal issue.
[1:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: It’ll not just be Trump who leaves. More rich people will leave if Biden gets elected
[1:26 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Hahahaha.
Because a full list of civil and criminal litigation is waiting for him.
[1:26 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think it's because of the understanding of legal matters cuz if it's too chim, no one's really gonna say anything
[1:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Once you have widespread corruption or legal issues that are questionable, you don’t even have to wait for Reach to ask for feedbacks. Everyone will be rambling about it online and Hong Lim will be packed.
[1:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: All the opposition parties will start taking pot shots etc
[1:32 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Virtual Hong Lim!! Actually that would be cool sia
[1:33 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Digital signature for SingPass users to sign legal documents
A digital signature feature was launched on the SingPass mobile app on Thursday (Nov 5) to provide "greater convenience" in legal documentation signing, said the Government Technology Agency of Singapore (GovTech).
Dubbed “Sign with SingPass”, the service will enable more than 2.1 million users to sign digital documents in less than two minutes, said GovTech in a media release.
More: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/singpass-digital-signature-e-document-govtech-property-caveat-13469756
[1:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Omg this is so cool!!!
[1:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yah!
[1:38 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yet
[1:39 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Great foresight to move into the digital domain
[1:39 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Personally I would advocate for greater awareness of legal issues among the people, but that's just me. I believe there's now a small component in CCE (?) in schools which introduces the students to the basics of the Singapore legal system. That's a very good start!
[1:41 pm, 05/11/2020] +: No need for such remarks. I agree on your reasoning but disagree on your opinion.
[1:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Worth looking into
[1:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: To sidetrack a bit: if person is being prosecuted for a crime and is not eligible for pro bono legal aid and is subsequently acquitted, he has to pay his own legal fees and the G is not liable. I find this unfair. This means that a person can lose his hard earned savings / wealth just to defend his innocence.
[1:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Aiya be more creative ma, SignPass!
[1:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: That's nice to hear!
[1:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: There are cost orders which can be made against the prosecution, but the threshold is very very high. Need to show that the prosecution was frivolous or vexatious before you can get costs.
[1:51 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I do apologise if any offence was taken, none intended. The myopic view wasn't in relation to you personally, but generally for people to take the view that legal issues "not my daiji" is quite myopic because at some point you'll have to come across some legal problem so it's always good to have an awareness of it.
[1:55 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Hopefully, public defender office can plug this gap
[2:03 pm, 05/11/2020] +65 9654 2001: Spore has one of the best legal system in the world.
[2:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐
[2:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Is this true?
[2:15 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I would agree
[2:23 pm, 05/11/2020] +: all litigants have to pay their own legal costs, unless you qualify for legal aid. as i mentioned, there's a possibility for a cost order to be made against prosecution, but a very very high threshold is required. Frivolous = "prosecution anyhowly decide to prosecute", Vexatious = "prosecution no like your face so one charge failed, they find another charge to whack you with it and keep whacking you until something sticks". As you can see, this kind of scenario very unlikely to happen in SG, that's why you seldom see cost orders being made against prosecution.
[2:30 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Noted
[2:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐ good points!
[2:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: What is “best”?
[3:04 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yeah don't worry, CQ is just very passionate about this topic. Although we disagree on certain things, he didn't mean to insult or slight anyone. Sometimes chat group is like that where we only read the words but can't tell the intention.
[3:04 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Easy to be mistaken.
[3:07 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Even without Pennsylvania votes, Nevada votes will be sufficient to ensure Biden win.
[3:08 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I would like to suggest to G on some of the issues that we can put on fast track.
1) Environmental sustainability: We have pledged to reduce carbon emission, we have spoke about the worries of the sea-level rising, but till now, there are lots of discussion on how to go on abt it. We have looked at other countries for ideas, Taiwan and China on their recycling projects, Holland and Swiss on how they switch from driving to cycling. I have seen all the wonderful ideas other countries have for a Sustainable Green city in our Science centre, but none of it is implemented in Singapore.
2) 4G Connectivity: Wifi is becoming more of a necessity nowadays, and Singapore's best attempt to improve connectivity is to provide free WIFI in MRT stations. However, is it sufficient? HK and Thailand has free wifi available to people visiting the malls. The ease of me assessing to the internet to check for directions or look for restaurants is incredible.
Here are 2 things I can think of.
[3:08 pm, 05/11/2020] +: No offence taken. Cheers.
[3:11 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คฃ
[3:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Agree
[3:25 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
But States law say all votes must be counted.
So Trump has no ground to say stop counting.
Senate republican leader say counting must continue.
Supreme court rule that counting must continue.
[3:26 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
If Pennsylvania fall to Biden, Trump fate is sealed.
[3:29 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
The win for Biden is too big for Trump to contest.
[3:31 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Rudy Gulliani is supposed to just make some noise as dotard's trusted lieutenant!?
[3:31 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Agree
[3:32 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Yes. They are just struggling before drowning.
REACH
[3:34 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คจ
[3:34 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คญ
[3:34 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐ ๐คฃ๐
[3:39 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Time for bell lah sia ๐
[3:55 pm, 05/11/2020] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
The moral of the story of today's topic is:-
1. Be a good guy.
2. Don't be a bad guy.
3. No matter how powerful or high position is, if he is a bad guy - bad things will catch up with him.
[3:59 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I remember Ng Boon Gay’s case
[4:05 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yeah, that person!
[4:16 pm, 05/11/2020] +: No fireworks at Marina Bay on New Year's Eve amid COVID-19 pandemic
There will be no fireworks display at Marina Bay on New Year's Eve to "mitigate public health risks" amid the COVID-19 pandemic, the organisers of the countdown event said on Thursday (Nov 5).
Fireworks will instead be set off at various heartland locations islandwide, said the Marina Bay Singapore Countdown 2021 organisers.
"Agencies are working out details and more information will be provided in due course," said the organisers in a media release on Thursday.
More: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/new-year-eve-countdown-no-fireworks-marina-bay-13471124
[4:16 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think an external review will hammer in that point in even more
[4:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: As they say , true gold will not be afraid of fire.
[4:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: 7 new COVID-19 cases in Singapore, including 1 in the community
Seven new COVID-19 infections were reported in Singapore as of noon on Thursday (Nov 5), including one in the community.
There were also six imported cases who were placed on stay-home notices upon their arrival in Singapore, said the Ministry of Health (MOH) in its preliminary daily update.
Details of the new cases will be released on Thursday night, said the ministry.
More: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-cases-moh-nov-5-coronavirus-13469500
[4:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Editing the motion to say nothing is wrong in the judicial system is presumptive. I hope they are not just gonna sweep it under the carpet like this . Real or not ,ita better to be thorough and prove to everyone without reasonable doubt that there isnothing wrong with the system
[4:19 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Guess I came in at the wrong time again. Topic moved on already ๐ฉ
[4:19 pm, 05/11/2020] +: no no, not at all! you raised a good point about true gold not being afraid of fire!
[4:22 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yah, but I just read CNA, no external review
[4:22 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Murali even amended it to say nothing wrong with the system
[4:22 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Seems like gonna whitewash liao :(
[4:22 pm, 05/11/2020] +: yah lor. totally hijacked WP's motion.
[4:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Partisan or not
[4:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think this case raised a lot of concerns on equality and justice
[4:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: as in who's partisan or not?
[4:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: They shouldn't have made it political
[4:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: As it is important
[4:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think it is a case for common good
[4:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: An external review doesn't benefit WP
[4:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: It benefits all Singapore and
[4:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Singaporeans
[4:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: We all want assurance that the legal system is ok
[4:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: A review will do that
[4:30 pm, 05/11/2020] +: not that they made it political lah, but because police comes under MHA's purview, so it's about the accountability there expected from Min Shan cos it's under his portfolio. AGC is an organ of state, there isn't any minister in charge there, but what Min Shan can do is to collect the information and relay it in Parliament lor
[4:31 pm, 05/11/2020] +: but yah, no external review. all internal review and "nope, nothing to see here"
[4:32 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Ownself check ownself syndrome ?
[4:33 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think pap needs to be more confident of themselves and the civil service
[4:33 pm, 05/11/2020] +: LKY would have probably went through everything with a fine comb
[4:33 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คท๐ป♀️ not like there's something glaringly off, but even if there isn't, everyone would be nervous about an audit which is intended to pick a bone from an egg
[4:34 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Trying to say everything is ok and repeating it as nauseum isn't convincing
[4:35 pm, 05/11/2020] +: And sacked all those who screwed up. He was famous for having no tolerance in the civil service for those who didn't measure up
[4:37 pm, 05/11/2020] +: exactly, and that's why i was particularly annoyed about yesterday's statement. it doesn't address the real problems and it's not reassuring from an academic perspective. maybe it's enough from a practical level lah, and i'm just being nitpicky about semantics. but the frus at the message is real
[4:40 pm, 05/11/2020] +: i mean, i don't believe in scapegoating and pushing people out to die lah. if a proper root cause analysis is done and you tease out any underlying issues, then just fix and move on lor. don't necessarily have to sack the person, maybe retraining and an internal disciplinary measure is enough depending on the problem.
[4:40 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Sounds like a perfect match for BVIsolation failure
[4:43 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I partially agree but I think a carrot and stick approach is still needed. Three times and u are out and not just scrapegoating. In most private sectors, the top to go even if it's the bottom that screws up as the top has supervisory responsibiliy
[4:43 pm, 05/11/2020] +: yah, so maybe a transfer out and demotion until you prove yourself to management again. just don't make excuses lor. or worse, when other people got error, say they have to harakiri but a different standard applies to yourself.
[4:43 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Some stick does keep everybody on their toes
[4:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Sad that no one seems to be concerned about this case generally
[4:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: yah i agree with the 3 strikes rule. not the 1 strike lah. 1 strike is a bit harsh
[4:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I was expecting more out of this
[4:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Not even a whimper it seems
[4:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: If you say stick up the pigu maybe they'll be scared and keep up on their toes even more ๐คญ
[4:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Was expecting at least a few days of robust debates
[4:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: yah i know right??
[4:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Lol, no BDSM pls. Just Rotan good enuff ๐คฃ
[4:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think sometimes we see also see until sick
[4:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Thus no noise
[4:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Indifference is the worse leh
[4:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Means pple lose faith in the system already
[4:46 pm, 05/11/2020] +: It's the worse but it's always because things never change and everyone's sick and tired of trying to change things
[4:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: not really lah, or maybe people really feel that the statement given was enough to address their questions lor
[4:51 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think the latter is even worse leh
[4:51 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Honestly I think most pple just don't care until it happens to them
[4:52 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Not exactly a good thing
[4:52 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Democracy only works if everyone cares or participates
[4:53 pm, 05/11/2020] +: yeah, which is why i personally advocate for greater general awareness of our legal system and legal issues
[4:53 pm, 05/11/2020] +: His legacy is being eroded!
[4:53 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yeah. Sad
[4:54 pm, 05/11/2020] +: We are a small country
[4:54 pm, 05/11/2020] +: We cannot afford such things to happen
[4:54 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Things can go downhill fast
[4:54 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I expected this from him when he said some time ago, he will cushion the backlash against law enforcement agencies.
[4:55 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐๐๐
[4:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Demote the person and place them in an inconspicuous position
[4:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think if the screw up is bad enuff
[4:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Sack
[4:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Same as private sector
[4:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yes
[4:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Full accountability
[4:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: as a boss i think he has to, because criticism against law enforcement agencies will always happen, and you can't keep doing an inquiry for every small thing otherwise your law enforcement guys become ineffective if they become overly defensive in their operations. but when there's a good enough reason, you cannot shield or cushion blindly also lar...
[4:56 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Leads to full responsibility
[4:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: like Spiderman
[4:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: The police in Singapore is already precieved to have a lot of power liao
[4:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Being more open n less defensive will help address that perception
[4:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คท♀️
[4:57 pm, 05/11/2020] +: But adopting a besieged mentality and attacked all criticism
[4:58 pm, 05/11/2020] +: that's why i mentioned earlier, delicate balance lor...
[4:59 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yah
[4:59 pm, 05/11/2020] +: But no one seems to care
[4:59 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Haiz
[4:59 pm, 05/11/2020] +: but... i care.....
[4:59 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think there's mostly 2 groups of people,
Don't care, regret when it hits them
Care, but no one cares about what they say so they're tired as well
[5:00 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I hope it doesn't get to a point until we see snow falling in the middle of June before pple realize that the judicial system needs review
[5:00 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Hahahaha
[5:00 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Drop drop drop drop like grapes!!
[5:00 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐
[5:01 pm, 05/11/2020] +: By then dunno how many wronged ghosts liao ๐ฉ
[5:04 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Dreadful if it becomes reality
[5:09 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I dunno
[5:09 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Nobody really knows how many cases are actually missed
[5:09 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I don't think this is the only case
[5:10 pm, 05/11/2020] +: This is the only one that was caught by the court of appeal
[5:11 pm, 05/11/2020] +: no clue.... and if they plead guilty, that's it
[5:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: If u r poor and uneducated, you will plead guilty
[5:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: True true, more education is needed
Plus watching all those drama with court scenes will only confuse people about real proceedings
[5:15 pm, 05/11/2020] +: no lah. your counsel will advise you whether you have any basis to challenge. and to be fair, our AGC generally don't proceed to charge unless it's quite clear cut one lah. so at least from the evidence they already have, they would've assessed whether there's enough to proceed to charge, but they may not have the full picture including what the accused person might say at the time of the charge mah. they can only go based on the complainant's information, police reports, statements etc etc
[5:16 pm, 05/11/2020] +: But confirm will hear from both sides first right? So what then is the issue?
[5:16 pm, 05/11/2020] +: oh hell yah!! so much inaccuracy there! people think lawyers very eng and they think today come and see lawyer tomorrow go to court for full on trial
[5:16 pm, 05/11/2020] +: no, prosecution doesn't hear both sides. that's the judge's job
[5:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Ya so since judge does that, what's the issue ah?
[5:17 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think the issue is why this failed for the maid case
[5:18 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Did the judge presume guilt already based on status of the plaintiff m
[5:22 pm, 05/11/2020] +: To raise more awareness can I suggest Code of Law S7 or The Pupil S3? :3
[5:23 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I remember we used to learn law modules in nus
[5:23 pm, 05/11/2020] +: But only employment law and marital law
[5:23 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Women's charter . Hahah
[5:23 pm, 05/11/2020] +: if the issue is about unconscious bias, that bias is going to skew how the IO proceeds with investigation and evidence collection, which in turn will taint how the case is presented to the prosecution for their assessment whether to charge.
if prosecution has unconscious bias, he/she will pick the pieces of evidence which are strongest in pointing towards establishing guilt instead of presenting a fair point of view (eg the allegations that the prosecution were playing from the DVD's internal storage instead of playing from a disc such that "yah, it's still working ah. therefore it's stolen").
if the judge has unconscious bias, even if he/she is fully aware of the burden of proof, the weight that you accord to each piece of evidence may be skewed or you become quick to pounce on the slightest inconsistency, eg in this case, wp,em
[5:24 pm, 05/11/2020] +: *in this case, Parti's inconsistencies appeared to be more glaring to the trial judge but Karl's inconsistencies were glossed over
[5:24 pm, 05/11/2020] +: How did this Karl boi get involved ah
[5:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: he's a witness i think
[5:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: omg no...... they do have legal consultant lah, but so many things are glossed over and it's one of those today go and see lawyer tomorrow trial and gaodim already
[5:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: he's found guilty already
[5:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: for committing perjury
[5:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: he's Liew Snr's son, claimed that some of his items were stolen
[5:25 pm, 05/11/2020] +: joking lah you no chill leh :3
[5:26 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Jialat sia but really uh how to know someone speaking the truth or trying to recall what happened
Isn't there a proper procedure to assess that?
[5:26 pm, 05/11/2020] +: i want to see Wendy Lim again :3
[5:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: cannot say found guilty, because this morning only just charge. haven't gone to trial yet, just that prelim investigations show that he might've lied on stand. still need to test it out in court
[5:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: eh wait
[5:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: he was just charged?
[5:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: i tot he was found guilty
[5:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: hmmm
[5:27 pm, 05/11/2020] +: lol! eh, sore spot k...? clients come to us asking "next week can or not har?" of course not??!!! wah lau eh, you think drafting court papers is a 30 minute thing ah???
[5:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/karl-liew-charged-false-evidence-parti-liyani-mun-leong-13465200
yah, just this morning
[5:28 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Tell client, next week I weak ๐
[5:29 pm, 05/11/2020] +: that's why Min Shan was reluctant to say he definitely lied on stand yesterday, cos that would be presuming guilt which goes against the fundamentals of crim justice
[5:30 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ah i see
[5:30 pm, 05/11/2020] +: no idea why i tot he was guilty
[5:31 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Maybe we auto think kena charged means confirm guilty liao?
[5:31 pm, 05/11/2020] +: perhaps
[5:31 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Idk luh these atas sinkies too atas, we stay low can already ๐
[5:31 pm, 05/11/2020] +: because the High Court judge's finding in Parti's appeal that his witness testimony was inconsistent and lacks credibility
[5:32 pm, 05/11/2020] +: yes many of the news reports and what was being said made me feel like it's a done deal
[5:33 pm, 05/11/2020] +: yah, and that's understandable lah. but the HC judge was commenting on his testimony in Parti's case and not making a finding on his guilt, cos he hasn't gotten a chance to defend himself yet. thus in the charge now, he gets to put up a defence, or he can just plead guilty and try to mitigate based on "a bright future"
[5:34 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Hahaha the bright future part
Shake head sia
[5:35 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Lol and future contribution to society
[5:35 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Hahah
[5:35 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คญ
[5:35 pm, 05/11/2020] +: sounds like NUS case
[5:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: :3
[5:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Really that bright future shit really dropped the ball
[5:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Contribute what? More false testimony/evidence? ๐คญ
[5:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I get reminded of the 3 guillotines of justice bao
[5:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: All are equal under the law
[5:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ok i shouldn't be so rude. :P the bright future has been taken way out of context though, not just by reporters but also by defence counsel. the point is about the prospects of rehabilitation, and having a good education, strong family support etc etc are factors which will help to keep the person on the right path moving forward. but yah, everyone just homes in on the bright future without understanding the why
[5:36 pm, 05/11/2020] +: We must stop this lor, if your GPA good but you are ๐ฉ everyone should think twice and thrice or whateva
[5:37 pm, 05/11/2020] +: The guillotine might have a nicer design but your head still needs to go ๐
[5:37 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Actually it's more dangerous society if u are morally bankrupt but climb to positions of power next time
[5:37 pm, 05/11/2020] +: if you're an aristocrat, you get the privilege of using the gold one ๐
[5:38 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Ya would you rather high EQ or high IQ if the other must be low?
[5:38 pm, 05/11/2020] +: As long as no moral compass, high IQ or eq are equally dangerous
[5:38 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คฃ
[5:42 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐
[5:43 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Actually I see EQ as that moral compass
[5:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Actually no leh
[5:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Politicians have high eq but sometimes low morals
[5:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Look at the us
[5:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คฃ
[5:44 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Different perspective
[5:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: some both also don't have lor
[5:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Lol
[5:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: U referring to our politicians ah
[5:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐
[5:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Well, it could be Ethical Quotient (EQ) ๐
[5:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Parachute MPs ? Lolololol
[5:46 pm, 05/11/2020] +: no ah, the US
[5:46 pm, 05/11/2020] +: our side... well......... i reserve my comments. ๐
[5:46 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Us politicians need to canvass for votes
[5:46 pm, 05/11/2020] +: So u need minium some eq to at least do public speaking and attract pple
[5:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Even if u are trying to attract the KKK in certain cases
[5:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: But in Singapore, some candidates no need ๐คฃ
[5:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: true.... ๐ช
[5:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: What's the name of that guy thy had to pull out last minitev
[5:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Minute
[5:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: oh, Ivan Lim ah?
[5:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: The one that tio sexposed to be an ass t work
[5:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Yah yah
[5:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: U see how he handled iy
[5:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Low eq
[5:48 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ
[5:49 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Or rather low eq during his career and studies saboed him in the end
[5:49 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐
[5:49 pm, 05/11/2020] +: that one ah... he's a work of art lah. zero self-awareness
[5:49 pm, 05/11/2020] +: And military service
[6:12 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Thought they want to do an investigation on smearing his reputation?
[6:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: I think it was min Tharman who said that...
[6:13 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐คท๐ป♀️maybe investigate already then turned out to be true, so quiet quiet sweep one side
[6:45 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Dear Contributors!
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes* ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan
[6:46 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Gdnite Megan!
[6:46 pm, 05/11/2020] +: ๐๐๐๐✋๐ค
[6:46 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Moving towards Phase 3 safely
We can move towards Phase 3 of Safe Re-opening, only if we keep transmissions low. Before we can start Phase 3, we need more people to use TraceTogether. Download the TraceTogether app on your phone as this will allow us to contact trace and ringfence infections quickly.
English
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0O266M4R_0
Chinese
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsfYbewCHug
Malay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QuDNiwKsI
Tamil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrQ5CCoWFc8
For more information visit https://go.gov.sg/roadmap-phase-3
[6:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: Tata good night Megan!
[6:47 pm, 05/11/2020] +: G'nite Megan!
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