REACH 156 - Work Income Supplement for low-income workers (SK)
23 Oct 2020 (11am - 7pm)
REACH
[11:47 am, 23/10/2020] +: Dear contributors,
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REACH
[11:48 am, 23/10/2020] +: 📢 Topic 📢
What do you think of the Government’s increased support for lower-income Singaporean workers through the Workfare Income Supplement Scheme?
470,000 lower-income Singaporean workers who are on the Workfare Income Supplement (WIS) Scheme will receive $810 million in Workfare Special Payment (WSP) in October, said the Ministry of Finance on Friday (Oct 23).
In his Ministerial Statement on Aug 17, Deputy Prime Minister Heng Swee Keat had announced that WSP eligibility will be widened to include more than 70,000 additional workers, who will receive the WIS for their work done in 2020, and who are not already receiving the WSP.
These lower-income Singaporean workers will receive their October payout of the WSP from Oct 28. Most of them would have q…
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Rama
[11:51 am, 23/10/2020] +: Much needed
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Sam
[12:02 pm, 23/10/2020] +: This is killing few birds with one stone approach. Dishing out financial assistance to lower income group while encouraging them to continue to work, also helping company to keep workers, further differentiating wage competitiveness for local against FW.
[12:15 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
1. Providing financial assistance to low income workers.
2. Subsidizing mature workers salary to help mature workers secure jobs achieve 2 objectives :-
a. Help workers secure jobs and bring home higher salary.
b. Redistribution of wealth and an attempt to narrow social inequality.
Both are good social objectives.
However, this must be finance through running government budget or budget surplus.
It must not be finance by digging into our sovereign fund or our reserves.
[12:17 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Covid budget bearing fruit in reducing bankruptcies.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-21/asia-defies-dire-predictions-of-a-massive-spike-in-bankruptcies
[12:25 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
In other words, these social objectives must be sustainable - finance by annual running government budget.
[12:27 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
US dollars remain vulnerable
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/22/the-dollar-remains-vulnerable-to-significant-depreciation-standard-chartered.html
[12:30 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心: https://equalocean.com/analysis/2020061214085
[12:31 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Singapore can still play a role as yuan currency exchange in China digital yuan DCEP.
[12:41 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
But ultimately,
1. Low income workers - should upgrade their salary by upgrading their productivity and pay them higher salaries through PWM.
2. For mature workers, should transform their jobs and skillsets through ITM and pay them good salaries.
This will help government to slowly dispense with the needs to provide financial assistance - but instead rely on business and workers skillsets and higher productivity to self finance
[12:55 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
My close friend comments:-
What about those who lost their jobs. They lose their workfare? Double whammy
Caleb
[12:59 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I am concern the number of people that are on lower-income. 500K out of 2.3 million workforce.
https://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Labour-Force-Summary-Table.aspx
Ana
[1:09 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Payouts shouldn't be the norm. A minimum wage should be.
Rama
[1:10 pm, 23/10/2020] +: MW against PWM!?
[1:12 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心: [19/10,
1:44 pm] ☸️ Danny 心:
"The whole process in formulating this PWM is not based on mere 'folksy beliefs' - it is thoroughly negotiated based on hard data and a firm grasp of current workers' issues," he said. He added that with the PWM for the lift and escalator sector, entry-level lift technicians will earn minimally $1,850 per month.
"How would the proposed minimum wage of $1,300 even be meaningful? A minimum wage is too simplistic and does not reflect the realities of this sector," he said in his letter.
[19/10, 1:45 pm] ☸️ Danny 心:
This is the problem with minimum wage $1300.
It is plug from the air - not grounded on economic basis.
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Rama
[1:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +: 😅🤣😂
[1:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Peg to MOM?
[1:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yes .. if I am the employer wants to pay higher than the minimum wage to my workers esp if my business is small scale or labour intensive . Another problem arise too - wage for part timer too. Those who need 2 jobs to survive will suffer even more .
[1:49 pm, 23/10/2020] +: https://ntuc.org.sg/wps/wcm/connect/21cc6751-001b-4587-b3de-049c28d6f0e3/TCC+Enhanced+PWM+Skills+Ladder+Recommendations+Report+%283+Dec+2019%29.pdf?MOD=AJPERES
[1:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I heard there are some formulas that not easy to understand
[1:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/wp-chief-pritam-singh-calls-for-universal-minimum-wage-with-1300-base
Former nominated MP and Singapore University of Social Sciences economist Walter Theseira told The Straits Times that a universal minimum wage would effectively be a PWM covering sectors where the prevailing wages are at, or close to, $1,300.
[1:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +Perhaps that’s how the $1300 came about. Not plugged from air
[1:51 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Now you know every industries are unique.
Cannot anyhow force fit minimum wages $1300 to all industries.
Must use PWM to transform business and jobs to increase productivity and then increase their pay.
Forcefully increase their pay to $1300 will only force the boss to fire their workers as their business no longer become viable.
[1:52 pm, 23/10/2020] +: https://ntuc.org.sg/wps/wcm/connect/21cc6751-001b-4587-b3de-049c28d6f0e3/TCC+Enhanced+PWM+Skills+Ladder+Recommendations+Report+%283+Dec+2019%29.pdf?MOD=AJPERES
[1:52 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Over 4 year up almost 30% can company survive 😅😅😅
[1:52 pm, 23/10/2020] +: PS didn’t explain .. so it is a wild guess .. just to make people like us still talking about it weeks .. lol . They had succeed to build a narrative to bounce off the real discussion of jobs and economy . Matter of fact , people who hadn’t got pay rise for years felt this is the way to move forward .. haiz
[1:53 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
So WP MP theory of close to $1300 is not true because there are still business advertising at $800.
[1:53 pm, 23/10/2020] +: So they pass the cost to the companies to use them .. most Govt agencies
[1:54 pm, 23/10/2020] +Need to run more studies and research to see if it will be true
[1:54 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Depends on work hours 😅
So really hard to say.... $1300 should be based on 8 hours x 22 days work
[1:54 pm, 23/10/2020] +: $1300 work 60 hours
Or
$1300 work 40 hours makes a difference he didn’t really go deep into won’t know
[1:55 pm, 23/10/2020] +: My poly boys moonlight 1 month received more than 1.3k .. super subjective lah
[1:55 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
As far as I know many low income workers still fetching $800, $1000, $1200.
Else this small business cannot survive.
[1:56 pm, 23/10/2020] +I searched based on full time jobs, didn’t state the number of work hours
[1:56 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yah... so we won’t really know what is the real amount and how MOM define $1300 per month is based on work hours? Or work day etc
[1:57 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I knew a man on social assistance cried after he got a pay rise from $1300 to $1500 .. many strange things below .. got to check case by case
[1:57 pm, 23/10/2020] +But I don’t know those lowly paid workers can survive or not, seeing how much we need to earn to survive in Singapore
[1:57 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Even MacDonald advertise at $1200.
[1:58 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Do they include perks? Many company is a bit different... some have transport, food and lodging
[1:58 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
They are surviving as far as I know - but not ideal.
Only PWM will help them. Not minimum wages.
Minimum wage will take away their jobs and kill them.
[1:59 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
That one I don't know.
I heard from someone.
[1:59 pm, 23/10/2020] +: But 30% increase over 4 years is good job done I think.by setting the standard pay there is companies cannot find workers they will adjust to meet government standard
[1:59 pm, 23/10/2020] +: My sister-in-law is FTE with one of the hotels in sg and she's special needs. She draws below 1k monthly income before take home.
[1:59 pm, 23/10/2020] +: $7 per hr at MacDonald
[2:00 pm, 23/10/2020] +By going by Danny’s logic will these businesses die because need to pay more wages?
[2:00 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Depends on business... some might go down..
[2:00 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Unless business transform - using the kachang puteh analogy.
[2:01 pm, 23/10/2020] +: But weed out the weak so that people can live better life?
[2:01 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Else business will die 100%.
[2:02 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Business are still jobs for the owners.
Don't tell me you don't need barber, hawker food, value shops etc.
[2:03 pm, 23/10/2020] +: That’s what meant .. only G intervention can solve the problem with this group . we need to enable them and let me live with dignity and pride .
[2:03 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Depends on how much work is required, sometime physical challenge is hard to find job. Hence pay been push down ☹️ but really depends on the workload hard to tell by just money amount
[2:03 pm, 23/10/2020] +: That is natural selection . No choice .
[2:05 pm, 23/10/2020] +: If not Canada/Iceland how to have $2k $3k cleaner? 🤣
[2:07 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Min month pay not too bad already... wait till you go min pay by hours... that one think many companies cannot handle
[2:08 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Hence I mention these are those who fell in between the gaps
[2:08 pm, 23/10/2020] +: She works same load as others just that you need to instruct her what to do
[2:08 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
As government try to improve the salary of the low income workers, the government is also trying to improve small business and make them profitable.
If business survive and do well, workers will also get higher salary.
Cannot one sided increase workers salary and make business fold up.
This is what WP MP want to do. See one side but blind to another side.
Both business and workers income must be uplifted by PWM and ITM.
Workers are dependent on business survival and vice versa.
[2:09 pm, 23/10/2020] +: My friend having similar issues, hence I know... but we also need to know that they have grants and other help. Which normal people don’t get.
[2:09 pm, 23/10/2020] +: what grants? lol
[2:10 pm, 23/10/2020] +: she doesn't get anything more than her salary
[2:10 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Did she job handicap welfare associations? And other related groups?
[2:10 pm, 23/10/2020] +: but low wage have a benefit
[2:10 pm, 23/10/2020] +: she still has a job
[2:10 pm, 23/10/2020] +: nope
[2:10 pm, 23/10/2020] +: There are many grants..
[2:11 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Ask her to join they will guide her
[2:11 pm, 23/10/2020] +: she's special needs as in low intellect
[2:11 pm, 23/10/2020] +: she's physically abled
[2:11 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Low income tax :3
[2:13 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Hmm.. then is mental challenge, then need lots of guide from the company. So don’t expect high pay 😅
Capacity is a bit different 😓
[2:13 pm, 23/10/2020] +: But I think should still have some help, if you join like MINDS and stuff
[2:13 pm, 23/10/2020] +: True in a way, company has to accommodate
[2:16 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Is the company obligated to retain her? I'd like to understand about the job security part
[2:17 pm, 23/10/2020] +: but moving down the road, I think it would be nice if the government have some form of plan/assistance/subsidy for workers with special needs 😕
[2:17 pm, 23/10/2020] +: from what i know there are many others like her with special needs
[2:18 pm, 23/10/2020] +: The only one I know of is the travel concession card by SG Enabled
[2:18 pm, 23/10/2020] +: adhd, as, asd etc
[2:18 pm, 23/10/2020] +: There are many in Singapore... not easy for them to find job that’s for sure
[2:19 pm, 23/10/2020] +: they all can work
[2:19 pm, 23/10/2020] +: just need a little help
[2:20 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Check out one of those place that hires special needs - Dignity Kitchen
[2:20 pm, 23/10/2020] +: No income tax bro :3
[2:20 pm, 23/10/2020] +: A little help but lots of work for the company... to make sure it is safe for her/him cause anything will be bad press 😅
[2:20 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Even better!
[2:20 pm, 23/10/2020] +: In my humble opinion ah, It would be nice if the company can get certain tax rebates if they hire staff with special needs, that could potentially encourage more companies to hrie them
[2:21 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yes not expecting high pay but not even close to PWM pay
[2:21 pm, 23/10/2020] +: There are some schemes available
[2:22 pm, 23/10/2020] +: There is... but the length they have to go to hire them... not so easy, and MNC if any thing happen to them as staff another issue hence you don’t see many companies specially big ones take them in so much...
Other than like Mac, MOS and KFC example
[2:22 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Eg grants for doing up office wheelchair friendly.
[2:22 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Work to be design for special needs I different lots of work to be in place
[2:23 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yes... the work flow has to be customised . Btw they often have ‘Bad’ days too ..
[2:23 pm, 23/10/2020] +: You would rather hire someone normal for the same pay if someone is willing to work at that rate? Just fact 😅
[2:24 pm, 23/10/2020] +: nah there's not many who would take the job
[2:24 pm, 23/10/2020] +: mostly are malaysians
[2:25 pm, 23/10/2020] +: locals almost none
[2:25 pm, 23/10/2020] +: But Malaysian are normal.... so no need guide.. if they can they will hire all Malaysian
[2:25 pm, 23/10/2020] +: yes hence i'm saying more help for special needs ppl lor
[2:25 pm, 23/10/2020] +: i didn't say company must pay more
[2:26 pm, 23/10/2020] +: i'm saying gov can intervene and help here
[2:26 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Most company will get some form of grant, and usually these staff they put them in non sensitive assignment
[2:28 pm, 23/10/2020] +: yes of cos. there are already grants in place as Leonard mentioned.
[2:29 pm, 23/10/2020] +: and she does backend work like cleaning the backroom etc
[3:05 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
1. WP minimum wage is - increase workers salary without increasing business income - business fail fire workers.
2. ITM transform business to earn higher income, PWM restructure workers jobs and then pay them higher salary.
So 2 is better than 1.
WP MP kill business and then kill worker's jobs.
ITM and PWM increase business income and worker's salary.
So choose 1 or 2?
[3:05 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
WP incompetency in governance manifested.
Rama
[3:08 pm, 23/10/2020] +: 2
[3:13 pm, 23/10/2020] +: S'poreans least worried among S-E Asians about getting Covid-19, but less secure about jobs: Poll https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singaporeans-least-worried-about-getting-covid-19-in-south-east-asia-but-less-confident-of?&utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=addtoany
[3:15 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Chief Justice grants leave to probe DPPs for misconduct in former maid Parti Liyani case https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/chief-justice-menon-grants-leave-to-probe-dpps-in-parti-liyani-case?&utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=addtoany
[3:16 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
And yet WP want to bulldoze minimum wage - and cause business to fail and fire workers faster.
Rama
[3:17 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Lack of foresight!
CQ
[3:42 pm, 23/10/2020] +: i think we shouldn't get too partisan about the whole MW vs PWM issue. i would say that WP's starting position is not a bad one, because it's the fastest way to elevate the wages of those who are earning below the living wage line and PWM just takes way too long to reach everyone. the assumption that businesses will fold just because there's MW is a bit of a leap in logic, because we don't actually know what their profit margins are. perhaps if the business owners are prepared to take a smaller margin, pay themselves a little less and try to keep everyone's jobs, it would be feasible. however that's also a huge assumption to make, that everyone is inherently altruistic; not everyone can be like Teo Heng's boss. so it'd be best to consider the pros and cons of MW vs PWM objectively without considering which party came up with the idea. a proposal is still a proposal.
[4:05 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
So you only come from the position of workers but not from the point of business?
[4:06 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Many businesses already fold up without minimum wages.
Minimum wages will make it worst.
CQ
[4:06 pm, 23/10/2020] +: no i'm not saying that. all i'm saying is don't make this partisan. a proposal is a proposal, consider it for what it is without saying WP or PAP or whatever.
[4:09 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Union leaders and workers have ruled out minimum wages and are unhappy with minimum wages - reported by straits times.
[4:11 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/union-leaders-unhappy-with-workers-party-mp-jamus-lims-remarks-on-minimum-wage As expected, Union unhappy with Jamus Lim minimum wages.
[4:13 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
I expect representatives in parliament to be of higher governance standard - because they are dealing with the lives of Singaporeans and Singapore.
Rama
[4:15 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Agree
[4:15 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yes
[4:15 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Agree
[4:18 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Agreed. I'm glad there's active conversation about it. It really speaks poorly about our unions for being only that in name, and for not fighting for the rights of employees.
[4:19 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I concur!
[4:19 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I conquer
[4:20 pm, 23/10/2020] +: 😅😅😂
[4:21 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Union got $1850 for lift employees.
What did WP MP did?
[4:22 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
1. WP minimum wage is - increase workers salary without increasing business income - business fail fire workers.
2. ITM transform business to earn higher income, PWM restructure workers jobs and then pay them higher salary.
So 2 is better than 1.
WP MP kill business and then kill worker's jobs.
ITM and PWM increase business income and worker's salary.
So choose 1 or 2?
[4:22 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
This is what WP MP do.
Ana
[4:23 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I'm not a fan of the WP, but we can't keep blaming things on them that they don't have the political influence to impact 😅
[4:26 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Their ideas don't work and make things worst.
Timothy Low
[4:27 pm, 23/10/2020] +To be honest MW is not going to be implemented cause WP is not forming the government this time round. So no point having this discussion?
[4:28 pm, 23/10/2020] +Can’t help but to think that someone is very keen to talk down on WP.
Blue and White Flag Guy
[4:29 pm, 23/10/2020] +: You're not wrong 🤭
[4:29 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
I talk down on ideas that doesn't work.
[4:30 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
And WP is the champions of minimum wages.
Ana
[4:30 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Imo Singapore has a competent government. I don't want that to change, no matter which political party/ies they're made of.
But for a viable policy go be implemented, there needs to be conversations. From there, ideas. Which may fail! But which may also succeed
[4:30 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
They've been talking about minimum wages for many years already.
Timothy Low
[4:30 pm, 23/10/2020] +In that case just criticise MW will do. No point keep on harping that “WP kill business and then workers job” etc sweeping statement
Blue and White Flag Guy
[4:31 pm, 23/10/2020] +: 👏
Rama
[4:31 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Not even with a two party government will yhis matetialis
[4:31 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yes
[4:32 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
And good that this minimum wage is shot down.
Timothy Low
[4:33 pm, 23/10/2020] +Ultimately all parties want the best for Singapore, no single party will want Singapore to fail. So let’s just discuss about the ideas and policies, and let’s avoid being partisan here
CQ
[4:33 pm, 23/10/2020] +: yep... that's the point i was trying to make... you discuss the issue, not the party backing it. for better or for worse, they
[4:33 pm, 23/10/2020] +: *everyone's trying to make things better for Singapore and Singaporeans
[4:33 pm, 23/10/2020] +: 👍
Blue and White Flag Guy
[4:33 pm, 23/10/2020] +: We here to discuss issue, not here to create issue 🤭
[4:33 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Shot down by govt, union and business - tripartite alliance.
So how useful can this minimum wage be?
Timothy Low
[4:34 pm, 23/10/2020] +Ok we get your point. MW is not beneficial for Singapore.
[4:41 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Oh WP raise the idea of wanting to implement retrenchment insurance.
You think the idea is good and how it will affect the economy?
Berny
[4:43 pm, 23/10/2020] +: On this note on the retrenchment insurance, anyone knows why the "pensioner scheme" was being removed/phased out?
[4:45 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
But WP is a champion of this retrenchment insurance for many years.
Rama
[4:45 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Very long time ago
Berny
[4:45 pm, 23/10/2020] +: let's not talk about political parties
[4:46 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yes, but why was it removed?
Rama
[4:46 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Cpf took over.
Berny
[4:47 pm, 23/10/2020] +: wait, please correct me if i'm wrong, meaning those who are pensioners and is currently in the workforce, is not getting cpf?
CQ
[4:47 pm, 23/10/2020] +: But is retrenchment insurance such a bad proposal? We have insurance for unforeseeable health issues, why not insurance for retrenchment? Again, consider the issue, not the party championing it.
Timothy Low
[4:47 pm, 23/10/2020] +I think pension scheme will cause more money for the government
Berny
[4:47 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I know 1 guy who happened to be the last batch of the pensioner scheme
Rama
[4:47 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yes
[4:47 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Great
Blue and White Flag Guy
[4:47 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Someone long time never see bell already 🤭
Berny
[4:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +: so that means, he isnt getting the CPF?
[4:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +: or is he getting the pension on top of his retirement scheme
Timothy Low
[4:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +I think Those on pension scheme don’t need to contribute CPF
[4:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +And after retirement every month receive a sum of money till he/she is dead
[4:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +But only for civil servants right?
Lim
[4:48 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Politics aside, it is overly simplistic to say that MW or retrenchment insurance will collapse the economy/ certain industry sector
CQ
[4:49 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yep
Lim
[4:49 pm, 23/10/2020] +: We should look at real world evidence where such policies have been implemented and the resultant positive/ negative impact...
Berny
[4:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I dont think MW will cause company to collapse/get staff retrenched tbh
Timothy Low
[4:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +Too many factors to be considered. So let’s avoid any sweeping statement
Lim
[4:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Old time civil servants only. Nowadays one don have already, if i am not wrong
Berny
[4:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +: end of the day, the raising cost will be passed on to the end consumer
[4:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +: very long no more liao
Timothy Low
[4:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +Yes now don’t have liao
Berny
[4:50 pm, 23/10/2020] +: that happy guy is now 67 I think, lucky guy to be in the last batch
Rama
[4:51 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Yes
Berny
[4:51 pm, 23/10/2020] +: but to be objective on the MW and PWM ah, 1 gives you a flat increase, the other encourage you to work and upgrade for the increase
Rama
[4:52 pm, 23/10/2020] +: PWM is the way forward
Berny
[4:53 pm, 23/10/2020] +: and 1 is a sweeping policy that increase to all sector (correct me if i'm wrong on this), PWM only applies to certain sector
[4:53 pm, 23/10/2020] +: both has their own pros and cons
Rama
[4:53 pm, 23/10/2020] +: PWM now being expanded to waste management sector
Lim
[4:54 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Based on what i have heard, i prefer PWM with faster implementation; a lot of low wage workers need support
Berny
[4:54 pm, 23/10/2020] +: lift also
Rama
[4:54 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Great
Berny
[4:54 pm, 23/10/2020] +: lift is 2022 i think
Rama
[4:54 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Understanding of the particular industry takes time.
Berny
[4:55 pm, 23/10/2020] +: imo, both PWM and MW are feasible in singapore, what matters is which scheme is to be applied to which industry
[4:55 pm, 23/10/2020] +: eg. PWM on dish washers, what's there to "upgrade" on? the most that I can think of is to operate machinery
[4:56 pm, 23/10/2020] +: hence, MW may be more suitable for this role, imo
Rama
[4:56 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Can industry, union and employee support accept?
CQ
[4:56 pm, 23/10/2020] +: "how to wash better, faster and produce a squeak squeak" 😆
Lim
[4:56 pm, 23/10/2020] +: 😂
Berny
[4:56 pm, 23/10/2020] +: if it is pushed down from the top, employers have to suck thumb and accept, just like PWM
Blue and White Flag Guy
[4:56 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Wash until squeaky clean? Wash faster? 😂
Rama
[4:57 pm, 23/10/2020] +: So, remote possibly in say ten years from now?
Berny
[4:57 pm, 23/10/2020] +: I work for MCST, aka employer for several contractors, the PWM dropped like a bomb to us for cleaner, gardener and security, and now lift
Blue and White Flag Guy
[4:57 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Basically learn from mobility lah, there's no one-size-fits-all
Rama
[4:57 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Great 🤣😂😅
Berny
[4:57 pm, 23/10/2020] +: and there's no way we can say no to the increase because it dropped from the sky
[4:57 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
[12:15 pm, 07/09/2020] ☸️
Part 2 - The benefit or consequences of implementing Retrenchment Insurance
b. Retrenchment Insurance
My comments:-
- Retrenchments insurance is meant to provide temporary relief to people when they suddenly go retrenched.
- But it have many drawbacks if implemented - because it does not solve the problems of sustained earnings for the people.
- The drawbacks are :-
(i) Retrenchment insurance blunt people's motivation to work. If people received monthly retrenchment benefits, where is the motivation to work? No need to work also got money to take, then why work?
When this happen, Singaporeans no longer want to work - our workforce get depleted and business without workers will leave Singapore - and our Economy will collapse.
(ii) Also who pay for the retrenchment insurance premium?
- Some people say Employer pay. This means retrenchment insurance will add additional cost to business - and it means employers will reduce the salary of each workers or worst, no incentives to employ Singaporans as Singaporean workers are more expensive.
- Thus, business will either employ more foreign workers or leave Singapore.
- Then some people say, make Singaporean workers pay for the retrenchment insurance premium.
- What this mean is that - If pay by Singaporean workers, they will have less disposable income to spend for their daily living.
- Also currently, Employers and Singaporean Employees are already putting in money for CPF --- by forcing employers or employees to set aside money for retrenchment insurance premium --- it will make Singapore uncompetitive to the World labour market.
- Unless Singaporean workers set aside some money to buy their own insurance as savings ---- for rainy days - in the event some career crisis happens.
Blue and White Flag Guy
[4:58 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Increase better than decrease ma, just take it! 😂
Berny
[4:58 pm, 23/10/2020] +: that will mean increase in contributions for all owners
CQ
[4:58 pm, 23/10/2020] +: i think in whatever implementation, there should be a sunrise period so that businesses can also adapt and calculate their costs/recalibrate their profit margins. just a question of how long this sunrise period should be lah
Blue and White Flag Guy
[4:59 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Orh I forgot you from employer perspective hahaha psps
Berny
[4:59 pm, 23/10/2020] +: there is, like for lift, 2022, 2 years from announcement
Rama
[4:59 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Should this cover senior citizens or just the young and able bodied?
Berny
[4:59 pm, 23/10/2020] +: no worries, but end of the day, the cost will be pushed down along the line to all the end consumer
Timothy Low
[5:03 pm, 23/10/2020] +Just thinking, if one day got retrenched for a substained period of time, perhaps the government can allow them to draw out a small sum of money from CPF for emergency use?
[5:03 pm, 23/10/2020] +This can be in place of retrenchment insurance
[5:08 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Find new jobs for the retrenched will be sustainable.
Draw out CPF will deplete their retirement fund - and not sustainable.
Berny
[5:11 pm, 23/10/2020] +: what's the diff between paynow and paylah?
CQ
[5:11 pm, 23/10/2020] +: different banks
Timothy Low
[5:12 pm, 23/10/2020] +Of course in the long run finding new job will be sustainable.
The keyword is substained unemployment. If let’s say for a few months still can’t find a job can just allow them to tap like max 1% of cpf money for emergencies. Won’t be depleting the cpf money
Caleb
[5:12 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Paylah us for consumers with dbs only
Blue and White Flag Guy
[5:12 pm, 23/10/2020] +: PayLah is DBS one, PayNow is more like a network across the major banks
Berny
[5:12 pm, 23/10/2020] +: but dbs got both right?
Caleb
[5:12 pm, 23/10/2020] +: PayNow is can pay to alot of different banks
[5:12 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Pay now is universal sq qr code.
Paylah is dbs bank we code.
Blue and White Flag Guy
[5:12 pm, 23/10/2020] +: Eh but PayLah is like pioneer in this sector, then one by one you see OCBC Pay Anyone, UOB Mighty, etc
Berny
[5:13 pm, 23/10/2020] +: they also using paynow
[5:14 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Some people already finance their property with CPF and leave only medisave and retirement.
How will that help?
Timothy Low
[5:15 pm, 23/10/2020] +Of course, only allow people to tap if they have money in ordinary account instead.
[5:16 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
I not in favour of tapping CPF.
I favour government step in to train workers, pay workers training allowance, and then place them in jobs.
CPF is for retirement.
[5:18 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Else if people have easy money, they are not motivated to look for jobs.
Timothy Low
[5:18 pm, 23/10/2020] +I think you misunderstood. What I meant was to only tap a very small % (eg 1%) to tide over the raining days while government help them to find for jobs
[5:18 pm, 23/10/2020] +Or train them for new jobs
[5:18 pm, 23/10/2020] +99% left for retirement
[5:19 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
If govt give you $1200 training allowance every month while you train and then place into a job, do you still need to tap into CPF?
Timothy Low
[5:20 pm, 23/10/2020] +Oh! If training allowance is given then don’t need lor
[5:20 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
That's my point.
The government is doing it now.
Timothy Low
[5:23 pm, 23/10/2020] +Is the government giving training allowance to every unemployed? If yes that’s great
[5:24 pm, 23/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
This is what I know.
But need to register with e2i I think.
You need to register and check with career coach.
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