REACH 153 - PWM (Progessive Wage Model) vs Universal Minimum Wage (SK)
16 Oct 2020 (12pm - 7pm)
REACH
[10:50 am, 16/10/2020] +: Dear contributors,
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REACH
[10:59 am, 16/10/2020] +: 📢 Topic 📢
We want to continue hearing from you! How can the Progressive Wage Model, Workfare Income Supplement and other policy measures help to lift wages and mitigate income inequality for lower-income workers?
Dr Koh Poh Koon said in Parliament yesterday (16 Oct) that while a single minimum wage is "seemingly a quick way to raise the wages of workers", it could inadvertently put the most vulnerable low-wage workers at a disadvantage.
He emphasised the benefits of Singapore’s model of helping low-wage workers - a mix of the Progressive Wage Model (PWM), Workfare Income Supplement (WIS) scheme and training programmes - saying that it helps to improve low-wage workers’ incomes without putting their jobs at risk or raise consumer prices significantly.
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+ changed this group's settings to allow all participants to send messages to this group.
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Caleb
[11:22 am, 16/10/2020] +: Means is not send to door step
+65 6336 7926 changed the group description. Click to view.
Ken
[11:23 am, 16/10/2020] +: 😅 will be too expensive to send to them like that
Caleb
[11:24 am, 16/10/2020] +: So gov mislead us? Say it's via registered post
Ken
[11:25 am, 16/10/2020] +: Registered can be just email/sms reached right?
Long time never use registered thought got like that one?
Rama
[11:29 am, 16/10/2020] +: 😱😨
[11:29 am, 16/10/2020] +: 🤷♀️
Caleb
[11:30 am, 16/10/2020] +: They never say it's singpost registered mail lor.
So maybe in Gpost registered mail. 😂
Blue and White Flag Guy
[11:31 am, 16/10/2020] +: What's the difference when SingPost handles all the Post in Sing ah
Alvin
[11:31 am, 16/10/2020] +: 🤔🤭
REACH
[11:54 am, 16/10/2020] +: Changes to civil service’s Currently Estimated Potential system to kick in progressively from 2021: Chan Chun Sing
Read more at https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/changes-civil-services-currently-estimated-potential-system-kick-progressively-2021-chan
[11:59 am, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
PWM initially can apply to industry sectors eg. Cleaners, security guards etc.
But once low income sectors job have been identified and PWM apply - then probably it is the right time to identify those workers who fetch lower income per month based on the state figure - and try to apply PWM to their jobs which can be in any industry sector.
[11:59 am, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
When PWM is applied to income below defined figure, it should not be focused on only increasing salary for the sake of increasing the income of the low income workers.
There must be genuine increase in productivity.
Else PWM will increase business cost in the entire economy with no corresponding increase in productivity.
The overall productivity should exceed the salary increase as a result of PWM.
Else every one is paying higher price for goods and services without corresponding rise in quantity and quality.
[11:59 am, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Some people say, PWM can be easily implemented for industry sectors that are low income based workers like cleaners, security guard, lift technicians etc but other industry sector which fetch higher income will also have low income workers like clerk, admin office workers etc.
Then how to make use of PWM to apply to all industries sectors?
Suggest use ITM for those Industry sectors to transform low wag workers to transform their jobs and increase their pay.
[11:59 am, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
PWM is actually a subset of ITM.
Except PWM is more focus on low income workers sectors.
Alvin
[12:04 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Second this idea
Blue and White Flag Guy
[12:05 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I sincerely hope to see a better system out of this, CEP can at times become just as sensitive as salary information
Everyone is different, not everyone is going to fail and not everyone is going to fly with passing colours
I also hope that we can start moving towards a society where people recognise passion and not just paper qualifications
Brush away all the talk about those pretentious people who pretends to be passionate or will stop as soon as they achieve what they want
Think about the situation as my situation as it is actually my situation
I mean who the hell goes all out to do what he does that no one else chooses to? Those of you who know me fairly well would already know
Plus whether I do achieve my goal, I'll never stop contributing, …
[12:24 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Disadvantages of Minimum wages
https://www.economicshelp.org/labour-markets/disadvantages-minimum-wages/
[12:28 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
The opposition that push for universal minimum wage - need to understand the mechanics of economic theory and how it impact the business, jobs and Economy.
Thought there's a touted economics prof in the team?
Why did he not articulate the negative impact of minimum wage on the economy, business cost and impact the jobs on low wage workers.
Alvin
[12:33 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I also think that gov should be ready to include more industries in their PWM soon.
[12:34 pm, 16/10/2020] +: As we reach the end of covid19, industries that have been decimated might need PWM, eg. events, entertainment, arts, etc
[12:34 pm, 16/10/2020] +: not forgetting tourism, etc.
[12:34 pm, 16/10/2020] +: but help must be given to those companies as well as they rebuild from the ashes
Blue and White Flag Guy
[12:35 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Another question is how often should the PWM for each industry and sector be reviewed
Ana
[12:44 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I'm actually really interested in seeing any research that has been conducted on the S$1,300 proposal, especially by the political party which suggested it. Any rebuttals should also share their research.
I'm all for the implementation of minimum wage (not necessarily universal implementation) because I believe at the end of the day it provides a net benefit to society. Not just through an increase in wages, but also more needed spotlight on the already high consumer prices (from before minimum wage implementation).
Blue and White Flag Guy
[12:45 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Universal is a bad bad idea, it's basically one-size-fits-all and that never works
Rama
[12:45 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Minimum wage can be studied further while pwm is expanded.
Ana
[12:47 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Agreed. I have faith in our civil service, and honestly believe most of the great policies are created from within than from a top-down approach.
Rama
[12:48 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Chambers of commerce, sme, ntuc, government and snef must sit down and discuss the implications either way.
[12:51 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Public consultation and a white paper should follow subsequently
Alvin
[12:58 pm, 16/10/2020] +: This is a bit outside of today's topic but would like to suggest that we embark on bold futuristic direction.
We are already strong in 4 infra domains, land (road, rail, EMV, etc), air (world class airport, logistics hub, etc), sea (PSA, container terminals, seaports, ferry terminals & harbours) and information (fiber connectivity, SMART Nation, etc).
Could I dare suggest a fifth one? The edge, fringe and future domain. Space.
It's going to take a long time to build up such capabilities but I think it's worthwhile to explore such possibilities. There are resources out there and valuable R&D to be gained in ZeroG, etc. We also require more satellites with ERP 2.0, CubeSats and such.
Of cos all these is while we maintain and build upon existing 4 infra domains and futurise them which may in turn drive up space industry. My 2.14 cents
Rama
[1:01 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Singapore-Hong Kong travel bubble seen as 'calculated gamble' but needed remedy for cabin fever:: https://www.asiaone.com/singapore/singapore-hong-kong-travel-bubble-seen-calculated-gamble-needed-remedy-cabin-fever?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=addtoany
Blue and White Flag Guy
[1:03 pm, 16/10/2020] +: EMV is what ah
Ana
[1:04 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Talking about wages is such a sore spot. There are a number of expats who earn far more than Singaporeans (all else equal) simply because of the minimum wage for expats. That's why I'm all for minimum wage for Singaporeans.
[1:05 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Later will have complaints about bringing in foreign talent cos we don't have local talent for space le. 🙈🤭
REACH
[1:10 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Tax revenue up over FY2019, but analysts say income tax, GST collections expected to drop next year
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/tax-revenue-up-over-fy2019-but-analysts-say-income-tax-gst-collections-expected
Alvin
[1:14 pm, 16/10/2020] +: sorry EV
[1:14 pm, 16/10/2020] +: electric vehicle
[1:14 pm, 16/10/2020] +: lol
Blue and White Flag Guy
[1:14 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Hahaha EMV is like card tech :3
Alvin
[1:14 pm, 16/10/2020] +: emv is payment tech
[1:14 pm, 16/10/2020] +: lol
Blue and White Flag Guy
[1:14 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Yesh
[1:15 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Disadvantages of Minimum wages
28 July 2019 by Tejvan Pettinger
A minimum wage is a legal minimum for workers. It means workers are guaranteed a certain hourly wage – helping to reduce relative poverty. However, a minimum wage could have potential disadvantages – in particular, there is the risk of creating unemployment as firms cannot afford to employ workers.
“It has always been a mystery to me to understand why a youngster is better off unemployed at $1.60 an hour than employed at $1.25.” – Milton Friedman (1966) “Minimum Wage Rates” Newsweek
1. Unemployment. If labour markets are competitive, a minimum wage could cause unemployment because firms will demand less labour, and higher wages may encourage more workers to supply their labour.
Diagram of Minimum Wage
minwage
In the above diagram, the NMW (Wtu) has caused a fall in employment of Q1-Q2.
The level of real wage unemployment at NMW is Q3-Q2
Firms in labour-intensive industries will be most affected. For example, hairdressers and cleaning companies will see a proportionately more significant increase in their wage bill.
Milton Friedman, a free market economist was critical of minimum wages. In 1966, he wrote a critique of the minimum wage
“Congress has just acted to increase unemployment. It did so by raising the legal minimum-wage rate from $1.25 to $1.60 an hour, effective in 1968, and extending its coverage. The result will be and must be to add to the ranks of the unemployed.”
Milton Friedman (1966) “Minimum Wage Rates” Newsweek
2. Firms may become uncompetitive. In some cases, a higher minimum wage could push up costs causing a firm to go out of business because they may not be able to afford wage costs. This might be a particular problem if the firm is competing in a global market and higher wage costs make them uncompetitive compared to low-wage cost countries. For example, a higher minimum wage may encourage firms to manufacture clothes in China or Taiwan where labour is cheaper than the UK.
3. Cost-push inflation. A minimum wage can cause cost-push inflation. This is because firms face an increase in costs which are likely to be passed on to consumers. This is even more likely if wage differentials are maintained.
4. Black market. A minimum wage may increase the number of people working on the black market so firms can avoid paying the legal minimum.
5. Poorest don’t benefit. A limitation of the minimum wage is that it doesn’t increase the incomes of the lowest income groups. This is because the poorest have to rely on benefits and are therefore not affected by minimum wages.
6. Limited impact on relative poverty. Many who benefit from the minimum wage are second income earners, and therefore the household is unlikely to be below the poverty line. A household with a single income earner just above the minimum wage is likely to be relatively poorer. But they will not benefit from the minimum wage.
See also: Advantages of Minimum Wages
national-minimum-wage-pros-cons
Evaluation of Minimum Wages
[1:16 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
This is the research you are looking for.
[1:21 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
26 Oct 2018 01:38PM (Updated: 26 Oct 2018 11:01PM)
Ricky Lim
Let us objectively put the minimum wage to market test - and see whether it will uplift the people's standard of living or will it cause widespread unemployment if implemented.
Case background :-
- A boss employ 2 workers and pay them $1,500 each per month.
- Earn a profit of $12,000 per year.
Come the minimum wage.
Scenario (1)
Assume minimum wage is set at $1,300 per month.
Outcome :- The boss will employ 2 workers at $1,300 per month each - and let go the 2 current workers.
Boss earn :- additional $4,800 per year = Total profit = $16,800 per year.
So 2 current workers whose skillset of $1,500 per month have to lower their salary expectation to $1,300 per month to get employment
Thus 2 current worker lose - if minimum wage is set below the market price of $1,500.
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
Scenario (2)
Assume minimum wage is set at $2,000 per month - above the market rate.
- The boss employ 2 workers and pay them $1,500 each per month.
- That means the boss got to pay and additional $12,000 per year to the 2 workers.
- Boss will earn 0 profit for the year - due to the minimum wages of $2,000 per month for 2 years.
Result :-
(1) The boss will have to fire one worker and employ only one worker at $2,000 per month - and expect this worker to work 2 person's jobs.
- If this 1 worker cannot do 2 persons job - the boss will also fire him - and employ a more versatile worker in the market at $2,000 per month to do 2 persons' job.
- If not hte boss will invest in robots and only employ one worker at $2,000 per month to do 2 persons' job.
Outcome :- at least 1 worker will lose the job.
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
Scenario (3)
Assume minimum wage is set at $1,500 per month.
- A boss employ 2 workers and pay them $1,500 each per month.
- Earn a profit of $12,000 per year.
Outcome :- Nothing will change to this boss.
Like · Reply · 1m · Edited
Ricky Lim
Summarising the outcome of implementing minimum wages :-
- Implement minimum wage in Scenario 1 and 2 --- will be detrimental to the workers - as many will lose their jobs.
- Imagine 100,000 SMEs cut 1 or 2 staff - that means 100,000 to 200,000 workers will lose their jobs.
Like · Reply · 1m
Ricky Lim
Let us market test the hypothesis of "wage ladder approach peg to productivity" - instead of implementing minimum wages.
Again we take the case background - and use the "wage ladder approach peg to productivity" :-
Case background :-
- A boss employ 2 workers and pay them $1,500 each per month.
- Earn a profit of $12,000 per year.
Boss implement "wage ladder approach peg to productivity" :-
(1) If both workers can bring in additional sales of $500 per month - boss will pay $1,800 per month for each workers.
Outcome :-
- Boss pay $1,800 per month to 2 workers.
- 2 workers get additional sales of $500 per month
- Boss earn $16,800 per year and 2 workers earn $1,800 per month (in wage ladder approach peg to productivity".
(2) Boss now tell the 2 workers, if 2 workers bring in additional sales of $1,000 per month each - boss will pay $2,000 per month for each workers.
Outcome :-
- Boss pay $2,000 per month to 2 workers.
- 2 workers get additional sales of $1,000 per month
- Boss earn $24,000 per year and 2 workers earn $2,000 per month (in wage ladder approach peg to productivity).
Conclusion :-
- Wage ladder approach peg to productivity - will most likely to keep Singaporean workers employed and grow with higher wages peg to productivity.
- Implement minimum wages (with no corresponding increase in productivity) - will result in widespread unemployment in Scenario 1 and 2.
Like · Reply · 1m
[1:24 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Layman explanation of the negative impact of minimum wages - using dollars and cents devoid of economic principles.
[1:30 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Expat come in at a define wage - is not related to minimum wage.
It is a representation of technical skillsets, job specification, job scope, job requirements - that is commensurate with the define salary.
Eg. The average market price of a data center specialist is peg at $7,000.
Then only qualified and certified data center specialist can come in with that salary to do the job - and this is the price where business are willing to offer to get talents of such skillsets.
This is nothing to do with minimum wages.
[1:37 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
All wages must commensurate with productivity.
Wages must not be force fit - and don't provide the economic output befitting the minimum wages.
If the economic output is $800, you don't force people to give you $1300.
That's why, the minimum wages of $1300 is nonsense - devoid of economic fundamental.
Eg. You force your boss to pay you $1300 for selling kachang puteh that fetch $500.
You think the boss Will Keep you or fire you?
[1:43 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
But if you are trained to operate a machine that produce 1000 kachang puteh and bring in $5000, through PWM - then the boss will pay you $1500 - and keep the rest as his profit.
Ken
[1:44 pm, 16/10/2020] +: It is just business, if the workers are to get paid higher we have to accept higher standard of living
[1:58 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
The opposition MPs propose universal minimum wage will cause more widespread unemployment in this trying time - especially impacting the low income wage earners who are the most vulnerable.
Rama
[2:03 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Must not take root irresponsibly!
[2:04 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
I think they are not irresponsible.
They are lacking in competency.
[2:04 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
In governance.
[2:45 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Even though where the much touted economic prof is there.
He fail on the most basic economic theory.
Rama
[2:46 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Disappointed in jamus lim!
Rama
[2:17 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Agree
[2:17 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Proposals must be clear on pros and cons 3suggestions
Ken
[2:22 pm, 16/10/2020] +: To me MW isn’t a problem, the problem is if we willing to pay for the higher cost so people on the bottom wage can live better.
It amazed me that in Canada a garbage collector can earn a decent income, owns a house and wife no need to work and stay as a housewife.
Similar to Iceland and countries with min wage.
At least I don’t need to worry my kids if cannot study can still survive and do decent.
Problem comes with MW is that our country is not big enough to dictate and run economy on our own. Mainly stuff are imported, which most of the lowest wage workers belong to these region. Hence, the transport cost isn’t significant to affect the price.
Having MW for locals only? Business will find all the loop holes to hire the cheapest workers they can find.
Giving both foreign workers and local same MW. Foreign workers will more willing to work longer hours, hence local lose again.
Can propose guide on wages depending on sector, but there are companies with multiple identities, can just register those under different categories. To by pass the wages limit by sector.
In all, MW need more thinking on how to make it happen and prevent some of the issues raised. I would really hope that Singaporean don’t have to worry about livelihood. By somehow give them a more livable wage system.
REACH
[2:26 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Airfares jump after S'pore-Hong Kong travel bubble announcement
The cost of air tickets between Singapore and Hong Kong jumped within 24 hours of the two places unveiling plans for a travel bubble that wouldn't require people to quarantine upon arrival.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/singapore-hong-kong-airfares-jump-on-travel-bubble-plan
REACH
[2:30 pm, 16/10/2020] +: EZ-Link payment, top-up services at 7-Eleven suspended after Wirecard ceases payment services in Singapore
EZ-Link payment and top-up services at 7-Eleven outlets have been suspended after embattled German payments firm Wirecard ceased its payment services in Singapore.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/ez-link-7-eleven-wirecard-payment-top-up-13285734
CQ
[2:31 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I'm actually still waiting for govt to walk the talk and make good on the "you don't need to have a degree to be successful". Many jobs are still filtered out at the paper qualification level and for example legal service, my friend was told that SUSS law was specifically left out of the approved list on purpose.
Rama
[2:32 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Agree
Ana
[2:32 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Agreed!
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[2:45 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Even though where the much touted economic prof is there.
He fail on the most basic economic theory.
Rama
[2:46 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Disappointed in jamus lim!
Lim
[3:21 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Actually many studies conducted by academics have shown that MW does not increase unemployment rate
[3:22 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I think that is where Jamus Lim is coming from
Rama
[3:23 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I see!
[3:24 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
I can tell you that a mee stall that I visit will fire at least 3 helpers if the minimum wage of $1300 is implemented - because they are fetching $1000 each.
[3:26 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Shouldn't it be one helper?
[3:26 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
I think a ticket operator that employ about more than 10 workers ($1000 to $1200) that sell tickets - will fire half his staff in order for his business to be viable.
REACH
[3:27 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Two charged with stealing Budget 2020 grocery vouchers from HDB letterboxes
Read more at https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/two-charged-stealing-budget-2020-grocery-vouchers-hdb-letterboxes
[3:28 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
The mee shop sell all sort of mee and they sell close to hundred bowls a day.
But the rental is very high.
They have more than one shop
Lim
[3:32 pm, 16/10/2020] +: So rental is the reason why we cannot pay the helpers more? Then it seems that the landlord, rather than MW, is the prob here
[3:32 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
One bowl of mee sold for $3.50 to $5.
Drinks $1.50.
You think the owner can pay $1,300 each to 5 helpers?
How many bowl of mee they need to sell to be profitable?
[3:33 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Ingredients cost, electricity, water cost, etc...
Rama
[3:36 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Points noted
Lim
[3:37 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Think from the perspective of the helpers -> would $1000 a month prepare them well for any emergency? E.g. sudden illness
[3:37 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Having $300 more could be very comforting for them
[3:37 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Esp given SG's prices of food and products
[3:37 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Business owner who cannot survive will just fire the workers.
Lim
[3:37 pm, 16/10/2020] +: More competitive businesses will take over
[3:38 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
If business cannot survive you think workers can survive?
[3:39 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
A barber shop use to employ 2 workers.
As the owner need to pay higher salary to the workers, he fire one worker and keep one.
Lim
[3:40 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Case study or hypothetical example?
[3:40 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
All I quote are in my neighborhood.
Lim
[3:41 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Anyway, it is easy to reverse the question. If the workers cannot survive, can the business survive?
[3:42 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I believe the relationship should be mutually beneficial
[3:42 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
That's why PWM make sense.
Not minimum wage.
Lim
[3:43 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Humm, i still don understand. Given that PWM is essentially MW with consensus between the three parties
[3:43 pm, 16/10/2020] +: At least from what little knowledge i have...
[3:43 pm, 16/10/2020] +: But the need for consensus also mean slow implementation across different sectors
[3:44 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
PWM is salary peg to productivity and economic output.
Minimum wage is a force fit blunt tool not peg to economic output.
Lim
[3:45 pm, 16/10/2020] +: MW is also pegged to economic conditions, thats why there could be adjustments from time to time
[3:46 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Sigh...
Pse read all the post from top to bottom.
I don't want to repeat everything all over again.
Lim
[3:46 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I do think that PWM could work better than MW, but just feel that MW has been overly demonised in our society...
Ken
[3:46 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Sadly business will find ways to get around it. Harder but not impossible
Rama
[3:51 pm, 16/10/2020] +: PWM is a better progressive fit than MW.
Lim
[3:52 pm, 16/10/2020] +: The biggest issue of PWM is that it has been shown to be moving very slow in its implementayion
[3:53 pm, 16/10/2020] +: It has been so many but it still only cover three sectors (if i rem correctly)
[3:53 pm, 16/10/2020] +: *so many years
[3:55 pm, 16/10/2020] +: "First introduced eight years ago, PWM covers only three sectors — cleaning, security and landscaping, which combined account for 15 per cent of low-wage workers, defined as the bottom 20 percent of income earners."
Ref: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/commentary/progressive-wage-model-minimum-versus-singapore-low-income-13271802
CQ
[4:03 pm, 16/10/2020] +: https://mothership.sg/2020/10/jurassic-mile-tiktok/?fbclid=IwAR2Y7-7gbx9CcXQ0gWKiXLpzwXotG9zn1_QWeaU7uafEEkOzGmoWIXhV0NI
Sigh... This is why dinosaurs went extinct sia....
Rama
[4:04 pm, 16/10/2020] +: There is cost factor to be considered from businesses and service providers.
REACH
[4:10 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Singapore employers may implement temporary wage cuts to save jobs: National Wages Council
Employers have been given the green light by the National Wages Council to implement temporary wage cuts if it means saving jobs.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/jobs/employers-may-implement-temporary-wage-cuts-to-save-jobs-national-wages-council
[4:12 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
NWC now recommend pay cut.
Oppositions MP want to bulldoze minimum wages....
[4:20 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
More haste less speed.
Wage, jobs, business and economy must be based on economic fundamental.
Cannot anyhow bulldoze just because you want to do it quickly - because it will cause a domino effect later.
It must be done right with pace.
Not gadang Gabo to speed things but bring unintended consequences.
[4:22 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
And if once done wrong, you can't roll back.
[4:22 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Political auction as mentioned by the minister is a real problem with minimum wage.
[4:26 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Eg now we ask why $1300, why not $1500, someone mention $2500.
Some say $2000 better.
How is the $1300 arrive?
Plug from the air?
CQ
[4:21 pm, 16/10/2020] +: isn't this as good as permission to say "yes you can cut wages for yet another round"? many employers have already done one round when CB happened
Rama
[4:22 pm, 16/10/2020] +: In the process of being expanded
[4:22 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 😂😅🤣
Alvin
[4:22 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Not a good advice
CQ
[4:23 pm, 16/10/2020] +: yah lor. wage cut since when got temporary one. you cut is permanent already! it's like cutting your hair. you cannot glue it back. have to wait for it to slowly grow back the same length again, which could be 2 years later
Lim
[4:23 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 😂
Boon
[4:24 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 👍
CQ
[4:25 pm, 16/10/2020] +: eh seriously lah, Cheng Hu... you need to rethink your comms people, they're not doing you any favours.
Alvin
[4:26 pm, 16/10/2020] +: That’s Megan area leh 🤭
Stella
[4:26 pm, 16/10/2020] +: to avoid exploitation and abuse of G's good intention, G should have guidelines to prevent profitable employers to cut staff salary for more profits rather than for survival purposes.
Alvin
[4:27 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Hence why I say not good advice
CQ
[4:27 pm, 16/10/2020] +: exactly! that headline is a blanket permission that it's free for all to slash. of course it's unprofitable, the bosses get first bite and of course they take the biggest bite
Alvin
[4:27 pm, 16/10/2020] +: SME bosses are notorious for doing this
CQ
[4:27 pm, 16/10/2020] +: yup!
Alvin
[4:28 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Say company fallen on hard times can’t give bonuses next month see them change new car
CQ
[4:29 pm, 16/10/2020] +: SME bosses are the first to complain when cost go up, and the first to jump on the bandwagon to cut costs. but also the first to bite off a bigger share of the pie for themselves. and like Alvin said, say cannot give bonus but then next month change new car
WilsonLeong
[4:29 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Without the boss, the staff is going to go.
Valli
[4:31 pm, 16/10/2020] +: It should start with the Management taking a bigger salary cut first .
CQ
[4:36 pm, 16/10/2020] +: but they will never, cos everyone wants to be a fat cat. and that's why there will always be an issue of people being paid below living wage because bosses will always want to pay themselves more and more each year "because cost of living go up". of course lah, change car from toyota to lexus to audi to lambourgini, house change from 4-room to condo to landed, of course your cost of living keep going up. but what about the staff? they're also living in the same world and having to pay for necessities, ask you to pay them $300 more only also kaopeh kaobu.
REACH
[4:39 pm, 16/10/2020] +: [Sent by Gov.sg – 16 Oct]
As of 12pm, MOH has preliminarily confirmed 1 new case of locally transmitted COVID-19 infection.
Based on investigations so far, the case resides in a dormitory and there are no new cases in the community.
In addition, there are 8 imported cases who had been placed on Stay-Home Notice upon arrival in Singapore. In total, there are 9 new cases of COVID-19 infection in Singapore today.
MOH will share further updates in its press release that will be issued later tonight.
go.gov.sg/moh16octupdate
Rama
[4:41 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 😡😠😂😅🤣😨😱
Ken
[4:46 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Depends on the boss is for money for having the company to have jobs for others.
Most company are for money. They have risk and build from nothing. Shoulder everything if they fail. In the end everyone for themselves no one is so noble to have a company so that their employees get well paid 😅
[4:47 pm, 16/10/2020] +: When no business will the worker say can pay me lesser so the business can continue? 😅
CQ
[4:48 pm, 16/10/2020] +: aiyah, the reality is that businesses are for making money. you have very few people that would set up a business out of the goodness of their hearts, just so that they can provide a job to others, and if that was really the case, then why pay them below living wage right?
Rama
[4:49 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Yes
[4:50 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
You got the dynamic right.
Boss sweat to win business to survive and bring in profit.
He inherit all the risk.
Workers just work and complain about pay.
When month end come, salary land into their bank account.
But if boss no business, no money come in, he got to pay workers salary, pay other expenses or pay bank loan.
Boss always cannot sleep at night to ensure his business is viable.
Ken
[4:50 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Even if management down their pay, you think they are willling?
It’s cause they do it so the people below them won’t react if they cut them too.
Cutting management is really just a PR move in the end
Rama
[4:51 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Yes
Ken
[4:53 pm, 16/10/2020] +: MW topic in the end is the society willingness to give up the comfort of more money for others to live better.
If no one is willing in general money don’t come from the air. Have to come from someone. Business sure want earn money not less if not pointless.
Government can’t be up the salary from no where.. up tax? Up income tax so can balance up? Who willing deep down everyone know
[4:53 pm, 16/10/2020] ☸️ Danny 心:
Last time my boss always tell us.
You all happy happy, month end come, I drop the money into your bank account.
But I everyday worry where to collect the money from the customers to pay your salary.
You see every month my hair drop thinking of money.
CQ
[4:54 pm, 16/10/2020] +: but when company is making money, does it get distributed to the staff or boss takes all?
Ken
[4:56 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Not all business are willing... and not all employee are worthy. But if you give one don’t give the others then how?
KPI is one way to give the more deserving, be it they work better or have better relationships with their bosses.
I know of companies that does share with their employee but not many companies are made the same.
[4:56 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Like if your mother company is from overseas the main profit will channel back to HQ
[4:57 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Or if the company is huge, they channel profit to the companies that made losses so that they can survive. But those are not up to us.
CQ
[4:59 pm, 16/10/2020] +: the bigger companies are fine, but it's the SMEs that tend to be the problem. when the profit is thin, they say business no good, small bonus. when times are good, not like the bonus and increments reflect that.
Lim
[5:00 pm, 16/10/2020] +: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/study-finds-1379-a-month-needed-to-meet-basic-living-standard-for-single-elderly
Ken
[5:02 pm, 16/10/2020] +: To be truthful to ourselves, if we aren’t paid well.
How come many Singaporean can travel overseas for leisure. Don’t consider the low wages ones. I have known people from many countries traveling is only for the rich or very well educated.
Of course money no one will anyone think is enough. Being contented with what we have is never easy. 🤷🏻♂️
Include me haha.
Lim
[5:03 pm, 16/10/2020] +: That's why recently got the FIRE movement -> https://www.aia.com.sg/en/life-matters/experiencing-life/fire-movement-explained-here-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-latest-retirement-trend.html
Ken
[5:06 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 🤣🤣🤣
Next time you boss you tell me if you will do the same if you have a chance
[5:07 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Why pay more if they don’t expect it, and even if pay more if company in trouble again will they willing to take pay cut? Company spend so much money to invest in a person for work, will you return the company for the training you gain?
[5:10 pm, 16/10/2020] +: We gain work experience, when we move on 10 to 20% jump if you are good. Those are from experience we gain from on the job.
Mistake we made, FnB (wrong order), extra man power to train to ensure you can do the job, send for course, etc.
For me if you don’t think you are paid what you are worth just move on. The business can’t keep you then just move.
[5:12 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Company keep some employees low also to control cost. Even if they are good pay can’t keep increase as you work longer. Not realistic as you won’t get even better over time. Not all jobs are the same. So this is only for certain industry. Where skills don’t increase after a short period of time.
Dan
[5:14 pm, 16/10/2020] +: This group of lowly paid workers are often under-represented, and as now we can see, in this chatgroup. I dunno why but my best guess is 1) not that highly educated. 2) focus is mainly on their own survival, rather than national affairs.
CQ
[5:16 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 🤣🤣🤣 i'm one of those who cannot be boss. i'm too soft-hearted already, and honestly, too stupid and easily duped to be fighting with the snakes in the business world. 🤭
Ken
[5:16 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Rest already not enough time Liao..
and even voice out will it change much? 🤷🏻♂️
Mindset of most lowly paid workers and most Singaporean... complaint but got use mah? 🤣
Dan
[5:16 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I'm not them. I dunno how they feel. But now they have a chance to get a wage enough to live in Singapore. But we are saying because of Covid, this is not the time, because business is in bad shape.
Ken
[5:16 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Next time you hire I work for you make sure you split Hor
Dan
[5:16 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I dunno.
Ken
[5:17 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 😛
Dan
[5:17 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Give u min wage $1300.
Ken
[5:17 pm, 16/10/2020] +: I am from a low wage family.. I understand a bit... but not on the rental that end so hard to understand totally also
[5:18 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Can when I 65 I come work for you 😄
CQ
[5:18 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 🤣 i always split, but the profit is gonna be like 5 cents? you're gonna just get 2 and a half cents 🤣
Ken
[5:18 pm, 16/10/2020] +: 👍
[5:27 pm, 16/10/2020] +: Without paying for the house.. lol I used to survive on $600 to $800.
Possible... but that was like 10 years ago...
As you have friends social gathering etc... 🤷🏻♂️, Netflix, high data for phone, cab around, restaurant 😅 when it becomes a habit yes hard to drop back down the standard of living.
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