REACH 268 - View of having vaccination-differentiated measures such as regular testing at workplaces (SK)
25 Aug 2021 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:58 am, 25/08/2021] +REACH: Dear contributors,
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[10:00 am, 25/08/2021] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
All employers are encouraged to consider adopting the COVID-19 "vaccinate or regular test" regime as company policy for existing employees and new hires, the Ministry of Manpower, National Trades Union Congress and Singapore National Employers Federation as well as the Ministry of Health (MOH) said in an advisory on Monday (Aug 23).
As part of this, they may implement vaccination-differentiated measures in the workplace, including requiring medically eligible but unvaccinated employees to bear coronavirus-related expenses, such as for their swab tests.
π¬ What do you think of having vaccination-differentiated measures such as regular testing at workplaces?
The "vaccinate or regular test" regime, which requires unvaccinated workers in selected sectors to be tested for COVID-19 twice a week using antigen rapid tests, will start for selected sectors on Oct 1.
People working in the healthcare sector, eldercare sector and settings with children 12 years and below will be covered by the regime. Workers in industries that interact with customers in high-risk mask-off settings, such as at Singapore's borders or COVID-19 frontline work, will also be subject to the requirements.
There were a total of 111 new locally transmitted COVID-19 cases reported on Tuesday (24 Aug). Of the local cases, 78 were linked to previous cases and 24 were already in quarantine when they tested positive.
π https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/covid-19-vaccinate-or-regular-test-employers-employees-2130506
π https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/covid-19-bugis-junction-cluster-locally-transmitted-cases-moh-aug-24-2131881
π https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/digitalisation-important-enabler-recovery-retail-sector-covid-19-2132316
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[10:08 am, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Now that Pfizer is FDA approved we can make that vaccine mandatory. I also think non invasive swab tests are a good thing in the workplace to monitor spread of infection.
[10:08 am, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Looking forward to when the under 12s can be vaccinated, then I will feel much safer for my family.
[10:09 am, 25/08/2021] +Elena Woo: New clusters and more cases due to easing of measures? Wonder if we end up like India too with the numbers going out of control?
[10:10 am, 25/08/2021] +Elena Woo: Yes. I am looking forward to this as well.
[10:14 am, 25/08/2021] +Vana: Can expect dormitory clusters to rise again.
Have to be cautious on this.
Indirectly local cases will rise further again in essential services.
As can be observed now that vaccinated people are tested positive.
[10:14 am, 25/08/2021] +Caleb: Think with Delta variant, those work in f&b frontline ect still need to do FET (Fast and Easy Testing) after 1 Oct.
Regardless vaccinated or not
[10:48 am, 25/08/2021] +An fan: muscle injection and vein injection comparison. I know all doctors are well trained, but just want to share this. The last line tells how to avoid vein injection.
[10:49 am, 25/08/2021] +Elena Woo: The 0 to 11 years old quite a lot leh. And we still moving to endemic?
[10:51 am, 25/08/2021] +An fan: There are a few figures there. For those under 12, All mild symptoms no need Oxygen or ICU
[10:53 am, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: If it is research article please share not the picture.
If not will ignore as fake news
[10:58 am, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927# I found the research article
[11:06 am, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: The impact factor is relatively Low. Such research not accept by big Journal… so not sure why..
[11:08 am, 25/08/2021] +An fan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuyAtvwP2H4&feature=youtu.be
[11:13 am, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: What do you think of having vaccination-differentiated measures such as regular testing at workplaces?
Firstly, I think it's a good idea or strategy but shouldn't be enforced as a mandate (will be explained below). However, employers are encouraged to ensure that their staff is fully vaccinated before returning to office or workplaces, especially those in front line and service crew dealing with the public in general.
Secondly, regular testing should be the main criteria for retail and front facing roles, regardless if private or public sector.
Thirdly, such policies will blatantly discriminate those who haven't gotten the vaccine. This will in turn drive a wedge between both groups of people and likely turn them into extremists which won't be a good thing. A more gentle hybrid policy should serve us better.
My 2.14 cents
[11:19 am, 25/08/2021] +An fan: Should we do regular test for all? Using the kind of test equipment used by parliament? By breathing? Vaccinated or unvaccinated doesn’t make difference in getting infected. According to MOH statistics.
[11:21 am, 25/08/2021] +Ben: What is your interpretation of this?
[11:25 am, 25/08/2021] +An fan: Take 40-60. 33 unvaccinated, 33/218*100% is 15.13%, similar to population vaccinated rate. This is my interpretation.
[11:27 am, 25/08/2021] +An fan: If partially vaccinated included then it is another story. That is why Same figures may draw different conclusion, favour to his/her thoughts.
[11:27 am, 25/08/2021] +REACH: S'pore must chart own path in reopening, living with Covid-19: Lawrence Wong
"We have good vaccination outcomes but we still want them to be better, especially among our seniors, and we do not want to take the risk of having huge outbreaks that will overwhelm our hospital system," he told a forum at the Nanyang Technological University on Tuesday (Aug 24).
More https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/minister-spore-must-chart-own-path-in-reopening-living-with-covid-19-0
[11:30 am, 25/08/2021] +~RH: I understand the reason for such continued vigilance but employees who r not vacc may have their own reasons for not doing so.
As such, the cost of the FET shd not be fully borne by the employee alone, but I suggest tt this be co-shared w employer 50/50.
I understand the mental and emotional worries tt unvacc ppl hv... As I was once in the same position.
Altho I m now fully vacc, I still feel the pain of having to decide to vacc or not due to uncertainty over the side effects as I hv multiple allergies.
So, we shd not discriminate but be sympathetic.
To make the un-vaccinated employee bear the full costs of the FET is unfair.
It is indirectly 'forcing' the employee to quit or get vaccinated!
Tt wud be pure discrimination!
So, 50/50 is a fair deal. But one must also take into account the employee's salary ... will he be able to afford paying for FET in the long term?
This pandemic --> endemic ... Not gg away for at least another 5 years?
[11:31 am, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Breathalyzers wud be most preferable.
[11:37 am, 25/08/2021] +An fan: The latest 62 cases in dormitories, all are full vaccinated.
[11:43 am, 25/08/2021] +James Zhi Hao: I agree with this. Testing before entering offices (e.g. for the week) will give assurance to the employees that they aren't carrying the virus into the workplace. This helps protects those in the household who are not yet vaccinated.
[11:45 am, 25/08/2021] +James Zhi Hao: On a broader consideration, perhaps should consider more flexibility in work arrangements especially for those who have child caring responsibilities during this COVID-19, bearing in mind this adds on to the mental burden, on top of existing stress from COVID-19
[11:49 am, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: To top it all up, I still maintain my stance on WFH as default. Don't give 50% return to workplace etc as companies might not care and might not follow. You will have a hard time enforcing the rules and will likely get more clusters of few hundred cases daily again.
[11:53 am, 25/08/2021] +Vana: I agree with this
[0:00 pm, 25/08/2021] +Vana: Agree
[0:01 pm, 25/08/2021] +James Zhi Hao: Perhaps an alternative is to get the companies to submit a plan to ensure that they've thought clearly of a plan to protect their employees. Not sure if this is mandatory at the moment
[0:09 pm, 25/08/2021] +Suma pamu: +1
[0:12 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Israel 3rd booster shot show the reproduction number is R0 < 1 against Delta variants.
This means Delta variants is not able to spread in the community.
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/israels-covid-19-vaccine-boosters-050411561.html
[0:13 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/israel-covid-19-booster-shots-delta-variant-2132356
Look like Israel is rolling out 3rd booster shot to all population (now over 30s) - and sign shows that it is taming Delta variants.
[0:13 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Indeed it has... I'm already having a hard time trying to get my friend who's vaccine-hesitant to get vaccinated. When I forwarded that article to him, he said the govt is so pushy about it that it's awaken the rebel instinct. The more govt want him to jab, all the more he won't jab. I guess that's one of the "extremists" that you're talking about..
[0:14 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/us-food-and-drug-administration-gives-full-approval-to-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine US Food and Drug Administration gives full approval to Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine on 23 Aug 2021.
[0:14 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/covid-19-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-us-fda-full-approval-2131206
Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine gains full US regulatory approval.
Many US state government and private companies will mandate compulsory vaccination.
[0:14 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/us-grants-pfizer-covid-vaccine-133826924.html
US Food and Drug Administration on Monday fully approved the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid vaccine, a move that triggered a new wave of vaccine mandates as the Delta variant batters the country.
[0:14 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/us-infectious-disease-expert-anthony-fauci-says-expects-more-covid-19-vaccine With full vaccine approval, US could control Covid-19 by spring 2022: Fauci.
[0:16 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Yes, I fully agree!
[0:16 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: That’s why a more tolerant and hybrid policy is better
[0:17 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Most Covid-19 deaths in August arose from infections earlier in the month: Ong Ye Kung
Most deaths this month linked to Covid-19 arose from infections that had happened earlier in the month, when there were more daily cases and fewer people were vaccinated, said Health Minister Ong Ye Kung.
More: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/most-covid-19-deaths-in-august-arose-from-infections-earlier-in-the-month-ong-ye-kung
[0:17 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Today Ong Ye Kung directly address the number of elderly unvaccinated death.
He say elderly with existing medical conditions - all the more should get vaccinated.
I suspect he may eventually do something - as US FDA has already granted full approval for Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.
[0:17 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: I also believe we shouldn’t be too hardline hence WFH as default
[0:17 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Yeah... I'm at my wits end talking to him already. Pek chek is an understatement..
[0:17 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Discussion on Mandatory Vaccination - in view of US FDA granted full approval on Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine on 23 Aug 2021.
Part 1 - Mandatory Vaccination for Elderly
My close friend comments :-
Mandate means there has to be a consequence for not vaccinating.
What would that be?
Elderly reaching a certain age die quite easily.
Forcing them can result in unintended deaths. Very controversial
My comments of Mandatory Vaccination:-
1. Issue a letter to Elderly to vaccinate by "a certain date". If not done, a doctor-police team will visit the elderly at the house by a certain date to mandate vaccination.
2. Police with a doctor and a nurse team visit the elderly to vaccinate as per the law if the elderly fail to vaccinate by "a cerain date".
3. If the eldely willing to vaccinate at the house, they don't need to go to a designated place away from home until they get vaccinated.
3. This is what I envisage in a mandatory vaccination.
My 2nd comments :-
1. I know people will start asking questions what is the scenario of a mandatory vaccination.
2. The above is what I have thought of.
My 3rd comments :-
1. Anyway I am not so sure of whether elderly will die easily when undergo Mandatory Vaccination - because I saw some pictures and videos of a doctor and nurse team visiting bed-ridden elderly.
2.The doctor after checking the elderly - administer the jab on the elderly - and then wait for half an hour to ensure the elderly are ok before they leave.
3. Heard such house vaccination visit results very good.
4. Hundreds of such arrangements have been done for such house vaccination visit and alot more doctors and nurses volunteer to provide such house vaccination service.
5. Thus I envisage extending such vaccination to mandatory vaccination - but with police or certis guard presence as authority to administer the law of compulsory vaccination.
My 4th comments:-
1. Also in nursing home and old age home, doctors and nurses do mass vaccination on elderly with medical conditions.
2. Results also very good.
3. So I think if mandatory vaccination are done carefully with care, comfort and yet with authority (the presence of a police or certis guard) - we may be able to conduct a successful vaccination on the elderly and protect them from covid).
4. This is the carrot and stick approach.
My 5th comments:-
1. I am glad you ask this question.
2. Because I have thought it over and over again to ensure it must be done with:-
a. Care
b. Comfort and concerns
c. Reassuring to the elderly that the vaccines are safe
d. Assertiveness through Authority (the presence of police to represent the law)
e. Compassion to protect the elderly from the danger of covid - even though it seems harsh but actually deep in our heart - is meant to protect the lives of the elderly.
[0:18 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Part 3 - Mandatory Vaccination for Immuno-Compromised or allergic to vaccines People
1. For people allergic to mRNA after 1st shot - MOH through doctor to advise should a 2nd shot of mRNA or non-mRNA such as Sinovac or Sinopharm or Nonovax be given.
2. For people allergic to mRNA before 1st shot - MOH through doctor to advise should non-mRNA such as Sinovac or Sinopharm or Nonovax be given for 2 shots.
Note :- If Part 1, 2 and 3 are conducted - 100% mass vaccination will be achieved for Singapore.
[0:20 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Part 2 - non-elderly adults
Current government efforts to get workers vaccinate or pay for regular test - I support.
[0:21 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: Yes just give him some space and just be there if he wants to rant. Most of the time it’ll be 80-20 rule. So expect 20% of the people you know to be unvax but that doesn’t mean we should ostracize them.
[0:25 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/though-young-healthy-unvaccinated-father-140829963.html
Though young and healthy, unvaccinated father dies of COVID
[0:25 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/gop-leader-fought-against-vaccine-090848476.html
Anti-vaxx GOP leader who fought against vaccines die from covid.
[0:25 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/why-the-vaccinated-are-worried-about-covid-19-breakthrough-infections Breakthrough cases among the vaccinated occur because unvaccinated are mixed around with the vaccinated in indoor events, all don't wear masks.
[0:25 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/radio-host-regretted-vaccine-skepticism-053329445.html
Radio host who regretted vaccine skepticism dies of COVID
[0:25 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Yah lor... I don't dare to push too hard also cos he's totally capable of unfriending me...
[0:27 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Don't vaccinate means - very high chance to succumb to serious illness, oxygen support, ICU or death.
And high chances of long covid with multiple organ damages eg. Lungs, heart, brain, blood clot, stroke, dementia - very painful life
[0:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Agree
[0:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: That said, that friend of mine is hesitant because his aunt's goddaughter recently took the leap and got the jab. Waited the 30 mins, was fine, went home, and 1 hour later just dropped dead. The family is upset that it's again one of those "no apparent link that it's caused by vaccine", but this incident just added to his hesitancy as well.
[0:37 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/new-york-city-mandates-covid-19-vaccine-public-school-teachers-staff-2131291
New York City mandates COVID-19 vaccine for public school teachers, staff
[0:37 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/indonesia-covid-19-jakarta-herd-immunity-vaccination-jakarta-2130361
Indonesia official says COVID-19 vaccines help Jakarta reach 'herd immunity'.
[0:38 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/johor-covid-19-vaccination-teachers-sultan-ibrahim-crown-prince-2130646
Johor sultan tells teachers not to place students in danger by rejecting COVID-19 vaccination
[0:39 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/nurse-issues-warning-against-covid-165810731.html
Nurse issues warning against Covid misinformation after her anti-vaxxer mother dies of virus aged 57
[0:40 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/trump-booed-own-rally-finally-050947300.html
Trump quietly Vaccinated in Dec 2020 but tell no one about it.
[0:42 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/johor-crown-prince-teachers-education-director-reject-covid-19-vaccine-2129151 Johor crown prince summon all the teachers who refuse to vaccinate to see him. He must be conducting a pep-talk to persuade all to vaccinate.
[0:42 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/australia-pm-says-covid-19-groundhog-day-end-when-more-vaccinated-2129991 Australia endemic plan by ramping up vaccination before it can open up.
[0:44 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.straitstimes.com/world/torontos-hospital-network-to-sack-employees-unvaccinated-at-end-of-october Canada sack healthcare workers who refuse to vaccinate.
[0:47 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-cases-soar-more-044853781.html
US many States ICUs nearing capacity contributed by many unvaccinated people.
[0:47 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/covid-vaccines-prevented-nearly-100-133115802.html
Covid vaccines have prevented nearly 100,000 deaths in England, official figures suggest.
[0:47 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.straitstimes.com/world/israeli-doctors-find-severe-covid-19-breakthrough-cases-mostly-in-older-sicker-patients Israeli doctors find severe Covid-19 breakthrough cases mostly in older, sicker patients.
[0:50 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: That's because all the dormitories are vaccinated. 62 seems very low actually, considering the thousands of people we have in dormitories.
[0:51 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Israel 3rd booster shot show the reproduction number is R0 < 1 against Delta variants.
This means Delta variants is not able to spread in the community.
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/israels-covid-19-vaccine-boosters-050411561.html
[0:52 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
That means Delta variants can go into remission if R0 < 1.
That's 1 infected person will spread to < 1 person
[0:54 pm, 25/08/2021] +An fan: Yeah you are right. But we can see regular test for fully vaccinated people is necessary too.
[1:03 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
If you don't vaccinate, you pay for the regular test. What's the problem?
You expect other taxpayers to pay unvaccinated regular tests?
[1:05 pm, 25/08/2021] +Caleb: I think he is saying those who have vaccinated. Still need to go for test and gov/employer have to pay for it.
[1:10 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: I totally empathise w your fren.
Public & gov 'pressure' in the form of discriminatory measures adds to the mental & emotional stress.
It took me months to come to terms w it b4 I went for vacc.
Had to psych myself up way b4 tt.
Tt is why we shd be more tolerant of those not vacc ...
Of course, ther wl still be those 'rebel' types - but then again, they feel insecure, tt is why they rebel?
[1:12 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Exactly, which is why I don't want to force him either. It's just that if they do end up making vaccination mandatory, I really don't know how he's going to react.
[1:14 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Many vaccination for dangerous pandemic are mandatory.
How he react?
[1:18 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: He'll just do nothing.
Tt is his only choice.
Tt said, it just means he is restricted in the kind if activities he can partake in.
Depending on his age & lifestyle, he wl hv to make the choice most suitable for himself.
Nothing tt we third party can say nor do wl help.
Best is for him to chk w his doctor & flw his doc's advice.
I flw mine... π
[1:20 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Those which he received as kids, obvs he bobian lah. He's OK with vaccination as a whole, so he's not the antivax, all natural living thingy. He's just hesitant with the MRNA ones because "you don't know what long term side effects there are". He's OK with considering the traditional ones like Sino and Nova, but Sino out of stock and Nova not in yet. So he feels its unconscionable to push people into a corner when options are limited.
[1:22 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
As long as he jab.
[1:22 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Yah, he's pigheaded that way. He's happy to be alone and stay indoors. But that's why he's pissed that even the workplace would implement the poke-or-poke strategy.
[1:22 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: I feel the same ...
Shd not push ppl into a corner.
I hv frens on q list for Sinovac. ... All the way to Sep / Oct.
Ask yr fren to quickly get in the q .
[1:22 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Aiyah, he say "consider". I was happy that he would even "consider"
[1:23 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Tt is why I'm for the breathalyzer ...
More humane... π
[1:23 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
People can wait.
Virus don't wait
[1:25 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: U wan suicide rate to go up next?
I believe it is impt for a person to hv their mindset ready & be psychologically prep.
If one is not ready to accept, then anything tt can go wrong, may go wrong.
Then tt person wl say "I told you so. "
[1:26 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: But partly because SG has controlled it so well that we would generally know of only 1 or 2 within our social circles that would've kena covid or kena QO because of close contact. So you do lose that sense of urgency somewhat. You see other people's houses burning but not yours burning what. So you don't feel the need to fire-proof or standby a fire extinguisher
[1:26 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Agree
[1:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Yeah. I think his aunt's goddaughter was his "you see?? I told you so" moment...
[1:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Aiyo!
She shd be positive, not pour cold water!!! π³
[1:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: And I totally agree with you, if pushed to an extreme, some people (like my friend) might say "I'd rather die or go jail if push comes to shove".
[1:28 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Tell that to the virus.
Don't infect people, people will commit suicide.
Until they are mentally prepared to jab then infect.
[1:29 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Well, the aunt's goddaughter died 1 hour after the jab..... The family is kicking themselves for convincing her to get jabbed.
[1:35 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Government can adopt the suntze art of war.
Divide and conquer.
Stratified strategy according to group psychic.
Use combination of soft and hard tactics.
Use persuasion, coaxing intermix with rules and stick.
There are thousands of ways to break the psychological aspects of people.
Hence having psychologists on board to break the resistance of different types of people is vital to our successful 100% vaccination program.
I have observed how psychologists handle harden criminals, terrorists, mental I'll patients, stubborn people, ideological harden people.
There are various ways and techniques and patterns to breakthrough all various types of people.
I am very confident our government can achieve 100% Vaccination.
But leave all options, techniques, pattern on the table and don't leave anything out.
It will be useful handling different groups of people.
[1:36 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Get a forensic report how she die.
[1:37 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Including delinquent, boys and girls in the lockout.
[1:43 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Including suicidal people.
Including violent people.
[2:20 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: They did. Just the standard CP failure, aka no apparent reason. That's why they're so upset. To them, her last proximal event of significance was the vaccine. So understandably, the lack of explanation for her sudden demise is uncomfortable.
[2:22 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
This is coincidental death.
MOH and health authorities worldwide did not see an uptick in death vis a vis vaccination.
[2:22 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
My close friend comments :-
List of reasons people gave to me so far (for not vaccinating):
- antibodies wane off after a few months. Later got to jab again. So do it as late as possible
- my body special lah, wait and see first
- so many types of vaccines, I want to understand them first
- drugs like ivermectin can treat covid. Why jab something so new?
- I won't allow something created in such a rush to be pushed into me
- my mother has so many conditions, and she's demented. Who dare to decide for her?
- no good lah, can avoid, avoid.
- my son is only twenty-something, what happens if there are late effects?
- did you see social media? Even doctors, researchers scientists have concerns over mRNA vaccines.
[2:23 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Yes I know that. But try explaining that to the grieving family.... Even if they "Okok", it just means they're tired of listening to the non-answer.
[2:24 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Let the psychologist handle it.
[2:25 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: The psychologist will only deal with the immediate family and they're already vaccinated. Not my friend who's twice removed and already vaccine-hesitant to begin with.
[2:25 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
My part 1 will work.
[2:26 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Which part 1?
[2:30 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: some people would rather die or face jail.
[2:31 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Let the psychologist handle it.
They will find the right key to unlock such group.
[2:32 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Their lock is death.
The key is undeath.
[3:14 pm, 25/08/2021] +Anne: Feedback from my BFF:
1. What is the purpose behind / why is there a need for "encouraging employers" to adopt vaccination differentiated measures. So if docs say that they can vaccinate despite allergy or sensitivity but something adverse happens, who pays? Is it as automatic a process as "adopting vaccine differentiated measures"?
2. This is to keep the unvaccinated safe? Or to keep the vaccinated safe? Unvaccinated should know their bodies well enough and be given a choice as long as they have reached the age of reason. Yes, they are taking responsibility for themselves. Vaccinated? Then what was the vaccine for again? π€ Still need to mask, social distance and can still catch covid from both vaccinated and unvaccinated? π€π€π€
3. LKY and pioneering leaders worked so hard to build a harmonious population, regardless of race, language or religion. And now there is a new social segregation that is ironically promoted by the government - vaccinated and non-vaccinated. Right after National Day too. Does this promote harmony within the nation or are we wanting a homogenous population?
4. Ethically, some people cannot take the vaccine so they are relying on their sensibilities and immunities to keep them safe. Shouldn't they be allowed to exercise their basic human rights?
Btw CNN reported efficacy of Pfizer against Delta variant is 3 months!!! Viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated who catch covid are the same. Yet days later, FDA approved Pfizer...
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/30/health/breakthrough-infection-masks-cdc-provincetown-study/index.html
[3:18 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Vaccinate versus Unvaccinate.
2. 4 billion dose worldwide have been vaccinated - and protecting themselves and their Countries.
So the talk about experimental drugs - fearful of vaccine harm - is overhype by those who are anti-vaxx, fear of vaccines based on unfounded fear - cannot stand water.
3. Unvaccinated people has caused tremendous strain on their Countries :-
a. Economy lockdown, business loss, job loss.
b. Government have to use taxpayer money from the reserves or incur huge debt to fund the business, jobs and the Economy.
c. Hospitalisation resources totally overwhelm by covid patients who refuse to vaccinate due to unfounded, misguided fear or plain anti-vaxx - and deprive other people who have other medical conditions - without access to treatment.
d. Heavy budget need to set aside to treat and subsidise those unvaccinated on covid if infected.
4. Thus there are no reasons why Government, Businesses, and Community who have vaccinated to tolerate unvaccinated to bogged the Whole Country down, the Whole Economy down, causing job losses, students cannot go for lessons, people lose their social interaction having to stay at home.
5. Because other than mRNA vaccines (Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna), there are so many non-mRNA vaccines out there eg. Sinovac, Sinopharm, Norovax and so many others.
There is one bound to be suitable to the people - who are afraid of the vaccines. The important thing is that the person must taking the resolved to vaccinate to protect themselves, their loved ones and the Community.
6. The vaccinated are part of the solutions and not part of the problem.
7. The unvaccinated are part of the problem but not part of the solution.
8. Thus if the unvaccinated are imposing heavy burden on the Country, on the Economy, on the Community - privileges must not be given to those unvaccinated who stubbornly, or foolishly ledge on to misinformed, misguided or unfounded fear against vaccines.
9. Because the majority with a leap of faith have get themselves vaccinated and get the Country and Economy going - while the unvaccinated are pulling everyone down.
So don't expect the majority to give face to the unvaccinated --- and have the cheek to demand privileges.
[3:18 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Many countries are getting tough with those unvaccinated.
US, UK, EU, Israel, Middle East and some Asia Pacific countries.
We should tighten our screw further on those unvaccinated and not let up on vaccination.
Don't need to give face to those unvaccinated - because they are doing our country, our economy and our community a disservice.
[3:20 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Go ahead copy more such anti-vaxx messages from the anti-vaxx blogs.
[3:28 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/malaysias-anti-vaxxers-are-fishing-for-fake-digital-certificates Malaysia getting tough with anti-vaxx group faking digital vaccination certificates.
[3:35 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
To summarise, Health Authorities and Government all over the World - are losing patience with the anti-vaxx group - and poise to get tough with the anti-vaxx group - who derail the vaccination program from saving more lives and disrupt the reopening of the Economy causing more business failure and job loss.
[3:36 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: Rightfully so
[3:40 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: So....
How do u differentiate ...
Those who are Anti-Vax
vs
Those who genuinely cannot take the vacc due to medical reasons not to do so?
[3:40 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Read part 3.
[3:41 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Where?
[3:45 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Just quoting an example.
My niece got her face swollen after the 1st Pfizer jab being a frontline staff.
After recovery she wants to sign up for the 2nd jab - but MOH say cannot and wait.
I told my brother why not let her take Sinovac as the 2nd jab to be save.
Both my niece and her father prefer mRNA vaccines despite the allergy as they are more effective.
I say better wait for the MOH instructions as MOH is currently studying what will be the next best step for such allergies people.
So they are now waiting.
[3:47 pm, 25/08/2021] +Anne: My BFF asked me to add in one more point:
In Singapore, there are hardly any anti vaxxers bacause all of us have been jabbed for BCG etc when young. I believe many are uncomfortable with the covid vaccine because it is only authorised and now for Pfizer approved by FDA for emergency use and is of a novel technology. There is no long term safety data available and on the contrary many of the people who are resistant do personally know directly or indirectly people who have suffered the adverse reactions from the vaccine.
[3:47 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
US FDA give the full and final approval on Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine on 23 Aug 2021.
[3:48 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/covid-19-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-us-fda-full-approval-2131206
Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine gains full US regulatory approval.
Many US state government and private companies will mandate compulsory vaccination.
[3:49 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
MOH speech on Mandatory Vaccination.
Currently, not possible to make vaccination compulsory because the vaccines are still under emergency approval.
Upon granted full and final approval, Countries around the world will consider making vaccination mandatory as countries are moving towards endemic.
https://youtu.be/I_6K59FaOZE
[3:54 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Looks like it will be the no differentiation route for the non vaccinated
[3:55 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
No need differentiation if 100% vaccination.
Differentiated treatment is only a process.
100% vaccination is the end goal - back to pre-pandemic state.
[3:56 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
And all obstacles to the end-goal must be cleared.
[4:01 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Danny, think we know your view on mandatory vaccination. Let's focus on practical workplace issues
[4:02 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
That's part 2.
[4:05 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Sorry, you have many postings, so I'm sure I'll miss your point re practical workplace issue on differentiated approach. Your main point being?
[4:07 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Great, thank you
[4:08 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: How, do you think, we as a nation can mitigate the appearance of being unfairly treating the none vaccinated when we require testing at workplace?
[4:11 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.straitstimes.com/world/torontos-hospital-network-to-sack-employees-unvaccinated-at-end-of-october Canada sack healthcare workers who refuse to vaccinate.
[4:12 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Do you think sacking will pass scrutiny of the courts or MOM tribunal
[4:12 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/apple-stores-to-require-masks-for-shoppers-staff-google-facebook-mandate-covid Google and Facebook mandate covid vaccination for all its staff.
Unvaccinated staff not allowed to step into the office.
Big enterprises getting tough on unvaccinated staff.
[4:13 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So we choose regular test versus sacking.
Which one is tougher?
[4:14 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Thanks. Let's consider how these apply to Singapore.
Costs of regular testing will be borne by the relevant employees, right?
[4:14 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Why not pose this questions to many Western countries like US, UK, Canada, EU and many other countries.
They are adopting the same approach.
[4:14 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: I am not MFA, don't have the capacity
[4:15 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Yes this is the differentiated treatment adopted by many countries.
Singapore is just one of them
[4:15 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: All have different legislations, I am asking about our potential and imminent impact here
[4:16 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
The imminent impact is to get everyone vaccinated to prevent public health safety from overwhelming the country.
[4:17 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Else deal with the inconvenience.
[4:17 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: That's not the topic for today. We know your view on vaccination.
[4:17 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Can there be a legal case to be made for disproportionate financial hardship
[4:18 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Then bring it up to court.
[4:18 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Seems that if someone is medically unable to be vaccinated the state would pay.
[4:19 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: If someone doesn't want to be vaccinated (any vaccine) then they can come to an agreement with their employer to determine who pays what proportion (employer might say zero)
[4:19 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
The topic is regular test because workers don't vaccinate.
[4:19 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: How do we strike the balance of interests
[4:20 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: If someone has a vaccine appointment or is partially vaccinated then the state should pay
[4:20 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Company can mandate all costs be borne by employee
[4:20 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Is there a legislation to allow this?
[4:20 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Then vaccinate if medically eligible.
[4:21 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: If that's what they want to do, but equally they might think the employee has justification for not wanting to be vaccinated and then they can offer to pay.
[4:21 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: This is the issue right as minority chose to not vaccinate
[4:21 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Yet.... lol
[4:21 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Then go for regular test at your own cost.
[4:21 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: If this is the choice company takes then no issue for all concerned
[4:22 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: We are seeing in the US people starting to vaccinate now the FDA gave approval.
[4:22 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Exactly
[4:22 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Good
[4:22 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Do you think they will make it mandatory?
[4:22 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
That's why mandate compulsory vaccination will stop all these unnecessary argument.
[4:23 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: So you're penalising the employee in fact
[4:23 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: We know your view
[4:23 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Won't call it unnecessary
[4:23 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Because unvaccinated workers are causing problems to business.
And they deserve to pay for the inconvenience.
[4:24 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: I'm glad we don't do such experiments here!
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/latitude-festival-over-1000-people-get-covid-from-the-event-287467/
[4:24 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Yes, one can take that view.
Can we think of other options
[4:25 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: ... assuming our government won't say 'it's your problem, you pay'
[4:26 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: That is very harsh!
Who are u to judge?
R u saying tt the un-vaccinated workers do not contribute to the workplace?
How is their work contribution suddenly "an inconvenience" to the biz??? !!!
[4:26 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Differentiated treatment will prolong the pain and enduring memories of unhappiness.
2. Mandatory vaccination will be short and sharp - jab and done deal.
No need to compound complexity, cost and management.
[4:26 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: We know your view. Can we offer other options
[4:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Why are we even equating an employee's work contribution to their vax status???
[4:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +Caleb: I think the principal of testing those that have not been vaccinated is because to protect them.
In a event they get infected they can get medical treatment promptly.
[4:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Yes.
Tt is the point.
[4:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Yes,and to protect others in the workplace. Maybe it helps other workers feel safer to
[4:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Go back to the office
[4:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Yes I agree. But if the costs mount, then how can we address the potential claim of employee saying constructive dismissal
[4:28 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Yes you can hype up the benefits of such argument.
Except I am lazy to think along this path.
[4:29 pm, 25/08/2021] +~RH: Hybrid work system..
Un-vaccinated employee can WFH...?
[4:29 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: How about a worker getting infected because a colleague wasn't vaccinated and the company did nothing to stop the spread
[4:29 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Ha, that might be seen as a reward fro not getting vaccinated.
[4:30 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: There's well trodden avenues of legal redress
[4:30 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Because it is like going round behind the head to touch the nose versus touching the nose straight.
[4:31 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: I think Danny's point is that we have a solution. Why spend so much time and energy on something that doesn't solve the problem?
[4:31 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Yes this is the point.
And it includes tremendous cost to the whole economy - government, taxpayers money, business cost, people losing jobs.
[4:31 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: One debate. Mandatory vaccination. Yes, and the rest goes away.
[4:32 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Exactly.
One hit all solve.
[4:32 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Other wise we have endless debates about how to manage the problems cause by people who don't want to vaccinate.
[4:32 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: If such solution is going to be implemented, then we won't be having this discussion right
[4:32 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Exactly.
You know my points.
[4:33 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: You made them a few time haha π
[4:33 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Yes. And can wrap up the covid discussion.
[4:33 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Yes, but why entertain the other options.
[4:33 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Soon enough it will be obvious to all.
[4:33 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Vaccination is the only solution we have.
[4:33 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Governing is not so neat, is it
[4:34 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Thats why I'm not in government!
[4:34 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Obvious, but not to the sizeable minority
[4:34 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
If Mr LKY is around now, he will solve it immediately - and not let it drag and drag.
[4:34 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Obviously to the 90% who will soon be vaccinated.
[4:34 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Let's move beyond LKY
[4:35 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Then spend more resources and time and money just to see the circus show.
[4:35 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: We can learn much from history when we don't know the future.
[4:35 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: ... to be precise, citing if LKY
[4:35 pm, 25/08/2021] +Caleb: Plus SMM
[4:35 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: SMM?
[4:35 pm, 25/08/2021] +Caleb: Safe management measure
[4:36 pm, 25/08/2021] +Caleb: Social distancing. Personal hygiene ect
[4:36 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: Oh, sure that's true. We did that before the vaccine which meant lockdowns.
[4:36 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Yes, let's help to do the hard work of thinking
[4:37 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: You mean require those unvaccinated to do more?
[4:37 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ben: We have been debating this for months. Vaccination offers a solution. What other solutions are there being offered?
[4:37 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Well I use my brain to think of straight most effective path and solutions and will not waste time on circus
[4:38 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Those citizens are hardly circus
[4:38 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Misguided, misinformed, misjudged maybe, not circus
[4:39 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Before taking vaccination and give all kind of excuses are circus.
After vaccination, get protected- they discover their previous excuses are foolish.
[4:40 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Let's think beyond calling fellow Singapore names, shall we
[4:49 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: In case you're wondering, I've been fully vaccinated
[4:51 pm, 25/08/2021] +Boon: Based on your examples, it is amazing when a person thinks about it abit. These are countries that are supposed to stand for “human rights”, and “no discrimination”…
[4:53 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Talk to those people who die by covid about human rights.
Human rights watch is about protecting rights.
Human rights is not about protecting stubborness.
[4:53 pm, 25/08/2021] +Boon: Shouldn’t Sg have our own thoughts and analysis too, reflected by some of the other posts ?
[4:53 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Complain to UN Human rights on all these countries lor.
[4:53 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Yes, we have to ruminate on our own discourse pathway rather than ramming through
[4:54 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
oh yes tell covid not to ramp through the people and take lives
[4:56 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: We know your view. Let's look at other options that protect and yet balance interests of those who choose not to be vaccinated
[4:57 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Where we are now is achieving public health goals without draconian measure. How do we go forward with tweaks rather than leaps
[4:58 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
In a crisis enlightened leaders give directions and the rest comply to emerge from crisis.
Well if people who want to talk about human rights drag and drag - let more people drop dead.
And let those who procastinate account for it
[4:59 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
See how tough Mr LKY was when he led the Nation out of crisis.
[4:59 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
50 death and yet counting as anti-vaxx procastinate.
[4:59 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: If I may clarify just for my personal benefit, are you speaking on own personal behalf?
[5:00 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: What you have been saying is your sincere and personal views
[5:00 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Huh?
[5:02 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: So only tough measures work now?
[5:02 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Is it politically workable?
[5:03 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: Fortunately people like you and your BFF are the minority.
If the majority think like you/your BFF, then more likely than not, everyone would have died.
Without a large population/sample size taking the vaccination, where to get the long-term data that you speak of??
If the majority wait and see out of ignorance, and only a small number of people get vaccinated, will you trust the data? As it is, with date on/from 4 billion people who have been vaccinated - out of 7.5 billion global population - people of different age, race, gender. location/country, health status etc etc, you still do not trust the data and the science ... you telling me you will believe in the data from a smaller sample size?
You people are jokes!
[5:03 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Is it societally acceptable? Will it polarise Singapore?
[5:04 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: Do you even have in mind how long the "study" would have to be for you to be convinced that it is safe? 10years? 20 years? You sure you still be alive then?
[5:04 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Will we survive the pandemic only to have irreparable division?
[5:05 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Well differentiated treatment polarise people.
All vaccinated don't polarise people.
[5:05 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Think let's keep this forum safe to air out opinions without calling names
[5:05 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Well I have say my piece, and I don't want to prolong this discussion with you.
[5:05 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Long term data ia about time and not just about how many people are involved. Of course, the number of people forming part of the data set matters, but the long term effects are still not known.
[5:07 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Why not? Is there not more you can offer than pushing for mandatory vaccination?
[5:07 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Zzzzzzzz
[5:07 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Think this is unknown indeed
[5:07 pm, 25/08/2021] +Phyllis: Name calling is NOT nice at all.
[5:07 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
My close friend comments:-
The objective of having vaccination-differentiated measures such as regular testing at workplace is not clear to me.
We have seen too many breakthroughs on vaccinated persons. So to me if the goal is to isolate the infected, and therefore help to contain the spread, then both vaccinated and unvaccinated should be subjected to regular tests. The differentiated treatment to me, should then be more frequently for unvaccinated and less frequently for vaccinated since there are studies that claimed that vaccinated has lower chance of getting infected.
Otherwise, it sounds like punishing the unvaccinated and push them to get vaccinated.
For Frontline workers, it is better to mandate they get vaccinated unless they have medical reasons to justify otherwise. This is really for their own safety and reduce the likelihood of them becoming super spreaders once they are infected and thereby reducing the spiral effect of large outbreaks.
For backroom type of workers, the colleagues they face are limited and largely fixed group(s). Contact tracing is relatively much easier. Employers should see regular testings as a preventive measure of massive outbreak crippling their business operations.
The differentiated treatment at F&B is different since in this setting, people remove their mask, the transmission is far higher.
[5:07 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: Why do we have to?
The choice is simple.... everyone is free to choose ...
If you choose to vaccinate, then all you need to prove is that you are vaccinated.
If you choose not to vaccinate, then you need to prove that you do not carry the virus
[5:17 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: No one has ever claimed that the vaccinated will not get infected/become a host of the virus. The evidence has shown however, that the vaccines are effective in limiting the replication and spread of the virus.
[5:19 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Joseph, the issue is how can we balance interests of potentially repeated testing at the employee's costs v maintaining public health goals
[5:20 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: Peter, I do not disagree with that.
But rather than just question, why not propose, if you have a better solution?
[5:22 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: I would like to see you apply that need for accountability consistently across the board and against all the contributors here rather than narrowly targeting Danny π
[5:23 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Interesting to have a person who pushes certain agenda, and not as willing to listen
[5:25 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: I don't think there's "better". I believe pushing costs to employees is unlikely to pass muster, and legislation has to be drafted for debate and deliberation
[5:25 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: There is a lot of questionable comments spewed by others here. Hold them accountable as well please. Otherwise, you come across as simply pursuing a personal vendetta against someone you hardly even know simply (or maybe) because he/she rubs you the wrong way with his posts/comments.
[5:26 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: If I see it, I will do my part
[5:26 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: I agree.. but that statement only address the cost issue... it does take into consideration the health issue which we are dealing with concurrently.
[5:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Costs leads to constructive dismissal
[5:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: π
[5:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Here is mainly to hear voices on the ground not to stamp out others thought..
[5:27 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Yup
[5:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: If not what’s the point having this forum
[5:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: And to preserve safe environment for all to speak their mind
[5:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: that is dangerous if there is no better/cheaper alternative that is obviously required. Simply dismissing it due to cost will likely result in even higher costs in the future. And with CV19, that "future" is just round the corner rather than further down the road
[5:29 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: We are not here to judge but to debate on issues we feel strongly.. not a ground for propaganda
[5:29 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: I don't wish for this to be courts decision or MOM tribunal decision, as there may be potential inconsistent outcomes
[5:31 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Let there be some time for govt agencies to come up with subsidiary legislation than having to deal with vocal, narrow agendas
[5:31 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: And the grassroots (and here) to debate issues meaningfully
[5:33 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: And let's cheer YPX
[5:33 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Yes just drag the pandemic longer and longer.
Create many complicated legislation as people don't vaccinate.
Increase the burden and cost for the Nation.
Appeasing the unvaccinated - and let it drag and drag.
Until some point, leader say enough is enough.
[5:35 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: This is not the Courts. Neither are we making legal arguments. Not everyone has legal training like youself π
[5:35 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Fact now is vaccinated, for most is due to inconvenience of not being vaccinated.
Various reason, for job, for kids, for health. The list goes on. Is it best? Really we won’t know till time passed.
For now we adopt what is necessary for opening up which all countries has agreed on seems like being vaccinated is the way to go. People do not want to vaccinated have their issue we are not here to judge.
It was not mandate for reasons as well, as companies wanting countries to sign wavier. Their fears are reasonable. Only time will tell, so no point stamping out voices.
[5:36 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Debate means drag pandemic?
Debate means appeasing the unvaccinated?
Such strong words
[5:36 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Get people to vaccinate is call personal agenda?
Getting people to vaccinate to protect their live and everyone life is call propaganda!
Lockdown, people die, scare to vaccinate, human rights - not agenda, not propaganda.
So many people get vaccinated and don't succumb to serious illness and deaths compared to unvaccinated.
[5:37 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Oh continue debating.
Continue procastinate to vaccinate as people drop dead everyday.
Go on... Zzzzzzz
[5:38 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
How much we have spend on this covid?
More than $100 billion already.
How much more we are going to spend?
[5:38 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: I mostly agree with the part that everyone is free to share they views ... but I have to disagree that we stay silent when someone is vocalising radical misinformation lest it is misinterpreted as implicit support/agreement.
[5:40 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: They made their choice. Government didn’t mandate. So they live with the risk and inconvenience. We hit our number already.
So what’s the issue now?
Government already try to reduce risk by giving two different vaccines. And not mandate means we have the capability to handle those not vaccinated.
They willing to pay for the medical fees etc.
[5:41 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Misinformation part please report to Reach let them decide
[5:42 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: We can comment it might not be reliable..
[5:42 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: But not stamp out voices if not what’s the point of talking here?
[5:42 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: why suddenly everything must report to authorities only? Simple thing like pointing it out cannot meh? π
[5:43 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: there is no way anyone can stamp out another's voice... unless you are the admin/moderatoir
[5:43 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: moderator*
[5:43 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Oh well… if we cancel everyone then we don’t know the funny people here and what funny people think right?
[5:43 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Only hear one voice all one direction lol
[5:44 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Rarely see them in action now
[5:44 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: You have a valid point
[5:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: i agree with not cancelling anyone .. and I definitely like to know and hear the differing voices .. my point is, sometimes speaking up against it is necessary
[5:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Agreed
[5:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: Yes
[5:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: maybe NOT TAKING ACTION is the action they decided to take?
[5:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: π€·π»♂️
[5:46 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Last time still got bell now is nothing at all π€£
[5:47 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: And if you are calling for others to not cancel others, then does your call to cancel the "cancellers" equate to cancelling too? ππππ
[5:47 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: I am just jking bro .. hope you don;t take offense
[5:47 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: I am on the direction of being more open leh π
[5:48 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: I support vaccine but I really do want to hear the concern that are real that makes then don’t want vaccinated
[5:48 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: my point is exactly that everyone should feel free to speak their mind ... but also be prepared for challenges and retorts.
[5:49 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Sometimes it's not capable of being resolved
[5:50 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: I support not due to trust the vaccine, but that’s the way the country decide we should go just support the effort.
Concern are real. We are mostly quite educated. But misinformed is hard when both side don’t communicate
[5:50 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: that is unfortunately true
[5:51 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Just like parenting a teenager, perhaps?
[5:53 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: ... having heard several parents sharing their attempts to persuade their teenagers to vaccinate, painful
[5:56 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: If you guys know why japan vaccination is Low… for such a highly educated country. You know why there are still people don’t trust.
We look into history, so unless country mandate there is no way we should force people to take..
The inconvenience still not enough meh?
[5:56 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Clap clap clap
[5:57 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: the way i see it, we can only control our own actions. I am fearful of catching the virus from others... but I also acknowledge that I cannot force everyone to be vaccinated and/or observe strict social distancing measures etc as strictly (or maybe even more than) I do .. so, my solution is to restrict/reduce/limit my social and/or unnecessary interactions.
what annoys me are people who refuse vaccination, but insist on going on with life as if the virus is non-existent, and do not reciprocate with a similar level of thoughtfulness towards others....
but then again .. that goes back to rule #1 .. i can only control what I do .. not what others want to do .. so.....
[5:57 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: That's fair
[5:59 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: Mask will be the last to go… I really wonder when it will π€¦π»♂️
Really hard to breath with reusable proper mask. π
[5:59 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: There are those who even flouted the rule eg KTV saga, so they are getting the consequences.
Though costs are paid for by most of us
[5:59 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Ken, looks like a while yet
[5:59 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: π€¦♀️πππ
[5:59 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: speaking of KTVs.. it seems they are already back in full force
[6:00 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: Playing hide and seek with regulations and enforcement
[6:01 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Sigh
[6:01 pm, 25/08/2021] +Ken Loh: You will be surprise many singaporean working there due to no work available π
[6:02 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: SIA in-flight service crew for one
[6:03 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I know that coming to the last unvaccinated group - will be a very tough battle.
It comprises of anti-vaxx people, vaccines hesitant people, fearful of vaccines people, human rights principle people.
The last bastion.
I don't expect people to take it down easily.
And despite the difficulty, one who are focus in the aim to lift people out of the pandemic must be steadfast to battle it on.
Whether using soft hard approach.
The forum is a good battleground for decision makers to see how people respond when we push various solutions - so that policies can be adjusted as we advances in the vaccination program.
The last 20% will be a hard battle.
No one say is easy.
[6:04 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: They are openly promoting it on social media .. if someone like me can get wind of this, it makes me wonder how come the authorities are "not aware"
[6:04 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Looks like inundated
[6:06 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Need law enforcers who aren't police
Like administrators who aren't REACH administrators
[6:06 pm, 25/08/2021] +Anne: What is the true intent behind this “vaccinate or regular test” regime? Is it to protect, or to discriminate? Dear G, please be truthful. It is very hard for people to interact with an entity if it is two-faced, claiming they want to protect but the hidden agenda is to discriminate.
If the true intent is to protect then the “vaccinate or regular test” regime makes no sense. To protect, the proper procedure should be “regular test for everyone”, since the vaccines don’t prevent infection, and both the vaccinated and unvaccinated can spread the infection. Whether it is low probability or high probability is immaterial - both still spread. So, if it is necessary for the unvaccinated to test 2x a week, then the vaccinated should also test 2x a week.
However, if the intent is to discriminate, then I must highlight the assurances the G had given. The G promised to respect individual medical choices and whatever measures is not to discriminate but to protect. So, are these promises still valid? Is there any intent to break these promises?
I also wish to highlight another assurance which was given to us - that the G would be open and transparent about side effects. Before the roll out of vaccinations to the teenagers, there was news that young boys in US had heart inflammation side effects. This was reported in the CDC website and Reuters news. However the G made no move at all to inform the parents. HOW - COULD - YOU - BE - SO - RUTHLESS?!?! What happened to INFORMED CONSENT? Do you not respect the parents’ right to informed consent? If the parents of the 16-year-old boy who had cardiac arrest were in their right minds and not bogged down with worries, and they are aware that the G withheld such information, I would not be surprised if they sue the G. Do you really believe that $225K is sufficient for that poor boy? This is one promise that the G has broken.
Sidetrack: Now all eyes are on HSA. The FDA has formally approved the Pfizer vaccine
- in the midst on ongoing clinical trial, with the control group eliminated (same with Moderna). Yes, they jabbed the control group with the real vaccine in the middle of a clinical trial
- without the usual proper consultation with a committee of independent experts.
Will HSA follow proper procedures before approving these vaccines, as they did for Sinovac, or will they bend to pressure to approve these vaccines, thereby showing us they are mere copycats of FDA? Only time will tell.
So, it will be good if the G can clarify whether it intends to keep those promises that were previously made to the people.
1) No discrimination - all deserve respect and human dignity.
2) respect of individual medical choice
3) openness and transparency in informing us of the side effects.
[6:09 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So differentiated treatment - do have a set of prolonged problem as can be seen from the response of some people who feel discriminated.
Mandatory vaccination will also pose another set of problem - the harden response - but will end prolonging the unhappiness.
So decision makers will have to see how to fuse these hybrid solutions - and when the time and conditions are ripen - do the last leap to close the loop.
This pilot test certainly reveal how to take the vaccination program forward as we get to the last final battle - the last harden 20% bastion.
[6:09 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: Aiyoh.. how about ask yourself if you would be happier as a Malaysian now? Think Singaporeans really have it too good .. got so much time to think up “alternative” realities π
[6:10 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: If the intent is to discriminate .., need to wait till now meh? π
[6:11 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: Authority stretched to the max as mentioned by MTF
[6:13 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: Wow… wonder if we can use that same excuse when comes time to pay our taxes π
[6:14 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Anne, to follow up on your point on adverse US news - what specifically is your expectation on government to notify?
[6:19 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I have done the most difficult part by drilling in the mandatory vaccination - to see the response.
Differentiated treatment also revealed the prolong unhappiness of discrimination.
None of the approach make people happy - though it's a necessary evil.
So hope decision makers take this back and draw up a hybrid solutions to achieve the final goal - 100% vaccination.
[6:21 pm, 25/08/2021] +Dilasan. J: Me and my wife are fully vaccinated. My 4 Yr old and 2 Yr old kids are not.
I would have a peace of mind going to work knowing that at least all my fellow workers are fully vaccinated / do regular testing to ensure they are covid free. So I have a much lesser probability of picking up this corona virus from work and transmitting it to my kids.
Nothing is a perfect 100% assurance or guaranteed workable in this world. It is all about how we play our parts in keeping the likelihood high or low
[6:27 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Israel 3rd jab booster show R0 < 1.
That's covid Delta variants can be totally defeated by vaccination - human saviour.
It is how to get towards the last 20% unvaccinated groups - differentiated treatment or mandatory vaccination or a hybrid of both.
Both have problems in implementation - but are necessary evil.
[6:28 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: That's a reasonable view
[6:29 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Would you consider regular testing in parity with non vaccinated as someone else in this forum suggested
[6:30 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Like randomised testing?
[6:31 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: You know, i personally know someone who thinks similarly as Anne where Cv19, Govt, conspiracies are concerned.
I have known him since we were teens. back then, there was no internet/dark web/social media/blogs etc.
The only sources of knowledge are the “mainstream” sources - schools, educational texts, library, newspapers …
This guy, did poorly in school. Not the studying type. And… as you can imagine, not the first person anyone goes to for any kind of advise or information.
Fast forward a few decades and today.. this same guy is telling everyone else that what we know is wrong because he had been reading/watching videos from conspiracy nuts (or coz that was not the term he used, it as ours π). Qanon, Q, Dr G … some such rubbish.
Why is he so insistent that he, like Anne is right while the rest of us are wrong?
My theory is this.
For the first time in his life, he could insist that something is right simply by pointing to the fact that WE CAN’T prove with 100% certainty that the conspiracy rubbish he believes in and touts, is FALSE π³
i don’t know Anne… but I see similarities in both their line of arguments and thought process.
I may be wrong … but then again, I might be right, right Anne? π€·♂️
[6:31 pm, 25/08/2021] +Joseph Ong: π
[6:32 pm, 25/08/2021] +REACH: Police warn of fake Singapore Pools websites, mobile apps on Google Play store
SINGAPORE: The police issued an advisory on Wednesday (Aug 25) warning the public of fake Singapore Pools websites and mobile applications available on Google Play store.
More: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/police-fake-singapore-pools-websites-mobile-apps-google-play-store-2135126
[6:39 pm, 25/08/2021] +65 9847 9001: I like the government's way. Let people decide. Like smoking. Pay the price because hard to give up.
[6:39 pm, 25/08/2021] +Smiley face: The man who asks a question is a fool for a minute, the man who does not ask is a fool for life."
-- Confucius
" What the superior man seeks is in himself; what the small man seeks is in others."
-- Confucius
[6:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: Just saw people entering shopping mall CompassOne using the exit
[6:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: Didn’t scan TT
[6:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: Loophole
[6:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: No one stop her, no one check her, SDA just walk pass like nothing happen
[6:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: Endemic Endgame
[6:45 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: Well played
[6:47 pm, 25/08/2021] +Dilasan. J: I am currently still testing myself every 2 weeks even though I'm fully vaccination due to the nature of my work.
I don't consider it a nuisance. Instead it gives me a peace of mind. An assurance to myself that I can play with my kids. π
It's all eventually a mindset I guess.
[6:48 pm, 25/08/2021] +REACH: 118 new locally transmitted COVID-19 cases in Singapore, including 26 in dormitory in Woodlands
SINGAPORE: Singapore reported 118 new locally transmitted COVID-19 infections as of noon on Wednesday (Aug 25), including 26 linked to the cluster at North Coast Lodge dormitory in Woodlands.
More: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/covid-19-locally-transmitted-dormitory-cluster-moh-aug-25-2134246
[6:29 pm, 25/08/2021] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
See human can wait.
Virus don't wait.
[6:49 pm, 25/08/2021] +Dilasan. J: When a small inconvenience such as taking out your token or phone to scan outweighs the health and safety of your fellow human. π€·♂️
[6:50 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: We deserve the increase in infection rates
[6:50 pm, 25/08/2021] +Alvin Lim: Cos we are now complacent
[6:50 pm, 25/08/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 10 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Best,
Megan
[6:51 pm, 25/08/2021] +CQ: Yah.... The level of complacency is ridiculous.
[6:55 pm, 25/08/2021] +Peter T Ng: Thanks for that, such willingness goes a long way
[6:56 pm, 25/08/2021] +Rama: SDA to be taken to task
[6:57 pm, 25/08/2021] +Dilasan. J: ππ
[6:59 pm, 25/08/2021] +Smiley face: 25 August 2021
To: Distinguished MTF, DMS And All Honorable Members
"What goes around comes around... "
Let the tests of Covid master us as Human to stand taller as one homo sapien against all odds, impediments and differences!
The Calculatives:
To pay, to deny, or to subsidise? Each has its unintended consequences that may lead to many unforeseeable situations.
To pay for employees medical expenses or this case the bi-monthly swab tests are the good virtues of a good faith employer.
To deny an employee to claim for the basic safety working protocol that is swab test may be a calculative move from the point of the employees at large!
To subsidise swab tests cost, perhaps, is a good direction towards an inclusive working environment that will have positive attributes of productivity and a sense of belonging to all employees - Afterall it takes two hands to clap!
Afterwords:
"Money is a function, a transaction, in this new world we are living in now...olden days barter trades precedented!"
-- Ian T
[7:00 pm, 25/08/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
========
