REACH 375 - What are your views on this incident? How do you think we can discuss sensitive issues in a balanced manner?
(SK)
20 Jul 2022 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[10:00 am, 20/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
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Megan ๐
[10:03 am, 20/07/2022] +REACH: ๐ขTopic๐ข
On 18 July, Hwa Chong Institution (HCI) reprimanded and suspended a male school counsellor from conducting sexuality education lessons after presenting discriminatory content against LGBTQ people to students.
“We are aware of the incident, which took place during a presentation on sexuality where a staff member incorporated content outside the scope of the Ministry of Education’s (MOE) sexuality education curriculum into his slides,” the HCI spokesman responded.
The spokesman said the school takes a serious view of the incident and will review its processes to ensure such cases are not repeated.
๐ฌ What are your views on this incident? How do you think we can discuss sensitive issues in a balanced manner?
• HCI principal Pang Choon How addressed the Secondary 4 cohort on the incident on Monday morning, acknowledging students’ concerns about the presentation and assuring them the school counsellor’s views were personal and not representative of the school’s position.
• In a statement, LGBTQ community group Pink Dot SG said the presentation used fabricated statistics and gave misinformation about the LGBTQ community that is harmful and aimed at instilling fear and shame.
• To chalk this incident up to the actions of one rogue counsellor ignores systemic issues of inadequate sexuality education, the group added.
๐๐ป https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/hwa-chong-institution-staff-lgbtq-discriminatory-claims-presentation-sexuality-education-reprimanded-2817726
๐๐ป https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/parenting-education/hwa-chong-reprimands-staff-member-suspends-him-from-sexuality-education-over-anti-lgbtq-content
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[10:09 am, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: MOE need to set new education for “parent” learning what is about sex life for male and female.
Singapore don’t accept LGBTQ, the government section A377 ruling.
[10:10 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: LGBTQ is the so call new normal in the society fuel from the west ...
[10:11 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: this had seen as part of equal human rights and gender rights thus leading to a new breed of people call genderless
[10:13 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: as an asian country do we follow the west and erode our values or be upfront and open and share the norms of sex and genders and the newly crafted trend in the society with our young, thus allow them to know what is normal and what is not normal and the varies consequences.
[10:13 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: some values and culture is just not about accepting what other do or trend in society
[10:13 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: but more of keeping it within the family
[10:14 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: is a open topic and more drill down to both family and school
[10:14 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: since youngster like to have option let them know all these information the path they take is there
[10:15 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: some may turn queer some queer may turn back it is a 2 way traffic
[10:15 am, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Same sex gender nothing meaning but no life family. What’s affected learning normal life?
[10:15 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: singapore dun accept does not means is not allow cos no one is sent to be hang for being queer
[10:16 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: but neither can we ring fence them out of society
[10:16 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: my personnel take is as long as each side dun go overboard socially it shoudl be fine , socially respect each other
[10:17 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: as much as history had provent thru western and chinese history being queer is in existence but a hush hush topic but that does not mean is ok for majority
[10:18 am, 20/07/2022] +YT: I think the facts of sexuality education should be presented as that - facts. There should not be any personal nor religious views imposed or propagated during these sessions. It's a shame that some believers of certain religions take it upon themselves to impose their views on others. Basically, these sessions should be kept simple, secular, and factual. Not personal, and certainly not religious.
[10:18 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: not sure if it is proven but many like in thailand are force by social situation to be queer
[10:18 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: and forcing a govt to expel certain regulation just for their own -> i guess is not right
[10:19 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: the govt is there to safe guard the country interest
[10:19 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: if like that one day we will get a group who say incest should be made legal
[10:19 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: genderless / whatever binary should be made legal
[10:20 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: so there is a line to be drawn and information from both sides o fthe world should be made known to the youngs of the society
[10:20 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: at their age sec -> jc -> poly is all about fun / exploration which many a times are mislead ....
[10:22 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: on the side note most queer people are usually much better socially people , with no hidden agenda than normal people ;)
[10:45 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: To be an inclusive society , we must understand and tolerate diversity within reason.
[10:48 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: and respect seems this word not many understand expect verbally saying respect this, respect that .. hahahhahaa
[10:48 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: except sorry
[10:51 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Various religious groups must also explain their individual faith teachings and acceptance level.
[10:52 am, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: As a secular school and a person of authority, all educators should be objective and neutral in this matter. No personal bias and own religion and beliefs should be involved.
I can only imagine those who are struggling with identifying their own sexual orientation will further suppress their problems and eventually lead to depression or even suicide due to these discrimination
[10:53 am, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Same-sex sexual activity is prohibited under the Penal Code 2008, which criminalises acts of ‘gross indecency’. This provision carries a maximum penalty of two years’ imprisonment. Only men are criminalised under this law.
The law was inherited from the British during the colonial period, in which the English criminal law was imposed upon Singapore. Singapore retained the provision upon independence and continues to criminalise same-sex sexual activity today.
[10:54 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: I personally am OK with subsidies for housing, medical, transportation, utilities and conservancy. But not for same sex marriage, adoption or legal guardian.
[10:55 am, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Total agreed
[10:56 am, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Singapore not ready for same-sex marriage as society is still conservative: PM Lee
[10:57 am, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: homosexuality will eventually be accepted. "It's already accepted in China. It's a matter of time before it's accepted here."
[11:04 am, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: If there is a Woman's Chapter in the law, why can't we have Man's chapter too?
[11:04 am, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Woman and man are different in state
[11:05 am, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Physical body are different
Woman weak
Man stronger
[11:06 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: This one dam agree! Either that or scrap women charter hahha
[11:12 am, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: Sadly to say, with Penal Code 377A in existence, the LGBTs in Singapore will remain discriminated as a "lesser being" in Singapore, being denied given equal rights as compared to heterosexuals. Authorities and general public alike (especially among those religious) will have a legal basis to discriminate them.
[11:14 am, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: They are not treated "based on justice and equality" as per our national pledge
[11:15 am, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: It's a matter of persecution. Have you ever watched MMA where ladies fight? It can be similar in capacity if they are well trained
[11:15 am, 20/07/2022] +SL: Just wondering, In Taiwan's context, is the religious in taiwannjurisdiction support their govt action on this topic, or is there a different opinion on their society?
[11:15 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: think the term equality here means other things
[11:16 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: if like that women charter is not being equal to other gender like men / queer / genderless .....
[11:16 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: is more like equal as all are treated a fellow human beings
[11:17 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: we should not forget the simplest form of race is only 1 race human race .....
[11:17 am, 20/07/2022] +SL: Indonesia, Brunei, Malaysia society reactions etc?
[11:19 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: this one agree also wor, cos whatever men can do women also can (minus reproduction aspect), whatever women can do men also can do, even from acient times who say skirts are only for women look at scottish they call it kilts / jean paul gaultier also design skirt like wear for men, ancient chinese men were skirts like wear call robe hahahaha
[11:19 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: is us humans that put a specific expectation to things
[11:20 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: like sorry to say religion which everyone beliefs in his or her own that their God is good , who is the one to say xxx is bad, yyyy is not right ... humans .....
[11:21 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: the best human example if i can say is look at kids, to them there is no right or wrong from the start till they attend school
[11:22 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: all of their classmates different race / different religion / queer or not to them all ae fellow freinds because they see them as fellow humans beings
[11:22 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: all are equal boys or gers they just help out each other
[11:22 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: is the process of growing us that segregate our thinking into the varies crooks and nooks of the society as norms
[11:24 am, 20/07/2022] +SL: My understanding is 377a was not really enforced… latest case on tan Seng Kee vs AG, court of appeal ruled 377a cannot be used
[11:26 am, 20/07/2022] +SL: Maybe man can give birth in future with dna enhancement , a new species of human?
[11:26 am, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: Even thought not actively enforced, people can always cite 377A as the legal basis to discriminate them. “See, those gays, what they do in the bedroom is illegal in the eyes of the law”
[11:27 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: till then den say but for now is not possible like women without certain parts of the other sex self reproduction is not possible unless is a downline from frog? human-creature hybrid?
[11:30 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Exactly!?
[11:31 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: for as far as the current topic is ... the baseline from my point is respect and understand the social culture , thus this will previal living in harmony in any society ....
[11:32 am, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Can u tell man vs woman in championship?
[11:32 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: This should not apply if done in private with mutual consent
[11:33 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: I do not want this to be repealed.
[11:33 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: matters is many feels is their human rights to do this and that forgetting others parts of the society too have their own human rights too ... if everyone wants to enforce their rights it will be chaos ....
[11:33 am, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: Anyway back to the school context, even if the counsellor is pro LGBT, he or she should remain neutral and not provide his or her personal bias
[11:33 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: which is what USA and EU is facing
[11:34 am, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: We are different law and we are Singapore independent
[11:34 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: What goes on outside of Singapore should not apply to Singapore.
[11:34 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: that's why i mentioned respect ....
[11:34 am, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: 20 July, 2022
To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members
"The X+Y, it causes and effects (ไบบ็ฑปๅบๅ ็ปๅๆ่ฒไฝ)...?"
Coexist Over Conflict:
Are all these fair (unfair) classification of naming sexual orientations? Are these legacies and learnt from the western civilization or likewise did it happened for the last known 5000 years of the Asian civilization including India too?
Should you "discovered" your child or your spouse or your friends or your co-workers or your bosses, how would one reacts? Simply accepting thats life or don't know what to do or discriminates and categorically reject?
One important thing is human must learn to accept and adapt to fellow human especially known genetic issues in their DNAs that perhaps skewed out of the norm of being a male or a female?
Was it intentional or blamed it on family, friends or social influences or was it curiosity and playful to choose one or more of theses alternative lifestyles? Read on.
All of these living voices channel to one, we human are such a diverse species that stakeholders such as societies, policymakers, sociologists and geneticists have accepted the truth and reality, these alternate paths of life (or hidden life ้่็็ๆดป) !
Importantly, let's all coexist, behave civilly and do not create havoc or break laws. Three rules to consider- be non-extreme, be compassionate and think inclusively!
Further Readings:
"The Gene" by Siddhartha Mukherjee
One famous Chinese Classics, "Dream of The Red Chamber (็บขๆฅผๆขฆ)"
- - in progress - -
[11:35 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: everyone have their rights but cannot have 100%
[11:35 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: in us and eu their want it 100%
[11:35 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: if our society follows such mindset and culture it will tears down our harmony culture and state
[11:35 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: give and take
[11:35 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: that's what life is all about is NOT about winding or loosing
[11:36 am, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Some use it for their career advancement/ benefits. Men are always at the losing end.
[11:37 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: no one man view is right nor one man view is wrong always sometimes situation required a couple of ideas to birth new solutions
[11:37 am, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Human Equality is an issue. Not other unrelated matters.
[11:37 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Agree
[11:38 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: We chart our own course
[11:38 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: that's for the cunning mind but have we not heard behind a successful man is a successful women ... and also failure is the mother of all success.... what it says NO FEMALE no alot of things (joking lah) hahahaha
[11:39 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: True
[11:40 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: to add to Mother nature, have we heard of father nature hahahhaha
[11:40 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: so everything is about women ....
[11:41 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: No men at all without the opposite sex!
[11:42 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: ahh that's wrong certain religion will say no men will not have women
[11:42 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: cos the rib was taken from man to create women
[11:42 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: else where is women going to be created from ribs of an animal ?
[11:42 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Yes
[11:43 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: so in the end is all in simplest form male / female colour or not we are 1 race and kind-> human beings
[11:43 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Just like which comes first - the chicken or the egg!?
[11:44 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: no bacteria to create life where got chiken nor eggg , simplest form thinking
[11:45 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: scientifically speak we are all a results of some form of bacteria which have special dna that evolve
[11:47 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: end of the day whatever gender one is u become a worm bag so why not just live in current time in peace with each other .....
[11:50 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: So, society must not fault the person or parent for imperfect sexual orientation but understand such genes cannot be predicted or controlled.
[11:53 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: not wrong to say this ..... but such people should undergo professional help before officially declaring as the other wise ...
[11:53 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: cos some are misled by the people, media surrounding them
[11:54 am, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Yes indeed.
[11:54 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: So, will we one day see a political offiice holders, commander of spf/cnb/saf/cnb as being from the lgbt community!?
[11:55 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: even if yes they will not declare
[11:55 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: but as political leader they sure have to be impartial like the recent whatever dot event
[11:55 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Should not hide but be upfront
[11:56 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: BUT the group should not misread when political figure appear at such even as is a stamp of approval ....
[11:57 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: not easy to come clean in asia culture
[11:57 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: west maybe
[11:57 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: cos they everything also can
[11:57 am, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Agree
[11:57 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: even if one say i married animals as wife, i have animals as my kid
[11:58 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: remember this lady she love 747 or 7x7 plane so much she was approved to marrived a plane!
[11:58 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: can go search on the internet
[11:58 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: and in japan a guy love this holo gram anime so much he marry the halo gram
[11:59 am, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: can we accept such people in leadership position ....
[0:00 pm, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: so as long as they wanna live their side of life and not cause waves of disturbance in the society norm i am good for their existence
[0:02 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Yes
[0:03 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Live and let live
[0:03 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Just take time…
As people get more open.
Is personal choice, I don’t support it. Neither do I slam it.
Being different as long as they do it well, gender preference not really a issue.
Unless it involved changing the rules, like adoption for LGBT. ๐ I might have a slight issue on that. Personal view I guess
[0:03 pm, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: the song from Beatles? hahahahaha
[0:04 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp-video/mmvo144290885805
Admiral Rachel Levine new idea
[0:05 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: I am still old fashion in that aspect…
But maybe time will change my view for now not really.
[0:07 pm, 20/07/2022] +AH HENG: anyway good discussion and good day to all remember we are all of the same DNA human regardless gender type / colour / race. your power and might does not leave a legacy and will follow u to the grave where annual people either remember you for the good or bad (mostly) one had done. We are all worm bag when the candle blow out. Live to the fullest of time with your love one queer or not they are still YOUR LOVE ONES , bury the hate .. cos once is gone means gone . Learn from our children (before they get impure by us and society) they are a constant lights to our evil and crooked mindset .....
[0:07 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: https://www.foxnews.com/media/rachel-levine-blasted-call-support-empower-youth-transgender-treatments-unserious-regime.amp
[0:08 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: Current USA assistant health secretary new idea
[0:10 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: A bit too young to decide ๐
Not sure… if we should even allow way before adulthood
[0:11 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If we don’t allow them to vote, I guess they are not mature enough to decide their gender at that age
[0:11 pm, 20/07/2022] +jimmy chew: Interesting thought. Didn't think of that. Deliberation should be with parent's rather than those at MOE or teachers inclination. They should asked parents to review the contents and hold dialogue with parents. LIke REACH getting in touchwith us on government policies.
[0:12 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: Based on assessment news input, that is a political correct move in current usa politic arena. ๐
[0:13 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: 20 July, 2022
Pre-puberty, starts of puberty and the puberty years are three dynamic stations of growing up! Besides physical changes and changing behaviors, importantly the mental developments of a boy or girl into teen, both are different too! As parents, please observe closely these changes, philosophically, it can be a pain and or fun for parent and child?
Turning to this topic, what exactly did the counsellor spoken to his cohort of teenage boys? Was it a general remark or was it a personal "indepth talk" out of the permissible guidelines and lecture script from MOE? Does anyone has insights?
[0:13 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It is not easy growing up as normal kids… to become transgender kid ๐
The emotion trauma is it really worth?
[0:13 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: What's and where we're the damage done?
[0:14 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Anxiety and Emotion will yield ANGER.... pls take note of this making...
[0:16 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: A&E = Accidents Happened!
[0:17 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: I have no idea. I guess it depends on the community they live in.
[0:17 pm, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Agreed.
[0:19 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Ken,
Glad you brought it up!
Genetic in play, quite certain for many instances...
[0:20 pm, 20/07/2022] +jimmy chew: Agree. Because of peer pressure.
[0:22 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: Is there any reverse medical treatment if the child overturns the decision after turning adult?
[0:24 pm, 20/07/2022] +jimmy chew: And their values are forming
[0:48 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: No known medical protocol.
[0:58 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: War on drugs more challenging as other countries loosen their drugs stance: Shanmugam
More: https://str.sg/wEMS
[1:14 pm, 20/07/2022] +jimmy chew: I thought gay not equal to trans?
[1:17 pm, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: A court martial had ordered him to be hanged - but Tomlinson seemed unconvinced by the decision, questioning whether what the papers called an "unnatural act" was really that unnatural.
Tomlinson argued, from a religious perspective, that punishing someone for how they were created was equivalent to saying that there was something wrong with the Creator.
"It must seem strange indeed that God Almighty should make a being with such a nature, or such a defect in nature; and at the same time make a decree that if that being whom he had formed, should at any time follow the dictates of that Nature, with which he was formed, he should be punished with death," he wrote on January 14 1810.
If there was an "inclination and propensity" for someone to be homosexual from an early age, he wrote, "it must then be considered as natural, otherwise as a defect in nature - and if natural, or a defect in nature; it seems cruel to punish that defect with death".
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-51385884
[1:18 pm, 20/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Self respect gay
but the law are rejected
Where history begin found
[1:32 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: I hope that In the future, when medical treatment advances, body cells can regenerate at an acceptable fast speed to treat accident
[1:35 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: According to CDC definitions on 9 June 2022, “trans” is an umbrella term that covers “gay.”
[1:38 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: A tough breakthrough, its gene and chromosomes that needed to be changed.... Perhaps Time will help?
[1:39 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
1. Concerning LGBTQ issue, I got 2 views:-
a. We should not discriminate against LGBTQ people.
I believe LGBT are not by choice but due to biological or medical or psychological deficiency - that result in sexual disorientation - ie. man's body but female in sexual orientation or vice versa.
Hence, I feel that we can accomodate and not discriminate against the LGBTQ group.
b. But it will be a big turn off to me if the LGBTQ start to promote and push their values to the majority.
Because it is against my views in promoting healthy family values and raising offsprings in a traditional family value settings.
[1:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Regardless Gay or Lesbian, they are human with at times genetic issues. So long all of us coexist and give private space to one another, straight or not so?
[1:41 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: I guess so. Time will help in the (1) DNA studies path and (2) cell and tissue regenerative and transplantation
[1:42 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Promoting or engaging or encouraging perhaps will cross the Conservative line and questionable and acceptable behaviors.
Let's all human behave and share the given or created space.
[1:42 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: I think a major cultural/mindset shift on this issue will require generational time frames to achieve.
With better knowledge and understanding of biological, physiological and psychological issues surrounding our LGBTQ community, will come more widespread acceptance. Just like in my grandparents' generation, it was the norm to openly discriminate against anyone from the LGBTQ community, in mine, we openly work alongside them and I personally even have good friends from the LGBTQ community.
Having said that, I am against the recent aggressive push by some within the LGBTQ community for more recognition and validation. It feels to me, that in their urgency for legitimacy, they have forgotten, or worse, chose to ignore, the concerns and discomfort that the (still) majority of the population who are more "conservative", and not quite ready to FULLY accept as "the norm".
It is ironic to me, that there is such a huge outcry in response to this recent debacle, and yet, there is hardly any protest towards the pervasiveness of LGBTQ themes, not just in ADULT/MATURE themed media - books, movies etc - but even pre-teen and children's books and shows. I would like to emphasise that I am not LGBTQ-phobic, but I am uncomfortable - like the majority of us still are - with how aggressively and urgently, the VOCAL MINORITY, seems to be forcing the SILENT MAJORITY to accept what we are not ready for, yet.
Hiding behind slogans and calls for "inclusivity" and "equal rights" to legitimise, de-stigmatise and normalise their community, "cancelling" anyone who dares question/challenge some of their ideals, it feels to me that the actions of some LGBTQ proponents, are in fact epitomising the very discriminatory actions/practices that they are fighting against by often "dismissing,", "excluding" (and cancelling the voices and concerns of the silent/quieter majority) and stripping others of their right to be/feel/voice their concerns/discomfort.
As I have said, a change of this magnitude, takes (a lot) of time. Generations. I do want to see the LGBTQ community be increasingly accepted. There has been a lot of progress made for the community. More can be done. But, give it time. If you push too hard, there will be push back.
Don't end up having to take 2 steps back because you were too eager to gain a step forward.
[1:45 pm, 20/07/2022] +JC: I think what's been missing in many commentaries on this topic is the concept of proportionality - granted that the school counsellor is wrong in doing what he did, is this an offense that warrants firing? I hope not - we all make mistakes and if the harm is mitigated/addressed, it is better for our society to be gracious, allow individuals to learn from their mistakes and move on from there.
Secondly, I think we must be clear that the issue here is that wrong statistics are presented to push a specific perspective. In a free society, the school counsellor has the right to hold and express his beliefs in his personal capacity - but in his role as an educator, he should not be presenting incorrect data that misleads nor present only one side views on the issue. That's just counterproductive.
[1:46 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: In the book "the gene", the author has stated for these genetic caused gender behaviors can be crossed generational. What's it means in simple words that is.... One's uncle who is one's mother brother gene MAY be transcripted into one's son! That's cross generational!
Disclaimer: not discriminating nor inferring such situation will always happen.
[1:50 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: We need a white paper on this and a parliament committee to openly debate this
[1:55 pm, 20/07/2022] +SL: The nature human behaviors articles published in 2019 and 2021 regarding the gene marker sequence that affects the evolution of homosexuality are still unconcluded. Maybe the western research center needs to do more research, publish it, and convince society.
[1:55 pm, 20/07/2022] +JC: Question on (1) -> do you think we should discriminate against LGBTQ if they have a choice in the matter???
This is one the major misconception about LGBTQ issues - "choice" isn't the fundamental issue here. So what if someone chooses to be gay or trans? Should we think they are "bad" or "inferior"? Of course not!
Likewise, people who adhere to certain religious beliefs - by choice - should also be respected and understood by those who might disagree with them.
We should consider what a fundamentally free and inclusive society should look like - in all directions. We are a diverse city state with 5million people living in a small land area - we can't possibly agree on everything but we must be ready to let some things go, learn to be tolerant, yet be allowed to exercise our own "choice" in life - and live with the consequences.
As a society, rather than quarrelling about real/perceived slights, lets instead focus on the most disadvantaged among us and see what we can do to uplift them. Those who are ready to do that, they are comrades, no matter creed, race or sexuality or whatever you want to label yourself.
[1:57 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
1. Citing an experience with my brush with 2 LGBTQ persons in MRT, my wife and I was quietly sitting in the MRT train browsing our smartphone.
2. One lady and one man boarded the train and sit opposite us. The man is holding a rainbow small flag and wearing a rainbow scarf round his neck.
3. I exchange glances with my wife and in our mind, we knew that he belongs to the LGBTQ group.
4. In my mind, I tell myself we need to be compassionate to the 2 LGBTQ and accept them as it is - and we continue to surf our net with our smartphone.
5. Then that man start to talk a bit loudly to the other woman that make everyone in the cabin a bit discomfortable.
6. And then I realise he start to talk about his LGBTQ activities and values - and I can sense that he is trying to get everyone in the cabin to accept his values.
7. That is the point that turn me off.
I can accept him being LGBTQ - but the moment he try to promote his values without the majority soliciting it - it make us feel uncomfortable and my views against LGBTQ turn negative.
For a while, I thought if more of such LGBTQ go around and talk like this --- it will be affecting our value system in promoting family values and procreation of offspring.
What if more people follow their ways of life - and how will that ensure we have more offsprings to carry the Economy and run the Country - if procreation is not possible through the LGBTQ activities?
8. I inform my wife about the LGBTQ topic in REACH today - and her immediate reaction is - this group is not helping in family values and procreation.
[1:58 pm, 20/07/2022] +JC: single heterosexual people are also not helping with procreation....๐
[2:01 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Lol but not widely known…
They don’t really label it as gay gene by the author… just people like to make it seems like it is…
Further study was not done. When I last read about it.. anyone follow the story?
[2:02 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: ๐ขTopic๐ข
On 18 July, Hwa Chong Institution (HCI) reprimanded and suspended a male school counsellor from conducting sexuality education lessons after presenting discriminatory content against LGBTQ people to students.
“We are aware of the incident, which took place during a presentation on sexuality where a staff member incorporated content outside the scope of the Ministry of Education’s (MOE) sexuality education curriculum into his slides,” the HCI spokesman responded.
The spokesman said the school takes a serious view of the incident and will review its processes to ensure such cases are not repeated.
๐ฌ What are your views on this incident? How do you think we can discuss sensitive issues in a balanced manner?
• HCI principal Pang Choon How addressed the Secondary 4 cohort on the incident on Monday morning, acknowledging students’ concerns about the presentation and assuring them the school counsellor’s views were personal and not representative of the school’s position.
• In a statement, LGBTQ community group Pink Dot SG said the presentation used fabricated statistics and gave misinformation about the LGBTQ community that is harmful and aimed at instilling fear and shame.
• To chalk this incident up to the actions of one rogue counsellor ignores systemic issues of inadequate sexuality education, the group added.
๐๐ป https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/hwa-chong-institution-staff-lgbtq-discriminatory-claims-presentation-sexuality-education-reprimanded-2817726
๐๐ป https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/parenting-education/hwa-chong-reprimands-staff-member-suspends-him-from-sexuality-education-over-anti-lgbtq-content
[2:03 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Seems like more kids using Reddit nowadays
[2:04 pm, 20/07/2022] +JC: Biologically, it's highly unlikely for there to be a "gay gene" - actually this is really a non-issue. So what if there are gay genes? So what if there aren't? Why should we treat gay people differently if there is or isn't a gay gene???
[2:06 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It is a very hard topic.. even scientists don’t want to go to that part of the study… cause will have grant issue… ๐คฃ
And be on negative news..
[2:06 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Unless they too free and ok with being targets of hate groups…
Most of the time they will stay clear
[2:19 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: 20 July, 2022
National Referendum?
Perhaps when times ripen, there may be a need to hold a national referendum to decide on abolishing 377A or rewriting part of / or entirely refreshed and renamed 377A or status quo?
Lowering the age barrier for such national exercise can be 18yrs and above. The purpose is to expand and to include our youth to be part of a legal history in making. The final majority scores shall be the will and the voice of one united people!
Additionals?
We can also coupled with other social or economics or education choices into one clean sheet of referendum paper?
Possible and Probability?
[2:21 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It is hard to check for this anyway… but opening up for debate, are we ready?
What is to come? What we gain from it?
[2:28 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China
[2:28 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Why make this about East v West?
[2:29 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: People don't 'turn queer'
[2:29 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, there should be no shame
[2:30 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, live and let live
[2:30 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Ken,
To addon, the timing must be rite and PRIOR to such national exercise, importantly, the voting citizens need to know the background, the knowledge, the CONSEQUENCES, impact and significance especially to ABOLISH it.
When will Singapore ready to refer and to decide? Anyone pls add on...
[2:30 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, what is the brief given to the counsellor. How are they monitored?
[2:32 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, and welcome diversity too. Celebrate our differences.
[2:32 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: So far… major laws had not been changed just because we wanted.
They only change with something in mind to improve the economy and benefit the society directly… example the MBS
https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/infopedia/articles/SIP_1114_2007-01-12.html
[2:32 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Totally agree.
There should not be differentiation between nature and nurture.
The focus should be about acceptance, inclusivity, sensitivity and accommodation towards each other. It has to swing both ways (pardon the pun). Non-LGBTQ should strive to be more accommodating and accepting while the LGBTQ community, I would hope, can be equally sensitive to the fact that it is not the norm to most, and be mindful about making others feel uncomfortable.
[2:33 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: We still maintain the death penalty for drugs
https://www.mha.gov.sg/home-team-real-deal/detail/detail/the-death-penalty-in-singapore
[2:34 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: It's not enforced oke that now, and the interpretation is when the act is non consensual.
[2:35 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes I remember this interview from a few years back. He might be right, and it's complicated. Our regional neighbours are very intolerant I believe. Its good to keep asking the question though
[2:36 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Perhaps a better difference to highlight would be that one is capable of growing, birthing and feeding a baby, while the other is not.
[2:37 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: That's true.
[2:37 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: In general we are not homophobic…
Even if the law say so, there is no enforcement.
So why is there the need to change it? It doesn’t prevent us from getting talent, cause of such non enforced law around.
[2:37 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Ha, good point!
[2:38 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: I disagree that holding a referendum is the way to resolve this issue.
A small majority "win" for wither side, will only serve to highlight the division and heighten unnecessary vigilance (and action?) against each other.
If it were possible to achieve a 90-100% referendum result, then the referendum would not have been necessary in the first place.
[2:38 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, it's a form of social control.
[2:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: I'm curious why. Is it an emotional reaction or is there a tangible reason? I'm not saying you are right or wrong or challenging you. It would be interesting to understand your point of view.
[2:41 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes we are sovereign. However we can learn from each other and decide what is right for Singapore. Doesn't mean we are bing imposed on if we change and align ourselves with others
[2:43 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Let's not go there. Religious stories from ancient times are often ill informed, and the root of suppression and division.
[2:43 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Ha yes, I like that haha
[2:45 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Perhaps it's not imperfect. Perhaps nature's way of managing birth rate. Perhaps our emotions are complex and Perhaps its not all about sex. Perhaps sex is just an expression of love and not all about the physical act.
[2:45 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: One dynamic of a national referendum exercise is the transparent views of up to 75% SUPER majority.
These final result slips are valuable insights and foresights of our people regardless of gender preferences, race or religion. It will be a mental compass of individuals coming together with diverse interpretation of things and the enlarged society. Perhaps these days what many politicians are saying or guessing, "what are your aspirations and your dreams?".
[2:48 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: One, if known 90% against or for an issue, there is no need for referendum.
Two, who knows what these new days abd new ways of thinking from oyr youth to our young working adults? What's inside their minds?
"We will not know exactly until we face it or we continue the guessing game?. .."
[2:49 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Fair enough, although 'traditional' values are also 'pushed' onto society everywhere. Is that giving everyone an equal opportunity to be themselves?
[2:50 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Well said
[2:51 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Anyone who talks loudly, or play their videos with the volume up on the MRT is rude and inconsiderate no matter their sexual orientation. This incidnet isnt related to LGBTQ.
[2:51 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Be cautious:
The power and might mobile phone and mobile data!
Opinion ms abd views changing and evolving! It is tough to zoom into a finite solution or understanding of issue, it can be casual, social, political or waring issues...
These technologies is fastest driver of things!
[2:53 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: LGBTQ family values might just be creating a loving supportive environment. What is wrong with that? Perhaps people against them are actually against family values?
[2:53 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: World doesn't really need more people.
[2:58 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: Pls don't be ridiculous. You think all gay folks are like that? The majority are quiet unassuming folks doing your medical, logistics your bread and butter
[2:58 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
So your view that a family without offspring is ok?
This means Singapore will be all old people without descendants is ok?
Japanese are not replacing their population because birth rate decline and they are not too accepting of immigrants.
Hence they are worried that Japanese civilization may one day gone.
[2:59 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: If the entire population is gay and decides not to have children?
[3:00 pm, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: It's not ok. But if they are born in this way. Can't be helped. If they are accepted by their family, why can't society accept them?
[3:00 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
That's how I interpret what you write.
[3:01 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
I can accept them and not discriminate them.
But when they push their values on me - I will respond.
[3:04 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It will not happen… and even if you don’t prevent… the number of gays won’t significantly increase because it is open ๐
[3:05 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Not having kids.. is not due to gay… but more of environment and culture.
[3:05 pm, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Cost of living is the killer here.
[3:08 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It is cool to be gay will you be? Lol… so is a preference and being open don’t means there will be more gays.. just that they will be more open about their sexuality.
But for me just don’t let young kids choose at young age, when they are not mature and I have issue with gay couple having kids. Totally against it.
Then again there are gay couples having normal kids, but definitely not normal family to communicate specially at current time point. ๐
[3:14 pm, 20/07/2022] +jimmy chew: haha.. we're discussing the pink elephant in the room
[3:21 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: https://thediplomat.com/2022/04/singapores-slow-but-steady-path-toward-decriminalizing-homosexuality/
[3:24 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: https://m.facebook.com/mustsharenews/videos/lee-kuan-yew-on-gay-rights-in-singapore/2951587168223580/
[3:28 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Reuters (23/4/07):
“If in fact it is true, and I have asked doctors this, that you are genetically born a homosexual -- because that’s the nature of the genetic random transmission of genes -- you can’t help it. So why should we criminalize it?” Monday’s Straits Times, a pro-government daily, quoted Lee as saying
while homosexuality was not widely accepted in Singapore, authorities must take a pragmatic approach.
“Let’s not go around like this moral police ... barging into people’s rooms. That’s not our business,” he told a weekend meeting with the youth wing of the People’s Action Party, Singapore’s ruling political party.
- -MM Lee Kuan Yew
[3:38 pm, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: That's right.
[3:50 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: That's life too....
[3:51 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Thank you!
[4:06 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: ๐ขTopic๐ข
On 18 July, Hwa Chong Institution (HCI) reprimanded and suspended a male school counsellor from conducting sexuality education lessons after presenting discriminatory content against LGBTQ people to students.
“We are aware of the incident, which took place during a presentation on sexuality where a staff member incorporated content outside the scope of the Ministry of Education’s (MOE) sexuality education curriculum into his slides,” the HCI spokesman responded.
The spokesman said the school takes a serious view of the incident and will review its processes to ensure such cases are not repeated.
๐ฌ What are your views on this incident? How do you think we can discuss sensitive issues in a balanced manner?
• HCI principal Pang Choon How addressed the Secondary 4 cohort on the incident on Monday morning, acknowledging students’ concerns about the presentation and assuring them the school counsellor’s views were personal and not representative of the school’s position.
• In a statement, LGBTQ community group Pink Dot SG said the presentation used fabricated statistics and gave misinformation about the LGBTQ community that is harmful and aimed at instilling fear and shame.
• To chalk this incident up to the actions of one rogue counsellor ignores systemic issues of inadequate sexuality education, the group added.
๐๐ป https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/hwa-chong-institution-staff-lgbtq-discriminatory-claims-presentation-sexuality-education-reprimanded-2817726
๐๐ป https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/parenting-education/hwa-chong-reprimands-staff-member-suspends-him-from-sexuality-education-over-anti-lgbtq-content
[4:06 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Seems a bit too hypothetical.
[4:07 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Same with religious folk or financial advisors lol
[4:07 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes probably right
[4:10 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: You can take a poll .. but a referendum to decide on an issue? No thanks. I still remember how the Brexit referendum turned out ๐
[4:10 pm, 20/07/2022] +Anne: There is a need to differentiate between an LGBTQ lifestyle and a person who is by nature part of the LGBTQ group.
I have homosexual friends whom I treat with respect as people of worth, and I do not probe or criticize their lifestyles, unless they are the ones who start the subject and it is usually certain religions that do not accept such lifestyles.
One Christian I know shared that he has 2 homosexual Christian friends whom he used to pray together. He kept their sexual inclination confidential. One friend eventually became a celibate and serve in the church, the other decided to embrace the LGBTQ lifestyle. He did not criticize his LGBTQ friend but instead accepted his decision. He empathized with both of them.
Although some people claim that science proves that there is no way a person can be born an LGBTQ, the homosexuals that I know do have such a nature. I’m not an expert in how they became that way, but since they have already have that nature, I have to accept them for who they are.
Being in an LGBTQ minority group can be painful, and this group deserves our empathy and acceptance.
However, we should not encourage our children to deliberately embrace this type of unnatural lifestyle, especially for those who are by nature not LGBTQ. They should not be encourage to experiment in such a lifestyle. Such partners cannot officially marry and have children, although now there is a movement that claims that man can give birth - maybe in the 4th industrial revolution? Also, the concern is whether such a lifestyle would end up introducing diseases like HIV and monkeypox. If a person, child or adult, decides to have a sex change operation, this operation is irreversible.
There is a need to show acceptance and empathy towards the LGBTQ, but such a lifestyle must never be encouraged or even deemed acceptable in our society.
[4:12 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: don't intentionally miss the point ....
[4:13 pm, 20/07/2022] +lesli: https://str.sg/wEMp
๐ง
[4:14 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
What turn me off is his conversation content and not the loud noise.
And as he sit directly opposite me, and glance at me occasionally as he speaks - clearly he want me to hear what he want to say.
[4:16 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: How do you feel about consuming Sharks' Fin soup? Assuming most people nowadays are against it, how would you feel if someone at a Chinese wedding dinner banquet - which traditionally/used to serve Sharks Fin soup - starts speaking loudly about how consuming Sharks' Fin soup is good etc etc and we should bring back the tradition of serving Sharks Fin soup at every celebration/banquet?
[4:18 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Pls learn to read
[4:19 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Or maybe he noticed the way you were looking him and felt self conscious/nervous?
[4:20 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
I don't want to guess.
Because I am quietly surfing my net with my smartphone.
I don't look down at people.
[4:21 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: You said you guessed he wanted you to hear what he was saying. You are right not to assume what he wanted.
[4:23 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
If everyone is looking at him with discomfort - he obviously don't know when to stop until he alighted.
[4:25 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Big deal or small matter!?
[4:29 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Ok, so 1 guy is inconsiderate on the MRT, many people are. Not sure how this relates to the topic.
[4:29 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: INTENTIONALLY CONFRONTATIONAL comes to mind ... rather than self-conscious/nervous
[4:29 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Who knows. Neither you nor I were there.
[4:30 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: I am only as sure as you .. you are right. ,.. we both were not there... Danny was. But that didn't stop you from being so sure that Danny was wrong to assume
[4:31 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: And that his story didn't make sense/irrelevant to the point
[4:33 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: And that is what I have been saying is one of the issues of proponents of the LGBTQ issue.... you love to play victim and poiint fingers, but never seem to look yourselves in the mirror and see how you are "cancelling". denouncing, undermining and ignoring the feelings of others
[4:35 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: Well said, Ann!
[4:38 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: It goes both ways. Actions/reactions are reciprocal. If you want to be aggressive and push hard for an agenda, then be prepared that there will be people who will be forced to push back equally hard, because they care about the opposite agenda.
And guess ultimately, who will win? The VOCAL minority? Or the silent MAJORITY who are forced to not stay silent anymore?
[4:39 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, he was making an assumption
[4:39 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: And so were you
[4:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: At least he was there.. in person
[4:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, there are some in the community are aggressive and unpleasant, but that doesn't mean the whole community should be alienated. The same is true for any group of people.
[4:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: What was my assumption?
[4:41 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
This accurately reflect the situation in the MRT.
He is trying to push his LGBTQ agenda.
The majority is hearing it and displaying negative sentiment.
[4:41 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Nobody is saying "THE WHOLE COMMUNITY" .. so stop making straw man argumens
[4:41 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, good point!
[4:41 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: You forgot what you "said"? Just scroll up and look at all your comments
[4:41 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
In fact after he left, I overheard someone saying he should stop talking about the gay issue in the public.
[4:42 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: I did. Can't see any assumption I made. Please point it out if you feel it is of value.
[4:43 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
My wife equally upset.
[4:44 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: Stop cooking up drama in your head. This is absolutely one sided and subjective. Just like how some people think people are out to get them
[4:45 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: I can't do anything about it, if you intentionally choose to be blind to the truth. You were not present. You don't know who that person Danny was talking about was, you didn't hear exactly what was said. I can go on.... but you were making a lot of comments, which can only be based on assumptions, about what "actually" happened
[4:45 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: I agree, it's not a topic for the MRT, and he does sound inconsiderate from your description. I don't think he is representative of LGBTQ people.
[4:45 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Why so triggered? ๐
[4:46 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: So you can't find any assumptions that I made?
[4:46 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: You make up imaginary stories about things in your head and tell it like it's facts
[4:46 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Oh well I am relating a real situation in the MRT confirm by my wife.
If this is cooking a drama so be it.
I stay with what I say
[4:46 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: "omg he looked at me he seems to be wanting me to listen"
[4:46 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: i can't speak stupid.. only English... so, if you still don't get it ...
[4:46 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: no wait.. it all makes sense now
[4:46 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: your "logic"
[4:47 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Here you go - are you calling me Stupid? I remember you now.
[4:47 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: "seems to be" << that is an expression of opinion from the writer
[4:47 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Don't they teach English in school anymore?
[4:47 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: Which part of cooking up drama in your head don't you understand
[4:48 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: X happened and you cooked up ABC stories about it
[4:48 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Oh you mean I am telling a lie about the incident?
[4:49 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: Why should anyone believe you hello?
[4:49 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: Anyone can write anything they want
[4:49 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Oh dear... you mean my statement wasn't clear enough? ๐ Oh sorry.. I shouldn't assume .. .I don;t know you.. so I must be wrong .. at best a misguided assumption
[4:49 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: That's literally how all the online shit sites operate
[4:49 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: They find people like you make up nonsensical stories in their head about incidents and then pass it off as facts
[4:49 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ: So be it.
You don't have to believe.
Anyway it won't change my opinion about the LGBTQ issue.
[4:51 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Report me if you say I lie.
I got witness that this is a true incident.
[4:52 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Chill guys… we are here to talk and debate.
Don’t get too emotional.
All have a place to share and speak up.
[4:52 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: No it wasn't clear.
[4:53 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Then how should I get back my reputation being defame that I lie?
[4:53 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: Whatever it is, whether it happened the way it did in your interpretation in your head or not, the truth is that the vast majority of LGBT folks are not like that.
[4:54 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
So now you take back your words that I did not lie on the incident.
[4:54 pm, 20/07/2022] +~Jun ๅฎ: I don't really care
[4:54 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Be careful if you don't understand defamation.
[4:54 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
Let’s be courteous to one another so that we can have a conducive discussion.
We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
๐๐ผ Gentle reminder on Terms of Use: http://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms
Megan
[4:59 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
I have downloaded the conversation and keep it for record purposes.
If I suffer any reputation damage I reserve the right to take legal action.
[5:02 pm, 20/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: ๐ฑ๐๐๐๐ค
[5:03 pm, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: Sometimes it’s necessary to be vocal in order to push certain agendas. Imagine if women don’t push for equal rights proactively, they will still be considered a lesser being
[5:04 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: ๐ need or not… seriously
Based on REACH guideline you are not allow to use for any purpose. This is to provide a safe chat room for conducive engagement if I am not wrong
[5:05 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
It doesn't mean that a person can defame another person saying he lies without evidence.
[5:06 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: When you join you agree with the guidelines already
[5:06 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
People can express different opinion - but not accusing another person of lying and defaming him.
[5:07 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
You mean this includes defaming others of lying when he is relating a real incident?
[5:08 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Just a fair reminder.. If don’t agree then nothing much I can do ๐คท๐ป♂️
I am not admin ๐ซฃ
[5:09 pm, 20/07/2022] +JC: Good luck trying to prove damages incurred. I congratulate your lawyers for making easy ๐ฐ
[5:09 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: http://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms
In case need to refer
[5:11 pm, 20/07/2022] +JC: Bo liao person trying to defend personal "honor" in a pretty much anonymous forum.
[5:11 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: ๐๐ค๐๐๐
[5:16 pm, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: Why so serious guys? Just stick and discuss on the topic for today
[5:18 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Someone asking to be served and to appear in court!?
[5:19 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: https://theindependent.sg/ang-mo-kio-sers-residents-upset-with-having-to-top-up-money-say-how-many-more-years-must-i-actually-work-to-pay-off-all-my-debts/
[5:37 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: but you were so clear and sure about everything else it seems ... hmmmm
[5:38 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: No one is disputing that "vast majority of LGBT folks are not like that" ... which also means you agree that SOME (or a very small minority) are "like that" ... so what exactly, are you upset about now? ๐
[5:39 pm, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: I think the school leaders should have vet through his slides before giving a talk on such a sensitive topic before hand. In order to teach students on Sex Education, the educator needs to be trained in order to qualify to teach. In that course, educators are taught that they will need to teach in a factual, non-bias, non-judgemental way.
In this case not counsellor not only presented false claims on LGBT, he also sort of evangelised by using a video from Truelove.is, which is a Christian church that “specialised” on LGBT. I think this issue is also deeply concerning, as the school is supposed to be secular, and yet the counsellor is pushing his personal agenda on a secular platform, with his target audience being underaged and easily influenced.
What if his young audiences really believed that he presented, and started to discriminate his classmates who may be publicly/privately gay? Imagine the psychological damage it may cause.
[5:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: I did not say it is not necessary .... my point is, if any one side push their agenda too far, before the other side is ready to accept, then there will be push back.
[5:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +Elena Woo: If you receive this, this is a phishing scam. DON'T click on the link
[5:43 pm, 20/07/2022] +Timothy Low: https://truelove.is/article/response-allegations-conversion-therapy-hci-incident/
[5:44 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: that is true. But what is also true - as someone who has successfully sued someone for libel, which this by the way, would be, instead of defamation - is that the legal cost in this case, far outweighs the potential damages you can claim in the event you win/ The ultimate winners, most likely will be the lawyers ๐
[5:47 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Brudder, I would suggest to not take these comments/accusations too seriously. A lot of crazies making all sorts of comments. Won't be surprised a lot are just trolls. No point getting too upset either way. Sometimes we give (it to "them"), sometimes we take. End of the day, life goes on. This should not consume your life ๐
[5:50 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Lying is serious.
And especially so if this is a government forum to elicit feedback - that help to shape government policies.
Accusing other of lying without evidence is also serious - because he is defaming another person when that person is relating a real incident.
I have just checked with my witness whether she remembers the MRT incident - and she say she remembers.
[5:51 pm, 20/07/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
I have not decided to take any action yet - unless I received any feedback that my reputation has been damaged.
[5:57 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, the lack of monitoring and background checks in place is most worrying
[5:58 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: It's fair to say your reputation has not been damaged. Many of us here are vocal about our thoughts. As long as there are no personal insults I think we are OK. There's only one person on this group that likes to use personal insults, and even Admin don't do anything about it
[6:02 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: ๐ขTopic๐ข
On 18 July, Hwa Chong Institution (HCI) reprimanded and suspended a male school counsellor from conducting sexuality education lessons after presenting discriminatory content against LGBTQ people to students.
“We are aware of the incident, which took place during a presentation on sexuality where a staff member incorporated content outside the scope of the Ministry of Education’s (MOE) sexuality education curriculum into his slides,” the HCI spokesman responded.
The spokesman said the school takes a serious view of the incident and will review its processes to ensure such cases are not repeated.
๐ฌ What are your views on this incident? How do you think we can discuss sensitive issues in a balanced manner?
• HCI principal Pang Choon How addressed the Secondary 4 cohort on the incident on Monday morning, acknowledging students’ concerns about the presentation and assuring them the school counsellor’s views were personal and not representative of the school’s position.
• In a statement, LGBTQ community group Pink Dot SG said the presentation used fabricated statistics and gave misinformation about the LGBTQ community that is harmful and aimed at instilling fear and shame.
• To chalk this incident up to the actions of one rogue counsellor ignores systemic issues of inadequate sexuality education, the group added.
๐๐ป https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/hwa-chong-institution-staff-lgbtq-discriminatory-claims-presentation-sexuality-education-reprimanded-2817726
๐๐ป https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/parenting-education/hwa-chong-reprimands-staff-member-suspends-him-from-sexuality-education-over-anti-lgbtq-content
[6:03 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: that is true.. but so is legal costs and damages . Like someone pointed out, you have to prove financial lost due to the libel .. and unless your networth more than your lawyer ...otherwise ... all you get is ไธๅฃๆฐ ๐
[6:05 pm, 20/07/2022] +JC: your reputation might have been damaged... but not in the way you might have expected ๐
[6:09 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: The best defence against libel/defamation, is to prove that those statements are factual and/or if not factual, that the assumptions are JUSTIFIED.
For example, when you explain multiple times a simple idea/concept to a person, dumbing it down multiple times and level and yet the person still doesn't get it, it is JUSTIFIED to assume that a person may be STUPID and you make a statement to that effect.
And the person who is called STUPID, will also have a hard time claiming that he suffered personally hurt and/or reputation damage when he/she is not easily identifiable eg. using initials for his/her Whatsapp profile ... no photo etc
Lastly, since this will be a civil case if it goes to court, it helps if you can afford a "good" lawyer or lawyers.
[6:14 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: Dear contributors, please be reminded to be respectful and considerate to others in this WhatsApp chat group. REACH will not tolerate any disrespectful behaviour.
This is a second reminder to keep to the topic that is being discussed today. If you have already provided your views on the topic, do give other contributors a chance to share their views as well.
[6:25 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Looks like REACH has a very specific and narrow definition of who is being disrespectful/inconsiderate.
If you - one of the REACH Admins, whoever you are - have a problem with how I am always calling out fools, then feel free to remove me from this chat/forum.
I sometimes use this to occupy pockets of free time only anyways,
As long as I am still in this chat/forum, I will continue to comment freely, to both the REACH topic and other "contruibutors"' comments whenever and however I deem fit.
[6:32 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: We have been here before.... you are insulting to people on this forum, often me.
[6:33 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: What is actually the tolerance level for reach admin!?
[6:35 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Bad habit.. I see open goal, I shoot to score. I can imagine its not nice to be at the receiving end of those shots, so my humble advise, is, don't create opportunities like that so often,. This is as simple as I can go. Sorry.. pai seh ๐
[6:35 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/hpb-mom-and-sla-spent-151-billion-from-jan-2020-to-march-2021-on-covid-19-fight
[6:36 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Calling me stupid is because you don't know how to use logic or reason. You just resort to insults.
[6:37 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: So unfair.. why you never ask what is a reasonable level to suffer fools? ๐
[6:37 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: If we are all so stupid and foolish, why are you here?
[6:38 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Not necessarily as the rest of us don't get to know how they handle those who step out of line!
[6:38 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: I think you find it funny entertaining, as a way to boost your ego. Insuting and criticising others makes up for your lack of self esteem. It's just like a bully.
[6:39 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: NO .. that is not true hor. It was only after numerous attempts at explainin, simplifying, and dumbing down, and yet you stil don't "get it" that I concluded that you are the "S"-word leh .. its my opinion and assumption only leh ๐
[6:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: And... I didn't say EVERYONE else the S-word ... you on the other hand, are insinuating that with your statement
[6:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Actually you were totally unable to find evidence of me making assumptions, so you just decide to throw insults around.
[6:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Are the rest of us here watching certain adults behaving like tiddlers!?
[6:40 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: You state more than one fool, so yes not just me.
[6:41 pm, 20/07/2022] +BL: Yes, we have seen all this before. He has been warned twice or three times and yes he mocks admin by saying g he will do whatever he wants to whoever he wants. Just like a bully.
[6:41 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: ๐คฆ♂️๐๐
[6:47 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: If calling out fools/foollish comments = step out of line, then I am guilty as charged
So, you already have seen that REACH has quite a tolerance level for such behavior + I have described the circumstances under which my bad habit of calling out fools/foolish comments will surface....
How is it that, it never crosses your mind that maybe... just maybe the person just need to stop making foolish comments with so much gumption?
Anyway... REACH did nothing to the person who was going on and on on Danny that he was lying even though all he did was share a recent experience on the MRT .,.. neither did they stop the person I used the S-word on when he just went on challenging every one's comments with assumptions
And REACH didn't stop you either, when you fo…
[6:48 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Curious to know the threshold for action.
[6:48 pm, 20/07/2022] +danielhl chua: It seems like MOE is treading on thin ice when conducting sexuality education. I rem SJI had an issue with sexuality education too when they invite someone from LGBTQ community to speak to school.
What is a good way to talk abt the bees and the birds?
Perhaps, MOE can come up with a curriculum instead of relying on the schools to minimise misrepresentation.
Coincidentally, I was following Calleen Koh's film "To kill the Birds and Bees" being nominated for BAFTA. We do have wonderful talents who are recognised internationally. The film explores topics like sexuality, abortion and pregnancy.
[6:48 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Ohhh... is that an assumption or a fact? And what is that? Name calling? REACH REACH REACH ...do something please ... ๐
[6:49 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: lost for words .. you win ๐
[6:50 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: They will not intervene in anyway unless go out of hand ๐คฃ
[6:50 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Call how many times also no use
[6:50 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 10 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan
[6:50 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: Please be reminded that abuse, bullying and personal attacks on fellow contributors will not be condoned.
[6:51 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: not just you does not equate to EVERYONE ... I recommend revisiting P5 maths topic on Set and Subsets
[6:52 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: This, in layman terms, we call sh*t-stirring .... lets see if Admin takes your bait again
[6:52 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: likewise
[6:53 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: Definition of out of hand!?
[6:54 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: ๐คท๐ป♂️ don’t know…
Lol.. I always debate with Danny over food topic lol.. but still ok leh.. ๐
[6:54 pm, 20/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Repeat so much also don’t get flag.. I also give up
[6:55 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Are you referring to how "BL" and " Rama" are going on and on about me as attacking?
[6:55 pm, 20/07/2022] +Rama: ๐ ๐คฃ๐
[6:56 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Just because I don't run to Admin for "help" whenever I lose an argument, does not mean I am not being bullied....wait... sorry .. i haven't lsot an argument yet
[6:56 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: ๐
[6:56 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: lost*
[6:57 pm, 20/07/2022] +Smiley face: A good point raised, hi Danielhl!
[6:57 pm, 20/07/2022] +Joseph: Its been fun .. going makan now.. ttyl
[6:58 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
Please be reminded of the Terms of Use: "You shall not use the Group to, or when accessing or participating in the Group, shall not:
upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that:
is or may be unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libellous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, religiously, ethnically or otherwise objectionable, irrelevant to REACH's purposes or irrelevant to the existing/ ongoing discussion(s). REACH has the sole discretion to decide if any Content falls within these said categories;"
The full terms of use can be found here: https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms
If you fail to comply, *REACH reserves the right to issue you an official warning. After your third warning, you will be removed from the group.
We appreciate your cooperation in keeping the chatgroups a safe and conducive space for all. Thank you!
[7:01 pm, 20/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan
=====
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