REACH 370 - How do you feel about the revised SERS options for current and future projects? What more can the Government do to promote housing affordability?
(SK)
06 Jul 2022 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[10:03 am, 06/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
Welcome back! π
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[10:15 am, 06/07/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
Over the weekend, HDB announced that under Sers, eligible home owners will be allowed to buy a new three-room replacement unit or larger flat on a 50-year-lease, instead of a fresh 99-year one.
Additionally, another option allows eligible elderly home owners to take up the lease buyback scheme for their existing flat.
They can then buy a new replacement flat on a shorter lease after selling the lease to HDB.
π¬ How do you feel about the revised SERS options for current and future projects? What more can the Government do to promote housing affordability?
Minister Desmond Lee said HDB introduced these options in recognition of the challenges faced by older residents.
Previously, home owners were not eligible to apply for the lease buyback scheme after their flat has been announced for SERS.
Minister Lee shared that these additional options are offered with seniors in mind, allowing them to have a “home-for-life” and live in new flats in a familiar environment, while addressing their concerns around topping up for a replacement flat of comparable type or size.
ππΌ https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/sers-ang-moh-kio-rehousing-options-future-projects-desmond-lee-2788946
ππΌ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/nearly-all-540-ang-mo-kio-sers-residents-need-not-top-up-for-new-flats-if-they-take-up-50-year-lease
ππΌ https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/sers-replacement-flats-50-year-lease-hdb-lease-buyback-ang-mo-kio-2786411
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[10:19 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If they take up the 50 years lease is pretty much hard to sell afterward π
[10:23 am, 06/07/2022] +BL: I think the intention is that they have a home for life, rather than assets to leave their kids.
[10:24 am, 06/07/2022] +BL: There is no magic wand, and the lease system (rather than freehold) ensures Singapore remains for Singaporeans. It's good to see the Gov take swift action to ensure people are not worried about if they will have a home, or be forced in rental.
[10:35 am, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Can’t pass generation to children
[10:36 am, 06/07/2022] +Uncle Law: If pass to kids, provided they not owning any pty. Else they have to sell also
[10:40 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If they want they pay a bit more lor…
[10:40 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: After the 50 years I wonder what scheme will they come out to clear the 50 year left flat
[10:40 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: No answer for that
[10:43 am, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: The children will get nothing from parent when HDB is short lease run out of expire and valuation $0
The children hope understand to earn themselves.
If those are lucky freehold pass generation child will get nothing worry and won’t go hungry.
[10:44 am, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: The children will get nothing from parent when HDB is short lease run out of expire and valuation $0
The children hope understand to earn themselves.
If those are lucky freehold pass generation child won’t get nothing to worry and won’t go hungry.
[10:52 am, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: Good question. Sometimes HDB act like corporate. Do now to rectify uproar then leave the repercussions to the next CEO haha..
[10:54 am, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: Like doing a buy back lease. My neighbor took it and now no place to stay. Had to move to Bali to stay with son
[11:11 am, 06/07/2022] +Sh Koh: HDB can afford to be a little more generous. As the new projects at the same site can yield many more units and also will be selling at higher price. Unlike private enbloc programme, owners usually get generous compensation. Perhaps HDB can consider a higher Levy for a comparable replacement unit when sold or transfer. Instead of present measures.
[11:11 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Prevent people from buying SERS flat for these kind of compensation
[11:12 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Over the years HDB had become arrogant took decision over the owner's right ,
From 99yrs lease to now Ser Scheme 50yrs it was utterly rubbish to the affected owner's
I not sure how many years from now Singaporean will lost the trust on HDB based on Stagnant Policy & Lack of Human Touch on the ground
But I definitely believe if HDB if really become deaf that day
Singapore would benefits from new Housing Development Board when✌️ handover ✌️
[11:12 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If people all know it is going to earn a lot more
[11:18 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: Huh? Giving option and more choices also wrong. Give you a new flat, I thought is a damn good deal. But due to circumstances, some people may not need a fresh 99 years lease. Then lease buy back or 50 years lease to give flexibility to those who want shorter lease is deemed as authoritarian approach. What is the correct approach then?
[11:19 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Option is good.. but the problem behind we won’t know till 50 years later π€£
[11:20 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: As more of such projects open up
[11:20 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: We do see our newly built HDB flat was getting smaller then 20yrs or 30yrs ,
Why would HDB dare to built this unreasonable & deductible flat to us,
It's because HDB taking Singaporean for granted
Whenever HDB built the flat ,
We will just buy up the flat anyway
How sad Singaporean can be live like that todayπ ♂️π ♂️
[11:21 am, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: When short will run out lease they are still alive at age 100+ and no money how do they live?
[11:21 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Technically they can get the 99years then sell back the years left to HDB still better than 50 years lease no?
[11:21 am, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: Yeah. Creating a unique Singaporean experience rather than knee jerk reactions without thinking of the repercussions. Like how we deal with the covid and the opening up. It was brilliant thinking. Mark of excellent, dynamics, Forward thinking and strategic politicians and policies
[11:22 am, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Some singaporean family out of country they stay in Malaysia affordable and somewhere
[11:24 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Forward thinking it was bullshit to me,
When the Covid number number up will starts to kick in restriction on Hospital & nursing home
What sort of opening up & forward thinking is that
We do have a price to paid
After all
[11:25 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: If I am out of money and still alive, I would rather stay in a home fully funded by government and taken care of by qualified health care workers then living in a 50 year old flat. How to get fully funded, you can pm meπ
[11:25 am, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Not good for Singapore long term.. culture dilution
[11:25 am, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Slipped in a clause unknowingly to those affected and then back track to offer shorter lease!? Arrogant and indifferent to the problems caused by them!
[11:27 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: As I said , HDB to me 1/5 that how the HDB services to me
[11:29 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: There was adjustment on sizes of the flat until 1997. Since then HDB flat size has not been getting smaller.
[11:30 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Perhaps change a new logo , it's change the mindset fundamentally
[11:30 am, 06/07/2022] +Doris Ho: Why don't you let them have the option of 50 years and 99 years.. ??
[11:31 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Smaller not adjustment,
Don't bluff yourself
[11:32 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: Nevertheless, there is an increase in smaller flat being built due to demographic changes and mindset change. More elderly and elderly don't not like to live with children.
[11:33 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Adjustment from Government point of view,
But the majority of Singaporean acknowledge the flat getting smaller
It's was absolutely the damn truth
[11:33 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: Correct. Smaller flat till 1997. Your statement says newly built HDB. Perception is always different from facts.
[11:37 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Maybe the truth it was Government & HDB always believed they are doing very well to our people
However , people on the dosent felt the same
Maybe HDB felt good for themselves
[11:39 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: My ideal HDB role flexibility kick in case by case
Every policy can be negotiate
From time to time
[11:40 am, 06/07/2022] +RH: +1
[11:40 am, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Maybe consider the following:
Implement a hefty tax on capital gains and additional taxes for buyers on the cash over valuation portion of the sale.
Sellers can only return the flat to HDB rather than sell it on the open market.
Sell the flat with a clause that allows HDB to disgorge profits above a pre-set level. Maybe have the price appreciation capped at GDP growth rates and pre-set resale price set at the lower of valuation price or appreciated price pegged to GDP growth rate.
The idea is to prevent re-sale prices from rising to ridiculous levels.
[11:42 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: Our housing policy is an envy for other country. Not only high level of ownership, it serves dual purpose of providing a shelter and a retirement funding options when we can right size the flat or do a lease buy back . There may be some issues generated by one policy fit all approach. Nevertheless, government agency always look into appeals and grant them on case by case basis. Nevertheless, it is not helpful to have a sweeping statement on how HDB has failed us. Rather, feedback on which specific area that can be improved. There is always trade off on policy and it can satisfy everyone.
[11:43 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Just like to those lower income ask for deferment for HIP still have to paid interest annually
Is the way HDB bullying the Lower Income Group of Singaporean
Since I know it,
How am I to praise HDB
NO WAY
[11:44 am, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: HDB stay affordable but everything is $$$$
[11:45 am, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Correct! Hi Sam!
Since the founding of the People's Republic in 1949, China has experienced severe shortages of housing space, deteriorating housing conditions, and overcrowding. With the open-door policies of the present government, however, China has invested more funds in housing and is trying to improve the general situation.
[11:45 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Alot of time HDB kept said that
Doing good for people ,
But in a disheartening way or what
[11:47 am, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Caixin/In-depth-Will-subsidized-housing-stabilize-the-real-estate-industry
[11:48 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: This is quite a difficult issue to tackle. People should not benefit insanely from a subsidised flat. Yet free market should decide on the pricing. Unless, just like the PLPH scheme that you set the restriction upfront, it is difficult to impose new restriction on existing flat
[11:48 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: I think HDB should study more & acknowledged the people on the ground are suffer
If continue
HDB will be Crumble & lost the Singapore trust
On the board
[11:50 am, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2016/09/23/this-is-what-public-housing-looks-like/1211737
[11:52 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Demolish of HDB board in Charge ,
Set up a new board with individual truthfully to think about the Singaporean rather then profit or interest
Re look at the people needs
That's the fundamental
Wake Up H+B
[11:52 am, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Malaysia never upgrade new project nor the lease run out
[11:53 am, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Frankie, yupp, you got it!
[11:53 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Compare will never let Singaporean feel better
[11:53 am, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Pricing and affordability issues?
[11:53 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: π ♂️π ♂️
[11:54 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: I wondering still got people compare to our neighbors country
[11:54 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Self check on our ground
Will make us look better
[11:54 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: I think is is equivalent to our rental flat. Not HDB public housing.
[11:55 am, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Sam,
Home ownership program vs Home Renting program
[11:56 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: That's why HDB after all this year's still have not answer it well
[11:56 am, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Just a stagnant policy
[11:57 am, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Yes. it’s not easy. I think they should expand on the PLPH scheme. And make the prices much lower so that people think twice about paying ridiculous sums for resale HDB. So far, from personal and extended family experience, it’s PRs who are ones who are more ready to pay the higher prices .. which then forces everyone else to follow suit
[11:57 am, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: In UK, 2/3 are rental occupants.
Perhaps is a long term cultural and norms to rent than own residential properties?
[11:58 am, 06/07/2022] +Sam: HDB started many years ago when the nation was poor. We are doing a lot of catch up now to improve on older estate. Covered walk way, drop off point, landscape garden etc. Only when we have a caring government, these are in progress. If you live in a private estate, any improvement will be from own pocket.
[11:59 am, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: That's public space vs private space.
The TC will have it hands on maintenance, that's one of their core duties.
Private space will be dealt by MCST.
[0:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sam: I think there are also the private property downgrader who stop appreciating the common facilities such as pools and high maintenance fees. They have the money to pay for the choice unit that seldom come by.
[0:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: What's the pricing like for 4 rm matured estate flats vs near city 4 rm flats? Assuming same floor size for both.
In terms of percentage difference?
[0:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB was old name with many restriction , interest rate still remain high until we old we may not fully able to pay all loans
It was on the ground sentiment for more 3 decades
Not today ,but long time ago
[0:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Start from $550k with 88sqm
[0:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: MOP 10 year
[0:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: It can be cost uo to $600 monthly for newer private projects vs the older apartments which are affordable on the maintenance sinking funds monthly fees.
[0:03 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Typical 3rm flat monthly TC maintenance $45 and utilities $100 for 2 ti 3 occupants... That's $150 monthly fixed living cost...
How about 4rm, 5 rm and exec flats?
[0:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sam: This can be a lot to a retiree. While there is support on utilities bills and S&CC from government for HDB dwellers
[0:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Multi story parking $85 monthly?
[0:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: $300 to $3k different areas in mature and non mature
[0:05 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Yes Frankie,
High end multi millions Condo can be $1600 monthly!
[0:05 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Also no provide budget for U-save
[0:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Gardening, pools, lifts, lighting, security guards etc all are big bills items for private projects!
[0:07 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Perhaps, HDB needs to recount especially for 3 and 4 rm FIRST TIME owners, how to assist them in putting their first investment to work?
"let your money work hard or you work harder for your money...?
- - annoymous
[0:11 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: The idea is 3rm and 4rm should be the baseline for some young couples, their starting point in life and a journey towards the formation of their family unit.
Supports must be rendered to our young ones!
Putting aside politics and so on.
We need HOPES AND HOPEFULNESS for our next gens and our existing generations!
These are economics and social gaps that social scientists, housing experts and policymakers need to dive deeper to resolve the always EVOLVING demographics of any nation at any point of a lifetime!
[0:12 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: "so important, that ROOF above our heads..."
- - annoys
[0:15 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: When land is scare, like Singapore or NYC... There bound to be unintended beneficiaries and casualties of economics dislocation and displacements.
The next challenge is to REALIGN as much as closer these economics discomfortness for those citizens whom are compromised whether is it a lease issue or a pricing issue or a short changed issue.
How to level up the playing and paying fields, this case always a precious commodity that is housing and land use for all of us?
[0:18 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: In 1960 to 1985, it took HDB to allocate public housing from slums to leveled flats for close to 2 million citizens.
In 1960, the population are badly displaced in terms of the quality of living standards. 12 person in one dwelling! The population then was 1.89 million.
After 60 years, today, Singaporeans alone standing at 3.5 millions.
[0:22 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Next, we further assume that thr first 2 million are comfortably homed and the outlying jobs now is the 1.5 million that need to be aligned adequately. With it the higher standards, expectations and aspirations or a spectrum of needs and wants which are resounding these days in media and today's chat talk.
How policymakers and URA going to address these rising Middle class citizens to a new plateau of comforts? While same time working on land acquisitions and reuse for various economics urgent needs without infringing upon individual families daily living?
[0:27 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: https://www.singstat.gov.sg/find-data/search-by-theme/households/households/latest-data
[0:28 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: What the purpose of the data ?
[0:28 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: HDB building more than condominium and land private home?
[0:32 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: What happen in the future Singapore not enough land where to building another HDB?
[0:32 pm, 06/07/2022] +RH: Firstly, the sudden change and announcement of the SERS takeover in AMK was a shock to everyone.
The fact tt ppl had to fork out 10's or 100's of thousand dollars to buy new flats was even more shocking!
HDB shd hv thought it over more carefully and prepared us for this (that we had to buy a new flat, that we had to pay more).
Secondly, it was terribly executed.
I feel for the residents who hv bn rudely dislodged.
Thirdly, which part of
"I don't want to move at all!"
that HDB does not understand !!! π
50-year lease,
Lease buy back scheme,
Whatever schemes ...
Just do not make sense. They just look like some impromptu made up measures to appease the angry crowd!!
Look, HDB, if u r alredi in your 70's, and hv bn living in it for past 50 years or so, thinking to retire here...
Wud u wanna move?
You hv fully paid for the flat & hv no more financial worries at this age, as u prepare to retire happily ...
Wud you want to be burdened w having to do it all over again?
And worse, wher is the $$ gg to come from at this age, when u hv just enuff for your retirement?
For ppl of this 70+ generation, when we bought an HDB flat, we were under the impression then tt HDB wud do right by us , as in, they wud not kick us out like wat is happening in AMK.
Therefore, despite watever schemes hv bn dreamt up , these seem off the cuff, and do not solve the problem.
I would expect the solution to be :
1. A one for one replacement (by room type) of my existing flat. Or an equivalentvreplacement in terms of size. See pt #5 below.
Meaning, u take my 4-room, u give me back a 4-room, or a 5-room or jumbo by today's standards.
2. At no cost or minimal cost to me.
Not make me go borrow money again to pay for the replacement flat.
3. Ideally, replacement flat to be in same neighbourhood, if not, give me a choice.
4. The age of the flat should exceed my projected lifespan.
5. Technically, replacing one for one is just the tip of the iceberg.
A 4-room flat many years ago could be >100 sq m in size.
Today, we wud be lucky if the 4-room
flat is even near 90sq m!
That's about one-room size reduction in terms of space!
That being the case, perhaps some form of compensation shd be given by HDB, instead of making us pay for the new flat, if the new replacement is much smaller than our old place?
See wher I'm coming from?
So, enuff said, the best is to replace one type for one type or equivalent (in terms of size).
Then u wud not hv dissatisfied residents.
6. To stop speculation & profiteering, HDB shd state tt such flats may be taken bk upon death of owner or set a max market value (or %age) on the selling price of the flat if sold in a certain time period or time frame.
Essentially, it is the financial burden tt is so shocking to everyone and loss of sense of permanency in shelter.
Also, the feeling of displacement and sense of inequity is unsettling and makes us wonder, if u come out with this today, wat wl u think of next ?
How can HDB assure us citizens that ther will be
"A Home for Every Singaporean" ? π€
[0:34 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Btw Single male serve NS can only BTO non mature estate I also not happy . What we protecting ?
[0:34 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Age 35 above single for 2 room
[0:35 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Age is okay but I think location and min 3 room
[0:35 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Since when we old NS pass away single lease goes back to Gov
[0:36 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: I have not heard of it. Only I know HDB rule age 35 above allow single buy for 2 room
[0:36 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Only non mature estate
[0:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Or they can buy resale any 3-ex room with age 35 above
[0:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Secondly why 3 room ?
[0:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Be more flexible age should not set a minimum age for single desire to own a flat
Another stagnant policy again by HDB
[0:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: U pay for me Ah
[0:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: I don’t agree
[0:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: It not fair to old NS wor
[0:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sam: It is all about the constraints we have and who we want to give the priority. We can only built certain number of flat in mature estate and everyone prefer mature estate. Who should be given priority? Family, elderly , lower income or single?
[0:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB set up all this foolish rules ,
For no reason
[0:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: So mean age 35 for single bto is okay why not only 3 room and must be at non mature area ?
[0:39 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Why new citizen can bto new big flats wor
[0:39 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: At town
[0:39 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: It’s not our decision rule. It’s set by HDB rule
[0:40 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Of course not ur decision
[0:40 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Wahahaha
[0:41 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Singapore Improved Trust (SIT) became HDB (Housing and Development Board to become an future !?
[0:41 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sam: All those live in mature estate are not likely to move into non mature estate, we have limited land in mature estate. We can only build more in non mature estate. So what is the solution? If we start to look at the solution, we probably will understand why certain policy is made in such a way.
[0:41 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Means HDB are useless to meet our needs
By your words
It cannot fulfill our wish to live alone as all single dreams
[0:42 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: As I said, Constraint means no freedom to choose to our livable flat for ourselves
[0:43 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Their HDB are for the poorest of the poor. No one stay there… unless no choice..
I been there.. my grandparents used to stay there. 30 years back still not as bad.
[0:43 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sam: It is about choice. First timer is guaranteed to get a BTO in non mature estate within 3 tries. Yet many continue to go for balloting in mature estate after more than 10 failures.
[0:43 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: But based on HDB stagnant policy here we go againπ ♂️π ♂️
[0:43 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Yes in Malaysia public housing.
[0:44 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Here we go again compare Malaysia ahhππ
[0:44 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Why drag Malaysia in ? We taking about Singapore
[0:44 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Are u all Singapore citizen or Malaysia citizen with sg pr ?
[0:44 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Roundable talks , we can't get out of the mirror
[0:46 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB pls wake up ,
Our citizen still think Malaysia can compare with us
[0:46 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Seen people get very front number(below 100).. yet don’t choose cause not that they wanted. π they only have a few they will choose. See Liao puke blood
[0:47 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Malaysia crime rate higher than Singapore which is not safe from home. Even they poor in family they don’t robbed them.
[0:47 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Malaysia cannot compare… there no one want to stay.
Here everyone want to buy lol
[0:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Please go back to hdb stop talking about Malaysia
[0:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: If u live in KL rich ppl want to buy but government has right collect taxpayer foreigners
[0:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Frankie why keep talking about Malaysia?
[0:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Are u Malaysian born ?
[0:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Cause they don’t family here…
Having them the choice to buy bigger to hope they settle down here..
but thought can only buy resale? Have the rules changed?
[0:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: We should design our HDB rather then HDB draw Singapore this & that
For HDB should give everyone freedom to choose ,
But do not set up rules for single age lah this & that lah
Otherwise HDB is not for the Singaporean ,
Only for Government drawing us the boundaries only
[0:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB should work for us
It seems like we heading the opposite direction
[0:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Government welcome foreigner as long as they invest business to convert new citizenship. Up to them want to buy condominium or HDB
[0:53 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: High income they can buy resale but not for BTO
[0:53 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: No wonder keep talking about Malaysia
[0:54 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB should pirotise lower & medium group instead built all the bigger unit
[0:54 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: We are all descendent of immigrants…
Seriously.. are we becoming like US.
[0:56 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: the root of problems is …….. Haiz lunch time over see u all
[0:56 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB should Care more From 2 to 4 room flat buyer needs
Like interest free for salary below $20k annualy
[0:57 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: π what a cool idea
[0:57 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Fundamental change needed for HDB ,
In order to progress
[0:57 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: U low income then I congrats U
[0:57 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: All will live happily ever after
[0:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Only good & understand Government wil make our dreams come true
HDB should implement now
ASAT
[1:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Depends.. if there is no incentive to move upwards people get stuck.
I was from Low income family.. although I am doing much better now.
The help we have now is much better than last time.
[1:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Only crazy Govt will make your kind of dreams come true π
The day that happens, I am returning my SG Passport and leaving. π
[1:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Some refuse to move out of the cheap rent.. hence rather work Low income or no recorded work in order to get max incentive
[1:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It becomes a vicious loop, when people see it as a way of living
[1:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: But we received so much grand housing from government subsidy. Although we have to work repay loan is it fair other ppl get from us?
[1:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: I don't believe people will stuck themselves wish to be lower income
It would be awful to heard
As HDB role should be more graciously welcome low income to own their & flat having interest free loan
[1:03 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Loan but no interest
[1:03 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Did I mention it?
[1:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: The Bank wil have to do more ,in order to woo new flat owner
[1:05 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: how about roll out red carpet to give you money? Grant you loan that does not need to be repaid, ai mai? π
[1:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: How about YOU set up a bank to do that? Give out free loans... I confirm support you π
[1:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: ,I believed every individual want to live better they can pay loan only if they wish
Why not?✌️✌️
[1:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Have anyone tried earning less than $800 so you won’t get tax by CPF.
Cause that’s the lowest you can hit before taxing last time.
Imagine earn $800
Deduct by CPF become $640 π₯²
So either you earn more to $1000 in order to take home $800. That kind of time anyone tired?
[1:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: So money come from who to give to "everyone" for free leh?
[1:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Complement loan
[1:07 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: If I ask u to pay a sudden amount I can give U $100
[1:07 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: U should be glad & be please
[1:08 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB can't be greedy piggy
[1:10 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Just like you said..
HDB & CPF want everyone restless life
How sadly ahh ahh
[1:11 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: May I ask anyone salary below $2500 still buy insurance?
[1:11 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It is the tax we give in order to stay in Singapore. Try overseas no CPF eat what after you retire?
[1:11 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Yes my mum did for me
[1:11 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Endowment for 21 years NUTC plan
[1:12 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Woah
[1:12 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: $70 a month
[1:13 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Then $1500 have anot
[1:13 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: π
[1:13 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: My mum earn less than that
[1:13 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Tailor
[1:13 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Very brave ok goodππ
[1:15 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Reach tell Me Desmond more things to be done for Single buyer & Low & medium group
As well more variety needed & inclusion policy needed as well
[1:20 pm, 06/07/2022] +RH: Yes.
To build up income retirement.
Premium abt $100 per mth.
Tighten belt lor. π
[1:22 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: For me I mainly invest
Don’t do ILP not worth at all…
[1:23 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: For FY2022, if you are earning 25k/yr, and contributing CPF ... you pay the Grand Total of ZERO in taxes.
This is before the many many tax reliefs that you can get... which results in many people earning. At the top end, the Tax reliefs can amount to almost 60k ie. if you fall into a certain category and can claim all those reliefs, you can effective be earning 85k/yr9 and still pay *ZERO in taxes.
But lets just use the example of someone earning 25k/yr and contributions to his/her own CPF accordingly...
Income: 25k/yr >> Tax: $0
Income: 30k/yr >> Tax: $80
Income: 40k/yr >> Tax: $270
Income: 50k/yr >> Tax: $550
Income: 60k/yr >> Tax: $1110
[1:24 pm, 06/07/2022] +RH: Sori to jump in..
Not reading the 80+ msg b4 this ...
Rushing for work ...
ππ»comments fr my son abt BTO appn which he has tried 3x but was unsuccessful. Last time cud not post cos I ran out of time.
Reach ... Pls take note. Tq.
----------
1. People with queue numbers outside the flat supply should not be penalised when they choose not to buy a flat when people ahead of them drop out and they get invited to select.
2. The penalty of non selection count isn't fair since they issue queue numbers to 3 times of the supply.
3. Example 100 flats built, queue numbers issued to 300. The last few flats will consistently be rejected since it's usually 1sr floor / 2nd floor, near dustbin or some other unfavourable location. So queue numbers 90 to 100 will reject then they will keep inviting the queue numbers 101 to 300 to try to convince them to take these unfavourable units and if they don't all of them get slapped with a non-selection count.
That's all, for now. Tq.
[1:25 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: From the above, do you see now that you should be hoping to be paying $1110 (more) in taxes (and earning 60k./yr) than to be paying ZERO, but only earning 25k/yr?
[1:33 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Yup… in terms of income tax
[1:33 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Sounds like you will only be contented if everyone is given a GCB - with option to select location, design, fittings, size, colour, design etc, at low or no cost, if cost $, then Bank loan at 0%, no penalty if not repaid ie. no need to pay, house come with free electricity, water, gardener, maid, Rolls Royce for you, Mercedes for your maid, BMW for your gardener, free groceries, meat, fish, prawns, ver delivered to your doorstep....for life... no charge... on demand .. if single, maybe still need to arrange girlfriend and wife for you π
[1:35 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: π€£π€£π€£
[1:35 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Anyway, many of the people who are complaining Govt not giving out enough handouts, no heart, no brain etc etc... are also the ones who don't pay taxes π Not so much that they are earning too little to be paying taxes, but rather, self employed ones who are evading taxes
[1:36 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Self employed have their own risk.
[1:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +RH: With this incident in AMK, it looks like I wud not only hv to save for retirement, but hv to put aside for top up of flat in case this happens to me too!
My flat is curr 30 years old.
Wat r the chances of the same thing (AMK) happening to me?
I wud hate to be told I hv financial worries again! π π π
I wan a financially worry free retirement, HDB !
[1:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +Vivian: RH everyone wants that
[1:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +Vivian: Singapore impossible la...
[1:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: That’s a good question..
not everyone can afford HIP or SERS.
[1:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Although maybe Low amount but for those retired is a real concern
[1:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Everyone should be paying their fair share of taxes.
Employees also have their own set of risks....with limited upside.
Self-employed/Business owner assume greater risks... but also enjoy greater upside
[1:40 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Is a personal choice.. you want stable you have limited upside.
Business risk is higher hence the unlimited upside
[1:41 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: There is the option to SELL and move ...then those who WANT that location offered by the SERS, don't have to join BTO q. Win-win no?
[1:42 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Exactly.
I may have misunderstood your earlier comment, but I thought you were trying to suggest that it is ok for the self-employed to evade taxes because they (apparently) "have their own risks" ... which I disagree.
[1:44 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Lol self employed tax evades if you do legally can Liao…
Don’t break the law when there are lots of legal ways to reduce tax
[1:44 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Singapore so many scheme can use. Why need to do illegally
[1:47 pm, 06/07/2022] +Jess Sunga: Same sentiments.
Although we have fully paid our 30+years old flat, thinking that we will be financially free when we retire.
it looks like we will have again housing financial issues when we get old. How to cope when we no longer earning?
Is retirement no longer an option then? Die die must work.
[1:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Not sure about you, but the impression I have is that a lot of people would choose not to pay taxes if they can get away with not payiing
[1:49 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: π really? I don’t mind paying tax to be frank..
We pay very little tax to compare π
[1:49 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Since like you know alot , Maybe can share with IRAs so that we can help more singaporean
[1:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: ? It is all on different scheme.. and is legal… for business as long as you operate business
[1:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: There are many other options available ... as long as you are willing to explore and find out.
[1:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Tax benefit is not tax evasion
[1:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Just hire a tax accountant to advise
[1:51 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Orh.. my English bad sorry
[1:51 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: π€£
[1:51 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: It alright my english very bad but I know the term
[1:51 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Problem and inconvenience will arise if self employed needs to take loan whether short to especially longer term loan. How about car purchase or easily to circumvent is to hire one?
There is limitation if one chooses to underdeclare his or her actual income?
[1:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: i think just now they trying to summarise the point for us
[1:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Creative accounting
[1:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +Boon: We need a broader view on “affordability” - to stay in affordable housing but if surrounding living costs is high is not affordable eg: https://mothership.sg/2022/06/tampines-coffeeshop-sold-rent/
[1:53 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Jess, valid concern for aging citizens.
Fact, when one's ages so will their income decline or subject to simpler way of daily livings, that is to live within one's mean!
[1:56 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: It is paramount to have earlier habit of forced savings. Putting aside small amount and compound the interest earned so that such days arise, we will not be too short of emergency funds for medical or other emergencies.
Idea is to start savings from younger age and towards 60, perhaps financial better off though not robust but adaptable according to that old age station of life.
[1:56 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Maybe Govt can build a "temporary" food centre next door (or near enough) and invite the previous stallholders back, offering subsidized rental rates, and in exchange the food must be sold at a cheaper price (to reflect the lower input costs) to screw the new owners up, and also to warn future Monopolists from pulling a similar stunt.
[1:56 pm, 06/07/2022] +Boon: So, let’s focus on living practical affordability and asks ourselves thoughtful questions like if an investor plonks 41million just to buy a coffee shop serving consumers’ daily needs, what sort of improvements to improve consumers’ affordability should the public expect? “…For example, by controlling rent, we could end up reducing the incentive for coffee shop owners to invest in improving their coffee shops to provide better services and facilities to customers," Mr Lee said in his written reply.” Link: https://tnp.straitstimes.com/news/singapore/hdb-will-review-policies-cost-coffee-shop-food-if-needed-desmond-lee
[1:57 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: SERS this block :D should be best option too warn all ppl not to speculate coffee shop
[1:58 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: i think gov years ago did warn them
[1:58 pm, 06/07/2022] +Boon: π
[1:58 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: gov earn 40 million
[1:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: What's the psychology of such a Multi millions purchase?
Any carrot or cane?
[1:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: he monoplisint the area
[1:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: He buy 2 out of 3 mean intailly will under cut the eompetiors
[1:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Got it, entrance into exclusive zone!
[1:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: then raise to 10 dollar cai peng
[1:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Passing parcel game
[1:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: of course they say they wont increase price and
[2:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: that is too costly and inconvenient for everyone ... cheaper to build a "temporary" food centre next door, invite old stallholders back, subsidize rental, limit food prices since rent is subsidized. With that in place, no one will patronise the expensive coffeeshop... and future idiots who are thinking of cornering the coffeeshop mkt, will think twice about doing it
[2:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: and they will pass to the person renting
[2:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: too slow
[2:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: my ideas is always one shoot one hit
[2:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Smaller food stalls to increase revenue...extended sitting capacity.
[2:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: 3 - 5 years would recover the cost
[2:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: too late
[2:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: slower than en-bloc? π³ last i checked, the temporary food centre can be built and ready in a matter of months leh .. and the moment word of the new food centre is coming up, no one will rent the stalls in the coffee shop since they know no one will come buy their food the moment its up and running
[2:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: theyw ill move to another area
[2:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: NTUC, our national Grocer
NFC, our national food Centre
[2:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: shoudl take one year
[2:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Temporary and new is differnt like golden shoes
[2:02 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: NEA need to ask who want to bid
[2:03 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: golden shoe took much longer but new one like pasir ris took around 1 -2 years
[2:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: invite the old stallholders ... at subsidized rates ,,, but in exchange, limit the price they can sell .. while building the new premises
[2:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: new one leh
[2:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: the value of the multi-million $ coffeeshop will immediately collapse
[2:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: and no one will dare to do that again
[2:05 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Up til now , I still don't know why ?
Why can't our NTUC UNION or Foodfare can't rent in a cheaper rate to open up so call eating place at our Neighbour Centre to catering affordable meal 24hrs Day to See Hours
Is that too difficult to open it
Perhaps Government dosent want to open up a eating house like this or what???????????
[2:05 pm, 06/07/2022] +Boon: Regardless of the plans, the amount is important. So, we need to be clear - is HDB / 1. A store of value for retirement, 2. Affordable housing for Singaporeans or 3. A social class feature to help welfare planning.
If 1. Value should be high so that folks can resize in older age to release $ as retirement income. But there’s trade off with younger gen not being able to afford and needing parents help/potentially eating up parents pensions. If 2. Then, how should younger gen/retirees/older folks fund their retirement in due course?
It is not just about the availability of financing schemes.
[2:05 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: you do en-bloc, the fellows will just take the $, and go buy another coffeeshop .. the cycle continues
[2:05 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Why they can hire so many foerginer workers as well hahaha
[2:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: So it gov job to check , public servant o check
[2:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: not me
[2:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: I can offer ideas who paid me wor
[2:08 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Price control
[2:10 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: We talk about having basic daily meal in our convenient neighbourhood not about en bloc here or there,
It's was a shame ,a simple & basic meal necessity become a trade off deal
I must ask why we do have so millionaire ,why?
Nobody doing social enterprise F&B
In our neighbourhood centre
Beside profit in their mind
Is that all they millionaire have in their mind
[2:10 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Input price control in exchange for output price control
[2:12 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Waiting for you to open your "free food for all" foodstall, brudder
[2:12 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Breadtalk earning so much money in their bread ,
But never do much in their price control
Like a floss bun can cost$2
That's why he can't open up a stall call themselves social enterprise
[2:13 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Means Government have to be change liao lorππ
[2:14 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: I won't expect a social enterprise Coffeeshop from this Government liao
[2:16 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: i asking you... not asking Govt
Ask Govt is as good as asking everyone .. because the Govt will have to raise our collective taxes to pay for the "social enterprise" .. unless you somehow found a way to pay for everything with nothing
[2:16 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: That's why ,our uncle & auntie at Chinatown starring everyone for having dinner but none of them can afford it
[2:16 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Singapore is a small Country with limited land spaces.
Many lands even at the suburban areas have been slowly used up for BTO flats - such as Sengkang, Punggol, Jurong, etc.
Now Tengah suburban area is another potential site for new BTO flats.
So there is a limit of big swab of lands for HDB BTO flats going forward - as more lands have been developed.
2. Currently, many mature estates lease of 99 years are getting lesser and lesser - and will be approaching 50 years left of lease as the lease decay.
Correspondingly, conditions of the flats will also deteriorate - though improvement programme such as HIP (Home Improvement Programme) - have help to refurbish or replace decaying items such as toilets, rubbish chutes, metal and wooden doors - into new ones at a very little cost ----- very grateful for the Government thoughts and efforts.
3. But it will come a time when the whole flat conditions deteriorates and enbloc will be the way to go - to renew the 99 year lease.
This phenomenon is observe in private housing - such as condominium, walk-up apartment and even landed houses - to renew the lease into a fresh 99 year lease.
But enbloc is a voluntary actions undertaken by estate management or the owners of the private houses.
4. Likewise, not surprising that Government will have to undertake similar measures - that is to "Enbloc" under 2 schemes to renew the lease to 99 years and rejuvenate the housing environment in the mature estates :-
a. SERS (Selective En bloc Redevelopment Scheme)
b. VERS (Voluntary En bloc Redevelopment Scheme) - still not yet come onboard
5. This will ensure Singapore have sufficient lands for housing needs for our population as Singapore land size - has limited finite spaces - and is not able to keep finding big suburban lands to build BTO flats.
6. Thus the solution is to "recycle existing flats" - whereby the lease will be expiring.
It also make sense when population is aging, and younger population need to buy new houses for marriage and bring up kids - and allow younger population to stay in mature estates close to their parents rather than pushing them out into suburban areas in which lands are also drying up.
-----
[2:17 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: When a $40 million coffee shop transacted it means the nearby hawker centre food prices will follow and benchmark the food prices in this coffee shop. Though a lowered increased prices for the hawkers.
[2:18 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Singapore sooner or later wil collapse base on your way of theory
[2:18 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: What's the value added, this coffee shop? New sits, tables and flooring?
[2:19 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Where's the competitive advantage? Given hawker centre and ciffe shop both are open aired eateries!
[2:20 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Quality of food stalls vs the variety of choices in a hawker centre?
[2:22 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Agree
[2:22 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Foodfare should do more having basic & affordable meal in our neighbourhood centre
Unlike Food Republic doing nothing for commoner
Except selling ATAS PRICE
[2:22 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: btw valuation of property should one be private another should be from gov and they should not contact bankers .
[2:23 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Agree
[2:23 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: The idea that Singapore is land scarce is a fallacy, especially when it comes to housing.
Modern construction/building materials, techniques and design has enabled us to build taller and more efficient building with a lot more square footage of liveable space per land area. Much more and faster than the rate of population growth.
The stress is on transportation networks.
This is resolved by de-centralisation and designing "self-contained" towns.
The 50 story Pinnacle @ Duxton is just one example of what we could already achieve in 2009
[2:23 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: this may tempraory stop the issue
[2:24 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Correct, high plot ratio. 40 floors HDB block.
[2:30 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
To bring justice to the government, the HIP programme cost more than $10,000 for a house to replace the many rundown facilities.
Household only got to pay $1,000 to $2,000 plus using CPF whereby the remaining is foot by HDB.
Many households under the HIP feel grateful that the government has such thought and effort to improve the living conditions of the mature houses.
[2:31 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Spending on needs and be prudent on wants?
In an extreme example, a senior couple into (65)70 yrs of age. Two adult children having own flats or 1 remains single.
Couple deceived to downsize exiting flats to a 2 rm or studio to monetise for say $300k?
Assuming this couple having little money saved and the amount is $25k and monthly total CPF withdrawal of only $1600 for both.
This case the monetised amount of $300k will be a minimal buffer for both for next 20 years? Enough support?
[2:33 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: The SERS was launched in 1995. The majority of HDB were built in the late 1960s and into first half of 1970s. That's the starting history of HDB into today's situation.
[2:35 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Then I would like to know, without the 300k buffer, what/how was this couple getting by?
The way I look at it, its BAU ... +300k ..if you say that is not enough, then, most likely, they already did not have enough to begin with.. and the 300k sounds like quite an improvement π€·♂️
[2:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: There is a need to upgrade and update HDB flats, ideally, prior a block reaches 40th year.
Structurally and materials wise, it is good to rebuild new ones.
There is a cost element to newer developments besides materials. The land cost differ over time. That's economics development in play.
One can say, it is a happy problem thar comes with many unintended consequences same time to some it is a good initiative to do so, that's urban renewal!
[2:41 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Based on today's value of 4rm to 5 rm.. After downsize to 2 rm or studio.
Conservatively, this couple will be alright provided not too ill.
That's what Mr Lee Kuan Yew idea of ASSETS ENHANCEMENT.
Be able to monetise at any given point in time, a family, whether during old age or mid life or anytime! Totally driven by markets and free hands to exercise one's investment, these HDB assets.
[2:42 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Singaporeans are never happy ....
If you just allow the flats to age and dwindle down to 0yr lease .. they will say Govt/HDB cheat them... pay and pay, in the end got back nothing
If HDB/Govt decide on SERS, replace old with new, they will say Govt heartless ... make them top-up ... relocate .. kpkb about how great their kampung is... how all their memories are gone ... when actually - at least to me - its mostly saying they expect Govt to pay them for the "pain and suffering"
So I say, just leave it alone.. no need to SERS,,,,when the building start to age and crumble ... they have to foot the bill for repairs .. let the lease run down and the value go to zero. When they see that that can happen, THEN, they will appreciate beg Govt/HDB to do SERS π
[2:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: I think is not nice to say about SERS /HIP if doesn't affect one esp if you live freehold or Private esatate ?
[2:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: or currently dont own any HDB
[2:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: The thing in life is never Predictable.
You start off from birth, into adulthood and progresses to old age. These dozens of years and life stations sometimes brings one surprised fortunes while others faces misfortunes.
One succeed this lifetime with 2 properties or more from humble starts and luck came uplifted this person's life. A change for better today!
While the others are stuck with unhappiness of feeling loose out to many?
One sure thing, this asset enhancement initiative will give you a simple roof with it shine or especially rainy days. That's the award winning team of our HDB.
[2:51 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Simply put it, our HDB is a consolation prize in life. Anything more, it will be great!
[2:55 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: HDB is not free. Folks paid with their hard earned savings . To get back a new flat and some cash is consolation.
[2:56 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: No body owes us our 3 meals, we all work hard for our livelihoods...
[2:57 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: What's the initial government vision and plan for Singaporean to have housing and also a stay to protect
[2:58 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: Feels like a gangster come to my home and tell me I'm taking your home. No money or you pay another money I give you another.
[2:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: Imagine doing that to a 60 to 70 year old
[2:59 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: There is no need downsize to 2 room
I heard government allow them buy back lease Scheme for 4/5 room so unnecessary to move everything.
[3:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Mr Lee Kuan Yew and his team knew exactly what's was POVERTY like in the 1950s.
They knew the depth and difficulties faced by our seniors.
Our seniors are disciplined people whom worked very hard and saved for their life. Today's progress and prosperous Singapore!
Can our young generation feel what's poverty like? Perhaps it is beyond words of comprehension in describing poor!
What was like with empty stomach and empty pockets?
[3:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: A moment of silence, thanks...
[3:01 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
7. SERS as the name suggest - are selected for enbloc by the Government - which I believe should be those housing blocks are quickly decaying lease and the conditions are deteriorating or could be blocks that the Government need to acquire for specific purposes such as the few HDB flats that are needed to expand the Woodland RTS station and checkpoints.
8. VERS which is yet to come on board - is "Voluntary Enbloc" - which the HDB residents got to vote to achieve a certain threshold - in order for HDB to allow enbloc to take place.
This will be similar to private housing - such as condominium, walk-up apartment or landed houses - whereby majority of residents must give the consent - to vote for enbloc.
[3:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: If not for HDB, what options would we have.
I think people need to realise how fortunate we all have been and stop being greedy.
I am not saying there are no genuine cases that require assistance, but most times, my experience has been that our Govt, despite its many deficiencies, is ultimately really concerned and will go out of the way to help resolve most issues even when the demands are sometimes bordering on the unreasonable.
It is when I see and hear how ridiculous some of those complaints and demands are, that really riles me up.
The price of the HDB is such, because it is, and always been, 99yr leasehold. You have 99Yrs to decide what you want to do with it from the moment you own the place! When you buy a HDB flat that has only 60yrs left on the lease, you did it with your eyes open! The Govt/HDB did not entice you with a promise that they will extend your lease or make you whole in case the value collapses. Neither did they ask you for a cut of the profits when you sell for over a million $ to the next sucker.
Just remember that ,,,, Please.
[3:03 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Greed drives, so long do not overly indulged or it will be a very unhappy life thereafter.
[3:04 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: That would be really terrible... but that is not the case here is it?
[3:05 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: In fact, from a recent video clip that had been circulating, the "gangster", in my opinion, is the resident.
[3:07 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: "VERS"... like how its done in the private sector?
Surely you have heard of the fights in that arena π
[3:07 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sh Koh: The resident shld be well compensated. If moving is so painful, the compensation package is not ideal. Do we so much problem last time ? The resident request is not unreasonable.
[3:07 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: What if the price of public housing becomes hotter each year?
Should we half the lease to 50 years to mitigate affordable housing or two tier that is 50 or 99?
[3:08 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: https://www.propertyguru.com.sg/property-management-news/2019/12/185132/observers-say-hdb-lease-top-up-proposal-has-long-term-drawbacks
[3:08 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Can we voice out to government about lease top up
[3:08 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Especially for seniors whom savings are critical for later on medical or emergency needs.
[3:10 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Please.. we are talking about Singapore. Changi to Tuas only take how long? A lot of people make noise hoping that will bring them more compensation ... and when that is still not enough, they hit social media platforms with their sob stories.
How many people actually keep their doors open? Do you even know your neighbours' names? π
[3:10 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Frankie, lease top up will be similar to SERS.
One criteria of qualifying for SERS is that the block and its vicinity are closing to 40th years, like 35th years onwards.
[3:11 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Lease top up is a big issue… cannot easily decide as it affects the whole dynamic of the market. And make it hard for government to take back the land for future usage.
[3:12 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: SERS displaces old folks. Lease top up you stay in your neighborhood
[3:13 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: HDB is ones first pot of gold only if.... If only the occupants paid up faster than deferring the loan into the 20th year.
The next upgrade can be a bigger and better location HDB.
Idea is to start simple and pay up sooner than later.
"Time is money and money happens ti work against time...! "
- - annoymous
[3:14 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: What's your proposed top up fees be? Per household.
Top up for say another 30 years?
[3:14 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Voice out 50% discount old current flat because they stay long team instead of getting new BTO.
[3:16 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: SERS also sometimes use to displace older residence so that the neighbour gets a boost of new life coming into that area.
The school in the area get more younger population to utilise the facilities in the area.
[3:16 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sh Koh: HDB got resources to give a good compensation. For other option... why dun allow private developer to take over the Sers programme. Govt can treat it as part of land sale and private developer handle the moving process. Govt dun have to lose out in certain ways as they set price. Other option for those who think Sers benefitted too much for new flat... as mentioned there always a way to impose levy or claw back on the resale later.
[3:16 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: One way for seniors may be to downsize say from 4rm or 5 rm into 3rm or studio.
Monetise these gains and live their life more stressfree and truly enjoy aging.
Can this work?
Topping up needs money to do so.
Frankie, the example is to avoid any means of touching one's savings.
[3:18 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: In HK, the policymakers let private developers do the housing chores.
Today, many young Hong kongers are displaced by high and impossible to achieve own dwellings. That's exploded into the 2019 riots!
[3:19 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If the house is fully paid they can rent out.. but not many want to…
Cause they have a choice.
Then again, having to think about spending a significant sum at an old age is a topic that we need to tackle
[3:19 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Choice, preference and affordability.
[3:25 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Reading through the post here - something that I don't understand.
2. For example, if the remaining lease is 50 years but government do a SERS to replace it with a new flat and elderly buy the new flat at 50 years lease with no payment required - how is it displacing the elderly?
3. It means the elderly get a new flat with new facilities with the same 50 years remaining lease at the same area.
[3:26 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: SERS they don't have their neighbors that they are with for 50 years.
[3:26 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
4. The only inconvenience is that the elderly need to shift house and probably do some renovations - the cost the elderly need to foot.
[3:27 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Aiyah - children also move out.
Old residents also pass away.
[3:28 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I thought in SERS the whole neighborhood move to the same new flat - isn't it?
[3:29 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Danny idea
One to one exchange
No capital gain because of new flat alloted
Self paid for minor renovation because it can be BTO flat.
Inconvenience of moving, contractor and lost friends
[3:29 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Yes, though will be reassigned here and there but within the cluster of blocks. Its alright.
[3:30 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Example of Tanglin Halt SERS new Neighborhood
[3:33 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: You took one ?
[3:35 pm, 06/07/2022] +Stella Yip: Hope G can offer option of a sweeter deal, and revive the 3 generations living together thingy (LKY time). If Sers offer owners to buy duo key jumbo flats with their kids, then the elderly don't have to fork out $, their kids and grand kids can live in mature estate at good price. Then maybe the fight will not be with G but which child of the owner should be chosen for this lobang???
[3:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: How about loan HDB allow them old age to repay top up lease use their CPF for retire.
[3:39 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Maybe I say RA payout monthly $1,500 and loan HDB $500 repay for another 15 years. So left $1,000 is profit
[3:42 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: you mean the ones they don't see, don't speak to, don't know the names of, don't give a darm about ... most times only know there is such a person when the fire department comes by to break down the door because someone complained of a "foul smell"?
[3:44 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: see... G-R-E-E-D ... π
[3:48 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
9. So if SERS or VERS do take place in a mature estate - it will only make sense to maximise the footfall of the limited land spaces.
For example, older HDB flats are 15 floor - and hence can only accomodate lesser number of household.
As some people suggest, with newer housing technique, it is possible to build 30 floor and even up to 50 floor on the same footfall. This will be able to accomodate more household in a mature estate with limited land spaces.
However, more facilities such as coffeeshops, hawker centres, MRT, shopping mall, retail stores, supermarket, sports facilities, community clubs will need to expand - to accomodate higher population per foot fall.
10. So existing residents displace by SERS and VERS will be given a new flat to stay (with shorter lease for eg. 50 years at no additional cost or longer lease 99 years with top-up if want to use it as legacy to pass down to their descendants).
11. Young population can also take up new houses at this mature estates under SERS and VERS at 99 year lease - and stay close to their parents.
12. However I will like to suggest that - if SERS or VERS demolish one 15 floor 5-room flat, should build back one 30 or 50 floor 5-room flat. Same for 4-room and 3-room flat - so that residents don't feel they need to downsize to get a new flat under SERS or VERS - because they may need the floor area for whatever reasons.
13. But one demerit is the mixed lease within a HDB block - some are 50 years and some are 99 years lease --- which could depress the reselling values of the HDB flats in a mixed lease blocks.
To prevent such problems, can Government consider :-
a. Under SERS or VERs, build one 30-50 floor new flat of 50 years lease - dedicated as replacement flats for existing residents with old flats that have 50 years lease left.
As there will be many available houses (since 30-50 floors to replace the old 15 floor flat will have more vacant houses - then these vacant houses can be offer to others non-existing residents that want to buy a 50 years lease house).
b. Under SERS or VERs, other blocks will be built with 30-50 floor new 99 year lease flat - that will be offered as BTO flats to young population to bid. In this way, young population will have a chance to bid for a 99 year lease flat in a mature estate and live near their parents - so that their parents can look after their young children.
In this way, there won't be a mix lease within a block.
Young population with 99 year lease block - can preserve the values of their flat and can sell at a higher price in the resale markets.
Elderly with 50 year lease block - will have a lower resale values - but is meant for Elderly retirement until the twilight years.
In this way, there are no mix lease within a HDB block - whereby young population will cry foul as a mix lease block will depress their resale values.
[3:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sh Koh: HDB is their only assets. The moving of elderly away to a new place doesn't always appeal to everyone. If there is a good package, it is not just a hassle but painful experience. The 50 lease proposal is maybe financially equal but not quite the same.
[3:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: Good idea...
How about a trust funds or sinking funds ti facilitate such seniors financial needs. Taxpayers?
Though these days all housing loans have been privatised to banks, risks on shareholders.
[3:49 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
If the old flat remaining lease is 50 years - how is this asset value appealing?
I don't understand?
[3:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Should be separate from bank and HDB loan. Safe risk than pay heavy loan.
I would assign that elderly will have met enough mins CPF RA $150k approval buy new SERS (new BTO)
Regardless their age limit those 75,95 or 100
[3:52 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
The only way to increase the asset value of a decaying lease example 50 years is to enbloc to renew the lease to 99 years - and then sell.
Then stay where?
[3:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sh Koh: To the resident... if the exchange is not better. Why even do it. Especially if it is smaller unit.
[3:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: 1 foul smell dead body versus the number of residents who do morning walks together, exercise together gardening together, meet with grandchildren at playground, saying hello and block gathering.
[3:53 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So that means let the flat lease reset to zero and the flat deteriorate then government reacquire after the lease end?
[3:54 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: I think the government is aware of displacement and I understand they have SERS where you can be with your neighbors
[3:55 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: It's not easy for elderlies to make friends. There is a sense of lost and familiarity leading to depression and isolation and ill health
[3:56 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I thought the whole friends move to the same SERS flat?
[4:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sh Koh: No need to. I dun think govt intend to. I am not keen as well. give some sweetener to the displaced resident. The redevelopment of the site will cover more adequately for their compensation and HDB. It maybe a lottery for some (maybe not applicable on the new scheme) but let it be anyway.
[4:05 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Because a 99 years flat will be a very rundown flat if don't tear down and rebuild.
Water pipes rusty, here leak there leak - very rundown places to stay.
Enblocs to rebuild is the only way to go.
[4:06 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sh Koh: Yes agreed. I pro rejuvenation
[4:11 pm, 06/07/2022] +Stella Yip: That's why this will work. And the benefits will not just for these AMK SG citizens but other SG citizens with flats of potential π€. Perhaps old age loneliness issues can be reduced since the children needs to be the chosen one to benefit from this lobang.
[4:11 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: That you do not have to worry ... because our Govt is obviously more worried than us, that our lease may run out before we finally expire π
[4:13 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: It is in the bylaws that HDB can repossess the flat by offering the resident reasonable compensation. Even FH private land can be repossessed by URA/SLA
[4:25 pm, 06/07/2022] +Sh Koh: Yes.... govt can do that. Or they can be kinder and more generous.
[4:27 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: Or people can be less greedy π
[4:29 pm, 06/07/2022] +Joseph: the fact that HDB/Govt didn't just throw the book at you, although they can, is already a show of kindness no?
Comparing that against how some of these "sentimental" residents are reacting ....
[4:34 pm, 06/07/2022] +Smiley face: How about compensation as follows :
3rm $50k
4rm $70k
5rm $90k
Inclusive of moving cost and needed renovations.
If existing 3rm upgrade to 4rm or 5rm, there will be no compensation and prevailing price and top ups applies for bigger flats.
[4:34 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Why show this article ? you mean they using SERS housing as a tools to avert recession ?
[4:35 pm, 06/07/2022] +KL: Or using housing price to avert recession ?
[4:38 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Whether recession or no recession - SERS or Vers will still go ahead.
[4:44 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://news.google.com/articles/CBMidmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnNjbXAuY29tL2xpZmVzdHlsZS9hcnRpY2xlLzMxODM3NzQvd2V2ZS1hbGwtaGFkLWVub3VnaC1ob25nLWtvbmdzLWhvdXNpbmctY3Jpc2lzLWJyZWFrLWNpdHlzLXNob2Vib3gtY3Vyc2XSAXZodHRwczovL2FtcC5zY21wLmNvbS9saWZlc3R5bGUvYXJ0aWNsZS8zMTgzNzc0L3dldmUtYWxsLWhhZC1lbm91Z2gtaG9uZy1rb25ncy1ob3VzaW5nLWNyaXNpcy1icmVhay1jaXR5cy1zaG9lYm94LWN1cnNl?hl=en-SG&gl=SG&ceid=SG%3Aen
Hong Kong’s housing crisis – break the city’s ‘shoebox curse’ or people will leave and never return.
To buy an extremely modest flat in Hong Kong you’d need to save every cent you earn for 9 years; renting a subdivided flat costs a third of median income.
It is untenable that so many Hong Kong people pay so much for a place to call home. Something has to be done about the housing crisis before they leave forever.
[4:45 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Become ghost town since unsold unit.
[4:46 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
2 housing problems that other country face.
Mainland overbuilt - ghost cities, vacant blocks and blocks of vacant houses - left to decay.
Bankrupt developers, impair banks from housing loan.
HK underbuilt - mainly shoebox unit. Many in rental flats
[5:30 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: The old guards laid a good foundation because they care for the people. Hopefully the new guard will do the same
[5:31 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Likewise
[5:33 pm, 06/07/2022] +jimmy chew: Yeah the issues are complex and our ministers and civil servants are unique so there will be unique opportunity to sustainable and meaningful solitons
[5:37 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Forward Singapore conversation!?
[6:17 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: To those who choose to HIP by using CPF Ordinary account unable to deduct from CPF is a trick to our Singaporean
Hopefully ,nobody being trick by CPF or HDB so far
I won't grateful for that εεΏδΈθ―
[6:19 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: I am not so sure about not being tricked!
[6:20 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
????
Wonder why you full of anger and dissatisfaction???
[6:22 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB can always ask everyone to Deduct from Ordinary Account
To those older senior realize they signed something which couldn't pay by CPF
Suddenly found themselves into the debt
Situation
This HIP only for healthy CPF Ordinary Account means have money
To those poor fellow ,Do not sign up otherwise you will found yourself into deep trouble
[6:24 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Yup, Dissatisfaction truth
[6:25 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Nothing to be please me so far
[6:27 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Perhaps ,I looking for Mother Theresa Attitude to form Government & Agencies
In order to please me even more✌️✌️
[6:28 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: There's a limit in everything the government can do for the people.
[6:30 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: I agree,
But not adding troublesome policy
Like can this or that
Suddenly cannot liao
That's the worst part from HDB policy over the years
[6:30 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: I rather say it was not properly put across to the people for better understanding.
[6:32 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: I believed what I mention earlier ,
it was happens everywhere
If someone ,like older generation being tricked for various of cases
I did heard many of it
[6:32 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Then, grassroots outreach has failed!
[6:36 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB will only ask everyone to said ( Yes ) to the idea for HIP
However ,until everyone realize not enough of cash have to deferment HDB ask for interest annually
If HDB tell this right from the begun ,
Nobody dare to sign up for sure
Unless wealthy in their Ordinary Account
This needs to get rid of it
HDB or CPF do things in other frame
[6:38 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB ,needs to relook themselves before starts to tell everyone to follow their decision
It's was awful ,everytime I heard from it
[6:46 pm, 06/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
[6:47 pm, 06/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
When you say everyone, you probably refer to yourself only.
My estate about 10 blocks got HIP.
All households pay about $1,000 plus or $2,000 plus for the HIP depending on how extensive the facilities need to replace.
We have just completed the HIP for the whole estate.
No one complaining the high cost or government cheating us to do the HIP - many express satisfaction and happy about the improvement programme.
The whole cost per household is more than $10,000 where the bulk is paid for by HDB.
You are probably one person that I have come across spewing toxicity on the government about the HIP.
[6:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: That’s right government subsidy 90% and residents pay 10%
[6:48 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Amount is very low
[6:49 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: So, I don't see what still is the issue for just 10%!?
[6:50 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/living-in-an-hdb-flat/sers-and-upgrading-programmes/upgrading-programmes/types/home-improvement-programme-hip
[6:52 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: U can say anyone U like it
I'm not surprised at all
I'm Okay on that
Gratefully ,means HDB can do utmost to be please everyone enjoy the offer for HIP
However, if they ask for interest just because for this project it was a shame by adding burden to resident to those financially difficulty to paid for it
How dare HDB
[6:53 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: HDB remain low point in my remark as usual
[6:53 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: So many people complaint never safe guard was cause people say government never control let the people money get cheated…
Now control say government don’t give them control π
[6:54 pm, 06/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Why don’t u walk in MP seek help
[6:54 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Someone with full knowledge of your issue has to sit down and get to the bottom of your grievances
[6:55 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: All MP sending letter back to their useless Agencies again & again
[6:56 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: If so, they will be taken to task!
[6:56 pm, 06/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Depends on what you asking for… I do see many get back and successful
[6:57 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: Not knowledge,
but the HIP programme shouldn't give additional burden to those who refuse to upgrade ,
Because they never tell the hidden side of amount
It's evil
[6:58 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Then, his issues is nothing to ponder about
[7:00 pm, 06/07/2022] +Anthony: My advice to all look & heard & ask every single detail before sign up all this document
Especially, to those Act Rich want this & want that
Later, find themselves into financially trouble
[7:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +Rama: Really!?
[7:01 pm, 06/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
====
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