REACH 368 - Do you think the current BTO system is sufficient to ensure home ownership is attainable for all Singaporeans? What more can be done to ensure everyone has a home that supports their needs and aspirations?
(SK)
01 Jul 2022 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:46 am, 01/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
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[10:00 am, 01/07/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
The Housing Development Board (HDB), in a statement on Sunday (June 26), said applicants who are invited to book a flat should take up the offer, amid buoyant demand for housing in the last two years. HDB also said that “virtually all first-timer applicants of BTO flats in non-mature estates had a chance to book a flat within their first three tries”.
π¬ Do you think the current BTO system is sufficient to ensure home ownership is attainable for all Singaporeans? What more can be done to ensure everyone has a home that supports their needs and aspirations?
Additionally, the BTO system includes schemes that cater to the needs and aspirations of specific segments of the population. Community Care Apartments feature senior-friendly design features and subscriptions to care services, and are targeted at home buyers aged 65 and above who want to live on their own but receive care if needed. Houses under the Prime Location Public Housing (PLH) model tend to be popular among applicants, which analysts attribute to their prime location, good price appreciation and design features.
ππΌ First-timers have good chance to book BTO flat as 40% of applicants invited to do so decline: HDB
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/40-per-cent-of-applicants-invited-to-book-bto-flat-do-not-do-so-hdb
ππΌ About 200 assisted living HDB flats for elderly to be launched in Queenstown this year
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/queenstown-elderly-hdb-flats-community-care-apartments-2547716
ππΌ HDB to launch about 4,500 BTO flats, new projects under prime area model in May exercise
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/hdb-may-bto-2022-exercise-new-prime-location-public-housing-model-2700871
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[10:06 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Hi,
I am curious to know about 99 years lease or flexible lease. When land expire date and value is zero.
Do they need fold out pay new lease with SARS? Would cost each 2 room $100k above?
[10:17 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Err so far the ones in Geylang is going to end lease… so government taking back
[10:18 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: https://mothership.sg/2020/11/hdb-lease-or-own/
[10:18 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Then they no saving where they should stay?
[10:18 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: 99 years you buy should last a lifetime.. you buy old one knowing the risk
[10:18 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Don’t assume government will buy back
[10:19 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: People gamble on the fact government will buy back.. when they don’t then realise…
[10:20 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: I though the government should help them get a new home. Don’t expect that ask them residents to move and buy new lease
[10:21 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: For the start maybe.. but as the older HDB lease up more.. there is a limit to how much government can support.
Story is please don’t buy old house to assume SERS
[10:26 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/dont-assume-all-old-hdb-flats-will-become-eligible-for-sers-cautions-lawrence-wong
[10:28 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If the future PM also say Liao…
So be cautions… specially when agent say might SERS in strong area like example Queen street… think again… if it doesn’t…
[10:29 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Notice some senior elderly with no saving how they manage to live home?
They will sent to elderly care centre?
[10:30 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Sell back to government the remaining lease… if yours is still young.
Most would have 20 to 30 years left when they buy. (Assume they live till 90)
[10:32 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: 20 buy HDB
99-20 = 79
So most would have about 20 years left.. if they live till 90
[10:32 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Why there is a limit to buy older HDB… think about it
[10:32 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: I hope Singapore government revise new policy with age.
In future they are well live healthy. They maybe can live 100 year old.
[10:32 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: More than 40 years… they would cap the loan amount
[10:34 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: In a way.. it limits the growth of the price as well. It will roof at certain point.. not expert so can’t really know what’s their target price is
[10:34 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Do your planning when you buy old house… assume as renting π₯² it is just cheaper to buy then rent rent
[10:35 am, 01/07/2022] +Sam: There is restricted usage of CPF and loan to make sure the remaining lease sufficient to last youngest owner till 95
[10:36 am, 01/07/2022] +Sam: Do you think that it is suitable for a 95 year old person to live in HDB alone or with equally old spouse?
[10:37 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: I don’t know about the future how much I can life. I am still healthy
none smoke
none ill
[10:40 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Have more kids.. lol
Current ratio if 1 kid to 2 adult is really tough
[10:41 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: For me I aim minimum 2. And saved up as much as possible so that my kids don’t need to worry as much… if not sick
[10:41 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: So good u have kid to support u in future
[10:41 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Haha I don’t really depend on that
[10:42 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: But if they can support a bit better than nothing
[10:42 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: I want to get marriage π
[10:42 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Fast fast! Lol still so many single out there
[10:44 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Start investing.. for passive income.
Start small like aim at $100 per month passive.
Then $200. And so on if possible
[10:45 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Aim to hit passive $500 at least when I reach 50 hopefully π
[10:45 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Great π
[10:45 am, 01/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Which platform is reliable?
[10:46 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: There are many risk… start investing early… if not just CPF… lol.. 2.6 percent no risk
[10:46 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Units trust is low risk but slow growth saving
[10:46 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: I divest in stock, unit trust.
Unit trust do pay monthly… but up down you need to understand lor..
[10:47 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Yah.. eat in to your profit. But very divested. So give and take lor
[11:00 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: If people stop buying resale then the market will crash and everyone will be at the mercy of unscrupulous wealthy landlords.
[11:01 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Not really.. if your house is cheap then rent… of course people will still buy…
[11:01 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: HDB is the landlord… so no such issue… they adjust accordingly to supply and demand
[11:01 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: If your house is cheap then rent - what does that mean?
[11:02 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Assume you buy a house 640k for 80 years lease
[11:02 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Private residents with enbloc can sold more than hundreds million dollars
[11:02 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: I mean if mo one wants to buy with less than 50 years
[11:02 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: I'm talking less than 50
[11:02 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It works out to be around 8k a year.. not including interest
[11:02 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: Sure 80 years is ok, but less than 50 is not
[11:02 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: You have to calculate if it is worth it lor..
[11:03 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: Is gov really going to make thousands of families homeless?
[11:03 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Location also factor mah
[11:03 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: Or reduce their investment to nothing?
[11:03 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: And have nothing to leave thier kids?
[11:04 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Err we buy HDB ourselves also.. our parent all leave something for us?
[11:04 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: Not if you buy with less than 50 years remaining
[11:04 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: That’s the person choice…
[11:04 am, 01/07/2022] +Sam: If you are homeless with low or no income, you can apply for rental flat
[11:04 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Knowing the risk
[11:05 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: People always thought SERS… never think what if don’t have?
[11:05 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: Choice only comes with sufficient income
[11:06 am, 01/07/2022] +BL: Correct, which means nothing is being done to help those get their own property, which is today's topic.
[11:07 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: For old house seems to work out about 8k a year
[11:08 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: 51 years remaining those couple age 35+ mean that 51+35 is 86 years old reach
[11:08 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If you choose to buy there… knowing the risk? No?
[11:08 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Not including government subsidies
[11:09 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: I am aware of it really risk
[11:09 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: My parents stay that area… I didn’t buy cause of that also
[11:10 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: When buy target at less than 20 years.. for me when I buy resale. Don’t need to worry about HDB even if I don’t move I stay till I die
[11:11 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: In case CPF OA remind to return amount from housing withdraw. If lease run and value zero.
Would CPF ask us to return the amount OA?
[11:11 am, 01/07/2022] +Uncle Law: *than
[11:11 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Nothing to return lol.. anyway you haven’t cout interest hor.. buy HDB with interest one lol
[11:12 am, 01/07/2022] +REACH: About 950,000 households to get second tranche of GST vouchers in July
More: https://str.sg/wLuc
[11:12 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Check your CPF app
[11:13 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Then CPF housing show state of account will ease zero or remain return OA le I not sure how they run out of lease.
[11:13 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: How it works I really have no idea any expert here can share? Never sell house before so don’t know
[11:14 am, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: This one I also want to know don’t know how it works if in that case..
[11:26 am, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Total Accrued Interest is the accumulated Interest charged on the CPF you used to service your loan.
This $ has to be paid back into your own CPF.
This is the interest you would have earned (CPF pay you) if you had not used it to service your housing loans
[11:34 am, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: https://www.cpf.gov.sg/member/faq/home-ownership/housing-scheme/i-am-aged-55-and-above--i-have-set-aside-my-retirement-sum--do-i
"....You will still need to refund the CPF principal amount withdrawn and the accrued interest even though you are aged 55 and above and have set aside your Retirement Sum. If the selling price (including the option monies) after paying the outstanding housing loan is not enough to fully refund the CPF principal amount withdrawn together with the accrued interest, you do not need to top up the shortfall in cash, provided the property is sold at market value. ..... "
[11:35 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: I am talking about HDB lease run out expire and in case CPF OA need to remind us return amount or just zero in your statement of account?
[11:37 am, 01/07/2022] +Vivian: So it's better to pay most of it and not loan?
[11:38 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Loan HDB with lease at least 50+ years
[11:41 am, 01/07/2022] +Vivian: If BTO?
[11:45 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: All of us working so hard to serving CPF saving OA and bough HDB when land lease run out expire and surrender HDB return to government.
Our housing value is zero. Can you tell about the OA already transfer to housing with accrued interest. Then it’s mean zero or return the amount OA?
[11:48 am, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: My understanding is that the Value of the HDB becomes ZERO .... but you still owe your own CPF the amount of $ used
[11:48 am, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: That’s correct what I mean
[0:21 pm, 01/07/2022] +Vivian: Sad life
[0:26 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/indonesia-chicken-new-import-source-malaysia-ban-shortage-sfa-2782901
Singapore approves Indonesia as new source for chicken imports.
Ye! Ye! --- We got chicken rice to eat liao!
Yummy Yummy..
[0:27 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ: https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/singapore-adds-indonesia-source-chickens-not-live-1934471
Singapore to import chilled, frozen, processed chickens from Indonesia; live chickens not part of arrangement.
[0:27 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: tell that to the Bangla worker ... or your FDW π
[0:30 pm, 01/07/2022] +Boon: A bit out of context for todays topic but related to previous ones - is this price increase by SP Group (a govt related entity) really necessary at this time of high price inflation and govt hand outs to help buffer costs?
[0:30 pm, 01/07/2022] +Boon: https://sg.yahoo.com/finance/news/singapore-electricity-gas-tariffs-rise-global-energy-crunch-084915346.html
[0:32 pm, 01/07/2022] +Boon: RE: assisted living HDB flats - this sounds great and it’s be great to know the criteria/means test for elderly to qualify.
[0:32 pm, 01/07/2022] +Rama: No live chicken yet
[0:33 pm, 01/07/2022] +Rama: My point exactly
[0:33 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Yes. But at least we got more choices.
[0:34 pm, 01/07/2022] +Rama: Correct
[0:38 pm, 01/07/2022] +Rama: LKY words becomes dust after he is gone
[0:39 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: SG does not produce Natgas,so Govt can do little to influence on the prices/charges without forcing electricity providers to swallow losses just so you and I can continue to use as much Gas/Electricity as we please.
Where I think the Govt can do more, is in areas where the input costs are domestically driven ... like rising retail/commercial rent which have been driven up by REITs and F&B oligopolies ... and which disproportionately enrich the "rich" while causing unneceesary hardship for the masses.
[1:00 pm, 01/07/2022] +KL: Actually pardon for my ignorance today topic is HDB
HDB - why single NS males can’t get 3 room bto in mature estate ? regardless of room ? HDB is too expensive as well . All problem is linked in to each other .
I think ppl should not add unnecessary topic when it not concern as Singaporean 80-90 % need HDB
Out of point a bit
As for The open electricity concept is good mean we lock electricity price with the unitily firm the firm lock the price of fuel with the relevant party . But of course it good for country as it pass on the fuel hedging to consumer yet able to kept a reserve of fuel . Of course ppl not sure will keep having expensive electricity. This concept will erode when Firm the are greedy will gamble the hedge causing the firm to collaspe and consumer suffer as the have to goes back to SP.
[1:13 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Very wrong perception.
It should be
. don't buy paying ridiculous prices Either old or new (NOT BTO.. Talking abt so called less than 10yrs old property).
The diff in prices of Old and new in particular estates is More.. its infact dangerous that way
.becz of limited new ones The prices going sky rocket.. where as old ones unable to sell even low prices..as Every one saying don't buy old ones!(let's not compare EMs Landed Hdbs in this as thise are very few).. CPF Restrictions about Less than 60 yrs lease caused more damage than good
[1:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: But that’s the case now no?
Even old ones are bigger in size but still cheaper π
[1:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: CPF should not put restrictions based on lease of Property.... It's totally unfair... As fundamental thing of Cpf is to provide affordable housing!
Let the People make choice Old or new..
As anyway at one time only one hdb they can hold
[1:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: unable to sell
Many old flats
[1:15 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Especially those with Quota even worse
[1:15 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Eventually it will be.. what can be done? Any ideas?
[1:17 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: The current new BTO I feel it is just too small..
unless I fork up enough for new 5 RM BTO which is also becoming more rare π
[1:23 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: 1. Quota should be corrected
2. Remove the Cpf ruling of old flats
This is the major cause of just MOP ridiculous prices ...
3. Do not need to focus on Lease.
4. It's common sense when we buy 99 yrs..so Only Till 99yrs its us.. there after its govt and we should be ready to accept zero return.
It's still better than Renting..
Need to empower people about Hdb
And Those buying should understand the consequences of Paying higher than value..
Prices to be controlled..(if any one obseve..the current ridiculous prices are becz of Just Mop/less than 10yrs val flats...
Cause for that is there has been unnecessary emphasis on Lease decay..
Buying is still the best
(See the current rental market .. it's scary..)
[1:27 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Honestly when I raise housing as the first issue for discussion, 2 things come to my mind :
a. My kid, my sibling kids and my close friend kids - are grown up having graduated, some will soon graduate and some have girlfriends and boyfriends intending to married.
All are looking for affordable HDB flats for marriage.
b. Frankly, none of myself and my siblings nor our kids got clues how the BTO works - as we have completely lost touch.
But now since the needs arise, will have quite a number of questions in mind.
2. Notice that most mature estates have already been taken up, even new estates like Punggol, Sengkang, Bendemeer according to our kids - BTO flats have already dry up.
Need to look even further like Tengah ..... not sure true or not.
3. This will mean our kids will be living very far away from their parents like us. Our kids say that both adults want to work while raising kids. But will want to put their children with their grandparents.
But if they stay so far away eg. Tengah, how to bring their children to the grandparents - before going to work and then pick the children back after work - if they don't live near their grandparents.
4. Next is BTO flat prices. According to our kids, they will want to buy a 5 room flat - to raise 2 or more children (4 room flat will be too small).
But the BTO flat now cost at least $400k or more if not $500k for a 5 room flat.
Our kids worry that will both young couples be able to make down payment, pay monthly loan to finance the BTO flat and finance them for about 20 years to pay off the loan.
(Bearing in mind, job security and stability - due to disruptive tech or industry displacement - have always been an issue - due to a fast changing world).
5. Our kids hope that there is a simple infographic provided by HDB to have a bird eyes view for easy understanding how the BTO flats work and help the young marrying adults to have the relevant information to make informed decision.
Parents like us - are equally blur when our kids ask us about BTO flats.
[1:28 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: The Nbr 1 cause of Price increase is "AFFORDABILITY".
When "Affordability" is supplemented by Lonas (and usage of CPF), the price will increase.
As you have rightly pointed out, it is difficult to SELL flats with less than 60yr lease left ... which also means, it is easier for someone to BUY flats that has less than 60yr leases .. when comparing the Selling price alone.
However, to prevent speculators or imprudent buyers from jumping in, the Govt sets an additional age/coverage requirement...so that the young, don't end up making a purchase only to regret in their latter years - lease run out to ZERO, but still saddled with requirement to repay CPF $ (as someone mentioned earlier).
[1:31 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Affordability also means… if the price don’t go up… if you sell, you might make a lost. Due to inflation and interest.
It is much more complex then just price
[1:32 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If everyone is ok with that. Yes we can put price restriction.. 10 years after still same price. If can’t sell cause no longer have value. We know why
[1:34 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Normal inflation is about 2%
10 years 100k becomes 121k.
Not accounting for the interest
[1:34 pm, 01/07/2022] +KL: How about lease decay ?
[1:35 pm, 01/07/2022] +KL: 99 years lease is a deprecating asset
[1:35 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Yup… so why need to buy younger house?
[1:35 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: You see the post right?
[1:35 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Point”
[1:35 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: It will rise and peak at a certain age.. then decline from there
[1:37 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Anyone have a choice to buy older.. and my choice to buy as young if I can afford. To prevent depreciation lor
[1:38 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: That what I feel.. I don’t do estate… π only buy as a place to stay and that’s it. Up down don’t really care
[1:39 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Its your choice
Same way There should be choice for old ones
[1:40 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: The Cpf can not restrict based on lease, and end up some one forced to buy new ones!
[1:45 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Ofcourse prices should go higher as par with inflation....
But the thing is It should be Equal in all Types and segments..
What's happening now is people Thinking can sell Higher than their Purchase price as its still newer (exmp Some one buying 5 yrs old Hdb just MOP flat..) most of them
Assuming they can pay higher and still can sell Higher after 5 to 10 yrs down the road..
So many people Going for those type of flats, and increasing demand (which in reality if we compare, all flats not much demend should be there for those flats)
Old flats being left out...
This will eventually cause more uneven prices across Estates old vs new..
I don't know when the first 99 yrs completed hdb flat will come out in the market, before that itself many people in old flats will cry for not able to sell, or selling at loss thn their purchse prices..
This is the nearest future than the Lease end
[1:45 pm, 01/07/2022] +KL: I have question why ppl that do valuator can communicate with bankers ? Aren’t that a red flag ? Is that one of the cos of inflated price ?
[1:46 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Not sure, i didn't do that, and infact i never Encouraged my buyer to go higher price/COV Either its hdb or Condo .
[1:48 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: I may not be 100% right, but what i observed is
The Current Hdb prices are totally in Bubble
(As i said Only the less than 10yrs especially JUST MOP flats (or Very unique like jumbos EMS) are going For COV..
And seeing this Resale affordability valuations going up, and eventually HDB selling BTOs at higher prices..
[1:48 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Most of the time will be the value of past sales.. nothing much can be done about it π …
10% different up down. Based on my last experience buying house
[1:49 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: there is a choice.. and then, there are rules ... we may not understand fully or agree with it .. but, the rules are there to safeguard against other worse outcomes
[1:49 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: If we have clear data Based on age vs flat type vs Price increments we will know the Actual REALITY..
What we see now is Just the bubble
[1:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Rules should be there ofcourse, but Not based on age laπ
[1:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Bubble is controlled by government… supply and demand… so I won’t say it would be a bubble
[1:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: "Ofcourse prices should go higher as par with inflation....
But the thing is It should be Equal in all Types and segments.." ...
What??? π
[1:51 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: My point is If 5Rm gping higher
4rm should go .same way
If One Estate going higher
The other always same way
Not the other way round
May be my eng not so good
[1:51 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: you pay more for old car compared to new one?
[1:51 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: I don't buy car at all
It's not a necessity
Housing is necessary
Can nt compare both
[1:53 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: No one said pay same price
But the diff should not be Too much differential
[1:54 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: there is little problem with your english .. can still understand what you are trying to say ... but I think you need to re-think your understanding of demand and supply ... even within the same block of flats, there is a different value depending on which floor it is on .. which direction it is facing etc ...
[1:56 pm, 01/07/2022] +KSFoong: Make sure SFA do routine check on the chicken to ensure the chicken does not hv too much hormone and vacacines injected to prevent chicken disease and encourage growth
[2:05 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: The HDB valuations don't differ much esp. within the same block/cluster. In fact, if you had tried to buy/sell your HDB recently, you will probably hear that there is pressure for the appointed valuers to be more conservative with the valuations.
As for the transacted price, that is beyond the control of the Govt/HDB if the buyer is willing and ABLE to pay the higher prices (which ALL Sellers will demand) despite the many cooling measures in place.
[2:17 pm, 01/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Need some control on the numbers of BTO flats projects in the market.
Some resale flats are able to sold for almost a million but not all. Why? Any catch behind this? Depending on the facilities/ mature state?
Salary range to determine if a couple can buy HDB / Condo / private apartment is necessary.
[2:18 pm, 01/07/2022] +RH: Keep a diversified portfolio, if u can do it.
If not, then build it up over time.
Portfilio can include:
Fixed Deposit - renew when time's up, if needed. Roll over the interest.
Unit Trusts - need to study the sectors tt you r buying into.
May be slow ... Rewards seen from 2 years or so ... And if good, hold on to them or re-invest into same trust.
If no good, switch funds.
Ther r those tt start w $1k , others fr $10k.
Depends on yr risk appetite.
Bonds - guaranteed by gov. But interest low, rewards slow.
Stocks & shares -
Needs study, time and appetite for high risk! If u dun hv time, or value yr sleep, dun do this ! Lol. π
Properties - over time, u may consider this.
[2:20 pm, 01/07/2022] +Andrew Ang: Thank you bro for sharing
[2:20 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I guess this is part of the audit process undertaken by SFA.
[2:23 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Yes as i said Little difference always will be there...
Higher floor sells higher lower a bit lower.. this is understandable...
Yes you are right demand and supply is the key thing..
But what's happening now is supply of Just MOP flats how many will be there in an estate vs Old flats above 10yrs old..
If in 10 buyers, 8 of them goung for newer resale flats, isn't it the price increase only for those flats?
(And why it's now everyone cares about lease, because of Restrictions by CPF)
That's why it needs to be changed..
[2:41 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: You will care if you need to sell and the price has dropped significantly that you can't buy somewhere else
[2:41 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: We really need not to look at property as investments but as homes.
[2:42 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Price stability comes from reducing the need to sell and move. If the new BTO are built bug enough then people won't need to move so much and we get more stable communities.
[2:42 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: *big enough
[2:45 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: "(And why it's now everyone cares about lease, because of Restrictions by CPF)
That's why it needs to be changed.. "
Or maybe .. its because the Govt has identified an area that needs to the changed/updated and decided that the solution is to update CPF restrictions with respect to usage for housing?
It sounds like what you are asking for, is to nullify the changes .. with another change π
[2:46 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: if prices keep going up, eventually someone .. and then everyone .. will not be able to BUY
[2:47 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: The move by the Govt to implement New rules for BTO flats in prime areas is a move in the right direction, but more needs to be done, quickly.
[2:48 pm, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Government additional grant housing more
[2:48 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Sorry i didn't get your point..
[2:49 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: We can no longer sustain the model of using Property price inflation to offset the inflation brought about by the growth from Underdeveloped-to-developed Nation/Economy within 1 generation.
[2:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: We are already a developed Nation/Economy
[2:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Partially disagree .
Many young people selling BTOs After MOP now is to Upgrade to Condo (New condos also smaller in size)
If Buy and sell not happening in market, i guess govt not happy LOL, as Stampfee is the one of the major contributor of Income for govt
[2:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Growth rates are no longer in double-digits or high-single-digits
[2:51 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Upgrage to condo requires $1m. Are they the people the gov is trying to support in the housing market?
[2:52 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: The Govt will just shift the tax collection to other areas... when you spend less on property, you have more to spend elsewhere ,,, thats where Govt can raise taxes and make up for the "lost revenues" from property related taxes
[2:53 pm, 01/07/2022] +RH: U're welcome. π
[2:54 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: And where is the Govt going to get the $ to hand out the Grants?
It is going to come from taxpayers.
So you end up in the vicious cycle of paying more for HDB >> because you can afford to pay more with the Govt Grants >> which come from you having to pay higher taxes >> which leads you to ask for higher salary/wages >> which then requires businesses to charge more ...
And then you will complain why everything in SG so expensive when our neighbours can charge so much less π€¦♂️
[2:57 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Do you believe me if I tell you that if the average re-sale HDB price can only fetch 500k...that mass market (HDB upgraders type condo) can only sell for maybe 700k?
[2:58 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Yes, which is why a couple needs $1m mortgage to upgrade to a condo.
[2:59 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: How much would they have made on that BTO? Not enough to enable the purchase of a condo.
[2:59 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: how is it that building materials and construction technology/machinery has improved so much in the last 50 years and yet we have to pay more for an apartment?
Land cost is one.. but then again... aren't developers bidding up land prices based on how much they think they can sell to YOU?
[3:00 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Therefore they keep the BTO and rent out as income supplement, but they probably didn't need to buy it in the first place.
[3:00 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: And the higher you SELL your BTO, the higher you are willing and able to pay for that "upgraded" condo
[3:01 pm, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Come from investment
[3:01 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Yes and if the max is around 500k, and likely a mortgage still to pay, the profit would only be 50-10]k maybe. Hardly much of a help when buying a condo, so likely they are just taking advantage of subsidied housing.
[3:03 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Buying property to collect rent is one of the silliest things anyone can do nowadays
Net Rental yields is lower than your mortgage interest and the loan-ratio is 50% only. Which means (1) As a landlord, you are subsidising your tenant to stay at your "investment property" and (2) the only upside would be to hope that someone one else comes along and pays you more to take the property off your hands
[3:05 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Actually with mortgage rates at 2%, a $400k mortgage is only cost $8k per year. That's $670 per month. The rest of the mortgage is paying off capital.
[3:06 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Also over 20 years rent will go up, but the mortgage will stay the same.
[3:06 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
"Prices of HDB resale flats, private homes accelerate faster in second quarter: Flash estimates"
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/prices-hdb-resale-flats-private-homes-accelerate-faster-second-quarter-flash-estimates-2784616#:~:text=Prices%20of%20HDB%20resale%20flats%2C%20private%20homes%20accelerate%20faster%20in%20second%20quarter%3A%20Flash%20estimates
[3:06 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: i think you need to update your home mortgage rate info π
[3:06 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: I just took out a new mortgage.
[3:06 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: before the most recent updates
[3:07 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: My new mortgage was signed 2 weeks ago and starts in September, can't get much more current than that.
[3:08 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: What rates are you looking at, that would be materially different that the example I gave?
[3:08 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Even 2.2% would still only be $730 per month of interest, way below monthly rent.
[3:13 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Long term average mortgage rates in SG is 3.5-4% the highest it had been, was above 10%
A lot of people don't understand the impact of interest rates on their mortgages.. they think that its only 1-2% ... no problem
What they do not realise is:
1. For every 30yr mortgage, a 1% rise in interest rate is approx. 20% more in monthly repayment (and also principle repayment)
2. When Mortgage interest hits 3%, about 2/3 of your monthly repayment goes towards interest payments whiile only 1/3 of it goes towards principal reduction
3. At 5%, every $1 repayment, only 25cts goes towards principal reduction
[3:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Very high because of Feb hike interest rates
[3:15 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: I hope you are not talking about 2yr floating, SORA + 1% for year 1 kind of loans
[3:16 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: That is the kind of thinking/belief that gets a lot of "propertygurus" into trouble π
[3:17 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Depends on the starting amount π
[3:18 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Lazy to swap… lol just HDB loan. No need worry.
But of course if change can save a lot I agree
[3:18 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Rent to go up… since most condo are private loans… to service it they have to push it up.
[3:19 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Then spillover to rent HDB. HDB rent go up π
[3:19 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: You are assuming tenants will just pay up any price you shout out π
[3:20 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Sorry mine my naiveness totally out of touch.
I thought people can borrow loans from CPF or HDB?
That means no need to borrow from banks?
[3:20 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: They won’t hence some will move to lower rent…
[3:21 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: HDB loan also CPF maybe wrong lol..
Fixed rate… and more unlikely to kick you out if you didn’t pay on time π
[3:21 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: I seen 3 months onwards owe to HDB ask for deferment π€£
[3:21 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If bank different Liao
[3:22 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I see. Then it will be better to borrow from CPF or HDB.
Wonder what is the interest rate to pay if say borrow from them?
[3:22 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: But bank rates are definitely better
[3:22 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Bank are cheaper in rates… but will move up and down
[3:22 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Or maybe rents will have to fall?
Its really funny how people seem to forget that SG rental market had been in a multi-decade downtrend (even as property prices had been rising) until very very recently .. and for reasons that are not sustainable
[3:22 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I see.
[3:22 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: HDB is fixed until you finish
[3:22 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Or CPF rate goes up
[3:22 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
What is current fixed rate for HDB?
[3:23 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Usually HDB is 0.1 higher then CPF interest
[3:23 pm, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Fixed rate 2 years after increased 3%~4%
[3:23 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Follow CPF interest plus 0.1%
[3:23 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Oh which is 2.5%.
[3:23 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I mean 2.6%.
[3:24 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Then better to borrow from HDB or CPF.
[3:24 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: The Banks will not kick you out unless you are a real "goner" ... SG banks' loan books are 60-70% property related ,, killing you means killing themselves. They will always try to work out a deal so you keep paying for as long as you can.
[3:24 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Always ... CPF loan rate is 0.1% + OA interest rate
[3:25 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If you earn the same or higher… also no worries.. and can prepare for how many months for rainy days..
Bank interest… will float..
100k
For different percentage can be quite significant. Some one can explain lol not good with banking stuff lazy also
[3:25 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Can be monthly $500 different if up 1%… that I roughly know.. but can help anyone? π€£ noob here
[3:26 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: I was giving an example based on 400k loan
[3:26 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Then better to borrow from HDB / CPF.
Got a piece of mind.
[3:26 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: People charge roughly the same rates as each other, as much as they can get for the area.
[3:26 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: this time round, it is quite different...
Because the price of EVERYTHING has risen a lot .. and is still rising .. .the only thing not rising fast enough, is wages
[3:27 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: there is going to be more blood on the streets
[3:27 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Lol you haven’t seen those Goner at MPS. Lol
[3:27 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Hearing some company gonna freeze hiring very soon
[3:27 pm, 01/07/2022] +REACH: HDB announced in April that four HDB blocks in Ang Mo Kio had been selected for SERS. In May, they also announced the acquisition of some Marsiling flats to make way for the expansion of Woodlands Checkpoint.
We would love to hear your thoughts in this matter as well!
You may submit your responses here: https://go.gov.sg/reachqs-sers . This form will close today at 7pm.
[3:29 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Yes ... just like how Starbucks coffee is $7, you go to Yakun/Toastbox.. .when Yakun/Toastbox charge $3 for kopi-O, you probably will go kopitiam for $2 (by then) kopi ... if that is still too expensive, you will brew your own or drink less
[3:30 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: I have seen Goners everywhere ,,, my point is, the Banks will try to keep you in your flat for as long as they can .. because foreclosing at the first sign of trouble will lead to a cascade of foreclosures .. which is not in their interest
[3:30 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Not too hefty.
Young couples can still service the debt through 20 years.
Provided both couples remain employed throughout the 20 years.
[3:31 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: So that's a $740k propery on a 30% LtV. approx,
[3:31 pm, 01/07/2022] +KL: I dont think is LOL for ppl losing their flats
[3:31 pm, 01/07/2022] +KL: Please be mindful of ppl piles
[3:31 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: But you can add on the 500k / 240 months which goes into the monthly repayment too
[3:33 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Some is don’t want to pay… not cannot pay… there is a difference…
[3:33 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: But some quite poor thing… hence there to write with valid excuse to write those correct points to ask for deferment
[3:33 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: yes, so total is 2137+1180 = 3317 approx
[3:34 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: There are some really not worth pity…
[3:34 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
$2,137 a month to repay principal + interest.
If the young couples work - still affordable.
[3:35 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: At 2.6%, assuming you continue to pay your monthly mortgage till the end ... and i/r is a constant 2.6% ... you would have paid a total of $142k in interests ... that's 28% of your cost
[3:35 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: 3317 inc interest
[3:35 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Details cannot share but when go help you know..
[3:36 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I thought is $2,137 - which includes interest.
[3:36 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: what can you get with 625k (assuming 20% down payment, 500k loan)? If prices keep going up? Is it possible wages can keep pace?
[3:36 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Example was 740k property, 500k loan at 2.5%
[3:36 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Median income in SG is about 4k+ ...GROSS ....
[3:37 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Buy at your own means… that you can afford..
[3:37 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: The reason for this example was to highlight that a couple 'upgrading' to a condo after 5 years probably were wealthy enough that they didn't need the BTO in the first place.
[3:37 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Not everyone hits that amount π₯²
[3:37 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: SO ... my point is ... it is not sustainable to allow (or even assume) prices to keep rising
[3:38 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Yes, HDB prices should remain broadly in line with wages
[3:38 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: So if wages are up 3%, HDB should go up 3%
[3:38 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Err they are citizen so they get to benefit from the scheme π
[3:38 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: However, interest rates can affect property prices substantially
[3:38 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: The recent 10 year MOP is to prevent that
[3:39 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Maybe those on lower incomes or without financial support from parents should benefit a little more :)
[3:39 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: We have to be careful where we allocate our resources.
[3:39 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Yes true - that does solve the problem actually :)
[3:39 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: They get quite significant… believe high and Low.. Low income get up to 100k subsidy if not wrong
[3:40 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: But still not enough to buy central area π
[3:40 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: If you are Low income..
[3:40 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: It's probably fair enough if a couple want to upgrade from a BTO to a condo after 10 years - they were clearly not in it for a quick buck!
[3:41 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Some under estimate their income.. π€£
One friend pay out the whole house on his own CPF only..
300k cleared…. For 3rm BTO
[3:42 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: If that is the case, why not hope for no increase in prices and wages?
The difference being that a SG employee would be more cost-attractive if wages are not rising and rising right?
[3:42 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Sold 600k π scary… before 5 year MOP.
Anyway as long as your reason is legit it can be done before the MOP. Just don’t abuse it
[3:43 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: not restrictive enough
[3:43 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Can
[3:43 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Include long assignment overseas, staying near parents etc…
[3:43 pm, 01/07/2022] +BL: Can't see what the justification would be to sell before MOP is done, espcially if it looks like just to make a big profit.
[3:44 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Things change… who can see into the future
[3:44 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Suddenly need to move near parents or wheelchair bound etc…
[3:44 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: So government also have certain level of leeway
[3:45 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Lose job can’t afford anymore also possible
[3:45 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: then what about the young couple who are just starting out when you are in your 10th year?
I can see why you would be happy that your HDB/Property has gone up substantially ... but can you see that the yound couple will be struggling?
[3:46 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Divorced also can sell
[3:46 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Cases that I work ok before
[3:46 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: On” before
[3:46 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Outcome don’t know lol.. I don’t follow up..
[3:47 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: that is quite silly especially when CPF was paying a much higher interest as compared to Bank loans .. might make sense now ,, but the last 20years.. hmmm ....
[3:47 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Err pay out in 3 years… how silly? π
[3:47 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Different level
[3:49 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: use CPF to pay means you are owing your CPF the $ ... and interest will be charged at 0.1% + OA rate ,,,,, annual compounding, until you repay it back into your CPF π±
[3:49 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: CPF money don’t see one mah… like you can touch any time soon π
[3:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Ohh .. I . ... can ... soon π
[3:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Congrats
[3:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: π me 20 years more I think
[3:50 pm, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: This go the same accrued internet
[3:52 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: which is also a problem for your friend .. because over lets say 20yrs .. he would have to repay more than 200k in interest ... and that is assuming CPF OA interest remains at 2.5% (which is the legally mandated minimum rate)
[3:55 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: ok lah.. not that soon lah .. all relative ,, but not that far away liao ππππ
[3:56 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Hmm make sense.. I wonder if he use the other method
[3:56 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Check with him later…
[3:56 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Wonder if he does it for his new house
[3:57 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: it makes sense now to use CPF to pay down the mortgage because Mortgage interest has risen above OA rate
[3:58 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Crazy times...never ever thought HDB will go up like this again..!(after 2013 peak)
[4:01 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Bank interest rate for housing loan 2.65% to 2.75% - more than CPF HDB interest of 2.6%.
Then wouldn't it be better to borrow from HDB or CPF?
Got a peace of mind.
Because CPF OA interest have been 2.5% for many many years unchanged.
[4:05 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Supply demand.. I also never thought my side also up 50 to 100k π
[4:05 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Even thought old BTO flat
[4:06 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: If you have bough during previous peak now its time to sellπ
[4:06 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: For most people, rising property prices only translates into bigger loans to service ... the HDB upgrader will mostly take the profits from selling after MOP as down payment for a condo ... ie. larger loan, higher monthly mortgage repayments, probably more bills to pay as family dynamics/commitments evolve ... kids, cars, holidays, fine dining, luxury goods .... and people wonder why our society seem to be less tolerant and increasingly unkind nowadays
[4:06 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: … 2020 before pandemic.. still haven’t MOP. And I like this area… as I say buy to stay..
[4:07 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Then good.just keep itππ½.
[4:09 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Unless I want to move out need to redo all my stuff π
[4:10 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Woh nice place
[4:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Cool
[4:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Haha now like shit… when I move in π
[4:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Move also need to patch back to wall..
[4:15 pm, 01/07/2022] +Ken Loh: Unless new owner want a hole in the wall π€£
[4:52 pm, 01/07/2022] +RH: Likewise, I m out of touch w how things work these days.
But I wud just like to state my frustrations here over my son's inability to get the BTO of his choice.
He is certainly not one of the first timers who hv bn successful in getting his flat.
Worse, after rejecting the offer of flat offered for the 3rd time, he has now bn barred for one year fr applying.
My qn :
Why the bar for a first timer?
Fr my observations, each BTO exercise is always heavily over-subscribed.
My son is always at the back of the queue. Is it any wonder tt what's left are not choice selections?
My son's criteria are simple :
* A 4R or 5R flat for first timer.
* He wants it to be his lifetime abode.
* He wants to be able to claim proximity & family subsidies, etc.,
(I live in the East)
* He prefers a high floor (>6) as we hv bn used to living on high flr
*He wants to secure the flat b4 he gets married
* It must be affordable
To Reach or anyone in HDB listening out ther,
Here r my qns & suggestions:
1. Remove the bar of one year , for First Timers , esp in the light of a tight housing mkt at the moment for this grp of ppl.
2. Instead, hv a committee or dept in HDB to look into (and listen) to these first timers why they hv rejected or bn rejected in their appn?
Understand their needs and look into to helping these first timers get their first home.
After all, isn't it HDB's mantra to help every Sungaporean find a home?
But not in 10 years' time, for goodness sakes!
2. We r short of land. But my understanding of the Close proximity grant is tt it is tagged to the estate.
So, if I live in the East, but my son applies for BTO in Tengah, cos u're not building anywhere else ... , does tt mean he does not qualify for the grant?
If tt is correct, then I wud like to suggest tt this be modified (?) such tt the applicant can still qualify altho parent is not living close by.
Reason : it is not my son's fault tt HDB decides to build in Tengah and I live in the East.
How else do u think he can get a subsidised flat on his salary tt is just enuff to afford a BTO at subsidised rates ?
3. Can HDB reveal the locations wher they will build in the year ahead , so tt first timers dun hv to wait in anticipation?
4. From the looks of it, it does not seem likely tt u wl be building in the East any time soon.
Tt means , given the abv circumstances, my son may hv to wait a long time to get a BTO in the East , (bye bye to marriage plans), or resort to Resale flats.
Which leads to another challenge ...
With rising , even runaway prices, flats gg for > $1m, how can the ordinary, average person afford to buy one?
And if budding First-timers like my case , cannot get their own flat, how do u expect them to start a family soon & do their bit to contribute to SG ?
π€
[4:52 pm, 01/07/2022] +RH: Therefore, I think HDB seriously needs to re look into some of their policies & update them ...
[4:56 pm, 01/07/2022] +RH: Ther shd be some control over the prices of HDB resale flats.
BTO flats shd be priced more affordable.
Housing subsidies tt involve proximity shd be reviewed, esp since we hv no control over wher HDB is building next.
HDB to show, in advance, areas wher they will be building within the next 12 months, to allow applicants to make better decisions and choices.
[5:23 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: I think these are similar frustrations for everyone.
Unfortunately, I think lifting restrictions will not make it easier for your son to get the BTO of his choice since the pool of applicants will increase.
The fact that your son had rejected BTOs offered to him 3 times, also (I am not saying this is THE message) sends the message to HDB/Govt that he is not in such a hurry (nor desperate enough) to get a flat.
The 1 year "ban", is penalising your son in your view, but it would have also worked in his favour. There are obviously others who were similarly barred ahead of him, hence, increasing his odds that, despite him being at the end of the queue, was still able to secure a BTO unit, albeit not one that met all of his criteria.
Removing the "penalty", again does not necessarily improve his odds since EVERYONE will just throw their lot into the pool since there is no limit to the number of tries.
The rules are clear.
Your son's criteria are "simple". So is everyone else's. In fact, the ones who took up the units your son gave up - 3 times - have even simpler criteria. In fact, they were even further BEHIND in the Q than your son.
Ultimately, it all boils down to compromise. Unless of course, what you are really asking for, is a special concession for your son so that he gets to choose his perfect BTO ahead of everyone else who might or might nor have been more deserving.
[6:00 pm, 01/07/2022] +REACH: HDB announced in April that four HDB blocks in Ang Mo Kio had been selected for SERS. In May, they also announced the acquisition of some Marsiling flats to make way for the expansion of Woodlands Checkpoint.
We would love to hear your thoughts in this matter as well!
You may submit your responses here: https://go.gov.sg/reachqs-sers . This form will close today at 7pm.
[6:03 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: How and When A blk will be announced for SERS is not disclosed.
The decision has been made...
[6:04 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: So now No choice but the Residents need to Accept it :)
[6:05 pm, 01/07/2022] +Frankie Wee: Too bad they must pay top renew lease
[6:07 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Funny how you phrase it .. from my observations throughout the years, people actually pay a premium when they think a certain block has SERS potential
[6:07 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: That's long ago i guess..
Not anymore
[6:08 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: They can choose to Sell .. AT A PREMIUM to someone who might want a chance to get a new flat with a slight top-up in a location that they would otherwise have to pay an arm and a leg for
[6:11 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Not 100% sure .. but I can't imagine anyone who would be unhappy with a windfall from SERS ... 30+ yo flats ie. bought at 100-200k?? ... replace with brand new one nearby with a small top-up .. 5yrs later (if the current prices/trend hold...as many believe it would) .. sell for 1 million ... Not sure about you, but it definitely sounds like a windfall to me
[6:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: For me i always wanted SERSπ
But Don't know when and which blk..if not i would have bought.
(Same sentiments )
But read that some old folks not happy with it.. so just showing concern about them..
[6:14 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Singaporeans are never happy .. haven't you noticed?
[6:15 pm, 01/07/2022] +Suma pamu: Hmm may be you are right
[6:15 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: No matter what you give them or what they have .. they will somehow be able to find something about it to be unhappy about .. rather than be content and appreciate what they have
[6:16 pm, 01/07/2022] +Rama: Agree
[6:19 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: That's why I think it takes a special breed of people to be Ministers/MPs in Singapore. No matter what they do, it is never good enough .. why? Because a lot of Singaporeans think $1 million very big .. too high a salary to pay our Ministers ... but think nothing about demanding 1 million for their old flats π
[6:21 pm, 01/07/2022] +Rama: ππ€£π π€¦♂️π€·♂️π
[6:22 pm, 01/07/2022] +Smiley face: We moved to a system where each HDB flat is priced differently to reflect its real value. We cannot price a new flat in Punggol or Tanjong Pagar the same, because when they are resold, we know there will be a tremendous difference in price. From the 1980s, we moved towards a market-based system. By liberalizing the resale market and allowing HDB prices to move in tandem with the economy, we unlocked the value of HDB flats to allow citizens to share in the fruits of the nation’s growth. Home ownership of a HDB flat is a store of value that can be monetized when needs be.
- - Lee Kuan Yew (2009)
[6:22 pm, 01/07/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.nas.gov.sg/archivesonline/data/pdfdoc/20091221001.htm
[6:25 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: Exactly.. they needed to create the wealth through appreciation of value of people's HDB flats .. .otherwise the majority would not have been able to keep up with the breakneck growth and inflation of moving from 3rd world to 1st World Nation/Economy.
We do not need that anymore.
DPM Lawrence Wong had (previously) said as much. We have to adjust our "thinking" about what our HDB/Property is for going forward.
[6:26 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: There is no further jump upwards from "Developed" status
[6:28 pm, 01/07/2022] +GLCM: Public housing as an intent, first and foremost. Long overdue review of housing policy.
[6:33 pm, 01/07/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
My close friend comments:-
The problem gov/hdb is facing now is to meet the multiple criteria of prospective home owners.
Is it not time to rationalize with younger buyers and help the settle for more realistic expectations?
I recalled my parents were elated when they were allocated a 3 room flat. So was my neighbour.
We were a family of 6 and my neighbour family has 9 members. They were so happy to be able to own a home.
But as time pass by, gov/hdb gave people a chance to upgrade to bigger flats.
Younger couples can apply for 4 room and 5 room regardless of family size.
I understand this was a surprising point to hongkongers from YouTube video.
Huh?
Size of flat depends on income and not size of family?
Then there were hudc which is now sought after for enbloc and owners can pocket approx $2M. So what was home is also an asset. A lottery prize. Good if it is sustainable. But is it?
My child tried BTO. And like most youngster I believe had listed a couple of criteria as his home. Good but successful? So hard? So his peers all asked for the same or even higher criteria.
I sat down with him to prioritize what is most important and those lesser important criteria. He can try forever based on his criteria and by which time, perhaps the prospective couple may exceed the income ceiling set by hdb. So is it better to have a bird in hand?
We looked hard at the bto numbers available, studied hdb criteria, do some guesswork about the applicants. And spotted a glimpse of hope. Jalan besar 3 room flat ballot ratio for young couple look seems to be below 2. And all the PLH criteria were annoying to them. But they still go for it.
Finally, they were successful and took time to mince what all the PLH criteria means to them, the long lead time etc and take stride to plan their lives around it.
We all live on this tiny island, how to please everyone?
[6:41 pm, 01/07/2022] +Rama: Government has to back track some how and relook housing policies
[6:44 pm, 01/07/2022] +Joseph: they already are.. people just do not see it or worse, do not want to see that it is already happening… And as usual, when it is too late, they will complain that the Govt didn’t take care of them and left them behind .. after all their “contributions” to nation building blah blah blah π
[6:46 pm, 01/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan
[6:48 pm, 01/07/2022] +Smiley face: Allocation policies?
Sales policies?
Resale policies?
Application policies?
Balloting policies?
Queue policies?
[6:58 pm, 01/07/2022] +Smiley face: 1 July, 2022
To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members
"Your First Investment (δ½ η第δΈζ‘Άι)"
Yesterday Dwellers:
Couple with 2 children, domestic help and 1 car.
Bought 5 rm HDB in Bedok Town in the early 1990s for $156k.
Home loan fully paid in 2010.
Couple enjoy continuous employment till today.
Both couple are into 55 yrs range and healthy.
Both CPF account balance more than $1.5m.
For retirement funds planning, each can draw up to $1.6k monthly from own CPF account.
Today Buyers:
Just married couple in early 30s, 1 pet and 1 car.
Bought 4 rm HDB near to city area for $750k and loan tenure of 30 years.
Both couple presently employed and childless.
Lessons:
1) Health is wealth. Put priority on needs over wants.
2) Continuous lifetime employment (assumes up to 65 yrs) of 1 or both with Incremental salaries will yield a stable retirement after age 60 and above.
3) Let the first home be affordable and later on upgrade to better location or bigger unit or second property. Don't overly commit one's finances.
4) Those whom CPF OA with minimal amount or less will have to depend on other means of income during retirement period.
5) 1 child or 2 children or childless, these couples (yesterday or tomorrow) will have a comfortable retiring years.
6) Importantly, the power of compounding interest earned in CPF accounts will be your second pot of gold into your golden age of retirement.
Archive:
https://www.nas.gov.sg/archivesonline/data/pdfdoc/20091221001.htm
- - END - -
[7:00 pm, 01/07/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
=====
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