REACH (Telegram) 49 - What are your views on Minister’s plans and aspirations for Singapore’s education system?

(SK)

03 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 10:31 AM]

Dear Contributors,

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Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 10:36 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

In an interview with The Straits Times, Education Minister Chan Chun Sing noted the following plans and aspirations for Singapore’s education system.

- A review of the DSA scheme is among MOE’s top priorities for 2025, to make it more accessible and with more varied learning options.

- Personalise learning for students through having a variety of pathways. 

- Students should be taught on how to use devices purposefully rather than shielding them from screens.

- Quality of teachers as a greater determinant of educational outcomes than class size.

💬 What are your views on Minister’s plans and aspirations for Singapore’s education system?

📌 Review of DSA scheme among MOE’s top priorities for 2025

Mr Chan said that MOE’s plans include a review of the DSA process as part of efforts to “strengthen the middle” and “stretch the top”, offering more options and tailored pathways for students. The ongoing review will result in changes that aim to ensure that schools focus on students' development, the selection process remains objective and transparent, and DSA continues to be accessible. 

"We will insist and encourage that if you have a DSA system in your school, you must demonstrate development," Mr Chan said. The school needs to show that it is good at the activity not just because of its pre-selected students, but its ability to cultivate potential across the board.  

The selection process will look at identifying not just performance, but also potential, said Mr Chan. This ties in with increasing accessibility to students who may not have the same training opportunities as their peers, Mr Chan said, which is why the ministry will be “intensifying” various programmes in primary schools for teachers to help “talent spot”.

📌 Variety of pathways

Another priority for 2025 will be to "personalise" learning for students. There are many pathways for students to take, including work-study diplomas and degrees, and even customising their own majors in universities, Mr Chan said. 

For younger cohorts, the removal of exams was not aimed at solely removing stress but more to "create time and space for people to learn". More than content knowledge, students will also be pushed to learn more life skills and given confidence to be themselves and "know what makes (them) special", he said. 

📌 Teaching students how to use devices purposefully

Mr Chan said that Singapore does not take a binary view of device usage, and that this approach of not banning devices is more challenging, but more practical at the same time.

Despite potential dangers of unsupervised device consumption, students should not be prevented from using devices, but be taught how to use them purposefully, he said. 

“We have to guide them on how to use the device and when to use the device.” Schools already ban the use of mobile phones during lesson time, he said. Parents also need to manage usage of devices at home, while understanding their children’s needs. He further noted that educating all students on cyber wellness and cyber security is essential, so that they learn how to use devices responsibly.  

📌 Quality of teachers as a more crucial factor of educational outcomes than class size

Though some suggest that hiring more teachers would reduce class sizes, that does not guarantee good teacher quality, said Mr Chan. The number of teachers has declined over the years due to a slowdown in recruitment, but Mr Chan said the teacher to student ratio has improved, partly due to smaller student cohort sizes. 

Mr Chan said that Singapore’s focus is to maximise teachers’ capabilities and capacities, and one way to do this is to stop teaching to the average. He noted that subject-based banding allows teachers to be much more targeted in the way they deliver lessons and improves their teaching load. Educational technology can also be used to cater to students' different learning needs, Mr Chan said.

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 10:36 AM]

Additionally, he raised societal respect for teachers as another important aspect - where it is not only about establishing boundaries on communication, but also respecting the teachers’ professionalism, their time and personal space. 

🔗 https://str.sg/Agmf

🔗 https://str.sg/dCLp

🔗 https://str.sg/MTCL

----

G, [3/1/2025 10:57 AM]

@reachsg1 @reachsg2 @reachsg3 

This greeting is very disappointing. The word "Christmas" doesn't even appear, and there are no Christian/Catholic related visuals in your greeting for this religious holidays that Christians/Catholics celebrate.

Contrast this with your greetings for other religious holidays; the names of those other religious holidays actually appear in all your greetings (i.e. Deepavali, Hari Raya, Vesak etc) 

This the 3rd year I and many others have raised this (from previous REACH WhatsApp groups), and requested that Christians/Catholics be accorded the same level of respect from REACH in their religious holiday greetings. And each year you say you will do better.

Is this year's greeting a continued slight against Christians/ Catholics? 

Why the continued indifference / disrespect to Christians/Catholics?

Is it too much to expect THE govt feedback department in MDDI to take action on direct feedback on your religious holiday greetings communications on your feedback channel? 

Or does this have to be raised to your minister before action on the feedback be taken?

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 11:36 AM]

1. Notice that the Government is not focusing on one size fits all curriculum from secondary school all the way to University is the right move.

2. As today's working world is very dynamic, diverse, fast moving and need wide ranging of knowledge and diverse skills to cope with the fast changing requirements, students ability to customise their major, minor and subjects in schools and universities are valuable.

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 11:37 AM]

[ Poll : I agree that Minister Chan's upcoming plans and aspirations for Singapore's education system (i.e. changes to the DSA scheme, having a variety of pathways, purposeful use of devices and quality of teachers) will result in better outcomes for students. ]

- Agree

- Neutral

- Disagree

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 11:41 AM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls 📊 and share your opinion 💭. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 11:42 AM]

1. Eg. AI research and development will require very strong foundation in STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) - coding skills, strong math & statistics foundation very important.

2. On top of that, candidate will require domain knowledge of each industry sectors to tailor AI model to the respective industries.

3. Hence not only deep knowledge and skillsets of the specialised skills are needed from the skilled workers, horizontal knowledge cutting across the industries are also needed.

G, [3/1/2025 11:42 AM]

We also look forward to your response to our highlighting of your continued less than adequate religious holiday greetings

Jun Ming, [3/1/2025 11:42 AM]

I like there's a variety of pathways. But... the number of vacancies are very limited. For eg. Ite DPP and higher nitech it's very competitive why don't the gov open more vacancies for students to learn?

Jun Ming, [3/1/2025 11:44 AM]

As the result some students may stuck in o levels which are not suited for them or end up in an undesirable course which may not suit them

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [3/1/2025 11:47 AM]

Yep, in the working world, experience and skills are important, and although the Government’s stance is moving more towards not focusing on certificates, other benefits from Higher and Tertiary Education such as curiosity, critical thinking, networking with peers etc should not be discounted, thus it would be better if as many of the population are able to have higher and tertiary education, to gain the soft skills.

Jun Ming, [3/1/2025 11:47 AM]

I think some courses especially science only offered in ite college east. Would gov consider open courses in west and central?

Jun Ming, [3/1/2025 11:48 AM]

Not to say Singapore lack of nurse but only college east offer nursing

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 11:51 AM]

1. Additionally, AI workers are even expected to have some grounding in psychology, behavioural science, cognitive skills etc.

2. Eg. Reinforcement learning, neural network, machine learning etc emulating how a brain think, deep learning etc.

3. Computer vision processing of image, video; voice recognition etc.

4. Processing of bio health data eg. Pulse rate, heart beat, blood flow etc to establish biometric liveliness etc.

Steven Ong, [3/1/2025 12:07 PM]

We may want to take reference from Germany and Japan in terms of their educational pathways to encourage similar mindset as what MOE heading towards..

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 12:07 PM]

1. On top of that, AI developers developing robots, autonomous systems, drones - are expected to have grounding in electrical engineering and mechanical engineering.

2. Hence to summarise, an AI professional needs for diverse skillsets and knowledge is not an understatement.

3. Hence demand for AI professionals are very high and very short of such talents - hence high pay.

4. So the government making school curriculum diverse, allowing students to customise their major, minor and subjects come in timely - to meet the dynamic changing needs of the industries.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 12:19 PM]

As commented previously, to ensure biometric authentication is full proof - one of the technique is to establish "Biometric liveliness".

That is whether the person who login is a life person, the right DNA, biometric features - not a scammer, a dead person, a deepfake video, or a still image.

Hence, biometric liveliness such as fingerprint, palm print, vein, facial features etc are used.

And as we discussed, the dark web is busy harvesting biometric data from unsuspecting people and using 3D modelling, deepfake and realtime animation to emulate biometric liveliness.

So tackling online scamming is a continuous process and require diverse skillsets and knowledge to have a legs up against scammers.

Even biometric liveliness measures are not enough to protect people from being scam.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 12:20 PM]

"Dark Web Facial ID Farm Warning—Hackers Build Identity Fraud Database".

Do not give away your biometric data even if commercial firms pay for your biometric eg. your facial scan, fingerprint, palm print etc - because dark web hackers are harvesting your biometric data to hack into your banks etc in future.

Even biometric liveliness to determine if a real person login - can be compromise by 3D modelling, deepfake and realtime animation.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/12/26/dark-web-face-id-farm-warning-as-hackers-build-identity-fraud-database/

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 12:27 PM]

1. Understand the logic of addiction to devices such as smartphone, tablet, laptop or PC to access social media and games.

2. But technologies are moving very fast and industries require workers to be proficient in using such devices to perform their work using that will greatly improve their productivity.

3. Hence schools, IHL and university shouldn't ban such devices but put in safeguard to prevent students from device addiction but yet able to exploit such devices to enhance their learning.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 12:40 PM]

1. I specially agree with the Minister emphasis on skillsets, knowledge based on project completion rather than test smart and exam smart.

2. More weightage should be based on the ability to complete a sizable individual project &/or group project.

3. Notice that some students put less weightage on project work but focus more on content so as to score well in test and exam - and mostly neglected the projects.

4. Nowadays, generative AI, Google and search engines are abundant - easily can churn out many content, information, and facts in minutes.

There is no need to memorise such content.

5. But doing project work will test the understanding of a student knowledge in that subject, how to apply the knowledge and bring it into fruition by developing projects that the industry wants and valued and able to exercise critical thinking.

6. Going forward, this should be the emphasis of our education system - to be work-smart, project-smart, not exam-smart.

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [3/1/2025 12:50 PM]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 12:52 PM]

Having say so, biometric authentication, biometric liveliness should not be the only authentication mechanism for financial transactions in an open internet.

It should also augmented with login password, digital token and other means via multi-factor authentication.

Also strong protection of biometric data become imperative - not to be stolen by hackers and scammers.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 1:10 PM]

1. One thing come to my mind.

2. Notice that population as a whole have very little knowledge and very weak in economics - to be able to understand :-

- how government policies are formulated, 

- why certain policies are needed, 

- why taxes are required (in which understanding of fiscal policy will be required),

- why inflation occurs, movement of exchange rate and interest rate to cushion the impact of inflation, how monetary policy works,

- how workers salaries are determined and the topics on productivity,

- microeconomics of demand and supply and macroeconomics,

- scarcity, opportunity cost

- comparative advantage.

3. Suggest that economic should be a mandatory subject for JC, polytechnic, ITE and University.

4. This will enable the larger educated population to have a better appreciation of how government policies work.

5. And feedback sessions to the government from the population will be more meaningful as population will be more enlightened on how public policies and government policies works and why such policies are necessary.

6. In fact every facet of our lives - touches Economics - whether housing, jobs, manufacturing, finances, healthcare etc are about demand and supply, pricing, exchange of labour, finances, taxes we pay eg. GST, income tax, property tax, corporate tax etc.

7. So making Economic a compulsory subject for higher secondary and IHLs will be extremely useful for the larger educated population to understand government policies and engage government in a more productive manner.

G, [3/1/2025 1:22 PM]

We also look forward to your response to our highlighting of your continued less than adequate religious Christian holiday greetings

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 1:25 PM]

1. And another important subject that should also be make compulsory for higher secondary and IHLs - should be financial management.

2. That is how much to set aside for savings once started work, how to grow their passive income, how to invest prudently, how to save for retirement, how to save for rainy days etc.

3. This will ensure our population is retirement ready very early the moment they start work.

4. And will be more prepared when career crisis hit, as tech and career disruption will be more frequent.

5. The more well prepared the population are in this life savings skills, the less the government will have to worry in indulging in social welfare policies as the population can be self sufficient.

6. And the less stress for the population on how to finance their retirement.

RY, [3/1/2025 1:25 PM]

I also felt that SG children lacks budgetting and financial skills 

Students may be guide from childhood how to diferentiate scams

So that they may grow up to be more vigilant/prudent in their  finances and spending and knowledge and etc

And many scams are happening and targetting to SG, since we are one of the richest country, and overall SG population lacks the vigilant and knowledge and fall prey to scammers easily 

Maybe MOE may include curriculum of financial aspects eg budgetting and etc in SG education system since young

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [3/1/2025 1:48 PM]

Budgeting in SG Education System since early education is a good idea, for other Social Sciences such as Economics etc, how do we ensure that Students are being exposed to the myriad of theories so that they can have the knowledge and thinking skills to judge for themselves, and not sticking to the only narrative that is accepted by the Government ?

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 1:53 PM]

Economic is universal concept.

Not government narrative.

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 2:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [3/1/2025 2:02 PM]

Universal in terms of ? I am sure people in the Middle Ages to the start of the Enlightenment Period don’t live in a Neo-Classical Economic System as we now do etc.

Daniel, [3/1/2025 2:07 PM]

You are aware that this is a one-way feefback channel, right? I think if you want a response, then this might not be the right place.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 2:08 PM]

Demand and supply is a universal concept.

Price is a universal concept.

Exchange of labour is a universal concept.

Macroeconomic is a universal concept.

Market economy and planned economy are universal concept.

It is taught by economists independent of politics and independent of government.

It is a concept of how people live, exchange goods, create wealth, earn a living independent of politics.

Government who don't apply the appropriate economic concept and principles will often result in a fail economy.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 2:09 PM]

Enlightenment period?

Not yet.

G, [3/1/2025 2:10 PM]

Not true. @reachsg1 did reply to previous years feedback regarding christian holidays directly in their WhatsApp groups.

It was through these groups that they made promises to do better and it wasn't their intention to slight Christians

G, [3/1/2025 2:13 PM]

The REACH admins replying through these groups is also chance for them to directly address concerns regarding their department without the need to escalate to internal higher authorities 

If this is not appreciated and they would prefer if their inadequate Christian holiday greetings be escalated to their bosses then so be it

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 2:27 PM]

During Stone Age, human hunt animals and no-trade.

Hunting animals at that time is universal concept.

Now in modern age, people use money, jobs, trade.

Hence Economic is now the universal concept of modern time.

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [3/1/2025 2:46 PM]

I would use the term “Defining Features” etc, not “Universal”, to my understanding “Universal” is used to describe things like Gravity, which is objectively present since the Big Bang, and is a real phenomenon whether humans exist or not and does not change with the times.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 2:56 PM]

Well I am open to terms that accurately promote understanding.

Not a problem to change the term of reference or label for clarity and understanding.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:09 PM]

1. I am particularly concerned that democracy promote populist policies from government that help to win votes - for short term and immediate gratification but laden the country of future generations with long term sufferings and burden.

2. Eg. A democratic government to win votes, keep accumulating fiscal debt to the mammoth amount of $36 trillions dollars that in no way, future generations can finance - to please the voters and win elections without adhering to economic fundamental and prudent financial principles.

3. Print money (quantitative easing), even thinking of using speculative assets such as Bitcoins devoid of the economic fundamental of monetary policy to repay debt - that will impact credit rating of a country and devalue the worth of the currency.

4. Implement tariffs and sanctions to curb trade and defy sound macroeconomic fundamental of Exchange of Labor that determine optimal pricing.

5. Curb free flow of talents that will make a country competitive.

6. Curb investment and export of goods in the name of national security.

And many protectionists measure that contradict sound economic principles and financial fundamental - is a sure way of making the national economy, global economy fails - and a hotbed that promotes conflict and confrontation domestically and between countries.

Hence educating the entire population on sound economic concept - is a good way to ensure population are enlightened to how and why government policies are implemented.

This will prevent democratic system promoting populist sentiment due to ignorance that induce immediate gratification at the expense of long term sound economic and financial fundamental - a burden to be inherited by all our future descendants and young generations.

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:11 PM]

1. Current policies that benefit the ageing at the expense of young is populist no hope for future

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:11 PM]

Huh?

Example of such policies?

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:12 PM]

Idk but for some reason, young people cant have the same opportunities in housing as in the past

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:12 PM]

What goes up cannot go down

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:13 PM]

I thought now government allow single to own at least a 3 room HDB flat?

Previously not allow.

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:14 PM]

Even couple find it hard get bto

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:14 PM]

My uncle drive grab cannot even get grant for single hdb and cannot afford afford whatever is out there

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:15 PM]

If not choosy can get one.

Also SBF balance flat for those who need immediate flat to marry can get quite easily.

My nephew and nieces got their flats through SBF.

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:16 PM]

I was looking for sbf flat. I see like not available these days

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:16 PM]

Is there a different website to look?

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:17 PM]

Don't know, got to find out why no grants.

I thought grant is a sure get feature for those who apply for flats.

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:17 PM]

Probably something weird in system

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:17 PM]

I think call up HDB.

SBF abundant.

Sure get one - if not choosy.

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:17 PM]

I check he already report tax to iras but for some reason the system cannot see

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:18 PM]

Oh call up instead of online?

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:18 PM]

Wah i try to get appt with hdb, cannot find one

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:19 PM]

Go to HDB hub toa payoh to check with the officers.

Sometimes website may not give you all the right answers.

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:19 PM]

Its like they trying to divert everyone to chatbot and other auto stuff without thinking some need case by case

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:19 PM]

Can call their hotlines to book an appointment.

Don't use their website.

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:20 PM]

I saw people queuing in HDB hub for queue number.

Adam, [3/1/2025 3:21 PM]

Ok ill try help my family. Must really talk to a person

LCL (Danny 心), [3/1/2025 3:21 PM]

Try going down to the HDB hub.

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 4:00 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 5:03 PM]

Dear Contributors,

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your views on Minister’s plans and aspirations for Singapore’s education system?

We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active! 

Do also share your opinion by participating in our polls! The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

Thank you!

Megan 😊

G, [3/1/2025 5:10 PM]

Will there be any response to our highlighting of your continued less than adequate religious Christian holiday greeting?

Why the slight against Christians in your religious holiday greetings?

G, [3/1/2025 5:12 PM]

e.g. This is your greetings to those of the Hindu faith

The name of the religious holiday is shown

RY, [3/1/2025 5:13 PM]

Thought today's discussion is about SG education system ......

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [3/1/2025 5:16 PM]

Holiday Greetings, Birthdays etc are supposed to be out of good will ? I don’t think the Government have an obligation to extend greetings to every single Religions’ Holidays ?

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [3/1/2025 5:21 PM]

ANW, I heard from many of my Uni Friends, maybe Poly Students also feel similarly, about having to take many General Education modules that they feel is not so related to their Majors and Specialisations, so maybe General Education modules can still be present, but to contextualise them to be more related, relevant and integral to the different Majors and Specialisations ?

G, [3/1/2025 5:55 PM]

Yet somehow @reachsg have continued their slight against Christians over the years.

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 6:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

RY, [3/1/2025 6:25 PM]

I do concur smaller size class per teacher ratio, may bring more quality teaching also

RY, [3/1/2025 6:32 PM]

Overall, parents in SG do much show respect to their children teachers 

In fact we do have quality teachers in SG teaching, as SG education is one of the best in the world

As SG students do achieve one of the top 3 in world competitions 

And most teachers are quite passionate in their teaching career in my opinion

Though they are not highest paid eg Aussie, but SG teachers remumeration are considered well paid with career progression

RY, [3/1/2025 6:36 PM]

Not forgetting those handicapped children education

MOE should also focus more on the education in special needs children, as SG Govt promoting a more inclusive society 

And this vulnerable group should also be taken care of sametime, so that they may integrate with society when they grow up later

RY, [3/1/2025 6:40 PM]

In fact, SG education system has much improved over the years, compared to my era 

From "spoon-feeding" to 'thinking of the box" creative mindset type of education

Dr. Goh, [3/1/2025 6:43 PM]

The old system of gep was flawed anyway. Can be gamed, and spends a lot more resources on kids of parents who can afford to pay to win, since their classes are way smaller and content is taught earlier.

Dr. Goh, [3/1/2025 6:44 PM]

Class size makes a huge difference to quality of education. Otherwise why do parents pay to send kids for tuition and insist on small class sizes and other requirements?

Dr. Goh, [3/1/2025 6:45 PM]

For DSA it is more nurture than nature. Another pay to win scheme. You can't expect the talent of future tennis champions to be honed for DSA without cold hard cash.

Dr. Goh, [3/1/2025 6:46 PM]

If really serious about spotting talents from young，spend the money on school resources, make sure kids can access as many options as possible. That is how u find real talents.

RY, [3/1/2025 6:47 PM]

However I also notice that the chinese language standard of today students are not as good compare to my era 

I unsure why the drop of chinese (mother-tongue language) standard ...

Maybe MOE may try to further improve on the learning of "mother-tongue" language

As it is a language also, and it is as essential as english language too

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 6:47 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

RY, [3/1/2025 6:51 PM]

I am glad to see the good move by MOE strategy from a more "academic focus" to a more "learning focus", with lesser exams for students 

And sametime trying to instill this mindset to students-parents also 

Learning should be happy and enjoyable process for children

RY, [3/1/2025 6:53 PM]

Beside academic, different kids may have different talents eg non-academic like sports/music and etc 

MOE may try to scout such talents fm the children and let them nurture towards their talents

RY, [3/1/2025 6:56 PM]

MOE may also further study Israel type of education system, which promote more entrepreneurship after their basic 10yr education, rather than straight to University tertiary education

RY, [3/1/2025 6:59 PM]

Thanks Megan for starting this discussion also to voice our views 🙏

RY, [3/1/2025 6:59 PM]

Gd Evening everybody !

REACH Singapore, [3/1/2025 7:01 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

====

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@Babe:天道 - 提倡天条，权力。职管赏罚 - 不得 证空。

佛 提倡因果 - 不谋 权力 - 证空。

@Babe: 佛证 - 四大皆空 （风水火土），五蕴皆空 （色受想行识）- 不生不灭。圆满究竟。

道提倡 - 求富，求福，求平安，不能放下 世间法 - 天界有生灭 - 不了义，不圆满。

@Babe: 道 - 我执 （极重）- 盛满的茶杯还能盛无量的智慧和慈悲吗？

佛 - 无我执 （超凡人圣）

@Babe: 我执不空，涅槃不达. (Strong attachment to Ego - Emptiness unreachable. Enlightenment cannot be attained).

@Babe: 玉王大帝 执管 三界 （欲界，色界，出色界天）- desire planes, form heavenly plane, formless heavenly plane.

佛 - 跳出三界 (attain out of 3 planes of existence) (Nirvana Emptiness - Not physical plane of existence 涅槃 空 不生不灭。）

@Babe:@Babe:道教 (Taoism) - 提倡 道 (advocate Tao)，阴阳 (Ying Yang)，乾坤 - 被境界 (State of Existence) 所束缚 (bounded by State of Existence)。谋福报 (indulgence in sensual desire, prosperity, wealth)。

境界只达 天界 (Attainment reaches Heavenly Realm of Existence) - 不能证涅槃 - 空的境界(Unable to attain Emptiness of Nirvana - the ultimate root of existence) 。、

@Babe:佛 (Buddha) - 证空 (Attain Emptiness - 4 Great Element Emptiness (Physical), 5 Mental Aggregate Emptiness (Mental))，不起心动念 (No arising of stray thoughts)。不生不灭 (No birth, No death - Eternal Bliss)。

超越 天界 (Exceed all Heavenly Realms albeit All Realms of Existence)。

@Babe:天道 (Taoism) - 提倡天条 (Advocate Heavenly Law)，权力 (Heavenly Authority and Power)。职管赏罚 (Administer Rewards and Punishment) - 不得 证空 (Unable to attain Ultimate Emptiness - due to strong attachment to Ego, Heavenly Law, Authority, Power, Rewards and Punishment)。

佛 (Buddha) 提倡因果 (Advocate Universal Law of Karma - "You reap what you sow" - Individual determine own destiny (to reap reward or punishment) through "Cause and Effect") - 不谋 权力 (Not Administering Reward and Punishment, Not hunger for Authority, Power) - 证空 (Attain Universal Emptiness - due to "Not Attachment" or Desires for Power。

@Babe: 佛证 - 四大皆空 （风水火土），五蕴皆空 （色受想行识）(Attain Emptiness - 4 Great Element Emptiness - Wind, Water, Temperature, Matter (Physical), 5 Mental Aggregate Emptiness - 5 sense consciousness, feelings, perception, judgement, mental formation (Mental))- 不生不灭。圆满究竟 (No Birth, No Death) (Ultimate Perfection of Attainment)。

道提倡 (Taoism advocate) - 求富，求福，求平安，不能放下 世间法 (seeking wealth, prosperity, peace, unable to let go of mundane livings) - 天界有生灭 (Various Heavenly Realms have its respective lifespan - some extremely long that give the false perception of infinity) - 不了义，不圆满 (But it is not the Ultimate Perfection of Infinite Blissful Existence)。

@Babe: 道 (Taoism) - 我执 （极重）(Extremely Strong Attachment of Ego) - 盛满的茶杯还能盛无量的智慧和慈悲吗？(When a cup is full (Strong Ego), how to accomodate boundless infinite Wisdom and Compassion?)

佛 (Buddha) - 无我执 (Attain "No-Self", "No Ego"（超凡人圣）- Transformation of Mundane to Supramundane Nirvana.

@Babe: 我执不空，涅槃不达. (Strong attachment to Ego - Emptiness unreachable. Enlightenment cannot be attained).

@Babe: 玉王大帝 (Taoism Heavenly God Emperor) 执管 三界 （欲界，色界，出色界天）- administer the Sensual Desire planes (Hell, Hungry Ghost, Animal, Human, Asura and Sensual Desire Heavenlyy Plane Realm), Form Heavenly plane, Formless Heavenly plane.

佛 (Buddha) - 跳出三界 (attain out of 3 planes of existence) (Nirvana Emptiness - Not physical plane of existence 涅槃 空 不生不灭。(No Birth, No Death). 

The Origin of "Everything".

REACH (Telegram) 48 - What are your thoughts on the ACRA incident and the move towards changing how NRIC numbers are used?

(SK)

20 Dec 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 7:45 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 8am to 7pm today. ⏰

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Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 8:01 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

In a press conference on 19 Dec, Minister for Digital Development and Information Josephine Teo, Second Minister for Finance Indranee Rajah and ACRA chief executive Chia-Tern Huey Min apologised for the anxiety caused regarding the unmasking of NRIC numbers on ACRA's Bizfile portal.

They also assured Singaporeans that the Government was taking the public’s concerns on the matter seriously, clarified how the lapse had occurred and explained the Government's direction regarding the treatment of NRIC numbers in the future.   

💬 What are your thoughts on the ACRA incident and the move towards changing how NRIC numbers are used?

📌 How the Bizfile Incident Occurred and Moving Forward

ACRA chief executive Chia-Tern said the authority had misunderstood an MDDI circular issued earlier to government agencies to cease any planned use of masked NRIC numbers in new business processes and services.

It had taken this to mean that it should unmask NRIC numbers in its new portal, for example, rendering *****456A as S0123456A.

“This was a mistake on ACRA’s part and I apologise for this. Our oversight has caused anxiety and confusion to the public,” she said.

The search function in question was disabled on Dec 13 night, and a new version will be launched next week with search results that do not show any NRIC numbers.

Users who want to view NRIC numbers and other information of people in ACRA's Bizfile directory will have to pay S$33 (US$24) for each profile.

📌 Disclosure of NRIC

The Government had intended for this move away from the use of masked NRIC numbers to first be a within-government effort, such as in cross-agency functions, said Mrs Teo.

This would improve efficiency and also address a false sense of security regarding the numbers within the Government itself.

The ministry knew that changing mindsets would have to be done over a period of time, and a major effort would be needed to help Singaporeans understand the risks, due to longstanding practices, said Mrs Teo.

Within the government, some steps to do this had already been taken. Agencies were instructed to stop using NRIC numbers as a password or to prove someone is who he claims to be.

The ministry had also made plans for a public education campaign covering three broad areas. These include the risks currently faced with NRIC numbers being used improperly, as well as how Singaporeans can better protect themselves and organisations can change their incorrect practices.

Organisations and individuals that have been careful and responsible in how they collect and use NRIC numbers should continue with their current practices.

Those who are using NRIC numbers – full or partial – as a password or authenticator, should stop as soon as possible.

“We are not making drastic overnight changes. We do, however, need to move decisively to phase out the incorrect uses of the NRIC number, the sooner, the better,” said Mrs Teo.

👉🏼 [ST] Govt apologises for Acra lapse, will accelerate efforts to educate public on proper NRIC use: https://str.sg/kvrR

👉🏼 [ST] Misunderstanding of internal govt circular led to unmasking of NRIC numbers on Bizfile: Acra: https://str.sg/bjRG

👉🏼 [CNA] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nric-unmasking-acra-josephine-teo-apologises-confusion-anxiety-4816066

👉🏼 [CNA] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/acra-bizfile-search-nric-numbers-masking-restore-4816006

----

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 8:10 AM]

[ Poll : 1) The response to the incident is adequate and timely. Please elaborate on your views in the chat. ]

- Agree

- Neutral

- Disagree

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 8:10 AM]

[ Poll : 2) I understand why masked NRICs are slowly being phased out. ]

- Yes

- Unsure 

- No

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 10:01 AM]

Dear Contributors,

We want to HEAR from you!

💬 What are your thoughts on the ACRA incident and the move towards changing how NRIC numbers are used?

We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active! 

Do also share your opinion by participating in our polls! The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

Thank you!

Megan 😊

Jun Ming, [20/12/2024 10:50 AM]

NRIC is tagged along with other information such as where you stay etc. It should not be revealed easily as it cause privacy issues. 

I agree that it should not be use as authenticator but it should not be no restrictions on getting the ic number due to information tagged along and potential misuse. For eg. In army for sensitive information they ask us to shout NRIC rank and name which I feel that it should not be the case.

Jun Ming, [20/12/2024 10:51 AM]

Some people NRIC very easy remember. Like my nric a lot of same numbers

Jun Ming, [20/12/2024 10:54 AM]

On the other hand I also don't really care to use nric as password for some not so important account such as my school portal as it's only my horrible grades and assignments

Steven Ong, [20/12/2024 11:38 AM]

IMO, there should a choice for the individual to decide for himself/herself to disclose personal info to the public, similar to how social media allow users to decide, even when NRIC is declared as 'non-sensitive' by Gov.

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 12:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Moses Kor kwang loong, [20/12/2024 1:23 PM]

Maybe can explain further

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 2:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 2:01 PM]

Dear Contributors,

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your thoughts on the ACRA incident and the move towards changing how NRIC numbers are used?

We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active! 

Do also share your opinion by participating in our polls! The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

Thank you!

Megan 😊

G, [20/12/2024 2:11 PM]

Sounds very amateurish with this "misunderstanding" of a circular 

Looks like this "misunderstanding" has exposed Singaporeans more to the threat of having their personal data being used by scammers.

G, [20/12/2024 2:12 PM]

Why did it take so long before the ministers did this press conference?

G, [20/12/2024 2:15 PM]

Now that this 4G PAP govt has exposed Singaporeans to the risk of personal data being extracted (possibly for scams) what's their solution to eliminate future risks? 

What's their solution for Singaporeans who's personal data have been retrieved?

Do they know which Singaporeans' personal data were extracted?

They need to update Singaporeans on the extent of personal data extractions during the vulnerable window

Joomua Tng, [20/12/2024 2:16 PM]

it is a mistake to say misunderstanding.

just need to say it is a mistake on the part where the agnecy should wait for public education on the issue then implement the policy..........

G, [20/12/2024 2:16 PM]

This feels like govt leaders throwing their staff under the bus when mistakes were made, to appease Singaporeans

G, [20/12/2024 2:18 PM]

It does not feel good to know that actions from this 4G PAP have resulted in our personal data protection being breached by the very govt that put up this protection in the first place

G, [20/12/2024 2:22 PM]

The more this govt tries to explain away their mistake, and try to "educate" Singaporeans on their NRIC, the more it sounds like "rules for thee, but not for me"

Joomua Tng, [20/12/2024 2:24 PM]

The government should do the public education first the explaining the reason and rationale of why NRIC no longer considered as sensitive information.

1.) should discuss with corporations and companies...when NRIC is no longer sensitive information, how or what the corporation and companies should do in order to verify the authenticity of any person. especially through online or telephone..

2.) what other methods to authenticate a person?

the assumption of using NRIC as authentication has be around for decades...which is why without first educating and explaining to the public the reason and rationale...you will get a backlash from the public.

Human is animal of habits and emotions. Not all can override their emotions and habits and consider deepy into the issue.

Jun Ming, [20/12/2024 2:32 PM]

I want to ask is there any form of authentication in acra before the green light is given to proceed the searches of nric

Jun Ming, [20/12/2024 2:34 PM]

Is there any mechanisms in the gov to prevent such mistakes happening

Jun Ming, [20/12/2024 2:39 PM]

Cause I think it is common sense not to publish people's private information through searches. And I understand that this happens on a Saturday so things may have finalised on the Friday

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 3:16 PM]

*Analysing the response of the unmasking of NRIC number*

1. Looking at the reactions of the participants about the revealing of NRIC number saga, I feel that the overwhelming negative responses are fuel by :-

a. Psychological fears - as old habit die hard (being subject to many years of belief that NRIC number are used for identification and authentication (as adopted by some enterprises - be it public and private).

b. Social perspective with the proliferation of social media platform that can post people's privacy information, pictures and videos onto the social media

c. Desire for privacy

d. Proliferation of scams - that can lead unsuspecting victims to fall for scam - as scammers are mastery in social engineering to fool victims.

2. This is despite the fact that many IT professionals know that NRIC numbers are not safe or foolproof - to be used as authentication mechanism - as NRIC numbers are known to some strangers and can be "reverse engineered" to reveal its algorithm and derive the NRIC numbers with some known parameters.

3. It didn't help when trusted enterprises such as polyclinics, hospitals, banks, financial companies etc uses NRIC number to verify a person's identity.

4. Hence, to uproot the people's habit or psychological fear to keep their NRIC number private - will require a lengthy and convincing approaches to alleviate people's belief that revealing their NRIC number will not compromise their well-being and put them at scammer risk through social engineeing (as uniquely identified a particular person can also pull out the personal information such as names, date of birth, address, telephone number, sex, the schools they attended, university they attended, workplace etc).

5. So I guess, alot of work need to be done - because privacy are valued by many people.

6. I have no doubt that NRIC number should not be used as authentication to complete financial transaction and other transactions --- because NRIC number is not safe.

7. But revealing NRIC number will need more effort - to address the psychological fear, social perspective and most important, not allowing NRIC number to pull out a person's other privacy information such as name, address, telephone number etc - that can be misused by hostile actors to harass the victims.

For example, we have been receiving scammers call, scammers message, even cold call from salesman eg. insurance agents, property agents, and other salesman --- even wonder how they get our telephone number and other private information.

G, [20/12/2024 3:18 PM]

It's one thing for individuals to safe guard their identity and personal information. 

It's another for govt entities to treat individuals' personal information so casually and flippantly

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:20 PM]

I was just reading this article - https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/misunderstanding-of-internal-govt-circular-led-to-unmasking-of-nric-numbers-on-bizfile-acra

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:20 PM]

Acra chief executive Chia-Tern Huey Min said staff from her agency had “interpreted the requirements to cease the use of masked NRIC numbers as needing to unmask the numbers in our new Bizfile portal”.

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:21 PM]

This whole NRIC unmasking issue really highlights how a single misstep in communication can spiral into public distrust.

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:21 PM]

The government’s original intent to shift away from using NRIC numbers for authentication was a good move, after all, data privacy and security are big concerns these days.

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:22 PM]

But ACRA’s misunderstanding of that directive, resulting in full NRIC numbers being publicly accessible, feels like a serious oversight that could have been avoided with clearer instructions and better internal processes.

G, [20/12/2024 3:22 PM]

People put in effort to protect themselves and their personal information, especially after they heeded PDPA/PDPC guidelines. 

After this episode, 4G PAP is effectively telling us:

Protect for what, what you have is not worth protecting. In fact, I have put up your personal information for just $33! That whole NRIC episode was just an early  Christmas giveaway. After this, need to pay $33 again

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:23 PM]

For me, this reflects a broader issue: when it comes to handling sensitive data, trust is everything. We expect our systems and agencies to safeguard such information, and any lapse—intentional or not—damages that trust.

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:24 PM]

The apology and immediate action by ACRA to fix the error are necessary, but it also raises questions about how much effort goes into ensuring such directives are well understood before they’re implemented.

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:25 PM]

This is a lesson in the importance of clarity. Moving forward, I hope they’ll prioritize proper coordination to avoid similar incidents.

Khairil Baharudin, [20/12/2024 3:25 PM]

It’s not just about fixing the mistake - it’s about rebuilding confidence in how our personal data is managed from now on.

G, [20/12/2024 3:26 PM]

I think it is clear as day that NRIC is to be used as an identifier rather than authenticator. 

It is right, you ask me to identify myself, I say I am xxx, you ask for me last 4 digits of my NRIC to match my name to those last 4 digits, I am identified as the person I claim myself to be.

To authenticate, you ask me to key in my 7 digit pin or ask me my mother's name, dog's name etc. Data that I have input in your system to help you authenticate my identity.

Correct, its clear as day.

What does the above have anything to do with the government letting people have access to my full and NRIC number, just because the NRIC is not the authenticator but only the identifier?  

Nothing.

I don't even tell you my name if I don't need to; because it is my right and prerogative to decide whom I want to share my name with, and its my name, I decide right?

G, [20/12/2024 3:34 PM]

PDPC's current guidelines on NRIC:

"The Singapore National Registration Identification Card (“NRIC”) number is a unique identifier assigned by the Singapore Government to Singapore citizens and permanent residents of registrable age under the National Registration Act. It is often used for transactions with the Government as well as in commercial transactions. The NRIC number of an individual is considered personal data as the individual can be identified from the unique sequence of numbers and letters. "

"As the NRIC number is a permanent and irreplaceable identifier which can potentially be used to unlock large amounts of information relating to the individual, the collection, use and disclosure of an individual’s NRIC number is of special concern. Indiscriminate or negligent handling of NRIC numbers increases the risk of unintended disclosure with the result that NRIC numbers may be obtained and used for illegal activities such as identity theft and fraud. The retention of an individual’s physical NRIC is also of concern. The physical NRIC not only contains the individual’s NRIC number, but also other personal data, such as the individual’s full name, photograph, thumbprint and residential address."

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 3:49 PM]

My close friend comments:-

The scariest thing about revealing nric is that half of my Singpass authentication is lost.

More and more establishments are using Singpass for authentication. Once Singpass password is breached, we are all very vulnerable.

But then again, when we avoid using nric number for personal identification, establishments switch to handphone numbers for identification.  Think about it, it is equally scary. 

Another eg. Gov stopoed establishments from sending links on sms. A move to protect its people from inadvertently falling prey to malicious links. Then? I receive them on whatsapp to click on links for ....

道高一尺，魔高一丈。

We have to run faster than the devil. 

Lets help to give ideas on what to use for personal identification. We have to help protect ourselves..

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 3:51 PM]

I have checked:-

Singpass login come in 2 forms:-

1. Singpass QR code - digital token.

2. Singpass login that uses NRIC number and retrieval of password using NRIC number if forget password.

G, [20/12/2024 3:51 PM]

Does this risk get eliminated by whatever education campaign this 4G PAP wants to do to educate Singaporeans on their NRICs, and the definitions of "identification / verification / authorisation"?

What is being done about the govt's own "indiscriminate or negligent" handling of NRIC numbers?

G, [20/12/2024 3:55 PM]

Link to the current guidelines 👇

https://www.pdpc.gov.sg/-/media/Files/PDPC/PDF-Files/Advisory-Guidelines/Advisory-Guidelines-for-NRIC-Numbers---310818.pdf

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 4:00 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

G, [20/12/2024 4:07 PM]

Why is it "psychological fear"?

How does revealing NRIC NOT compromise people's well being and put them at scammer risk through social engineering?

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 4:12 PM]

Hence the 1st thing that the government need to phase out is Singpass password login using NRIC number.

As well as phasing out using NRIC number to reset or retrieve Singpass password.

G, [20/12/2024 4:28 PM]

Privacy and personal security

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 4:28 PM]

As long as more public enterprises and private enterprises root out using NRIC number for identifier and authenticator, then the timing is right to unmask the NRIC number.

Because NRIC number no longer preoccupied and implant into people's memory that NRIC number is the defacto important information to safeguard.

Psychologically, it will fade from people's cognitive process of associating NRIC number to our identifier and authenticator.

Only then, habitual attachment to the need to safeguard nric number can be slowly uprooted - and people can slowly accept NRIC number as our individual name.

It is a lengthy process because mental, cognitive habit - is a strong psychological attachment that take deliberate process to uproot.

G, [20/12/2024 4:30 PM]

AND delink NRIC from everything we know it today because:

"As the NRIC number is a permanent and irreplaceable identifier which can potentially be used to unlock large amounts of information relating to the individual, the collection, use and disclosure of an individual’s NRIC number is of special concern. Indiscriminate or negligent handling of NRIC numbers increases the risk of unintended disclosure with the result that NRIC numbers may be obtained and used for illegal activities such as identity theft and fraud. "

G, [20/12/2024 4:32 PM]

NRIC is linked to our:

1. CPF

2. TAX

3. Property

4. Bank

5. Paynow

6. Singpass

7. SAF obligations (for men)

etc

etc

etc

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 4:37 PM]

1. Hence biometric data become the best identifier and authenticator of a person's identity and authentication.

2. But looking at the horizon of the rapid development of quantum computing with some States able to build quantum computers to compute millions of quantum bits (notably US and China) - the chances of quantum computing cracking all current cryptography and cybersecurity are getting higher.

3. Hence using biometric data is able to make NRIC number redundant but consideration to the cybersecurity in protecting the integrity of biometric data become especially critical.

4. Hence even though I understand employing biometric can immediately make NRIC number saga redundant - but my hesitation is what quantum computing and AI deepfake can do to biometric authentication.

5. Certainly need the massive government resources as well as worldwide IT expertise to look deep into biometric adoption, the risk pose by AI deepfake and deep learning as well as the worrisome computing power of quantum computing that can crack all current cybersecurity measures.

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 4:46 PM]

1. Of course deploying biometric liveliness, contextual information, geolocation data, personal health biodata (pulses, heart rate, eye movement etc) as discuss with your Ministry digital staff - can overcome AI deepfake, quantum computing overwhelming computing power.

2. But need the government R&D AI and IT and quantum physics expertise to do deep study and development to ensure they are foolproof.

3. Also need developed countries expertise like US, China, EU and other smart nations collaboration to ensure future advanced biometric technologies can overcome cyberscammer and cyber hackers.

4. Understand the 4G government is running deep into the advanced technologies.

5. But just need to wait for the right time to unleash the information to pacify the public.

6. If successfully developed, then noticed that NRIC number as identifier and authenticator is just a kindergarten stuff.

7. Psychologically, NRIC number will no longer hold a place in people's memory if biometric technologies deployment take hold.

8. I know our government can do it - but need a little stretch - because notice that all government R&D agencies, Universities and technology agencies are firing at all cylinders.

Just awaiting for the outcomes not in the far future.

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 4:59 PM]

Also noticed the ICA immigration checkpoint biometric scan - is a very positive experience.

QR code scan to ascertain a person identity - less than 1 minute identification - clear 1st egate.

Then facial and iris biometric scan for authentication - less than 1 minute - clear 2nd egate.

No passport, no NRIC number.

Only handphone with myica mobile apps and just our beautiful face and eyes - clear the checkpoint in a breeze.

So advance biometric technologies is already there.

Only how to roll out to all public and commercial online transactions (keeping in mind biometric solutions need to move from a close private network into the open internet network - whereby all crocodile cyber scammers and hackers are out there).

And tackling the risk from AI deepfake, deep learning and quantum computing - that can crack the binary encryption protecting the biometric data with quantum bits computing.

This is my only fear.

But biometric technologies - everything is ready to go - 只欠东风。

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 5:59 PM]

My close friend comments:-

Our nric has been exposed for a long time. Remember those days before PDPA? We gave away our NRIC without second thoughts. 

An immediate consideration is to consider issuing an asynchronous code to pair with our NRIC.

Eg masking out NRIC first 4 digits actually doesn't help if we have been giving away for full NRIC # for the past decades ☺️. Instead now we pair our NRIC with another code.  And we guard this code tightly. 

An analogy would be - our credit card number has a pairing CVC and merchants also request for card expiry to validate validity of the card. 

This is not absolutely strong but we can't just throw the baby out with the bath water.

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 6:00 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 6:11 PM]

My comments:-

I think this is a good interim measure.

LCL (Danny 心), [20/12/2024 6:22 PM]

"Powell says Fed cannot hold bitcoin, not seeking to change that".

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/powell-says-fed-cannot-hold-bitcoin-not-seeking-change-4815206#:~:text=Powell%20says%20Fed%20cannot%20hold%20bitcoin%2C%20not%20seeking%20to%20change%20that

The Federal Reserve (Fed) has not officially recognized Bitcoin as a strategic financial asset for several reasons:

1. *Lack of intrinsic value*: The Fed views Bitcoin as a speculative asset, lacking intrinsic value and a stable store of value.

2. *Volatility*: Bitcoin's price is highly volatile, making it unsuitable as a reliable store of value or medium of exchange.

3. *Limited adoption*: While Bitcoin has gained popularity, its adoption as a widely accepted form of payment is still limited.

4. *Regulatory concerns*: The Fed has expressed concerns about Bitcoin's regulatory environment, including issues related to anti-money laundering (AML) and know-your-customer (KYC).

5. *Security risks*: The Fed has highlighted the potential security risks associated with Bitcoin, including the risk of hacking and cyber attacks.

6. *Lack of central authority*: The decentralized nature of Bitcoin, without a central authority, raises concerns about its stability and reliability.

7. *Not a fiat currency*: Bitcoin is not a fiat currency, meaning it's not issued or backed by a central bank or government.

These concerns have led the Fed to maintain a cautious stance toward Bitcoin, focusing instead on exploring the potential benefits of central bank-issued digital currencies (CBDCs).

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 6:44 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [20/12/2024 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

====

REACH (Telegram) 47 -  What are your thoughts about the proposed unmasking of NRIC numbers? What more can be done to ensure that NRIC numbers are correctly used as an identifier instead of being used for authentication? How can we better protect ourselves through the proper use of authentication and passwords?

(SK)

16 Dec 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [16/12/2024 11:45 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

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REACH Singapore, [16/12/2024 12:00 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

On 14 Dec, the Personal Data Protection Commision (PDPC) announced that it would be updating its guidelines based on the Ministry of Digital Development and Information's (MDDI) statement that there should not be any sensitivity in having one’s full NRIC number made public, and that the Government would move away from the practice of masking NRIC numbers. PDPC added that they would not be making any further changes until completing consultations with industry and members of the public.

💬 What are your thoughts about the proposed unmasking of NRIC numbers? What more can be done to ensure that NRIC numbers are correctly used as an identifier instead of being used for authentication? How can we better protect ourselves through the proper use of authentication and passwords?

This issue arose on 9 Dec, when the Accounting and Corporate Regulatory Authority (ACRA) launched its new Bizfile web portal, which allowed people to view the full NRIC numbers of others, using a search function for free, without having to log in. However, after members of the public raised privacy concerns, the function was temporarily disabled on 13 Dec.

MDDI said: "The Government’s intent was to change the existing practice of masking the NRIC number only after explaining the issue and preparing the ground. We acknowledge that co-ordination could have been better so that ACRA’s move would not have run ahead of the government’s intent. We apologise for this mistake and for causing anxiety to the public."

In response to queries, MDDI released a statement, stating that NRIC numbers are meant to be used to identify individuals. As a unique identifier, the NRIC is assumed to be known and there should not be any sensitivity in having one's full NRIC number made public. It added that it has been a practice for some time to use masked NRIC numbers. One could make a good guess at someone’s full NRIC number from the masked number using basic algorithms, “especially if one also knows the year of birth of the person”. As such, the ministry said, “there is no need to mask the NRIC number, nor is there much value in doing so”. This is why public agencies are phasing out the use of masked NRIC numbers, so as to avoid giving a “false sense of security”, said MDDI.

A problem arises when the NRIC number is used incorrectly. For example, when organisations rely on it as a form of authentication to access privileged information of perform privileged transactions. MDDI recognises that some people have long treated the NRIC number as private and confidential, and will need time to make adjustments. In 2025, MDDI and the PDPC will be carrying out public education about the purpose of the NRIC number and “how it should be used freely as a personal identifier”. They will also aim to educate people on how they can protect themselves through the proper use of authentication and passwords.

👉🏻 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/pdpc-nric-numbers-personal-data-protection-4807096

👉🏻  https://str.sg/vHTW

👉🏻 https://www.pdpc.gov.sg/news-and-events/press-room/2024/12/pdpcs-reply-to-media-queries-on-the-use-of-nric-numbers

👉🏻 https://www.mddi.gov.sg/mddi-s-reply-to-media-queries-on-disclosure-of-nric-number-on-bizfile-system/

----

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:17 PM]

Gov also use nric to authentication. For example giving freebies such as mask.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:19 PM]

Collecting of documents gov also use nric to collect

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 12:20 PM]

1. I think there are 3 things that can uniquely identified a person.

a. IC number 

b. Handphone number 

c. Name (sometimes can be duplicate - as some people may adopt the same name).

2. If any of the above is revealed, a person can be uniquely identified.

3. Using any of the above as online credentials to login to perform authentication sign-in is definitely unsafe - as user ID, password and 2nd factor authentication rightfully should not be revealed to the public.

Daniel, [16/12/2024 12:22 PM]

I think the reasoning makes sense. I feel however, that this should have been communicated ahead of rolling it out. In the past years, there has been a lot of talk about companies not collecting IC numbers, so I think a lot of people were confused last week.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:23 PM]

Gov is making easy for crime to thrive?

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 12:23 PM]

4. Hence depending on the scenario, if a person want to remain anonymous, all the above a. b. and c. - should not be revealed.

5. But if a name need to be revealed, then revealing IC number is as good as revealing the name.

6. But as for handphone number, I prefer not to be revealed because I won't want scammers to call me.

Kai Bin, [16/12/2024 12:28 PM]

I would suggest that additional privacy measures could be implemented if the authorities want to unmask the NRIC numbers.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:28 PM]

Imagine a Scam call interpersonal authorities stating your ic and the authorities ic.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:31 PM]

This is the Singapore police force. I am io xxx. May I speak to xyz.  Is xyz ic this number....

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 12:32 PM]

1. When a bank call online to check credentials, bank do ask a few questions to verify the person identity eg:-

a. Name

b. IC number 

c. Date of birth 

d. How many credit card you have with the bank

Etc 

For example.

2. The more information is revealed to the public, the more the scammers can scam the victims.

zoee, [16/12/2024 12:37 PM]

Many things can be done/accessed when you have both a person's IC and date of birth. Usually many people will already know your date of birth, so IC needs to be kept private to prevent unauthorized access.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 12:43 PM]

1. Also I noticed when go Polyclinics or government hospitals - when collecting medication, the pharmacist will always ask 3 things to check the patient credentials:-

a. What is your name?

b. What is your IC number?

c. Any drug allergy?

2. Then pharmacist will dispense the medication.

3. So indeed IC number is used as identifier for the patients before dispensing medicine.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:45 PM]

It's feel like gov trying to cover up the mistakes or glitches that acra made

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 12:48 PM]

No need to 2nd guess and pin it as conspiracy theory.

Just voice our opinions and let the government consider the pro and con of any changes to the policies.

Don't erode the public trust of the government.

Sometimes all humans make mistakes.

We need to be forgiving.

Steven Ong, [16/12/2024 12:48 PM]

Will there be an option for individual to decide what info to be presented to the public? We should be able to exercise our own judgement on the amount of info to be available to the public.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:49 PM]

Cause nric is link to many things. If a police got your nric he knows where you stay and everything.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:50 PM]

It cannot be just a number...

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 12:50 PM]

On hindsight, we may not have a complete picture of everything or future plans - in which we may only see one side of the coin.

Thus voicing our immediate concerns and let the government weigh the pros and cons - and when all concerns are considered, then the final policy will be more water tight.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:50 PM]

Same to other organisation

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 12:51 PM]

Agree with the statement.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 12:53 PM]

We masked nric for reasons though. Last time we didn't mask nric.

speedperry 耘瑞, [16/12/2024 1:11 PM]

Feels like the netizens think this is a U-turn or should be explained and communicated as one. That’s all

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:12 PM]

The thing is that nric is just a unique identifier. It does not have to be private... somewhat. But somehow so much service use this thing as a password

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:13 PM]

Why? Maybe gov need to regulate nric usage by orgs. It can be something to identify. But it cannot be used to authorise

bao, [16/12/2024 1:13 PM]

I think masking the nric was a reactive measure implemented because of how everyone wrongly use IC as a identifier to privileged information. so revealing the IC clears this up.  now I'm just worried how the re education of the people will turn out cus the perception of safety matters just as if not more than objective safety

bao, [16/12/2024 1:14 PM]

we are already panicking, imagine when it rolls out completely

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:16 PM]

Maybe saying identifier is also inaccurate. Nric is the indentity of the person or account but cannot be used as the identifier of the person who makes a call on the phone

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:16 PM]

We will know after some intl syndicate scrapes the database for all the info and we get mass scams

bao, [16/12/2024 1:20 PM]

I'm also finding it hard to understand the necessity behind this change. what benefits does having everyone's IC out in a publicly searchable database bring?

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 1:21 PM]

1. Recently, I have a good experience crossing our immigration checkpoint.

2. I use egate - only need to scan my passport - that capture my credentials through the microchip and then open the 1st gate.

3. 2nd factor authentication is when the biometric scanner scan my facial and iris biometric - and then open the 2nd gate.

4. The authentication is a breeze.

5. During my return trip, my son use myica mobile apps QR code to clear the 1st gate, no need to use passport - faster than egate.

6. Then do biometric facial and iris biometric scan. Breeze through the 2nd gate.

7. User ID, password, 2nd factor authentication sign-in - not needed.

IC number also not important.

8. In future if banking and all online transaction if use such authentication, then revealing IC number no longer an issue - because ic number will not be used for identity check.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:23 PM]

I usually don't use nric as passwords because my nric is too easy to remember. But... A lot people use nric as passwords for different things

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:23 PM]

So if revealed it's easily get hacked

bao, [16/12/2024 1:24 PM]

yes I understand that the IC number should not be used to verify identity and will surely slowly phase out in the future. however

1. why is it necessary to push out this policy change now before most services made the transition, as there are still many that still make phone calls and uses your NRIC to identify you? and before the public is educated 

2. is there a guideline on what the alternative will be for organizations?

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:24 PM]

I dont think prople use nric as pw but some places treat it as such. Same for phone number. Probably can redeem free meal at some places if you know a person phone number and dining habit

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:26 PM]

My parents use it as passwords. Got 2 letters and numbers that is so convenient to meet the requirements of one capital letter and one small letter

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:26 PM]

Lol didnt know it was that common

bao, [16/12/2024 1:28 PM]

even in the future when we all switched to other forms of verification , what good to society does revealing everyone's NRIC bring?

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:28 PM]

Then they just throw some of their accounts to me to manage. As they always tell me I am digitally stupid.

bao, [16/12/2024 1:29 PM]

I find the move absurdly unnecessary

bao, [16/12/2024 1:29 PM]

if not broken why fix

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 1:30 PM]

1. But if biometric scan if to use for online authentication, biometric data need to be kept centrally only in one place (concept similar to Singpass).

2. Because decentralization of biometric data is very risky if commercial firms are unable to secure customers biometric data.

3. Once stolen, the person biometric credentials will be lost forever unless the person change his face, his eyes, his fingerprints, his DNA or rebirth.

Else scammers will always possess his biometric data to steal away all the life savings - because biometric data cannot be changed once stolen.

4. Currently biometric data is securely stored in ICA central database secured by a private network.

5. If biometric data is to be used for banking or other commercial online transactions in similar Singpass concept - then government need to open and connect the biometric database to the Internet (a public open network that come with cybersecurity risk).

Securing the biometric database and internet connection will become increasingly important and critical.

Hanny, [16/12/2024 1:31 PM]

Gov needs to make it clear that ic number is only an identifier. Authentication is via another mechanism.

People also need to be clear of the difference between the two.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:31 PM]

I think the singpass is using your phones biometric data

G, [16/12/2024 1:32 PM]

Govt made mistake. Effectively tell us sorry but not sorry. 

Then want to educate us on NRIC next year? Classic holier-than-thou nonsense

Somemore say want to protect people from scams, then now make it so easy to let others know NRIC details. This govt is a facilitator of scams!

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:33 PM]

Maybe taking of photos need to link up biometric data with ica

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 1:33 PM]

Singpass capture our biometric facial and iris with a camera.

I think Singpass then check with the backend biometric database not our phone biometric data - because I don't login my phone using my biometric.

G, [16/12/2024 1:33 PM]

No. Wasn't Tan Kin Lian's singpass locked out because some people mischievously made multiple unsuccessful log in attempts?

They used his NRIC to log in

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:34 PM]

But I thought just finger print to log in from phone

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:35 PM]

Singpass app can use phone biometric to log in. It does not have your biometric

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:35 PM]

Im sure the ica biometric is something else

bao, [16/12/2024 1:35 PM]

but singpass also verifies face data esp during registration and I think that's stored serverside

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 1:35 PM]

Yes.

I think this is the probable back end biometric check.

Because only ICA capture the population biometric data for making IC and passport.

No other government agencies capture the population biometric.

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:36 PM]

Thats for first time i think. After you can log in normally. Probably there so some scammer wont log you in new phone

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:36 PM]

For new phones too

bao, [16/12/2024 1:36 PM]

yea so it shows singpass do store your data

bao, [16/12/2024 1:36 PM]

however for efficiency I believe, subsequently it just trusts your phone

G, [16/12/2024 1:37 PM]

Some mistakes cannot be forgiven. Especially if they come from the govt

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 1:37 PM]

Don't know.

But Singpass does backend checking if the login user is that person.

The first time I put on mask to hide my face, Singpass registration fail - because it say that I don't match that user identifity.

Hanny, [16/12/2024 1:38 PM]

Singpass is an excellent Authenticator.

bao, [16/12/2024 1:38 PM]

they are subject to scrutiny, more than any average joe

bao, [16/12/2024 1:38 PM]

that's their job

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:38 PM]

Must explicitly ask for apology or they say noone ask

G, [16/12/2024 1:38 PM]

And can be misused by mischievous people who want to lock people out of their singpasses

G, [16/12/2024 1:39 PM]

Just vote Josephine out. No need apologise

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:40 PM]

I not in their GRC cannot vote for her haha

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:41 PM]

Can only imagine if the amount of mps follow the ratio of the total vote

G, [16/12/2024 1:42 PM]

@reachsg2 Is this part of the govt's damage control measures?

To try and gauge people's sentiments, and tick a checkbox and say already did "public consultation"? 

So that next year can boast about already did public consultation then follow up by shoving down your "education campaign" to educate Singaporeans on NRIC?

Hanny, [16/12/2024 1:42 PM]

Singpass model of authentication is the most secure n practical currently. It is used by many platforms such as AWS.

G, [16/12/2024 1:44 PM]

Thankful that people like Bertha publicly exposed this. 

Now Singaporeans know that our personal data have been sold by our own govt for measly $33

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:44 PM]

Good luck educating older gen on nric

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:44 PM]

But seriously as what people have say 脱裤子放屁。taking out his pants to fart, a bit additional

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:45 PM]

To reveal nric. Keeping it status quo will be better. Save resources on mrt breakdowns

bao, [16/12/2024 1:47 PM]

hear hear!

bao, [16/12/2024 1:48 PM]

吃太饱

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:48 PM]

I think opposition will bark on this in parliament and Louis Ng might also ask questions

Hanny, [16/12/2024 1:48 PM]

Given the current IT security threat, ic number can no longer be used for authentication.

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 1:49 PM]

But not actually reviewing to everyone who can search for it

Hanny, [16/12/2024 1:49 PM]

We need to move on to better model. The current model depends too much on trust.

And trust is very much lacking nowadays.

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:51 PM]

I hope this will spell the death of phone banking and whatever needs phone to authorise

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:51 PM]

Too much headache they force you to navigate through menus and then ask for nric

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:52 PM]

Why do this insecure mechanism when the secure way cannot make the changes i need?

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 1:52 PM]

The Singapore NRIC number algorithm involves a combination of birth year, month, day, and random numbers, along with a checksum calculation.

Here's a simplified breakdown of the algorithm:

1. *Birth Year Code*: First two digits

    - 1-9 for 1900-1999 (e.g., "S" for 1990s, "T" for 1990s, etc.)

    - "F", "G", "H", "J" for 2000-2099 (e.g., "F" for 2000-2009, "G" for 2010-2019, etc.)

2. *Birth Month and Day Code*: Next two digits

    - Coded values representing birth month and day (not a straightforward calculation)

3. *Random Number*: Next four digits

    - Randomly generated

4. *Checksum*: Last digit

    - Calculated using a weighted sum of the previous digits

Here's an example:

Suppose we have a person born in 1995, with a birth month and day code of "43", and a random number of "2198".

The NRIC number would be:

S95432198

The checksum is calculated as:

Checksum = (3 × S) + (2 × 9) + (7 × 5) + (6 × 4) + (5 × 3) + (4 × 2) + (3 × 1) + (2 × 9) + (1 × 8)

Checksum = 9 (in this example)

The final NRIC number would be:

S95432198 9

Please note that this is a simplified explanation, and the actual algorithm used by the ICA might involve additional steps or variations.

Source :- Meta AI

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 1:53 PM]

I have just generated an IC number using Meta AI.

Hanny, [16/12/2024 1:55 PM]

IC number was created at the time when IT security is not an issue. It’s just like voice network was created when security is not a concern.

Adam, [16/12/2024 1:56 PM]

Oh god imagine if they make a singpass 2.0 and get the lowest bidder to implement like erp2

Hanny, [16/12/2024 1:57 PM]

I believe Singpass is developed by in-house developers.

Hanny, [16/12/2024 1:58 PM]

You don’t want the case like Boeing where lousy codes were the result of outsourcing.

Moses Kor kwang loong, [16/12/2024 2:00 PM]

Is best to have 1 hard copy and 1 soft copy

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 2:01 PM]

1. Singpass through digital token is safe provided:-

a. Your handphone with digital token is not stolen by scammers.

b. No malware that can take control of your handphone is downloaded.

2. Because no data is transmitted through the comms line - backend computation are done. Scammers cannot do man-in-the-middle attack.

3. Just like a physical token in your possession.

Unless your physical token is stolen by scammers.

Moses Kor kwang loong, [16/12/2024 2:02 PM]

Another thing is that I would like to add-on but before that,I would like to say a word of sorry if I were to off-record a little and if I'm rude and offensive first

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 2:04 PM]

Btw, Singpass use to outsource to 3rd party.

1st vendor is crimson logic.

2nd vendor is a MNC (cannot remember the name)

3rd vendor (authentication part) NAF (national authentication framework) is awarded to ST Electronic.

Singpass version 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 managed by iDA.

Now Govtech take over if I am not wrong.

Moses Kor kwang loong, [16/12/2024 2:12 PM]

Recently in-parliament implemented better protection regarding security officers,I would like to add-on bestowing more authority and more power towards security officers

Juz like environment officers got warrant cards,example if security officers worked as bodyguards,bouncers etc and isn't it better right for a certain period of time or maybe on the spot get a warrant card better isn't it as good as one stone kill 2 birds??,this is juz my personal opinions and will be better get more protection and authority isn't it??

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 2:15 PM]

So now the Singpass is not Singpass 2.0 - could be version 4.0?

Don't know, lose touch already.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 2:19 PM]

Btw, Singpass 3.0 is awarded to the lowest bidder - that design the 99.99% network uptime and reliability.

And 99.999% uptime for authentication.

No failure throughout the lifespan of Singpass 3.0.

Able to withstand a Data Centre failure - with no single point of failure.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 2:27 PM]

Also Singpass 3.0 is securely protected - no report of hacker breakthrough since its inception.

The defence-in-depth superbly hold up - despite international hackers try to breach it everyday.

Every hacking is monitored online, realtime.

Hence Singpass is a reliable source of authentication for many online transaction.

Singpass is also size up to handle the very high volume of transactions per day in authentication - because the backend capacity to handle the volumes are huge.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 2:28 PM]

Use not only by the government agencies, but also public agencies, commercial banks and financial institutions, and even private enterprises.

Ginie/Komal ZENDORA J, [16/12/2024 2:37 PM]

Agree

Ginie/Komal ZENDORA J, [16/12/2024 2:39 PM]

Infact now face id also very dangerous.  With our pics everywhere.  Even more easy gor scammers.

Ginie/Komal ZENDORA J, [16/12/2024 2:40 PM]

Sg small country.  We should have more security in place. Giving out our details so easily.  No wonder nowadays get so many scam calls

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 2:41 PM]

1. Having say so, there are many future plan to secure the identity and online transaction of Singaporeans and residents.

2. Singaporeans will not have the complete picture of what our government has planned for us in the future.

3. With limited knowledge on the hindsight, I can only express my immediate concern for the government consideration.

4. While planning for the future, the government will have taken our feedback into the drawing board when drafting the future plans and addressing our concerns.

5. Who knows, the future plans and technology would have make our immediate concerns about IC number non consequential.

6. My inklings is that a secure foolproof biometric authentication will make this possible.

7. But I am not preaching this solution - as the government needs to fully test and ensure it is failsafe - with the advent of quantum computing that can crack all current cybersecurity.

REACH Singapore, [16/12/2024 2:46 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Ginie/Komal ZENDORA J, [16/12/2024 2:48 PM]

Even when downloading apps. For security reason, to allow view our contacts, pics and videos should not be allowed at all.

Ginie/Komal ZENDORA J, [16/12/2024 2:49 PM]

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/askst-are-e-sims-safe

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 3:00 PM]

Concerning ERP, let see how foreigners rate us huh ..

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 3:00 PM]

https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2024/12/1148499/bus-drivers-praise-singapores-erp-system

"Malaysia Bus drivers praise Singapore's ERP system".

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 3:02 PM]

The United States has indeed taken notice of Singapore's innovative Electronic Road Pricing (ERP) system. Singapore's ERP system has been studied by transport planners and managers from around the world, including those from the US ¹.

In fact, Singapore's ERP system has inspired other cities to adopt similar congestion pricing schemes. For instance, London's Congestion Charge Zone was introduced in 2003 after London officials studied Singapore's ERP system ¹. Similarly, Stockholm's congestion tax was implemented in 2007, and other cities like Dubai, Milan, and Jakarta have also adopted similar systems ¹.

The US has also explored the idea of congestion pricing, with cities like New York and San Francisco considering implementing similar systems ¹. While there hasn't been an official statement from the US government praising Singapore's ERP system, the fact that US cities are exploring similar solutions is a testament to the system's effectiveness.

Singapore's ERP system has been successful in managing traffic congestion, with studies showing that it has reduced traffic volume and increased average road speeds ¹. The system's use of Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technology and gantries to automatically collect fees from vehicles has also been praised for its efficiency ².

Source:- Meta AI

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 3:05 PM]

Hence credit must be given when due.

As common man in the street, we have limited knowledge of what our government has done and plan for us.

And how the world rate us.

Discrediting our government good work and eroding the public trust on our government - is as good as shooting ourselves on the feet.

Finally, the real people who suffer are ourselves and our children.

𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [16/12/2024 3:13 PM]

Yep, but not all the Gov does is perfect, that is why check and balances must be implemented, there are no shortages of academics, scientists and social scientists in SG, if the common people have limited knowledge on public policy making, then the Gov should comprehensively consult academics, who can have the responsibility to research and ensure that laws and policies are extensively vetted through before implementation, and to communicate the laws and policies to the common people before implementation.

𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [16/12/2024 3:17 PM]

But of course this means that academics should have a certain degree of intellectual independence from Gov Influence as well.

Moses Kor kwang loong, [16/12/2024 3:39 PM]

Talking about identification paper,two should be more than enuff

REACH Singapore, [16/12/2024 4:03 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Jun Ming, [16/12/2024 4:11 PM]

But will there be faking identification.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 4:18 PM]

1. Agree that the government should work with academic, R&D, universities and IHL.

2. In fact, I think government is consulting widely, including REACH that not only make up of common man in the street but include people with the relevant background.

3. Also professional institutes, business and expertise in various fields.

4. As well as government R&D agencies and expertise in the respective fields.

集思广议。

5. Tapping the minds of everyone to come out with the best solutions.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 4:20 PM]

And I believe, the outreach to the various groups are independent of the government, intellectually or politically.

Eg. REACH are tapping the feedback of individuals - including critics.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 4:36 PM]

Faking identification is what scammers try to do - using AI deep learning, deepfake.

Hence cybersecurity must be failsafe.

With quantum computing, the stake is even higher.

As it uses qubits (versus binary in traditional computing).

Hence protecting and securing a person identity requires very good cybersecurity.

And only the government resources with worldwide collaboration can ensure that.

And it is always an ongoing process.

IC number - crack already.

Generative AI - eg. Meta AI crack it in less than 1 minute.

Garion Chan, [16/12/2024 6:00 PM]

Sadly the current ATO that I am learning uses Learners' last 4digit of IC and 1st four of handphone..... Citing conveniency and my course is on Cybersecurity 😂

REACH Singapore, [16/12/2024 6:00 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Garion Chan, [16/12/2024 6:15 PM]

Sorry all. Can I check on something which I was told long time ago at home and in School. I cannot loose my IC. As there are penalties to it.., like paying fine? Isn't fine a form of petty crime? Does this valid and have stand? If have,  then revealing IC without permission means a 'crime' am I wrong on this?

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 6:23 PM]

If I am not wrong, if you lose your IC, you need to replace your IC.

And need to pay the replacement cost.

It is not a fine.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 6:26 PM]

It is also not a petty crime if you lose your IC. 

But you need to file a police report so that if anyone use your IC illegally to masquerade you for unlawful purposes, than that person will be charged for forging identity of another person.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 6:28 PM]

In acra case, if I am not wrong, the business owner want to register his company.

Other business partner or customer who need to check the validity of his business will search his business credentials and is it register under his name on acra - to ensure it is a legitimate, legal business register in Singapore.

Hence his name, his company name and his IC that uniquely identified the registered business need to be revealed if people do an acra search.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 6:31 PM]

So revealing the IC or name is not a crime.

Unless the business owner don't want to register his business in Singapore or do business with partner and customers.

Else how do customers know who are the business owners?

Khairil Baharudin, [16/12/2024 6:39 PM]

I think we’ve always seen the NRIC as a private document, with the details on it being confidential. But with the recent changes, the Government seems to be moving away from that idea—basically acknowledging that in today’s digital age, a simple 7-digit identifier can’t realistically stay confidential anymore. The rise in global cybersecurity threats just makes that even clearer.

To me, it feels like this is more about a legislative shift—where the aim is to make the NRIC number less of a “confidential” thing over time. Honestly, it’ll probably take a generation for people to get used to this change.

Khairil Baharudin, [16/12/2024 6:41 PM]

The change management from the Government has to be spot on—everything from clear communication to public education needs to be well-executed. Otherwise, it’s going to create a lot of confusion and pushback.

Khairil Baharudin, [16/12/2024 6:43 PM]

Look at it this way—even without the NRIC numbee being involved, people are still falling victim to scams. It shows that the problem isn’t just about the confidentiality of the NRIC number, but a bigger issue around cybersecurity awareness and how personal information is being used or misused.

Khairil Baharudin, [16/12/2024 6:43 PM]

*number

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 6:43 PM]

Spot on.

REACH Singapore, [16/12/2024 6:49 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

Khairil Baharudin, [16/12/2024 6:49 PM]

I like how apps like Singpass have moved to facial recognition and platforms like ICA are using unique QR codes. These are solid enhancements to tackle cybersecurity threats. When you think about it in the context of the NRIC number, it makes sense why the Government is rethinking its confidentiality. With advancements in technology, relying on a static 7-digit number for security just isn’t enough anymore. That said, even with these improvements, no system is entirely foolproof, and there will always be loopholes to address, unfortunately.

LCL (Danny 心), [16/12/2024 6:51 PM]

Correct.

REACH Singapore, [16/12/2024 7:01 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

====

REACH (Telegram) 46 - What are your views on the guidelines? Do you feel that they will be effective in promoting healthier relationships between parents and their children?

(SK)

06 Dec 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 9:56 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

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REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 10:00 AM]

📢Topic📢

The Ministry of Social and Family Development (MSF) and KidStart came up with a new set of guidelines spelling out appropriate boundaries in daily caregiving between parents and children in areas such as expressing affection, privacy and toileting.  Minister of State for Social and Family Development, Sun Xueling, announced the guidelines on Nov 7 at the Asian Family Conference.

Kidstart, a non-profit organisation, specialises in supporting families in early childhood development.

The guidelines were developed as a tool for professionals in the early childhood, education, social service and healthcare sectors, to coach parents on setting healthy boundaries and practices. They come in the wake of the rising number of child abuse cases, as detailed in the Domestic Violence Trends report released by the MSF in September.

💬 What are your views on the guidelines? Do you feel that they will be effective in promoting healthier relationships between parents and their children?

📌 Inappropriate boundaries and abusive behavior

According to Ms Yogeswari Munisamy, senior principal social worker at the MSF’s Child Protective Service, inappropriate boundaries within families can, in some cases, escalate into abusive behaviour over time. She added that research has shown that violations of such boundaries can lead to confusion and distress for the child, which may normalise inappropriate behaviour and increase the risk of abuse.

📌 Examples of guidelines on healthy family boundaries

Expression of affection

It is inappropriate for parents to force their child to hug or kiss someone the child is fearful of or uncomfortable with. Instead, parents should respect the child’s right to say “no” to physical affection. This teaches children autonomy and empowers them to set personal boundaries.

Bathing practices

It is inappropriate for parents to bathe their child of the opposite gender or bathe together with their child regularly if the child can bathe independently. Parents should encourage the child to bathe independently as soon as he or she can. If the child requires help, it is more appropriate for a parent of the same gender to assist or supervise the child, until his or her early primary school years

Exposure to nudity

It is considered inappropriate behaviour for parents to expose their nude bodies to their children, even inadvertently. Parents should avoid changing in front of their children by the time the child is in upper primary school or puberty, whichever is earlier. Caregivers of the opposite gender should also avoid changing clothes in front of their child.

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/new-msf-guidelines-for-appropriate-caregiving-boundaries-between-parents-and-children

----

Daniel, [6/12/2024 10:01 AM]

These guidelines seem appropriate and useful (as a parent of young children)

REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : The guidelines on healthy family boundaries are useful in developing healthier relationships between parents and their children. Please elaborate on your views in the chat. ]

- Yes

- Unsure 

- No

Jun Ming, [6/12/2024 11:24 AM]

A suggestion to reach: maybe can include the guidelines pdf directly from government

Jun Ming, [6/12/2024 11:25 AM]

Instead just provide secondary sources from the news

G, [6/12/2024 11:34 AM]

Unsolicited govt interference in people's homes. 

Why this 4G PAP feel that there's a need to stick their noses into people homes?

Might as well install govt CCTVs in every HDB room (inc toilets) as part of standard BTO offering to pipe footage to MSF

G, [6/12/2024 11:34 AM]

Gross govt overreach

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 11:35 AM]

Although I agree that establishing boundaries would be beneficial for a child's growth. The main problem comes down to enforcement.

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 11:36 AM]

How would the government ensure such boundaries are sustained especially in the enclosed walls of a family's household?

speedperry 耘瑞, [6/12/2024 11:45 AM]

I felt the guidelines are 1) not enforceable; probably why it's a guideline 2) intended protection group are the children who unfortunately won't be reading news so the target audience is unlikely to be reached through this channel.

If this guideline were to work, it must be discussion in pre-schools to children, and in Pri schools. 

I appreaciate this to be a guideline and it is in line with our home practice.

G, [6/12/2024 11:45 AM]

Why even establish such guidelines?

This is rolling back the years to the 80s and LKY's toying with eugenics (graduates marry graduates)

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 11:46 AM]

Please explain how enforcing healthy boundaries for the child's sake is akin to eugenics

G, [6/12/2024 11:54 AM]

Both are gross govt overreach. 

Interfering in the people's homes

Steven Ong, [6/12/2024 12:02 PM]

While the guidelines serve as good suggestions, at the end of the day, every families have their own set of values. It may be good to use these 'suggestions' for education purposes in family services centres for outreach and public education workshops or events. To impose onto families will be challenging..

G, [6/12/2024 12:10 PM]

"Inappropriate boundaries and abusive behaviour"

Very rich subtitle.

This 4G PAP govt is inappropriately extending it's boundaries into people's homes, bedrooms, and bathrooms.

How is this not abusive behaviour from the 4G PAP?

Nicholas, [6/12/2024 12:12 PM]

Good to have a standard set of guidelines that the professionals can refer to. However given an imperfect world, these would need to be adapted based on circumstances. For example, in many cases, there may not be a man available to bathe the boy, so the mother or grandmother does it and that should be fine.

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 12:33 PM]

I personally find your comparison disingenuous, I believe there is nothing wrong with trying to increase the standards of a child’s mental wellbeing

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 12:34 PM]

The government should have, to a certain extent only, the right to enforce rules on a household

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 12:35 PM]

It is simply an extension of a governments responsibility of social services

Daniel, [6/12/2024 12:41 PM]

I believe these are guidelines only, noone going into your house to enforce it.

G, [6/12/2024 12:41 PM]

Sounds communist to me, in the guise of "help"

G, [6/12/2024 12:43 PM]

Sounds very much a step towards gestapo / kempeitai

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 12:44 PM]

Then on the flipside would you rather the government do not enforce family welfare?

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 12:44 PM]

As in, allow for domestic abuse to run rampant?

G, [6/12/2024 12:44 PM]

Raising child's mental wellbeing is always good. How this govt is trying to achieve it is not good

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 12:50 PM]

I see, I’m glad we have that common understanding

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 12:51 PM]

And I do agree enforcements for these policies is the most difficult part

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 12:52 PM]

So how would you suggest enforcement for such guidelines?

G, [6/12/2024 12:57 PM]

The main question then:

Why should such guidelines come from the govt?

G, [6/12/2024 12:58 PM]

Then don't even bring it up... Wasn't this the argument used for 377A to be abolished?

Daniel, [6/12/2024 1:00 PM]

To inform parents? When I was a new parent I was very happy to have guidelines and information from the Government on milk powder and baby nutrition. Saved me a lot of money and headache.

G, [6/12/2024 1:04 PM]

Where did you get this guideline and information from? How was this disseminated? 

How is this similar to govt overreach that's what MSF is putting forth?

Daniel, [6/12/2024 1:08 PM]

At the hospital, brochures at the polyclinic, sent to SMS, in the newspaper... how is this different?

G, [6/12/2024 1:21 PM]

Products vs behaviours

TreasureHunter, [6/12/2024 1:29 PM]

Not convinced why this guideline can promote healthy relationship. Perhaps need to provide more data points what adverse effects when guidelines are not followed. Then it can be a good reference point, and be introduced in pre martial or parenting workshops.

REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 2:01 PM]

📢Topic📢

Jun Ming, [6/12/2024 2:07 PM]

Guidelines is just guidelines. It's not law

Jun Ming, [6/12/2024 2:09 PM]

I am not a parent or parent to be but... I think in kindergarten there should have more boundaries in using toilet

Jun Ming, [6/12/2024 2:11 PM]

There should have male toilets and female toilets in kindergarten

Jun Ming, [6/12/2024 2:12 PM]

Not sure if it is a requirement now

Daniel, [6/12/2024 2:12 PM]

I think that's the norm already. Showering rooms also separate.

Jun Ming, [6/12/2024 2:13 PM]

That's good

REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 3:51 PM]

Dear Contributors,

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your views on the guidelines? Do you feel that they will be effective in promoting healthier relationships between parents and their children?

We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active! 

Do also share your opinion by participating in our polls! The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

Thank you!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 4:01 PM]

📢Topic📢

LCL (Danny 心), [6/12/2024 4:03 PM]

1. Parenting is not an easy job and most of the time, depends on trial and error and knowledge brought down by our parents or grandparents.

2. The methods of bringing up the children could have a long term effect on the children.

3. Hence if there are appropriate guidelines from children upbringing from professionals - I thought it is beneficial for parents to read and adopt for the benefits of the children.

4. Reading through the guidelines, I thought it is a sensible things to do - the guidelines make sense - and at the same time inculcate independency of the children.

LCL (Danny 心), [6/12/2024 4:17 PM]

1. The mental and psychological aspects of children cannot be underestimated.

2. Because if carelessness lead to children being abused sexually, physically or mentally by strangers - it will affect the psychological health of the children when growing up.

3. Most of the children are fortunately being taken care off well during their development stages.

4. But there could be some unfortunate ones - and the guidelines will bring awareness to the public - and make new parents more aware about the risks involved.

5. This will help new parents to be more mindful in handling their children so as not to succumb to pitfalls that can be avoided - and bring up their happy and healthy children.

REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 4:37 PM]

Greetings from REACH 

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G, [6/12/2024 5:23 PM]

So what's next for govt overreach? Already pushing to control bank accounts, now this..

Guidelines on the best time to brush teeth?

Jo Teo already said don't need a lot of space to have sex, so are follow up guidelines gonna be shared on which positions in tight spaces are the best for conceiving?

Will guidelines also be shared on morning routines for how to share 2 toilets for a family of 6 (2 grandparents, 2 parents, and 2 kids) so that all can get to work/school on time?

Will guidelines salad be shared on what's the optimum interval to change underwear?

Hanny, [6/12/2024 6:00 PM]

I’m just wondering what is it that makes gov come up with this ruling?

LCL (Danny 心), [6/12/2024 6:01 PM]

More reported child abuse cases.

LCL (Danny 心), [6/12/2024 6:02 PM]

Not ruling.

But guidelines to bring awareness to parents and caregivers, to help cut down child abuses.

LCL (Danny 心), [6/12/2024 6:04 PM]

Those who think the guidelines are useful, can read and adopt for the good of their children.

Those who find them not useful, no need to read.

They are just guidelines - parenting tips.

Not ruling.

LCL (Danny 心), [6/12/2024 6:19 PM]

Also MSF handle alot of social welfare cases - many child abuse cases detected.

LCL (Danny 心), [6/12/2024 6:21 PM]

The number of new Tier 1 child abuse cases, defined as those with low to moderate safety and risk concerns, rose 17 per cent from 2,377 in 2021 to 2,787 in 2023. (https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/less-serious-child-abuse-cases-in-singapore-on-the-rise-inaugural-report-on-family-violence)

Source :- Straits Times

Dr. Goh, [6/12/2024 6:25 PM]

Seen MSF cover up. It is definitely not fit to interfere in any family matters. Cover up for child abuse, helping child abusers, refusing to admit the truth. Sun Xueling should quit.

Jerome Then, [6/12/2024 6:37 PM]

???????????? Buddy what please cite source

LCL (Danny 心), [6/12/2024 6:43 PM]

Good! more fact check and balance.

REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 6:44 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [6/12/2024 6:59 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

====