REACH 425 - What are your views on the efforts to keep public housing affordable and accessible? How can we ensure that public housing remains accessible to the current and future generations of Singaporeans?
(SK)
08 Feb 2023 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:45 am, 08/02/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
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[9:59 am, 08/02/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In Parliament on 6 Feb (Mon), National Development Minister Desmond Lee explained that the proposal on deferring land costs was not feasible. Minister Lee also pointed out that the HDB aimed to reduce the waiting time for BTO flats. He stressed that additional housing support would be given to first-timer couples looking to build their families.
π¬ What are your views on the efforts to keep public housing affordable and accessible? How can we ensure that public housing remains accessible to the current and future generations of Singaporeans?
Here are some of the key points on the housing debate in Parliament:
π Flats remain largely affordable and accessible
On affordability and accessibility of public housing, Ministe Lee pointed out that in 2019, a four-room BTO flat in a non-mature estate was priced at S$341,000 on average, before grants. In 2022, the average price was S$342,000. He also added that Singapore’s home price-to-income ratio was generally four to five. In contrast, London, Los Angeles and Sydney had a ratio that ranges from eight to 15.
π First-time buyers
Minister Lee stressed that the Government is looking at providing more housing support for first-timer families. Measures such as reserving more than 90 per cent of flats in BTO launches for first-timers have been implemented. Additionally, the Government is also looking at providing more housing support for first-timers buying resale flats.
π Land costs in pricing HDB flats
Minister Indranee said that a housing scheme proposed by the Progress Singapore Party (PSP) to exclude land costs in pricing Housing Board flats will not only erode Singapore’s reserves, but will also benefit only a select group of flat buyers at the expense of all Singaporeans. It will also exacerbate the very issues of housing affordability and accessibility.
π Retirement adequacy
Ms Poa and Worker’s Party MP Jamus Lim pointed out that the use of CPF savings to finance housing mortgages worsens the retirement adequacy for home owners. In response, Mr Murali Pillai pointed out that home owners could only use their Ordinary Account in their CPF for housing mortgages. This translates to preserving their Special Account and Retirement Account.
π [ST]’Be careful what you wish for’ : Lively debate on keeping public housing affordable and accessible: https://bit.ly/3JKrtTZ
π [ST] First-timers buying HDB resale flats could get more support ; more BTO flats with shorter wait from 2024 : https://bit.ly/3YaS6Wv
π [ST] PSP’s housing scheme raids reserves and benefits some at expense of everyone else: Indranee
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/psp-s-housing-scheme-will-raid-reserves-benefit-some-at-expense-of-all-indranee
π [CNA] PSP calls for housing policy 'reset', Government stresses HDB flats remain affordable and accessible : https://bit.ly/3YmOFM6
π [CNA] Shorter wait times, lower rejection rates among proposals to ease housing shortage for first-time buyers : https://bit.ly/3Ydt6hc
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[10:06 am, 08/02/2023] +Grace: Sorry but is the ratio of income to cost of house correct? I think he is comparing Public Housing (SG) to Private Housing (Sydney, LA etc)
[10:47 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: The price of HDB flats is controlled by supply/demand. During financial crisis, because of excess HDB and people can't afford, the price didn't climb and it was reported that it even dipped. Thus far, increase in HDB is because low supply due to Covid. But other periods when the prices kept on climbing, government can simply build more but the person in charge didn't want to take any risk. They waited until there was sure demand before starting to build. Because of this policy, they will always be behind the demand curve. Based on what I've read in papers, government is very aware of it but no one in government wants to be wrong with the supply prediction. PLEASE INCREASE SUPPLY. If get it wrong, they can just reduce supply and the prices would go up …
[10:54 am, 08/02/2023] +L: Housing should not be a commercial interest, but we do expect to see measured appreciation, to help keep in pace with inflation etc. Perhaps long term landlords of HDB and Private property should pay capital gains tax on the profits when they sell?
[10:56 am, 08/02/2023] +L: Maybe HDB owners should have to sell if they own more than 1 private property, even after the MoP?
[10:58 am, 08/02/2023] +L: HDB system addresess a problem that all other developed countries have. Affordable housing for young people starting out in life. We are land restricted too. There is no magic wand for cheap property, but help is given already. The current restrictions on hdb ownership are old fashioned though. Have to be married if under 40? Why?
[10:58 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: This is already taken care of by the additional buyer/seller stamp duties.
[10:58 am, 08/02/2023] +L: How does that increase supply of HDB property?
[10:59 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: correction, that's to the first point about capital tax gains...
[10:59 am, 08/02/2023] +L: Well, partially, but doesn't address the concern about using HDB property for commercial gain.
[11:00 am, 08/02/2023] +Timothy Low: Close the loophole of decoupling. Many husband and wife are using decoupling to buy second property without paying ABSD.
[11:01 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: The only way to increase the supply is to start building more. Tear down 20 storey ones, build up 40 storey ones where possible. Population is increasing, supply of homes cannot remain stagnant. Must increase.
[11:02 am, 08/02/2023] +Timothy Low: At the same time, government should prevent people from owning both HDB and private property at the same time. So many are staying at private property and renting out their HDB and vice versa.
[11:02 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: i think HDB closed this loop hole already.
[11:03 am, 08/02/2023] +Thomas: If we build first and then plan to sell. Just look across the border in Malaysia. A lot developer adopt this and when in crisis , a number of them collapse and left with unsightly half built building. The other point of ownership of land, if we allow those with excess CPF to invest and own land, who is the actual owner of the land , will it be a co-operative and the land lease years ? If the land needs to be developed for other things, we need to get their approval ? The other issue Government has to ensure the profitable return of land and will sell the develop back to consumer at higher price to maintain the returns. This will only benefits the rich and those with excess CPF
[11:04 am, 08/02/2023] +Thomas: We have to determine demand first before we sell. Land is scarce in Singapore and we are land rich
[11:04 am, 08/02/2023] +Thomas: *not land rich
[11:06 am, 08/02/2023] +L: The other way is when people sell I guess, perhaps people owning 2 condos don't need their HDB as well?
[11:07 am, 08/02/2023] +L: Yes, agreed. There needs to be a slight ratio of demand over supply.
[11:08 am, 08/02/2023] +Timothy Low: I’m not too sure. I still see people advertising this method
[11:08 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: M'sia case is totally over supply. That's good example of what not to do. But see what it did to the price of housing there?
Ownership of the land still belongs to government for them to decide. Just like BRK-B shares, the holders have no voting rights. They have to trust Warren Buffet's mgmt team. In the same way, we need to trust that the government is prudent in their decisions; which the current government has demonstrated that they are.
[11:10 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: >The other issue Government has to ensure the profitable return of land ...
it's already happening.
[11:10 am, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Under 35 not 40.
To encourage citizens to settle down. Hence the various grants come in to support for various situations
[11:11 am, 08/02/2023] +L: Why is it the Gov job to set policy based on if people want to marry or not? Everyone needs a home. It should be related to their personal life choices.
[11:12 am, 08/02/2023] +L: Should not be related
[11:12 am, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Yes. HDB decoupling not allowed anymore
[11:13 am, 08/02/2023] +Thomas: The pressure will be on the Government to ensure a good returns of 4% or more . The consumer will be the population who need to pay more eventually . For private developer like Walton is purely profit driven. I don't our government to be profit driven. The investors are limited pool and doesn't benefit majority of population. Government policy must be equitable
[11:13 am, 08/02/2023] +Timothy Low: I see. So private condo owners still can decouple? Maybe can close that loophole
[11:13 am, 08/02/2023] +TD: Housing has always prioritised families.
[11:14 am, 08/02/2023] +TD: It should definitely be tied together.
[11:14 am, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Cfm no more
[11:14 am, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: CPF money not enough for retire when ballot HDB successful and collect key
[11:15 am, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Yes. Can be single owner
[11:15 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: >This will only benefits the rich and those with excess CPF
Somebody needs to pay for the land. The "profits" from the land sales is used to fund the other social programs. Currently, the ones that have difficulty in paying for the HDB are forced to pay the high prices regardless. By allowing the "rich" to help them afford their HDB, it's a win win win.
HDB lessees have less to pay if they choose the option (no one is forcing them),
government can still fund their social programs,
the "rich" have another safe investment option.
[11:18 am, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: https://mothership.sg/2020/11/hdb-lease-or-own/
[11:18 am, 08/02/2023] +L: What does everyone else do? Maybe families get bumped up the waiting list, and those with children first priority.
[11:25 am, 08/02/2023] +KL: I wonder why our population shrinking but need do many BTO and HDB :))
[11:25 am, 08/02/2023] +KL: Not include private housing
[11:26 am, 08/02/2023] +KL: Once we can explained the problem should solve HDB issue :))
[11:26 am, 08/02/2023] +TD: Buy Private or rent. This has been a deliberate pro-family policy from the start.
[11:28 am, 08/02/2023] +Thomas: I think the Government is doing this. The land is considered part of our reserve . The return of the reserve are used for the country and budget
[11:31 am, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: Right now, the land price is paid by the 1st time HDB buyer regardless of whether they can afford it or not. If there's someone, other than government, who can help them with the land price, their total HDB cost is lowered and can be affordable.
[11:58 am, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Kenneth, good morning! A good example of TRUST!
BUSINESS-CONSUMERS-GOVERNMENT
These B C G relationships aka TRUST!
Thank you!
[0:00 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Government could look at offering shorter HDB lease for new flats
[0:01 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: What is Relevancy and how about Growth?
Whether it is a business from SME to big corporation, trust worthy is the key enabler towards a progressive environment with it liveable or workable.
Thank you.
[0:02 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Uncle Law, good afternoon, good idea!
Affordability, can we create FLEXIBLE leases say 30 to 50 years bandwidth?
Thank you.
[0:03 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Perhaps subject to areas
[0:04 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: The particular estate, i.e few blocks uses the same lease tenure
[0:04 pm, 08/02/2023] +Kenneth Lee WM: Yes, that's a great idea and allow existing lessees to "top up" the leases at current market rate if their financial situation becomes more stable.
[0:04 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Yes, so should it never be changed? Maybe it was right 40 years ago. Does that mean it's right nowm
[0:05 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: There are costs such as building infrastructures out of BARE land.
How to price real estate, in this case Public Housings?
Simply to say, there is no free lunch in this world we all are living in, the past, the present and importantly into tomorrows.
Relevant is one key significance.
Thank you.
[0:06 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Many policies have been updated over the last 55 years. It's never a good answer to say "that's how it's always been"
[0:06 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: So might say it is anti Single people to prevent them from owning property. They are forced into rental, at ludicrous rates.
[0:07 pm, 08/02/2023] +Grace: Agree
[0:07 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: All the ABSD does is prevent lower income families from profiting from rental income, and the wealthier who can afford ABSD just push the extra cost onto the tenant.
[0:08 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: So basically single people and lower income families are paying the ABSD through their rent for the wealthy.
[0:08 pm, 08/02/2023] +Suma pamu: "First timers"
This is the key point
When a Local First timer competes with new citizen,
How fair is that, especially if The New citizen salary wise/economically Rich enough to buy Condo, buy just wanted to use subisdied housing?
Income ceiling is there, but when There is Balloting
It should be based on income wise
Means
Example
5k and below gets more priority vs Higher income
That way The competition for the genuine buyers will reduce
2. Again rich PRs Buying HDBs paying Covs increasing demand for Resale.flats
So must stop them totally, if not At least put income ceiling for Resale flats, and stop rich buying HDBs
Nothing more to say
Already mentioned how many of PRs Taking advantage of loop hole in the system.
(So far never Read any recent updates …
[0:08 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: Hi L, good afternoon, another good point!
THINGS always change.
Challenges will transform into changes!
Stagnation, however, is a state of stillness, not much growth opportunities.
So finding growth opportunities is the Green initiatives or digitisation or meaningful things that drive growth.
These are the games of tomorrow, it is coming and it cannot be avoided or ignored.
Thank you.
[0:09 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Grace, good afternoon.
Thank you!
[0:12 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Summa, good afternoon. Another great point raised.
It really doesn't matter especially to new citizens or our first timer buyers of flats.
Importantly, we include all stakeholders and let the markets DECIDE on tangibles as well as the intangibles.
Thank you!
[0:13 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: diaspora - whether one comes from the South of Asia or once upon in history, arrived from the North of Asia!
History is History...
Thank you.
[0:15 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: Embrace Diversity and we will see many sunshine from happiness to hope!
Thank you.
[0:28 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: The reasons are still valid. No need to change.
[0:30 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Agree
[0:31 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Circumstances can allow owing one property only, whether local or overseas
[0:32 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: We are land costly rather than rich!
[0:32 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: It's profamily. You can choose to see it as anti single
[0:33 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Pledging your house to tie in with your cpf might help.
[0:34 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Likewise
[0:37 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Many there are different opinions about that, which is what we try to debate here. Just saying "it is right" is also not an very helpful statement
[0:39 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: The fundamentals of the policy are profamily. You are trying to use sophistry to obscure the topic.
[0:39 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: It excludes people who can't afford private property from buying a home. I agree families should come first, but exclude those not ready or able to have a family seems wrong and might force people into marriage for the wrong reasons. Maybe I am a romantic, but I though marriage was about love, not buying property.
[0:39 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Fundamental goals of the policy has not changed
[0:40 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: I don't mind pro family policies, but should we deprive people of essential living opportunities because of it?
[0:40 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: What are the goals?
[0:41 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Because we are not seeing an increase in child birth, so is the policy failing?
[0:41 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Some might say it makes a mockery of marriage to tie it to a housing policy.
[0:42 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Are we deviating from the topic?
[0:42 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Policies in place to support
[0:42 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: So if it's not working enough, we should take away the crutch instead of doubling down?
[0:43 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: How is this a relavant point? If you're not married, stay with your parents
[0:43 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Grants or policies currently in place are available to support those who want to form family
[0:44 pm, 08/02/2023] +Suma pamu: Closed long ago
But those applying bto/resale if they can afford buying under one name
After 5 yrs the other can Buy Condo
That's why i mentioned
Prioritise the BTO/(even resalee)allocation based on income
[0:44 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Maybe parents think it's time for a 30+ year old to make their own way, and maybe a 30+ year old feels the same! Not all families get on great and maybe some people want some privacy..
[0:45 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: We are discussing housing policy, and this is a related point.
[0:45 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: This sounds like an individual issue and policies should not be made based on edge cases
[0:45 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Same edge case point
[0:45 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Maybe, perhaps we look at options. We could build more and increase demand by opening up the market a bit.
[0:45 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: How do we know it's edge case?
[0:46 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Lbgtq
[0:47 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Housing policies have been engineered to deliberately promote formation of nuclear families. Everything else is an edge case
[0:47 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Public housing are heavily subsidized to support long term plan of the country, hence is used to support and encourage forming of family nucleus.
Singles are allowed to buy private as early as 21 yo
[0:47 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Totally
[0:47 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: And exactly
[0:48 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Because someone doesn't want to get married you think they are LGBTQ?
[0:48 pm, 08/02/2023] +Joseph Yap: π¬ What are your views on the efforts to keep public housing affordable and accessible? How can we ensure that public housing remains accessible to the current and future generations of Singaporeans?
To keep public housing accessible:
1. Consider to give the first-time applicant a triple chance (ie. increased from current double chance) for BTO applications in non-mature estate, but cap this “triple chance privilege” to the applicant’s first two applications to prevent misuse and fickle-mindedness.
To keep public housing affordable:
1. The proposal on deferring land costs is too idealistic without considering the impact on national reserve and market prices of existing HDB flats.
2. To help first-time applicant, the existing grants are good. Consider using t…
[0:48 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: You're known to support their community. What else to think?
[0:49 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Is it working? How is the birth rate these days?
[0:50 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Working or not working, we can discuss on another time
[0:50 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: I'm 'known' really? Well, I am married with a kid if that helps... I am not homophobic that's true. I believe in an inclusive society, with equal opportunity for all. I also believe people benefit from owning their own homes and don't like to see people excluded due to old fashioned out dated views.
[0:51 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Sure, let's talk housing but ignore factors to do with housing that don't fit into our beliefs.
[0:51 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: In your world view.
I think it's valid. And I would hazard to say you're the minority
[0:52 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: I really hope and believe that being inclusive is not in the minority. I think those that like to exclude have louder voices, that's all.
[0:53 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Sophistry and trying to fudge the topic as usual
[0:53 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
'Generosity' of VERS scheme will give flat owners remaining value of lease: Sim Ann.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/vers-hdb-flats-lease-value-expiry-sim-ann-jamus-lim-parliament-3260371
[0:54 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: 'as usual' 'know' - not sure who you are or why you think you can speak about me like this. I added a relevant point about housing, which is today's topic. Seems that you are trying to distract from this and get personal.
[0:55 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: No, you are the one claiming that profamily policies are Uninclusive
[0:56 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: And calling for inclusion of edge cases
[0:56 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: We talking about how to keep public housing affordable rightM
[0:56 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: ?
[0:56 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
PSP’s housing scheme raids reserves and benefits some at expense of everyone else: Indranee.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/psp-s-housing-scheme-will-raid-reserves-benefit-some-at-expense-of-all-indranee
[0:56 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: They don't state how they calculate the value, do they?
[0:57 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Not yet
VERs not ready yet.
[0:58 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
But the intent is there
[0:58 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Yes, good to see them thinking about how this might work. Clearly the value is of paramount importance!
[1:03 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Glad that both the government and oppositions pick up:-
1. CPF for retirement
2. VERs monetizing of flats to supplement retirement
And debate in parliament as paramount to Singaporeans.
[1:04 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Note :-
1. Singapore has no natural resources - only human capital.
2. Singaporeans earn their savings through 2 means :-
a. Salaries, business and investment income - to accumulate cash savings.
b. House (HDB flat, condo, landed property) - hence there must be ways to monetise Songaporean's house to convert into cash for retirement - so that less burden will be put onto the government and taxpayers money.
[1:10 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Got to get back to work, but I do believe housing and marriage are related and this is partly due to government policy.
Interesting to see that the largest share of divorces (29%) happen between 5 and 9 years (coincidentally after the MoP expires?)
If we rethink the policy of requiring marriage to buy HDB then we open up the opportunity to increase (or manage) demand better, and can therefore build more too, which is good for the economy and Citizen's right to live more freely.
Perhaps there could be other restrictions on singles, or bigger grants for families. There is a solution out there that benefits more people, I do believe that!
[1:11 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: There is a need to relook at the housing policies no doubt. Perhaps moderator can set as next round topic?
[1:12 pm, 08/02/2023] +L: Could build lots of 1 bedroom HDBs for Single person purchase, for example :)
[1:13 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: "Interesting to see that the largest share of divorces (29%) happen between 5 and 9 years (coincidentally after the MoP expires?) "
This shouldn't be blamed on MOP, from what I understand, it's about the average regardless of country.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/divorce/bulletins/divorcesinenglandandwales/2021#:~:text=The%20most%20common%20duration%20of,for%20female%20same%2Dsex%20couples.
The most common duration of marriage for opposite-sex couples getting divorced in 2021 was 8 years, with 6,229 divorces.
[1:13 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Lol.
[1:14 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Theres the dirt cheap non mature estates for singles.
[1:15 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: 2BR, - a lot of them under 100k
[1:29 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
One way to keep the price down is to :-
1. Make supply exceed demand.
Once supply exceed demand, price will go down as less buyers go after too many houses.
2. Another way is to dampen demand, whereby government implement anti-speculatory measures.
[1:29 pm, 08/02/2023] +Redzuan: π«£
in ten years from now.
when we built more and more units… more problems for future MPs.
- Singaporean Unable to afford, so open to other sources to buy as an investment π€·πΌ
- familes do not talk to each other, everyone is busy with thier phones
- neighbours do not talk to each other
- “imports” staying within neighbourhood do not talk to each other
- social problems rises, security challenges rises
- Health activities slowing down, more health problems at early age
- In public traansport u cannot even talk to each other.
- public transport jam pack surong peak hours
- public tranpsort end of life, need upgrading and expensive maintainance
- at work .. colleagues gang up to bring down possible great leader.
- list go on ..
πππ
[1:33 pm, 08/02/2023] +Noraini: Supply can never exceed demand as govt easily increase FT
[1:34 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Over supply of BTO is risky
[1:34 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Become like the past in jurong West blocks 9xx
[1:34 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Empty for long period
[1:35 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Holding cost increases
[1:35 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: BTO is still a good concept but further tweaking needed to bring down the delivery period
[1:36 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Singapore economy do well however survey ppl question.
-Wage slow salary
-Housing and supply fast inflation
-SMU,NUS and NTU grade expectations salary $6k to $10k monthly employment.
- more foreigner investment in sg
[1:37 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: HDB ceiling income can be increment up to $15k allow them buy instead private apartment.
[1:41 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Waiting time can be shorten to 2 to 3 years because:-
1. Demolition is quite fast.
2. Foundation takes a bit of time.
3. Pre-fab of flats is done in the factory and ready to fit interior fitting. Hence can greatly speed up building from brick by brick.
4. Hence 2 to 3 years waiting time from 5 to 7 years is achievable.
5. My areas got 2 condos all done in this manner.
1 done by GLC completed, top and now residents shifted in within 2 years.
Another done by a China developers take about 2 1/2 years - almost complete.
[1:46 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Too much oversupply of BTO flats are risky.
But slightly oversupply is manageable because:-
1. It can be translated into rental flats.
2. Can be rented out to PRs or foreigners working in Singapore.
3. Can be use as buffers to keep racing HDB flats prices in check.
4. Can be used for other legitimate purpose.
[1:52 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Managing and controlling the demand and supply is the correct economic principles of managing prices.
This includes managing property prices.
2. Not exclusion of land price - which not only infringe law - a house title deed, it also crash the whole property market and lead to a sesimic economic disaster and wipe out the population wealth as well as the country sovereign reserves in one big swop.
[1:52 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: PR or foreigner give up rental overprice and leave singapore
[1:53 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Because demand far exceed supply.
[1:53 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: The question is inflation is fast than wage growth
[1:53 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Y
[1:53 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Agree
[1:53 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Nowadays young ppl grade expectation salary $6k to $10k
[1:56 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: What we need focus on how we wage growth and stay on employment. Then we are able to affordably housing.
[1:56 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: A survey done on university undergraduate mentioned salary expectations of sgd10k upon graduation!?
[1:57 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Yes
[1:58 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: We are different in 1990s HDB affordable with basic salary.
Present 2023 living cost is high level.
[1:59 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Adjusted for inflation only
[1:59 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Follow MTI index
[2:01 pm, 08/02/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In Parliament on 6 Feb (Mon), National Development Minister Desmond Lee explained that the proposal on deferring land costs was not feasible. Minister Lee also pointed out that the HDB aimed to reduce the waiting time for BTO flats. He stressed that additional housing support would be given to first-timer couples looking to build their families.
π¬ What are your views on the efforts to keep public housing affordable and accessible? How can we ensure that public housing remains accessible to the current and future generations of Singaporeans?
Here are some of the key points on the housing debate in Parliament:
π Flats remain largely affordable and accessible
On affordability and accessibility of public housing, Ministe Lee pointed out…
[2:10 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Not all bah… my starting only 3k π₯²
[2:11 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: With 10 years work experience but recent grad with local part time degree
[2:11 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Time is filed and fast
[2:11 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Stay on wage growth
[2:12 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: 2009 back when my colleague fresh grad NUS also only 2.5k π
[2:13 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: 1st class, Pharma MNC
[2:13 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: I was in 1990s salary basic is $900
[2:13 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Wage stagnation is true lol π₯²
[2:14 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: 2017
[2:14 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So if government do well in dealing with housing and monetising housing - it can fulfil my vision of uplifting the lower 90% of the population.
[2:15 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Why not government review CPF growth increases interest rate follow the ration inflation high
Nowadays bank deposits offer more interest rate
[2:16 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Personally I feel the MND Ministers Desmond Lee, Sim Ann and the MND folks put in their hearts to realise this vision.
Kudos to them.
[2:16 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Government fix low interest loan.. you like that make policy maker quite hard π€£
[2:17 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Agree
[2:17 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
This will inflate the mortgage rate for those who are borrowing from CPF.
This could lead to spiralling inflation.
[2:17 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Yes
[2:17 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: We put in risk free… so expect low interest…
[2:17 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Similar we get HBD loan at super good rates.. pegged to our CPF
[2:18 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: I have no complaint
[2:18 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Good times bad times… I just need to worry about my job. Interest rate I can don’t care
[2:18 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Unless you take bank loans
[2:18 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: When u get 2nd submit BTO and refinance loan HDB it will lend you 3.88% fix
[2:19 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Oh? Didn’t know… I buy resales.. the wait was too long
[2:19 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: π
[2:19 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Lol wait MOP after
[2:19 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Didn’t have chance to get BTO
[2:19 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Wow
[2:19 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: What ppl wish to upgrade 4/5 room
[2:20 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
When interest rate is very low close to 1%, CPF rate has been kept for 2.5% for many years.
Now only this 2 years, bank interest rate exceed 2.5%.
CPF interest rate serve as a mortgage to ensure affordability of young house owners to finance their flats.
A big increase in cpf rates will make housing affordability out of reach for this young owners.
Very high debt leverage.
[2:20 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: If can afford Lar.. who will complaint house too big? π€£
[2:20 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Can the government give notice on yearly update to cpf interest rates rather than the current!?
[2:20 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Top up cash pay loan
[2:21 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: I have friends that does that.. to avoid HDB interest
[2:21 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: If you have so much spare cash Lar
[2:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Technically the interest you owe to yourself… as long as you sell after retirement age.. lol the money rarely need to pay no?
[2:23 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: If young at age 30+ start marriage and then get new home loan exceeded $300k will sure pay top cash if they have enough saving and income mins
[2:26 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: When buying is at your current pay… as your pay grows.. the difference will have some space for accumulation.
Not including bonus.. so really depends.. my CPF still building up… I use CPFIS to buy Singapore index
[2:27 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Now CPF interest rate of 2.5% is the stabiliser.
Because young house owners can borrow it at 2.6% to finance their house.
The moment we increase the interest rate beyond 2.5% - high debt leverage will be imposed on the young house owners - forcing a big financial burdens onto the young couples.
[2:28 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Buy within your means…
[2:28 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: If you push to get 2 house for more income you bear the risk.
[2:28 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Yes correct plus property tax
[2:29 pm, 08/02/2023] +Ken: Hence the levy impose
[2:52 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: 8 February, 2023
"Making Ends Meet...?"
- - anonymity
Just In Case?
What's wrong with wages these days and all these years (last 40 years)?
Get paid enough just to survive (and) raise your family of 4?
Get paid less for what you think you are worth more?
Your CPF ( & your spouse CPF) will fund almost all your flats installments so long you (both) continues working for X years?
You spent $30k or more on renovating your first home?
You pay for things that are worth it?
You spent on things that may or may not be sensible?
You spent within your means and forced save up to 25% of yours (family) monthly income?
You wishing that housings would be one-third (half priced for private homes) of today's prices?
You hoping your salary will be adjusted 30% m…
[3:20 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: Let's take a look at history. Take this compass, this HDB report. This BTO started in 2001 and today is well over two decades.
Same heated topic then and today 2023 again a new hot talking point!
Credit be given to our pioneers and past leaders for the foresight.
Planning-Building- Implementing
This PBI is not an easy task and mostly a no-glory job as the MND!
[4:00 pm, 08/02/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In Parliament on 6 Feb (Mon), National Development Minister Desmond Lee explained that the proposal on deferring land costs was not feasible. Minister Lee also pointed out that the HDB aimed to reduce the waiting time for BTO flats. He stressed that additional housing support would be given to first-timer couples looking to build their families.
π¬ What are your views on the efforts to keep public housing affordable and accessible? How can we ensure that public housing remains accessible to the current and future generations of Singaporeans?
Here are some of the key points on the housing debate in Parliament:
π Flats remain largely affordable and accessible
On affordability and accessibility of public housing, Ministe Lee pointed out…
[4:07 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Forget to mention Minister Indranee.
She is also very accurate to illustrate the disastrous impact of forgoing land prices - a very unorthodox idea - even opposition WP don't support.
[4:08 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Agree
[4:18 pm, 08/02/2023] +Anselm: To truly solve this issue, there is a need for a mindset shift (for both Singaporeans and the government ) from viewing HDB as an appreciating asset to a forever home.
[4:20 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: SMS Sim Ann mentioned in the parliament telecast last night on mediacorp channel 5. House security is critical but more important job security.
[4:20 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: I think it's not a forever home if it's 99 yrs and it costs so much
[4:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: I guess Singaporeans are forced to look at the value because there is simply no way they can buy another house once the lease is up and so much of their savings are tied up inside
[4:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: U can't make this issues disappear with a mindset change
[4:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Agree
[4:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Yes
[4:23 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Forever home within your life time, yes
[4:23 pm, 08/02/2023] +Anselm: yes I don't think i'll live past 99 π
[4:24 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Kids future, we need to teach them to think for themselves
[4:24 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: We can't possibly plan for them by keeping the house for them
[4:25 pm, 08/02/2023] +Anselm: side note, 99yrs lease is not unique to Singapore,
[4:27 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: The western concept of young adults moving out of their parents home and affording their own place will not work here.
[4:28 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Agree. Incompatible
[4:28 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Not referring to west culture. Is future gens to buy their own house
[4:31 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Only available if they get married as still limited options for singles!
[4:33 pm, 08/02/2023] +Uncle Law: Upbringing impt
[4:34 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: 99 years is a rental land and freehold is a generation
[4:35 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Either way can be subjected to acquisition for development
[4:35 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Singapore future 2122 from preset 99 years everything is changed developed
[4:45 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Because higher flat servicing cost - will trigger workers to demand higher wages.
2. Business will transfer higher wage cost to higher consumer prices - leading to higher wage induced inflation.
3. Higher prices good and services will mean our economy become less competitive.
[4:45 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Will be on the afterlife long before!
[4:45 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Yes
[4:46 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: World follow USA’s FED hike rate
[4:46 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Are employers aware that the days of cheap labour even for menial jobs are long over!?
[4:52 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
GLC developed condo - completed within 2 years.
Now TOP residents move in.
[4:53 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
China developer condo - about 2 1/2 years.
Almost complete.
All use pre fab technology to speed up building development.
Thus 2 to 3 years building duration - doable.
[4:54 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Cool keen to buy
[4:54 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
But government bonds, pension funds that have public interest tie to it need not follow fed.
[4:55 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: I have not acknowledged much about it. I heard ppl who loan bank hike interest rate will hurt them
[4:56 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Singapore saving bond drop from 3.97% to 2.9%.
Bank interest about 4%.
[4:57 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: 4% too much
[4:57 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Those property owner who borrow from banks are crying now.
[4:57 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Ultimately it's still the issue of the housing costs. As long as it's very expensive and a huge chunk of salaries and savings
[4:57 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Yes more hurting
[4:57 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Problem will not go away
[4:58 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: If the amount is high and u can maybe pass down to your kids then pple can prob stomach it better but if not then it becomes even less acceptable
[4:59 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: If salaries cannot increase because it will make Singapore less competitive yet public housing continues it's spaceward trajectory then it will cause issues
[5:00 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Thus government will have to manage the affordability of housing very carefully.
Because it have butterfly effect.
One small wrong move can trigger an economic impact.
Especially housing and its finance because it is the biggest price ticket item.
Subprime housing crisis in US trigger a worldwide recession.
So it is no joke.
[5:00 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: I think need to have a clear balance between good profits from increasing housing prices and keeping public houses affordable
[5:01 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: I agree subsidising is probably not the best but in that case, salaries should increase based on the market and we should abandon the concept of high pay makes us less attractive.
[5:01 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Then EC and private apartments will drop down business due to inflation high
[5:01 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Have to make the labour so good that pple are willing to pay more
[5:02 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Nothing seems to make it drop over the last 10 years
[5:02 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
High salary must commensurate with productivity.
[5:02 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: All the Cooling measures but it keeps cheonging...
[5:02 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Ppl will fear of hike again will deeper trouble financially
[5:02 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
This is a fundamental economic principles.
Else business will leave Singapore.
[5:03 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Yes but cannot because of this go low pay only
[5:03 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Hot Money flowing into Singapore from China.
[5:03 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Pay must be consummerate with costs
[5:03 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: One of the reasons . π€£
[5:04 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Resent news China wealth ppl 700 move in Singapore
[5:04 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
US many states, many business and industry leave to go China because high pay don't commensurate with productivity.
But silicon valley can demand high pay because productivity exceed the higher pay for skill workers.
[5:04 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: It's very hard for pay to keep up with costs though
[5:05 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: A problem everyone struggles with
[5:05 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: Good news. Our retail sector desperately needs boosting. and the Chinese spend like water.
[5:05 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Agreed
[5:05 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Yes , the side effect is also driving up prices
[5:05 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Everything has pro and cons
[5:06 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: That is true.
[5:06 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Important to be aware of both and manage accordingly
[5:07 pm, 08/02/2023] +TD: But - I don't think/belief that spending by HNW will have a huge knock on inflationary effect on HDB prices.
0% effect, no. but large effect? unlikely?
They don't consume in the normal price segment the median population does.
[5:16 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Thus many US states are called Rust Belt because many manufacturing business leave, due to high wages or obsolete industries.
Many go to China.
Hence become rusty - called Rust Belt - many people unemployed.
[5:17 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So high wages must always invoke productivity growth - not increase wages just because inflation.
[5:20 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Fed interest now exceed 5%.
[5:21 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: The interesting part about productivity . Seems to imply manufacturing or production
[5:21 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: The really high tier are the R&D and development of companies and business
[5:21 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: I know gahmen has been trying this for years and it's really hard
[5:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: And employment in these segments are always by nature small
[5:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: And unless the companies are founded here it's hard
[5:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: If the upstream is hard then maybe the realistic only choice is the control the costs
[5:22 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: I don't really see any other way
[5:23 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Productivity improvement has it's limits
[5:23 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: And it's gonna get harder with automation and AI
[5:26 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So far I noticed that only PAP have the knowledge to run Singapore economy and have done it skillfully and managed it very well.
WP cannot.
PSP will send Singapore back into stone age with a Big Bang.
[5:28 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Productivity come with workers using automation and AI to produce the output.
Hence such skilled workers can demand higher wages.
Skilled workers must not be at the lower end of the food chain that are replaced by automation or AI.
[5:30 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Every industry use automation (IT) and AI.
Not only manufacturing.
[5:33 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Indeed, the AI is moving up the good chain actually
[5:33 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Nowadays software is good enough to do legal briefs better than lawyers
[5:33 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: U all heard about chatGPT right
[5:34 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Some professor ran it through a chartered accounting exam and it passed with a 66-70% grade
[5:35 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: I have seek it somewhere in Singapore police station neighbour become one service computer
no more human service
[5:36 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Many government services are automated now
[5:36 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Applying licenses and vocational stuff
[5:36 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: All automatic
[5:37 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: Yes
[5:37 pm, 08/02/2023] +Frankie Wee: It’s technology automated it’s help human less errors
[5:40 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Eg.
1. Last time I need to buy 10 physical servers, need to allocate rack spaces for 10 servers and need to physically moved, installed, configure 10 physical servers - very high cost, take me 10 days to do it.
2. Now I only need to buy 1 physical server, rent 1 rack space and configure 10 virtual machines.
I can do it within 2 days.
Productivity increase 5 times.
I deserve higher pay.
[5:41 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: In theory, they can do it remotely from offshore like India? π€£
[5:41 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: Yes
[5:41 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Every thing now is cloud and virtual
[5:41 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Using vpn
[5:41 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Last time I need to spend 1 full day to write an essay.
Now I use ChatGPT to generate the essay.
I just need to refine the essay, I took me 2 hours.
Productivity increase.
[5:42 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
But they can't do the physical server part.
[5:42 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: The server can be offshore mah
[5:42 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: At some server farm
[5:42 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Business IP cannot offshore mah.
[5:43 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Now many banks and business inshore the data centre back to Singapore.
Not many outsourcing.
[5:43 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Not at their home countries ?
[5:44 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Huh?
[5:44 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Regional hub in Singapore mah.
[5:45 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
If r&d done in Singapore, then data centre keep here mah.
[5:45 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Eg. DBS, OCBC data centre is in Singapore not offshore.
[5:46 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Orrh
[5:46 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Singapore data centre is one of the largest in this region.
[5:46 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: I not from IT background
[5:46 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: My company outsource all their IT
[5:46 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: No company IT anymore
[5:46 pm, 08/02/2023] +Fulgrim: Sub con some company to provide the support
[5:47 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Some manufacturing with r&D here, keep their IP in Singapore.
[5:48 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Well for companies with IP to protect, they have their own IT department.
[5:51 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Normally big business use public cloud for customers fronting apps.
But setup their own private cloud manage by their own IT department for IP or some private data exchange.
Cannot be your r&d patent, customer list, payroll all put in public cloud and let hackers hack bah.
[6:00 pm, 08/02/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In Parliament on 6 Feb (Mon), National Development Minister Desmond Lee explained that the proposal on deferring land costs was not feasible. Minister Lee also pointed out that the HDB aimed to reduce the waiting time for BTO flats. He stressed that additional housing support would be given to first-timer couples looking to build their families.
π¬ What are your views on the efforts to keep public housing affordable and accessible? How can we ensure that public housing remains accessible to the current and future generations of Singaporeans?
Here are some of the key points on the housing debate in Parliament:
π Flats remain largely affordable and accessible
On affordability and accessibility of public housing, Ministe Lee pointed out…
[6:06 pm, 08/02/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Even if r&d is not done here, Singapore is also a backup redundant data centre hubs for many continents - US, Europe, Asia Pacific.
They replicate their data over to Singapore data centre because we are shielded from natural disasters, political turmoil and we have talents and good infrastructure to be the IT hub.
[6:45 pm, 08/02/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
[6:48 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/7b4XuKr27NI
[6:49 pm, 08/02/2023] +65 8498 8853: True I knew 1 whose an official status from China coming to Singapore to invest
[6:52 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/X3SG-dGwb2Q
Don't forget...
[6:55 pm, 08/02/2023] +Smiley face: "No matter how life treats you, don't be despaired, don't be disappointed and don't forget our pioneers and leaders who fought a LARGER battle of lives and livelihoods..."
- - anonymity
Thank you!
[6:58 pm, 08/02/2023] +Rama: πππππ€π
[6:59 pm, 08/02/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
====
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