REACH 416 - What are your views on the affordability and pricing of BTO flats in Singapore?
(SK)
12 Dec 2022 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:45 am, 12/12/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
Welcome back! π
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Megan π
[10:00 am, 12/12/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In response to requests for more details about development costs of BTO flats, MND and HDB shared information on how BTO flats were priced, as well as the development costs for the flats. HDB explained that the bulk of development costs – $3.167 billion – went into land costs while $2.077 billion went into building costs.
π¬ What are your views on the affordability and pricing of BTO flats in Singapore?
HDB assured Singaporeans that BTO flats were sold below cost as it cost HDB on average $396,000 to develop each of the new flats handed over to buyers in FY 2021 to 2022. Yet, HDB only collects an estimated $365,700 in sales proceeds per unit. HDB differentiated its pricing approach from private residential developers, which price for profit. HDB also provided greater clarity on BTO pricing through raising the following points:
π Construction costs of BTO projects
Construction costs of every BTO project are publicly available, as prices of awarded contracts are published on the HDB InfoWeb and government procurement portal GeBiz. HDB also publishes the cost and revenue of building and selling flats in its annual report, reflecting development loss from its home ownership programme
π Land costs
On land costs, HDB pays fair market value for land that is developed into public housing. The fair market value is determined independently by the Chief Valuer in accordance with market conditions and established valuation principles. As land used for public housing is meant for providing affordable homes to Singaporeans, the land price for public housing is lower compared to the land price for private housing in the same locality. Proceeds from HDB’s land purchase are paid back into the Past Reserves, which are invested to generate returns for future generations of Singaporeans.
π Affordability of BTO flats
To determine affordability, HDB said it looks at residents’ household incomes and compares them with the range of flat types and selling prices of BTO flats for every launch. In the first half of 2022, 90% of buyers of flats in non-mature estates and over 80% of those in mature estates, spent 25% or less of their monthly income on mortgage, as compared with international benchmarks of around 30% to 35%. HDB also added that it applies a significant subsidy to ensure new flats are affordable for buyers.
π BTO flats compared to resale flats
Prices of recently transacted comparable HDB resale flats are shown alongside BTO selling prices at each launch. “These prices clearly show that each BTO project is priced substantially lower than comparable resale flats, due to the significant subsidies applied,” said HDB.
π https://str.sg/wCWp
π https://www.mnd.gov.sg/newsroom/press-releases/view/media-statement-on-hdb's-pricing-approach-and-development-costs-for-bto-flats
π https://str.sg/wVGc
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[10:44 am, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Voicing my children needs on BTO.
1. More BTO flats near parents home (mature estates) to be made available.
2. Need a 5 room flat as he needs a bigger house for future children as well as setting up gadgets working from home.
3. Need to ensure continuous employment to accumulate sufficient CPF for at least 20 years to pay for the flat.
4. Hope sufficient subsidy to cushion the price of the BTO flat.
5. Cannot comment whether the BTO flat is affordable now until my children start applying for the BTO flats.
6. Waiting time for the BTO flat should not be too long - preferably less than 2 or 3 years upon application.
[10:48 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: BTO cannot be build so fast… if not market will crash π
Demand must always be higher than supply to keep healthy valuation
[10:48 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: The BTO getting smaller is just a bit sad. I choose to buy resales due to the size.
Not getting new ones more pricy and small unit just don’t make sense
[10:51 am, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
BTO flats if for housing - a roof to stay not for speculation - then moderation in the resale market should not be a problem.
This is the original mission of HDB flats.
Wonder how come HDB flats has now become a speculative instruments.
[10:52 am, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Point 6 - between 3 years minimum to 5 years maximum depending on market situation.
[10:52 am, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
4 to 5 years too long if the young couple need to marry.
[10:52 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: In comparison, HDB in price are definitely more expensive. Based on the price/m2.
Yes affordable cause it is just smaller… like pay $3 for 100g chicken rice. Now is $3 for 80g..
To keep the price affordable π
[10:54 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Pt 6. Within 3yrs is tough. Esp nowadays the block are tall.
Policies should gear twds reducing foreigner ownership.
Cap their ownership to max 1 pty.
[10:56 am, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Supply and demand must balance
[10:56 am, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Agree
[10:57 am, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Cap is applied when subsidy fir dwelling is removed when owning second property
[10:57 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Why so many types…
[10:57 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Just ridiculous
[10:57 am, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Location, view, height, size all play a part in priming
[10:57 am, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Yes
[10:59 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: But people still buy lol… hence HDB can build smaller and smaller
[10:59 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: π€·π»♂️
[10:59 am, 12/12/2022] +Rama: True
[11:08 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: The price will only continue to elevate
[11:10 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: 1st timer owner will suffer
[11:18 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: The policies need to be forceful.
Raised the SC 3rd pty ABSD to 30%. This will prevent those cash rich from spoiling the market price.
Cap foreigner ownership including PRs to 1 pty.
Even if GLS throw out for lands for developers, time is needed to build. Amidst shortage of labour and materials, it won't help to reduce building time.
The above proposal should be temporary cooling measures on top of existing ones to dampen on demand.
[11:18 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: I have mentioned before as at present Super high resale prices, low supply high demand, Stop The PRs buying HDBs.
The newly minted citizens and PRs (3yrs waited) This group is the one mostly buying Just MOP flats in Non mature estates ,now you can see prices there already going higher, So soon BTO prices in non mature also will go high.
Why people creating bubble?
Why a 3I 4I
With single toilets unable to sell in some places
Only very unique old properties selling Higher, remaining all difficult to sell. Bubble has been created.
It need to be bursted.
Everything will be ok.
The Unwise CPF rule is one cause for bubble.
When buyers rush to buy Just MOP flats..the demand rises...prices will raise.. why people flocking at those?
Because of CPF rule... Soon you will see there won't be any 4rm below 450K in resale.
If resale going crazy prices, everyone wants to rush for BTO.
So demand for BTO increases .. unsuccessful families becomes unhappy..
With out looking at the ACTUAL PROBLEM
How much we talk about AFFORDABILITY IS NO USE at all.
Bring the rule PRs not allowed to buy HDBs anymore.
Stop the unwise CPF policies
Instead of waiting 50 yrs lease left
Enbloc low rise HDBs and Reuse the land to built more flats in mature estates
If waiting all residents to be 70yrs old..no one likes to move...
So enbloc those properties with 60-70 yrs lease left,.
(Rather than waiting 40-50 yrs lease left..) Where there is opportunity to build higher floors.
Immediate action
Ban PRs (may/may not be temporary decision)
Those PRs who are not living in Singapore, force them to sell.
[11:19 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Once demand falls, price will fall
[11:21 am, 12/12/2022] +Grace: Please keep 1st homes affordable
[11:21 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Only when price is naturally adjusted by market
[11:27 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Foreigner n PRs should not be allowed to own freehold pty
[11:29 am, 12/12/2022] +Wai Xin: I am in my late 30s and I just bought my first flat. Why so late? Because I finally met the right person and after dating for some years we decided to settle.
Sure, BTO is relatively affordable to resale in the same neighbourhood, but we can't wait to start our new milestone. and furthermore the chance of getting a BTO is higher only if u had applied more than two times for non-mature estate. For the young couples, they have the time to queue and wait, but that is if they met the right person early. Either that or they have to hedge their future happiness for the opportunity of a cheap and new flat.
I see the rush to buy recently MOP unit is largely because of the fear of lease decay and loss of value in the long term. This coupled with the initial intention of many BTO buyer to flip the house to make an earning creates the perfect formula of driving up the prices. Even my real estate agent urges me to sell away my "newly bought" 40 year old unit immediately after 5 years and buy something newer.
[11:31 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Yes
[11:33 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Lease decay.. the CPF rule ...
Worest combination..
Ended up People creating bubble.
That's why if any new policy they must Study alternative reactions..
When the rule came ...i knew that this will happen.. and It has been happening.
Need to action before situation worsens
[11:38 am, 12/12/2022] +Wai Xin: I do applaud the overnight implementation to hold back private properties owners from buying HDB and forcing a 15 months wait. I know there had been several condo developments that the owners sell them immediately on TOP. In fact real estate agents had waited outside the condo and intercepted cars to urge the house owners to sell. (you read me right, they intercepted cars at driveway).
These are the people who had paid a fraction of the money from the development launch to TOP, and immediately get it off their hands to earn the high margins. Taking the profit gained and go straight back into the HDB resale market to acquire their dream home. Nothing wrong with being capitalistic, but it makes a public housing become inaccessible for a larger population.
[11:39 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Err we need the PR, they are potential future citizens.
I am descendent of one myself.
Having a place they can call home help with integration
[11:39 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: PR not staying in Singapore agreed should set a limit and force them to sell
[11:41 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Need Ofcourse
Not to the extent of Singaporeans suffer
That's why i mentioned
Policy might be a temporary one
When Prices stabilise
They can reinforce PR buying hdbs
[11:42 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: There are many
Who supposed to sell
But sometimes can not becz struck with MOP
Sometimes just Wanted to encash by renting.
[11:42 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Double edge… high price also means those people want to downsize has a bigger share.
[11:42 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: For those retiring
[11:42 am, 12/12/2022] +65 9630 5577: PR also need a place to stay can not forever rent a place.
[11:43 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: And some singaporean keeping house not staying. π those another bunch.
I have neighbour then since move in 2020 never seen before… heard they are overseas. π€£ just hold the unit for fun… lol
[11:44 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: I don't think aby elederly goung n buying Non mature estates Just MOP flats and making the market bubble!
Not seen any infactπ
[11:44 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Don’t even rent out
[11:44 am, 12/12/2022] +Wai Xin: unfortunately policies related to foreigners cannot be flipped around in short time frame as that will paint Singapore as rejecting the inflow of foreigners, or closed society.
[11:45 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: But
When Prices raising
See what is happening
The rentals gone up toooo high, some of my clients literally trying to move to other countries
[11:46 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: So to be a Foreigner friendly place, nit necessary to allow PRs buying HDBs.
[11:46 am, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Lots of countries has this rule… Singapore are relatively more relax. I think… not very sure anyone is familiar?
[11:47 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: And frankly
Those Expats coming here, may not really coming for π° benefits
They are mostly inclined for the safe and secure society Singapore has
[11:47 am, 12/12/2022] +Wai Xin: we are, we placed ourselves on the world map by being a welcoming country. we welcome people with resource, talent, and experience to contribute to our country. whereas many countries in the world right now, due to populism are rejecting foreigners.
[11:48 am, 12/12/2022] +Wai Xin: Brexit is an example of how the politicians painted a dire state of how Europeans are stealing the livelihood from British. Scaring them into voting for Brexit.
[11:49 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: And especially with unstable hongkong
Singapore will still attract foreigners
Don't need to do any extra thing to appease them
Two things are more important for them
1. Housing . rental need to be affordable
2. Children education must be affordable..
The second one is serious problem
Compare to first one.
So No need to Think much abt the foreiger
At present
[11:49 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Not saying they can't buy. Buy capped
[11:50 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Control Home prices .. eventually Rental will drop
Simple theory.
[11:51 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Yes
[11:51 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: But can't really control
[11:51 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: You can only dampened the demand
[11:51 am, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Yes
Stabilise is the key thing
[11:52 am, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: So I urged the REACH Team to bring up our proposals asap
[11:58 am, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: Many PRs are also converting to citizens and they have much more wealth. In a way it pushes the cost up even for HDBs which is why u see amazing prices
[11:59 am, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: It is hard to really have proposals to address this but the real cause is wealth disparity
[11:59 am, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: Solve that and all other issues resolve themselves
[0:00 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Wealth disparity is not just 1 yr or 2
[0:00 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: It takes a generation
[0:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: U mean solving wealth disparity ? Creating is easy
[0:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: Lol
[0:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: Import millionaires and get them to convert π€£
[0:02 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: But yes solving wealth disparity is not easy
[0:06 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: We are trying… and Singapore millionaires are very high percentage
[0:06 pm, 12/12/2022] +Frankie Wee: Millionaire life is easy in Singapore who don’t need work so hard
[0:07 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: So 10 people almost 1 Is millionaire
[0:07 pm, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Very true
Then if i bring up unfairness Education system here
Topic will divert LOL π
[0:10 pm, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Any issues
We must find the Actual ROOT CAUSE
The income inequality the root cause goes back to education system in Singapore..
But yeah
Who got time to analyse...and solve the issue ..
[0:56 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Drastically lowering BTO prices without regard for land costs will end up hurting S’poreans: Sim Ann
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/drastically-lowering-bto-prices-without-regard-for-land-costs-will-end-up-hurting-s-poreans-sim-ann
[0:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: Anyone with a 5 room will almost be a millionaire Liao. But what I meant was prob multi millionarie
[0:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: One mil doesn't get you very far now π€£
[0:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Errr millionaire is not consider that way….
[0:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: With the rate inflation is going , prob even less
[0:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: I dunno, so millionarie only consider liquid assets?
[0:59 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Owning the house unless is fully paid… value don’t count
[0:59 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Asset - Lability= more than $1 mil
[1:14 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Subjectivity vs Relativity vs Existential vs Historical
[1:26 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
My close friend comments:-
I think we should reset our children's expectations due to land scarcity. We (both gov and parents) should help them re-chart their life plans such that the first home is a 3-rm flat in non-mature estate. Priority to mature estate if they choose to live near their parents. Even higher priority if they live near to parents and parent in laws. Priority to bigger flats if they already have 2 or more children and/or living with parents who don't own any residential properties. If applying for bigger flats and in mature estates then all above priority rules apply.
We just have to be realistic. A simple reality check is, look around your area. Any empty, idle plots to build hdb flats? Then any old flats to demolish and subsequently rebuild? Where to relocate the residents who are living happily in these blocks.
There's just no easy solution.
[1:27 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Agree. Homes will cost the ceiling at the expense of space!
[1:43 pm, 12/12/2022] +Wai Xin: exactly what i did, my first home is a 3 room hdb resale... it is more important for us to advance in life stages
[2:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In response to requests for more details about development costs of BTO flats, MND and HDB shared information on how BTO flats were priced, as well as the development costs for the flats. HDB explained that the bulk of development costs – $3.167 billion – went into land costs while $2.077 billion went into building costs.
π¬ What are your views on the affordability and pricing of BTO flats in Singapore?
HDB assured Singaporeans that BTO flats were sold below cost as it cost HDB on average $396,000 to develop each of the new flats handed over to buyers in FY 2021 to 2022. Yet, HDB only collects an estimated $365,700 in sales proceeds per unit. HDB differentiated its pricing approach from private residential developers, which price for profit. …
[2:02 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: We are forced to accept the determined affordable price set by HDB.
[2:02 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: We hv no choice but to accept
[2:06 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Agree
[2:08 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. For example, my niece managed to get a 5 room BTO flat at woodland for about $400,000 over - near her husband parents.
2. A reasonable affordable price, and close to parents home.
In future, can take care of their children while both young couple work.
3. This is an ideal situation.
[2:09 pm, 12/12/2022] +Sam: Is there any statistics that those who snap up MOP flats are PRs? I would think that likely those elderly Singaporean who cash out from private and want money for retirement and a nice home are the one snapping it up. That's probably the reason government acted.
[2:11 pm, 12/12/2022] +Sam: Anyway not all PR are rich. And they are essential for nation building. Don't forget that some of our forefathers are also from somewhere .
[2:13 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: All of us are descendants from migrant π within 3 generations one of our grandparents can be trace back overseas
[2:14 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: We not stopping them from buying
[2:15 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: But there shd be a cap
[2:15 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: HDB PR can only buy one? No?
[2:19 pm, 12/12/2022] +Sam: Without grant for resale and BTO , you really think that you can make big money from buying HDB?
[2:20 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Don’t really earn… it is just normal inflation… π
Illusion that you earn…
[2:20 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: But in fact just your money, going through inflation.
[2:21 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Just that the amount is high so you feel it more
[2:21 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Noodle piece went up from $2 to $4 during the period…
[2:21 pm, 12/12/2022] +Sam: To me , it is more for saving on rental . Renting a whole flat is extremely expensive. We do not want to unnecessarily drive out the PR because they cannot afford to live in Singapore. And many of these PR are contributing hugely for Singapore. Eg. PR working in health care sector that we are not getting enough of our own citizen doing it
[2:25 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Those that go beyond buying 2nd pte pty onwards
[2:27 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: 12/12/22
To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members
The Futuristic Homes?
"Uncommon thinking...?"
- - anonymous
Imagining, the "Illinois" is a 'mile high' skyscraper with 528 storeys, it could accommodate up to 100,000 people and 15,000 car parking lots.
Reimagining, can Singapore build a 'quarter mile' tall public housing with 20,000 residents? Any risks (geological) and how about benefits (ecological)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illinois
- - in progress - -
[2:37 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/xnZjtR9z1qA
Our Distinguished Master Architect and former URA Chief Planner, Dr Liu Thai Ker.
[2:47 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
As for PR:-
Both my parents hold blue IC and then subsequently get their red ICs.
They produce offsprings like myself and my siblings - who all hold red ICs.
And we produce children who all hold red ICs.
Among us, my parents have produced the following for Singapore:- government scholar, civil servants, engineers, lawyer, doctor, sustainability professional, accountants, R&D etc.
[2:48 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Wonderful
[2:52 pm, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Seems many people unaware of Current situation
May be last time govt invited People to become PR or citizen
Now They have flooded with applications π
So Previous situation and current reality
Too much different
[2:54 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: So many kids arh lol
[2:55 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: My grandfather was a night soil carrier π, now I am a chemical engineer about same job π
[2:55 pm, 12/12/2022] +Sam: Flooded with applications is one thing, how many being accepted is another. The number of PRs or citizens being accepted is moderated
[2:55 pm, 12/12/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors
We’d love to hear more from you on today’s topic π
We hope that we can keep the discussion related to the topic robust and active!
Megan π
[2:55 pm, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: That i know very very well lol
[2:56 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Getting harder… many of friends phd or masters full scholarship from MOE also don’t get approval to get citizenship π
[2:56 pm, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: I am saying becz
No need to get scared that there will be less PRs in future if stop them buying HDB temporarily
[2:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Yes
[2:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Sometime I also don’t understand we give money for them to come… but they apply don’t keep them
[2:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: π
[2:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Then they were forced to leave as they want to have a family, but no citizenship is very expensive to have kids here
[2:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Health care sectors
Especially nurses many are not even PRs
Their children not getting local schools
So many issues
Frankly i wonder
Who is happy in Singapore π
[2:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Suma Pamu: Very trueπ₯
[3:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: 12/12/22
To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members
"Of Tides and Times"
Climate Change?
ONE example, over two decades, the MPA (Marine & Port Authority) has been meticulously tabling daily low and high tide from Tuas (west) to the Horsburgh Lighthouse (east) and into the Malacca Strait onto the Singapore strait.
Valuable?
These critical data of the tidal (Hi-Lo) and flows (stream) have been archived and going forward it will be a useful resource for future predictions of the unavoidable rising sea level.
Lessons:
Early plannings and data collections coupled with a responsible, reliable and continuing leaderships from the civil services to the governance.
Hope many people will see the great effort of our predecessors (never to forget them, please...) have given to us a more livable and stable country and importantly, it assures us that our lives and livelihoods are carefully taken care by many able and good hands, today and tomorrow!
It is that SIMPLE (or Complex), is the will, one previous generation passing onto the next generation and so on!
So important!
- - in progress - -
[3:04 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: ???
[3:04 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hello Uncle Law,... Merry Christmas to you and family!
[3:05 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Hihi
[3:05 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Merry Xmas to you and love ones
[3:05 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Sorry I catch no ball
[3:05 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Oh? You guys know each other?
[3:06 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Suma, ...
It an opportunity cost...
Thank you.
[3:06 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Ken, Merry Christmas to you and family too!
We are ONE chat mates....
Thank you.
[3:07 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: π€£
[3:07 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: π still early… but sure merry Christmas in advance
[3:07 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Luv that POSITIVE emoji!
Thank you.
[3:07 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: Likely that day not open as well
[3:08 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Not really lol
[3:08 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Yes chatgrp mates
[3:08 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Just in case, REACH gone for Xmas holidays after today's session?
[3:08 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Everyone is an honorable members!
[3:09 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Watch world cup in Qatar 2022 to catch the odds
[3:09 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hello Andrew, Merry Christmas to you and family!
Thank you.
[3:10 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Let's go back to our cup of tea...
Can a HDB home be priced as low as a small new car?
[3:11 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: π₯³π€©
[3:11 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Never
[3:11 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Another positive emoji!
Thank you!
[3:11 pm, 12/12/2022] +Ken: In our dreams… but if drop so low… current loans how? π«
[3:12 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: 2023 expect to be a difficult year so the country must come together as one.
[3:13 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Never say impossible!
What if the price of a future new small car costs almost 3 rm flat?
We are looking for that EQUALISER and equilibrium, this affordable Public housing and social issues.
[3:14 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Consider the various subsidies needed.
[3:15 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: What sorts of subsidy will you envision?
Pls shoot and we start the game at 0-0
[3:18 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Take into account the current various grants. For prices to be even lower than now, subsidies across all categories will have to be drastically increased.
[3:22 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Maybe HDB can tweak slightly on EHG
[3:22 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: π€·♂️
[3:23 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Going forward, incremental subsidy peg against the actual sales price of a given type of flat.
Present grants are tied from more to less, meaning a 3rm flat will enjoy the highest grant vs a 5rm flat. This measurement fits in the concept of affordability and utility.
Thank you.
[3:23 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Time will tell
[3:24 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: A general ball park household disposable income, 15%-20% spent on the mortgage of the home.
[3:25 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: For the 29th time, the prices of HDB have risen.
Predicting this upward trajectory persists into 2024?
[3:26 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: What if we are at the midpoint of a bull run, this case is housing for both public+ private?
[3:26 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Prices will rise and hope for subsidies to rise in tandem
[3:35 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: The concept of rationality and pricing.
The baseline probably prices for public housings will be affordable though it seems high and many may feel it is getting out of reach?
One decider, that is the planners, policymakers and stakeholders (Including developers and banks) will assess the yield curve vs the IR (borrowings) curve to derive a sustainable price break not just for public housing alone but also the private sectors including commercial and industrial uses.
In simpleton, it is a valid concern for members of the larger public to raise eyebrows on property prices!
What if one of the unavoidable cost of a PROGRESSIVE economy is rising prices of almost all necessities?
How then should households mitigate this first happiness that is SINGAPORE is once again a vibrant and relevant hot spot?
Alternatively, (counter arguments to Mr Leong, Mr Singh and many others on the opposite bench) Should SINGAPORE turn Cold? What are the harms and benefits?
Thank you.
[3:36 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
This means young couple will prefer not to have children or less children if more grants are given to smaller flat than bigger flat.
Is this the way to encourage young couple to have more children by penalising them than providing incentive for bigger flat so to encourage them to have more children?
[3:41 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Danni,
"Starts small and later on if needs arise then upgrade to a bigger one...?"
Happy?
There are living families with more than 5 children and yet they find ways and means. Importantly, are they happy or not so? Fact is, this family is as happy as the other family with no kid but with a lovely pet dog?
So where is that line of happiness?
Thank you.
[3:44 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Breeding more children need higher expenses - 1 disincentive.
2. Buying smaller flat and then shift - another disincentives.
So where is the incentive to have more children?
To encourage young couples with more children:-
1. Lower the expenses of young couples - with baby and children grants.
2. Provide higher grants to bigger flat - so that young couples can afford bigger flat to accommodate more children and sufficient space for dwellers to live happily.
[3:46 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: 12/12/22
Choice?
One can own a big and luxury car and at the same time owning a 4rm flat or an EC?
One can commute through MRT, taxi and at the same time owning a 5 rm flat or EC?
One can rent a flat and don't really care about the rising property prices?
One can choose to have a cute toy doggie, no marriage and no kid please?
So what is a choice?
- - in progress - -
[3:48 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I don't understand your logic.
More people need more space to study, to work, more rooms to stay.
Simple logic - not difficult to understand.
[3:49 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Small flat higher grants - wrong logic.
2. Bigger flat - higher grants - right logic.
[3:49 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Perhaps, using the 20-80 rule, that is a grant of 20% and the remaining on loan?
Two, will this rule help in an upward trajectory housing prices?
Three, are there other meaningful and powerful interventions READY to pour into these hot property markets?
[3:52 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: If one can afford a Ferrari, what's the issue with a $100k COE?
If one can afford a 5rm flat, what's the issue because these owners have the means to finance and afford these bigger sized flats.
Hope it makes a bit of a sense?
Thank you.
[3:52 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Job security is a factor no matter what one can afford.
[3:53 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Thank you, Andrew!
Jobs and CPF! Two Great enablers!
Thank you.
[3:54 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: A progressive society....
One BIG issue is SG has finite land!
[3:55 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Yes
[3:55 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Build VERTICAL CITY?
[3:56 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Leave the underground for. WATER, pipelines and micro NUCLEAR reactors (5 enough)
[3:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Enemies cannot bomb your DEEP underground micro nuclear units! Also prevent leakage too!
[3:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Believe underground is already in the works or already in progress quietly somewhere in Singapore
[3:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: The Underground City concept was once a loveable idea. However, this pandemic (future ones) makes this concept questionable?
[3:59 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Plot ratio?
[3:59 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Vertical has its various limits.
[4:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Frank Lloyd Wright vision of the mile high scraper...
Singapore sits on a granite bedrock...
One fear is earthquakes from Sumatra and KL valley basin...
[4:02 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: "Either you go underground or up up all the away...?"
- - anonymous
[4:03 pm, 12/12/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In response to requests for more details about development costs of BTO flats, MND and HDB shared information on how BTO flats were priced, as well as the development costs for the flats. HDB explained that the bulk of development costs – $3.167 billion – went into land costs while $2.077 billion went into building costs.
π¬ What are your views on the affordability and pricing of BTO flats in Singapore?
HDB assured Singaporeans that BTO flats were sold below cost as it cost HDB on average $396,000 to develop each of the new flats handed over to buyers in FY 2021 to 2022. Yet, HDB only collects an estimated $365,700 in sales proceeds per unit. HDB differentiated its pricing approach from private residential developers, which price for profit. …
[4:04 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: Maybe to combat the need for larger living spaces, we could see more co-working spaces available. People can then work remotely, but in a dedicated space (less distractions) and stay close to home.
[4:04 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: BTO flats are as affordable as can be, unless we reduce build quality which we shoudn't.
[4:06 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: Supply/Demand need to be maintained so as not to put resales into negative equity by over supply and not keep people waiting too long through lack of supply.
[4:07 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: Another option is to build more BTR - Build to Rent, and give people an option to live in larger space, or more quickly move out of home but not have to commit such a big sum of money.
[4:07 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: Maybe the BTR could be suited to people willing to share, as long as there is adequate space inside.
[4:08 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: Don't need the MoP restrictions for BTR which can be a problem for people if their work is a long way away.
[4:10 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: So, price and affordability are two different things. If we are OK with price, but it's not affordable for many, then are there scheme such as RTO, Rent to Own, when the purchase pays part rent part mortgage and the HDB retain some of the ownership (and equity) when the purchaser comes to sell.
[4:10 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: I'm not proposing these, just saying there are always ways to make the numbers work.
[4:12 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: BTR/RTO works because the monthly payments are reduced while capital is only partially paid off. The purchaser can increase monthly payments later, as their salary rises to pay off more capital.
[4:13 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Know what are the main reasons why young couple don't want to have more babies:-
1. BTO flat are getting smaller - not much space to accommodate more children.
2. No incentive to get bigger flat - because bigger flats cost more - grants for bigger flats lesser.
More grants for smaller flats.
So young couples are disincentivised to buy bigger flat and have more children.
1. Because producing more children - higher expenses - government don't lessen the burden of young couples to have more children.
2. BTO flats are getting smaller - and in fact not giving higher grants for young couples to buy bigger flats to accommodate more children.
Hence our population replacement level keep dropping.
The analogy of Ferrari, pack many people in one flat and be happy - don't make sense here.
[4:14 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Yes
[4:15 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Both ways have limitations
[4:22 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: One is enough?
One, family planning is a household budget.
Before child bearing comes, the first home is important.
Before buying the first home, it is best to count your monies and your job stability.
Before you decides to buy a bigger home, do count and see if it makes sense to build your first home, a bigger sized one.
Two, when your first kid is born or on the way, STARTS planning for a bigger place.
"It's ALWAYS smarter to start small because small bites always win...?"
[4:24 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Many young couples have start small and then stop.
That's why we have less citizens and more migrants.
[4:27 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Cost of livings...
One BIG game has changed, that is FREEDOM of Choice, not to be chained by long term commitments such as raising more children?
Go conduct a survey among our 20+ or youger gen...you will be enlightened by their concept of a "freeer and easier" life !
[4:36 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Does HDB encourage people to buy and sell and then buy again?
Doesn't HDB provide grant only once - that is get it right the 1st time?
[4:38 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So you are discouraging Singaporeans to have more children and have more migrants?
[4:38 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Your logic all get mess up.
[4:46 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Millennium generation citizens want regular hour jobs, high pay and benefits and 21 days annual leave minimum
. Must have time to chill after work, no work calls. So, dating and family take a backseat.
[4:52 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: Going the way to Europe
[4:56 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Results of overseas exposure to education and lifestyle
[4:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: I think it's a natural human progression
[4:57 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: The demographics have changed.
Perhaps the younger generations may not want more than one child?
Is not about logic nor discouraging to procreate given the fact of rising cost of livings too.
Things have changed.
[4:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: As pple get more educated and become more aware
[4:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: Expectations go up
[4:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Fulgrim: Even in China now, low end , backbreaking labour is getting shunned
[4:58 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: One changed attitude. Thank you!
[4:58 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
But what you propose - is to disincentivise more birth on the outset.
[4:59 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Also the logic of smaller flat higher grants and bigger flat smaller grants is a wrong logic
[5:00 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: How to incentivize TFR to 2.0?
Pls suggest, thank you.
[5:00 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
And your assumption that younger people want less children is not true - at least I can speak for my children.
[5:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: That's Good if this assumption is not correct.
[5:01 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
All your proposal is to disincentivise more babies.
Isn't it correct?
[5:05 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: 12/12/22
Valued, Value and Valuable?
After 1403, a Malay ruler rapidly transformed it from a sleepy fishing village to a center of world trade in less than a decade. In 1511, this dynamic trade hub fell to Portuguese invaders who attrited Malacca into the ground until the Dutch came by forced in 1641.
This historical perspective on Southeast Asia showed that there has always been another powerful (hegemonic) port city similar to Malacca.
The geographical locale and the maritime commerce destined that somewhere along the Malacca strait, one day, one city would eventually become the rising world center of the next global economic order.
Lessons:
Migration is one key significance of human civilisations. These movements (flows) of human comes with capital, trades and values that in total derived an important (valuable) location.
Regardless of race or religion, all immigrants came, went or settled down as time passed on till today Singapore is still one important point of connectivity to the rest of the world. How about tomorrow, will it become even more important or not so because Malacca would once again awaken to regain it's lost glorious days?
- - in progress - -
[5:06 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: The work done by the govt to provide not just affordable housing, but relatively high quality homes for its price (compared to public housing in other major cities globally) is laudable and an important part of nation building... However I think the govt should bite the bullet and communicate more forcefully that the policy is meant to provide housing and NOT to enrich the population or to provide a windfall.
Many of the disgruntled voices are from those who are expecting to make good profits from BTO sales as so many others have done so in the past. This is financially unsustainable and creates a dependent mindset among Singaporeans.
It'll be important to keep public the key stats on the affordability of public housing for accountability purposes... And perhaps to aim higher: how can we provide differentiated subsidies to help even the 10% who are spending more than 25% of monthly income on their mortgage to afford a home, without major compromises in other essential spend (e.g. insurance, education).
[5:08 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi JC, well said!
Helping more, those truly in need of owning a smaller flat. Afterall, a home is an important place for all humans!.
Thank you.
[5:12 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Isn't it true, when one disposable income goes up higher, one tends to consume more?
Isn't it true that if one can only afford to buy a 3rm flat, this family needs more Grant to UPLIFT them? All for a good purpose and a starting point.
Should the future (lucky) treat this family very well, perhaps they could upgrade to a larger home?
Isn't it true?
[5:14 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Worth upholding
[5:16 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Thank you, Andrew!
[5:20 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: In Singapore, life is already very comfortable - if anything, I think most govt subsidies should b blatantly channeled to support families with children as our low TFR is an existential threat to our long term national well being and the root of the many problems we will see in our society in the years ahead.
Give more directed subsidies to families with more children when buying 5 rm flats or upgrading from smaller to larger flats. Make it as ez as possible to start and raise born and bred SGreans family. Reject calls for fairness from singles/childless couples - policy spend should be for national benefit, not for personal gain. If TFR improve, these guys will benefit too.
Be a brave govt. Do the right thing and convince the people.
[5:22 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
This I support and make alot of sense.
[5:27 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi JC, logical!
Two or more children as a criteria to access more Grant to upgrade to a bigger flat?
Thank you
[5:27 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Work even harder to get reelected.
[5:28 pm, 12/12/2022] +Jimmy Chew: Buy flat but can't support children. The social problem. It like asking people to have kids that they May not want. Like asking couples to marry because their new flats are coming. They not ready to settle down
[5:30 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: I think majority of SGreans r reasonable. If u explain policies clearly and transparently (rather than trying to fudge like Indranee when saying housing cost breakdown is irrelevant - let the people decide what's relevant!) - trusting the public will understand the good intention, u can gain the public's trust.
[5:31 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: If a personal choice now if couple don't wish to have children amid rising cos to raise a child. Some go beyond 3 or 4 kids.
So perhaps more housing grants can be channelled to family nucleus with say 2 children or more, while reducing grants for those who don't wish to hv children
[5:31 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Jimmy, like your analogy.
ROM then booked a flat and finally separated? What's next and how?
Thank you.
[5:33 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi uncle Law, great answers from our Senior!
Thank you.
[5:33 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Make sense.
Except housing grants will have to be given incrementally with each baby born.
[5:33 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Danni, another great idea, logical!
Thank you.
[5:34 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Perhaps thru peer pressure, those who wish to hv children may rethink whether to try for one first
[5:34 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Yes agreed
[5:34 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: So we have generated good ideas...
Increase Grant according to the number of offspring (can be a young family) family has.
[5:36 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: How about the family disposable income as one of the considerations prior to increasing a Grant?
How many income earners in this family? Double or single?
[5:37 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Sounds like a MEANS TEST in the making?
[5:38 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: The details need to work out
[5:38 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: But direction shd be there
[5:38 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Else this chat can't close by 7pm
[5:38 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
A family could have high disposable income.
But the next round, retrenchment come - and no income.
Cannot finance the house.
[5:38 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: This is very hard to implement cos disposable income data isn't always true measure of ability to pay. Hard to draw the line where to give more or less subsidies.
Some people have high disposable income but also high dependents or has sick child/parent etc.
[5:39 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: Others have wealth from other sources even if income is low.
[5:39 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: If guided by overarching national need, I think number of kids is most simple and relevant to housing.
[5:39 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: If childless couple, need 5 rm flat for wat?
[5:40 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: That's life, for the future cannot be predicted.
Perhaps, be prudent and afford what one can afford !
"Small bites always avoid pitfalls!"
[5:40 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: Pang sai
[5:40 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: ?
[5:40 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: Correct
[5:43 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Hi JC, good thinking.
Seek help if such a situation arises whereby a big chunk of the disposable income goes towards maintaining a sick family member. Though there are some people who are shy to reveal their financial challenges till a bigger headache erupts...
Thank you.
[5:44 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: Means testing is practiced in healthcare and it can sometimes b quite demeaning and difficult for all parties involved.
[5:45 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: If u have financial prob cos ur father has gambling debts, might not be something u wanna discuss with a social worker.
[5:45 pm, 12/12/2022] +L or BL: Future planning, since can't sell for many years....
[5:45 pm, 12/12/2022] +JC: So pls. Don't do any means test for housing.
[5:46 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: What's worrying is ageing!
This unavoidable life journey will come, no escapement for all.
The needs for medical and living expenses will increase too.
How to earn an income as ageing goes on?
CPF may help to a certain extent unless the person has a long period of working and the salary is on the higher side.
[5:47 pm, 12/12/2022] +Uncle Law: proposal
First Timer HDB owner be it BTO or resale can only buy up to 4rm.
Shd they get a 2nd bto or resale,
No child/1 child, up to 3rm
2 children, no restrictions
[5:48 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Uncle Law, good ideas!
Prudent and needs over WANTS.
[5:51 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: IndraRajah!π
[5:52 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So a mean test for housing grants don't make sense because it is a long term financing obligation.
A mean test is only good at the time of buying.
But with the employment cycle so short, retrenchment so frequent - mean test to determine grants don't make sense.
[5:52 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: Cpf put up a article on sgnews sometime ago. Not many singaporeans have 500K in their account.
[5:53 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: 2 in 3 working Singaporeans do not have savings to last them beyond 6 months: OCBC survey
https://www.straitstimes.com/business/banking/2-in-3-working-singaporeans-do-not-have-savings-to-last-them-beyond-6-months-ocbc
[5:55 pm, 12/12/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
More retrenchments in Singapore’s tech sector, with 1,270 local workers affected since July.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/tech-sector-companies-retrench-layoff-local-workers-3105126
[5:56 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Disclaimer: Do your own checks.
[5:59 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: One gloomy analytics is that 'central bank' and all the central banks are in debt of up to $65 trillions. These dues will be progressively due in 2023.
[6:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: What is 1 trillion?
one million million
What is 1 billion?
one thousand million
[6:01 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: π³π€¦♂️ππ³
[6:02 pm, 12/12/2022] +Rama: One million, 6 zero. One billion, 9 zero. One trillion, 12 zero
[6:03 pm, 12/12/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In response to requests for more details about development costs of BTO flats, MND and HDB shared information on how BTO flats were priced, as well as the development costs for the flats. HDB explained that the bulk of development costs – $3.167 billion – went into land costs while $2.077 billion went into building costs.
π¬ What are your views on the affordability and pricing of BTO flats in Singapore?
HDB assured Singaporeans that BTO flats were sold below cost as it cost HDB on average $396,000 to develop each of the new flats handed over to buyers in FY 2021 to 2022. Yet, HDB only collects an estimated $365,700 in sales proceeds per unit. HDB differentiated its pricing approach from private residential developers, which price for profit. …
[6:04 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Grant of up to 20% as previously suggested months ago.
This maximum Grant shall be given to the needy families. One with 4 more members and two, their incomes are marginal.
[6:12 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: Set a timeline to evaluate the necessary adjustments (increase) in the price of new flats.
What this means is to stabilise the sales price of new flats over a period of 3 years.
Any unintended outcomes?
[6:45 pm, 12/12/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
[6:59 pm, 12/12/2022] +Smiley face: 12/12/22
To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members
"Either you go underground or up up all the away...?"
- - anonymous
There is no quick solutions to this existing housing and pricing issues.
Value?
Value- It a highly complex and inter-related ecosystem of any country. The interactions of supply and demand will create values. By carefully planned increase in the public/private housing supplies, property prices may appreciate over a longer period of time than a continuous surge in prices within a short span of months?
For policymakers and buyers, the abilities to 'better read' the markets will be beneficial because HDB or a property developer will not under-build or over-build, it also helps to deter speculative behaviors or unrational purchase of properties with no prior careful considerations for needs and affordability.
Wishful thinking, only if many things in life are FOC, how beautiful it would become?
Can a HDB home be priced as low as a small new car?
How to find more land to build housings, facilities, amenities and other economic uses?
Valuables?
"Repurpose central catchment areas, reservoirs, parks, schools, Mindef camps & lands and all roads?"
- - anonymous
Can we consolidate and close some army camps or free up land in Mandai and/or Lim Chu Kang areas?
If the car population continues to decline by 2035 whereby the main means of public transportation will be MRT/buses (reimagining over 6 million daily rides). Perhaps some smaller and least used roads can be used for mixed development purposes.
Can the future "reservoir" be underground?
How about the future Micro Nuclear plants being underground too (100m or deeper)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illinois
- - in progress - -
[7:00 pm, 12/12/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
=====
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