REACH 415 - What are your views on the repeal and constitutional amendment passed in Parliament? How can we accommodate different values in our society without discrimination to any party?
(SK)
30 Nov 2022 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:46 am, 30/11/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
Welcome back! π
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Megan π
[10:00 am, 30/11/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
The Parliament has voted to repeal Section 377A in the Penal Code, while making a constitutional amendment to protect the definition of marriage against legal challenges yesterday.
In his concluding speech for the debate, Law and Home Affairs Minister K. Shanmugam said that the Government will protect the heterosexual marriage as a key institution in our society and that his ministry was looking at ways to deal with harm caused by cancel culture.
π¬ What are your views on the repeal and constitutional amendment passed in Parliament? How can we accommodate different values in our society without discrimination to any party?
Social and Family Development Minister Masagos Zulkifli also added that Singapore’s education policies and curriculum remains anchored on prevailing family values and social norms.
Highlights from the report are as follows:
π Singapore passes laws to decriminalize gay sex, protect definition of marriage against legal challenge
π "Right time and right thing to do - Repeal of Section 377A"
In his opening speech at the debate, Minister K. Shanmugam stressed that it was both the right time - as well as the right thing to do - to repeal Section 377A. He also added his case that there was serious consideration that future courts may strike down Section 377A laws if left unattended.
πhttps://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/parliament-repeals-section-377a-endorses-amendments-protecting-marriage-definition
πhttps://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/shanmugam-377a-repeal-courts-government-3106531
-----
[10:03 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Glad to see the repeal went through, a step towards a more inclusive, celebratory country. I do think Religion should be separated from Legislation, and MPs who say they voted based on their Religious beliefs sets a bad precedent. It's extraordinary to read how many MPs suddenly say they have "Many Friends in the LGBT community" but equally say they don't think they should be granted equal rights in the wider community. Perhaps one day Singapore can look at a new option for same-gender couples that give them better protection in the law, without having to change the definition of marriage.
[10:05 am, 30/11/2022] +Singapore Maid Agency: Lol then why are they separating the ppl who never jab
[10:05 am, 30/11/2022] +Singapore Maid Agency: Doesn’t make any sense to me
[10:06 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: ?
[10:09 am, 30/11/2022] +Thomas or TD: Good move. Especially the protection of the definition of marriage.
[10:18 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: About time. Cannot comprehend in this day and age what two people door behind closed doors is an offence.
[10:28 am, 30/11/2022] +Big Cannon Fairy: Debating this is a waste of time and Money. IF ppl like each other and do it. What can you do ? IF it harm GDP , then you should not go ahead . even go ahead , juts state not encourage but do as u please. IF it presuure by other country , then should it the Realtionship manager to mange and reason out. If due to those Companies, then should not even need to care and influence by them . A simple logic not sure why a big fuss about it .
[10:31 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Sorry, I disagree. I think religious beliefs and cultural beliefs are core to many. As are non-religious/atheistic ones. We must not and cannot discriminate based on faith or non faith, as matters of family and relationships are very core to many. My 2 cents lah.
[10:31 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: I think this issue has been spoken about in many circles with different views. I just hope we will learn to live and let live.
[10:33 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: I respect core values, and appreciate that some cannot vote against their religious beliefs, in which case they should abstain.
[10:34 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: I'm very happy that in Singapore we are not subject to the same system that we see in other countries like Iran right now.
[10:35 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Still, as the law society president said recently, any religion can say it is wrong but not common law.
[10:35 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Yes
[10:35 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Yes
[10:37 am, 30/11/2022] +Tan Kay Eng: i agree with Grace although i am a free thinker. Since "L" believe in a more inclusive society, why penalised those MP who voted against it? shouldn't be everyone is entitle to their opinion/belief???π€π€
[10:39 am, 30/11/2022] +Thomas or TD: Because of the inherent hypocrisy of the LBGTQ movement. Only their view is correct. If you oppose them on any grounds you're bigoted and etc etc etc
Can't stand them
[10:41 am, 30/11/2022] +Tan Kay Eng: π somehow I have the same feel as you. Please proof me wrong
[10:46 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: To the person who laughed - can you clarify?
[10:47 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Such behaviour is not civil or nice. It is why many don't like to engage in such conversations.
[10:56 am, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Natural union for marriage is one man and one woman, which links to natural way of reproduction. As much as I don't disagree that some in the community have differences, I don't agree that more support should goes to them, for example public housing.
HDB has joint Singles Scheme for these grp, although min age is 35yo.
[10:57 am, 30/11/2022] +Evangeline: Agree. I think we should be able to have proper civil discourse without mocking or laughing at a view. Religion is part of a persons life, and inherent for many. It shapes one’s worldview growing up so this cannot be ignored or brushed aside.
[10:57 am, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Ultimately government schemes or policies should still gear towards natural union of marriage
[10:57 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Definitely not Iran (with only 1 type of Islam that dominates)
But not current China either (Communism, anti-religion).
Singapore is multi-religious and having lived in different parts of the world, I appreciate our diversity.
[10:57 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: I think the difference is that they are law makers, which means their secular view is then imposed on all of society. It's not a decision based on evidence or fact, it's a decision based on emotion.
[10:58 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Likewise
[10:58 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Also, I'm not suggesting an MP should be penalised, rather just abstain.
[10:58 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Sorry, this is an assertion. Are you saying religion/non religion is emotion?
[10:58 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: I think we have to be careful here...
[10:58 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Likewise
[10:59 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Yes
[10:59 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: @BL To dismiss a deeply held study of faith or non-faith as "emotion" is quite problematic.
[10:59 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: In any group there are louder voices, that can be intimidating, and annoying for others. Just as I wouldn't tarnish a whole Religious group, or Sports Fans, or Drinkers, or Race with the bad behaviour of some, nor should you.
[10:59 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Perhaps you meant something else?
[11:00 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Apologies if that's a poor term to use. Is there a better one?
[11:01 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Yes I think I did mean something else. Poor choice of word.
[11:02 am, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. Universal Law - Order of Nature.
Male reproductive system and Female Reproductive system - allows the production of offsprings and the continuation of human civilization.
a. Hence it is the legitimate sexual union, formation of family units and it carry the torch of continuation and existential human civilization based on science.
b. If sexual union not based on science - not conform to the order of nature - ie. Union of wrong reproductive system - that lead to termination of human civilization - then the sexual union is not wholesome.
2. Culture, religious belief if anchor on, conform and proven by science - then adhering to culture and religious belief - has no contradiction.
[11:02 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: https://theindependent.sg/k-shanmugam-homosexuality-might-be-a-sin-in-some-religions-but-not-every-sin-is-a-crime/
[11:02 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: If I may humbly suggest, I think we are multi-religious (with faith/no faith/etc) and I think it is based on many sacred texts that are venerated through the ages - Sutra, Koran, Bible, Torah etc.
Many of these are from faiths are from thousands of years of study and scholarism. Definitely not emotion only lah. Pls correct me if I am wrong. Thx
[11:02 am, 30/11/2022] +Timothy Low: Personally I feel that party whip should be lifted so that each MP can represent the majority sensing of their constituency
[11:02 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Agree
[11:03 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: https://www.google.com/search?q=how+should+i+define+religion%2C+is+it+an+emotion%3F&rlz=1C1CHBF_enSG893SG893&oq=how+should+i+define+religion%2C+is+it+an+emotion%3F&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l2.8040j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
[11:03 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Not with the ruling party
[11:03 am, 30/11/2022] +Thomas or TD: Please show me a non offensive one then.
In their case I am more than happy to hit the whole boat with the broom.
[11:04 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: ππ³π
[11:04 am, 30/11/2022] +Timothy Low: Haha I can tell some PAP MPs a bit relectuant to vote for the appeal
[11:04 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Yes
[11:04 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Yes, makes sense.
[11:05 am, 30/11/2022] +Timothy Low: But will be good to have different voices - after all we are a democratic country
[11:05 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Religion is holistic. Emotions are part of it.
But to say a person of faith is just "emotional", I think cannot lah :)
[11:06 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Anw, thank you, @BL, for clarifying. I appreciate it :)
[11:06 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Btw I am someone who struggles with faith. I appreciate learning from all faiths. Just some background.
[11:07 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Faith definitely has a place, I'm sure of that.
[11:08 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Some might say that's quite an offensive reply... clearly what's offensive to one isn't to another. Perhaps the earlier suggestion to live and let live, not impose on others, and try to see the best in people is a good approach.
[11:09 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Yep
[11:10 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: We alr very stressed in SG, learning to live harmoniously can start by not laughing at others or mocking..
[11:10 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: I think it is very hard to have civil discourse if any side is not open minded
[11:10 am, 30/11/2022] +Wai Xin: or we can all laugh a little more at ourselves π
[11:11 am, 30/11/2022] +Thomas or TD: Validating my earlier point.
Typical twisted LBGTQ logic when they're trying to push their agenda and then screaming live and let live on the other hand.
[11:12 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: For minor matters, sure.
But to laugh at valid points shows childish behaviour and it is off-putting.
[11:14 am, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Dispel or no dispel, I don't see any difference. The main community don't disregard them as not part of community, I think is they themselves wants to make it lawful to be accepted by community.
[11:15 am, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: We recognize their difference in sexual orientation
[11:15 am, 30/11/2022] +Liangwei: We may wish to aspire towards:
1) Think along the lines of Value Propositions. The proposition can be religious origin, activist origin, interest group origin etc. But to put forward as a value proposition for consideration n discussion in the common space. We try not to shut down something too quickly just because it comes from an origin that we are unfamiliar with
2) Live n let live can be a baseline. But too much of it may lead to not letting ideas come forward and be debated and our overall ability to function as a society may drop
[11:15 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: What agenda is being pushed here? Be nice to people.... you don't like that?
[11:17 am, 30/11/2022] +Wai Xin: my view is that 377A had long been a legal problem because it mostly cannot be enforced and AG had already said they won't police two consenting adult.
it also single out sexual acts between two males as the target which itself goes against the concept of everyone being equal before law. (might even be unconstitutional to begin with)
thus the striking down of the section based on technicalities have long been justified (thus AP Tommy Koh had kept advocating them to strike it down)
as for constitutional amendments, I felt it was an overkill. I look up to the constitution as the fundamental law that protects us from slavery, in our rights to having regular elections, having a clear definitions to the structure of governance.
but marriage matters in the constitution? I don't know.. it might turn out to be Bukit Panjang LRT of the future (aka the mistakes of the past government)
[11:20 am, 30/11/2022] +Ah Heng: but did anyone why only 377a applies to guys ?
[11:20 am, 30/11/2022] +Ah Heng: hahaha sorry just curious
[11:20 am, 30/11/2022] +Ah Heng: it should had been apply to the females gender as well
[11:21 am, 30/11/2022] +Ah Heng: but now at this stage ... is up to govt to make their final decision
[11:22 am, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Sexual penetration is by artificial means so not applicable for 377A
[11:23 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Sorry, I disagree. They don't go around saying "be nice to people".
[11:24 am, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: This is quite unacceptable.
[11:27 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Some do, some don't. Same as any organised Secular Group. ISIS and Taliban weren't known for tolerance. Do we accuse all religions of being like them?
[11:27 am, 30/11/2022] +Wai Xin: if i remember correctly it was created in the colonial times to stop british officers from preying on little boys.. so we inherited it in our penal code
[11:28 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: It's sad if people want to draw lines and fuel conflict between groups of opposing ideals.
[11:29 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: So I think it is not fair to say all they do is go around saying "be nice to people". There must be recognition of the realities on the ground.
[11:29 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Look at what happened to J K Rowling for simply stating this.
[11:30 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Learning, listening and understanding are healthy. Of course if people are oppressive they should be dealt with, no matter what they beleive.
[11:30 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Yes, agreed. That seemed crazy to me, the way she was treated, and not just her.
[11:32 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Clearly there is a nasty group of people in the LGBT community, just as there are in many communities. Just saying we can't tarnish all with the same brush, and can't be distracted from the principle of the community because then a small number of people can derail the whole point.
[11:32 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Anw I think we are all sound people who just want peace and harmony. Just as we have space to agree/disagree, we must have space for proper civil dialogue. My view.
[11:32 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: 100% agree
[11:32 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Yep
[11:33 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Problem is when they rally a mob to cancel others by saying "homophobic" or "transphobic" or "bigot" etc
[11:33 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Then how leh?
[11:33 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Yes, they are being just as nasty as the people they are protesting against.
[11:34 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Behaviour change and attitude change comes from understanding and education, not oppression.
[11:34 am, 30/11/2022] +Frankie Wee: Same sex is out of love has no meaning uphold families
[11:35 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Erm, are you saying the people they are protesting against are always nasty?
[11:35 am, 30/11/2022] +Thomas or TD: And the best part of this is that these jokers have never been held accountable for their actions.
And now they wonder why people tar their whole community with the same brush
[11:35 am, 30/11/2022] +Thomas or TD: their own doing
[11:35 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: I think J K Rowling made a fair point but was harrassed and vilified
[11:35 am, 30/11/2022] +Frankie Wee: I believe every family is disappointed that their turn out same sex
[11:35 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: lol, no didn't mean that.
[11:36 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Lol ok. Wanna clarify?
[11:36 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: I don't think they are protesting against all people, only people who are trying to vilify them.
[11:37 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: So, anyone who opposes them are "nasty"?
[11:37 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: opposition is not the same as vilify
[11:37 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: So how can one oppose without being seen to vilify?
[11:37 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Honest qn
[11:38 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: By intelligent debate and clear points of view, not resorting to name calling and legal penalties.
[11:39 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: If I was LGBT and paying my taxes that are used to fund the police to arrest me for something that is not hurting anyone, I might feel quite upset.
[11:40 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: If people called me "digusting" and other offensive terms, I might be quite upset.
[11:40 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: So based on this, she was still cancelled by an LGBT mob (again, not all are like that, but enough to make it an issue). I think that is what we cannot have in our small country.
[11:40 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Who cancelled her?
[11:42 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: There was a lot of fuss about what she said, but it's nonsense that she should be silenced and her books, films taken away. Whoever made that choice (if that did happen) they are the people to ask why they did it? It shoudl be OK for JK to say what she thinks and for people to respond.
[11:43 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: The problem seems to be that there is a wider vilification of people stating their opinion, and the problem with 'Free Speech" (which isn't free at all, and reserved for the wealthy mostly).
[11:44 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Personally, I avoid much of these conversations with friends and in the media. Obviously here it's today's topic so I've engaged π
[11:45 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Yes, I recall she got nasty response. Not sure what being 'cancelled' meant?
[11:45 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Dave Chappelle was also targeted I remember.
[11:45 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Yea me too. Let's just have a good day lah. I have to join a meeting now. Have a nice day fellas.
[11:46 am, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Me too! See you π
[11:46 am, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Dunno.. too many to follow..
[0:14 pm, 30/11/2022] +Noraini: LGBT destroy society as history has shown again & again
[0:30 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: That's why our government is secular
[0:35 pm, 30/11/2022] +Timothy Low: Source?
[0:47 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
When religions can be proven or reinforced by science - then religions are science.
[0:48 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
https://www.indy100.com/science-tech/scientists-created-mini-black-hole-2658785515
Scientists created a mini black hole and it started radiating.
Scientists has also created artificial sun in a lab.
Theoretically scientists can create a universe in the lab.
[0:48 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Scientists Want to Create a Universe in a Lab, And They Actually Could
It is scientifically possible.
https://futurism.com/scientists-may-create-universe-actually-could
[0:48 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Was Our Universe Created in a Laboratory?
Developing quantum-gravity technologies may elevate us to a “class A” civilization, capable of creating a baby universe.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/was-our-universe-created-in-a-laboratory/
[1:32 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Each human is composed of 50 trillions cells, into a physical form
[1:35 pm, 30/11/2022] +Ken: Think long after we die π€£π€£
[1:35 pm, 30/11/2022] +Ken: Don’t think will get to see it anytime soon
[1:35 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So science has proven the following :-
1. Form arises from Emptiness. Emptiness is form.
(Form = Universe) (Emptiness = Mind Mental States).
2. Multiple Universes can exist - specifically Multi-verses
3. Any humans with the right formula can create a Universe.
[1:37 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
4. Universes are Beginningless and Endless.
[1:37 pm, 30/11/2022] +Ken: Cheating spouse is a sin not a crime.. π€£
Overeating is a sin by not a crime
Being greedy with money is a sin not a crime the list goes one
[1:44 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
5. Creation of universe - transcend space and time - when a baby universe is created in a lab.
[1:49 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
6. Human mental states and physical states can exist in a multiverses - when a baby universe is created in a lab - transcending space and time.
[1:53 pm, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: If Society was destroyed, how are we all still here?
[1:54 pm, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Interestingly Science is really only interested in Disproving. Science is a process of testing theories, based on evidence, until they have no other explanation. But even then Scientist concede it's the best we know right now until somehow it is disproved.
[2:00 pm, 30/11/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
The Parliament has voted to repeal Section 377A in the Penal Code, while making a constitutional amendment to protect the definition of marriage against legal challenges yesterday.
In his concluding speech for the debate, Law and Home Affairs Minister K. Shanmugam said that the Government will protect the heterosexual marriage as a key institution in our society and that his ministry was looking at ways to deal with harm caused by cancel culture.
π¬ What are your views on the repeal and constitutional amendment passed in Parliament? How can we accommodate different values in our society without discrimination to any party?
Social and Family Development Minister Masagos Zulkifli also added that Singapore’s education policies and curriculum re…
[2:12 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Yes
[2:17 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
I support the following :-
1. Creation of Article 156 - is structured to give effect to protect laws and policies based on the heterosexual definition of marriage.
This Constitutional amendment shields against 'creative arguments' challenging definition of marriage --- is particularly reassuring to ensure heterosexual marriage - that conform to the Universal Law - Order of Nature for Procreation (in which reproductive system of Male and Female to produce offsprings based on Science) and formation of family unit is protected and enshrined - to ensure the existence and continuation of human civilisation.
I applaud the foresight and wisdom of the Government in this Constitutional amendment.
2. Upholding the Universal Law - Order of Nature for Procreation - based on science - to ensure the proper formation of a family unit that make up the backbone of the Society and the Country --- to ensure continuation of population replacement and all the policies associated with it.
3. Repeal of 377A that criminalise same sexual union of consenting adults in their private space - that cannot be enforced.
[2:21 pm, 30/11/2022] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
How can we accommodate different values in our society without discrimination to any party?
It should be based on the following attributes :-
1. Wisdom based on Science, Facts and Knowledge - the WQ (Wisdom Quotient) that encompass IQ, pragmatism and common sense.
2. Compassion to embrace Mutual Inclusiveness.
3. Selfless - whereby solutions and policies should not only accomodate self-interest, but should also include National Interest and the Interest of Others.
[3:29 pm, 30/11/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors
We want to HEAR MORE from you!
What are your views on the repeal and constitutional amendment passed in Parliament? How can we accommodate different values in our society without discrimination to any party?
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan π
[4:00 pm, 30/11/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
The Parliament has voted to repeal Section 377A in the Penal Code, while making a constitutional amendment to protect the definition of marriage against legal challenges yesterday.
In his concluding speech for the debate, Law and Home Affairs Minister K. Shanmugam said that the Government will protect the heterosexual marriage as a key institution in our society and that his ministry was looking at ways to deal with harm caused by cancel culture.
π¬ What are your views on the repeal and constitutional amendment passed in Parliament? How can we accommodate different values in our society without discrimination to any party?
Social and Family Development Minister Masagos Zulkifli also added that Singapore’s education policies and curriculum re…
[5:10 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: I think one important way to accommodate different views in our society is to refrain from name-calling and labels that add to social divisiveness. People should be free to share their views respectfully and be curious to listen to and better understand the other side. Labelling shuts down discourse and our society is poorer for that.
[5:10 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Yeah
[5:13 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: It's also not helpful to say that the speeches in Parliament are 'pitting' one camp against another. It's about both sides sharing views. Not helpful to use terminology like that.
[5:14 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Restraints shows on the faces of the parliamentarians
[5:14 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Yes I agree. But quite a few of them are being criticised by LGBTQ sites right now. I actually feel sorry for them.
[5:15 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: The price of being a politicians
[5:18 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Well, such criticisms can extend to ordinary citizens too. We must do our best to keep discourse vibrant and convince with our words and reasoning, not with name-calling and labels. :)
[5:20 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Lgbtq+ are known to be very vocal against those who don't see eye to eye with them!
[5:21 pm, 30/11/2022] +Timothy Low: Not all, that's generalisation on your part too
[5:22 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: You haven't met them face to face.
[5:23 pm, 30/11/2022] +Timothy Low: Actually i have a few LGBT friends who doesn't careless with the appeal
[5:23 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: A minority
[5:23 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: You mean repeal? That's true. I know LGBT friends who don't care too, and say they are making too big a deal of this.
[5:24 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: @Rama Chandran Andrew I think it's the vocal activists you're referring to. They may or may not be from the LGBTQ community. Lots of straight allies too.
[5:24 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Possibly
[5:25 pm, 30/11/2022] +Jimmy Chew: They should not imposed allow time to change the society just like alcohol and marijuana in the US. Let's live in harmoniously and ensure full happiness and prosperity for all
[5:25 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Agree.
[5:25 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Difficult to measure
[5:26 pm, 30/11/2022] +Jimmy Chew: Same here
[5:26 pm, 30/11/2022] +Timothy Low: Yes yes. Typo on my part
[5:27 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Examples of unhelpful name-calling and labelling
[5:29 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: @jimmy chew @Timothy Low the fact that we all know LGBTQ friends who don't care whether 377A is repealed also shows that there is a whole spectrum of LGBTQ folks out there. The narrative pushed by activists that all LGBT folks are pushing for repeal is simply not true. In fact, I even know LGBTQ friends who prefer for 377A not to be repealed.
[5:30 pm, 30/11/2022] +Thomas or TD: I see way more name calling and stirring from the LBGTQ crowd and their associates than from without.
Makes it hard to even want to listen to their views after a while.
[5:30 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Agree.
[5:30 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Again, I don't want to generalise and say LGBTQ crowd. I would say LGBTQ activists. 'Cos we've just shown that we know LGBTQ friends who are not pushing for repeal, and neither are they engaging in the name-calling and labelling. :)
[5:31 pm, 30/11/2022] +Thomas or TD: Agree. Activists then. But the point holds though.
[5:31 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Many of my LGBT friends just want to get on with life, and stay away from the activism.
[5:39 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: 30 November, 2022
“Where, after all, do universal human rights begin? In small places, close to home – so close and so small that they cannot be seen on any maps of the world. Yet they are the world of the individual person; the neighbourhood he lives in; the school or college he attends; the factory, farm or office where he works. Such are the places where every man, woman and child seeks equal justice, equal opportunity, equal dignity without discrimination. Unless these rights have meaning there, they have little meaning anywhere. Without concerned citizen action to uphold them close to home, we shall look in vain for progress in the larger world.”
- - Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady, United States
“To those who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, let me say: You are not alone. Your struggle for an end to violence and discrimination is a shared struggle. Any attack on you is an attack on the universal values the United Nations and I have sworn to defend and uphold. Today, I stand with you, and I call upon all countries and people to stand with you, too.” - - - Ban Ki-Moon, Former UN Secretary General
[5:42 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: ?
[5:47 pm, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Why share this and give them a voice?
[5:48 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: just highlighting examples of name calling and labelling.
[5:48 pm, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: There will always be people who create problems and disturbance. Human nature. It doesn't help to keep fueling the fire.
[5:49 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/4ZovrWFKJhM
[5:49 pm, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: They are bullies basically. And bullies are best left ignored.
[5:49 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: i’m not fueling the fire. I’m just sharing examples to illustrate the point I’m making. ‘Cos we will be seeing more of that, and it’s good to be aware.
[5:49 pm, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Ok
[5:50 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Well, I suspect we will be seeing more and more
of these. How do we prepare ourselves? Our children?
[5:53 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: It's all about people (δ»₯δΊΊδΈΊζ¬)!
"Fear no,..."
[6:00 pm, 30/11/2022] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
The Parliament has voted to repeal Section 377A in the Penal Code, while making a constitutional amendment to protect the definition of marriage against legal challenges yesterday.
In his concluding speech for the debate, Law and Home Affairs Minister K. Shanmugam said that the Government will protect the heterosexual marriage as a key institution in our society and that his ministry was looking at ways to deal with harm caused by cancel culture.
π¬ What are your views on the repeal and constitutional amendment passed in Parliament? How can we accommodate different values in our society without discrimination to any party?
Social and Family Development Minister Masagos Zulkifli also added that Singapore’s education policies and curriculum re…
[6:02 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Medical drugs legal in Thailand and soon Malaysia will not work here.
[6:03 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Government and law will step in
[6:08 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: 30 November, 2022
WHAT IF?
After all, (Bi)homosexuality is part of the human species.
Could this sexuality issue be due to biological and/or genetic sequencing that cannot be controlled or prevented or corrected?
It's painful! Hope everyone can have abit of empathy and some compassion towards many (in)tangibles.
- - in progress - -
[6:14 pm, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Ultimately, sexual behaviour is as free or as loose as one decides
[6:14 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Good point
[6:17 pm, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Just like porn, it is illegal symbolically but it is there if you search for it.
Sexual drive is natural and healthy. But loose sexual practices (in all forms) should not suddenly be ok just because "aiya, I got urges lah".
I hope we continue to see each other with respect and boundaries. Decorum and kindness is always timeless.
[6:21 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Grace, well said!
Being extreme is always unhealthy...
Thank you.
[6:23 pm, 30/11/2022] +Grace: My personal take is, before the western style of activism became quite loud in SG, we were all actually quite harmonious on many contentious issues.
It is a sad thing to see name calling and outright hatred from some voices.
We need moderation and calm. Singapore alr v stressed lah!! π
[6:30 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Grace, to add on...
For so long, this "sexual phenomena" existed from the Chinese classics of the Dream of the Red Chember (ηΊ’ζ₯Όζ’¦) to Leonardo Da Vinci...it happened long ago!
Thank you.
[6:30 pm, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Yes, Socrates and Plato were said to have had a bunch of young boys...
[6:30 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Yes, and my concern is that with the repeal, the activism will only increase.
[6:31 pm, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Women had not much status then. Only for child rearing etc.
[6:31 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Well...
[6:32 pm, 30/11/2022] +L or BL: Maybe the opposite?
[6:32 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Social class and caste system
[6:33 pm, 30/11/2022] +Grace: That is why the institution of marriage protects women and children. They can get alimony and so on to protect them if things go awry.
So women are not just seen as a "womb to rent". Ultimate objectification.
[6:33 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: I support this
[6:33 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Big Jackpot! Well worded!
Thank you, Grace!
[6:37 pm, 30/11/2022] +Grace: https://youtu.be/42ivIRd9N8E
[6:38 pm, 30/11/2022] +Grace: Saw this from a friend I actually disagree with. But it is quite a stark reminder why we don't wanna become like some other countries..
[6:44 pm, 30/11/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
[6:45 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: I don’t think so. There are already calls to educate MPs, society, children towards pro-LGBT causes and attempts to normalise LGBT relationships and introduce same sex marriage. This is not going away anytime soon.
[6:46 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: Agree we don’t want to become like this. After awhile, it really loses all common sense and reason. π
[6:47 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: One enabler to level up between woman and man is Education, job opportunities and society as a whole accepting that women can contribute, do big things and especially at crucial moments trend to be calmer than the other half!
[6:48 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Anyway no policies will suit everyone or please everyone. We just need to exercise restrain when dealing with sensitive issues. Whether being accepted or not at the end of day, since you choose or you have choice, somehow you have to learn to live with it.
Being too vocal or aggressive, will only bring down the reputation of your group. Be calm, I'm sure you would be accepted by the community.
[6:50 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Uncle Law,. Well said!
Sensible and logical!
Thank you.
[6:53 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Education syllabus in public schools must nit change!
[6:55 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: As what grace has said, I totally agree with her. It is already stressful living in Singapore amid the rising inflation and cost.
Let's keep calm and end the year on a high note.
[6:55 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Agree
[6:55 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: 30 November, 2022
The point is, in the 10,000 years history of all human civilizations, perhaps the following quote is the key?
"If one lost the peoples' hopes (trust), one will loose it all!" ("ε€±ζ°εΏθ ，倱倩δΈ!")
- - anonymous
- - in progress - -
[6:55 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Yes
[6:56 pm, 30/11/2022] +Khuan Yew: PM Lee already announced the repeal of 377A during the National Day Rally. The repeal by Parliament was just going through the process and whatever debates there were, it made no difference because the outcome was already decided since the PAP did not lift the party whip.
The constitutional amendment to include marriage does not do much for supporters of marriage between a man and woman because the PAP could decide in future again to change the definition of marriage to include same sex marriage. All it has to do is not to lift the party whip and it takes only 50% to change the definition of marriage.
[6:56 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Andrew!
[6:56 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Everyone here their own views, we should respect that.
And it is gracious of everyone who contribute their views and feedbacks.
Mainly because we hope to see things improve and live in a harmonious environment.
[6:57 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Good evening
[6:57 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: A difficult road lies ahead.
[6:57 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: I'm sure.
[6:57 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Last year NDP song would suit the mood here
[6:57 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Always tough! That's life...
Cheers!
[6:57 pm, 30/11/2022] +Rama: Agree
[6:58 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: https://youtu.be/II_5jBaYmGQ
[6:58 pm, 30/11/2022] +Uncle Law: Sharing in case you are finding it
[6:58 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: Thank you, Uncle Law!
Idea Building more ideas...
[6:59 pm, 30/11/2022] +Khuan Yew: The argument that Minister of Law gives that 377A could be struck down by the law doesn’t seem to be the real reason. It is perhaps that society’s view has shifted and the government wants to follow that. Which means the marriage definition could be changed if the government decides to do so.
[7:00 pm, 30/11/2022] +Smiley face: 30 November, 2022
To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members
"It's about human to human interactions. It's not about male or female."
- - anonymous
People works?
It's all about people (δ»₯δΊΊδΈΊζ¬)! How can we focus on people as the centre of lives then cultures and beliefs. Perhaps, this "People" way is the key in unlocking many unsolved social challenges, inequalities and clash of race and/or religion. Only if this world adopts a people theme may all of mankind laying-off their preferences (stigma) over others and look upon each other as human being - one kind!
Discrimination Laws, next?
Are there existing employment laws on workplace discrimination based on gender "identity" alone, this instance is the LGBT workers?
What are the parameters of proving if discrimination does happens, are there laws or so far none?
Should the Policymakers and stakeholders discuss and implement a code for discriminations at work or during the hiring process?
Is it enforceable or not easy to proof and apprehend any unfair practises, insensitivity remarks towards co-workers or insulting others at the workplace?
Are we potentially opening a new can of complaints, litigations and settlements?
- - in progress - -
[7:00 pm, 30/11/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
[7:00 pm, 30/11/2022] +Maverick: it will be a difficult road ahead indeed. but let us all play our part to bring sense, reason and respectfulness to the debates. let us call out name calling and labelling. let us continue to cherish the time tested institution of man woman marriage
=====
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