REACH 307 - What are your views on the policies that aim on building an inclusive society in Singapore, such as the Bill on maintenance of racial harmony and the amendments to the Women’s Charter? How can we play our part to build a stronger, more harmonious and inclusive society? (SK)
10 Jan 2022 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[10:43 am, 10/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
Welcome back! đ
⏰ We will be opening the chat from 11am to 7pm today. ⏰
House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:
1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views.
2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.
3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment.
4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.
5. Let’s protect each other’s privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential.
Full set of Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms
We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.
Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.
The topic will be posted shortly.
Thank you
Megan đ
[10:59 am, 10/01/2022] +REACH: đ˘ Topic đ˘
Parliamentary proceedings grabbed the spotlight last year, from a record-breaking marathon debate on Singapore's cost of living to policies aim to build an inclusive society in Singapore.
đŹ What are your views on the policies that aim on building an inclusive society in Singapore, such as the Bill on maintenance of racial harmony and the amendments to the Women’s Charter? How can we play our part to build a stronger, more harmonious and inclusive society?
1. Legislating workplace anti-discrimination guidelines
After many calls over the years - from both in and outside the House - for the Government to come down hard on workplace discrimination, PM Lee made a surprise announcement at last year's National Day Rally that such guidelines would be enshrined into law.
The guidelines by the fair employment watchdog, the Tripartite Alliance for Fair and Progressive Employment Practices (Tafep), cover areas such as recruitment, retrenchment and handling of workers' grievances.
2. Tabling of Bill on maintenance of racial harmony
Singapore will again look to update the statute books to deal with the age-old issue of racial discrimination, after a series of racist incidents in the last two years resulted in much collective soul-searching.
The Maintenance of Racial Harmony Act will consolidate all existing laws - currently scattered under various pieces of legislation - dealing with racial issues, said PM Lee in his National Day Rally speech last year.
3. Amendments to the Women's Charter
Proposed changes to the Women's Charter likely to be passed this year could allow couples here to divorce amicably without pinning blame on either party.
There is a good number of people in their mid-20s looking to set up families in Singapore, which raises the question of how more support can be given through policies and structures to make women here feel hopeful about family formation and having fulfilled lives. These amendments will take place amid a wide-ranging review of issues affecting women, to bring about greater gender equality and respect for women.
đ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/five-hot-topics-on-the-parliament-agenda-this-year
đ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/ndr-2021-fair-employment-guidelines-to-become-law-new-tribunal-to-deal-with
đ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/national-day-rally-2021-new-law-on-racial-harmony-to-encourage-moderation-send
đ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/proposed-changes-to-womens-charter-pave-the-way-for-couples-to-divorce-amicably
đ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singapore-to-conduct-review-of-womens-issues-to-inculcate-mindset-change-for-gender
-----
[11:13 am, 10/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors
We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic đ
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan
[11:22 am, 10/01/2022] +BL: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/national-day-rally-2021-new-law-on-racial-harmony-to-encourage-moderation-send - good to see this happening. Racism is taught because I do not know a single child born a racist. If Racism is taught, then it can be untaught.
[11:24 am, 10/01/2022] +BL: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/proposed-changes-to-womens-charter-pave-the-way-for-couples-to-divorce-amicably - I'm curious why Muslim Marriages are excluded; and also should this be part of a Family Charter rather than a Women's charter? Divorce legislation applies to both men and women.
[11:27 am, 10/01/2022] +BL: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singapore-to-conduct-review-of-womens-issues-to-inculcate-mindset-change-for-gender - positive step forward. We've seen too many molestations, up-skirt arrests and cameras in women's bathrooms to ignore this problem. From an early age kids should be taught to teach both gender's with respect and care. We are different but should have equal opportunities and the right to be treated the same. I wonder if this will include Tax relief for Men who hire Domestic Helpers, which currently only Women are entitled to?
[11:29 am, 10/01/2022] +BL: I suspect the workplace is where women are most unfairly treated - will that be addressed through Employment or Women's Charter legislation?
[11:29 am, 10/01/2022] +BL: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/five-hot-topics-on-the-parliament-agenda-this-year - I'm not a subscriber, so couldn't read this article.
[11:52 am, 10/01/2022] +Anthony: Hi everyone,
GST hike looks granted for Government point of view.
But recently food price had being increase tremendously
Did our Government really want to do increase GST Tax this year?
Another thing , Are lower income wil going to get more grant & help when they need help?
Take a good example social unrest & expensive living cost making poverty group hard to survivor , The Kazaks have to go down to street to protest to show The Kazaks government they had being suffer so much & all this year
Singapore Government should learnt a lesson treating people kindly from all walks of life
Singaporean Wil appreciate & thankful Government it they need help & assistance
I hope Government Wil realise no group of people should be I'll treated in our society & unfairly
As well given Low income more in their daliy life benefits like opening affordable cafe
More private sector companies should provide Low Income group more cheaper rate
From Cinema Ticket & Amusement facilities
Government authority should given free ticket to low income family as well like museum & affordable price for chalet waive of fees for Passion Card even they are young adults earning less then $2000
No age limits as they consider Low income group
My Suggestion to G
[11:58 am, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: I don't think it's a good year to increase GST this year as recent inflation rate is at its highest (source: https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-nov-core-inflation-rises-by-16-stays-near-three-year-high-2021-12-23/) while our salary/income seems to be stagnant. By increasing GST it will further push up prices
[0:08 pm, 10/01/2022] +Anthony: To Government simple one Chinese word
ä¸čŚčŽŠć°ĺ ĺĄčľ°ĺ¤´ć 衯
☺️☺️
[0:59 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: For 1, during recruitment and hiring process, other than gender, race, religion questions, questions or checks related to medical and disabilities should be reduced. I think persons with challenges should be able to apply and get hired indiscriminately.
[1:00 pm, 10/01/2022] +REACH: No plans to introduce vaccination-differentiated measures for kids aged 12 and below
There are currently no plans to introduce vaccination-differentiated measures for children aged 12 and below, said Health Minister Ong Ye Kung on Monday (Jan 10).
This means children will be able to enter schools and public areas no matter their inoculation status.
More https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/no-plans-to-introduce-vaccination-differentiated-measures-for-kids-aged-12-and-below
[1:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: As a whole, the middle income people are very much overlooked and in the times of every cost is rising exponentially, middle income people had no where to turn to. How can the govt help?
[1:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: +1
[1:04 pm, 10/01/2022] +65 9009 7919: +10
[1:05 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: I agree. The richest get even richer, the poorest gets help, while the middle income people continue to be sandwiched
[1:10 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: Precisely the richer get richer so GST should be increase earlier. GST is consumption tax. Those who have more money and consume more should be taxed
[1:11 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: We are indirectly subsidising the rich now if we dont tax them the 2% extra
[1:13 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
You are right.
[1:13 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Correct.
[1:14 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: GST doesn’t discriminate. To the richer that extra 2% is peanuts to them, but for the lower income that extra 2% is a lot
[1:14 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: The middle income one as well as most of them are fixed salary employees.
[1:15 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Then increase tax on those rich only
[1:17 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: When you look at the absolute amount if GST collected from the rich and the poor, the GST voucher will subsidise a great portion of the 2% extra of the poor. But peanut to the amount paid by the rich. No if GST increase is peanut to the rich, the amount paid by the poor after the GST voucher may be peanut too.
[1:17 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/wealth-investing/number-of-millionaires-in-singapore-expected-to-rise-619-by-2025-credit-suisse
[1:17 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Yes
[1:17 pm, 10/01/2022] +REACH: Vaccinated people accounted for 30% of COVID-19 deaths last year: Ong Ye Kung
Fully vaccinated individuals accounted for 30 per cent of Singapore's COVID-19 deaths last year, said Health Minister Ong Ye Kung on Monday (Jan 10).
More https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/vaccinated-people-accounted-30-covid-19-deaths-last-year-ong-ye-kung-2424926
[1:18 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: If the poor is already living from paycheck to paycheck, how can they even afford peanuts?
[1:18 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: Too difficult to administer as the merchant cant differentiate who is rich and who is poor
[1:18 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: I think best is use absolute amount to illustrate to see the impact of gst increase to the poor
[1:19 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Then tax based on brands?
[1:19 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Wealth tax can be part of the consideration: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/big-read-wealth-tax-economy-covid-19-pandemic-2342236
[1:19 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Don’t shoot me please
[1:19 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: The poor cannot even afford the cash to buy the necessities, how to illustrate the impact?
[1:20 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: If no purchase, then the absolute amount computation is inaccurate.
[1:21 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Because no purchase will never be in the equation
[1:23 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: For example, the poor buys rice for their meals. Now they cannot afford to eat rice everyday, so they eat instant noodles. The absolute amount will always state the poor has enough because the poor stopped buying rice. But eating instant noodles everyday damage their health.
[1:25 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
1. Singapore is a financial hub - because we managed to attract high net worth individuals to put their money and investment in Singapore.
2. We have to be careful to single out wealthy people to tax and discriminate.
3. They can easily transfer their money out to other financial hubs with a click of the button.
4. Then Singaporean will lose their big finance to manage and may lose alot of jobs and investment.
[1:28 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Another example. The middle income currently sends their babies to infant care. Infant care is abt 800 after subsidy. Add 2% is another $16 per month. Don't forget other expenses. But the family already is living from paycheck to paycheck. Their salaries are fixed every month and their expenses are like 4k per month. 2% of $4000 is $80. Currently their paycheck is just nice for the whole household expenses. Where do they find extra $80? Middle income may not qualify for gst vouchers.
[1:29 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: If the poor earn 25000 a year and spend all, 2% increase cause them $500. If gst voucher is $500. The amount will be fully offset. So we really need to look into the detail to understand the impact to the poor. If the poor choose to spend less, they may even have a little surplus.
[1:33 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Yes they spend less as per my example above then. Change rice to instant noodles.
[1:33 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Wrong tax policy on the wealthy - may see us losing $3.5 trillion to manage.
Imagine our investment bankers earning the commission, weath management fees etc from the $3.5 trillion.
But the moment we target this wealthy to tax, trillion will move out to other financial hubs, our bank staff lose business, our business cannot borrow to fund their business - then start retrenching Singaporean - everyone lose.
[1:34 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: U really disregard the detrimental effects. I guess you must be one of the rich people around.
[1:34 pm, 10/01/2022] +REACH: ‘Currently no plans’ to make COVID-19 vaccination compulsory for primary school, pre-school attendance: Chan Chun Sing
Responding to parliamentary questions about vaccination-differentiated safe management measures for children, Mr Chan said: “The focus at this time is to ensure our children are well-protected against COVID-19 as we begin vaccination for those aged five to 11 years.”
More https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/covid-19-vaccination-primary-school-pre-school-attendance-2424986
[1:34 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: You are right. Maybe penny wise pound foolish
[1:34 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Yes and let our own people suffer.
[1:35 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: đ applause to Govt for this sensible decision.
[1:36 pm, 10/01/2022] +REACH: COVID-19 medical bills for kids aged 12 and below will be paid for regardless of vaccination status: Ong Ye Kung
Children aged 12 and below who did not travel recently will continue to have their COVID-19 medical bills fully covered by the Government regardless of their vaccination status, said Health Minister Ong Ye Kung on Monday (Jan 10).
More: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/covid-19-medical-bills-children-covered-government-vaccination-status-ong-ye-kung-2424876
[1:38 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: If rich spend 250,000 and get taxed 5000 without any offset while the poor spend 25,000 with a full offset, the $5000 will be redistributed to pay for healthcare for both rich and poor, tell me any other way to do it since the $5000 must come from somewhere. The above simplistic illustration show that there will be impact to the rich while government will manage and mitigate the impact to the poor.
[1:40 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: Dont get emotional on the issue but analyse it in a logical way, if there is any gap , i am sure government is willing to fill
[1:41 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: GST 2% increase is a sensible decision - the key question is, how will the govt spend the money.
If we want Govt to help the poor more, then the govt need to tax more.
If we want less tax, then we should expect fewer social services.
GST taxes on consumption so it's in a sense "fair" because you are only taxed on what you spend - and those that are richest will spend and pay the most. The important thing for us to do is to hold the government accountable on how they spend the money.
[1:41 pm, 10/01/2022] +Sam: Well said JC, you put the points across well
[1:49 pm, 10/01/2022] +Phyllis: Well well well
[2:02 pm, 10/01/2022] +YT: I wish they wouldn't waste time in Parliament for such things. Really waste of time just for the sake of being able to claim that he/she has spoken up x number of times etc., Quality, not quantity. But unfortunately, many people don't see it that way.
[2:03 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
There are many smart ways to do it.
Targeting the wealthy head-on - will hurt lower and middle income more.
[2:12 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: I think wealthy people dislike being taxed probably as much as any one of us. If they can avoid it, they probably would do so. Having said that, I think the govt should think hard about how to manage wealth accumulation across generations - too much wealth accumulation is not good for society as it can create different social classes.
[2:13 pm, 10/01/2022] +Boon: What is “Wealthy” should be better objectively understood since it is relative
[2:14 pm, 10/01/2022] +Lisa: Lisa in - was held up in the traffic.
[2:15 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: I am supportive of capable people earning big money because of their ability and contributions to society/economy but I am less convinced that inherited wealth is beneficial to society. Increasing taxes on inherence might be something worth exploring.
[2:25 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: Yep, that's e fear. Nonetheless, we don't have to totally abolish it, just have to tax it less than most other wealthy countries. Nobody says we need to tax like France... That's a silly comparison
[2:27 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: đ
[2:28 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: GST Disproportionately affects those on lower incomes though. A higher % of their income goes on GST than those on higher incomes.
[2:29 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: But they also disproportionately benefit from govt transfers to offset the GST increase.
[2:29 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: This only works if you have a different GST rate on luxury goods. A rich person or a poor person might still consume just 1 pint of milk.
[2:29 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: Again the key is not whether GST is good or bad，it's how the govt spend e money.
[2:31 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: Govt need to raise revenue to support better/more social services for e poor. Do we support that?
[2:31 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: It's more helpful to look at % of those vaccinated who died against % of the unvax who died.
[2:31 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: Then e question is what's e most efficient way of raising that money.
[2:31 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: Whether it's fair and whether it has any "side effects"
[2:32 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Perhaps a one-off windfall tax could be considered.
[2:33 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: Muslim marriages is under shariah law so interpretation is different
[2:33 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Makes sense - I support Vax, but also support Parent's right to choose for kid, at this time.
[2:34 pm, 10/01/2022] +RH: +11
[2:36 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Yes - I support this. Inherited Property seems like a good place to start. The sudden (and sad) inheritance of $m properties doesn't help promote fairness and equality for all.
[2:36 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: so say the wealthy đ
[2:37 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: Recently, up to 136 countries joined/agreed to a minimum International Tax rate for Companies/Corporations.
Depending how successful that initiate is, and /or how long it will last, it might be a template for a similar Global/International Wealth tax. In any case, don’t think it will happen anytime soon đ
[2:37 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: help family lawyers make a lot of money though... as the kids fight in court over inheritance :D
[2:37 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: Exactly
[2:38 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Not under Singapore law? I didn't realise a religion group could say they don't recognise the law of the country they reside in. How does that work?
[2:39 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: They would be no fight. The law could for example say that tax is paid on the value of a property over $1m. It then comes out of the estate which if cannot be paid the property is sold.
[2:39 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: yep... there's a lot of powerful people lobbying against this.
[2:40 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: Then they will just buy it overseas instead of buying in Singapore.
Have you or do you know of anyone who had deferred their designer bag purchase till they go for their holiday in Europe?
If an average person would, and could do that, don’t you think the rich would do the same? Like I always say 100% of $0 is still $0.
[2:40 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: đ
[2:43 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: A lot of people like to make a lot of noise about helping the poor blah blah blah .. when actually what they are really saying, is “you” as in someone else should help the poor. They open mouth, other people open wallets đ
[2:44 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: Agree. It's easy to use "helping the poor" as the reason to reduce your own tax bill... hahahah
[2:44 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: morally upright
[2:44 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: We already have that number published .. for people in hospital/require critical care.
[2:45 pm, 10/01/2022] +RH: Those who can afford wud probably do so.
But ther r brand followers & diehard luxury brand users.
Nowadays, u dun nd to go overseas to buy... Shop Online!
How abt imposing tax on luxury goods bought online instead? đ
Just a suggestion.
Online retail shopping has not bn included, (or m I wrong) in our tax computations?
[2:46 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: You mean the “middle class” living in condos, owns at least a car, goes for overseas holidays once or twice (or more) per year? That middle class who needs help? đ
[2:49 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: đ
[2:52 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: Whatever restrictions that the Govt imposed, who/which group of people do you think, would have more resources/ability to circumvent it?
[2:52 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: This is how it was before 2008. https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/inheritance-tax-estate-duty-singapore/
[2:57 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: Did you not notice the influx of “Crazy Rich Asians” especially post GFC? Heard about how foreigners were buying bungalows in Sentosa .. in cash? Notice how many more Ferraris/Lambos/Bentleys etc on the road? Not saying that is the only reason, but it probably had a big influence on the inflow of $.
[3:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: I understand - it was just whether to be more selective. Perhaps property is good place to look for helping balance wealth for the next generations. How is it a fair and equal society with so much disparity in inheritance. That is money given by the wealthy to the wealthy, it is not earned by those who receive it.
[3:01 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Capital flight, Singapore experience it's worst recession.
Meagre collected from inheritance tax.
Inheritance tax abolished.
[3:02 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Where do the wealthy put their money then? Why are there wealthy people in France, US, UK etc if Inheritance tax drives them away?
[3:03 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
So one wrong move on taxing and discriminating the wealthy - they transfer their money out.
[3:03 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: where to? and why haven't they done that in other countries that have inheritance tax?
[3:03 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
There are so many financial hubs and tax havens out there.
Bahamas, HK, etc
[3:03 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: I am sure Singapore is more than just low taxation. If we are, then I am worried for Singapore's future.
[3:04 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Tax wisely not low tax
[3:04 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Yes always at the mercy of the wealthy threatening to leave....
[3:04 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Anyway, what level of tax does the rich consider fair to pay after they die?
[3:05 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Later got time then talk about it.
They willing to pay if they also at the same time receive benefits.
[3:05 pm, 10/01/2022] +RH: I think we are all agreed on this. đ
However, we r talking abt taxation here - where, wat, how these can/shd be imposed on/implemented.
Like I said, if we're gg for the 2% incr in GST, why not incl online shopping in the mix...
And since we're wanting to hv some differentiation in classes, luxury goods seems to be a logical target. While we're at it, why not tax more on luxury cars like yr Ferrari's, Lambo's, sports/fast cars... The list goes on.
Just a suggestion. đ
Of course, those who can circumvent the system will find ways to do so. But these wud be the minority, (I wud think !)
[3:05 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Thank you. Let’s talk about how to tax the wealthy wisely?
[3:05 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: I'm not anti-rich by the why - I'm not suggesting 45% tax like France and Canada. However, GST is going up - where else can we look for small reasonable contributions?
[3:06 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Benefit is living in a safe stable country; that'
[3:06 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: HK -> are you sure if you are a rich man that you want to park your $ in HK today :D
[3:06 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: that is priceless...
[3:07 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: exactly
[3:07 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Switzerland
[3:07 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: no safer place for your money than Singapore; that's worth a small premium.
[3:07 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: https://www.knightfrank.com.sg/singapore-view/article/2021-09-28-what-does-it-take-to-be-the-top-1-wealthy-in-singapore
[3:09 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: "High standards of living, quality education and healthcare, a stable political environment, human capital and service infrastructure create an attractive environment for the wealthy to invest and purchase homes in Singapore."
Am sure the ultra rich is willing to be taxed a bit more for these?
[3:09 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: Singapore is a small country and a "price taker" in a sense when it comes to something like wealth/inheritance taxes on globally mobile wealthy folks. If most developed countries are not taxing these guys, we probably can't do that as well. If they are - then we could consider taxing them some amount, as long as its lower than what you see in other countries.
[3:10 pm, 10/01/2022] +JC: but it MIGHT be true that the revenues raised is still going to be much lower than people would think.
[3:19 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: True - but it sends a good message that this is One Singapore: http://onesingapore.org/
[3:30 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
1. For the wealthy, if you tax them for the sake of taxing them just because they are rich - they will take their money and run.
2. However if you exchange benefits with them but tax them in exchange for the benefits - they will willingly pay.
3. This is call tax them wisely.
Don't single them out and tax them.
[3:39 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Tax for the sake of tax? Tax is for the benefit of the country. Healthcare, security, education, infrastructure. These are all paid for by tax.
[3:40 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Tax isn't just about supporting those who were not born into wealthy families.
[3:41 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Tax pays for our police, fire, SAF, road cleaners, street lights etc. A tiny increase from the most wealthy should be welcomed as a way for them to contribute. I'd be happy to shake their hands as a sign of appreciation, if that's what they want....
[3:42 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Tax them for these: High standards of living, quality education and healthcare, a stable political environment, human capital and service infrastructure
[3:44 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Perhaps we should introduce Luxury Tax?
[3:44 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Tax is a whole class of fiscal policy that bring out the best economists to formulate.
It is more delicate than just say tax and people willingly pay the tax.
It has impact on our international competitiveness, capital flight, and many other factors.
Hence, delicate handling of taxation is essential.
[3:45 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: Our PM did say recently difficult to implement
[3:45 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Actually why ah? Which part is difficult
[3:45 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Luxury Goods Sales Tax - someone can run the numbers to see what makes sense. If it needs to be 10% to make a difference then it's probably not worth it, but if 5% or less makes a meaningful contribution then it's worth looking at.
[3:45 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
And it has tremendous impact on our economic growth.
[3:46 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: He did not elaborate in detail during the press conference with a foreign media/newspaper.
[3:46 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Do you have some numbers that demonstrate this, or just speculation?
[3:50 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
If tax is so easily implemented, countries like US, Malaysia, and many advanced countries won't have year and years of budget deficit and incurring mammoth public debt.
[3:51 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
And US will not have cross boundaries legislation to chase rich individuals and businesses for tax.
[3:51 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: The incentive then is to give them tax breaks for social causes etc.
[3:52 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Good idea - make the tax relatable to a good cause.
[3:53 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Singapore is the very few countries in the world that often maintain a balance budget and yet accumulating very healthy sovereign fund.
[3:53 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: One way to keep the money in the country
[3:53 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Not sure that Debt is the cause of Tax.... are you saying they have deficits because they have higher rates of tax?
[3:55 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Rate of tax is not equal to debt.
But higher tax will drive business and individual out of the country.
[3:57 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Substantiate the part on higher tax will drive business out of country please
[4:00 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Why do companies in US and EU move to low tax countries?
Why Singapore and HK are called tax haven and many businesses move to Singapore?
[4:00 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Simplest solution then is to charge more import duties on luxury goods, which maybe they already do.
[4:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Because we have low corporation tax, low income tax, low GST
[4:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: I think the proposal was to see if a small increase will make a substantial difference. If not then sure, no point.
[4:02 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
You have provided the answer in addition to Singapore good governance, stability, sound infrastructure etc.
[4:02 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Either way, the increase would keep Singapore below its competitors.
[4:02 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: And the inheritance tax proposal could help house price inflation under control as well
[4:03 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: yes - i don't think anyone disagrees with this
[4:03 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
As well as market penetrations to ASEAN, China, Asia Pacific etc with our myraid of ftas.
[4:03 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Yes, language too
[4:03 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Openess for all culture, religion etc
[4:04 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Wow, what an amazing country this is! It takes just a few seconds to remember that. We should protect all these good things. Part of our ethic should also be to protect all the people, not just the wealthy.
[4:04 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: Agree
[4:05 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: How do we make society fairer without damaging it.
[4:05 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: a few small changes are being suggested for consideration
[4:06 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Luxury Goods Tax, Inheritance Tax on Property, Duty on Luxury Goods - alongside GST increase. That way it is fairer.
[4:06 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: GST impacts lower income families propotionally more. The vouchers offset that. Tax on Luxury goods also offets that.
[4:07 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Thus implementation of taxes is a very delicate issue that need to balance every aspect.
One move, will move all the connected dots.
Like gst, wealth tax etc need to be carefully balance.
Nobody like taxes including myself but careful tax planning may be a necessary evil to fund our country's needs.
[4:07 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Yes agreed.
[4:07 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: I'm sure the GST increase was thought through carefully too.
[4:08 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: These other proposals could also be carefully considered to see if they make sense.
[4:09 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
I am sure gst rebate will be work out for the lower and middle income group.
While the rich pay for the luxury items such as property, cars, branded products and others.
[4:09 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
This is where rich willingly pay the tax while reaping benefits.
[4:11 pm, 10/01/2022] +Timothy Low: But increasing tax is unavoidable. Now the question is to tax the wealthy more or just tax everyone equally via GST. My take is to tax more on the wealthy through luxury tax and property tax
[4:13 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: Agree
[4:13 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Very simple calculation for gst rebate to the lower and middle income.
If lower income annual expenses is $30,000, gst is $2,700.
Gst rebate > $2,700 solve it
If middle income annual expenses is $50,000, gst is $4,500.
Gst rebate $4,500 solve it.
Meanwhile, if the rich spend $1 million annually, he pay $90,000 gst.
Government take all
[4:13 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
I don't disagree.
[4:14 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: Seems fair
[4:14 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Because the rich get benefit like property and luxury goods - they are willing to pay higher tax in exchange for the benefits.
[4:15 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: Win win situation
[4:16 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
If just tax them like inheritance tax, etc where they don't benefits anything - they just take their money and go elsewhere.
Thus must tax wisely, in exchange for benefits.
Then we will succeed.
[4:40 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
400,000 millionaire and billionaire X $90,000 = $36 billion tax I guess because my calculators cannot compute - too big sum
So the top 10% income earners contribute 80% of government gst collection.
Just base on this illustrated example.
[4:41 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Minus the gst rebate to low and middle income people - still billion of dollars of gst collection annually.
[4:42 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
If chase out this 400,000 wealthy people, we got not much revenue to collect.
[4:51 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Most live in condos are millionaires... dunno why millionaires are classified as middle class.
[4:52 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Millionaire in liquid is millionaire.
Condo not counted.
[4:52 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: How did you calculate 400,000 millionaires+ ?
[4:53 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Based on the projection of hnw in Singapore.
[4:54 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: The classification is Net Worth which does include property (minus outstanding mortage).
[4:54 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: https://smartwealth.sg/number-of-millionaires-singapore/
[4:54 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: they may be IN those countries, doesn't mean they are TAX RESIDENTS of those countries
[4:55 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: 269,925 Millionaires+ (including property, minus mortgage)
[4:55 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Almost all have a worth less than 5million.
[4:56 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Well their worth is more than most people in Singapore.
[4:56 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Correct. But the 400,000 x 90,000 calculation = $36BN in GST paid by the weathly doesn't seem accurate.
[4:56 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: At least they are better well off as compared to general public.
[4:57 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Just an illustration.
[4:58 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Yes, but you are using an illustration as a way to confirm everyone will leave and Singapore will have no GST revenue?
[4:58 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: Does the term tax haven mean anything to you? Don't wish to be condescending, but you are not helping by "asking in that tone" .. ignorant yet aggressive đ
[4:58 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: The illustration needs to have some basis in fact.
[4:58 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: who isn't?
[4:59 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: đ¤ˇđť♀️ if one says millionaires are just surviving only.. the general public and middle income and low income then how? Means they have even more difficulties in surviving coz their net worth and income is much less than the millionaires.
[4:59 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
I took the upper end 400,000 to compute.
[5:00 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Yes I saw that too; and how did you calculate the 90,000 - what was that annual spend?
[5:00 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Also some wealthy buy GCB of $30 million property - so even out
[5:00 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Yes.
[5:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Yes true. It's a bit confusing that they have to be so protected from a 2% increase in tax whilst everyone else has to suck it up.
[5:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: So isn't it true that the middle income are being sandwiched with no help and have shoulder their higher costs which are peanuts to millionaires?
[5:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Now the 2% is peanuts to who?
[5:02 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
A wealtht person buy one sport car $500k.
Easily add up to million dollar a year in expenses.
[5:02 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: ok; and how much GST is collected annually? I couldnt find that online
[5:03 pm, 10/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ĺż:
Don't know.
[5:03 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Sure - but 95% of wealthy people are not buying those cars. The link I shared showed that 95% have a net worth of up to $5m so I'd assume most are at $2m.
[5:03 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: 0% tax ... not just the rich .. MOST people do not want to pay taxes if they are given a choice... entire industries are built around "tax maximisation", "tax avoidance", etc.
[5:04 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Total tax collection was $50bn in 2021: https://www.straitstimes.com/business/economy/tax-collection-down-by-73-last-fy-282-billion-in-grants-given-out-by-iras
[5:05 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: 62% of that was income related ($30bn)
[5:05 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: GST was $10bn
[5:07 pm, 10/01/2022] +BL: Is $1,000 per year for all the millionaires too much to ask? That's worth $400m, which is equal to a 4% increase in GST.
[5:15 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: At risk of sounding like a broken record ....
The top 10% of taxpayers in SG contribute to 80% of the tax collection. Someone shared the link to this previously (from MoF). Scroll up to search for it.
Luxury cars are already taxed at a higher rate...subtlely. Exponentially higher road tax and also ARF compared to the "average" car that most Singaporeans can afford to "buy" on hire purchase.
If the Govt increase taxes on online purchases, it is mostly the "average" consumer who gets hit. Why? Because you won't get many Big ticket purchases online. When the price tag big enough, the transactions will usually be done offline. Again... can you afford to take a flight to Europe for a short shopping trip? Probably not...but, I know people who can afford to do that, and actually do that. The truth is, the richer the person, the more freebies they are going to get ,, free air tickets... free accommodation ... free meals at fancy restaurants... first bite on any limited edition release of some sort after mechandise. That illusive Rolex the is $12 RRP but people flipping for 20k+? Yes.. the rich get invited to get it ... because they drop hundreds of thousands on a PP, AP whenever they feel like it. The Rolex at RRP... that's the reward from the retailers for their patronage
[5:21 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: the fact that people like Eduado Severin gave up US citizenship to move to SG as a PR... people like them can come .. they can also leave ... EASILY đ
[5:21 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: GST is the best way to tax the rich
[5:22 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: E
[5:23 pm, 10/01/2022] +Rama: Subsidies for the masses must match
[5:30 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: the rich you speak of, mostly DO NOT pay income tax .. because they are either so rich that they do not need to work, or sometimes, as the business owner, they structure their income not as salary but as dividends or some other award .. or some other creative, and legal ways to avoid/minimise the tax rate they have to pay in taxes.
Politicians like to play up the (lower) effective tax rate to get voters behind them .. most times conveniently omitting the FACT that the real quantum that the rich pay in taxes,, especially in SG, is much much higher in absolute terms when compared to the average Singaporean taxpayer.
It is also a fact that the RICH has the means to change tax residency anytime they want, while still enjoying most of the benefits of the country they are not paying any taxes in.
[5:31 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: they can still do so without paying high taxes
[5:34 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: as in remain mostly in SG, but just not long enough to qualify as a tax resident ... with internet connectivity/telecommunications and convenience of air travel, the main consideration for them, is really where they WANT to be based, rather than where they NEED to be based out of.
[5:41 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: seeing that statement (and most of the imho, idealistic statements) above... I am almost certain you are at most an undergrad ... not old enough to be exposed to the real world yet đđ Not meant to be an insult... Like you, I was once young, naive and idealistic too đ stepping into the real world changes your views ... idealistic thoughts give way to realistic ones eventually đ
[5:57 pm, 10/01/2022] +Joseph: they can still enjoy these without being taxed
[6:03 pm, 10/01/2022] +Smiley face: 15,540 children aged below 12 had Covid-19 in S'pore in 2021
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/15540-children-aged-below-12-had-covid-19-in-spore-in-2021
[6:34 pm, 10/01/2022] +~N: @REACH Singapore may i know if 1. and 2. has any implications on foreign talent policy?
[6:50 pm, 10/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 10 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan
[6:57 pm, 10/01/2022] +Smiley face: 10 January, 2022
To: Distinguished MTF and All Honorable Members
"Children are less likely to develop severe illnesses when infected, and we want to preserve, as much as possible, universal access to holistic education for children,"
- - Health Minister Ong Ye Kung
Kudos:
To further extend this positive move, perhaps there is no need (if we are planning so) to VDS for schools other than IHLs like universities. These primary, secondary and JC activities such as PE, CCA, Competitions both internal and NSGs should be FREE from VDS. The use of mass ART tests will be helpful 24 hrs to 48 hrs prior to formal events with bigger attendance, outdoor or indoor MOE or school led events. These activities can be viewed as essential and holistically important to our students continuous developments both academics and CCAs. It is inline with today's Minister Ong announcement of non VDS for 12 and below age group. Kudos, what a great decision in the positive direction - MAJULAH!
News:
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/no-plans-to-introduce-vaccination-differentiated-measures-for-kids-aged-12-and-below
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/15540-children-aged-below-12-had-covid-19-in-spore-in-2021
[6:58 pm, 10/01/2022] +Smiley face: To: Distinguished MTF and All Honorable Members
Previously:
17 December, 2021
ADDON from previous Housing price cooling measures
"The Legacy and The Traditional Trust - The Sweets Of A Trust Fund Kid"
Main:
Using a Trust to avoid the buyer's ABST tax is perhaps a clever and exclusive way in paying no penalty for multiple properties ownership.
To have a fairer and inclusive tax structure, these traditional and well-heeled "trust" buyers cannot be exempted nor excluded from the ABST. At the minimum, this trust has to pay half of what the "normal" buyer currently pays to the authority.
Afterwords:
A Trust can be a perpetual entity over time or a fixed time line of expiry. In the later context where it dissolves and assets including physical properties can be distributed as "Gifts" to the designated beneficiary. An existing beneficiary in an extreme case can be a new born baby?
Secondly, in a free capital gain tax country, it is a sweet spot to circumvent the estate duty (proposed to legislate a new law named the Legacy Act) of such "Gifts" that pass on to the beneficiary whom can either hold or sell this physical property.
Proposing a transfer tax of 10% based on the current fair market valuation determined by IRAS. Allowable, installment of up to 12 months through GIRO to IRAS for this tax payment.
Thirdly, perhaps the new rules for ABST should include such future cases of dissolved trust and its property sales. Perhaps a frozen time of up to 10 years once the dissolved trust that for each physical property will subject to tax of up to 30% if the beneficiary sell within the 10 years period.
Finally, for a perpetual trust, a one-time transfer tax of 15% on the sales value of such property purchase approved by SLA and IRAS before being moved into a trust vehicle of all sorts.
A benchmark towards a more robust property prices cooling policy and a link into the next station of tax; the estate duty tax initiative, if it is the next tax collectible on the horizon?
Is it legally possible or relevant to tax a trust? Is it too late to implement these trust taxes (charity law?) meantime the carousel of rare and highly valueable properties continue to be done and sold? An old saying, rules are meant to be broken - both ways!
Epilogue, will Crypto, Digital monies and NFT (Non Fungible Token) be the next new Trust of things to come? The coming of this "virtual trust", how these virtual instruments and tools will evolve around us, the perspective of taxation and the legal world?
Any "blindspots or any parking lots" available, this case space for tax haven?
In the world of Robin Hood, there is no free rider as far as tax and taxable, please?
New:
https://vulcanpost.com/772569/crypto-billionaire-zhu-su-buy-gcb-singapore/
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/trust.asp
"After Singapore gained political independence in 1965, charity law was one of the areas of Singapore law which was regularised by the Singapore Parliament. On 1 January 1983, the Charities Act (Cap. 37) came into force. ... Charitable organisations were required to be registered under a register of charities."
https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/3-632-9693?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)
https://youtu.be/zpROwouRo_M
- - END - -
[7:01 pm, 10/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan đ
=====
No comments:
Post a Comment