REACH 305 - What are your views on PM Lee's New Year message, in particular on GST hike, new challenges in the pandemic, generating new growth in a post-pandemic economy, and building an inclusive society? How can we play our part to stay united as one people and one Singapore? (SK)
05 Jan 2022 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[9:45 am, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
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Megan ๐
[10:01 am, 05/01/2022] +REACH: ๐ข Topic ๐ข
The year ahead will be a time of transition as the economy is recovering steadily after two years of the Covid-19 pandemic, said Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong in his New Year message on Friday (Dec 31).
๐ฌ What are your views on PM Lee's New Year message, in particular on GST hike, new challenges in the pandemic, generating new growth in a post-pandemic economy, and building an inclusive society? How can we play our part to stay united as one people and one Singapore?
Below are the highlights of PM Lee’s New Year message:
GST Hike
๐ Singapore needs a vibrant economy, and reliable and adequate revenues to carry out its social programmes, the expansion of our healthcare system and support schemes for older Singaporeans.
๐ Rationale for raising a broad-based tax like the GST, coupled with a comprehensive scheme of offsets to cushion the impact on lower income households.
๐ Government will “start moving” on a planned Goods and Services Tax (GST) increase in Budget 2022, which will lay the basis for sound and sustainable government finances for the next stage of Singapore’s development.
New challenges in the pandemic
๐ PM Lee noted that the Omicron variant has brought new uncertainties, but asserted that Singapore can be "quietly confident" in our ability to cope with the pandemic.
๐ Nation's position is greatly strengthened compared to two years ago, having rolled out booster jabs and started vaccinations for children below 12.
๐ In addition, Singapore has learnt how to better manage the public health challenges while minimising the impact on our economy.
๐ Emergency support measures will be progressively phased out as businesses revive, and cross-border travel will be safely expanded, Omicron permitting.
Generating new growth in a post-pandemic economy
๐ Singapore's GDP is expected to grow by three to five percent in 2022.
๐ Continue to pursue trade liberalisation and regional integration for the benefit of Singaporeans. One example PM Lee noted is the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, which came into force on Jan. 1, 2022.
๐ Pressing on with industry transformation efforts to enhance existing strengths, help companies restructure, and upgrade workers' skills for longer term goals.
๐ Seek out new growth areas, including in the digital and green economies, building on our Smart Nation efforts and the Singapore Green Plan 2030.
Building an inclusive society
๐ Change in policy to allow Muslim nurses in public hospitals to wear tudung with their uniforms as a step towards building a more inclusive Singapore.
๐ Actively strengthening fairness at the workplace and support for women, as well as improving protection and retirement adequacy for self-employed persons.
๐ Mending rifts deepened by the pandemic, uplifting those falling behind, enhancing safety nets for those in need, caring for the mental health of people, and meeting the needs of an aging society.
๐ https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/2022-New-Year-Message-by-PM-Lee-Hsien-Loong
๐ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/2022-will-be-time-of-transition-as-economy-recovers-budget-will-touch-on-gst-pm-lee
๐ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/finance-minister-lawrence-wong-to-unveil-budget-2022-in-parliament-on-feb-18
๐ https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/plan-for-gst-hike-between-2022-and-2025-remains-unchanged-all-options-being
[10:19 am, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors
We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic ๐
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan
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[10:42 am, 05/01/2022] +BL: Lots to cover today. Acceptable about tax increases, we are still a v low tax economy. Important that low income families are shielded from the GST rise.
[10:43 am, 05/01/2022] +BL: Economy needs to grow substationally to pay back the cost of covid. 3-5% is a start but I'm assuming we need double digits over the next 3-5 years.
[10:44 am, 05/01/2022] +BL: Fully support an inclusive society and hope to see funds going to that.
[10:45 am, 05/01/2022] +BL: SG has done really well with Covid measures. ๐๐ค
[10:46 am, 05/01/2022] +BL: Would like to see more done for kids and families to help recover from the lack of social interaction , and affects on mental health
[10:48 am, 05/01/2022] +BL: US doesn't know what good covid management means ๐คฃ๐คฃ
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/us-reclassifies-covid-19-travel-advisory-for-singapore-to-unknown
[10:52 am, 05/01/2022] +JC: GST hike is needful but the key is to ensure that the money raised will be well spent.
3 areas where funding should go to especially in my view:
(1) Healthcare -> we should move towards better universal coverage of healthcare treatments. There remains significant gaps in our system e.g. rare disease treatments are poorly covered. Significant co-payments still exists for some patients/treatments. Hopefully the GST hike can help contribute to that.
(2) Preparing for an older workforce -> given our ageing population, we need to be more radical in how we enable older workers to continue contributing to the economy. There's still significant ageism in hiring practices today and govt will have to take the lead in this in order to effect a paradigm shift.
(3) Wealth gap -> more needs to be done to ensure that the wealth (not just income) gap in SG society is not further exacerbated by the macro shifts in the economy. Basic needs should increasingly be better provided to give every child a fair starting point.
[11:05 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/consumer/nearly-470-people-lose-at-least-85m-to-phishing-scam-involving-ocbc-bank
[11:07 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Sorry to go off topic a bit. While we keep up good efforts to help the low income families and needy. I hope G can push private sector to protect the general public's money in the bank.
[11:09 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: The scammers are continuously on top of the game. And while we try to keep up-to-date on info to avoid falling into the scams, they come up with better and more convincing scams.
[11:11 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Money is not easily earned by the general public. Many people have been saving up since they were babies, putting in all their angpow money every year. Thinking twice if they should upsize their meal at fast food restaurants. When it is wiped out by scammers, it is heart breaking.
[11:13 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Just got sms from OCBC that it will stop sending sms with links for clicking. But consumers already so used to OCBC sms with links to click.
[11:15 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: I suppose that Telco has no way to stop scammers from adding sms below the authentic OCBC sms(s) that we already have in our phones.
[11:16 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: I suppose that Police also has no way to track where the money has landed and maybe the banks overseas are not cooperative.
[11:18 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: In Philippines, people can buy insurance on their deposits in bank, subject to a max value. However, after paying the insurance premium, there is little or no interest earnings left.
[11:19 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: I guess fraud might be more rampant there.
[11:25 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: While we understand the inevitable increase in GST is for the greater good of the nation, I hope G will see the actions of the scammers as being a national threat and push hard on the banks and telco to do what's right to protect the general public. Many people's world has collapsed when they lose their life savings in the bank.
[11:27 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: If possible, I hope G will push for the banks to implement options for its customers so that we can opt to NOT allow transfer of funds to people with banks whereby that bank is not able to recall the fund in the event of fraud/scam.
[11:30 am, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: I think people dont mind restricting their purchase to websites/companies/individuals with banks whereby the banks are in good relations to our banks and our local police to combat fraud/scam.
[11:59 am, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Subsidies across all types have to be adjusted upwards to keep pace with inflation and cost of living.
[0:05 pm, 05/01/2022] +Stella Yip: To help the general public deal with the increase in cost from GST increase, can G provide incentives to companies to increase wages, especially if the companies had performed well in 2021 and key executives were paid fat bonus?
[0:13 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: +1
[0:37 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors
We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic ๐
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan
[0:41 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: +1
[0:41 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: +1
[0:42 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: Cost of living getting higher and higher.. just wondering utilites bills went up double
[0:43 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: We use just normal usage.
[0:51 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: The electricity tariff went up again... haiz
[0:52 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: When energy price went up all up...when the oil price so low nv seen the electricity went down so much also
[0:52 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Ya
[0:53 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: 4 times since last years
[0:55 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Does open electricity market package price helps against SP for consumers!?
[0:57 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: Aiyo... open market..suddenly the company close..I also not aware...called then told me my contract transfer back to SP, huh! Like that also can
[0:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: Average usage around 200-230..last month suddenly went up 490,,called said estimated,,,huhhh
[0:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: You were supposed to be able to รงhoose
[1:00 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: How can estimate so much difference from average?
[1:15 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Do your own meter reading and submit
[1:18 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: Before that yes,only last few months not record. Thought was stable usage.. Will have to start again record
[1:19 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Don't allow SP to estimate between months reading is done.
[1:20 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: Ya..anyhow estimate one
[1:24 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: One thing I noticed, not sure correct or coincidence.. whenever got gov rebate no bill is much higher then normal... has anyone see the same.. just my thoughts only..
[1:24 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Balance of Public Health Safety versus Economy
1. Year 2020 and 2021 has been a challenging year due to the safety threat pose by covid pandemic.
Hence great effort is exerted to :-
a. Stop the covid spread among our population
b. Finding solutions - specifically vaccination (where 2 vaccinations + 1 booster) especially mRNA vaccines are found to be the most effective solutions to protect our population from succumbing to all strains of covid to date.
c. While our Economy, business and jobs - in some sectors take a back seat and got hit.
d. And many sectors, business and jobs - are forced to transform by going digital - so that sectors, business and jobs can continue to operate remotely working from home.
e. And even schools and learning can be done remotely from home.
2. Now with high percentage of our populatino 91% vaccinated with 42% receiving our boosters - covid strains can be more or less subdue without succumbing to serious illness and death - we can re-focus on our Economy, business and jobs.
3. The challenges we face in our Economy are :-
a. Disrupted supply chain due to pandemic
b. Geopolitical challenges that skew and disrupt global supply chain
c. High energy prices trigger by pandemic
d. Imported inflation - due to havoc cause by global climate, pandemic and supply chain disruption
e. Stagflation occuring in major economies - eg. US, EU, China etc characterised by high inflation (due to massive quantitative easing and money supply injection by Central Banks all over the World to boost their Economies hit by pandemic), but unfortunately fail to significantly improve their GDPs, business activities and create jobs - due to the crippling pandemic that force people to stay home, faill to boost business activities that dampen consumption and hence lead to dampening economic growth.
f. We have dig into our reserves, and for the past 2 years have to resort to fiscal deficit to fund our mammoth health expenditure - to foot the bills on testing, isolation, hospitalisation stay, vaccination etc.
As well as fund our business, jobs and livelihood of our total population - that are severely impacted by the covid pandemic.
4. Thus such "coming to post-pandemic" Economuc challenges will become serious challenges to our industrial sectors, business, jobs - whereby our Government will need to steer us back into pink of health.
[1:27 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: You might have a point
[1:35 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: Not sure how gov going to help people on rise of cost of living.. hopefully can do more for the mid and lower income workers
[1:50 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Areas that need to be brought back to pink of Health - come post pandemic
1. Business (impacted by pandemic and struggle to survive), urgent need to transform business to go digital to stay resilience and exploits opportunities that are brought about by RCEP, CPTPP and other FTA.
2. Jobs and income - higher value added jobs, digitial competencies that bring higher income - to be able to do well and cushion against GST increases, inflation.
3. Economy - to quote what the PM say - seek out new growth areas like Green sustainability economies and digital economies.
4. Public health safety - to ensure the total population achieve full vaccination and booster reach 70% from 42% for eligible population - so that covid pandemic regardless of all strains become harmless and we can go endemic.
5. Rebuild our financial reserves and prudent fiscal budget - by ensuring balance fiscal budget - as we cannot continue to incur budget deficit that will drain our finanical reserves and incur debt for our population.
Hence we need to :-
a. Impose broad base tax like GST to ensure everyone chip in to bring our National Reserve back to health.
But social measures need to be put in place to help low income earners, retiree and unemployed - are not seriously affected by the GST increases.
b. Maintain our currency strong - to cushion against imported inflation - but at the same time ensure our export competitiveness by transforming and focusing on producing high-value added products and services.
c. Boost local production of our food supply and reduce our reliant on importing food - for example, plant-based food, cell culture and tissue re-engineering food, high-tech vegetables, eggs etc. This will help us to hedge against imported food prices for our population.
d. Exploits economic opportunities offer by our multi-lateral trade deals eg. RCEP, CPTPP, Digital Economies, attracting high net worth home office etc. - to boost our Economies.
Continue to transform our business, workers skillsets, new economic sectors etc - to grow our Economies.
e. Look for alternative energy sources - such as installing solar panels for each household by paying a flat annual fee to complement current energy supplier - and hedge against high energy prices for each household.
2. I think we have done well in our Economy - as even though we are in the midst of pandemic in 2021 - we are a star performers - producing more than 7% GDP growth --- among the best economic performers in the World.
We can continue to do well come 2022 and beyond.
[2:20 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors
We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic ๐
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan
[2:37 pm, 05/01/2022] +Smiley face: Hong Kong hunts Covid-19 patient's contacts, orders cruise ship back to port
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hong-kong-hunts-covid-19-patients-contacts-orders-cruise-ship-back-to-port
[2:46 pm, 05/01/2022] +Laurent: https://www.theepochtimes.com/omicron-spreads-faster-than-delta-within-vaccinated-individuals-danish-study_4192825.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_campaign=breaking-2022-01-04-4&utm_medium=email&est=11KYOGTGpuO5Hc4Aa0OXML4i542hhf6eqYfvOpbgGWXU0DMNyd4gBNdjPSJkPCI%3D
[2:48 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ: https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely
Unvaccinated People Are 11 Times More Likely To Die Of COVID-19, New Research Finds.
[2:49 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/11/09/texas-unvaccinated-deaths-higher-covid/
Unvaccinated Texans 40 times as likely to die of covid as those fully vaccinated in 2021, study says.
[2:49 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20211124/unvaccinated-14-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid
Unvaccinated 14 Times More Likely to Die From COVID.
[2:57 pm, 05/01/2022] +Smiley face: VARANASI (INDIA)
With the help of monitoring committees, the distribution of Covid-19 medicine kits began in Varanasi on Saturday as a preventive measure to check the third wave of Covid-19, said additional chief medical officer (ACMO), Dr Sanjay Rai.
District magistrate (DM) Kaushal Raj Sharma had procured a large quantity of Covid medicines for the city from the government and monitoring committees had been roped in to distribute the medicine kits, he said.
“A total of 874 committees will distribute the kits in rural areas under eight primary health centers (PHCs) in developmental block areas of Varanasi. Likewise, monitoring committees of all 90 wards will distribute the Covid medicine kits in urban areas under 24 PHCs. These committees will also distr…
[3:33 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Deaf Covid-19 patients can now communicate with MOH through SMS and e-mail, instead of phone
Covid-19 patients who are deaf or hard of hearing can now communicate with the Health Ministry (MOH) through a short message service (SMS) or e-mail.
More: https://str.sg/wge8
[3:40 pm, 05/01/2022] +Smiley face: German health minister says tighter Covid-19 curbs unavoidable
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/german-health-minister-says-tighter-covid-19-curbs-unavoidable
[3:40 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
My close friend comments:-
We should not forget to thank PM, ministers, MPs and everyone in the civil service and gov agencies who had worked tirelessly over the past 2 years. Grateful!
[3:40 pm, 05/01/2022] +Smiley face: Hong Kong vaccine surge sees majority pick Sinovac over BioNTech
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hong-kong-vaccine-surge-sees-majority-pick-sinovac-over-biontech
[4:09 pm, 05/01/2022] +Smiley face: Indian health experts urge preparations for new wave of Covid-19
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/south-asia/indian-health-experts-urge-preparations-for-new-wave-of-covid-19
[4:21 pm, 05/01/2022] +Smiley face: Hong Kong to ban dining-in after 6pm as Omicron spreads
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hong-kong-to-ban-dining-in-after-6pm-as-omicron-spreads
[4:22 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: World is going back on measures!
[4:50 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors
We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic ๐
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan
[4:54 pm, 05/01/2022] +Smiley face: "This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
-- Winston Churchill
[4:55 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Singapore is relaxing on measures.
[4:55 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Possibly
[4:56 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: And wonder what will be the measures like esp for CNY period
[4:56 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: ya lor
[4:57 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: Gov shld make it mandatory for those go back ofc, all shld do weekly ART.
[4:58 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: I still think cut down the wfh to 25% will be better and make wfh as default for parents with kids less than 5 yo. The public transport is still very crowded and this is an incubator for unknown clusters forming.
[4:58 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: +1
[4:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: And people are still talking in mrt and buses.
[4:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: There is like no enforcement on the no talking rules.
[4:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: must have fines
[4:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Within the trains and buses
[4:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: then works for Singapore
[5:00 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: ๐คฆ♀️๐คท♂️
[5:02 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: just like trays return
[5:02 pm, 05/01/2022] +65 9489 5389: Rather get Covid than be fined for talking!!??!!! ๐คฏ
[5:09 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: +1
[5:09 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Current measures for compliance needs to be strengthened across all areas.
[5:10 pm, 05/01/2022] +JkL: +1
[5:24 pm, 05/01/2022] +~N: Why not do a progressive tax system rather than a flat tax across
[5:28 pm, 05/01/2022] +~N: And what is considered low income? By housing type or by per capita?
[5:30 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: +1
[5:30 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: What about those in old private property but are penniless!? Assests rich but cash poor!
[5:38 pm, 05/01/2022] +~N: I do not know how my personal finance is benefiting from trade liberalization, please let me know in simple terms how I can benefit from it
[5:41 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The GST is a regressive tax as it taxes all at the same rate regardless of income . Also isnt it a little too early to start getting their whole chicken back ( after giving us chicken wings). If anyone has noticed, our bills and expenses have been steadily increasing last few years ( water tariffs, electricity , conservancy ) u name it. And all coming hard and fast at the heels of each other
[5:41 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: ๐จ๐ณ๐ฑ๐ ๐คฃ๐๐คฆ♀️๐คท♂️๐๐๐
[5:42 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Salaries aren't going up in such a COVID impacted economy . Isn't it prudent to really slow down or better manage these increases?
[5:42 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: To
[5:42 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Instead of clawing it back and more with a vengeance?
[5:43 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: With the GST
[5:43 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: I wonder if the top really does connect the grassroots anymore as they always claim they do
[5:45 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Giving vouchers is sadly not a soln. It's a one time thing but the increased taxes are forever. And in certain cases u get it in terms of discounts rather than cash. They makes reallocation of your funds even more difficult especially if u are poor.
[5:45 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Not to mention those who are old or not educated enough to know how to get those vouchers.
[5:46 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: No amount of grassroot and social volunteers is going to address all these
[5:47 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: No, they don't!
[5:47 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Agree
[5:47 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Agree
[5:48 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: I wonder if our feedback here really goes to the top or it gets stonewalled and filed away somewhere so that only the good things get reported up? Hahaha
[5:48 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Stonewalling!
[5:48 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Just saying ๐. Don't kill me admin ๐คฃ
[5:54 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: There are 2 main types of taxes we incur:
1. Income tax
2. Consumption tax
Income tax is self-explanatory. Everyone earning a wage (above a minimum threshold) has to pay Income Tax. In fact, a lot wealthy people/business-owners etc, either have no salary (retired?) or pay themselves only a nominal pay = which attracts low/no Income tax - while getting the bulk of their income from Dividends/Stock options etc.
GST on the other hand, is a consumption tax. A wealthy person may pay less Income Tax than the average person on the street, but he/she will more than make up for it, from the GST on the bigger ticket items they purchase eg. GST on 1 luxury watch can be more than the entire monthly salary (let alone income tax) of an average person. Conversely, an average/low income person, can choose to defer or even substitute certain purchases to avoid having to pay the higher GST.
Whatever the case, we need to remember that if not GST, taxes will have to anyway be raised in other ways. The question is, would you rather have option of avoiding it - by deferring/substituting a purchase - or would you rather an Income tax, where you have no choice?
GST is a consumption tax
[5:56 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Your assumption is based on the fact that prices are different for poor pple and rich pple. It isn't . For certain neccesities pple have to consume regardless. For a poor person that tax has a bigger impact on the them then a rich person given the widening income disparity and especially in disposable income
[5:56 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: I would rather go for higher income taxes or capital gains taxes etc
[5:57 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Those impact the poorer pple much less
[5:58 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: But GST affects foreigners and tourists as well, while income taxes or capital gain taxes don't affect foreigners
[5:58 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Yes but your taxation model shouldn't be designed based on foreigners or tourists at the expense of the poorer citizens
[5:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: U can have tourism or more specific taxes or tariffs for that
[5:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The problem with the GST is it is a catch all
[5:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: It doesn't distinguish between the poor and the rich
[5:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: I think maybe not restrictive to tourism but foreigners I suppose
[5:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: It hits all equally .
[5:59 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: Given the low tourism rates
[6:00 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: For the poorer pple, that impact is proportionally bigger
[6:00 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: I give an example. Conservancy, water prices, electricity bills have increased significantly last few years
[6:00 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: Yes, I suppose there a trade offs to each model
[6:00 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Gst is already higher based on the higher fess
[6:00 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: For the poor pple, they cannot consume less of such services as they are essential
[6:01 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: +1
[6:01 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: In Malaysia for example. Certain categories of items or foodstuffs are exempt from gst
[6:01 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: I thought essential services are subsidized
[6:01 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Things like milk powder diapers etc
[6:02 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Again Via vouchers in most cases
[6:02 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: I think gst to be lower for essential goods
[6:02 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Or remain as 7%
[6:02 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: Maybe can differentiate between essential vs luxury goods then
[6:02 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: And impose higher taxes on luxury ones, to subsidize essential ones
[6:02 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Gst even impacts children who don't make an income
[6:03 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: From a finance perspective
[6:03 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Luxury will be cars, branded stuff and private properties?
[6:03 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: But gst is recurrent and non stop
[6:03 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Gst is a mega huat for the government
[6:03 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Income tax is once a year
[6:03 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: But how is to be categorised under branded stuff?
[6:03 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Exactly
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Or by a product value?
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Don't use gst. Have seperate taxes for property and cars
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: "Luxury" in the economic sense
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Those are already expensive but are really not essentials
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: I guess there's alr property tax tho
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Property tax for private properties
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Which has also increased ๐คฃ
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Hdb properties should remain the same
[6:04 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Sometimes I worry if we are having too many us trained civil servants and policy makers
[6:05 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: In the us, free trade model is the king
[6:05 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Free market , full capitalism
[6:05 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: That is why us has a lot of homeless and poverty
[6:05 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: They assume, if u r poor, u are lazy or incompetent etc
[6:06 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Exactly, the growing gap between rich and poor is already a sign of things to come
[6:06 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: But singapore pmets are just middle income ppl who are sandwiched
[6:06 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: My friend made a joke, middle class is becoming low class ๐คฃ
[6:06 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: And middle income ppl also feel the heavy impact because they have no help
[6:06 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The bulk of the governments income comes form the middle class
[6:07 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: They are not eligible for subsidies and they have to fork out more.
[6:07 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The rich have legitimate ways of reducing tax through their companies
[6:07 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: And salaries are not increasing enough
[6:07 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The poor hardly pay income tax
[6:07 pm, 05/01/2022] +Caleb: +1
[6:07 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: So really is the middle class that is doing all the heavy lifting
[6:08 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Yes. And with inflation and cost of goods increasing.
[6:08 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: I get it that prices have to increase but that tempo and amount of increase has accelerated significantly these few years :(
[6:08 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Middle class has nowhere to have financial aid
[6:11 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: ๐ ๐คฃ๐
[6:12 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: These will have an impact on investments and expat jobs
[6:13 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Sooo, what about the poor?
[6:13 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Bear in mind PM said even implementation of luxury tax is difficult
[6:14 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: It's tight rope to walk but I think always looking at individuals as money producing units is probably wrong
[6:14 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Government has to strike a balance somehow
[6:14 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Too much millionaires here ๐คฃ
[6:14 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
1. Department of Statistics :- Resident households - including those with no working individuals - received $6,308 per household member on average from various government schemes last year 2021.
2. If a low income earner expenses is about $3,000 a month per household, it means $36,000 per year will be spend by the low income household. And if GST is 9%, $3,240 GST will be incurred by the low income household.
3. But Government financial grant to low income household is $6,308 per household. It is more than cover the GST incur of $3,240.
4. And Government say that it will increase more government grant to low income household if GST is to increase to 9%.
[6:14 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: And difficult to tax!
[6:15 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Yes, they can just leave
[6:16 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Source :- Straits Times. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/household-income-from-work-for-poor-families-fell-69-last-year-due-to-covid-19-study-by
[6:16 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The devil is in the details, would love to see how they come up with all this . How do they calculate the spending of the low income earners and how they come up with how much rebates are needed
[6:16 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Are the grants automatic or they have to apply for it?
[6:16 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: If the latter, how do they qualify
[6:17 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: What are the assumptions used etc
[6:17 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Means testing must be adjusted
[6:17 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The devil always is in the details
[6:17 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: For example, the unemployment figured in Singapore , are calculated based only on those who are jobless for less than 6 mths
[6:17 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Those who are unemployed more than 6 mths are excluded
[6:18 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: As they are considered " not looking for employment"
[6:18 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Wonder which ministry will have the data and statistics behind this report
[6:18 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Would love to go their website to have a look
[6:22 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
Guide To Grants & Subsidies For Middle-Income Households In Singapore. Even middle income household also got. https://dollarsandsense.sg/guide-grants-subsidies-middle-income-households-singapore/
[6:23 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: My assumption is based on the fact that essential products in SG has perfect substitutes across a broad price spectrum. In simple terms, that means you can buy imported Japanese rice for $20/kg if can afford it, or a “house brand” rice for approx. $2/kg from NTUC … maybe less if you know where to look.
And i also did an estimate of the impact on a 2% rise in GST on food essentials versus the $95 GST Voucher that the lowest income families will receive in Jan 2022.
Basically, the $95 voucher will cover the 2% GST increase on $4750 of purchases.
I further calculated how much more taxes a wealthy person would be paying from the 2% higher GST from his/her Ferrari purchase - $20k. Assuming the Ferrari is (only) $1million. $20k more for 1 purchase that a low income person would not make, and 20k more in taxes from this wealthy person who would most likely not pay in Income tax.
[6:25 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Booster shot must be taken within 270 days after 2nd dose to remain fully vaccinated
➡️ https://str.sg/wghb
Omicron less severe; GPs key in deciding which Covid-19 patients require closer supervision
➡️ https://str.sg/wghE
US unaware of S'pore's Covid-19 data when it advised against travel here: Ong Ye Kung
➡️ https://str.sg/wghR
Covid-19 rules will remain during CNY period in view of Omicron wave
➡️ https://str.sg/wghD
Omicron versus Delta: What we know so far
➡️ https://str.sg/wghz
[6:25 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: This is naive. You are assuming the wealthy will still remain in SG/retain SG tax residency if Income tax/capital gains tax rate rises ๐
[6:26 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: 100% tax on zero is still zero
[6:27 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The voucher is only given at the start, it's not gonna be given permanently. And vouchers are not a catch all for all costs across the board for essentials. Basically u still pay first and they might subsidize u for some if u are lucky
[6:28 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Again, the fixation with the rich. Sure they will always go anywhere like the Bahamas but what about the collateral damage for the policies to keep them here
[6:28 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: True
[6:31 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: https://www.thebalance.com/trickle-down-economics-theory-effect-does-it-work-3305572
[6:31 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Not exactly the Singapore context but economists are starting to think that trickle down economics do not work
[6:32 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: The ultra rich didn't get to where they are by being nice . They game the system as much as they can through tax breaks , special benefits for their companies and investments
[6:32 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: And when they have gotten all they can, off they go to the next tax haven
[6:32 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: If i recall correctly, according to Sibgstats, the taxes collected from the top 5% of income earners account for something like 70% of all taxes collected by IRAS.
The wealthy CAN and WILL leave for a more tax friendly country. The average joe, probably not so mobile.
For every dollar of taxes lost from the exodus of a wealthy taxpayer, either (1) the same has to raised by taxing the rest more or (2) the Govt will have less $ to spend on infrastructure, security, medical subsidies, eduction etc etc.
[6:34 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: I will try and see if I can get the statistics behind this
[6:34 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Needless to say, its probably difficult
[6:34 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: How do they actually measure the gst they get from the 5% ultra rich?
[6:34 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: Why did Eduardo Severin take up SG residency? Will he still stay if the tax regime is no longer attractive to him? Can he still do what is doing if he were not based in SG? Seems pretty obvious to me who needs whom more ๐
[6:34 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Income tax and corporate taxes for sure
[6:35 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: it’s really easy to get. Just google. it’s all on Sibgstats. I am on the move now, otherwise i will find it for you ๐
[6:35 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: I guess the issue here is really if the benefits do trickle down to help the less privileged members of society who are as u mentioned , here for good
[6:35 pm, 05/01/2022] +JC: True
[6:35 pm, 05/01/2022] +JC: ๐ฏ
[6:36 pm, 05/01/2022] +JC: +1
[6:36 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
1.6 How long will the GST Voucher scheme last and how much does it cost the Government?
The GST Voucher is a permanent scheme with benefits given out yearly. The scheme aims to provide more support to lower- and middle-income Singaporean households, as part of our overall system of taxes and transfers. It cost the Government about $830 million in FY2020.
In 2012, the Government established a GST Voucher Fund to make payments under the scheme to eligible Singaporeans. The Fund provides certainty of payments regardless of the prevailing economic circumstances. If necessary, the Government can make further injections into the Fund to carry on financing this permanent GST Voucher scheme.
[6:36 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: I will look for it myself
[6:37 pm, 05/01/2022] +Rama: Does relocation elsewhere make a difference in living and wealth with the world as it is now!?
[6:37 pm, 05/01/2022] +JC: GST is not wrong, what we should scrutinize is how the additional money is spent and whether it is used in the right areas and not just for e short term benefit of poor but long term benefit of everyone
[6:44 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: Fulllg agree on the part about how the $ is going to be spent ..
My take is this .. the recent years were the only sustained period that we had run a persistent and relatively large deficit. The extra spending went mostly to supporting local businesses, ensuring adequate essential supplies continue to reach our shores, and providing extraordinary medical care for EVERYONE etc etc
If this is not sufficient to convince us that our Govt will continue to put the $ to proper use, then i am not sure what will ๐
[6:44 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We’d love to hear more from you!
As such, we are extending the chats until 8pm today.
Megan ๐
[7:07 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors
We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic ๐
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan
[7:17 pm, 05/01/2022] ☸️ Danny ๅฟ:
MOH files police report against anti-vaccine group for inciting parents to disrupt vaccination centre operations. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/community/moh-files-police-report-against-anti-vaccine-group-for-inciting-parents-to-disrupt-vaccination-centre-operations
[7:35 pm, 05/01/2022] +~N: This sounds like trickle down economics
[7:36 pm, 05/01/2022] +Joseph: No it’s not .. it’s simple Maths .. basic calculator and Pri school level maths
[7:38 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: That's not trickle down economics
[7:40 pm, 05/01/2022] +~N: Oh yes, it's not, it's pri school level math
[7:40 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: And u both sound like the same person
[7:40 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: There is no need to get testy about it
[7:41 pm, 05/01/2022] +~a: Why is it trickle down economics?
[7:46 pm, 05/01/2022] +Fulgrim: Insults are unnecessary . In any case , your whole logic is based on the data that majority of tax revenue is from the top 5% income . I will look into this before I come back
[7:48 pm, 05/01/2022] +Elena Woo: They always peg to take salary before deducting CPF. It should be peg to take home salary instead
[7:53 pm, 05/01/2022] +ALEX: From Ministry of Finance Nov 2019:
The top 10% of individuals who pay Personal Income Tax (PIT) contribute about 80% of PIT
https://www.mof.gov.sg/docs/default-source/resource/gst/pdf/8-why-don't-we-tax-the-wealthy-more.pdf
[7:53 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 10 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan
[8:01 pm, 05/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan ๐
====
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