REACH 419 - What are your views about the debate on the SERS exercise? How can we continue to ensure access to fair and affordable housing options for Singaporeans?
(SK)
11 Jan 2023 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
[10:57 am, 11/01/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
Welcome back! π
⏰ We will be opening the chat from 11am to 7pm today. ⏰
House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:
1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views.
2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.
3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment.
4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.
5. Let’s protect each other’s privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential.
Full set of Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms
We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.
Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.
The topic will be posted shortly.
Thank you
Megan π
[11:00 am, 11/01/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In Parliament on 9 Jan (Mon), SMS for National Development Sim Ann explained to Non-Constituency MP Leong Mun Wai that the approach to the Ang Mo Kio Avenue 3 SERS exercise is consistent with that of past exercises.
π¬ What are your views about the debate on the SERS exercise? How can we continue to ensure access to fair and affordable housing options for Singaporeans?
Mr Leong had called the Ang Mo Kio exercise an “epochal event” in the history of public housing as residents had to top up to buy a replacement flat of the same size with a fresh 99-year lease, and said it was disingenuous of the Government not to admit as such.
Responding to Mr Leong's adjournment motion, SMS Sim Ann said the Government’s approach to the Ang Mo Kio Sers exercise has been consistent with that in past exercises and that of the Ang Mo Kio SERS residents, 99 per cent did not need to top up for a similar flat type with a full 99-year lease, or a similar sized flat on a 50-year lease. She also clarified that SERS compensation was never pegged to a new flat of a similar size with a 99-year lease, and in a similar location. Rather, it is independently assessed based on market value, she added.
The Housing Board had chosen four blocks in Ang Mo Kio Avenue 3 for SERS in April 2022, and affected residents were unhappy at having to fork out more money to buy similar-sized units at a replacement site located next to ITE College Central.
Separately, Minister Desmond Lee also responded to Mr Leong’s proposal to exclude land costs in pricing Housing Board flats, calling it “superficially attractive” and “not logical”. Responding to a question by on how land used for public housing is valued compared with that for private housing, he rebutted the point made by Mr Leong in a Dec 8 Facebook post.
“It is not logical and simply cannot fly... (with) long-established, well-accepted valuation principles,” said Minister Desmond Lee, adding that Mr Leong’s approach is dangerous for Singapore.
π https://str.sg/wFcr
π https://str.sg/wFTp
-----
[11:04 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: The government explanation on this is still mind boggling for the average person to comprehend.
[11:06 am, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: I never see any history in Singapore having HDB with freehold?
Only we have seek private apartments and land house freehold.
What is mean for our HDB heartland with lease 99 years when there is value money in our CPF used purchase housing with accrued interest in total amount when expire lease become zero value.
[11:06 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Exactly
[11:07 am, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Government said rich and poor are equal living standards level but we are still poor living HDB is heartland
[11:08 am, 11/01/2023] +Noraini: Because based on previous policy, resident move flat then gets cash
[11:10 am, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Can I get back money in CPF HDB? Or HDB won’t give back our CPF because of no value expire on lease?
[11:10 am, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: What do this mean our living conditions?
[11:21 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Agree
[11:21 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Hugh!?
[11:21 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: The isse with this boil down on a question on Foreigner talent . Cos import too many Poor Foreigner to increase population thus BTO must re price to not let anyone benefit and SG KPI is on GDP thus ppl dont care u alive or dead just a number to it. but local parents we spent a lot of money cos we rear our parents in sgd not riggits
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Foul up somewhere along the years!
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: not for Malaysian and some malasyian returnt o JB but rent out HDB etc
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +Grace: I think we need to be kind to each other. For policies that affect local heartlanders who have built the nation, and the elderly who have worked hard to make Singapore what it is, we have to show compassion and kindness.
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: MOst malsyian or FT dont serve NS etc
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Grey area needs tightening
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: it a bad bad pocies
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Yes
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: What u mean to be kind ?
[11:22 am, 11/01/2023] +Grace: For new migrants and FT, they may need to pay a bit more for housing
[11:23 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: in work place do u see ppl kind to u cos 3 to 1 ?
[11:23 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: hahaha
[11:23 am, 11/01/2023] +Grace: Kind = don't inflict such sudden and painful penalties on the elderly and honest heartlanders
[11:23 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: maybe let talk about wealth tax first and then FT resolve ne by one
[11:23 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: The issue of less subsidies for this category must be made clear
[11:23 am, 11/01/2023] +Grace: Two wrongs don't make a right
[11:23 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Agree
[11:24 am, 11/01/2023] +Grace: For the elderly and honest heartlanders, Singapore is rly home.
[11:24 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Yes
[11:24 am, 11/01/2023] +Grace: For many FTs, it is just a stepping stone.
[11:24 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Exactly!
[11:24 am, 11/01/2023] +Grace: Unfortunately, this is the hard truth.
[11:24 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: i agree cant migrate liao not like ppl got 2 of both words
[11:25 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Migration is a thing of the past consider current world situation
[11:26 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: Agree, i will support this policy only 1. they only sell to 100% Singaporean families. 2. They cannot resell to open market, since this is to help them, they can only return to HDB at historical cost and taken into consideration of depreciation of structure, hence not for profit making.
[11:27 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: what u define singapore family ?
[11:28 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: 2 SC or 1Sc 1 PR
[11:28 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: when war happen the PR bring whole family back to orginat country is it ?
[11:28 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: a lot place can return even u give up citizenship
[11:28 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: as long u can prove ur ah gong islocal
[11:29 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: i think spain and china can right
[11:29 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: In current political situation, we should be very careful of selecting immigrants, not to let them come in using us as steping stone and also using here as a ground for their political agenda. Experically those who want to flight for independent yet refuse to serve to flight for their country, htese are the people that just want the cake and eat it, they will never be a loyal citizen
[11:29 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: i work in a company in 2017 out of 164 only 4 -5 serrve NS
[11:31 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: those who not serve NS or serve their own nation will never be loyal to any country, should not give them citizenship
[11:31 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: 164 ( 10% citizen 30% PR or ladies , the rest non loccal)
[11:32 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: both husband and wife singaporean
[11:33 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: also hard haha cos of NS , it make SG guys too years behind and since pay low , no sg girls like us , become karma haha
[11:33 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: Sg guys like Thia and vietnames so in fact the country is so messy
[11:33 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: Nto all singapore gal like that la, ha ha
[11:34 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: Sorry my bad , true already
[11:34 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: I apologies to all singaporean gals lol
[11:35 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: so before talking about housing root cause stil FT
[11:36 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Something like in Australia!?
[11:36 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: By tdoing this it will cause income gap in future
[11:36 am, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Happening as we speak
[11:37 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: so need to ask SG what they really want ?
[11:37 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: Are u sure ?
[11:38 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: I do not know how Australia policy work, however, as far as I know, the original idea of HDB is for singaporean to have a shelter, not to make profit. But these day some of them are thinking of buying low from hdb and make a good profit out of it in open marketπ€·♂️
[11:40 am, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
PSP Leong Mun Wai proposal could trigger the following sesimic effects in Singapore:-
1. Property market collapse.
2. Singaporeans HDB owners asset values drastically cut. Hence wealth cut.
3. Private property market values under butterfly effect plummet. Wealth depleted.
4. Bank loans - many default if property market crash and sellers cannot sell at market values.
5. Our sovereign funds wealth in property crash.
6. Accumulated sovereign funds available to our children, descendants drastically reduced.
7. Sesimic economic adverse impact to Singapore cannot be computed.
8. Will have adverse side effects to foreign investment, investors, and jobs - as property bubble burst have integrated ties to business, office properties values etc.
[11:40 am, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Depends on industry π
Not so fair to say like that
[11:41 am, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Mean collapsing the sovereignty
So our economy will become zero?
[11:42 am, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Singapore has nation history mankind’s created
[11:43 am, 11/01/2023] +Ken: If they convert, why they can’t have Singapore privileges?
Not serving NS is it a indication of true singaporean?
They still contribute and future generations are here to serve
[11:44 am, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
9. Singapore being a little red dot - land spaces is a premium.
Ignoring land valuation - has unprecedented effects on land allocation that defies economic principles on allocation of scarce resources.
Economic impact that could be sesimic - is unknown.
[11:45 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: so long 1. those who bought under this scheme can only sell back to HDB ( subject to qualifying) 2. Restrict foreigners to buy landed. take only HDB loan. 3. selling back to hdb price has to be lower than their purchase price so that hdb can resell again to the needy.4. Only the needy can buy under this scheme π€ ( I am sure many will not apply if there is restrictions )
[11:46 am, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
10. In layman terms - PSP Leong proposal is unprecedented.
"Madness" is the word that come to my mind.
[11:46 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: π€π€π
[11:46 am, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: If there is a time collapsing the market become crisis valuation.
Can we get back our CPF because it’s used purchase housing. If the government use our investment sovereignty weath will lose
[11:47 am, 11/01/2023] +Ken: We don’t integrate them expect them to be loyal to a country that treatment otherwise?
It takes 2 hands to clap.
I am second generation, my mum convert from Malaysia. I am offended
[11:47 am, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Yes I do serve, but serving NS is obligation, and not all serve are loyal. Is no choice.
[11:49 am, 11/01/2023] +Tan Kay Eng: Guess i did not get the message clear, wht i mean is htat a person who not want to serve their own nation, run away from their responsibility will not be loyal to the nation the reside, not mean to offend anyone
[11:51 am, 11/01/2023] +Ken: I mixed with international friends that converted. They never able to truly integrate, with accent always treated as foreigners.
We are country of immigrants, xenophobia is not the way to build a country and keep talent.
[11:52 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: I think in the group chat one opions should not be say i offended as we see this as a nation level not individual. Cos if i poor and u say i poor can i say i offended ?
[11:53 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: if u bring in own personal feeling it mean individual benefit .
[11:54 am, 11/01/2023] +KL: of course not too much till it break house rule
[11:54 am, 11/01/2023] +CH Poh Clinic: It is truth the Singapore does have . Just the ministry mis use their authority, causing bring harm to children and collapse the society .
[11:54 am, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ: 11.
For layman to understand, overnight, we can fall from a wealthy developed country to become a poor 3rd world country - as our economy wealth plummeted, run on banks, investors got frightened and pull out, talents run away, job losts.
It could be worst than Brexit.
[11:56 am, 11/01/2023] +CH Poh Clinic: Yes we are going backward causing more broken and poor families .
[11:58 am, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
12. Because in economic terms, this is a "nuclear demultiplier effect".
Never heard of any country trying this suicidal idea.
[0:04 pm, 11/01/2023] +Andrew Ang: "When Mr Leong calls for land to be sold at historical cost, you know that he is calling for it to be sold at an undervalue – below what the land is really worth today."
[0:05 pm, 11/01/2023] +KL: Can i say now the land is maybe at the highest point as well ?
[0:05 pm, 11/01/2023] +KL: of the 12 year cycle ?
[0:05 pm, 11/01/2023] +Andrew Ang: We may well also have to raise taxes to pay for the higher housing subsidies
[0:06 pm, 11/01/2023] +Andrew Ang: Mr Leong’s response would be that the Government can charge HDB less for the land. By this, he means that we should draw more from our Reserves, though he has avoided saying this explicitly. We have explained a number of times that state land forms part of the nation’s Reserves. If HDB does not pay back into the Reserves the fair market value of the land, we would in effect be running down the value of our Reserves, to the detriment of current and future generations
[0:07 pm, 11/01/2023] +Andrew Ang: Is this what we want?
[0:16 pm, 11/01/2023] +KL: Maybe we need to ask what HDB is for national interest ?
[0:16 pm, 11/01/2023] +KL: maybe you can get a answer :D
[0:17 pm, 11/01/2023] +KL: once u get the answer then i think the rest no longer matter
[0:27 pm, 11/01/2023] +Andrew Ang: Buy low sell also low. Is this what you want in the future?
[0:30 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: He was supposedly from government service so bewildered at his competence!
[0:30 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Agree
[0:31 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Agree
[0:32 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
So far PSP proposal very unorthodox, very frightening.
[0:32 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Possibly
[0:32 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: He has no depth of understanding.
[0:33 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Sigh....
Wonder why is he in Parliament?
[0:34 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: Public housing aka HDB is meant to provide affordable housing solutions to citizens. It was not meant to be used as tool for capital gain
[0:34 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Good Afternoon Everyone and to our New members too!
"3 Big Things: Money, Money, Money (δΈε€§δΊ: ι±δΈε€η¨)?"
[0:35 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: SERS will nv be fair to everyone as it's subjected to long term land usage known as master Plan
[0:35 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: That's why capital gains tax was introduced some time back to stemp the unrealistic Coston buying and selling!
[0:35 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
But certainly not to be used as a tool to bring us back into stone age.
[0:35 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: *cost of
[0:37 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: Perhaps government shd strike off SERS totally.
Have a longer plan beyond 30 to 50 yrs .
Shd HDB be built on land planned for other use in say 50yrs time, then offer a shorter lease
[0:38 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Worth 6?
[0:39 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Cancel SERS?
[0:40 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Good Afternoon Uncle Law!
[0:40 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Good Afternoon Andrew!
[0:40 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: Some citizen just want to live there till they die.
Offer these grp a Non MOP but lower the purchased price
[0:41 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: Similar to studio apartments
[0:41 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Singapore need oppositions who :-
1. Have a full grasp of the economic, political and social situation.
2. Propose workable solutions
And not some one who is ignorance, and try to bulldoze layman solutions without understanding its consequences.
[0:42 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Valid and logical reasoning. Plus sentimental value that is often hard to quantify too!
The neighbors and the neighborhood a person and family grew up just as important as money wise!
[0:43 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Good afternoon Uncle Law
[0:43 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: Wrg person. But gd afternoon
[0:43 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Sadly, none fit the bill currently!
[0:44 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Perhaps Policymakers should map out some scenarios showing the unintended impacts or consequences so that the public will see and comprehend the reasons of not following Mr Leong suggestions or better still to answer to any doubts from anyone. Move the pawns and avoid checkmate, please!
- - in progress - -
[0:44 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Singapore very far away from 1st world parliament.
[0:44 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Definitely!
[0:46 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: What are the attributes and qualifications of a FWP( first world parliament)?
Let's discuss this deeper, the attributes, the aspirations and the proper answers to this FWP.
THANK YOU.
[0:50 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Look at shadow government cabinet in first world countries for an indication.
[1:04 pm, 11/01/2023] +Singapore Maid Agency: Totally agree
[1:28 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Channel 8 news just reported:-
1. Majority of the people happy with the performance of our Government - under a gov survey.
2. However, people will like the government to do a little more help to:-
a. Keep HDB flats more affordable.
b. Keep inflation and price affordable.
I feel that this is a more reasonable and appropriate assessment of our current situation.
[1:29 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Yes
[1:37 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Public housing is microeconomics.
Inflation is macroeconomics.
Affordable Public housing and subsidies are serious social/political policies and policymakers must consider carefully and calibrate a sweet point to move forward into the unknown!
If unintended situations happen, it may become a 'checkmate'?
[1:40 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
As for SERs and VERs, will like government to simplify the explanation of its process, preferably in infographics form - and let the public understand - before we can have a more informed discussion on the scheme.
Currently the process is quite complicated and a scale too small to understand the SERs and the future VERs scheme.
[1:42 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: "A man (woman) with no own home is a person with no hope (aim) in life?"
- - anonymous
[1:43 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: FWG = Integrity
[1:59 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Welcome back anonymous quotes
[2:05 pm, 11/01/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In Parliament on 9 Jan (Mon), SMS for National Development Sim Ann explained to Non-Constituency MP Leong Mun Wai that the approach to the Ang Mo Kio Avenue 3 SERS exercise is consistent with that of past exercises.
π¬ What are your views about the debate on the SERS exercise? How can we continue to ensure access to fair and affordable housing options for Singaporeans?
Mr Leong had called the Ang Mo Kio exercise an “epochal event” in the history of public housing as residents had to top up to buy a replacement flat of the same size with a fresh 99-year lease, and said it was disingenuous of the Government not to admit as such.
Responding to Mr Leong's adjournment motion, SMS Sim Ann said the Government’s approach to the Ang Mo Kio Sers exerci…
[2:08 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: To me is the thinking of earning from SERS bringing the price up. Making goverment when recover also at higher price.
Give same years left is calculated move… but the size and price for the full years… the formal renew of the flat lease was out of goodwill.
I guess government expects more to come, hence come out with update in the SERS rules. To prevent old HDB from being over brought. Although the lease is short. Thinking that SERS they can earn back from it, at the same area.
[2:08 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Isn't it true?
Thank you, Andrew!
[2:09 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: ππππ€π
[2:09 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Next (Lagi satu)...
[2:09 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Do heard of people trying to spot SERS HDB to earn from the sales. And still get relatively good location. At lower priced and priority in choosing the house
[2:10 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: " HDB flat is a nest and this 'piggy bank' will be handy when old age arrives"
- - anonymous
[2:10 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: π
[2:11 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: In Leong's World?
Why don't compensate affected SERS residents with"renovation or moving out' subsidy from $40k to $60k? For those who opted for shorter lease period of 50 years should logically receive half the compensation. That's what perhaps many unhappy SERS residents and Mr Leong is championing, checkings and echoing these affected residents cause and concern?
[2:11 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: https://stackedhomes.com/editorial/is-it-worth-paying-a-premium-for-pre-post-war-flat-tiong-bahru-we-break-down-the-numbers/#gs.maq2wz
[2:11 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Yes
[2:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Ken, good afternoon!
These TB flats, for savvy buyers! Cheers!
[2:14 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: It shld not be brush off as some owner just wanna make profit. For those who want to make a huge profit from Sers is not really attractive and also be always bounded by HDB rulings. It is asking you to move your HOME. The extra compensation or priority selection of new flats do ease the inconvenience or emotional loss.
[2:15 pm, 11/01/2023] +Anselm: in my opinion,
majority purchase a HDB to be a forever home. majority purchase a HDB when they have an income and financially planned for it.
When SERS happen, and there is a substantial additional payment to be made, it disrupts people's financial planning. For the retired, where are they getting the money for the additional payment?
Those who have no income are now forced to move out of their home to a lower standard of living, and not at their own will.
I think it is correct that SERS should not be a free top-up of the lease. But I also think that it is just that HDB allows the one-to-one replacement without an additional top on the existing lease.
[2:16 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: The one to one most likely end up a smaller unit anyway. I think it is acceptable for govt to be 'generous' on that.
[2:20 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Anselm, good afternoon!
Good point raised on financial status during a person life journey. For the future, it is unknown.
Maybe one should adopt a prudent approach when finances are concern. Save abit for rainy days, just in case one needs money at a certain point in life for whatsoever unforseen situations.
That's life, never easy nor predictable too!
Thank you, Anselm!
[2:23 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Koh, Good afternoon!
A good and real observation.
Do these SERS residents feel short changed?
And how can we amend to meet at mid-point whereby all affected SERS residents will equalize as we move forward into the next SERS?
[2:26 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Moving also need money… and some may have renovated to fit their needs. Some form of inconvenience fee would be good.
But how to determine who needs, or is it fair think more study need to be done
[2:27 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Last time the income from SERS is good so not much complaints… but if the odds are not so much in favour. Some adjustment need to be made
[2:31 pm, 11/01/2023] +Singapore Maid Agency: Well said ππππππππππ it doesn’t make sense to me that the house is fully paid and they are old then u get them to move and pay be it whether they’re no long working or working TOTALL NO “SENSE”!!! LKY will never do such “senseless” thing!!!
[2:34 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: I believe most do short changed for the big changes like moving, smaller home and cost of reno etc. Most impt I think govt use stop using present valuation base on remaining lease as the main explanation of coming out value.
[2:35 pm, 11/01/2023] +K. Lim: agree on this. the selection of HDB estates for SERS by the government is entirely one-sided. homeowners do not get a say in being uprooted from their homes and homeowners would not understand the technicalities of land valuation and the impact on national reserves to appreciate the debate in parliament.
the basic compensation for SERS affected homeowners should be no worse off in terms of flat size and remaining lease.
the issue became muddled when the top up for a fresh 99-year lease for the replacement flat was given as the only option alongside buying resale. the option for the one-for-one replacement flat with a shorter lease without top-up should be been made the base option to provide assurance to affected homeowners from the onset.
topping-up for a fresh 99-year lease should only be optional for those who can afford it.
[2:36 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: As I get older.... my remaining 'lease' also lesser.. doesn't mean I love my home and Singapore lesser..
[2:38 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: I wonder what happen to family not enough saving for their retirement. Would HDB ask them rent flat instead owned a flat for SERS
[2:38 pm, 11/01/2023] +Singapore Maid Agency: sweet and short I fully paid for a house and u want me to
Move and pay again!!!!! To me this is nothing but nonsense sense!!!
[3:02 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: 11 January, 2023
"Tikam-Tikam?"
Fact: The land area of Singapore is 730 square kilometers. Every inch of land must be useful and relevant.
In this tighter space (aka Singapore), how can we meaningfully use these lands to house, to clean drinking water, to move around, to work, to school, and to recreate; all in all for 6 million people including visitors and tourists alike?
How is land use, the correct timing and the right price?
- - in progress - -
[3:03 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi 'Singapore', good afternoon.
"To each, own sweets and pains...!"
- - anonymous
[3:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Yeah
[3:36 pm, 11/01/2023] +L: Sounds like we all need better understanding of this process and how it works. Clearly people bought 100 year leases, or the remainder of the lease, and need somewhere to live when it expires. If the value of the property just decreases to zero, then what do they do? People might say they knew that when they bought it, but the reality is that there is no other option, other than renting your whole life (which is a worse option)
[3:38 pm, 11/01/2023] +L: At the same time, property needs refreshing and HDB can build higher properties to house more people (I hope they stop building smaller properties though). Maybe the revenue from building more properties in the same space can be used to house the people displaced? Not sure how this works.
[3:40 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Same goes for public housing! You may own the house but what happens after the land lease expires!? The late MM LKY once said a hdb is a asset but base on what interpretation!? Then MND KBW and even current DPM LW shocked singaporeans with their statements on public housing being a nest egg for old age!
[3:45 pm, 11/01/2023] +L: Yes, only if you bought a 70+ year lease I guess, and then nothing left to help your family after expiration!
[3:47 pm, 11/01/2023] +L: In some countries you have an automatic right to renew the lease, at a cost, although some leases can also come with hefty 'maintenance and service' charges which makes them prohibitive too.
[3:47 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Is the government considering this!?
[3:54 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Nothing is forever…
If it is forever, then wealth will just accumulate. The person who buy lots of them at early stage win.
We suppose to be a affordable housing. Investment was secondary.
When everyone take as investment the housing becomes away from reached π as everyone thinks it will only go up
[3:56 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi L,
Good to speak to a student.
Well, besides freehold homes, you are correct that value depreciates as time goes by. The simple rule of thumb is to not hold onto more than 38 years (closing into the 40th year) in a 100 years leasehold property.
The next buyer will find it harder to get a bank loan. Unless the buyer pays in full cash.
Hope you get a better sense of things.
Thank you.
[3:56 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Good analogy!
[4:02 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: But doesn't mean that HDB shldnt be an assets. And you can't buy many of them..
[4:02 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: The rules already set… 99 years… don’t assume they will renewed it at the end
[4:03 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: You buy knowing it is 99 years
[4:05 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: For me if I change will only be younger lease not older..
the min is till I die. Assume I die at 99 π.
I don’t expect to give my children the house.. just enough for me to stay. For them to grow up.
[4:07 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: I wish too die 99 better than to pay price and suffer run out of saving
[4:08 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Oh well… contribute Liao.. if life not fulfilling I don’t wish to be around π
I live my life, and time to go just go lor
[4:08 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: There will be no need discuss you mean ?
[4:08 pm, 11/01/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In Parliament on 9 Jan (Mon), SMS for National Development Sim Ann explained to Non-Constituency MP Leong Mun Wai that the approach to the Ang Mo Kio Avenue 3 SERS exercise is consistent with that of past exercises.
π¬ What are your views about the debate on the SERS exercise? How can we continue to ensure access to fair and affordable housing options for Singaporeans?
Mr Leong had called the Ang Mo Kio exercise an “epochal event” in the history of public housing as residents had to top up to buy a replacement flat of the same size with a fresh 99-year lease, and said it was disingenuous of the Government not to admit as such.
Responding to Mr Leong's adjournment motion, SMS Sim Ann said the Government’s approach to the Ang Mo Kio Sers exerci…
[4:09 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Err SERS is SERS… HDB lease expire is another topic… but how to change? π
You sign in expect they will extend?
[4:10 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: What if I am alive 99 year olds? It is damn cost and run out of dry contributions
[4:10 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: The problem is also the cost nowadays when our grand children purchase public housing at shocking prices! How will they afford if their salary is not above average!?
[4:10 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: On what basis? It will come in 50 years.. that’s another 4 to 5 generations of government
[4:10 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: If the lease the expire you think the house price will drop?
[4:11 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Of course lease will become no value
[4:11 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: When no new building or land… then means limited supply… it will go up even more
[4:11 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Downsize room
[4:11 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Rebuild on the same piece of land drives up cost.
[4:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Already down size in size π₯²
[4:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: How much divided population each Live unit
[4:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: New house are just tiny…
[4:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Like in Hong Kong!
[4:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Yes right it’s a small like tiny room
[4:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: I brought the first gen BTO, with size and decently new (20 years) π
[4:12 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Not yet… still a long way
[4:13 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: π
[4:13 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Or we may live like size inside the car 4 seat
[4:13 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: Or car park area
[4:13 pm, 11/01/2023] +Frankie Wee: What if you are alive 99 years
[4:13 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: My wife from HK. I go to the relative house lol… washing machine in the toilet. Living room/dining room plus work space all in one
[4:13 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: π
[4:16 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: For satisfactory compensation, Sers may learn from Enbloc for private ppty.
[4:19 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: We are on the way to that!
[4:20 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: But private don’t provide priority house picking… not really close in terms of package
[4:22 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: It provide enough to choose anywhere size and type. Some developer do offer priority and price discount.
[4:23 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Unlikely same area… and for sure more expensive π
[4:26 pm, 11/01/2023] +L: Glad you managed to speak to a student too! Is this the information he/she passed on to you?
[4:27 pm, 11/01/2023] +L: And bought the lease at age zero?
[4:27 pm, 11/01/2023] +Sh Koh: Isn't our new flat also.more ex. Could be same..but unlikely since it needs to be tear dn and rebuild and resident may already chosen some where to live.
[4:30 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: Sadly… very expensive… boon Keng area, BTO 300k++, sold 600k+
I don’t understand why also
[4:30 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: After 5 years..
[4:31 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: People even offer… and brought π
[4:31 pm, 11/01/2023] +Ken: 3 room flat
[4:32 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi L,
Learned from living and life lessons.
Regards
[4:32 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: Long term planning is impt. Every SC have 2 chance to buy subsidized HDB flats.
So is prudent to take account the age you buy at. Chances are, even if you only purchase one, you could still pass to your beneficiary.
[4:34 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Yes
[4:38 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi L, one more thing...
In addition to exchanging money as a transaction, the valuation of any tangible thing must include intangibles to derive a price.
It all adds up to the final figure of paying for this item aka Value!
We are all sharing ideas and learning.
Thank you!.
[4:41 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Uncle Law,
Well said and explained!
Prudence is the key to a peaceful mind and life journey too!
Thank you Uncle!
[4:43 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: "FOLO...Fear of Losing Out?"
- - anonymous
[4:44 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: π
[4:45 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Thank you Andrew!
Next (Lagi satu, akan datang...)
[4:45 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: π
[4:52 pm, 11/01/2023] +Jimmy Chew: I agree. What's was LKY intentions for HDB flat and SERS. Flats are getting smaller and cost getting higher. Who's profiting from all these?
[4:52 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Exactly who, do tell!?
[4:56 pm, 11/01/2023] +CH Poh Clinic: To who , everyone know . Haizzzz
[5:05 pm, 11/01/2023] +Shau: Talking about very different things. I believe the cost getting higher is cause of the calculations they use and inflation. We are land scarce and to maintain all the facilities and lovable space we have to make flats smaller.
Who is profiting you ask?
1. SERS
1.next generation benefits as new HDB can be built
2. Whoever bought the BTO and profits a little from the cash out or who is selling to others so they can get a chance at selecting the flat
3. The estate is rejuvinated if not you will have a lot of blocks hitting 99yrs and being taken back at the same time, creating ghost towns.
2. HDB flat (assuming you're talking about BTO )
1. Families who need cheaper subsidised housing and willing to wait for it to be built
2. The BTO owners who after MOP resell for a profit.
[5:23 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Shaun, good analogy!
Thank you!
[5:27 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Sample Case?
A senior age 75 years old. For the past 10 years has been drawing down from his CPF ordinary account of a monthly sum of $600 for his monthly living costs. Today his ordinary account is zerolised.
He lives in a 4rm flat and he has no intention to monetize his existing dwelling of over two decades and relocate to a 2rm flat or to sell a portion of the lease back to HDB nor he qualifies to rent a flat from HDB.
What's the reason for not monetizing his 4rm flat?
Simply, said this senior "should I sell back part of the lease to HDB, I will not get the lump sum. Instead, this sum of money will be divided over xx months!"
Why holding on to this sum of money?
To safeguard this senior from any losses from scam to spending spree. It sounds sensible, …
[5:37 pm, 11/01/2023] +RH: Very good example ...
A case after my own heart !
Hope Reach can hv an answer ....
[5:39 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi RH, good afternoon!
One more (Lagi satu)...
Thank you!
[5:40 pm, 11/01/2023] +RH: Hi hi ...
Everyone ...
π€ͺ
[5:40 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: "Turn Back The Clock"
More than thirty years ago, the average monthly salary of a worker in Singapore was $450/mth. After paying for a 4rm flat (estimated $28k) how much is left in this workers CPF ordinary, special and medical accounts by the age of 65 (assuming working till 65)? The top-tier civil servant paid was around $4,000/mth.
So what's left at the end of today, many seniors either make it successful with more than 1 property (rich) while many are not so lucky!
Many answers and many what ifs and should have and so on...
So the next time one happens to chat with a senior. Please ask how life has treated her/him?
Was it fate, or destiny, or simply unlucky?
- - in progress - -
[5:43 pm, 11/01/2023] +RH: We can exclude those who hv managed to get a 2nd pty.
As the issue here is with those who hv Less, not more.
And r limited / hv maxed out on their $$$, and are in their twilight years. And hv no one else to help or rely on.
Wat solution does HDB hv for this grp of ppl?
[5:44 pm, 11/01/2023] +RH: The HDB flat they own is all they hv.
Lease expiring as they age.
Wanna live in it till they pass on.
How?
[5:45 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi RH,
The vulnerable, no easy solutions but it's extintentially real...
Thank you!
[5:46 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Existentially real...
[5:47 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Counter arguments would be, the children of this aged Senior should help out?
Then comes what ifs?
[5:50 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Yes
[5:50 pm, 11/01/2023] +RH: What if no children ,
Or only child is not able to support, based on child's own financial situation (not earning enuff to support himself/herself).
[5:50 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: That's social service means criteria testing must focus on the individual needs.
[5:51 pm, 11/01/2023] +RH: Hmm ... π€
Wat if this senior is caught in-between?
Does not qualify for social welfare.
[5:52 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: For needy cases, up to nine months of grant, once expired need to reapply.
[5:53 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Monetize the flat...
[5:56 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: PLEASE read up on the concept of SYSTEMS DYNAMIC by a famous MIT professor and his team of researchers.
The conclusion of this decade long detailed analytical project, shall let the curious readers search for the answer!
(Hint: one simple big word)
[5:58 pm, 11/01/2023] +RH: Not an option ?
[6:00 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: "HDB flat is a nest and this 'piggy bank' will be handy when old age arrives"
- - anonymous
[6:03 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi Shaun,
The above fits your overall analogy. It still comes back to this 'safety nest'!
Thank you for the inspiration!
[6:04 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Hi L, sharing one thing with all of us...
"Never says it's impossible, think all possibilities and perhaps that is an ideal life that wakes up everyday with purposes and most of all, it must be meaningful !"
- - anonymous
[6:04 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: See if qualify for lease Buyback Scheme
[6:05 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: "you never know when will be your last day...?"
- - anonymous
[6:05 pm, 11/01/2023] +Uncle Law: Last resort seek help from MP
[6:06 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Exactly
[6:06 pm, 11/01/2023] +RH: I gtg ... Start work liao.
[6:06 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: If still unable, sell the flat and go rent from HDB. Go see your MP, never give up! Have faith in the system and your MP!
Quitter never wins...
[6:08 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Chat again, cheers!
[6:08 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Consider lease buy back
[6:09 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Good option, Andrew!
Thank you!
[6:09 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: π
[6:15 pm, 11/01/2023] +REACH: π’ Topic π’
In Parliament on 9 Jan (Mon), SMS for National Development Sim Ann explained to Non-Constituency MP Leong Mun Wai that the approach to the Ang Mo Kio Avenue 3 SERS exercise is consistent with that of past exercises.
π¬ What are your views about the debate on the SERS exercise? How can we continue to ensure access to fair and affordable housing options for Singaporeans?
Mr Leong had called the Ang Mo Kio exercise an “epochal event” in the history of public housing as residents had to top up to buy a replacement flat of the same size with a fresh 99-year lease, and said it was disingenuous of the Government not to admit as such.
Responding to Mr Leong's adjournment motion, SMS Sim Ann said the Government’s approach to the Ang Mo Kio Sers exerci…
[6:25 pm, 11/01/2023] +Anne: Dear G,
Many senior citizens would already have paid up their HDB flats in full and planned their retirements. When you ‘confiscate’ their flats under SERS, you disrupt their retirements, especially when you demand they top up to buy a replacement flat. HDB’s objective is to provide affordable housing to Singaporeans, but how can housing be affordable to all when you demand that retirees top up additional funds for their replacements flats? By ‘confiscating’ their flats, it is bad enough that you have disrupted their lifestyle, the retirees now have the additional headache of procuring additional funds when they are no longer working. Replacement flats may not offer the same conveniences as their existing flats.
Since it is the G who is the party that ‘con…
[6:45 pm, 11/01/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
[6:52 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
1. In private housing example leasehold 99 years condo or landed properties, to prevent lease decay and lease expiring, people will want
to enbloc.
While doing so, the lease will be renewed for another 99 years.
Also owners in enbloc will make a windfall as Singapore land is a premium, developers will bid very high price for the enbloc.
2. Similarly, for HDB flats 99 years, the lease will also decay and there is a need to renew the lease by rebuilding it.
The only difference is, HDB flats SERs or Vers - don't attract the windfall gain like the private enbloc.
This is the reason why many HDB owners are unhappy about SERs or Vers.
[6:53 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Good point
[6:53 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: "It has not changed our belief in the basic tenet that no man should exploit his fellowman. We believe it is immoral that the ownership of property should allow some to exploit others. But in order to get economic growth we have had to base our policies on the principle. "From each his economic best. To each his economic worth." The ultimate ideal "From each his best. To each his need" can only be relevant after we have moved away from ignorance, illiteracy, poverty, and economic backwardness."
- - PM Lee Kuan Yew, 6 May, 1965
[6:53 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
If HDB flats SERs and VERs got similar windfall benefits like the private enbloc - I think everyone will raise their hands, feet and head to support.
[6:53 pm, 11/01/2023] +Rama: Yup
[6:54 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: Freehold vs leasehold
[6:55 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Hence can only discuss in depth when more details like SERs and VERs emerged.
SERs are compulsory.
VERs are voluntary - voted by the HDB owners like private enbloc.
[6:56 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
But then SERs and VERs benefits older owners.
What about young couples who cannot benefits?
[6:57 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Unless inheritance are pictures in.
[6:58 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Those young couples without inheritance will be given grants.
[6:58 pm, 11/01/2023] ☸️ Danny εΏ:
Only then SERs and VERs can be successful.
[6:59 pm, 11/01/2023] +Smiley face: 11 January, 2023
To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members
"It has not changed our belief in the basic tenet that no man should exploit his fellowman. We believe it is immoral that the ownership of property should allow some to exploit others. But in order to get economic growth we have had to base our policies on the principle. "From each his economic best. To each his economic worth." The ultimate ideal "From each his best. To each his need" can only be relevant after we have moved away from ignorance, illiteracy, poverty, and economic backwardness."
- - PM Lee Kuan Yew, 6 May, 1965
"3 Big Things: Money, Money, Money (δΈε€§δΊ: ι±δΈε€η¨)?"
Overview:
Fact: The land area of Singapore is 730 square kilometers. Every inch of land must be usefu…
[7:00 pm, 11/01/2023] +REACH: Dear Contributors,
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan π
=====
No comments:
Post a Comment