REACH (Telegram) 79 - What are your views on LTA’s East-West-Line Disruption Report? What are your views on the efforts made to ensure the reliability of our public transportation systems?
(SK)
04 Jun 2025 (10am - 7pm)
REACH (Telegram)
REACH Singapore, [4/6/2025 9:50 am]
Dear Contributors,
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REACH Singapore, [4/6/2025 10:03 am]
๐ข Topic ๐ข
Rail operator SMRT will be fined $3 million for a major six-day disruption on the East-West Line (EWL) in September 2024, said the Land Transport Authority (LTA) on June 3.
In a report released on June 3, LTA said the lapses which led to the disruption included maintenance intervals being extended beyond stipulations, in part due to COVID-19 delays on new train arrivals. LTA also said that the penalty was “proportionate” to the circumstances of the incident, which crippled MRT services between Jurong East and Buona Vista stations and disrupted about one in six train trips daily.
๐ฌ What are your views on LTA’s East-West-Line Disruption Report? What are your views on the efforts made to ensure the reliability of our public transportation systems?
๐ Findings from the incident
LTA said degraded grease was likely to have caused a faulty part of a train’s undercarriage to fall out, which precipitated the disruption on the morning of Sept 25, 2024.
The part – called an axle box, which holds the train’s wheels to the axle, a rod connecting a pair of wheels – was dislodged near Dover station while the train was being withdrawn from service to Ulu Pandan Depot.
The six-car train could continue travelling as the other 11 bogies remained on the rails. But the derailed portion of the third carriage caused extensive damage to 2.55km of track and trackside equipment, such as power cables and the third rail, which supplies power to trains.
The axle box is held in place by chevron springs – metal plates bonded together by rubber that absorb vibrations when trains are operating.
LTA said its investigation findings suggest that the bearings had produced enough heat to ignite the rubber layers between the springs, causing them to disintegrate.
The axle box and bearings were badly damaged, and the grease in the axle box had been completely burned off when these parts were later recovered. Debris from the chevron springs was also too badly damaged for tests to be done to determine any initial damage before the incident, said LTA.
๐ Overheated component not picked up
LTA said this sequence of events was substantiated by a monitoring tool that SMRT installed near Lavender station, which detected a temperature of 118 deg C on the affected axle box earlier that morning – higher than the typical operating temperature of up to 65 deg C.
A system error, however, meant that SMRT could not identify the train on which the axle box was mounted, leading to a staff member mistakenly believing the notification to be a false warning. There was no follow-up action.
In a separate probe into the incident, Singapore’s Transport Safety Investigation Bureau (TSIB), a department of the Ministry of Transport, said it had considered two possible scenarios. However, TSIB said it could not determine which scenario was more likely to have occurred, owing to the severely damaged axle box and springs.
๐ Train no longer in use
The train in question, which is no longer in use, is a Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI) train.
At the time of the incident, the train had logged 690,000km since its last overhaul in July 2018.
During such overhauls, the axle box, bearings and chevron springs will be replaced where needed. Fresh grease will also be reapplied on the bearings.
Had the affected train been overhauled in a more timely way, the “condition of its axle box assemblies would have been checked and any degraded grease could have been replaced earlier”, LTA noted.
SMRT Trains president Lam Sheau Kai told reporters at a briefing that the operator’s overhaul regime has served it well over the last 38 years.
“What may have caught us off guard this time was the convergence of factors – delays in new train deliveries due to Covid-19, our efforts to balance and adjust overhaul schedules, and the lag in receiving critical spare parts,” he said.
๐ What SMRT, LTA did after the incident
After the incident, SMRT withdrew all KHI trains with a mileage exceeding 500,000km to undergo overhauls of the axle boxes, before they were returned to service.
REACH Singapore, [4/6/2025 10:03 am]
This was completed in October 2024. All 16 KHI trains that are still in service will be phased out by September.
SMRT also began tapping data analytics to detect abnormal axle box temperatures earlier. It resolved the system error with its temperature-monitoring tool, and strengthened procedures for staff to raise alerts about high temperatures in a timely manner.
It has also lowered the speed of trains being withdrawn to depots under similar scenarios to 35kmh, to limit potential damage to the tracks and trackside equipment.
SMRT is also reviewing how it approves changes to maintenance regimes.
As the owner of rail assets, LTA has beefed up its oversight of how operators manage assets, including their procedures to adjust maintenance schedules.
LTA said it is also engaging independent advisers to get advice on operations and maintenance strategies, as well as reliability improvements.
๐https://str.sg/DnFj
๐ https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/smrt-east-west-line-ewl-disruption-lta-3-million-fine-tsib-5163921
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์ฌ์์น๊ตฌ, ์ฒซ์ฌ๋ ๐, [4/6/2025 10:05 am]
Not the first time SMRT has been fined and nothing will change as long as it remains a private-public partnership.
์ฌ์์น๊ตฌ, ์ฒซ์ฌ๋ ๐, [4/6/2025 10:06 am]
I'm sure a lot of people know the SMRT sagas in the early 2000s. It has gotten better since then but I'm sure internal problems have continued.
์ฌ์์น๊ตฌ, ์ฒซ์ฌ๋ ๐, [4/6/2025 10:15 am]
As in we'll continue to see faults in this and that major breakdowns and all. It may become the norm in the future but we should never accept this standard as the norm.
365, [4/6/2025 10:27 am]
System error but there was no follow up. Is this a process issue? Why is there no escalation?
I'm just going off on a hunch here, as I am involved in monitoring and checking works in other industries, no evidence to prove my claim so take it with a grain of salt. But there is a possibility of the employee not escalating the issue because either there is no escalation path established, or he has been reprimanded for "disturbing" the next level.
There needs to be both a top-down and bottom-up approach to meet in the middle.
Top-down to come up with policies and establish escalation paths for deviations from expected processes.
Botton-up as the engineers are the ones doing the checks and have to report it upwards.
Not just ministry of transport, MOM has to come in as well to assure those on ground won't be penalized by SMRT, even if they were to report false positives, as long as there is sufficient reasonableness, such as deviations as seen in this case.
Not sure if this is established in SMRT, but 3rd party whistle-blowing should be implemented, not just for potential bribary or corruption, but also for unwillingness to perform appropriate follow-up works with any telltale signs that impact operations.
Kai Bin, [4/6/2025 10:43 am]
In my opinions to further improve rail reliability for the NSEWL, I would suggest to LTA and SMRT to accelerate the delivery and testing of the new Movia trains while phasing out the older first generation KHI trains at the same time.
Khai Mun L., [4/6/2025 10:58 am]
Any acceleration to bring in new trains should be balanced so that they are properly tested. Else they may break down quicker than the old trains..
E g. Thinking of old nokia phone that never break compared to newer models
RY, [4/6/2025 11:06 am]
I thought after the 2000s saga, SG govt already reviewed and learnt fm the Taiwan/Japan MTR system ?
The 2000s saga was bec the previous SMRT CEO was not focusing on train maintenance, and hence lead to many train breakdowns during that period ...he also step down bec of this
365, [4/6/2025 11:17 am]
SMRT CEO Saw Phaik Hwa resigns
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/smrt-ceo-saw-phaik-hwa-resigns.html
365, [4/6/2025 11:17 am]
This is the most prominent one I can remember
REACH Singapore, [4/6/2025 11:55 am]
Dear Contributors,
We want to HEAR MORE from you!
๐ฌ What are your views on LTA’s East-West-Line Disruption Report? What are your views on the efforts made to ensure the reliability of our public transportation systems?
We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Thank you!
Megan ๐
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 12:47 pm]
didn't read it..
off hand.. i expect such disruption to happen occasionally. not because the MRT team is not good.
It is because of the physical structural limitations when Singapore first build the MRT system.
If the section of the track need maintenance or upgrade it will has to be off line.
Thus, due to material amd structural " aging" disruption is inevitable.
adding on the software and digital upgrade, chance of disruption will increase.
and with the increase of new MRT lines..the issue will pile up as years go by.
Who ever managing MRT, including MPs, will be inevitably be an easy target to blame for the incompetency.
need to review a detailed renewal, maintenance and upgrading plan based on Singapore's MRT system and structural limitations.
.................
will read the reports then get back to you on feedback m
RY, [4/6/2025 12:48 pm]
SG is well known for our efficiency, however our train system efficiency is not at par ...
There maybe mistakes/breakdowns over the time since SG MRT started few decades - understandable
But we may learn from other countries whom train system breakdown is good eg Taiwan
Maintenance plays an impt part in any system operation
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 12:51 pm]
it is due to "aging", wear and tear, and material stress etc, of material and structure.
maybe has to learn from japan on how they maintain their system.
and derive a maintenance plan and system that suit Singapore with consideration to Singapore's unique limitation
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 12:55 pm]
the digital upgrade, software compatibility and integration is also another problem..
it is like integrating window 95 software with today's window system is totally impossible.
G, [4/6/2025 1:11 pm]
Under LKY time, such tardiness would never be tolerated.
Standards, quality, and expectations were much higher back then. Because as he said, things "just had to work".
Why should we accept lowered standards now?
Khai Mun L., [4/6/2025 1:12 pm]
I don't know if japan is the pure template we have to follow. Sg public is running on interval frequency whereas japan follow timing schedule.
Theirs can be an hour between bus, or 10mins between trains. Transport arrives punctual, but they must wait at bus stop until specific time before leaving.
Sg would specifc space for the bus to stop, and overall journey time will take longer for commuters
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:13 pm]
it is not about whose time.
when Singapore first build MRT... maintenance and upgrade was not included in the plan.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:14 pm]
we just have to make do with the current limitations and come out with a maintenance and upgrading with the least disruption as possible.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:18 pm]
i have no detail on Japan's system.
but their reputation for efficiency is there including maintenance..
the difference is that they have the land space for duplication. meaning when one side is in use for dual direction MRT operation, the other side is shut down for maintenance?
just guessing.
will have to research on Japan's MRT and Train system.
.....
unfortunately Singapore does not has the luxury of land space.
and the physical was build with current limitations, as maintenance and upgrade was not part of the plan when MRT was first built.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:21 pm]
so....it is "FFDC" , "fire fighting and damage control" on how to keep MRT disruption to the minimum.
Whoever is the CEO or MP handling this is sure to Work hard to justify their salaries.
365, [4/6/2025 1:24 pm]
What if the current breakdown was a spillover effect from the foundation built that worked at the time but then degraded because of how it was initially built?
I am not saying it is the case now, but sometimes you can inherit something that appears to work but is jank underneath that takes years before it surfaces.
G, [4/6/2025 1:24 pm]
Fare prices keep increasing, but standards keep dropping
More breakdowns
More frequent breakdowns
Longer breakdowns
How can this be acceptable?
As commuters, who cares about what internal KPIs that SMRT etc have if we can't get where we need to go at a time we need to arrive at?
Especially when so many depend on public transport, PHV getting more and more expensive because of fuel duties and GST.. don't even mention price of private transport
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:28 pm]
fare price increaseing because of operation cost, inflation, mateiral cost inflation, electricity, salaries, getting overseas expertise to come to Singapore of rectification and others.
couple these with the "aging" , wear and tear, of the MRT system, physical , and structural...
......
a big headache for CEO and MP.
........
RY, [4/6/2025 1:30 pm]
Agreed
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:33 pm]
the ceo of smrt cannot take the heat thus resign?
G, [4/6/2025 1:34 pm]
A lot of these are self inflicted costs:
Tax (GST, import etc)
Utilities
Lack of local expertise
Salaries
Too bad under saw, SMRT pivoted from an engineering / transport company to one that just look out for shareholder returns
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:43 pm]
maybe.
not sure what other businesses smrt is involved in. if mainly MRT....
then focus on it. Going to to ground as CEO, attempting to understand what are the constrain and difficulties of MRT maintenance, especially the physical structure parts of it.
Do not be afraid to gets the hands dirty on the ground.
.......
i am not sure if there is changes in the Japanese system.
those supervisors, managers and maybe CEOs started from the ground up.. they not afraid going to the ground to get their hands dirty.
because they start from the ground up, at time they knows more than the people on the ground.
any ..i have off track from the main topic.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 1:46 pm]
No, the Japan MRT (mass rapid transit (https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-vivo-rvo3&hl=en-SG&cs=0&sca_esv=41514daaec8f90aa&sxsrf=AE3TifPL7nbLlKPUw5C6Lm7ZF3TmUSbwrA%3A1749015884327&q=mass+rapid+transit&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhj9Pzh9eNAxW5zDgGHcn1HWAQxccNegQIAhAB&mstk=AUtExfCYpLdKtkMHGksOJCXTXz6Qc5euyKIQSQEj3ZGRjaxG-lDXikM4CpGYwf6KFsqIdEyYV1_MzzGjlQ-_-fzIfkisNYALKYMT2VDnCdT3_42TYiddFlYuCYxh5ZnnWGmUInJX5aOcGSfeVPv-1az9UfZO6mRz6zp6MI70ooPV5rjsDwQ&csui=3), also known as subways) doesn't operate without breakdowns or delays. While it's renowned for its punctuality and high standards, incidents can and do occur. However, these are relatively infrequent and the system is generally very reliable.
Here's a more detailed explanation:
High Standards:
Japan's train system, including MRTs, is known for its exceptional reliability and punctuality. This is due to rigorous maintenance, highly trained personnel, and a focus on precision.
Occasional Incidents:
Despite these high standards, breakdowns and delays do happen. These can be caused by various factors, including equipment malfunctions, weather conditions, or unforeseen circumstances.
Examples:
While it's not the norm, incidents like train derailments or delays due to weather can occur. There are also instances of specific stations being temporarily closed due to infrastructure issues.
Effectiveness of the System:
Despite occasional incidents, the Japanese MRT system is generally considered to be one of the most reliable and punctual in the world.
Source:- Google AI.
G, [4/6/2025 1:46 pm]
Then whoever took over, didn't put in enough effort and resources to understand the thing they took over enough so that enough efforts and resources can be put in place to address the underlying issues
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 1:47 pm]
No, Taiwanese MRT does experience breakdowns and incidents, although it's generally considered to be a reliable and efficient system. While there may not be frequent major breakdowns, there are occasional incidents that can disrupt service, including some incidents during the initial testing and pre-service testing of the Mucha line (https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-vivo-rvo3&hl=en-SG&cs=0&sca_esv=41514daaec8f90aa&sxsrf=AE3TifNpV7UDEVZHktKPbIcBJFRfwiySjg%3A1749015995677&q=Mucha+line&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqqumoiNeNAxVD1jgGHc2mD1oQxccNegQIBBAB&mstk=AUtExfBbk8ZqdwjX-X_WPxWi50gMDFzzsTPWAjlRFqlbf59gw-t1XfxzR8cYet0rhadz45rqUaQyChaO-bzlI4CC6RUL8IalCkp6AhP4LzOjCl9nH5iXaRdrqKeKOGhNB6Max1xAz1NJc9o-DRwnjVPfYuoIlP9KykeKCrFJVatPBjR3gXV85FeHb3tEsDhunknMxhPKiQbGyJ_WzATF9xdaBrMnaKmhbRO4Wv8PP9qAHK0VXe2SpQ2VJvtDktXOdqLAMu-Mh3orgc6G-dinJsEDRg_P&csui=3).
Here's a more detailed look:
Incidents During Testing:
The Mucha line, for example, faced several issues during pre-service testing, including cracks in beams, derailments, and railcar fires, which delayed its launch.
Occasional Breakdowns:
Even after the initial launch, the MRT has experienced minor breakdowns, according to Taiwan Panorama.
Safety and Reliability:
Despite these incidents, the city officials have assured riders that there have been no major safety incidents since operations resumed.
Modernization and Maintenance:
The Taipei MRT system is continuously being modernized and upgraded, with improvements to infrastructure and maintenance practices to ensure safety and reliability.
Overall Performance:
The Taipei MRT system is generally recognized as one of the best metro systems in Asia, known for its efficiency and reliability.
Source:- Google AI.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:47 pm]
i have respect for the people of Japan.
they treat their work seriously and with positive attitude...but it can be very very stressful
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 1:48 pm]
I am trying to find a MRT system in the world that will never breakdown.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 1:49 pm]
unlikely. lets be realistic. breakdown is part of nature...
just how frequent or infrequent only
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 1:50 pm]
Prompt :- Which MRT system in the world will never breakdown?
No. MRT system in the world is truly designed to never breakdown, as all systems are subject to unforeseen circumstances and potential failures. However, Singapore's MRT system is known for its reliability and high standards, aiming for a target of 1 million train-km between breakdowns, according to The Straits Times (https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/forum/forum-range-of-indicators-used-to-track-mrt-reliability&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwj41fzniNeNAxVzoWMGHbW8HWIQjJEMegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2qsOuw0xBRWnsSClGg2y8p). Despite this, disruptions do occur, as evidenced by incidents like the East-West Line disruption in September 2024.
Elaboration:
No system is perfect:
While Singapore's MRT system strives for high reliability, it is not foolproof, and breakdowns can occur.
Reliability indicators:
Singapore's MRT system uses metrics like "Mean Train-km Between Failure" (MTBF) to track reliability, aiming for a target of 1 million train-km.
Examples of disruptions:
Recent disruptions, like the East-West Line incident, highlight that even highly reliable systems are not immune to failures.
Continuous improvement:
Singapore's LTA (Land Transport Authority) and operators are continuously working to improve reliability and prevent disruptions.
Building Singapore's Mass Rapid Transit: The World's Best?
13 Sept 2021 — singapore has constructed one of the world's. ... and serving an annual average of 1.2 billion people Singapore's mass rapid transit is one of the r...
YouTube ·
Behind Asia
Source:- Google AI.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 1:51 pm]
https://youtu.be/5bNfz5yTI_A?feature=shared
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 1:55 pm]
In terms of density, most frequently used compare to the world MRT, Singapore MRT is considered the most well maintained and reliable in terms of breakdown vis-a-vis the world MRT.
No other MRT in the world are used so densely, thoroughly and so frequently in terms of density.
That's 1 million train-km is a record in the world.
Khai Mun L., [4/6/2025 1:57 pm]
Let's be realistic, percentage of breakdown vs total num if trips of singapore trains is very low already. Ppl are getting too spoilt already. Pay for what you get. The low transport cost vs what we get is considered very good already
Khai Mun L., [4/6/2025 1:57 pm]
Please take a look at new York's subway system then try complain about sg..
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 1:58 pm]
I was hoping I can find a country that run a MRT like a utopia, that never breakdown.
Hmmmm then we probably will not be living in the world of physic operating in not a mechanical, electrical world....
365, [4/6/2025 2:00 pm]
Why is it not the ones who initiated it didn't put in enough efforts to understand it as well? Being the ones doing they have be best visibility, also why proper handing over is so important. Especially such a large project, someone taking over can't possibly go and explore every nook and crany, and a system that has to keep on running with very little downtime available for them to perform maintenance.
365, [4/6/2025 2:06 pm]
People always bring up Japan and Taiwan, but do they have no breakdowns or is it just not reported internationally (because there is no reason to), and hence we don't hear of it?
Honestly, Singapore's mrt is probably within top 5, or at worst top 10.
365, [4/6/2025 2:06 pm]
Data shows Singapore MRT is more reliable than Hong Kong MTR
https://vulcanpost.com/872136/data-shows-singapore-mrt-more-reliable-hong-kong-mtr-for-several-years/
365, [4/6/2025 2:07 pm]
Comparison between Singapore MRT and hk MTR
365, [4/6/2025 2:08 pm]
The 2012 spat of incidents is so deeply entrenched in Singaporean minds that they can no longer fairly assess the number of breakdowns compared to the uptime.
REACH Singapore, [4/6/2025 2:08 pm]
๐ข Topic ๐ข
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:09 pm]
anyone visited SMRT during the night? maybe they have done their part in maintenance while the rest of Singapore are sleeping at night..
imagine how tough it is to start maintenance after the last train, 0100hrs?
then maintain any parts of the track before the morning operation starts
0500hrs
0100hrs to 0400hrs...how much or how little can be done within 3 hours?
i am slightly more generous, how about 6 hours of maintenance,
is it practical or is it demanding too much?
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:16 pm]
maintenance is an easy word to say.
lets say part of the track has problem need to be repair or replace.
is 3 hours really enough.
or smrt need to plan out a schedule ..certain stretch for the MRT track will be closed for maintenance.
for long term efficiency?
then Singaporeans should be prepared that for a week or 2 certain MRT station will be closed for maintenance as a norm.
365, [4/6/2025 2:19 pm]
https://deepnewz.com/japan/tohoku-shinkansen-coupling-failure-halts-services-cancels-111-trains-delays-166-f4ad4edf
https://evrimagaci.org/tpg/train-services-disrupted-in-tokyo-area-due-to-inspections-347219
Recent disruptions in Japan attributable to operator.
365, [4/6/2025 2:19 pm]
So really, before clamoring about how Japan have no disruptions and we should follow, maybe it's just that the news doesn't reach you.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:22 pm]
No, China's metro systems (https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-vivo-rvo3&hl=en-SG&cs=0&sca_esv=41514daaec8f90aa&sxsrf=AE3TifO2l3AJ5Rc5EJhEdc9c_RfUej2F2A%3A1749018097965&q=China%27s+metro+systems&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHw4iTkNeNAxUB2TgGHcCgLAMQxccNegQIAhAB&mstk=AUtExfCNQzXBsIxvNDIPnFXn3IJ5SESF7pXQHimLAQoiTjdUVnjxMy1oCyVP921H-S1QQTTYie0qlrRQyU2qbJ98LUMWo7NxHIDM6EVKg7HOvlK0Z9xvKfCPljN30Z3sIIZtHfvv6nUl69m8ntYZaCk7zzG9ShpPTEGc8MNyhB7CBx3_MMAEeTscnDdMRYimRAK_uXnHm9r1visKL-u7Y4x8OjUuixSCYg45Nnuk7sw6gKCbA_ipeuVZiQC6SmsXIFvf-BEcUUF_u3JSwg1hMgGA0t_D&csui=3) (including the MRT) are not immune to breakdowns. While China has a vast and complex network of high-speed and conventional rail, incidents of breakdowns occur, as they do with any large transportation system.
Here's why:
Complexity:
China's extensive railway network, including the Chongqing Metro (https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-vivo-rvo3&hl=en-SG&cs=0&sca_esv=41514daaec8f90aa&sxsrf=AE3TifO2l3AJ5Rc5EJhEdc9c_RfUej2F2A%3A1749018097965&q=Chongqing+Metro&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHw4iTkNeNAxUB2TgGHcCgLAMQxccNegQIGBAB&mstk=AUtExfCNQzXBsIxvNDIPnFXn3IJ5SESF7pXQHimLAQoiTjdUVnjxMy1oCyVP921H-S1QQTTYie0qlrRQyU2qbJ98LUMWo7NxHIDM6EVKg7HOvlK0Z9xvKfCPljN30Z3sIIZtHfvv6nUl69m8ntYZaCk7zzG9ShpPTEGc8MNyhB7CBx3_MMAEeTscnDdMRYimRAK_uXnHm9r1visKL-u7Y4x8OjUuixSCYg45Nnuk7sw6gKCbA_ipeuVZiQC6SmsXIFvf-BEcUUF_u3JSwg1hMgGA0t_D&csui=3), Beijing Metro, and others, has a significant number of trains, tracks, and stations, increasing the potential for equipment failures.
Operational Issues:
While China has a good safety record, breakdowns can still occur due to various reasons, such as issues with power supply, communication signals, or line equipment.
Real-World Incidents:
Reports indicate that breakdowns have happened in China's metro systems, such as incidents in the Chongqing Metro and Beijing Metro, where passengers have been trapped.
Source:- Google AI
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:23 pm]
I hoping to find miracle in China being the newest, very complex MRT system.
But no miracle.
Breakdown do occur.
RY, [4/6/2025 2:25 pm]
Any machine system will sure have breakdown, hence it is impt to have routine maintenance in order to minimise the chances of breakdown
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:25 pm]
the way to have close to miracle, is to have duplicate system.
while one is in operation then other is in maintenance.
and hope that both system will not break down together at the same time
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:26 pm]
eve if there is maintenance, break downs will still happen
RY, [4/6/2025 2:27 pm]
That is why maintenance is to minimise the chance of breakdown
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:28 pm]
i prefer maintenance and duplicated system..
but even so...break down will still occurred when both systems breakdown at the same time
365, [4/6/2025 2:28 pm]
In land-scarce Singapore, it is a luxury to do so. And even if we want to commit the resources, it'll cause a lot of disruptions, needing to inspect thr land, dig the ground, close up sections of roads, etc...
The closest we have right now, is bus routes running alongside the mrt stations, which historically has been provisioned for in cases of disruptions.
RY, [4/6/2025 2:30 pm]
SG MRT also quite complex, as SG expanding more and more lines from the initial Red/Green lines
Further there are both old and new systems concurrently in operation - as per SMRT
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:30 pm]
i know...so a different why of maintenance must be planned.
for a certain number of days, the track between 2 stations will be closed for thorough inspection and maintenance.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:30 pm]
and Singaporean must treat this as the norm
365, [4/6/2025 2:32 pm]
Maybe this is the way to go, but has to be announced way ahead of time. Or alternatively, maybe not close for 2 days, but earlier closure time and later opening time which has been done before. The amount of disruption this causes is much lesser, but of course may not have the same efficacy as a full closure.
RY, [4/6/2025 2:32 pm]
So far fm my travelling experience, Japan Metro is the most complex
Whereas Russia Metro is also one of oldest train system
G, [4/6/2025 2:32 pm]
Whoever is in control at the moment should bear the responsibility. They make the decisions so they bear the responsibilities. If they don't want this responsibility, then don't take the job.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:33 pm]
Duplicated lines are being built.
Hence if 1 route breakdown, take another route.
That's why Singapore MRT system is the world densest.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:34 pm]
really? why it doesn't seem to feel like there is one?
365, [4/6/2025 2:34 pm]
So the ones who went in prioritising short term gains and long term losses get to just toss the responsibility to the next one, sounds wonderful.
365, [4/6/2025 2:36 pm]
Is sort of parallel, but might be a bit far apart for Singaporean's expectations.
Parts of TEL and NSL, from Woodlands to cbd area.
Parts of DTL and EWL, especially eastern side.
RY, [4/6/2025 2:36 pm]
Fm my understanding, Japan/Taiwan Metro are quite well maintain with the least breakdown incidents
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:36 pm]
Someone ask me who on earth can handle MRT system with no breakdown.
I told her, you can't find one on Earth.
You need to find some above our head - those that can fly and perform magical divine power that can do magic and ensure no mechanical and electrical parts won't breakdown.
Because any CEO will get fired every time something happens to the MRT.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:36 pm]
Compare to Singapore density, both countries are not close to us.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:38 pm]
Yes, not exactly parallel which Is too costly, but have more than 60 - 70% redundancy.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:38 pm]
I got a better suggestion.
Make MRT CEO like a roving chair.
Every year change 1 CEO.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:39 pm]
no leh...the breakdowns and disruption doesn't seems like the "redundancy" is there, nor it seems the redundancy is working to reduce disruption
RY, [4/6/2025 2:40 pm]
Who would like to take up such role and be fired later ... SG dont have Trump, wor ๐ฌ
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:40 pm]
Both my son and my close friend child take the red route or orange route to get to NUS and Buona Vista and bypass the green line.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:41 pm]
aiyo...this redundancy...? ok... acceptable for me.
not sure about others
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:42 pm]
If parallel route for every line - very expensive - more GST, more taxes.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:43 pm]
more maintenance also..
and Singapore does not has the land space
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 2:44 pm]
Yes
365, [4/6/2025 2:47 pm]
Regarding cost, we are definitely cheaper than Japan (my lived experience while on exchange program in Japan) while earning a higher median salary. I'm not sure we compare to Taiwan after accounting for PPP, but I reckon we should be pretty close.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:50 pm]
wait and pause.a moment.
we exchanged so many things.
did we address what the admin wanted?๐
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 2:53 pm]
1 break down 1 day of free commute. I think this will be better
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 2:56 pm]
7 day of break down 7 days of free commute on non breakdown days
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 2:57 pm]
cannot lah. SMRT Still has to pay fines from the government. and suffering losses during breakdown and free commute... should we will be buying bicycle and cycle to work. because SMRT goes bankrupt
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 2:59 pm]
Then no need fine. I think this is more painful
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 2:59 pm]
Commuters will be happy
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 3:00 pm]
Singaporean well known happy for free things.
singular ( me)
365, [4/6/2025 3:00 pm]
I've addressed it above, earlier on. Focusing on this particular incident, a better escalation path for the on ground workers to the management level is required, without fear of any repercussions.
The crux is on why the worker see that there's a system error, the falsely assume that it's a false warning. Is it he chose to not report it or there is currently no process in place for him to report it? If he chose not to report it despite there being an established process, is it because he fears repercussions or is it really an individual issue with work ethics and attitude?
Instead of trying to find just the root cause from an engineering perspective, also find the root cause on why it went undetected despite the system showing a warning.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 3:02 pm]
basically develope a governance culture of problem solving not finger pointing (blaming games)
365, [4/6/2025 3:02 pm]
Smrt is not the only operator, then you're punishing other operators for one's folly. Also not realistic to target just Smrt lines, ppl transfer and board lines from different operators with a single point of entry and a single point of exit.
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 3:02 pm]
Then smart covers the cost
365, [4/6/2025 3:03 pm]
Yup, this is important, because top-down and bottom-up are both needed. Come together to resolve the problem.
365, [4/6/2025 3:03 pm]
Bottom-up has a clearer understanding of the issue, top-down has a wider view of the operations and can steer necessary changes.
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 3:03 pm]
For such big breakdowns I think can do such Punishment
365, [4/6/2025 3:04 pm]
Essentially, a fine for smrt
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 3:05 pm]
that is why better to be self employed like driving taxi and learn to be profitable and making a livelihood from Trading.
Probelm solving culture is a rare oasis.
if you happen to be in that company, stay with it until retirement
Khai Mun L., [4/6/2025 3:05 pm]
Aiya, i see others online keep saying punishment. What they want? Execute entire public transport team by firing squad ar? Then who do the job? Especially when nothing won't breakdown over time
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 3:06 pm]
Which goes back to the commuter which people will feel happy and no one complain
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 3:06 pm]
If not people don't feel the difference
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 3:06 pm]
talk is cheap...that is why Singapreans are world reknown complain kings and queens๐
365, [4/6/2025 3:07 pm]
Hopefully this gets taken back, MoT side not enough, corporate governance may need to involve MoM as well. And seeing how it's a public service, I think such a far reaching arm from the government, despite it technically being a private entity now, is justifiable.
Joomua Tng, [4/6/2025 3:08 pm]
haha...are you sure Singapore agencies practicing problem solving cultures?
Jun Ming, [4/6/2025 3:08 pm]
And smrt will feel the pain and reduce such breakdown
365, [4/6/2025 3:08 pm]
One can hope
365, [4/6/2025 3:11 pm]
Smrt ceo renumeration is 1.8mil for 2024, while the previous year is 2.3mil.
DTL averages 8 mil km per disruptions, the longest between all lines. Maybe we can peg their renumeration to the average km per disruption for lines under their operations, $1 to 4km
365, [4/6/2025 3:12 pm]
Again, it's a bit far reaching as smrt is technically a private entity, but being a public service warrants it.
RY, [4/6/2025 3:24 pm]
I concur too
Why this staff choose not to bring up ? What is SMRT SOP ?
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 3:37 pm]
1. Particularly, I noted in the REACH text that SMRT intending to use data analytics to examine the monitoring data collected - to pinpoint whether faults are likely to occur.
2. I applaud such move - as it will help to overcome human fatigue on overwhelming data prompted by monitoring tools - and likely to overlook warning signs.
3. Drawing from experience in IT monitoring system, every day, we will received hundreds of warning sign - orange and sometimes red icon pinpointing likely IT systems problem.
Such signs in technical terms , uses SNMP (Simple Network Management Protocol) MIB to indicate whether an IT system devices are working normally, malfunction, fails, shutdown or indication of break-in or unauthorised access.
Sadly, more than 80% to 90% of the time are either false negative or false positive.
4. Red signs will immediately look into because it indicate failure as SNMP will poll every say 10 minutes (depending on setting) - that the IT device or system is not responding.
5. More tricky one are the yellow warning icons - that the IT device or system could experience momentary stop or traffic congestion - but still flag as yellow warning sign - triggering a false negative or false positive even though it continue to function properly thereafter.
6. Hence over time, when human investigate (over hundred such yellow warning icons per day) - will soon grow fatigue especially when tests show that there are no problem to the devices and function normally except for the momentary stoppage or unresponsiveness at that moment in time due to congestion.
Humans will tend to ignore warning signs every day -- because there are so many everyday.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 3:46 pm]
7. Hence, employing AI data analytics - to pull all relevant data together - and do analysis, produce charts, graphs automatically everyday - and highlight likely problematic areas --- will be very helpful to help humans to do analysis, as it help to make realistic predictions and highlight problematic areas.
8. Because AI data analytics will take into account:-
a. Maintenance records
b. Age of the the IT devices
c. Occurence of warning sign flash by each IT devices
d. Likely problems highlight by the SNMP MIB data - that trigger the yellow warning sign.
e. Correlate to best practices, likely fault and troubleshooting guides draw from the Internet or manufacturer's recommendation and guidelines
f. Plus many other data draw from LLM (Large Language Model)
9. This AI data analytics will go a long way to tackle human fatigue and overwhelming yellow warning signs daily - due to false positive, false negative or true negative or true positive ---- and pinpoint likely problem - do maintenance and replacement before fault occurs.
I think this will make our MRT breakdown records go further down to as little breakdown as possible if not zero (which is impossible to achieve in a mundane world).
365, [4/6/2025 3:47 pm]
I'm also in IT monitoring. We counteract this issue by properly fine tuning the rules to reduce such false positives.
My experience was that we still do the proper triaging for them, at the same time using AI to further help us sieve out the false positives. Details are shown and arranged in an easy to understand format to speed up triaging.
We may attend to different cases with different levels of urgency due to their difference in pre-determined severity levels, but never just skimp past them and assume, although this used to be the culture until there's a change in management.
If the analysts are stilling experiencing alert fatigue, then perhaps more analysts could be hired.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 3:51 pm]
Yes.
REACH Singapore, [4/6/2025 4:01 pm]
๐ข Topic ๐ข
Khai Mun L., [4/6/2025 4:11 pm]
I'm still no onboard the AI trend. But it's a simple monitoring system, no AI required.
But as someone brought up, we are restricted by maintenance time period. Especially when more mrt lines are built and extended, how to ensure every single piece is checked?
Suggest extending closing hours or announce scheduled downtimes during off peak periods
Monitoring would help to narrow down the component or area having fault, but still need a person to manually go down to verify and replace parts
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 4:12 pm]
Monitoring system and AI helps to predict and reduce problems.
But not 100% foolproof.
365, [4/6/2025 4:19 pm]
AI can help to find trends, patterns, anomalies, and format it nicely. Basically, it should be used as an enhancement to existing processes and not override the decision making and accountability of analysts / engineers.
The raw information available before implementation should still be available, it should just act like an assistant.
365, [4/6/2025 4:20 pm]
There's 2 sides of extreme now, one side that wants to replace everything with AI and another which fully rejects AI. Middle ground is to use AI to enhance efficiency, and not replace.
LCL (Danny ๅฟ), [4/6/2025 4:26 pm]
Should view AI like a tool to help us.
Just like when computers are invented, we use computers as a tool to make our job more effective.
They are not meant to replace humans.
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