REACH (Telegram) 52 - What are your thoughts about the results of the 2024 Polytechnic GES? What more can be done to continue ensuring desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates?

(SK)

15 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 9:48 AM]

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REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 10:00 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

On 13 Jan (Monday), the 2024 Polytechnic Graduate Employment Survey (GES) results were released, revealing that polytechnic graduates received higher salaries despite a fall in employment rates.

💬 What are your thoughts about the results of the 2024 Polytechnic GES? What more can be done to continue ensuring desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates?

Higher Salaries

A total of 7,614 out of 10,045 fresh polytechnic graduates responded to the survey as graduates were asked about their employment status as at Oct 1, 2024 – about six months after graduation. 

The median gross monthly salary of Polytechnic Graduates in full-time permanent employment grew to $2,900 in 2024, up from $2,800 in 2023.

Notably, graduates from health sciences, humanities and social sciences, and information and digital technologies reported the highest salaries, with each of these clusters seeing a median gross monthly salary of about $3,000.

Lower Employment Rates

50.4 per cent were in the labour force, while 48.9 per cent who were not actively looking for jobs were either pursuing or preparing to begin further studies. Of the rest, most said they were not seeking employment. 

Of graduates in the workforce, 87.5 per cent found permanent, freelance or part-time jobs within six months of graduation or after completion of full-time national service, a drop from 92.7 per cent in 2023 and 91.8 per cent in 2022. 

In a Facebook post about the 2024 GES results, Dr Maliki Osman, Second Minister for Education, said that the 2024 GES results “speak volumes” about the value of Singapore’s polytechnic education.

“While we are seeing some shifts in employment patterns, with more graduates opting for further studies, it’s encouraging to note that our graduates are commanding higher salaries across various sectors,” said Dr Maliki.

In a statement, Mr Soh Wai Wah, principal and chief executive of Singapore Polytechnic, said: “Given the evolving job landscape, we are actively working to equip our students with the necessary skills and adaptability to navigate this well. “This includes strengthening industry partnerships to provide real-world experience, integrating AI (artificial intelligence) literacy into our curriculum, and enhancing career guidance and support services,” said Mr Soh.

👉🏻 https://str.sg/H6X3

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Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 10:05 AM]

Reasons why Singaporean birth rate is low

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:27 AM]

Has the pay kept up with inflation?

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:27 AM]

Or cost of bto?

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:31 AM]

2900 / 2800 = 3.7% increase

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 10:38 AM]

You do know that if pay increase too much, inflation also rises? Business have to charge more to pay the staff

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 10:38 AM]

Hmm, please elaborate. Which of the observation are you referring?

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : 1. I am confident that the Government is doing enough to ensure desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates. Please share the reason for your answer in the chats! ]

- Yes

- No

- Neutral

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 11:03 AM]

[ Poll : 2. I believe that Polytechnic education is sufficient to ensure desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates. Please share the reason for your answer in the chats! ]

- Yes

- No

- Unsure

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:22 AM]

Employment is not guaranteed and university have no placement. So a huge percentage left with nothing to do

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:22 AM]

And become 啃老

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 11:26 AM]

Hmm, not understand how that links to birth rate. But ok, up to you

Nicholas, [15/1/2025 11:29 AM]

Are polytechnic students encouraged to go to university or to go straight to work? Recall university fresh graduates have a higher average monthly salary of approximately S$4k.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 11:29 AM]

Back to the topic, could it be graduates are selective in the jobs they want?

I observe there is a lack of blue collar workers e.g. plumbers, technicians, drivers. But locals not applying.

Are they comparing with the high paid jobs and holding out just for chance? Perhaps these hold-outs have good background and family support whereby they have resources to wait things out

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:43 AM]

Those are more technical skills which I think are more suitable for ite. it is also depends on course and industry. Some courses such as science requires degree

W Goo, [15/1/2025 11:44 AM]

Unless the blue collar job are peg in par or better than white collar (in term of wages and career ladder). 

So yes, they are being selective, but with a reason (We can ask ourselves now. Would we change to blue collar job now).

Gov intervention is never enough. There's balancing need to be done every now and then. So far so good but foresight is need.

TreasureHunter, [15/1/2025 12:59 PM]

Govt did put a lot of effort to spot the future economy. And to be ready for the workforce of the future, education are ready in place. For that I voted yes in Q1. The education in Poly would say is of good quality but in an open job market where your competitor could be a uni grad from another country could make poly grad lose out. For that I voted no in Q2

Dr. Goh, [15/1/2025 1:13 PM]

Poly education not enough for higher end jobs. Training students to do repetitive technical work essentially. The decades old problem of suppressing pay because employees don't have degrees is still existent.

If you also observe job listings many employers play the chicken and egg game. Need long list of experience to qualify for an entry job, so no one who upgrades or switches field can ever qualify. Then likely to bring in kakilang for the job.

Even if you place a hard quota on hiring the country will still run smoothly. Employers are simply playing the lowball game knowing government will support them.

Also, to prove that foreign talent policies actually work, try not giving out grants for supporting jobs for new citizens, see how many of them are talented enough to keep the companies rooted here. Must test real ability, not give out tax dollars like freebies and then create the falsehood that we actually bring in many real talents. Put in hard quota for hiring local born as a significant percentage of payroll to qualify for grants. We don't need to waste money keeping companies that don't want to contribute. Many jobs just need you to have that title. The roles are not difficult at all and the experience will basically qualify people for other similar roles based on experience alone. You could press a button on AI and many of these jobs will disappear today.

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 1:35 PM]

This is why gov needs to expand uni placements to ensure every student can get into it

A lot of jobs need degree as an entry level and low end job hardly have a future. 

If you work as a plumber you will always be plumber. Hardly your career path can bring you to top management and value add in the knowledge compared to a accountant which have more career path and longer runway

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 1:38 PM]

For poly look at life sciences course a lot of the jobs required to have a degree

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:00 PM]

I not agree with 'every student can get into uni'. Dilutes the standard and purpose of degree. If everyone degree then what's the point of it? Next time must aim for masters?

Also, being a plumber might not mean want to move into management roles. You could become a specialist in certain pipes/taps and charge more based on those repair/installation.

Or jack up your asking prices because there's no competition. One of the reasons why maintenance stuff so expensive now.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:02 PM]

Also, blue collar jobs have some degree of freedom. Plumbers could set their own appointment times, decide to accept the task or not etc. 

Kind of why ppl want to be grab drivers or delivery. Freedom of choice and working hours

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 2:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:06 PM]

Currently, why are we importing degree holders? Do we want to force singaporean into a diploma so that thier foreign bosses have a singaporean to supervise? Why do we give place to foreign students if our locals have no room?

Would the standard of the degree drop because we let more people in? Surely there is a way of accounting for that. Employers already differentiate between an A student and those below

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:08 PM]

So the question of if every singaporean has a degree. Look at what we are doing now. Do we have singaporean laborers or maids. DO We want that? Of course not. We know what we need to do if every singaporean is highly educated

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:10 PM]

We also know what companies will do whenever they complain 'not enough local talent'

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:13 PM]

Remember, we are competing internationally. And a hugeee portion of our workforce arent singaporean. If every singaporean has a degree, job placement will be filled up via import

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:16 PM]

Every Singapore to have a degree? Some people do not do well with theory based learning, which most degrees are. Force them to take degree just to flunk them at the end?

There's no specific way of differentiate between grades. I know of some uni holders that have bad work attitudes etc. whereas a poly grad could be more hardworking and technically better.

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:17 PM]

Im not saying to force them, but to remove the artificial cap

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:18 PM]

Since competing globally, we need to be strong in what we're good at. Some are more skills based, others research, or programming.

Opportunities have to be provided for them, if they want, to be trained and specialize in what they want to be good at.

Instead of forcing them to degree pathway

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:19 PM]

In fact, these days we Must encourage more people in your uni. You know what happens to your precious degree when the uni has not enough students. Because of declining pop, the uni has a real risk of shutting down

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:19 PM]

What artificial cap are you referring?

Uni places or work permit quotas or something else?

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:23 PM]

Uni has limit the admissions so there is enough space but from what i see, there is still plenty of space, especially with hybrid virtual these days

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:24 PM]

And we are still taking in foreign student. Now they might be the cream of the crop(i doubt it) but its an indicator that there is room not used for developing locals

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:37 PM]

Is Singapore still trapped in the qualification trap attitudes?

Degree qualifications may gives the person a head start. doesn't mean it will be smooth sailing or successful career with high paying pay cheques.

......

assuming, every Singaporean is academically good and able to obtain degree qualifications...

how is all of them going to be CEO? managers?

Cleaners? Sales like insurance agent, bankers? Hawkers?

..............

What about entrepreneur? business starters? it is about individual's will, attitude, determination and drives to make it good or great in life.

how to sell oneself, advertising, branding and positioning in the competitive market out there.

...........

and yes, we need foreign students, so that hopefully those talented willing to contribute to Singapore's progress.

it is a competitive world, internationally. Cannot be a frog in the well thinking we can live comfortably without a good fight for employability, and, or, starting of businesses, creating jobs, and new jobs for Singapore.

......

the problem with some Singaporean, is that a portion of us lagging behind in competitiveness, competency and capabilities, and still want that high paying job.

stop complaining and start working hard, as in using our brains thinking of ways to get that dream job with good pay by upgrading, self improvement, self branding etc.

while doing so...the government must continuous monitoring the ground to deter discrimination, monopolizing of workplace with unfair recruitment practices.

Like tribalism recruitment...the so called, for e.g only, indian hiring indian not because of abilities assessment, but because they are indian, or Chinese hiring chinese only.

does such unfair hiring exist... realistic it does exist.. but to detect it and proves it...is not an easy straight forward task.

..........

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:41 PM]

If open uni to all sg that wants, then why current students still want to go ivy league unis? Even though they can go local uni?

Is it a matter of prestige because they have restrictions and companies want to hire them because they are hard to enter?

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:44 PM]

Singaporean still stuck in the thinking that degree qualifications = confirmed employability with high paying jobs.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:45 PM]

I don't know what would happen to open all? Could it become like compulsory secondard education, whereby that cert is almost useless for workplace

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:46 PM]

Mistake, should be primary school cert

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:48 PM]

it will lower the quality... eventually.

 if the standard is not uphold with strict criteria.

it doesn't mean anyone have a degree can contribute to society...

or able to compete internationally.

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:52 PM]

Chicken an egg problem. We are trapped in degree qualification because of employers. If you see public service stop asking you will see less people trying to get degree

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 2:56 PM]

Because a lot of jobs that one desire needs a degree

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:56 PM]

A lot of job placements ask for a degree. But really doesnt need it

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 2:58 PM]

*Pathway to Universities*

1. There are 2 pathways to Universities, 

a. the main pathway is through JCs (provide a solid foundation in math, science such as physics, chemistry, biology, computing and GP to cultivate critical thinking skills and appreciation of national and global development) - in preparation for entrance into Universities on industry specialization at higher level/R&D.

b. the secondary pathway is through polytechnics (focus in industry specialization) - in preparation for entry into workforce upon graduation.

2. The reason why polytechnics is created is because there are middle roles like technicians, junior engineers and technical roles that needs hands-on implementation skillsets that is immediately relevant to the needs of the organisation.

3. Universities produce graduates that can work at strategic level, management role, engineer and senior engineer level, able to do critical thinking, think out of the box and connect dots to appreciate a bigger picture in which the organisation operates (eg. understand the organisations customers, partners, supply chain, competitive landscape, oppportunities and threat, growth potential, technological advantages, R&D potential for new market, comparative advantage, competitive advantages etc)

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 3:01 PM]

unfortunately, or fortunately,

Degree Qualifications is a measure of a person's abilities, organization skills, leadership, capabilities...

provided the education system is properly designed and uphold.

.....what other ways to measure a person's abilities, quality, capabilities and leadership?

i can think of one. place a person on a task, deep end of the pool, and see how the person perform. what is the outcome of the task.

ultimately, in the commercial market... result is what matters.

without result, e.g. profits, so what the person has a degree qualifications...the company will definitely replace the person with someone else who can produce results.

other than that...what other ways to effectively measure a person, beside qualifications.

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 3:32 PM]

1. Recall a team of well trained technical engineers - jump straight into design and produce a technical sound design and technical solutions with BOM (Bill Of Materials) to bid for a tender.

2. 3 other competitior tenderers already has a "leg" to this organisation - as each has win previous tenders and run a module through 1 data centre.

3. This 4th tenderers is a "black horse" - new to the organisation - and has no incumbent advantage.

4. All the 4 tenderers need to submit a solution with 2 data centres.

5. The 4th tenderer need to provide 2 data centre solution, whereas the 3 incumbent need to provide 1 data centre solution and extend their existing systems.

6. Hence the 4th tenderer is in a very big disadvantage - because if it provide similar traditional solutions - prices will be highly uncompetitive as compare to the 3 incumbent tenderers.

7. A solution architect come along to join the tender bid. The 1st thing he did is to tell the team of competent engineers - "throw away your design and BOM" - because you will lose the tender if based on your design - because the 3 tenderers will beat you hands down - as your price will be twice the cost of your 3 incumbent competitors - if you focus on the traditional design.

8. What is the point of diligently producing the design - just "going through the motion" - and lose in the end - to show you do your job?

9. You must design to win - and beat all the 3 incumbent tenderers - and your design must be one that :-

a. Competitors has never seen or design before.

b. Reduce 2 data centre footprints into 1 data centre footprint - but distribute into 2 data centre at a similar cost like 1 data centre.

c. Compute for what will be the cost of all the 3 competitors - using traditional design - and ensure the new design will be lower than theirs.

d. Ensure the new design is light weight, highly versatile, resilient, no single point of failure, highly scalable, and highly upgradeable --- as the "selling point" that will differentiate from the 3 competitors.

10. In the end, the solution architect come out with such design - that beat the 3 incumbent competitiors in prices, in design - and set a benchmark for the organisation for future tenders for such design.

The 3 incumbent competitors fall off the chair - as they rule out the 4th tenderer as a "joker" that cannot win - just to make up the number.

And in the end, the whole IT industry 轰动 for pulling such "mission impossible feat".

11. This is what local Universities of "Ivy League" qualities should produce such graduates - to make Singapore competitive.

12. Not only producing Universities graduates for the sake of quantity and number - but high quality graduates that are competitive and can compete with the World.

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 3:38 PM]

nice story. real incident?

ideally that's what qualifications should be. Be it diploma or degree.

ideal condition seldom exists in real life.

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 3:41 PM]

Of course real story - not make up.

Else how to relate such story.

One competitor is a global overseas competitor.

Beating it make the competition world class.

Anyway that design is the 1st in the world that produce at such a scale - at that time.

In fact, at one point, critics voice whether such design can work or scale or not.

A proof of concept was implemented within 2 weeks to convince the customer that is can scale and highly versatile and yet cost effective.

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 4:06 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 4:10 PM]

alright. 

...

a something to note and remind ourselves...when it comes to competitiveness, anything is possible.

up to us to make the effort to think of solutions.

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:11 PM]

1. Note :- We should compare polytechnic graduates directly with JC graduates.

One armed with Diploma and the other armed with A level. 

If enter into workforce, a diploma holder will fetch higher pay $2,900 to $3,000 or over.

If A level enter into workforce, no study on salary figures - but definitely lower than diploma holder and poorer job prospect.

2. Hence, for polytechnic graduates, it is good to enter into workforce to work for 2 to 3 years to gain experience and utilise the diploma skillsets to the max - to gain valuable working experience that will not be make available to JC A level graduates going into Universities.

Also good chance to earn Universities school fees (about $30,000 or more for a 4 year course) 

For a diploma holder if work for 3 years = $3,000 x 12 months x 3 years = $108,000.

If set aside 1/3 of salaries - it will be $36,000 sufficient for Universities school fees and some living expenses.

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 4:14 PM]

diploma should compare with degree instead of against A level.

raise the benchmark instead of lowering it.

polytechnic graduate can be as capable as degree graduate if not better, in the workforce.

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:17 PM]

Can be as capable doesnt reflect in salary

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:18 PM]

So we can say and discuss this to hell, but will gov do anything about it employer side?

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:23 PM]

3. There are multiple pathways for polytechnic graduates with working experience to further their studies in Universities.

4. Primary routes is through SIT University - whereby most polytechnic graduates should be able to gain a place. SIT University in Punggol that consolidate all polytechnic campuses provide a direct placement with industries during the University course (if I am not wrong, based on what I previously read from the CNA and Straits Times).

5. The better ones, cream of the crop from polytechincs can go to NUS and NTU "our local Ivy League qualities local Universities".

Note :- This 2 local Universities are R&D based and must have solid foundation in basic higher Math, advanced science, critical thinkings that will spur R&D innovation. This is unlike SIT University that is more industry relevant in which diploma graduates are more adapted to.

Note:- I received feedback that most polytechnic graduates do relatively well in projects that demand their industry specialisation skills. But come to foundational math, science, critical thinkings and R&D (innovative research topics) --- they mostly struggle and don't get good results for such subjects.

Note :- fail subjects are quite high and some even dropout ...

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 4:24 PM]

Yes. But this doesn't reflect on corporate world

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

There need to be a mindset change from everyone, not only employers.

Would you want to have your kid marry a poly or degree graduate? Similar, white vs blue collar.

All of us should be looking at individual personalities and skillsets instead of our bias and sterotypes

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

So is singaporeans on the ground expected to do this?

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

For marriage I don't really care so much as long they have work life balance

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:31 PM]

How would the intl busniesses react if they get a flood of poly applicants claiming they are skilled enough?

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:33 PM]

I wonder who they will choose. The singapore poly everyone knows, or a random uni overseas, not ivy league.

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:34 PM]

I wonder how our poly grads compare though. Is there any stats?

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:35 PM]

I wonder how thoroughly employers verify credentials too

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:36 PM]

6. Of course there are other local Universities like SUSS, SMU, SUTD - that will also take in some polytechnic graduates.

7. Note :- NUS and NTU in particular also accept foreign scholarship - but the standard is very high. I heard that a France scholar after 1 semseter in NUS, dropout after that and need to repay the scholarship sponsor to the sponsor - because she say the NUS standards very high - have problem following.

8. Also same comments from foreign top students on scholarship - that study in NUS and NTU say standards are very high - and they are struggling to cope. (Read from some news).

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:43 PM]

1. Having say so, I think about half or more polytechnics graduates will progress to pursue Universities degree after working for sometimes having earn enough Universities school fees and earn some working experience.

2. The rest will work as diploma holders, gain working experience and take on professional specialise course relevant to their organisation needs and move vertically or horizontally or move up the ladder.

3. It depends on the aspiration of the diploma holders. Those who want to puruse University degrees will have a chance to do so.

Those who wish to upgrade organically with their diploma through professional certification course will also continue to do so.

I think organisation will not stop promoting a diploma graduates to higher position if they possess the potential and flair to move upwards.

Because organisation are very smart. Capable staff they will keep - whether diploma or degree holders are immaterial.

不管他是黑猫白猫，能干的猫就是好猫。

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 5:11 PM]

Eg. 

1. A diploma holder who hold a ACCA certificate earn as much as an accountant graduates.

2. A diploma holder in computer science holding a cissp or ccie earn the same pay as computer science university graduate.

So is university degree the only pathway?

Evidently not.

LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 5:23 PM]

Hence all the opportunities and multiple pathways are out there.

It all depends on the individuals how to seize it.

The last thing I will blame is the government, because the government has provided all the pathways possible.

It now depends on individual how to exploit it to suit individual needs.

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 6:05 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 6:18 PM]

the internship program in polytechnic and in university is very useful, and may increase the poly and uni undergrad chance of securing a job upon graduation.

should continue to promote it and see if it can be expanded into internship in MNC or short term internship overseas, not sure how feasible it will be.

spreading the net wide so that undergrad can have a feel and sense of the working world.

there bound to be a few who is more adventurous and capable enough to get an internship by their own effort.

(it is a good sign, and maybe an indicator that these are proactive student with self initiative and drives and planning)

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 6:47 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

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