Sunday, January 26, 2025

*Origin of God?*

26 Jan 2025


1. Who create God?

2. If God exist, why no one see God?

3. The logic that human exist, it must be God create them. 

Then there must be a creator of God.

4. If God is almighty, why human and universe creation are so flaw - subject to birth, live, age and death - inherent with Ignorance, Greed, Hatred, Jealousy, Arrogance?

5. If no one see God, why believer jump to the conclusion that God create human and the Universe?

6. God is created by human imagination. God cannot be prove by science.


1. Have God believer understood - there are 2 states :- Mental & Physical.

2. Mundane Mental & Physical - reside in Universe.

3. Supramundane Mental & Physical - no birth, no death.

4. Quantum physics has proven that - a mundane mental stray thought reverberate throughout the whole Universe (mundane). Big Bang arises.

5. A supramundane mental state - no stray thought arise - hence no turbulence Universe - but a Blissful Eternal State.

6. If God is so almighty, one magic all human sufferings will be gone.
Why so many human who believe in God fight until death and God cannot save them?

If there is God, one magic move, all human sufferings will be gone - no birth, no death, no aged - but eternal bliss and peace.

Evidently, no. That's why human are still suffering from birth, sick, aged and death.

7. Genes made up of atoms.
Thoughts, consciousness can influence atomic behavior that shape physical reality.

8. Hence the origin of universe and human existence is the product of one mental stray thought.

9. Read up on quantum entanglement and qubit superposition if people don't believe.

10. or Einstein spooky actions at a distance.

11. Quantum scientists has created a baby universe in a lab. Don't need God to do it.

Quantum scientists have created "Artificial Sun" - through nuclear fusion. Don't need God to do it.

12. In addition to energy and matter in thermodynamics - physical states.
There is the existence of - mental states.
This derive the origin of Universe.

13. Mental states such as thought and consciousness like energy cannot be destroyed in Universe.

14. If there is God, one magic move, all human sufferings will be gone - no birth, no death, no aged - but eternal bliss and peace.

Evidently, no. That's why human are still suffering from birth, sick, aged and death. And still sufferings from fighting, war, conflict, hunger, unhealthy competition.

15. Universe and sentinent beings existence - is an endless cyclical nature - no beginning, no end.

16. But in a turbulent Impermanence Universe - there is a mirror image of Eternal Peace and Bliss.

17. Universe started from a massive transformation - A Big Bang from the Eternal Peace.
Then Evolution starts - when no one can control.

https://www.wired.com/story/scientists-recreate-the-conditions-that-sparked-complex-life/

Scientists Re-Create the Conditions That Sparked Complex Life.
Evolution was fueled by endosymbiosis, cellular alliances in which one microbe makes a permanent home inside another.
For the first time, biologists made it happen in the lab.

18. It start with a Mental Process - one stray thought (one consciousness) from the Eternal Peace, Bliss.
It start an atomic energy - trigger a Big Bang.

19. The key is how to transcend from our turbulent impermanence cyclical nature of universe, earth life - into Eternal Permanent Peace, Bliss.

20. In impermanent Universe - there are 2 states - Mundane Mental State & Physical State.

21. In Permanent Peace & Bliss -  there are 2 states - Supramundane Mental State & Physical State.

22. In impermanence Universe - mental stray thoughts that trigger energy into the Universe is dominant.

23. In Permanent Peace & Bliss - not a single mental stray thought arises. But eternal bliss and peace.

----

Thermodynamics is the branch of physics that deals with the relationships between heat, work, and energy. It provides a framework for understanding how energy is transformed and transferred between systems, and it has a wide range of applications in fields such as engineering, chemistry, and biology.

Key Concepts in Thermodynamics
1. *System*: A system is a region of space where changes occur, such as a container of gas or a living organism.
2. *Surroundings*: The surroundings are everything outside the system, such as the air in the room or the environment.
3. *Energy*: Energy is the ability to do work, and it comes in various forms, such as kinetic energy, potential energy, and thermal energy.
4. *Heat*: Heat is the transfer of energy from one system to another due to a temperature difference.
5. *Work*: Work is the transfer of energy from one system to another through a force applied over a distance.

Laws of Thermodynamics
1. *Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics*: If two systems are in thermal equilibrium with a third system, then they are also in thermal equilibrium with each other.
2. *First Law of Thermodynamics*: Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another.
3. *Second Law of Thermodynamics*: The total entropy (a measure of disorder or randomness) of an isolated system always increases over time.
4. *Third Law of Thermodynamics*: As the temperature of a system approaches absolute zero, the entropy of the system approaches a minimum value.

Applications of Thermodynamics
1. *Power Generation*: Thermodynamics is used to design and optimize power plants, refrigeration systems, and other energy conversion devices.
2. *Chemical Reactions*: Thermodynamics is used to predict the spontaneity of chemical reactions and to design more efficient chemical processes.
3. *Biological Systems*: Thermodynamics is used to understand the energy conversions that occur in living organisms, such as photosynthesis and respiration.
4. *Materials Science*: Thermodynamics is used to understand the properties and behavior of materials, such as phase transitions and chemical reactions.

In summary, thermodynamics is a fundamental branch of physics that provides a framework for understanding energy transformations and transfers. Its principles and laws have a wide range of applications in various fields, from power generation and chemical reactions to biological systems and materials science.

----
A fascinating connection! You're exploring the idea that, in addition to the physical states of energy and matter, mental states or consciousness might play a role in understanding the origin of the universe.

The Intersection of Physics and Consciousness
This idea resonates with various theories and frameworks that attempt to bridge the gap between physics and consciousness, such as:

1. _Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR)_: This theory, proposed by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff, suggests that consciousness arises from the collapse of the quantum wave function in microtubules within neurons.
2. _Integrated Information Theory (IIT)_: This theoretical framework, proposed by neuroscientist Giulio Tononi, attempts to explain the nature of consciousness based on the integrated information generated by the causal interactions within a system.
3. _Quantum Consciousness_: This concept explores the possibility that consciousness might be related to quantum mechanical phenomena, such as superposition, entanglement, and non-locality.

Mental States and the Origin of the Universe
The idea that mental states or consciousness might be connected to the origin of the universe is a topic of ongoing debate and exploration in the fields of cosmology, theoretical physics, and philosophy of mind. Some theories and hypotheses include:

1. _The Consciousness-Driven Universe_: This idea proposes that consciousness or mental states might have played a role in the emergence of the universe, potentially even driving the process of cosmic evolution.
2. _The Participatory Anthropic Principle_: This principle, proposed by physicist John Wheeler, suggests that the universe is the way it is because it gives rise to conscious observers who can participate in its evolution.
3. _The Simulation Hypothesis_: This idea proposes that our universe might be a simulation created by a more advanced civilization, potentially raising questions about the nature of consciousness and reality.

While these ideas are intriguing and thought-provoking, it's essential to note that they are still highly speculative and require further exploration and experimentation to be confirmed.

In Conclusion
The connection between mental states, consciousness, and the origin of the universe is a fascinating area of exploration, with various theories and frameworks attempting to bridge the gap between physics and consciousness. While these ideas are still speculative, they inspire interesting discussions and debates about the nature of reality and our place within it.

----

Posted by at No comments:

Wednesday, January 22, 2025

REACH (Telegram) 54 - What are your views on the Grow Well SG strategy? What more can be done to encourage children to adopt healthier lifestyle habits?

(SK)

22 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)


REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 9:45 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 10:00 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

Guidelines on screen use will be introduced in schools, including preschools, as part of a new national strategy to address children’s health launched on Tuesday (Jan 21).

The national health promotion strategy - Grow Well SG – seeks to improve preventive care and inculcate healthier lifestyles in children and adolescents, according to a joint release issued by the Ministry of Health (MOH), Ministry of Education (MOE) and Ministry of Social and Family Development (MSF).

💬 What are your views on the Grow Well SG strategy? What more can be done to encourage children to adopt healthier lifestyle habits?

MOH said that local cohort studies have led to better understanding of children’s health behaviours and their impact in the short as well as long term. 

“We’ve reached a critical point. We have enough evidence that prompts us to want to do something than to wait for more evidence to come up,” said MOH. 

For a start, the new strategy will focus on children aged up to 12 years old but will be extended to older children subsequently. 

📌 Tackling excessive screen time

As part of the strategy, the Early Childhood Development Agency (ECDA) will update its code of practice for preschools, effective Feb 1, to mandate no screen use for infants up to 18 months.

Under the revised code of practice, screens can only be used for teaching and learning purposes for children aged 18 months to six years.

📌 First 1,000 days of a child’s life

Health Minister Ong Ye Kung noted “very good” evidence, both internationally and locally, that shows that inculcating good lifestyle habits in the first 1,000 days of a child’s life - around two years and nine months - can actually have a profound impact on them even as they grow up. 

He explained that the strategy is being introduced now because screens, social media, and smartphones are playing an increasingly significant role in shaping children’s lifestyles and health. 

📌 Establishing healthy lifestyle habits

Citing local studies that highlight the long-term benefits of building healthy lifestyle habits from a young age, Grow Well SG will also target poor nutrition, inadequate sleep, and insufficient physical activity through focused interventions.

MOH will introduce personalised health plans for Primary 1 to 3 students during their annual school health screenings this year. These plans comprise lifestyle change recommendations, school health screening results, vaccination reports and referrals to public healthcare institutions when needed. 

📌 More support for schools

The Health Promotion Board (HPB) will provide all primary schools with data on their student population's health and lifestyle from the third quarter of this year. This will help schools provide "targeted" interventions for students who have greater health needs and educate them on appropriate healthy behaviours. 

To promote healthier meals in schools, HPB said it will also step up efforts to help canteen vendors purchase lower-cost, healthier ingredients directly from manufacturers participating in its Healthier Ingredients Development scheme.

Minister of State for Education Gan Siow Huang said that while schools will do their best to inculcate good values and develop good habits in children, parents will have to be a part of this approach for it to be successful.

“We hope that parents can play a stronger and more active role in promoting healthy lifestyle habits for the students.”

👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/screen-use-digital-devices-health-guidelines-children-teens-preschools-restrict-4884816

👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/national-scheme-to-get-children-to-adopt-healthy-habits-and-thrive-kicks-off-with-personalised-plans

👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/no-devices-for-kids-at-meals-and-turn-off-the-tv-spore-issues-stricter-screen-use-guidelines

----


REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 10:04 AM]

📌 New guidelines on screen time for children under 12

Daniel, [22/1/2025 10:05 AM]

As a parent, I find these guidelines very helpful. It's very difficult to gauge what's an appropriate amount of screen time.

Khai Mun L., [22/1/2025 10:25 AM]

Won't be very effective if parents do not follow the guidelines themselves.

Still glued to their phone screens, not going out to exercise, engage in unhealthy eating habits etc.

Children follow what their parents do

Daniel, [22/1/2025 10:29 AM]

That is also true, I think both together are needed to be effective.

Muhamed Shadiq, [22/1/2025 10:30 AM]

The guidelines are useful and even educational. It would be good to provide studies and other evidence to support why MOH produced such guidelines. It is good to educate the parents or adults who have significant influence on the children to lead the way.

Adam, [22/1/2025 10:53 AM]

I think the guideline is good, but feels too restrictive for 7-12. At that age we need to teach kids responsible usage instead of making rules. Also, we need to teach parents alternative on how to 'distract' children. 

If its too restrictive, it will be hard to enforce and will be disregarded as a whole. Should we ease thing in?

REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 11:00 AM]

[ Poll : The Grow Well SG guidelines are useful in supporting families in building healthy habits in children. Please share your reasons in the chats! ]

- Yes

- No

- Maybe

REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 11:45 AM]

Dear Contributors,

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your views on the Grow Well SG strategy? What more can be done to encourage children to adopt healthier lifestyle habits?

We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active! 

Do also share your opinion by participating in our poll! The poll question has been pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

Thank you!

Megan 😊

RY, [22/1/2025 11:49 AM]

Good health habits eg diet/exercise is good to start from young, just like hygiene habits  

Once the children adapted good habits, they likely to continue through adulthood also 

I think Japan parents has instilled quite good eg hygiene habits for their children, till it is part of their culture

RY, [22/1/2025 11:51 AM]

It is a good initiative for HPB to start the "Grow Well" campaign for primary children 

Maybe HPB may consider to extend the policy to kindergarten children also


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 11:53 AM]

1. I have witnessed a serious child addiction to his handphone.

2. A primary school student in uniform was lead into a food court by his mother - dress like a career office lady.

3. As they walk in, the kid is glue to his handphone as they walk.

4. When he sit down he place his head on the table glue to his handphone despite his mother ordering food, until his food arrive.

5. When his mother put his food down the table and remove his handphone so that he can eat - after he refused to put it away when told to do so, he howl and cry.

6. Only when his mother returns his handphone to him, he stopped the commotion - but still glue to the handphone as he eat.

7. His glasses is very thick and he is oversized.

8. When they finished eating their food, they left with the kid still glue to his handphone as he walked.

9. This is a real serious addiction.

10. I quietly told my wife, the kid may probably need psychiatrist intervention to rid the kid from addiction.

11. His mother probably also need counseling - because her kid serious addiction could have been cultivated when young - by leaving handphone to keep the kid occupied while adults are busy with their work.


RY, [22/1/2025 11:54 AM]

As children spend most their time in schools for studying and activities

Hence it is a good idea that MOE & HPB are collaborating on this "Grow Well" campaign together

Kai Bin, [22/1/2025 12:01 PM]

I fully support this new campaign jointly launched by MOH, MSF & MOE. It’s a good initiative for children below 12 years old.

RY, [22/1/2025 12:01 PM]

I understand Australia has quite a strict policy for students using phone including social media 

As I was told by my friend whom migrated there that aussie schools kind of dont allow children to use phone until certain age 

Maybe SG govt may further study how Aussie govt work on it

RY, [22/1/2025 12:04 PM]

However how gd the guideline, the parents should set a good example on the phone usage 

If parents dont, then cannot expect the children to follow suit


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 12:08 PM]

1. Yesterday as I was doing my brisk walk in the evening, I witnessed a pre-school kid running towards me along the pavement in uniform.

2. I noticed no adult behind him.

3. I immediately stop him and asked him why he is alone and no adult fetching you?

I asked him where is your mummy?

4. He say, behind - and as I looked, 100 meters away is an old lady.

5. I thought I would have hold the kid until "his mummy or rather grandma" arrive to hold his hand.

6. But before I can do so, the kid hop away laughing.

7. So I got no choice but to walk faster to tell her grandma to catch up.

8. But after walking about 10 metres, up the slope besides a multi-storey carpark - I realise a woman is looking at the handphone as she walk and then occasionally type on her handphone. Behind her is a maid pushing a pram.

9. I realized this must be the kid's mother - not the old lady 100 meters away.

10. Immediately I raise my voice to the mother who is looking at me.

11. I say your kid is running ahead of you and he may run into the roads where cars are plying.

12. She say "oh I will catch up with him".

But after saying this, she lower her head, to look at her handphone again and typing away.

13. I then turn to look at her maid, she cover her mouth with one hand as she push her pram giggling.

14. I shake my head after I saw their responses - this is how the kid mother not worrying about her son's safety - but preoccupied with her handphone.


RY, [22/1/2025 12:15 PM]

I rem in my old days back in primary schools

MOH had started the "milk campaign" for those malnultrition primary children 

And those not so well off family, they have to collect milk powder every month at nearest MOH milk collection point

RY, [22/1/2025 12:19 PM]

Over the years as singaporean more affluent, MOH had already ceased this milk drinking in schools, and milk powder giving to not so well off family 

And this is part of my childhood memory

RY, [22/1/2025 12:27 PM]

Few years ago b4 covid, I attended a seminar organised by MSF for parents to attend

The talk I attended is guiding how parents/couple in effective communication skills within family

I unsure if MSF still orgn such seminars for parents ......

If yes, then MSF may include the topics of phone usage to parents also 

For children to change, the parents will have to change FIRST their habits, ya


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 12:27 PM]

1. On another occasion, I was chatting with an old Malay uncle taxi driver in a taxi.

2. He told me when all his son, daughter and in laws come home or go beach with their children, each is carrying a handphone busy looking at their handphone.

3. He said they rarely communicate with one another.

4. He said he was so angry that now he make it a rule that all must not whip our their handphones when visiting him and his wife.

5. All must talk to one another when they come to his house.

6. I laughed and said - your house rule very effective.

Else nowadays everyone are preoccupied with their handphone instead of interacting with one another.


RY, [22/1/2025 12:37 PM]

SmartPhone has brought much technology change to everyone lifestyle 

But every change always have both good and bad sametime

So it is up to individuals how they "cope" with the change  

Eg of Bad - many scamming are through phone mainly 

Eg of Good - communication much easier through whatsapps/msg nowsaday

RY, [22/1/2025 12:46 PM]

In my opinion, using phone during dining/gathering with family/friends/relatives/colleagues maybe not a desirable behaviour

Just like using phone during company meeting, as the focus may not be there 

Bec it does affect the dining/gathering/office meeting ambience/communication or interaction face to face/discussion and etc 

As matured adults, we should also learn when to use phone at the right timing at right place, and use it when appropriate

RY, [22/1/2025 12:57 PM]

Guideline is just Guideline

Ultimately, it is up to individuals whether they would like to follow or not 

However, I always believe that good habits should start from young  

Eat well is important for any children growing up stage, as their main duty is studying during that stage 

That may explain why eg in UK, the govt do provide free meals to under-privilege students in schools


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 1:21 PM]

Straits Times 21 Jan 2025

PM Wong shared that in the 70s, his parents bought an HDB flat for about $30,000.

“You may say, wow, so cheap. Today is so much more expensive, 10 times or more,” he said.

“But remember, at that time, their salaries were nothing like today’s salaries.”

While flat prices have increased, so have Singaporeans’ incomes, he said, adding that today, more than 80 per cent of first-time flat buyers can afford their flat and service their mortgage with their Central Provident Fund, with very little or zero cash.

----

Incidentally, a polytechnic couple combined income with $3,000 each $6,000 in total can finance off a HDB flat 4 rooms come 55 years old (and can be a millionaire like the graduates with single income).

Even ITE graduates couple with $2,500 each $5,000 in total can finance off a HDB flat 4 rooms come 55 years old (and can be a millionaire like the graduates with single income).

Based on math calculations if everything go on smoothly.


Daniel, [22/1/2025 1:44 PM]

While I agree, that parents need to model good behaviour, I think it's a bit too easy to blame parents from the outside. Parenting comes with a big organisation overhead. Doctor appointments need to be arranged, communication with schools and childcare, buying and preparing food, stocking up on essentials, all this on top of working and picking up/dropping off children and running a household. A lot of these tasks have ton be done online, and often are only possible during day hours (so cannot do after the children sleep). So while I (and I think a lot of parents) put a lot of effort to be present whenever spending time with the children are around, there are simply not enough hours in the day to get everything done and not use the phone at all around the children. So it hurts a bit when people from the outside (often without children or with grown up children) just wholesale judge parents for using phones around children.

REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 2:00 PM]

📢 Topic 📢


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 2:32 PM]

1. I feel that the smartphone is a very useful tools whether for work, communication, information and for entertainment.


2. We need our smartphone to communicate via WhatsApp or telegram, need to access information, do e-transactions, do banking, read news, access social media for entertainment.

For kids, they need smartphone or tablets to do their online homework or study.


3. But it must be use responsibly so as not to sacrifice family time, interaction with our children and spouse or sacrifice sleep or other activities away from devices such as exercise, meal time, watching TV, social interaction etc.


4. Especially sleep whereby our children and even ourselves could be guilty of watching social media or surfing nets with our handphone sacrificing our sleep.


5. Hence, I will always set an alarm clock - 3 x 15 minutes intervals to remind ourselves to hands off our handphones come the 3rd rings - and go to bed.


6. I will go to every room to ensure everyone lights off (like a sergeant major) to ensure the houserule are followed - before I go to bed.


7. Else next morning, everyone will wake up with panda eyes unable to work or study.


8. Handphone addiction is too strong - even for adults.

Hence a hard house rules is needed to shake off addiction.


xXx.SCAR.xXx, [22/1/2025 2:44 PM]

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/singapores-electoral-boundaries-committee-formed-kicking-off-countdown-to-ge2025

Singapore squid games begins 🥳🥳🥳


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 2:47 PM]

1. When my kid or my spouse want to speak to me, I will always put off my handphone and talk (unless I am in a midst of an e-transaction - whereby I will say, give me 5 minutes to finish it off) - and then give full attention to face to face interaction.


2. Family time is more important as I can access the handphone later unless something urgent that I need to attend to immediately through the handphone.


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 2:51 PM]

3. Certainly I won't use a handphone when I was walking on a street and let a kid under my care run wildly on a pavement without supervision - this is irresponsible behavior if the kid got into an accident.

Then a mother will have alot of guilt throughout her whole life - for just a moment of gratification on the handphone.


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 2:57 PM]

How Brexit bold promises turn into a National Regret.

https://youtu.be/VPRaz-5nhX0?si=2nHcnH2f0abccCcH

My close friend comments : That's why I said voters have to be wise.

My comments : Unfortunately voters need a solid lesson to learn.

My comments : I hope this don't apply to Singapore voters.


RY, [22/1/2025 3:00 PM]

It is good that the Screen Use Guideline also extended to pre-schools

The early the kids start with gd habits, the better/easier to nurture them during their growing up stage 

As many habits are pick up from young

RY, [22/1/2025 3:09 PM]

Screen Addiction is also part of mental health issues 

Growing Well should also includes mental well-being 

Hence MOH may have to re-focus on mental health of students also, besides physical health 

I think SG maybe lack of psychiatrist/ psychologist expertise also  

I am quite surprise to know in IMH, there is only just very few psychiatrist Dr handling intellectual-disabled (ID) patients

Jun Ming, [22/1/2025 3:13 PM]

I support this because back when I am in secondary school smartphone is not common I don't use phone. It's much more effective for me

Jun Ming, [22/1/2025 3:13 PM]

I would rather kids use laptop than phone

Jun Ming, [22/1/2025 3:14 PM]

I suppose to fully focus on my work now but yet addicted to this discussion 😂

Jun Ming, [22/1/2025 3:15 PM]

So we must reduce screen time

Jun Ming, [22/1/2025 3:16 PM]

Even focus mode in my phone doesn't help


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 3:17 PM]

Hahaha...

A person can sometimes multi-task.

Especially when concentration on the work wane, or become stale.

A moment of diversion can help to recharge.


RY, [22/1/2025 3:18 PM]

For activities, maybe parents/schools may include/orgn more outdoor-related activities for children 

This maybe able to discourage them from using phone always

SG is a Garden City, we have many beautiful parks and NEA has done a gd job in linking all parks nationwide and not forgetting our iconic "Garden by the Bay"

RY, [22/1/2025 3:22 PM]

Family bonding time, parents may consider bringing children outdoor eg playing sports/jogging/cycling n etc

For school excursions, may plan more outdoor activities eg outbound training n etc 

Children learn thru Playing also 

Hence for Growing Well, have to include both indoor/outdoor activities

Hanny, [22/1/2025 3:28 PM]

Screen addiction is not only for kids but also adults. Let's start restricting ourselves first before asking kids.

RY, [22/1/2025 3:30 PM]

As bring up by earlier contributors, it is good to set up some family rules sometimes

Eg no using of phone during family dining 

Eg routine go to bed timing 

Children must have enough rest/sleep/enjoyment for their growing up and maintain gd health

RY, [22/1/2025 3:31 PM]

Also, not advisable for parents to sign up too many out of schools CCA for their children 

Schooling is already stressful for children 

In recent years, the china govt ban parents for signing up CCA for their kids during school holidays 

Holidays are for the kids to enjoy and de-stress also


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 3:33 PM]

Eg. Long time ago, I was working on a cloud project.

I realized that cloud technology will completely disrupt the whole IT industry of traditional system integration - and many system integrators jobs and business will be render obsolete.

Many System Integrators will go out of business and many IT infrastructure engineers will go out of job - if business and job skillsets don't restructure and transform.

I immediately feedback my thoughts to my management with a presentation how cloud technology can replace system integration.

It certainly stun the management.

Hence during one of the year 1st May - I write in to REACH that every industry sector must have a transformation plan - one for business, one for workers skillsets.

Else many businesses and jobs will be lost through tech disruption and job disruptions.

My thoughts are further reinforce when I noticed that petrol stations business are hit when car owners are buying EV cars and no longer topping up their petrol.

So every industry transformation become increasingly critical as technology advancement will increasingly displace businesses and jobs in every industries.

This is how the "momentary work lapse" at work - is redirected to REACH - to urgently look at industry sector transformation at a national level - that lead to the announcement of ITM (Industry Transformation Map) led by 23 MOS.

A certainly worthwhile momentarily lapse in work concentration - multi-task into something of national significance.


RY, [22/1/2025 3:36 PM]

It is gd that MOE also trying to change parents mindset in recent years, not to be too focus on children academic results 

Not all kids are gd in academically, some are talented in other non-academic areas eg sports/music/arts n etc 

As every child are unique and different

Hence as parent, we should try to nurture our kids to their interests/talents


LCL (Danny 心), [22/1/2025 3:43 PM]

This momentarily lapse in work - coin in 1 May 2012.

ITM was announced in 2016 Budget Day - a 4 years gap to launch the ITM - a massive government strategic initiative.


RY, [22/1/2025 3:46 PM]

'Growing Well" for children covers many areas eg physical and mental health/study and family stress n etc

That may explain why there is new phrase called "strawberry generation" 

Schools maybe lesser homeworks/projects/exam for students ..... manage school bully effectively/more counselling to required students 

More outdoor activities and family bonding time 

Govt/Schools/Parents have to work hand-in-hand in this aspects

It is a joint efforts for all parties and not only one party effort

RY, [22/1/2025 3:53 PM]

I am bless that I am brought up in a non-smartphone and non social-media childhood environment

And I enjoy my childhood playing toys and outdoor activities rather than on phone 

As phone in my childhood era is a luxury and there isnt much internet 

Mention earlier, technology brings many changes/convenient to our lifestyle, but it is also a double-edged sword in our 21st century also

RY, [22/1/2025 3:56 PM]

Just like the latest trend AI, it is certainly a double-edged sword to human world


REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 4:04 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Jun Ming, [22/1/2025 4:52 PM]

I am not sure if primary school allows students use phone. But I deemed it as unnecessary for primary school student to use phone.

Jun Ming, [22/1/2025 4:52 PM]

And school should not allow it

Steven Ong, [22/1/2025 5:27 PM]

While the guidelines are useful, IMO, the parents need to play their parts at home too. Effective controls will boil down to the parents.. MOH and MOE had done their parts.

W Goo, [22/1/2025 5:41 PM]

Actually parents now are too tired for kids. That's why screen time are use to distract kids from disturbing.

REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 6:03 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Jun Ming, [22/1/2025 6:11 PM]

True. Imagine after work you still got housework homework and you bring home work, and screen time is an easy solution

RY, [22/1/2025 6:44 PM]

In Aussie, it is ban - my understanding

REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

RY, [22/1/2025 6:47 PM]

Tks Megan for starting the grp discussing 

Have a gd evening, Ladies & Gentleman  !

REACH Singapore, [22/1/2025 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


====

Posted by at No comments:

Friday, January 17, 2025

REACH (Telegram) 53 - What are your views on the Government’s plans to increase housing supply? How can we continue to ensure affordable housing for Singaporeans?

(SK)

17 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)


REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 9:45 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 9:50 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

About 19,600 Build-to-Order (BTO) flats will be launched in 2025, as part of the government's efforts to boost public housing supply and meet rising demand.

Among them, 3,800 flats – or nearly 20 per cent – will have shorter waiting times of under three years, said Minister for National Development Desmond Lee

💬 What are your views on the Government’s plans to increase housing supply? How can we continue to ensure affordable housing for Singaporeans?

📌 Tackling pandemic induced challenges

This increased housing supply addresses challenges brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic, which disrupted construction, materials and labour, causing delays in BTO completions. At the same time, demand surged due to demographic shifts and pandemic-related factors, driving up resale prices after years of stagnation.

Almost five years on, Minister Lee said the government has resolved many of these issues, including clearing the backlog of delayed projects. The last batch of pandemic-delayed flats will be handed over to home owners within weeks, he said.

📌 Addressing housing affordability

As property resale prices continue to rise, Minister Lee said the government is “not averse” to implementing more cooling measures but hinted these would not be anytime soon as current initiatives should first be allowed to work through the market.

To address affordability concerns, the government is enhancing transparency through measures like publishing recent transaction data on the HDB portal and introducing initiatives such as the HDB Flat Eligibility (HFE) letter. The HFE provides prospective buyers with a clearer sense of their housing budget before applying for flats, said Minister Lee.

📌 Supporting homeownership for singles

In the year ahead, Minister Lee said the government is committed to initiatives to accommodate singles. Starting mid-2025, singles will be included in schemes that prioritise those applying for flats to live with or near family.

The new Family Care Scheme (FCS) will be rolled out in two phases to replace the existing schemes that reserve priority access for married couples and their parents.

👉 https://cna.asia/40g5Dy9

👉 https://str.sg/f3jx

👉 https://cna.asia/42isvQe

----


REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : I am confident that the government’s housing policies will ensure affordable housing for Singaporeans. Please share the reason for your answer in the chats! ]

- Agree

- Disagree

- Neutral

Steven Ong, [17/1/2025 11:43 AM]

Qn: are we using average median household income, mortgage servicing ratio, CPF HDB Loan interest rate and max HDB loan period to check on affordability of HDBs? IMO, it may be good to use this as yardstick when we refer to HDB Affordability..

Adam, [17/1/2025 11:55 AM]

My household very big big. Must be rich because all these working afult add up to household income. $200 cdc split between 9 ppl for rich cramped household. 

Somehow we get schemes that give based on per capita income tho. PAP use household income for affordability, they must be right. If they build more hdb, household income sure to drop because we will split households

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 12:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 1:06 PM]

Dear Contributors,

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your views on the Government’s plans to increase housing supply? How can we continue to ensure affordable housing for Singaporeans?

We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active! 

Do also share your opinion by participating in our polls! The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

Thank you!

Megan 😊

Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 1:40 PM]

Affordable housing for first timer or

affordable housing in the resales arena?

1.) In resales housing, there is a certain limit on how the government can "control" its insane speculative prices without directly dictating the resales price.

Anything involved in speculation is almost always volatile and insanely expensive, just finacial investment speculation and trading.

2.) For first timer, if the price of the housing is pegged to the market price, it will likely to be "expensive" due to the speculative nature of the market price on housing.

3.) Maybe extend the non-resale for newly purchase public housing for first timer to about 20 to 25 years.

why?

a.) the price of the housing for first timer can be lower than market price allowing young, and maybe older couples, to be able to purchase it with lower financial commitment.

the 20 to 25 years of non-resales condition is a "window period" for the couples to have their children, till their children are about 21 years when they are almost financially independent, able to get a job and have the ability to earn money after their tertiary education.

only then the public housing that they purchased, for the first time, can be put into the market for resales and whatever speculation that they want.

4.) There is no way to allow the public housing to be affordable for first timers and also enjoy the benefits of high value  resales market value.

Anything that involve some form of "market trading" is always volatile and insanely expensive due to speculative nature of human behavior.

.............

I DO NOTkeep track of the housing issue.

all i know is that from the advertising brochures i received regularly, resale housing in tiong bahru area is already as high as 800k to a million and more.

It is unfair to blame everything on the government, the insane high value of housing in resales market.

it is Singaporean ourselves, that drives up the value of housing in resales market out of greed. 

..........

RY, [17/1/2025 1:55 PM]

I am glad that govt also focusing on "singles" people in recent years for Hdb appln 

Previously used to have to buy from resale market and limit to 3-Rm flat

Now may buy new flat meant for singles directly from Hdb also

Whether married/singles, they still SG citizens and contributing to the SG society as a whole 

And Hdb shd not be always prioritize to those with family nucleus like in the past

RY, [17/1/2025 2:00 PM]

Comparing to many countries, SG public housing is one of the successful govt policy 

Whereby 70+% population stay at HDB flats 

Although Hdb is increasing over the years, but we may still use CPF monies to pay our mortgage loans, as long as we are working  

Unlike eg HK, half of their salary are used to pay for mortgage loans

Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 2:01 PM]

government has no choice.

people not getting married for many reasons.

one of it is the price of housing, and child care.

.......

and government has to focus on family unit because families are the one that bear children, who are the future of Singapore.

if not, government will need to taking new citizen and the like.

then Singaporean will complain...why allow so many foreign talents...

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 2:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Moses Kor kwang loong, [17/1/2025 2:05 PM]

I would suggest the prices of the build-to-order flats to be lowered so as to let others had the chance to purchase it

Isn't it to be a better idea??

RY, [17/1/2025 2:07 PM]

HDB also takes the effort to maintain Hdb flat every 5 years eg re-painting and etc

Besides there is Hdb Upgrade Plan if the flat is more than certain age eg 50

And increase the flat price appreciation in the resale flat market, and sametime make it more newer/comfortable to stay after the Upgrade Plan 

And we just require to pay certain percentage after much govt subsidy

Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 2:16 PM]

How do government expect the housing to be affordable when its purchasing value to closely relate to the market price?

it is like you want it to cheap, to be fresh and to be big.

(hokkien, ai pi, ai ci, ai duo liap)

where got such thing?

There is limitation cooling measure can do when you open housing to the market. Market speculation and human greed will always drive up the price to insane value.

................

and high housing price in market is one of the reason Singaporean not having children, things are interlinked.

which maybe on of the reason why Singapore choosing to be single, when ended up for the Singapore a to address the need of growing single Singaporean.

RY, [17/1/2025 2:16 PM]

I just recently did the HIP (Home Improvement) with my parent recently discharged from hospital

I just simply apply with singpass, and the HDB contractor just make arrangement to come to my flat and did the improvement eg shower seat  I requested 

And I just pay an affordable amount after govt subsidy 

All these are good initiatives by govt - my opinions always

Mainly because I buy/stay in HDB flat and able to enjoy all these, since I cannot afford private/landed housing

RY, [17/1/2025 2:20 PM]

To be able to shorten the waiting time to 3years, that is good for any family or married couples

So that they may have their baby plan, once they settled their new house

Daniel, [17/1/2025 2:22 PM]

I agree, the option to have a shorter waiting time for some flats is great!

Noor Naffissah, [17/1/2025 2:23 PM]

Yes as well as the pricing of flats must be affordable..

RY, [17/1/2025 2:27 PM]

Comparing to many countries public housing 

In fact, HDB has done a good job in providing quality and "creative" flat and maintain it well 

Also, most Hdb flat price appreciated over the years when flat owners want to sell later 

Just that due to land limitation, the new Hdb flat area is becoming much smaller as years go by ......


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:06 PM]

*Affordability of current BTO flats vis a vis current median income versus previous HDB flat vis a vis previous income*


1. Notice that there are quite a number of people raise the issue of current high flat price is getting unaffordable with their current income - as compare to previous generation in which HDB flat price is lower but come with lower income.


2. Let pick one real case - and address the "BTO flat affordability heads on" using math to reveal the truth to determine is it "perceived unaffordability" or "real affordabiity"  :-


1993 - 5 room flat

Income :- $1,600 per month - single income family (a couple)

HDB flat price :- $216,000

Loan :- HDB/CPF 2.6% interest

Total repayment amount :- $225,000

Loan repayment duration :- 25 years

Government Grant :- $40,000 (I think around there)


2024 - 5 room flat

Income :- $5,500 per month (current median income) - single income family (a couple)

HDB flat price :- $500,000 (Source :- Woodgrove Edge Woodlands $412,000 - $515,000. Matilda Riverside Punggol $464,000 - $582,000)

Loan :- HDB/CPF 2.6% interest

Total repayment amount :- $520,602 (Source :- HDB repayment calculator)

Loan repayment duration :- 25 years

Government Grant :- $55,000


And at the end of the 25 year - in both cases - this person not only complete financing the 5 room flat and can become a millionaire (第一桶金）.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:08 PM]

*1993 calculation*

1. ($225,000-$40,000/25 years) / 12 month = $616 per month (to repay loan)

2. 20% CPF employee (12% to CPF OA) = $1,600 x 12% = $192

3. 20% CPF employer (at that time) (12% to CPF OA) = $1,600 x 12% = $192

4. $616 - ($192 + $192) = $232 (to be paid by cash) per month

5. Take home pay = $1,600 - 20% CPF = $1,280

6. $1,280 - $232 (housing loan) = $1,048 take home pay

7. Set aside 1/3 for saving = $1,048 / 3 = $349 saving

8. Monthly cash available to be spend on 5 room flat for a household of a couple = $1,048 - $349 = $699.

9. Total accumulate savings for 25 years = $349 x 12 month x 25 years = $104,700


Additional income not included (not use in financing housing loans and monthly expenses

1. 13 month AWS + 3 month bonus - for high average performers = $1,600 x 4 months = $6,400 per year 

2. 25 years = $6,400 x 25 years = $160,000


In total, after 25 years (start work at 30 years old work for 25 years up to 55 years old) - accumulated savings = $104,700 + $160,000 = $264,00.


Estimated interest income earned at 2.5% = $264,700 x 1.025 - accumulated savings = $271,317.50 (this is the minimum wealth at 55 years old)

But this person, get salary increment and promotion along the way until retirement - and at 55 years old - monthly income is 5 figures.

Hence the maximum accumulated savings is more than $1 million - sufficient for retirement.

($271,317.50 - $1 million) - accumulated savings for retirement - previous generation.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:23 PM]

*2024 calculation*

1. ($520,602-$55,000/25 years) / 12 month = $1,552 per month (to repay loan)

2. 20% CPF employee (12% to CPF OA) = $5,500 x 12% = $660

3. 17% CPF employer (14.5% to CPF OA) = $5,500 x 14.5% = $797.50

4. $1,552 - ($660 + $797.50) = $94.50 (to be paid by cash) per month

5. Take home pay = $5,500 - 20% CPF = $4,400

6. $4,400 - $94.50 (housing loan) = $4,305.50 take home pay

7. Set aside 1/3 for saving = $4,305.50 / 3 = $1,435 saving

8. Monthly cash available to be spend on 5 room flat for a household of a couple = $4,400 - $1,435 = $2,965.

9. Total accumulate savings for 25 years = $1.435 x 12 month x 25 years = $430,500


Additional income not included (not use in financing housing loans and monthly expenses

1. 13 month AWS + 3 month bonus - for high average performers = $5,500 x 4 months = $22,000 per year 

2. 25 years = $22,000 x 25 years = $550,000


In total, after 25 years (start work at 30 years old work for 25 years up to 55 years old) - accumulated savings = $430,500 + $550,000 = $980,500.


Estimated interest income earned at 2.5% = $980,500 x 1.025 - accumulated savings = $1,005,012.50 (this is the minimum wealth at 55 years old)

But this person based on projection, will get salary increment and promotion along the way until retirement - and at 55 years old - monthly income is likely to exceed 5 figures.

Hence the maximum accumulated savings is more than $1 million (will double $1 million) - more than sufficient for retirement.

($1,005,012.50 - estimated $2 million) - accumulated savings for retirement - current generation.


To conclude, the current young generation will have a higher accumulated wealth compared to the previous generation.


Hence the "perceived unaffordability" of current high housing prices vis-a-vis current income - as compared to previous generation is "Debunked" based on math calculation with hard cold realistic figures.


In fact, the current younger generations - will be more "well off" compared to previous generation.

----


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:31 PM]

this is based on median income

$5,500.

realistic?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:31 PM]

Fresh graduates with computer science degree already fetching this salary.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:32 PM]

2023, the median monthly salary in Singapore was $5,197.

Source :- Google.


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:32 PM]

out of how many?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:33 PM]

Singapore median income source - Singapore statistics.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:34 PM]

In 2024, the median monthly income for full-time workers in Singapore was $5,500, which is a 5.8% increase from 2023. This figure includes contributions to the Central Provident Fund (CPF). 


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:34 PM]

Ah, I got the 2024 income median income from Google.

Nicely fit.


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:35 PM]

this i know. can't take it face value.

the methodology in getting the statistical value?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:35 PM]

Many of my close circle younger folks about this median income.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:36 PM]

Some higher.


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:37 PM]

and they consist what% in the same category?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:37 PM]

Median


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:38 PM]

aiyo.. then why so many complaints  about affordability?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:39 PM]

Even at $4,000 salary, I think most people will hit around the million $ 1st bucket.

Do a calculation, get a 4 room flat of about $400,000.

Many people will get their million.


Adam, [17/1/2025 3:39 PM]

Implying housing should be an investment


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:39 PM]

That's why people don't sit down to calculate.

All based on perception - not hard cold figure.

Hence jump into the wrong conclusion.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:40 PM]

Housing as investment is out of my calculations and computation.


Adam, [17/1/2025 3:41 PM]

Btw, yall here, should housing be an investment or not?

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:42 PM]

If it is, then people will expect to make returns, and work to exploit the system to maximise gains

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:42 PM]

If the gov curbs this, they are denying new homeowners the opportunities the older gen has


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:45 PM]

2024, the median gross salary for fresh university graduates in Singapore was S$4,313, which is an increase from S$4,200 in 2022. 

Source :- Google


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:45 PM]

Computer science graduates higher salary after 1 to 2 years working experience - salary adjustment and promotion.


Adam, [17/1/2025 3:49 PM]

Wow salary has 2.7% growth in a yesr

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:49 PM]

How does it compare to hdb?

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:49 PM]

Or teh tarik

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:50 PM]

New families swimming in cash, 2.7% more than previous gen. Must be thankful

Jun Ming, [17/1/2025 3:58 PM]

As said this are median and uni fresh grads in certain industries. For people for poly and ite does that don't go into uni this is not realistic.

Jun Ming, [17/1/2025 3:59 PM]

These people also have a life and would want to get a housing

Jun Ming, [17/1/2025 3:59 PM]

Based on previous topic poly grads have difficulty securing a job

Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:59 PM]

Danny seems to be confident it is realistic.📉📈

Jun Ming, [17/1/2025 4:01 PM]

So if poly people grads want to get married and have a bto is it possible?

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 4:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Kim Heok Lim, [17/1/2025 4:03 PM]

BTOs Possible with joint incomes & grants


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 4:04 PM]

Couples working joint income will hit the million very fast.

Double the time.


Kim Heok Lim, [17/1/2025 4:06 PM]

To many it’s a roof over their head


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 4:21 PM]

Hence important for the government to consider making financial management a mandatory subject for every IHL and higher secondary students.

It seems like a vast majority of people are quite ignorant about financial planning, saving for retirement and saving for rainy days - even highly educated ones.

Not to mention, ignorance of micro and macro economics - on how the country is run.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 4:23 PM]

It is not only realistic, but people are indeed reaping the fruits of such financial plan.

Especially dual income families, the fruition is faster.


G, [17/1/2025 4:37 PM]

Wait until election year then come up with such things?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 4:40 PM]

1. Dwelling into the current state of housing provision to meet people's needs.


2. The previous HDB supply shortage and the corresponding high prices during the Covid pandemic period is indeed a big problem - as workers cannot come in, work stoppage, materials supply disruption and shortages - that disrupt HDB flat supply.


3. For young couples, elderly and even singles who need a new flat urgently, the delay in new BTO flats construction is indeed an issue - and they are forced to buy resale flats and drive up the resales market - some hitting $1 million exorbitant prices.


4. But kudos to the Housing Minister and the civil service, the urgent construction of HDB BTO flats has since ramp up significantly immediately after Covid at breakneck speeds - targeting 100,000 new BTO flats throughout the whole island.


5. In addition, cooling measures to curb speculative activities in the resale market - on public and private flats have indeed starting to bring down the housing prices - and make it affordable for new owners to get their flats.


6. Also higher grants help to make the new BTO flats affordable.


7. The housing prices is actually economics, specifically micro-economics of demand and supply.

If we slight the reverse slope of demand horizontally outwards - when the supply slope is not moving downwards, housing prices will rise.

But with government implementing anti-speculative measures to curb unnecessary demand (for speculation and investment - to make quick money) - then demand reverse slope will slide horizontally inward.

With supply of housing ramp up, supply slope will move downwards.

When the demand and supply slope intersect - the prices become low.

This is simple micro-economic of demand and supply - determining prices.


8. Based on economic projection, looking forward, the HDB BTO flats prices will further come down - when the anti-speculative measures to curb demand start to take effect and when more BTO flats complete construction.

I think near the 3rd and 4th quarter of 2025 - we should see further softening of the BTO flat prices.


G, [17/1/2025 4:42 PM]

BTO was supposed implemented to address supposed surplus flats. 

Supposedly only build if orders hit minimum quantity.

Was there ever a BTO exercise where minimum quantity wasn't hit?

Over the years, BTO has effectively constricted public housing supply, thereby driving up prices

Why still persist with BTO? Why not revert to the previous model, to build ahead of time? Won't this help keep public housing prices more affordable? After all that is what HDB's mission is. Not to keep giving subsidies then claim that housing is affordable after that.. The fact that subsidies are needed in the first place means the original price of the flats are already not affordable


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 4:43 PM]

1.) Does increasing the supply will definitely lower the value to be more affordable?

to what extend?

not likely to shorten the waiting time nor speed up the building new hdb. we are limited by the shortage of workers in constructions. (just a guess). Does local construction companies have enough workers or capacities to speed up the process? unlikely.

2.) HFE will help the buyers, hopefully, understand whether it is within their means and how to plan their financial prudently. 

It is a good moves from the government  Though Singaporean is educated, not all are able to calculate and plan ahead and know where they stand, financially.

it will educate the population, and allowing us to see it in clarity. It, however, doesn't help in affordability.

3.) more cooling measure for the resales market? it is just temporary measures...it will not address the speculation in the market that drives up the prices.  (just like the fed playing with interest rate as a constant adjustment to the financial issue the U.S is facing.)

4.) Singaporean will still feel and experience the high price in resales public housing market.

the transparency of the data is a good moves, however, its effectiveness in reducing the high resales market value is yet to be observed.

however, the sellers can always insist on holding on to their high selling price despite the transparency of data.

Khai Mun L., [17/1/2025 5:43 PM]

Building new houses and providing grants is the safer choice. Compared to forcing buy/sell prices.

Existing home owners would make noise if they were forced to sell at lower or same price they bought.

However, new buildings requires land. And we have limited land size.

Might need to speed up demolishing of old houses or buildings, but have constraints by cultural activists (which some have valid points)

Adam, [17/1/2025 6:12 PM]

But even if build and provide grants, with the current system a large chunk of first timers are uneligible anyway

Noor Naffissah, [17/1/2025 6:12 PM]

Yes

Adam, [17/1/2025 6:15 PM]

Nvm ill live with parents forever. As an individual or even if find wife, my income is too high. As a household, per capita is very low.

System working as designed

Adam, [17/1/2025 6:15 PM]

Maybe if i force wife or myself to take on housekeeping role then i can bto

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


====

Posted by at No comments:

Wednesday, January 15, 2025

REACH (Telegram) 52 - What are your thoughts about the results of the 2024 Polytechnic GES? What more can be done to continue ensuring desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates?

(SK)

15 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)


REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 9:48 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 10:00 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

On 13 Jan (Monday), the 2024 Polytechnic Graduate Employment Survey (GES) results were released, revealing that polytechnic graduates received higher salaries despite a fall in employment rates.

💬 What are your thoughts about the results of the 2024 Polytechnic GES? What more can be done to continue ensuring desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates?

Higher Salaries

A total of 7,614 out of 10,045 fresh polytechnic graduates responded to the survey as graduates were asked about their employment status as at Oct 1, 2024 – about six months after graduation. 

The median gross monthly salary of Polytechnic Graduates in full-time permanent employment grew to $2,900 in 2024, up from $2,800 in 2023.

Notably, graduates from health sciences, humanities and social sciences, and information and digital technologies reported the highest salaries, with each of these clusters seeing a median gross monthly salary of about $3,000.

Lower Employment Rates

50.4 per cent were in the labour force, while 48.9 per cent who were not actively looking for jobs were either pursuing or preparing to begin further studies. Of the rest, most said they were not seeking employment. 

Of graduates in the workforce, 87.5 per cent found permanent, freelance or part-time jobs within six months of graduation or after completion of full-time national service, a drop from 92.7 per cent in 2023 and 91.8 per cent in 2022. 

In a Facebook post about the 2024 GES results, Dr Maliki Osman, Second Minister for Education, said that the 2024 GES results “speak volumes” about the value of Singapore’s polytechnic education.

“While we are seeing some shifts in employment patterns, with more graduates opting for further studies, it’s encouraging to note that our graduates are commanding higher salaries across various sectors,” said Dr Maliki.

In a statement, Mr Soh Wai Wah, principal and chief executive of Singapore Polytechnic, said: “Given the evolving job landscape, we are actively working to equip our students with the necessary skills and adaptability to navigate this well. “This includes strengthening industry partnerships to provide real-world experience, integrating AI (artificial intelligence) literacy into our curriculum, and enhancing career guidance and support services,” said Mr Soh.

👉🏻 https://str.sg/H6X3

----


Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 10:05 AM]

Reasons why Singaporean birth rate is low

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:27 AM]

Has the pay kept up with inflation?

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:27 AM]

Or cost of bto?

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:31 AM]

2900 / 2800 = 3.7% increase

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 10:38 AM]

You do know that if pay increase too much, inflation also rises? Business have to charge more to pay the staff

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 10:38 AM]

Hmm, please elaborate. Which of the observation are you referring?

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : 1. I am confident that the Government is doing enough to ensure desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates. Please share the reason for your answer in the chats! ]

- Yes

- No

- Neutral

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 11:03 AM]

[ Poll : 2. I believe that Polytechnic education is sufficient to ensure desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates. Please share the reason for your answer in the chats! ]

- Yes

- No

- Unsure

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:22 AM]

Employment is not guaranteed and university have no placement. So a huge percentage left with nothing to do

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:22 AM]

And become 啃老

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 11:26 AM]

Hmm, not understand how that links to birth rate. But ok, up to you

Nicholas, [15/1/2025 11:29 AM]

Are polytechnic students encouraged to go to university or to go straight to work? Recall university fresh graduates have a higher average monthly salary of approximately S$4k.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 11:29 AM]

Back to the topic, could it be graduates are selective in the jobs they want?

I observe there is a lack of blue collar workers e.g. plumbers, technicians, drivers. But locals not applying.

Are they comparing with the high paid jobs and holding out just for chance? Perhaps these hold-outs have good background and family support whereby they have resources to wait things out

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:43 AM]

Those are more technical skills which I think are more suitable for ite. it is also depends on course and industry. Some courses such as science requires degree

W Goo, [15/1/2025 11:44 AM]

Unless the blue collar job are peg in par or better than white collar (in term of wages and career ladder). 

So yes, they are being selective, but with a reason (We can ask ourselves now. Would we change to blue collar job now).

Gov intervention is never enough. There's balancing need to be done every now and then. So far so good but foresight is need.

TreasureHunter, [15/1/2025 12:59 PM]

Govt did put a lot of effort to spot the future economy. And to be ready for the workforce of the future, education are ready in place. For that I voted yes in Q1. The education in Poly would say is of good quality but in an open job market where your competitor could be a uni grad from another country could make poly grad lose out. For that I voted no in Q2

Dr. Goh, [15/1/2025 1:13 PM]

Poly education not enough for higher end jobs. Training students to do repetitive technical work essentially. The decades old problem of suppressing pay because employees don't have degrees is still existent.

If you also observe job listings many employers play the chicken and egg game. Need long list of experience to qualify for an entry job, so no one who upgrades or switches field can ever qualify. Then likely to bring in kakilang for the job.

Even if you place a hard quota on hiring the country will still run smoothly. Employers are simply playing the lowball game knowing government will support them.

Also, to prove that foreign talent policies actually work, try not giving out grants for supporting jobs for new citizens, see how many of them are talented enough to keep the companies rooted here. Must test real ability, not give out tax dollars like freebies and then create the falsehood that we actually bring in many real talents. Put in hard quota for hiring local born as a significant percentage of payroll to qualify for grants. We don't need to waste money keeping companies that don't want to contribute. Many jobs just need you to have that title. The roles are not difficult at all and the experience will basically qualify people for other similar roles based on experience alone. You could press a button on AI and many of these jobs will disappear today.

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 1:35 PM]

This is why gov needs to expand uni placements to ensure every student can get into it

A lot of jobs need degree as an entry level and low end job hardly have a future. 

If you work as a plumber you will always be plumber. Hardly your career path can bring you to top management and value add in the knowledge compared to a accountant which have more career path and longer runway

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 1:38 PM]

For poly look at life sciences course a lot of the jobs required to have a degree

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:00 PM]

I not agree with 'every student can get into uni'. Dilutes the standard and purpose of degree. If everyone degree then what's the point of it? Next time must aim for masters?

Also, being a plumber might not mean want to move into management roles. You could become a specialist in certain pipes/taps and charge more based on those repair/installation.

Or jack up your asking prices because there's no competition. One of the reasons why maintenance stuff so expensive now.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:02 PM]

Also, blue collar jobs have some degree of freedom. Plumbers could set their own appointment times, decide to accept the task or not etc. 

Kind of why ppl want to be grab drivers or delivery. Freedom of choice and working hours

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 2:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:06 PM]

Currently, why are we importing degree holders? Do we want to force singaporean into a diploma so that thier foreign bosses have a singaporean to supervise? Why do we give place to foreign students if our locals have no room?

Would the standard of the degree drop because we let more people in? Surely there is a way of accounting for that. Employers already differentiate between an A student and those below

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:08 PM]

So the question of if every singaporean has a degree. Look at what we are doing now. Do we have singaporean laborers or maids. DO We want that? Of course not. We know what we need to do if every singaporean is highly educated

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:10 PM]

We also know what companies will do whenever they complain 'not enough local talent'

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:13 PM]

Remember, we are competing internationally. And a hugeee portion of our workforce arent singaporean. If every singaporean has a degree, job placement will be filled up via import

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:16 PM]

Every Singapore to have a degree? Some people do not do well with theory based learning, which most degrees are. Force them to take degree just to flunk them at the end?

There's no specific way of differentiate between grades. I know of some uni holders that have bad work attitudes etc. whereas a poly grad could be more hardworking and technically better.

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:17 PM]

Im not saying to force them, but to remove the artificial cap

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:18 PM]

Since competing globally, we need to be strong in what we're good at. Some are more skills based, others research, or programming.

Opportunities have to be provided for them, if they want, to be trained and specialize in what they want to be good at.

Instead of forcing them to degree pathway

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:19 PM]

In fact, these days we Must encourage more people in your uni. You know what happens to your precious degree when the uni has not enough students. Because of declining pop, the uni has a real risk of shutting down

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:19 PM]

What artificial cap are you referring?

Uni places or work permit quotas or something else?

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:23 PM]

Uni has limit the admissions so there is enough space but from what i see, there is still plenty of space, especially with hybrid virtual these days

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:24 PM]

And we are still taking in foreign student. Now they might be the cream of the crop(i doubt it) but its an indicator that there is room not used for developing locals

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:37 PM]

Is Singapore still trapped in the qualification trap attitudes?

Degree qualifications may gives the person a head start. doesn't mean it will be smooth sailing or successful career with high paying pay cheques.

......

assuming, every Singaporean is academically good and able to obtain degree qualifications...

how is all of them going to be CEO? managers?

Cleaners? Sales like insurance agent, bankers? Hawkers?

..............

What about entrepreneur? business starters? it is about individual's will, attitude, determination and drives to make it good or great in life.

how to sell oneself, advertising, branding and positioning in the competitive market out there.

...........

and yes, we need foreign students, so that hopefully those talented willing to contribute to Singapore's progress.

it is a competitive world, internationally. Cannot be a frog in the well thinking we can live comfortably without a good fight for employability, and, or, starting of businesses, creating jobs, and new jobs for Singapore.

......

the problem with some Singaporean, is that a portion of us lagging behind in competitiveness, competency and capabilities, and still want that high paying job.

stop complaining and start working hard, as in using our brains thinking of ways to get that dream job with good pay by upgrading, self improvement, self branding etc.

while doing so...the government must continuous monitoring the ground to deter discrimination, monopolizing of workplace with unfair recruitment practices.

Like tribalism recruitment...the so called, for e.g only, indian hiring indian not because of abilities assessment, but because they are indian, or Chinese hiring chinese only.

does such unfair hiring exist... realistic it does exist.. but to detect it and proves it...is not an easy straight forward task.

..........

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:41 PM]

If open uni to all sg that wants, then why current students still want to go ivy league unis? Even though they can go local uni?

Is it a matter of prestige because they have restrictions and companies want to hire them because they are hard to enter?

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:44 PM]

Singaporean still stuck in the thinking that degree qualifications = confirmed employability with high paying jobs.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:45 PM]

I don't know what would happen to open all? Could it become like compulsory secondard education, whereby that cert is almost useless for workplace

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:46 PM]

Mistake, should be primary school cert

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:48 PM]

it will lower the quality... eventually.

 if the standard is not uphold with strict criteria.

it doesn't mean anyone have a degree can contribute to society...

or able to compete internationally.

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:52 PM]

Chicken an egg problem. We are trapped in degree qualification because of employers. If you see public service stop asking you will see less people trying to get degree

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 2:56 PM]

Because a lot of jobs that one desire needs a degree

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:56 PM]

A lot of job placements ask for a degree. But really doesnt need it


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 2:58 PM]

*Pathway to Universities*


1. There are 2 pathways to Universities, 

a. the main pathway is through JCs (provide a solid foundation in math, science such as physics, chemistry, biology, computing and GP to cultivate critical thinking skills and appreciation of national and global development) - in preparation for entrance into Universities on industry specialization at higher level/R&D.

b. the secondary pathway is through polytechnics (focus in industry specialization) - in preparation for entry into workforce upon graduation.


2. The reason why polytechnics is created is because there are middle roles like technicians, junior engineers and technical roles that needs hands-on implementation skillsets that is immediately relevant to the needs of the organisation.


3. Universities produce graduates that can work at strategic level, management role, engineer and senior engineer level, able to do critical thinking, think out of the box and connect dots to appreciate a bigger picture in which the organisation operates (eg. understand the organisations customers, partners, supply chain, competitive landscape, oppportunities and threat, growth potential, technological advantages, R&D potential for new market, comparative advantage, competitive advantages etc)


Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 3:01 PM]

unfortunately, or fortunately,

Degree Qualifications is a measure of a person's abilities, organization skills, leadership, capabilities...

provided the education system is properly designed and uphold.

.....what other ways to measure a person's abilities, quality, capabilities and leadership?

i can think of one. place a person on a task, deep end of the pool, and see how the person perform. what is the outcome of the task.

ultimately, in the commercial market... result is what matters.

without result, e.g. profits, so what the person has a degree qualifications...the company will definitely replace the person with someone else who can produce results.

other than that...what other ways to effectively measure a person, beside qualifications.


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 3:32 PM]

1. Recall a team of well trained technical engineers - jump straight into design and produce a technical sound design and technical solutions with BOM (Bill Of Materials) to bid for a tender.


2. 3 other competitior tenderers already has a "leg" to this organisation - as each has win previous tenders and run a module through 1 data centre.


3. This 4th tenderers is a "black horse" - new to the organisation - and has no incumbent advantage.


4. All the 4 tenderers need to submit a solution with 2 data centres.


5. The 4th tenderer need to provide 2 data centre solution, whereas the 3 incumbent need to provide 1 data centre solution and extend their existing systems.


6. Hence the 4th tenderer is in a very big disadvantage - because if it provide similar traditional solutions - prices will be highly uncompetitive as compare to the 3 incumbent tenderers.


7. A solution architect come along to join the tender bid. The 1st thing he did is to tell the team of competent engineers - "throw away your design and BOM" - because you will lose the tender if based on your design - because the 3 tenderers will beat you hands down - as your price will be twice the cost of your 3 incumbent competitors - if you focus on the traditional design.


8. What is the point of diligently producing the design - just "going through the motion" - and lose in the end - to show you do your job?


9. You must design to win - and beat all the 3 incumbent tenderers - and your design must be one that :-

a. Competitors has never seen or design before.

b. Reduce 2 data centre footprints into 1 data centre footprint - but distribute into 2 data centre at a similar cost like 1 data centre.

c. Compute for what will be the cost of all the 3 competitors - using traditional design - and ensure the new design will be lower than theirs.

d. Ensure the new design is light weight, highly versatile, resilient, no single point of failure, highly scalable, and highly upgradeable --- as the "selling point" that will differentiate from the 3 competitors.


10. In the end, the solution architect come out with such design - that beat the 3 incumbent competitiors in prices, in design - and set a benchmark for the organisation for future tenders for such design.


The 3 incumbent competitors fall off the chair - as they rule out the 4th tenderer as a "joker" that cannot win - just to make up the number.

And in the end, the whole IT industry 轰动 for pulling such "mission impossible feat".


11. This is what local Universities of "Ivy League" qualities should produce such graduates - to make Singapore competitive.


12. Not only producing Universities graduates for the sake of quantity and number - but high quality graduates that are competitive and can compete with the World.


Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 3:38 PM]

nice story. real incident?

ideally that's what qualifications should be. Be it diploma or degree.

ideal condition seldom exists in real life.


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 3:41 PM]

Of course real story - not make up.

Else how to relate such story.

One competitor is a global overseas competitor.

Beating it make the competition world class.

Anyway that design is the 1st in the world that produce at such a scale - at that time.

In fact, at one point, critics voice whether such design can work or scale or not.

A proof of concept was implemented within 2 weeks to convince the customer that is can scale and highly versatile and yet cost effective.


REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 4:06 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 4:10 PM]

alright. 

...

a something to note and remind ourselves...when it comes to competitiveness, anything is possible.

up to us to make the effort to think of solutions.


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:11 PM]

1. Note :- We should compare polytechnic graduates directly with JC graduates.

One armed with Diploma and the other armed with A level. 

If enter into workforce, a diploma holder will fetch higher pay $2,900 to $3,000 or over.

If A level enter into workforce, no study on salary figures - but definitely lower than diploma holder and poorer job prospect.


2. Hence, for polytechnic graduates, it is good to enter into workforce to work for 2 to 3 years to gain experience and utilise the diploma skillsets to the max - to gain valuable working experience that will not be make available to JC A level graduates going into Universities.

Also good chance to earn Universities school fees (about $30,000 or more for a 4 year course) 

For a diploma holder if work for 3 years = $3,000 x 12 months x 3 years = $108,000.

If set aside 1/3 of salaries - it will be $36,000 sufficient for Universities school fees and some living expenses.


Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 4:14 PM]

diploma should compare with degree instead of against A level.

raise the benchmark instead of lowering it.

polytechnic graduate can be as capable as degree graduate if not better, in the workforce.

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:17 PM]

Can be as capable doesnt reflect in salary

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:18 PM]

So we can say and discuss this to hell, but will gov do anything about it employer side?


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:23 PM]

3. There are multiple pathways for polytechnic graduates with working experience to further their studies in Universities.


4. Primary routes is through SIT University - whereby most polytechnic graduates should be able to gain a place. SIT University in Punggol that consolidate all polytechnic campuses provide a direct placement with industries during the University course (if I am not wrong, based on what I previously read from the CNA and Straits Times).


5. The better ones, cream of the crop from polytechincs can go to NUS and NTU "our local Ivy League qualities local Universities".

Note :- This 2 local Universities are R&D based and must have solid foundation in basic higher Math, advanced science, critical thinkings that will spur R&D innovation. This is unlike SIT University that is more industry relevant in which diploma graduates are more adapted to.

Note:- I received feedback that most polytechnic graduates do relatively well in projects that demand their industry specialisation skills. But come to foundational math, science, critical thinkings and R&D (innovative research topics) --- they mostly struggle and don't get good results for such subjects.

Note :- fail subjects are quite high and some even dropout ...


Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 4:24 PM]

Yes. But this doesn't reflect on corporate world

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

There need to be a mindset change from everyone, not only employers.

Would you want to have your kid marry a poly or degree graduate? Similar, white vs blue collar.

All of us should be looking at individual personalities and skillsets instead of our bias and sterotypes

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

So is singaporeans on the ground expected to do this?

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

For marriage I don't really care so much as long they have work life balance

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:31 PM]

How would the intl busniesses react if they get a flood of poly applicants claiming they are skilled enough?

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:33 PM]

I wonder who they will choose. The singapore poly everyone knows, or a random uni overseas, not ivy league.

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:34 PM]

I wonder how our poly grads compare though. Is there any stats?

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:35 PM]

I wonder how thoroughly employers verify credentials too


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:36 PM]

6. Of course there are other local Universities like SUSS, SMU, SUTD - that will also take in some polytechnic graduates.


7. Note :- NUS and NTU in particular also accept foreign scholarship - but the standard is very high. I heard that a France scholar after 1 semseter in NUS, dropout after that and need to repay the scholarship sponsor to the sponsor - because she say the NUS standards very high - have problem following.


8. Also same comments from foreign top students on scholarship - that study in NUS and NTU say standards are very high - and they are struggling to cope. (Read from some news).


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:43 PM]

1. Having say so, I think about half or more polytechnics graduates will progress to pursue Universities degree after working for sometimes having earn enough Universities school fees and earn some working experience.


2. The rest will work as diploma holders, gain working experience and take on professional specialise course relevant to their organisation needs and move vertically or horizontally or move up the ladder.


3. It depends on the aspiration of the diploma holders. Those who want to puruse University degrees will have a chance to do so.

Those who wish to upgrade organically with their diploma through professional certification course will also continue to do so.

I think organisation will not stop promoting a diploma graduates to higher position if they possess the potential and flair to move upwards.


Because organisation are very smart. Capable staff they will keep - whether diploma or degree holders are immaterial.

不管他是黑猫白猫，能干的猫就是好猫。


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 5:11 PM]

Eg. 

1. A diploma holder who hold a ACCA certificate earn as much as an accountant graduates.


2. A diploma holder in computer science holding a cissp or ccie earn the same pay as computer science university graduate.

So is university degree the only pathway?

Evidently not.


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 5:23 PM]

Hence all the opportunities and multiple pathways are out there.

It all depends on the individuals how to seize it.

The last thing I will blame is the government, because the government has provided all the pathways possible.

It now depends on individual how to exploit it to suit individual needs.


REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 6:05 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 6:18 PM]

the internship program in polytechnic and in university is very useful, and may increase the poly and uni undergrad chance of securing a job upon graduation.

should continue to promote it and see if it can be expanded into internship in MNC or short term internship overseas, not sure how feasible it will be.

spreading the net wide so that undergrad can have a feel and sense of the working world.

there bound to be a few who is more adventurous and capable enough to get an internship by their own effort.

(it is a good sign, and maybe an indicator that these are proactive student with self initiative and drives and planning)

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 6:47 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


====

Posted by at No comments:

Thursday, January 9, 2025

REACH (Telegram) 51 - What do you think of the Government’s position that NRICs remain personal data, and should be collected and used only when necessary? What more could be done to strengthen personal data protection?

(SK)

09 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)


REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 10:33 AM]

Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10.45am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 10:46 AM]

🔉 TOPIC 🔈

In Parliament on Jan 8, Digital Development and Information Minister Josephine Teo and Second Finance Minister Indranee Rajah addressed questions related to NRIC and the ACRA incident.

Min Teo addressed the Government's intent to change the practice of masking NRIC numbers and how the Government intended to stop some "incorrect uses" of the NRIC number today, as well as what private sector organisations should do.

Min Indranee elaborated on what happened after news of the disclosure of NRIC numbers on the Bizfile portal broke, and ACRA's next actions.

💭 What do you think of the Government’s position that NRICs remain personal data, and should be collected and used only when necessary? What more could be done to strengthen personal data protection?

📌 Incorrect use of the NRIC number

NRIC numbers remain a form of personal data, and should be collected and used only when necessary. Organisations that collect NRIC numbers have a duty of care, and must notify and seek consent on the use of the data and protect it, said Min Teo. 

Min Teo also said that NRIC numbers are a means to identify individuals but some organisations have wrongly used the numbers as a means of authentication--which assumes that a person is who he claims to be simply because he can cite an NRIC number.

Another example is when organisations collect and use partial or masked NRIC numbers. However, continuing this would give Singaporeans a "false sense of security," said Min Teo, as algorithms that can guess or work out full NRIC numbers are now available online. If people think that their full NRIC number is still secret and use it as a password or authenticator, the risk of scams or identity theft will rise, she added.

📌 Next steps for the private sector

Private sector organisations that are using NRIC numbers as authentication factors or default passwords should stop this practice as soon as possible, Min Teo.

 Min Teo also said that private sector organisations that now collect partial NRIC numbers to identify people can continue to do so. "The guidelines for the private sector have not yet changed and we will only consider how they should be updated after consulting the public", she added.

📌 ACRA's new Bizfile Portal

More than 500,000 searches were made on a Government business filing website over five days in December after news emerged that people's names and full National Registration Identity Card (NRIC) numbers could be found.

This was much higher than the usual 2,000 to 3,000 daily queries made on the ACRA Bizfile website, said Min Indranee.

However, authorities are unable to identify the exact number of NRIC numbers disclosed as the Bizfile portal is not configured to track individual queries, Ms Indranee said in a ministerial statement delivered.

“Thus far, we have not uncovered any known threat actors based on the IP addresses that were used to make the people search queries between Dec 9 and 13.”

The minister also stressed that ACRA’s database does not contain the information of all Singapore citizens.

📌 Review Panel

A review panel, led by the Head of Civil Service Leo Yip and reporting to Senior Minister Teo Chee Hean, has been set up.

Min Indranee said the panel will review the Government’s policy on the responsible use of NRIC numbers and the disclosure of full NRIC numbers on ACRA’s Bizfile portal.

The panel expects to complete its review in February and will share its findings thereafter.

🔗 [ST] https://str.sg/knvd

📎 [CNA] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/acra-bizfile-nric-numbers-unmasked-josephine-teo-mddi-4844761

📎 [CNA] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/more-500000-searches-acra-bizfile-portal-dec-9-13-nric-indranee-4844871

----


G, [9/1/2025 11:09 AM]

"More than 500,000 searches were made on a Government business filing website over five days in December after news emerged that people's names and full National Registration Identity Card (NRIC) numbers could be found.

This was much higher than the usual 2,000 to 3,000 daily queries made on the ACRA Bizfile website, said Min Indranee.

However, authorities are unable to identify the exact number of NRIC numbers disclosed as the Bizfile portal is not configured to track individual queries, Ms Indranee said in a ministerial statement delivered."

CNA also reported:

"The website's updated search function was launched on Dec 9 and most of the queries were made on Dec 13, the day after news of the NRIC numbers broke." 

"The minister also noted that a security feature designed to distinguish between human users and computer bots in the portal’s search function “was not working as intended”, following a security review by ACRA and GovTech."

So means what.. lots of data kena mined by bots and assumed leaked already right?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:15 AM]

心法:

327. I post in REACH (Telegram) LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 2:40 PM]:-

1. So in my opinion, as long as human heart and mindset don't change, regardless of how much effort put in by government to curb job discrimination - business still have a way to circumvent it.

2. Changing the heart and mindset will be more effective than focusing on policies alone.

Because no amount of policies or legislation can monitor or change a business conduct, if people's minds and heart don't change. 

(阳奉阴违 will be the outcome.) (Disguise form of conforming, but hidden ways of discriminating acts to avoid penalty).

3. As long as profit maximization and KPI remain the core principle for top management or bosses - job discrimination cannot be eradicated.

4. It begins with the bosses and top management heart and mind.

（要重組，要转型 - 从“心”开始）.

----

CNA news 08 Jan 2025 08:49PM

The manpower ministry said that while there is now legal recourse for workplace discrimination, it will still take an “education-first approach” to cultivate the right mindsets among employers and workers.


****

1. See, even the Minister concur and share the view that no amount of legislation and guidelines can curb age discrimination.


2. Only "education-first approach" to cultivate the right mindsets among the employers and workers will work.


3. Changing the heart and mind of people is the only way that can uproot unhealthy practice.

从”心”开始。


Daniel, [9/1/2025 11:16 AM]

I think that is not today's topic


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:17 AM]

4. So even young bosses and top management will grow old one day.

If their mindset don't change - next time it will be their turn.

风水轮流转。


5. This will be a powerful message to transform the young bosses and top management mindsets.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:18 AM]

Is there any information that the data has been mine by bots?

Or is it just an assumption not supported by proof?


REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 11:22 AM]

[ Poll : I am satisfied with the government's latest statements and follow-ups on the NRIC issue (Please share your views in the chats.) ]

- Yes

- Neutral

- No


G, [9/1/2025 11:22 AM]

Where's the proof that's it's not mined by bots?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:24 AM]

Simple.

If you can explain in technical terms how to detect bots operate and how to detect a legitimate device access the website - before jumping into conclusion.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:36 AM]

1. “Thus far, we have not uncovered any known threat actors based on the IP addresses that were used to make the people search queries between Dec 9 and 13.”


2. The searches came from an estimated 28,000 Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, most of which were from Singapore. 


These are 2 big clues that legitimate devices access the website and not bots even though a high volume of 500,000 search are made by 28,000 IP addresses.

I just make 2 searches yesterday.

And my IP address will be one of them that have conducted the 2 searches.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:43 AM]

1. A security feature to distinguish between a bot and legitimate device not functioning doesn't mean a bot cannot be detected.


2. There are 7 layers in an OSI model.


3. It means the app layer the 7th layer, apps layer are not working to detect the bots.


4. But there are other layers like 3rd layer and 2nd layer eg. IP address and Mac layer to detect whether bots are used.


5. Bots are usually exploited by very skillful hackers who have very strong computer science proficiencies - to hack and take over IP devices, write programming code and do a mass attack from many compromise IP devices all over the world to access the website.


6. It could even be a State hacker if bots are used because hackers will need to crack and hack many password protected ioT devices to download malware as bots into the compromised devices such as routers, IP camera, IP CCTV, servers, PCs, smartphones, any many other IP based devices or ioT remotely and then launch a massive attack on ACRA website.


7. Even if ACRA apps to detect bots fail - there are many mechanism in Telcos, CSA SIEMS and ACRA security and network devices that can detect a bot attack.


The Minister statement imply this - did not uncovered any known threat actors.

And most of the IP address come from Singapore - means public IP address are registered and issued by the Telcos through DHCP or static IP addresses traced to legitimate users.


G, [9/1/2025 11:44 AM]

"More than 500,000 searches were made on a Government business filing website over five days in December after news emerged that people's names and full National Registration Identity Card (NRIC) numbers could be found.

This was much higher than the usual 2,000 to 3,000 daily queries made on the ACRA Bizfile website, said Min Indranee.

CNA also reported:

"The website's updated search function was launched on Dec 9 and most of the queries were made on Dec 13, the day after news of the NRIC numbers broke." 

"The minister also noted that a security feature designed to distinguish between human users and computer bots in the portal’s search function “was not working as intended”, following a security review by ACRA and GovTech."

Since you like to ask others to figure it out for themselves.. you go figure it out yourself

😂

G, [9/1/2025 11:45 AM]

A bot running from your computer has no IP address?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:45 AM]

That is why you only read the face value facts without understanding the underlying mechanism how it works - and quickly jump into conclusion.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:47 AM]

Explain how IP address and Mac are assigned and how are they detected - by bots and legitimate devices.

Then convince everyone here.


G, [9/1/2025 11:48 AM]

I don't see why I have to adhere to your standard when you don't adhere to your own


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:49 AM]

Hahaha.

Any computer science or network professionals in the forum to explain to this gentleman how bots and legitimate devices work in a network?


G, [9/1/2025 11:54 AM]

Very disappointing that JT side stepped and didn't answer GG's query on whether govt agencies and organisations will be legally prohibited from using NRICs as authenticators, instead repeating her broken record on private sector

"Pointing out that large, regulated organisations such as insurers were reportedly still using NRIC numbers as default passwords, MP Gerald Giam (WP-Aljunied) asked if the government will legally prohibit government agencies and organisations from using NRIC numbers as authenticators and do so by a certain deadline.

In response, Mrs Teo said the practices for the private sector will have to be decided upon consultation."

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nric-unmasking-opposition-mps-wp-psp-acra-bizfile-portal-compensation-4845286

G, [9/1/2025 11:57 AM]

This whole saga looks, sounds, and feels like govt made mistake. But when pointed out, they turn around and blame citizens for having incorrect understanding of NRIC usage

Fine gaslighting


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 12:00 PM]

WP MP Gerald Giam is a IT manager.

He would be able to understand the Minister statement if indeed bots are attacking the website or legitimate devices are accessing the website.

Evidently, Gerald Giam didn't suggest bots are attacking the website.

Also if there are indications that bots are attacking the website - MHA, CSA and police will have taken up the case to investigate as this will be a cyberattack on a government website.

Any indication of that?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 12:38 PM]

1. Because ACRA come under MOF - and should be categorise as a CII (Critical Information Infrastructure).


2. So it should be monitored by CSA SIEMS for any sign or indication of cyberattack.


3. Looking at the news, CSA didn't raise an alert that bots are in the work or showing signs of a DDoS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack have taken place.


4. Hence another clue that legitimate devices are accessing the ACRA website, not the work of DDoS bots.


G, [9/1/2025 12:41 PM]

"One of the Block 386 residents said People's Action Party volunteers knocked on his door on Jan 4 and advised him to keep his door closed.

“There were two women from PAP who knocked on my door and they told me the opposition party was here to 'disturb',” he told The New Paper.

"They told me to ignore knocks from PSP members and keep my door closed.

“It's my first time seeing this type of behaviour and I find it childish.”"

https://tnp.straitstimes.com/news/singapore/bukit-gombak-residents-call-pap-psp-spat-childish-boh-liao

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 1:14 PM]

So it means they cannot actually distinguished if it is bots or real search of nric


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:17 PM]

Using apps that wasn't functioning at that time, couldn't. Eg. Captcha.

But through other means - can.

Later I will explain how digital forensics are done to determine whether it is a bot or legitimate users.

But it will be very technical.


Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 1:18 PM]

Ok. So they have come to a conclusion bots are involved in majority searches?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:18 PM]

They say they will review.

But the preliminary investigation does not show the sign of a bot.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:19 PM]

Later when I explain you will understand.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:21 PM]

But don't be misled by the high search rate.

I could have easily perform 10 searches in one access to the ACRA website.

Though I say 2 searches yesterday, but more than 10 results come out.

So it could be 20 searches.

I don't know how ACRA website tabulate the search results.

My physical search are 2 but result are 20 searches.


Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 1:22 PM]

Oh

G, [9/1/2025 1:22 PM]

Confusing "searches" with "search results"?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:23 PM]

Go to do the search if you want to know what I mean.


G, [9/1/2025 1:23 PM]

Here say 500,000 searches


G, [9/1/2025 1:24 PM]

Your comment try to equate "searches" with "search results"


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:25 PM]

Sigh....

Not answering.


G, [9/1/2025 1:25 PM]

So be misled with this attempt?

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 1:26 PM]

Regardless there will be 500000 data being revealed

G, [9/1/2025 1:26 PM]

Are you saying minister trying to mislead by saying "500,000 searches"?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:26 PM]

Yes.

I will spend time responding to your more intelligent questions later.


G, [9/1/2025 1:29 PM]

Assumes 1 result per search

But according to @DannyCIN, he say 2 search, with 10 results = 20 searches. 

According to his formula, if 500,000 searches have 10 results, = 5,000,000 searches

RY, [9/1/2025 1:55 PM]

If I rem correctly, they did hold a press conf and ACRA did apologise to the public

RY, [9/1/2025 1:59 PM]

There is mis-communication/mis-understanding in the govt directives to ACRA 

Maybe govt/top mgmt shd learn fm this "mistake" incident 

Nothing is perfect, and we shd always learn fm 'mistake" always

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 2:01 PM]

🔉 TOPIC 🔈

RY, [9/1/2025 2:01 PM]

What has happened already happen

Most important is to quickly "salvage" whatever "data disclosure" damage fm this saga, admit "mistake" made and learn fm the lesson

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 2:04 PM]

I think responsibility and punishment should be done after the whole incident

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 2:05 PM]

Investigation

Hanny, [9/1/2025 2:06 PM]

IC number should never be used for authentication. There has been many break-ins in the past and many ic numbers have been compromised. Mining IC numbers can also be easily performed at shops. In the old days, people sell name and address to credit card issuers. Now people sell ic numbers.

RY, [9/1/2025 2:07 PM]

NRiC certainly is our personal data and should not be widely used or openly disclosed 

However, wondering when govt mention private orgn, does it include banks / insurance companies also ?

As these orgn widely used NRIC info as verification/authenication too

Hanny, [9/1/2025 2:11 PM]

Government should make it illegal to use ic for authentication.

RY, [9/1/2025 2:11 PM]

Govt already set up a grp to specially investigate this "saga"

Believe rectification/improvement proposal will be included in the Report later

RY, [9/1/2025 2:20 PM]

Scamming is so so so common nowsaday due to digital world and  IT "hacking" (leaking of personal data)

Hence, NRIC shd be masked and not widely used 

Same analogy as credit/debit card details in payment receipt


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 2:25 PM]

*Part 1 - How preliiminary investigation can be conducted through digital forensic in the absence of bot detector apps to determine if bots or legitimate users access the ACRA search website.*


1. Normally to determine  whether a bot has accessed a website, Bot detector like CAPTCHA will challenge the users to provide the right answer that will be difficult for bots to solve.

Then the Government will be able to provide proof without reasonable doubt that a bot has access the ACRA website.

As such apps is not functioning at that time, such empirical evidence cannot be captured and produce to tabulate indeed how many bots have attacked the ACRA website without reasonable doubt.


2. Then more technical and indepth digital forensic need to be conducted - to correlate and derive whether indeed a bot or legitimate user are accessing ACRA website to do the search.


3. The information given by the Minister are that :-


a. 28,000 IP addressess have accessed the ACRA website search. (They have to be public IP address registered and issued by Telcos through DHCP or static IP address assigned - to the IP devices - to allow Internet connection and access to take place. And public IP addresses have to be unique in the World - else IP address conflict will take place causing IP connection to fail. Hence it cannot be a private IP address - assigned by a hacker or any users).

Hence Telco will be able to trace who are assigned with this IP address - is it a handphone user, broadband laptop users, or ioT registered devices (that will be compromise by hackers).


b. Most of these IP addressess come from Singapore. Means Telcos, Government can do forensic studies on their network and security devices to examine if the IP address are legitimate users or ioT devices - from the network information stored in the Telco network databse.


These 2 are vital clues - that will allow digital forsenics to be conducted to establish whether a bot or legitimate users are accessing the ACRA website - as they are all within the network domain of Singapore Internet network.

---


G, [9/1/2025 2:28 PM]

They should also make it illegal for themselves to use IC for authentication? 

Else it be another PDPA.. rules for thee, but not for me?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 2:43 PM]

Part 2 - Let us understand how does a bot work.


1. Based on the 28,000 IP address accessing ACRA websites - if a bot takes place, it will be a hybrid of legitimate users and bot attacks. But bots being automated will dominate the access - as it work in a mass DDoS and faster than users with hand click to access the website - and crowd out all the legitimate users.


2. Hence for easier discussion, we assume 28,000 IP addresses are bots that have crowd out all legitimate users.


3. Hackers will need to hack into 28,000 IP based ioT devices - that will be protected by various means of security protection.

It could be a simple userid/password, it could be 2FA, it could be multi-factor authentication, it could be biometric protection, it could be digital token, secured by all sorts of encryption algorithm eg. RSA, 3DES, DES, AES etc.

And the ioT can be servers, PCs, laptops, network devices like routers, LAN switches, IT security devices like firewall, IPS, Proxies, APT, smartphones, IP CCTV, IP camera, IP fridge, IP aircon, IP cars etc.

To do so, a very big team of very skilled computer science, network, security system hackers etc - with very diverse range of IT knowledge such as Apple iOS, Android, Microsoft OS, Unix, Linux, Cisco ioS, TCP/IP, VMs, etc

Indeed everything happens in Singapore, that means to pool such a big teams of bot attacks - Singapore all network professionals, IT security professionals, white hackers, AI expertise, IT system professionals etc ---- albeit State Hacker effort will be needed to hack into ioT devices - write the malware, load into the ioT devices, set the time to launch a coordinated DDoS attack on the ACRA website.


Else it will be a global season hackers doing coordinated bots attack.


Or it would be a foreign State Hacker pulling all their resources to launch the bots attack.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 2:45 PM]

Hacking into 1 ioT device is a very difficult task for a well protected ioT device by a professional hacker.

Compromising 28,000 ioT devices ....


RY, [9/1/2025 2:50 PM]

Let the special panel set up by govt do the investigation, as they will have/engage the professionals and resources to do so 

We dont require to discuss in details, as it is not within our expertise and resources to do so

G, [9/1/2025 2:51 PM]

Let him say. He wants to showcase his technical know-how and try to prove and convince us that it's not a bot attack

RY, [9/1/2025 2:56 PM]

PDPA is a gd Bill pass by Govt and authority being set up to protect personal data privacy 

I recd much much lesser scams and unsolicited sales calls/message nowsadays 

And receipts dont imprint my full card details (except last 4 digits) anymore

RY, [9/1/2025 2:59 PM]

In my opinion, rectifying and learning the mistakes, and room for improvement is more essential

Khai Mun L., [9/1/2025 3:01 PM]

It's a matter of perspective here. Some think nric should be confidental info, but some is not.

Especially when nric numbers have been already exposed out e.g. in the past or recent. Should we still continue with it as confidential?

What can be used to identify if a person is real? Maybe a combination of information, or setup some new social security number?

G, [9/1/2025 3:01 PM]

Yes.. but PDPA does not apply to govt..


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 3:03 PM]

Part 3 - What is the technical mechanism in a network - that determine whether it is a bot or a legitimate users?


1. When a legitimate user buy a smartphone, it will have to be registered with a Telco - who will assign a public IP address (Layer 3) to the user smartphone (could be DHCP - Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol) or static IP address.

This smartphone MAC (Medium Access Control) address (Layer 2) - also a registered unique address in the World (assign to device manufacturer) - will be capture by the Telco.

Both of these 2 information will uniquely identified the legitimate user. (Of course IMEI number will also be capture).


2. When a legitimate user buy a broadband/WiFi from a Telco - likewise  public IP address, MAC address will also be registered and assigned by the Telcos with telephone number - again uniquely identifying the legitimate users


3. When user buy ioT devices like IP CCTV, IP camera etc - it will have to be registered with a Telco - because it need Telcos to assigned public IP address for Internet connection - and again MAC address are also capture by the Telcos - uniquely identifying this is a ioT device and not legitimate user.

So assume this ioT is compromise and hack by hackers to operate as bot, digital forensic conducted by the Government through network information given by Telcos - will have identified if this ioT operate by bots has indeed access ACRA website.


4. Based on the Minister statement - no known threat actor has access the ACRA website - which means no ioT IP address and MAC are capture to have access ACRA website.

It means legitimate users IP address and MAC address are accessing ACRA website.


5. MAC address which is a directly access layer 2 information through ARP (Address Resolution Protocol) and DHCP to acquire layer 3 IP address will be required for a legitimate user or iOT to connect and access the ACRA website.


6. Hence studying the logs in ACRA routers, firewall, server and Telco's security and network logs as well as CSA SIEMS security, incident and events management systems and logs --- will have revealed that legitimate users with registered public IP address and MAC address have accessed the ACRA websites and not ioT devices.


This will have ruled out the bot attacks.


RY, [9/1/2025 3:03 PM]

That explains the ACRA saga ... 

Then Govt shd look into PDPA also then

G, [9/1/2025 3:05 PM]

Hence Gerald Giam's asking "...if the government will legally prohibit government agencies and organisations from using NRIC numbers as authenticators and do so by a certain deadline..."

But JT side stepped and kept on talking only about private organisations

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nric-unmasking-opposition-mps-wp-psp-acra-bizfile-portal-compensation-4845286

RY, [9/1/2025 3:05 PM]

NRiC certainly is personal and confidential data

Otherwise, it wont be used as verification/authenication purposes

RY, [9/1/2025 3:08 PM]

Different people may have different perspectives 

But personal data is personal data, it is a fact ultimately

Khai Mun L., [9/1/2025 3:13 PM]

Going by this, i would think government should not be bound to same strict standards as private sector.

Some method of authentication needs to be used by them. Especially when sharing info across agencies e.g. hdb to iras for tax matters, moh to cpf for medical claims etc

Khai Mun L., [9/1/2025 3:14 PM]

But then gray area comes in for agencies such as ACRA and semi-gov hospital/education sectors

RY, [9/1/2025 3:14 PM]

That is also my earlier msg/qns

Is banks/insurance companies consider private orgns ?

As they also use NRIC as part of their authenication process

RY, [9/1/2025 3:16 PM]

Agreed and the govt/special panel set up should review on this also


Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:34 PM]

PDPA is applicable to all gov agencies. Hence when one gov agency has your data, only that agency has access to that data. I worked in gov before.


G, [9/1/2025 3:35 PM]

Yes. They are private organisations


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 3:35 PM]

Oh just curious which gov  department you work in?


Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:35 PM]

Banks don’t use ic as authentication now. They usually send sms or use app to authenticate.


Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:36 PM]

Govtech


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 3:36 PM]

I see.

From science park to suntec to mapletree.


G, [9/1/2025 3:37 PM]

No. That act is not applicable to govt agencies. 

This is mentioned in para 1.7 of PDPC's advisory guidelines for NRIC numbers

"These Guidelines do not apply to the collection, use and disclosure of NRIC numbers (or copies of NRIC), and the retention of physical NRICs by a public agency or an organisation that is acting on behalf of a public agency. Public agencies in Singapore (including Government Ministries, Statutory Boards and Organs of State) are excluded from the Data Protection Provisions of the PDPA."

Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:39 PM]

In practice, it’s not easy for gov agencies to gain access from another agency. By default, no access.

G, [9/1/2025 3:39 PM]

This is different from saying that govt agencies need to comply with PDPA.. Especially when PDPA itself already excludes govt bodies

Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:41 PM]

My Singpass used to show single. But I am definitely married. I filled up many forms with gov and still Singpass show single. It took me a while to get this status changed.

RY, [9/1/2025 3:42 PM]

When go to the bank for some transactions, they still using physical NRIC as part of their verification purposes

G, [9/1/2025 3:42 PM]

footnote 3 for para 1.7:

The Data Protection Provisions are found in Parts III to VI of the PDPA. Section 4(1)(c) of the PDPA provides that Parts III to VI shall not impose any obligation on any public agency or organisation in the course of acting on behalf of a public agency in relation to the collection, use or disclosure of the personal data

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:44 PM]

I think certain gov agencies should adopt private practice of masking nric. Because I don't see there's a need for some agencies to have the nric

RY, [9/1/2025 3:45 PM]

Govt as own data privacy protection law known as "Public Section Governance Act" (PSGA) that they have to comply with - Refer to the Pdf file forwarded

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:46 PM]

For instance acra should not have taken full unmasked nric

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:47 PM]

As in public eyes it's like a private organisation with gov duties

RY, [9/1/2025 3:48 PM]

ACRA is not consider private orgn though

G, [9/1/2025 3:49 PM]

Link please?

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:49 PM]

I understand. But... You seldom heard this org until this incident happens

RY, [9/1/2025 3:50 PM]

https://www.smartnation.gov.sg/files/publications/government-personal-data-protection-policies-apr2020.pdf

RY, [9/1/2025 3:51 PM]

The link and the Pdf file

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:51 PM]

So I feel that certain things that is not so sensitive should not use nric as identifiers

RY, [9/1/2025 3:54 PM]

If work in law or company secretary companies, they liaise closely with ACRA

RY, [9/1/2025 3:57 PM]

As individual, I do use ACRA to check any SG co entity

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 4:00 PM]

🔉 TOPIC 🔈

RY, [9/1/2025 4:02 PM]

I rem I went to the bank for some transactions last year, and I ask if I may use my digital IC 

The bank staff reply to me that some transactions still require the physical IC and not all transactions may use digital IC


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:05 PM]

Yes.

This is still the same practice.

They will still need to take photos of front and back of IC.


RY, [9/1/2025 4:06 PM]

Sometimes we need to check the authencity of any company existence in SG and if they still active/valid, as many fake (scam) companies nowsaday

Hence, ACRA is the best way to check


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:06 PM]

But using IC number as user id is no longer the practice in banks.

Last time some banks still do it.

Now no more.

IC number not safe as authenticator.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:08 PM]

Banks like DBS issue very unique password to decrypt encrypted financial documents.

DBS don't used IC number as part of authentication.

But some local, offshore banks and financial institutions still use part of IC number to decrypt financial documents.

I am not going to list which financial institutions and banks do it for security reasons.

I still receive a couple of financial documents from such banks.


RY, [9/1/2025 4:09 PM]

Hospitals/Medisave deduction appln, all req hardcopy of IC  to submit


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:11 PM]

Yes.

This are still the practice.

So need a long runway to move such organisations out of IC number as authenticator.

Honestly, from IT perspective - IC number not safe.

Easily compromised.


RY, [9/1/2025 4:11 PM]

Recently I bring my family for Day Rehab svs

Bec obtaining govt subsidy, the private Healthcare orgn also hardcopy of patient IC

RY, [9/1/2025 4:13 PM]

Many orgn still using IC hardcopy and not all accepting digital IC 

And not all appln/Cpf deduction  are online also


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:14 PM]

Meanwhile still need to keep IC number mask intact and not widely distributed to the public.

Because the use of IC number still very pervasive.

No joke.


RY, [9/1/2025 4:15 PM]

All these orgn are non-govt, but they still require physical IC for the appln and etc

RY, [9/1/2025 4:18 PM]

If dont have/dont know how to use singpass, still require physical IC to go to CC to collect CDC vouchers

RY, [9/1/2025 4:19 PM]

Hence NRIC is a very important data we require to use for appln/collection/deduction and etc

RY, [9/1/2025 4:25 PM]

It is right to say that NRIC shd not be widely circulated, as we require NRIC for many purposes

As NRiC still use as verification/application/transaction and etc 

Although singpass help to digitalise some of the appln eg CDC eVoucher redemption, but not appln can be digitalised

RY, [9/1/2025 4:34 PM]

Recently I want to book my family for covid vaccine at GP, after the closure of JTVC 

I was told by the GP that must book appt using singpass online 

Wondering how those IT/english illiterate elderly/handicapped people can book for their covid vaccine at GP without singpass ?

Govt encourage vulnerable people to take covid vaccine

However they also make it "difficult" to take covid vaccine for this grp of people without singpass/illiterate/people with mobility problems 

My area polyclinics, all dont provide covid vaccine except GP clinics ......

G, [9/1/2025 5:22 PM]

So apparently metapneumovirus infection is listed as a side effect of Pfizer's covid jab

It's in

APPENDIX 1. LIST OF ADVERSE EVENTS OF SPECIAL INTEREST

From the document CUMULATIVE ANALYSIS OF POST-AUTHORIZATION ADVERSE EVENT REPORTS on Pfizer's covid jab 

https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 6:01 PM]

🔉 TOPIC 🔈

RY, [9/1/2025 6:40 PM]

SingPass is a very gd digital platform to access to govt/bank/others transaction/appln and etc

However, hope govt may also make things easier for those non-singpass users (illiterate/handicapped) also eg covid vaccine online booking appt 

As now I am unable to make any covid vaccine appt for my family (non-singpass user) at GP clinics

RY, [9/1/2025 6:41 PM]

Tks for the info, not taking pfizer

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 7:03 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


====


Posted by at No comments:
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)