REACH (Telegram) 18 - What are your views on the Job Seeker Support Scheme? What more can be done to support unemployed Singapore residents as they seek re-employment?

(SK)

28 Aug 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 10:01 AM]

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REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 10:05 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

On Wednesday, 27 August 2024, Minister for Manpower Tan See Leng unveiled the Job Seeker Support scheme’s eligibility criteria during a visit to the Devan Nair Institute for Employment and Employability.

Under this scheme, which was first announced during Prime Minister Lawrence Wong’s National Day Rally, eligible Singapore residents will receive up to $6,000 over six months, starting with $1,500 in the first month, and subsequently tapering down, if they meet the requirements. It will be rolled out in April 2025 and is set to benefit about 60,000 jobless Singapore residents. 

💬 What are your views on the Job Seeker Support Scheme? What more can be done to support unemployed Singapore residents as they seek re-employment?

More details on the Job Seeker Support Scheme:

📌 Eligibility Criteria

To be eligible for the SkillsFuture Jobseeker Support, job seekers must have earned $5,000 or less a month on average for the duration of their previous employment within the last 12 months. They must also have worked for at least six out of the 12 months preceding their application for the scheme, must demonstrate that they are actively seeking a job, and cannot be living in a property with an annual value of more than $25,000. 

The scheme will be open to Singaporeans aged 21 and above at launch, before being extended to permanent residents aged 21 and above from the first quarter of 2026

📌 Benefits of the Scheme

Job seekers will receive up to $6,000 over six months, starting with $1,500 in the first month, and subsequently tapering down, if they meet the requirements. However, the monthly payouts are capped at an individual’s previous-drawn monthly salary, and they stop once the job seeker finds work. 

Those who have received payouts will not be able to make another application within three years of their last scheme payout, but there is otherwise no limit on how many times they can be covered by this scheme.

📌 Complementing other social support schemes

The Ministry of Manpower and Workforce Singapore said in a joint statement issued on Aug 27 that the payout quantum is not sized to meet the needs of households facing financial distress as a result of a household member becoming involuntarily unemployed. Job seekers can still benefit from social support schemes such as ComCare Short-To-Medium-Term Assistance.

Those who undertake reskilling or upskilling can still receive additional training allowances that they qualify for separately, such as the SkillsFuture Mid-Career Training Allowance

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/jobs/new-skillsfuture-jobseeker-support-scheme-to-start-from-april-2025

-----

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 11:04 AM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you satisfied with the Job Seeker Support Scheme? ]

- I am satisfied. The scheme sufficiently supports job seekers as they seek re-employment.

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views below).

- I am dissatisfied. I feel a lot more can be done (please share your views below).

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 11:04 AM]

[ Poll : 2. How else can job seekers be supported? ]

- Improved career coaching/ job matching services

- Greater support for upskilling/ reskilling

- Increased financial support

- Others (please share your views below)

Adam, [28/8/2024 11:09 AM]

Funny how the problem is framed as the onus is on the jobseekers. Imagine if the rulers understand there are bigger undelying issues making it harder for singaporean employment

Hanny, [28/8/2024 11:12 AM]

This scheme is one of the things that are available for job seekers. 

We need to ensure that the people who really need assistance know their options.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 11:16 AM]

Improve the knowledge of the coaches. Increase the number of coaches.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 11:18 AM]

Increase the visibility of the coaches

G, [28/8/2024 11:48 AM]

How come PRs are included to benefit from this?

Doesn't it cheapen citizenship?

Even if want to include PR, the benefits should be tiered to reflect the value of citizenship

It is also mischievous for this govt to keep using the "Singapore residents" term

G, [28/8/2024 11:56 AM]

There needs to be a stop to lump PRs and Singaporeans together for statistics and benefits

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 12:04 PM]

1. This retrenchment temporary grants is indeed a modest step to provide temporary relief for retrenched as the amount ranging from $1,500, $1,000 step down to $750 for 6 months with a total of $6,000 is not alot.

It dosen't look like a welfare scheme.

2. It can only buy food and probably transport for the retrenched workers to tie through the 6 months to look for replacement jobs or get trained and placement.

3. Notice that the criteria to meet this temporary payout is meant for lower and middle lower income as the salary must be less than $5,000 a month.

4. However, most mid career workers will likely to exceed $5,000 a month.

And these mid career groups are most likely belong to the sandwich class:-

a. Young children still in schools.

b. Elderly parents to take care.

c. Mid career workers are harder to secure a replacement jobs due to their age and higher income.

The only consolation is that they will still receive training allowance if they go for reskilling or upskilling to at least able to put food on the tables.

Adam, [28/8/2024 12:08 PM]

https://youtu.be/RKwY89p5WgA

Can we report CNA for pofma? Headline says 40% of singaporeans but in survey is from singaporeans and pr. Why do they keep doing this?

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 12:20 PM]

Thought the scheme will be more inclusive if it also includes:-

Retrenched workers even if salary > $5,000 - as long as they are retrenched.

Because they are no less financially distress after retrenchment - as their financial commitment could be higher as they still need to finance their housing loans, pay daily expenses, children expenses and parents allowance.

At least the temporary grants of $6,000 can relieve their worry of putting food on the tables for 6 months.

xXx.SCAR.xXx, [28/8/2024 12:21 PM]

Good point about the mid-career group of people. At 40 to 55 years old, life is really stressful 😔

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 12:25 PM]

60,000 retrenched workers X $6,000 for 6 months is about $360 million set aside for the temporary retrenchment grants.

Assume those mid career retrenched workers are another 60,000, then a total of $720 million is needed.

Fiscal affordability wise, not sure is it too much for our government budget to take?

But at least, retrenched workers will feel a temporary relief - at least food is not a problem for their families members for 6 months.

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 12:28 PM]

Because cannot assume > $5,000 salary a month are rich people.

Their financial burden could be higher.

Providing the means to put food on the table temporarily for 6 months, a physiological need - will be a compassionate inclusive move.

G, [28/8/2024 12:39 PM]

😂 but in your calculations, $5,000 per month single income household can afford 5 room bto flat with zero cash payments!

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 12:42 PM]

Note:-

Assume housing loan a month $2,000 is finance from CPF OA account.

If mid career workers 40 - 55 years old are retrenched - their 20 to 25 years housing loans still need to be serviced.

So upon retrenchment, a mid career worker salary $5,001 will need to set aside $2,000 cash to pay the housing loan instead of deduction from CPF OA.

That means, the retrenched workers will only left with $3,001.

If $1,000 is given as allowance to the parents.

$1,000 to pay the children school expenses.

$1,000 to pay for electricity, water, utilities, handphone bills, conservancy charges etc.

This retrenched worker only left with $1 for food.

And this is the 1st month that the retrenched workers can finance.

If this retrenched workers cannot find jobs in the subsequent month, the whole families will go hungry, cannot finance the housing loan, cannot pay for their daily living expenses.

So at least if got $6,000 retrenchment temporary grants for 6 months, they still can buy food and won't go hungry.

Hence, being inclusive for retrenched workers even if salary > $5,000 - I feel is a necessity, an inclusive compassionate move - until the retrenched workers find a replacement job.

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 12:50 PM]

Hence I was quite surprised that the retrenchment temporary grants have a maximum salary cap as the qualifying criteria.

Because regardless of salary, retrenchment is a trauma to the whole family, psychologically and physically.

Next month without jobs, regardless of whatever income the workers received previously, the income is "0" subsequently.

But bills and expenses keep piling up.

Providing temporary relief for food for the retrenched families in "shell shock" - at least is the minimum physiological need and compassionate move to help the family recover.

And a push factor to motivate retrenched workers regardless of past income to actively retrained or seek jobs.

G, [28/8/2024 12:55 PM]

😂 pre retrenchment doesn't 20% of that $5001 goes to CPF?

And $5001 earner will never contribute $2,000 to OA per month to pay off housing loan

Hanny, [28/8/2024 12:55 PM]

I look at this scheme as a surgical scheme to help certain group of people.

Let’s not forget the comprehensive solutions that are available to workers of all type. 

Are the career coaches familiar with all of them?

Hanny, [28/8/2024 12:56 PM]

Make the career coach easily accessible.

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 12:57 PM]

I think if register with e2i, career coach is usually available.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 1:00 PM]

Career coaches should go to the heartland to promote their services.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 1:00 PM]

I don’t think many people is familiar with E2I

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 1:00 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you satisfied with the Job Seeker Support Scheme? ]

- I am satisfied. The scheme sufficiently supports job seekers as they seek re-employment.

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views below).

- I am dissatisfied. I feel a lot more can be done (please share your views below).

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 1:00 PM]

[ Poll : 2. How else can job seekers be supported? ]

- Improved career coaching/ job matching services

- Greater support for upskilling/ reskilling

- Increased financial support

- Others (please share your views below)

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 1:01 PM]

Usually career coach in short supply.

They are HR professionals.

Even if register with e2i, I think needs to request for one

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 1:01 PM]

Hmm...

That's true.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 1:01 PM]

Hence the need to increase the number and improve the quality.

G, [28/8/2024 1:04 PM]

PRs should not be included with this certain group of people

Hanny, [28/8/2024 1:05 PM]

I don’t know how difficult it is to recruit hr professional. My feeling is, given the current market. It shouldn’t be difficult.

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:25 PM]

There scheme also excludes people based on annual value of property. So if you live in parent big house probably cannot get

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:27 PM]

I wonder how many underemployed or unemployed singaporeans there are

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:27 PM]

In total, How many % will benefit from this

Hanny, [28/8/2024 1:28 PM]

Gov knows the number. They mentioned how many people will benefit from this scheme.

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 1:29 PM]

96,000 unemployed.

Only 60,000 benefits from this scheme.

36,000 are not covered.

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:30 PM]

Read carefully

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:30 PM]

Article says residents

Hanny, [28/8/2024 1:30 PM]

Gov should make it easy for people to understand what schemes are applicable to them. This can be easily calculated.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 1:32 PM]

As long as we don’t replace ourselves properly, I don’t think we rely purely on citizens to be productive. All unproductive residents are burdens to gov n society.

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:34 PM]

However some residents have contributed greatly in the past. Contributions that cannot be measured in dollars and cents. Contributions so great they lag behind their peers in the same age

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 1:34 PM]

PR also pay taxes.

Many PRs have citizens as their families members.

Some citizens cannot work (eg. Studying, NS etc), whereas the PRs in the families work.

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 1:37 PM]

Eventually these PRs will become new citizens.

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:37 PM]

Yea i agree some pr should be citizens and entitled to the benefits. But with benefits come sacrifices. They for one need to renounce thier foreign citizenship, and at the very least speak our tongue

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 1:40 PM]

PRs will normally renounce their homeland citizenships only after they get citizenship in Singapore.

They don't do it before they get Singapore citizenship.

I am not sure whether Singapore allows dual citizenship.

I thought PR cannot hold more than 1 citizenship once Singapore award them citizenship?

I need to confirm this from official sources. Now is only based on my assumption.

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:40 PM]

Tbh idk what is going on with citizenship application. From what i heard its ethnic quota

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 1:42 PM]

The position of the Singapore Government is that dual citizenship is not allowed. The laws regarding Singapore citizenship are found in the Constitution of Singapore. A dual citizen may have acquired citizenship by birth in a foreign country, by descent from a foreign citizen parent, or by naturalisation.9 Mar 2024.

Source:- Google

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:42 PM]

Singapore doesnt allow dual citizenship

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 1:45 PM]

And I heard from the PRs that to convert to Singapore citizenship is extremely difficult.

Some of my PR ex-colleagues told me that they have applied for very long (many years) - but the citizenship still not yet approved.

No one got an idea what criteria are needed to get the Singapore citizenship eventually.

And these PRs are highly qualified, many with specialist skillsets.

Some come from rich families.

G, [28/8/2024 1:46 PM]

This is a huge assumption. If being PR is already so attractive, then why need to be citizen?

G, [28/8/2024 1:47 PM]

Why is "PR also pay taxes" a strong enough argument? Like that I can also say non PR foreigners also pay taxes. How come they are excluded?

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:48 PM]

We need an express path to get citizenship. Maybe singapore can boost its citizens and military by doing something like the French Foreign Legion

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 1:48 PM]

What is the criteria of demonstrate actively seeking a job

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 1:48 PM]

Or how gov knows I am actively seeking a job

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:51 PM]

I assume you have to apply in myskillsfuture for whatever listings there are

Adam, [28/8/2024 1:51 PM]

I hope the gov audit the listings. If company reject applicant ask why

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 1:58 PM]

Like I apply job in fast job and yet keep kena rejected that is considered as actively finding a job. And gov will know right

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 1:59 PM]

Or I apply job in fastjob but reject the job offer does that consider actively finding job

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 2:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 2:03 PM]

Those receiving payouts will also need to demonstrate that they are actively seeking a job, such as through submitting job applications, attending career coaching, or participating in eligible training courses.

Asked to elaborate on how someone can show he is doing so, a WSG spokesman said: “I think these are details that we are still working on, but very broadly speaking, we do expect applicants to submit some form of documentation, and we will check this documentation.”

He added that more details will be shared closer to the launch date.

Source:- Straits Times

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 2:04 PM]

Still in the process of defining what constitutes - "actively seeking jobs".

I think not so clear cut as of now.

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 2:07 PM]

PRs is the stepping stone to become citizens.

But in Singapore, the process is very arduous and the criteria is not make known.

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 2:09 PM]

Does mlm consider a job in this scenario

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 2:09 PM]

Sorry what is mlm?

G, [28/8/2024 2:11 PM]

It is, but the fact is they are not citizens and so there needs to be a clear enough differentiation between citizens and PRs especially when benefits are pushed through

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 2:11 PM]

https://youtu.be/huIFTbp29No?si=QWHgbOvVt27HXJXo

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 2:14 PM]

Oh Multi level marketing.

I thought it is not legal in Singapore?

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 2:14 PM]

MLM activities in Singapore are governed by the Multi-level Marketing and Pyramid Selling (Prohibition) Act. In a word, MLM schemes are NOT LEGAL in Singapore, unless they are specifically excluded through meeting specific criteria.

Source:- Google

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 2:15 PM]

It's legal when selling products mah the video above should also explain that

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 2:16 PM]

When selling products you get a commission. Some famous examples Atomy, nefful etc

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 2:17 PM]

Too complicated for me to comprehend.

It somehow fall into the grey line.

Normally I will avoid stepping into such controversial situation to prevent unnecessary trouble.

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 2:19 PM]

It's a 3 min simple video can very easy to understand

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 2:20 PM]

Just asking in such situations is it consider a job

LCL (Danny 心), [28/8/2024 2:30 PM]

Which I guess could be very thorough background check, national service, feedback from bosses and their colleagues, referees, naturalisation and adaptation to local culture, contribution to the society and community, participation in resident activities, number of years staying and working in Singapore etc among others.

Dr. Goh, [28/8/2024 2:53 PM]

The rules would basically eliminate the majority of unemployed and underemployed. As usual, stingy to local born but very generous to foreigners and cronies.

Dr. Goh, [28/8/2024 2:54 PM]

Even people working at these job seeking agencies don't believe in the system.

Dr. Goh, [28/8/2024 2:55 PM]

I've worked in various organisations. Jobs are reserved for foreigners from the same village even in government linked agencies or companies with EDB funding. Just get PR or citizenship to get more perks. Don't even have to take the jobs seriously.

Dr. Goh, [28/8/2024 2:56 PM]

Most of the "talents" I saw were slacking, playing stock market, online shopping, avoiding the hard valuable work, some even fudging data and sabotaging equipment to make sure others fail.

Dr. Goh, [28/8/2024 2:57 PM]

Singapore is doomed with this.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 2:58 PM]

Singapore does not allow dual citizenship. Gov will ask potential citizens to renounce their citizenship before obtaining Singapore citizenship.

Adam, [28/8/2024 2:59 PM]

Cannot be before i think. Otherwise later got some limbo where person is stateless

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:00 PM]

Getting Singapore PR is not easy. 20k salary per month does not guarantee a PR. I work in a foreign bank and I can confirm this.

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:00 PM]

But i think it should be easier for people to get citizen, but if the incentive is so great, there is an expectation for them to pay into the system

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:01 PM]

Gov will only ask if a person assured citizenship.

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:01 PM]

Otherwise we are letting others raid our reserves

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 3:01 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you satisfied with the Job Seeker Support Scheme? ]

- I am satisfied. The scheme sufficiently supports job seekers as they seek re-employment.

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views below).

- I am dissatisfied. I feel a lot more can be done (please share your views below).

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 3:01 PM]

[ Poll : 2. How else can job seekers be supported? ]

- Improved career coaching/ job matching services

- Greater support for upskilling/ reskilling

- Increased financial support

- Others (please share your views below)

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:02 PM]

Interview panel requires at least one Singaporean.

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:04 PM]

Nah i think they need an 3rd party to audit or something

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:05 PM]

I sit in an interview panel before. And the reason is because I’m Singaporean.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:06 PM]

This is for financial industry. I’m not sure about other industries.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:08 PM]

The key to improving employability is skill upgrade. This is something that gov can do.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:08 PM]

Company will employ based on skill.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:10 PM]

All works are disrupted by advances in technology. Everyone must upgrade.

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:11 PM]

Well we keep upgrading our skills  and improving. I am probably much more skilled than labourers of decades ago. Guess who can buy a house with their wage

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:13 PM]

Its not just difficulty in getting job, but a lot of dissatisfaction comes from even an average jobs being insufficent for our standards which we arent asking for much

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:14 PM]

So lets upskill. I can be ai assisted and make 10x more products than my coworker who didn't

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:14 PM]

Will i get 10x more pay?

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:15 PM]

Will my coworker be fired?

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:15 PM]

What if both me and my coworker upskill and the employer dont need more workers?

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:15 PM]

Even then, will i get paid more?

Adam, [28/8/2024 3:16 PM]

Accounting for inflation of course

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:17 PM]

I dont believe advances in tech will replace workers. We will become more productive and justify higher salary.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:17 PM]

The difference is the kind of works that are available.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:18 PM]

Just look at the crane operator that operates from a control room instead of high up on a tower.

G, [28/8/2024 3:18 PM]

People who upskill and enter the workforce with their newly acquired skills. How many of them are entering at entry level jobs and how many of them at more senior roles?

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 3:18 PM]

The problem is our upskill can last relevant in the market and how long

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:19 PM]

upskilling is the only constant

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:20 PM]

There is no such thing as stop upskilling

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:21 PM]

When I moved to a new industry and started a new skill, my salary dropped by 30%.

G, [28/8/2024 3:22 PM]

Yes we hear motherhood statements like this all the time. How does this translate to the person going through this?

We only ever hear feel good stories. For every feel good "success" story of upskills, how many non-feel good stories of upskilling are there?

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:22 PM]

Getting into a new area is never easy

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:22 PM]

I went through this before

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:23 PM]

Your salary will not be like your previous one. But it's not exactly new grad salary.

G, [28/8/2024 3:24 PM]

Not sure. Nowadays new grads earn quite a lot

G, [28/8/2024 3:25 PM]

https://blog.seedly.sg/graduate-starting-salary-nus-ntu-smu-sutd-sit/

And if the grad works for some govt bodies (MINDEF / MHA types), they typically earn more

Jun Ming, [28/8/2024 3:27 PM]

The thing is would you upskill vertically or horizontally?

Vertically like going into master and PhD. Sharpen your skills you already have 

Horizontal get into other fields as a newbie. Getting new skills.

Hanny, [28/8/2024 3:38 PM]

I was in a sunset industry when I moved to another industry.

Nicholas, [28/8/2024 3:44 PM]

The eligibility criteria seems quite restrictive, could this be due to a limited budget to cater for this? The lower income group seems to receive a continuous stream of government assistance, whereas middle and higher income groups are left out. Does this encourage the lower income group to remain where they are?

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 4:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 5:01 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you satisfied with the Job Seeker Support Scheme? ]

- I am satisfied. The scheme sufficiently supports job seekers as they seek re-employment.

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views below).

- I am dissatisfied. I feel a lot more can be done (please share your views below).

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 5:01 PM]

[ Poll : 2. How else can job seekers be supported? ]

- Improved career coaching/ job matching services

- Greater support for upskilling/ reskilling

- Increased financial support

- Others (please share your views below)

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 6:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

John Yong, [28/8/2024 6:59 PM]

Just to add that with the criterion for less than $5k, most PMEs are left out.

REACH Singapore, [28/8/2024 6:59 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

====

*Closing the loop of the previous topic - Redundancy Temporary Grant for $5,000 and below*

1. By taking this policy in isolation, notably 2 big groups fall off the crack :-

a. Mid career workers >$5,000

b. PME >$5,000

2. If these groups lose their jobs, they and their family members will equally in distress as the month after next, their income will be $0 - and yet their bills and expenses and housing loans will keep piling up.

3. Taking the policy in isolation, these 2 groups will be suffering - as they won't benefit a single cent from the policy to put food on the table for 6 months.

4. However, by looking at the breadth and depth of all the MOM policies in totality - these 2 groups could be covered in another policy, specifically the "SkillsFuture Level Up programme".

5. The SkillsFuture Level-Up Programme is available to all Singaporeans aged 40 and above, with *no income criteria to qualify* ¹. The programme offers a $4,000 SkillsFuture Credit (Mid-Career) top-up, which can be used to defray out-of-pocket fees for selected courses that have better employability outcomes ². Additionally, mid-career Singaporeans can qualify for mid-career enhanced subsidies when taking another publicly-funded full-time diploma from AY2025, even if they had previously received MOE subsidy or government sponsorship for a diploma or higher qualification ².

6. However, the SkillsFuture Mid-Career Training Allowance, which is part of the programme, is based on 50% of one’s average income over the latest available 12-month period, capped at $3,000 a month, for up to 24 months over an individual’s lifetime ³.

7. Hence for worker's with $5,001 salary, the worker will receive *$2,500.50 cents* every month up to 2 years to put food on the table.

(This will be a more superior programme compare to the Retrenchment Temporary Grant of $6,000 - to be dispense from $1,500, $1,250, $1,000, $750 .... for 6 months).

8.The catch is, this programme caters to mid-career Singaporeans aged 40 years and above.

9. This means 30 years old to 39 years old with salary >$5,000 will not be entitled to the Skillsfuture Level Up Programme.

This is the PME group that fall off the cracks from both "Retrenchment Temporary Grant* and "SkillsFuture Level-Up Programme*.

起心动念 造宇宙。

26 Aug 2024

"Experiments Prepare to Test Whether Consciousness Arises from Quantum Weirdness"

 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experiments-prepare-to-test-whether-consciousness-arises-from-quantum/#:~:text=5%20MIN%20READ-,Experiments%20Prepare%20to%20Test%20Whether%20Consciousness%20Arises%20from%20Quantum%20Weirdness,-Researchers%20wish%20to

Researchers wish to probe whether consciousness has a basis in quantum mechanical phenomena.

=====

Researchers are planning experiments to test if consciousness arises from quantum weirdness, exploring if quantum mechanics plays a role in consciousness ¹. They're proposing three experiments:

- Testing xenon's anesthetic effects: The first experiment, already underway, aims to detect different xenon isotopes in fruit flies and cerebral organoids ¹.

- Coupling qubits to brain organoids: The second experiment will attempt to entangle qubits with brain organoids ¹.

- Enhancing consciousness with quantum states: The third, still conceptual, experiment aims to expand consciousness by coupling engineered quantum states to a human brain ¹.

These experiments could potentially revolutionize our understanding of consciousness and its connection to quantum mechanics! ¹

====

If this experiment confirms the hypothesis, it prove Buddhism teachings is the Universal Truth.

====

That's a fascinating connection! If the experiment confirms that consciousness arises from quantum mechanical phenomena, it could be seen as supporting certain aspects of Buddhist teachings. Here are some potential parallels:

1. Non-dualism: Buddhism teaches that the separation between subject and object is an illusion. Quantum mechanics also suggests a non-dualistic reality, where particles can be entangled and connected.

2. Interconnectedness: Buddhism emphasizes the interconnectedness of all phenomena. Quantum mechanics demonstrates how particles can be connected and instantaneously affect each other, regardless of distance.

3. Consciousness as fundamental: Some Buddhist schools consider consciousness to be the fundamental nature of reality. The experiment's findings could support this idea, suggesting that consciousness is not solely a product of the brain but a quantum mechanical aspect of the universe.

4. The role of observation: In Buddhism, the observer and the observed are not separate. Quantum mechanics also shows that observation can influence the behavior of particles, blurring the line between subject and object.

While the experiment's results might resonate with Buddhist teachings, it's essential to note that Buddhism is a rich and complex philosophy that cannot be reduced to a single scientific experiment. The connections between the two are intriguing, but further exploration and interpretation would be necessary to fully understand the implications.

====

REACH (Telegram) 17 - What are your views on the current responses by the Ministry of Health in managing the mpox outbreak? How else could Singapore better protect against the spread of mpox?

(SK)

26 Aug 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 9:46 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 10:06 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

Starting Friday (Aug 23), the Ministry of Health (MOH) has enhanced its surveillance against mpox by implementing temperature and visual screening at air and sea checkpoints for certain inbound passengers and crew from affected areas. Health advisories at air checkpoints also encourage travelers to take precautions against infection.

💬 What are your views on the current responses by the Ministry of Health in managing the mpox outbreak? How else could Singapore better protect against the spread of mpox?

Thirteen confirmed cases of mpox have been detected in Singapore this year, all of which are of the less severe Clade 2 variant. In August, the WHO declared mpox a global public health emergency for the second time in two years, following an outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo that extended to neighboring countries.

MOH stated that it is closely monitoring the global situation.

 📌 What is mpox and how does it spread

Mpox is a viral disease that is caused by two distinct clades of the monkeypox virus (MPXV), known as Clade I and II.

Prior to 2022, mpox were primarily reported in parts of Central (Clade I) and West Africa (Clade II) where it is endemic. Almost all mpox cases occurring outside of Africa were linked to international travel to endemic regions or through imported animals.

Mpox can spread through physical contact with infected individuals, skin lesions and body fluids, contaminated materials and environments, or exposure to respiratory secretions. The virus can also spread from animals to humans, e.g. through bite or scratch from an infected animal, bush meat preparation, or direct contact with the blood, body fluids, or skin or mucosal lesions of infected animals.

📌 Precautionary Measures and Vaccination Strategy

All travelers must report any mpox-related symptoms, such as fever or rash, as well as their recent travel history through the SG Arrival Card. Medical practitioners are also required to notify the Ministry of Health of any suspected mpox cases. Suspected cases will be isolated in hospitals for further assessment and testing. 

The Ministry of Health stated that its current vaccination strategy is focused on individuals at high risk of infection, such as those who have been in close contact with mpox cases. The ministry is closely monitoring the situation and will adjust its vaccination strategy as needed. At this time, a population-wide mpox vaccination is not recommended based on the current epidemiological data.

📌 Advisories to prevent the spread of mpox

Travelers, particularly those visiting countries affected by mpox, are advised to take precautions such as maintaining a high standard of personal hygiene and avoiding direct contact with skin lesions of infected individuals or animals.  

If symptoms such as fever or rash develop within 21 days of returning from an affected country, immediate medical attention should be sought. Travelers should inform their doctors of their recent travel and exposure history.  

The Ministry of Health emphasized that practicing personal responsibility, especially when symptomatic, along with good personal hygiene, remains effective in reducing the risk of mpox transmission within the general population.

👉 https://str.sg/AoAX

👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/mpox-cases-moh-precautionary-measures-changi-seletar-airport-vaccination-clade-2-severe-4561756

👉https://www.moh.gov.sg/diseases-updates/mpox

----

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 10:59 AM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you concerned about the current mpox situation? ]

- Yes, because there has been a few cases in Singapore

- No, because the situation is mild and measures have been taken appropriately

- Neutral

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you currently satisfied with the current measures to manage the spread of the new mpox strain? ]

- I am satisfied. The current measures take a balanced approach towards the situation.

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

- No, I feel a lot more can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 11:02 AM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls 📊and share your opinion 💭. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan

LCL (Danny 心), [26/8/2024 11:50 AM]

1. Screening of symptoms, signs of lesions etc upon entry will be a good measure.

2. Isolation and quarantine is necessary to prevent spread to the general population.

3. However contact tracing will also be important to ensure close contacts are not infected.

4. If infected, close contacts should also be quarantine.

LCL (Danny 心), [26/8/2024 11:53 AM]

1. But understand that although lesions can dry up and drop off after 1 month, body fluid are still contagious up to 3 months or more.

2. Unlike covid is not contagious after 10 days or 2 weeks.

3. Not sure how to keep mpox patients recover and not infecting the general population.

4. Keeping mpox patients away for 3 months are nightmares to the patient.

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 1:01 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you concerned about the current mpox situation? ]

- Yes, because there has been a few cases in Singapore

- No, because the situation is mild and measures have been taken appropriately

- Neutral

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 1:03 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you currently satisfied with the current measures to manage the spread of the new mpox strain? ]

- I am satisfied. The current measures take a balanced approach towards the situation.

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

- No, I feel a lot more can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

Jun Ming, [26/8/2024 1:26 PM]

I assume the infectivity will be same as hiv

Jun Ming, [26/8/2024 1:26 PM]

So nothing to worry about

xXx.SCAR.xXx, [26/8/2024 1:45 PM]

Supposed to be similar to chicken pox, 'coz spread is via contact or infected surface.

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 2:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [26/8/2024 2:10 PM]

1. I think mpox is more contagious than HIV.

2. HIV is contracted through sexual conduct.

But mpox in addition to sexual conduct, can also be contracted through lesion fluid, and body fluid via touch or contaminated surfaces.

3. Clade 1b can even be contracted through direct sneezing or saliva via direct coughing in close proximity.

4. However mpox is less contagious than covid that is transmissible through air and contaminated surfaces.

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 3:01 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you concerned about the current mpox situation? ]

- Yes, because there has been a few cases in Singapore

- No, because the situation is mild and measures have been taken appropriately

- Neutral

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 3:03 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you currently satisfied with the current measures to manage the spread of the new mpox strain? ]

- I am satisfied. The current measures take a balanced approach towards the situation.

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

- No, I feel a lot more can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

G, [26/8/2024 4:00 PM]

Monkeypox has been politicised to now use "politically correct" language and context so as not to offend certain groups (LGBT "activists")

Statistically, people infected monkeypox are gay men, and appears to be overwhelmingly transmitted via gay sex 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9264731/

Why isn't the health advisories more targeted to the most vulnerable group? Is it because MOH need to appear to be more "politically correct" than anything else?

G, [26/8/2024 4:03 PM]

The greater concern is that public health in general has gone woke

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 4:04 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [26/8/2024 4:28 PM]

Symptoms of mpox

Based on currently available data, individuals who are at higher risk of severe illness include young children, pregnant women or immunocompromised individuals.

Source:- Google

LCL (Danny 心), [26/8/2024 4:30 PM]

Mpox Cases by Age and Gender, Race/Ethnicity, and Symptoms | Mpox | Poxvirus | CDC

https://www.cdc.gov/poxvirus/mpox/response/2022/demographics.html

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 5:00 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you concerned about the current mpox situation? ]

- Yes, because there has been a few cases in Singapore

- No, because the situation is mild and measures have been taken appropriately

- Neutral

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 5:03 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you currently satisfied with the current measures to manage the spread of the new mpox strain? ]

- I am satisfied. The current measures take a balanced approach towards the situation.

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

- No, I feel a lot more can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 5:04 PM]

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 5:04 PM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls 📊and share your opinion 💭. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 6:03 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [26/8/2024 6:59 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

===

REACH (Telegram) 16 - What are your thoughts on granting the police additional powers to restrict scam victims’ banking transactions? How else can we better tackle the rise of scam cases in Singapore?

(SK)

23 Aug 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 9:46 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 10:02 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

With the number of scam cases and amount lost in the first half of 2024 hitting record highs, the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) is studying measures to give the police more powers to restrict scam victims’ banking transactions.

💬 What are your thoughts on granting the police additional powers to restrict scam victims’ banking transactions? How else can we better tackle the rise of scam cases in Singapore?

A mid-year scam and cybercrime statistics released by the police on 22 August showed that the scam situation here has worsened. The number of scam cases in the first half of 2024 increased by 16.3 per cent to 26,587, from the 22,853 cases during the same period in 2023.

📌 Considering additional powers for the police

The additional powers being considered for the police will involve a restriction on banking transactions when the authorities believe the victims will transfer money to scammers.

The police said the restriction will be time-limited. This means bank accounts will be frozen temporarily, so officers can convince victims they are being scammed, and investigate who they are transferring the money to.

MHA intends to conduct public consultations on the proposal, with more details expected to be released in the coming months.

📌 Banks customers have been using money lock features

The police revealed that as at July 31, more than 114,000 customers have used the Money Lock function, with over $9 billion of savings now set aside.

The feature is offered by the seven major retail banks – DBS Bank, OCBC Bank, UOB, Maybank, Standard Chartered, Citibank and HSBC.

It allows users to “lock up” a specified portion of their funds, which cannot be touched via digital transactions. The locked money can only be withdrawn or transferred in person at an ATM or at a branch, depending on the bank.

“Money Lock accounts will be protected from phishing scams. For scams that involve customers authorising the transfer, Money Lock adds substantial friction,” a spokesman from the Money Authority of Singapore (MAS) said.

👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/mha-mulls-allowing-police-to-restrict-victims-banking-transactions-to-tackle-scams

----

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 10:41 AM]

Good initiative

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 10:42 AM]

But how about if the victim needs to buy items from online platform

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 10:43 AM]

And usage of paylah on hawker

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 10:44 AM]

Will it restrict card transaction when buying things

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 10:52 AM]

Such as Lazada and shopee

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : 1. Do you support MHA’s proposal to grant the police more powers to restrict scam victims’ banking transactions? ]

- Supportive

- Not Supportive (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 11:02 AM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you satisfied with the current measures to tackle scam cases in Singapore? ]

- I am satisfied. There are sufficient measures

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

- No, alot more can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

Caleb, [23/8/2024 11:05 AM]

Can send to all via gov.sg whatsapp and telegram like how it was communicating during covid?

Send in all 4 languages. Especially the elderly who don't  understand  english.

Adam, [23/8/2024 11:52 AM]

One annoying thing about banks is that they dunno the difference between authorised transactions and unauthorised when i use my card

Adam, [23/8/2024 11:52 AM]

A lot of time i wanna make purchase, cannot. I also dun get notif

Adam, [23/8/2024 11:54 AM]

One time, i messed up and put wrong ccv number when making purchase. Somehow the purchase still went through

Nicholas, [23/8/2024 11:59 AM]

Good progress, always wondered why the police seem so powerless when it comes to scams. Should give them further powers to identify and take down scammer's systems.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 12:17 PM]

Should also give them power to freeze passports

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 12:18 PM]

Once scammers see bank freeze ok let's get out of the country

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 12:19 PM]

Since they already transferred out the money

G, [23/8/2024 12:20 PM]

The part about how such powers cannot be abused is entirely missing

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 1:02 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Do you support MHA’s proposal to grant the police more powers to restrict scam victims’ banking transactions? ]

- Supportive

- Not Supportive (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 1:02 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you satisfied with the current measures to tackle scam cases in Singapore? ]

- I am satisfied. There are sufficient measures

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

- No, alot more can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 1:02 PM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls and share your opinion. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan 😊

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:02 PM]

In terms of scam actually more could be done. For example tracing the money from banks to banks and try to recover it and not oh money cannot recover back

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:03 PM]

And be swift and effective to interview people by the next working day instead of after 1 month

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:04 PM]

Where scammer continues to trick people into believing them

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:05 PM]

By the time too late

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:06 PM]

Once arrested immediately charge them. Not wait for evidence to be fat lol where more victims suffer

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 1:22 PM]

*Progress on Digital measures against online scam*

1. Analysing the current scam trends from the news articles, the Government has done well in closing the loops from the digital technical angles notably:-

a. Anti-malware measures adopted by the various banks working with MAS and other IT & MHA Authorities - have eliminated the scammers from installing malware or unintentional download of malware via APK files into the smartphone.

Such anti-malware measures are able to detect APK files, other dangerous permissions or rights granted to scammers like split-screen, remote control etc.

I think Googles also work actively with our Government to pre-empt and stop suspected malware download.

b. Moneylock features adopted not only by local banks eg. OCBC, DBS and UOB but also offshore banks like Maybank, SCB, HSBC among others

c. SingPass can deactivate access by overseas IP address. Currently, this feature is optional.

I suggest SingPass should deactivate foreign IP address by default. Legitimate users who need to access from overseas IP address should activate it when need to use and then deactivate it when back to Singapore.

d. People should get local Telcos to bar overseas from making calls and send SMS to residents who stay in Singapore.

Overseas contact can communicate with us using WhatsApp, Telegram, email or video conferencing.

And any financial transactions via such channels --- will be a big Alarm Bell.

f. Reducing CPF withdrawal limit to $2,000 a day and users can set it to 0 (whereby users need to go to CPF branch to withdraw) at 55 years old.

Further limiting maximum withdrawal from $200,000 to $50,000 a day will reduce more money from being scam.

e.Previously, I have discussed in REACH WhatsApp about rearchitecting OOB (Out-Of-Band) National Intranet network to perform financial transactions - as Internet scamming and hacking are rampant.

But notice that such drastic measures can be halted and put on hold - as the above current technical digital measures has dramatically reduce the scammers from directly and remotely accessing victims smartphones or other devices to steal their bank credentials and money.

Most scams are conducted through social engineering - whereby scammers trick victims to transfer money out on their own - as scammers are unable to access victim's smartphone to steal their money.

g. Of course the advanced biometric authentication (with anti-spoofing on biometric) enhanced by AI will be the future way to go - if foolproof. Not sure about the R&D progress locally and worldwide.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:26 PM]

Agree that most scam is social engineering. I think the most common ones is 

a)e-commerce scam 

b) butchering scam 

3) love scam

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:27 PM]

Where scammers social engineer deep into victim

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:27 PM]

Very 缺德

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 1:29 PM]

As the Chinese saying says 只有做贼千日没有防贼千日。

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 1:44 PM]

*Scams through Social Engineering*

1. As reported by the news, with effective measures and tightening from the digital front by our Government working with the banks, telcos and social media platform, scammers are less successful in remotely stealing from the victims smartphones or other devices.

2. Now focusing on social media and communication platforms e.g WhatsApp, Telegram, META Facebook, Carousell etc will be the next stage in the fight against scams.

- This includes working with social media platform and telcos to take down scam phishing sites, advertisement, scammer accounts, terminate local telephone sim etc --- when suspected scams are discovered.

3. Identifying the current types of scam will make us more effective in tackling the scams :-

- phishing scam

- investment scam

- job scam

- love scam

- impersonating government official

4. All these need to involve social engineering. Many victims fall into it unintentionally out of curiousity, out of ignorance, out of needs, out of greeds, out of fear, out of boredom or loneliness --- mainly psychological and cognitive pitfalls.

Eg. Phishing scams - victims out of ignorance or curiousity clicking on bait links send through email, WhatsApp, Telegrams or bait websites.

Or fill up bank credentials to claim winning monies - out of greed.

Eg. Investment scams - victims trick into "too good to be true" ROI on investment - out of greed.

Eg. Job scams - victims fall into easy online jobs and good pay with little efforts - too good to be true - out of ignorance and out of needs to find jobs and income.

Eg. Love scams - victims out-of loneliness fall into "sugar" baits.

Eg. Government official impersonation - out of fear and ignorance that they have committed unintentional crimes and getting help in assistance to avoid prosecution.

All these involve social engineering --- whereby the scammers are skilled psychologists that can prey on victim's cognitive and psychological pitfalls.

5. Hence focusing on tackling social engineering to prevent people from falling into such traps become the next step to tackle scams.

a. Education is important to highlight such scams - so that population are informed of the scam tactics employ by scammers.

b. Always be alert when received messages, text, phone calls, video conferencing from strangers.

Reject should be a default.

6. I fully support MHA effort to temporary freeze the bank accounts of victims - if suspected that a scam is taking place - to prevent scammers from stealing the life savings of ignorant victims that fall into the bait of the scammers.

If additional powers are required, I will like to hear about it, and if effective, I will be supportive.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 1:56 PM]

1. Also I noticed the ScamShield revamp has been quite dramatic with many features

2. It show quite a good potential and more focus in identifying and filtering suspected scams based on different platforms.

3. Initially, not easy to used - and need some times to get used to.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 1:59 PM]

Victims critical thinking and mental strengths very important to identify whether the person they are dealing with are authentic or is a scammer.

Basic instinct is a good feel.

And need to critically assess every step a victim take, is it helping him/her or harming him/her.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:00 PM]

Never rush into it especially when dealing with strangers.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:07 PM]

When stranger approach you yes a lot people use critical thinking but when you approach stranger often people let down their guard

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:08 PM]

Another saying predators may appear like a prey to you

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:08 PM]

Normally in social media, I don't approach strangers especially foreigners.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:08 PM]

Very common in dating website/app

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:08 PM]

Avoid such sites.

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 2:09 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:09 PM]

Last time I got scammed a few times when using dating sites

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:10 PM]

Most are up to no good.

Must as well join social activities to meet prospect is better.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:10 PM]

As a young and naive guy it's easy to believe what is being told to you while searching for love

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:11 PM]

Hmm...

That's why critical thinking very important.

See physical - believe.

Virtual - be careful.

Most social media are not real.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:12 PM]

Nah even you have seen her physically also can scam you

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:13 PM]

Even after making police report they also can social engineer you to not pursue the case

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:13 PM]

Well need to understand her for some time to find out.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:14 PM]

Too many such cases online.

Most are foreigners.

Very tough to pursue.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:14 PM]

Local also have a lot

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:14 PM]

Just read reports on how many got arrested you will know

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:15 PM]

I think police resources are very tight unless the case is very blatant.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:15 PM]

But arrested does not mean charge

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:15 PM]

Also evidence may not be strong to prosecute.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:16 PM]

Don't know.

I think they will look at the merit of every case.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:16 PM]

So they can try to avoid getting prosecute by social engineer victims not to pursue and dropped the case

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:17 PM]

This is why I feel that police force should expand their forces

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:17 PM]

Hmm...

Not sure.

I cannot comment because I don't have such experience.

Normally I very careful in dealing with people.

Especially online.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:18 PM]

If they are foreign based they can fled the country and hard to trace them back or find evidence for interpol

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:18 PM]

Human resources limited.

You previously mentioned want to shrink population.

Now you see a country cannot function without sufficient manpower.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:19 PM]

Yes.

Not easy.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:20 PM]

Yup to shrink population but expand more of police force. As I find our population is too much foreigners where they cannot be on this line

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:20 PM]

Or not convincing to be in this line

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:21 PM]

Now you only see 1 small part.

As more topic come out, you will notice you will want more manpower in other sectors.

Must be able to see big picture.

Cannot be microscopic.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:22 PM]

Everywhere needs manpower but... you see manpower on govt job such as national service cannot rely on foreigners. You need our own local born Singaporean

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:23 PM]

Which is lacking... Because too much foreigners taking up space in our country

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:23 PM]

Provided locals married and have more babies.

But our TFR keep falling.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:24 PM]

Japan, SKorea and even China face falling birth rate.

Japan and SKorea face the real possibility of race extinction going by the current trend.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:25 PM]

Yeah. Because resources cannot support such population where people thinks it's overpopulated. As you can see such countries have a very stressful lifestyle

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:26 PM]

If people don't feel stress then babyboom will happen

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:28 PM]

That is what happens during boomer generation where war just ended. People suddenly feel relax and happy so they make babies

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:28 PM]

Japan SKorea economic growth in a doldrums for decades because of falling birth rate.

Not enough workers, aging population with no younger population propping up the economy, shrinking domestic market, foreign investors not coming in because lack talents and manpower, many houses vacant as aged passed away etc.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:29 PM]

Unless foreigners can work full-time sign on in NS services if not there will be not enough manpower

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:30 PM]

Many PRs children are serving national service.

Subsequently, they become new citizens.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:31 PM]

I have a few colleagues who are under such categories.

If they don't tell me, I thought they are Singaporeans because they speak, behave and look like one of us.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:31 PM]

Loh Khean Yew is one of them.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:32 PM]

Then maybe the NS forces not attractive enough for them

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:33 PM]

They serve NS as soldiers.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:33 PM]

Like population dense why is everywhere not enough man power

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:33 PM]

What is the problem?

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:34 PM]

Because our economy very big.

Our GDP is almost the same size of Malaysia.

We 5.65 million people 

Malaysia 30 million people.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:34 PM]

Then why essential service resources are so tight due to no man power

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:35 PM]

Can our land handle so many people?

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:35 PM]

Malaysia 5 people to handle versus Singapore 1 people to produce the same output.

That's we are 5 times more productive.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:36 PM]

What you see in Singapore is what it is.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 2:36 PM]

Can increase if the land is big enough or more bigger and higher house lah. Like build a 1000 floor building maybe can lor

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:37 PM]

Hahaha..

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:40 PM]

Singapore GDP  US$501.43 billion in 2023.

Malaysia GDP US$406.3 billion in 2022.

Cannot find 2023 figures for Malaysia.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:41 PM]

Btw.

To update on the affordability of 5 room flat and flat size - last discussion conclusion is inaccurate after I have conducted a study.

Better provide the right information in case people draw a wrong conclusion.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:42 PM]

====

*To close the loop on last topic, in a married family of single income - can afford 5-room BTO flat*

5 Room flats :

Boon Lay Glade, Jurong West Jewel $338,000 to $457,000 (5-room)

Aranda Breeze @ Yishun $366,000 to $459,000 (5-room)

Canberra Vista (Sembawang) $350,000 to $406,000 (5-room)

Sun Sails (Sembawang) $336,000 to $388,000 (5-room)

Grove Spring @ Yishun $385,000 to $485,000 (5-room)

Yishun Boardwalk (Yishun) $410,000 to $490,000 (5-room)

Yishun Beacon (Yishun) $485,000 to $595,000 (5-room)

Matilda Riverside $464,000 (5-room)

Woodgrove Edge $412,000 (5-room)

Taking the high side of 5 room flats = $480,000

Minus housing grants = $50,000

Remaining price = $430,000

Take a 20 years loan at 2.6% HDB/CPF loans = $1,838.25 loan installment a month payable to CPF.

A single income graduate (after 3 years of job) = $5,000 (starting pay $4,600).

Self CPF 20% + Employer CPF 17% = $1,850

No cash outlay - single income can pay for a 5 room flat (at 50 years old flat fully paid).

If take 25 years loan (service up to 55 years old), lagi affordable $1,470.60 repayment a month.

Fully payable by CPF.

No cash layout.

(Hence single income cannot afford a 5-room flat is not a true statement.)

====

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:42 PM]

Note:-

HDB portal calculator currently under maintenance to reflect the new HDB policies and cannot be used.

If use commercial property calculator, the amount is slightly higher (less accurate - plus and minus) because it doesn't take into account the various government housing grants such as EHG vis-a-vis the corresponding household income that are unique to each household.

But the commercial property calculation is still not too far off from the above example calculations. 

(Eg. $2,000 plus per month instead of $1,838.25)

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:43 PM]

*To close the loop on the previous topic - Are HDB flats getting smaller?*

Since 1997, the sizes of HDB flats have remained unchanged, even though the average household size has declined over the years.

What is the size of an old 4-room flat?

The standard size of a 4-room HDB flat is 90 square meters (969 square feet) for new flats and 82 square meters (883 square feet) for older flats.18 Jan 2024.

Source: Google from HDB website.

HDB | Designs-continually-improved-to-better-meet-needs

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/about-us/news-and-publications/letters-to-the-media/Designs-continually-improved-to-better-meet-needs#:~:text=Since%201997%2C%20the%20sizes%20of,has%20declined%20over%20the%20years.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:43 PM]

*To address the salary of fresh graduates - 2024 fresh graduates salaries*

Art & Business graduates $3,500 (lowest)

IT graduates $7,752 (highest)

Average graduate salary $4,600 (Honour).

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:43 PM]

Graduate Employment Survey 2023 (Published 2024) | Salary.sg - Your Salary in Singapore

https://www.salary.sg/2024/graduate-employment-survey-2023-published-2024/

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:45 PM]

*Respond to why 1960s, 1970s the 5 room flat bigger than now*

1. 1960 and 1970s, Singapore is a undeveloped and under developing country.

Land is not a premium because many high value added investors are not coming in.

Now 2024, Singapore land is a premium.

People got to pay higher for each square foot of land especially in premium areas.

2. 2024 - The 5-room HDBs are the largest type of HDB flat, measuring around 110 to 130 square meters. Source :- Google.

1985 5-room flat size 120 sq metres (about 1,291 sq ft).

Surprisingly, I discover the flat size is almost the same.

3. So if a 5 room flat fetch $200,000 40 years ago, $500,000 in 2024 is not too far fetch. (2.5 times).

Because 40 years ago, 1 bowl of noodles is $1.

Now is $4. (4 times).

Hanny, [23/8/2024 2:45 PM]

Scammers are smart people. The moment you send your money, you can say the money is gone. I would suggest higher penalty for money mule. Improve public education. Make it mandatory for every MLM presentation to show a 5 min video that show how a person has been scammed. Gov agencies can come up with many videos that show the different ways a real person has been scammed.

G, [23/8/2024 2:47 PM]

Mischievously inflating the price of 5 room flats from 40 years ago? 😂

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:49 PM]

Huh?

All the examples are 2023 and 2024 5 room flat prices.

I suggest you get your facts right before commenting.

Else you will look less and less credible in the forum.

G, [23/8/2024 2:49 PM]

Using graduate salary now but fail to note that median salary is not graduate salary?

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:50 PM]

Median salary is Singapore wide.

As of 2024, the average salary in Singapore is projected to be around S$7,310 per month. For full-time employed Singapore residents, the Median Gross Monthly Income from work, including employer CPF contributions, is S$4,563.3 Aug 2024.

Source :- Google

G, [23/8/2024 2:50 PM]

U are the one who said 5 room flat prices from 40 years ago is $200,000. Not me

Get your facts right before commenting.

Else you will look less and less credible in the forum

G, [23/8/2024 2:50 PM]

Again, why use median salary? Why not use median salary of first time buyers?

G, [23/8/2024 2:51 PM]

What's the median salary of first time buyers in the 1980s?

What's the median salary of first time buyers now?

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:51 PM]

Yes I do. 

HDB got my records.

G, [23/8/2024 2:51 PM]

Yes. $200,000 for 5 room flat in the 80s is grossly inflated

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:52 PM]

Yawn...

I go drink coffee and shake legs.

G, [23/8/2024 2:53 PM]

New executive apartment going for $100+k back in the 80s. So u saying 5rm flat cost twice as much as executive apartment? 😂

Want to smoke who?

G, [23/8/2024 2:54 PM]

Yes please do and never come back and try to smoke people with false numbers

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 2:55 PM]

Oh I will come back to haunt you again when the time and topic is right.

Don't worry.

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 3:01 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Do you support MHA’s proposal to grant the police more powers to restrict scam victims’ banking transactions? ]

- Supportive

- Not Supportive (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 3:01 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you satisfied with the current measures to tackle scam cases in Singapore? ]

- I am satisfied. There are sufficient measures

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

- No, alot more can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

Hanny, [23/8/2024 3:05 PM]

Gov can come up with statistics show how many people are scammed on daily basis. Stats can also be shown based on education level, race, age, housing type.

Hanny, [23/8/2024 3:06 PM]

The purpose is to raise awareness.

Hanny, [23/8/2024 3:06 PM]

Too many people think that they will not be scammed.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:06 PM]

Yes.

This happens to many people.

Younger ones more susceptible because they tend to use digital transactions more often.

Hanny, [23/8/2024 3:07 PM]

Yet a lot of people are scammed. Young and old. Rich and poor.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:08 PM]

More young people get scam in term of numbers.

Elderly less, but when scam, is a big amount.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:11 PM]

In one town hall, the IT Minister presented the scam charts.

Young people forms the majority being scammed.

Elderly lesser, but amount very big.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:28 PM]

Only when you don't use digital things then the chance of you getting scam is low

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:31 PM]

Quite true.

But doesn't means use digital sure kenna.

Trusted organisation and trusted sources - should have no issues.

It is accessing social media, new sites, dubious sites and transactions that you don't have control over.

Always be alert and take step one by one with critical thinking.

Cannot be too trusting 

Always check and verify with trusted sources before committing.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:31 PM]

It's very easy to fall in scam nowadays as

 everyone buys things online 

Everyone using dating app is vulnerable 

Everyone money not enough ( refer to jack neo money not enough and you will understand)

G, [23/8/2024 3:32 PM]

100% of CPF contribution can be used to finance HDB loan meh? 

Since when?

$1850 need to be distributed to OA, SA and Medisave right?

Isn't HDB loan only allowed to be financed using OA? 

If below 35 years old today, your $1850 only $1150 go to OA. Still need to cough up additional $700 cash in monthly mortgage, and the CPF OA will maintain at minimum, cannot grow. 

Still want to claim no cash outlay?

Your $4000 take home become $3,300. Still need to pay S&CC, utilities, property tax, income tax...

How much take home pay is really left?

Your claims on HDB financing and claims of affordability is really mischievous

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:33 PM]

If money and relationship is fulfilled it's hard to get scammed

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:33 PM]

People who are lonely and poor in the heart are the one vulnerable.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:33 PM]

Use trusted sites eg. Shoppe, Lazada.

Dating sites and other social media that deal with E-transactions should avoid.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:34 PM]

That's why psychological, emotional and cognitive pitfalls is what scammers try to exploit.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:35 PM]

Yeah. Sometimes it's when you hear success stories about dating app which cause people go in

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:35 PM]

Then only find scammers talking to you

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:36 PM]

Join the physical social activities that are organised locally.

Make more friends physically rather than over social media.

Because social media scammers will always prey on lonely heart.

Just be careful.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:36 PM]

Can gov compile how many cases are origin in dating apps and how many cases are from different sources

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:37 PM]

Maybe it will be easier to tackle

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:37 PM]

Previously, government organised SDU, SDS for people to date and get along.

Wonder how come now stop....

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:38 PM]

And the guess who I am scam call. Really... It target on middle age people I think

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:39 PM]

Now government must focus on social engineering.

Hence removing the chances of being scam virtually is to organise more physical activities.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:39 PM]

I think middle age, young and even elderly can be scam by love scam.

G, [23/8/2024 3:40 PM]

Yes. Easy to fall for the "HDB is affordable, single income graduate can afford 5 rm flat without cash outlay today scam" when presented with false numbers.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:43 PM]

Likewise, job scam can also be avoided by organising more physical job roadshow.

Investment scam can also be avoided if investment activities are organised physically licenced by MAS.

All these will stop social engineering through online.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:45 PM]

And for impersonation by government officials, only police or government authority with badges appearing at the doorstep - then will be considered authentic.

All online police investigation over phones are by default scams.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:48 PM]

How about overseas investment

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:48 PM]

Having say so:-

Social engineering by scammers online will be eliminated if:-

1. Job - physical roadshow.

2. Love - physical dating activities.

3. Investment - physical investment presentation.

4. Government official - appear in doorstep with badges instead of online

Will have resolve the above 4 social engineering scams.

And the only 2 scams left are shopping scam and phishing scams.

Shopping scams - always go through trusted sources eg. Shoppe, Lazada, Amazon etc and not other dubious sites.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:49 PM]

Overseas investment - I don't trust.

Because money once transfer overseas will be gone.

Cannot recover back.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 3:51 PM]

So gov should organise such things which is now lack off

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:55 PM]

I think government and business and community organisations should consider this.

Else people falling into social engineering scams not far fetched.

Because there are people with psychological vulnerabilities regardless of education level.

Even universities graduates will also Kenna.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 3:58 PM]

It is not about how high the IQ is.

Alot is how high the EQ is.

Because people will fall through the cracks when a person is emotionally weaker at a particular instance and make hasty decisions without critical thinking.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 4:00 PM]

Cause there's not really cheap alternative offical source especially for investment and dating

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 4:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 4:02 PM]

Oh investment seminar are free.

Sometimes organise by banks and financial institutions.

Sometimes there are good investment products in their official websites.

It can be trusted.

Dating activities are missing.

Maybe government should look into it.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 4:03 PM]

Yeah say want to increase fertility rate but never help Singaporean find love

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 4:03 PM]

Like that cannot lah

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 4:04 PM]

Hahaha...

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 4:05 PM]

For example, I usually browse the web for good investment but never make any transaction online.

I will go physically to the banks, insurance companies or financial institutions to talk to the officers there to do investment.

Only when such physical links are established, then can do online with official sources.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 4:36 PM]

Gov should put example of good practice instead just tell you what to avoid

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 4:38 PM]

But having say that it is a good initiative that police have more power to freeze victims bank account does that mean more victim may hesitate to report to police?

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 4:40 PM]

As from victim perspective they may not really know if it is a scam or sitting on the fence if it is a scam

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 4:42 PM]

Anti-scam unit with police and bank representatives sit side by side.

AI or human eyeballs will pick up suspicious bank transactions especially coming from or transferring to overseas.

They will be flagged up immediately especially involving individuals not business I think.

Jun Ming, [23/8/2024 4:43 PM]

Because not all scam is spotted by bank and police mah. Some is self report to police and at the same time unsure if it is a scam

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 4:43 PM]

Ah.

That's true.

Especially small amount.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 4:44 PM]

But last time even very small amount involving few hundred dollars also got pick up.

Because the victim is one of the hundreds of victims. She transfer money to the scammer account.

And the account was temporarily freeze.

LCL (Danny 心), [23/8/2024 4:54 PM]

Btw I just noticed in the scamshield new feature, there is an e-report.

Whereby a person can make a police report online if kenna scam.

Then the police can establish and correlate a scam trend.

If come from same scammers, police will zero in.

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 5:02 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Do you support MHA’s proposal to grant the police more powers to restrict scam victims’ banking transactions? ]

- Supportive

- Not Supportive (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 5:03 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you satisfied with the current measures to tackle scam cases in Singapore? ]

- I am satisfied. There are sufficient measures

- I am somewhat satisfied. More can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

- No, alot more can be done (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 5:05 PM]

Dear Contributors, 

Do also share your opinion by participating in our polls! The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous. 😊

Megan

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 6:46 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [23/8/2024 6:59 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

====

REACH (Telegram) 15 - What are your views on the reduction in the loan-to-value (LTV) limit for HDB loans and the enhanced CPF Housing Grant? Are you sufficiently assured that such measures will help public housing remain affordable and accessible for Singaporeans?

(SK)

21 Aug 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 9:45 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 10:01 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

On August 20, Minister for National Development Mr Desmond Lee said the move to tighten the maximum loan that home buyers can take from the Housing and Development Board (HDB) was meant to encourage prudent borrowing and dampen demand at the higher end of the HDB resale market.

💬 What are your views on the reduction in the loan-to-value (LTV) limit for HDB loans and the enhanced CPF Housing Grant? Are you sufficiently assured that such measures will help public housing remain affordable and accessible for Singaporeans?

📌 Loan-to-value (LTV) Limit Reduction

As of 20 August, the maximum loan-to-value (LTV) limit for HDB loans will be lowered to 75 per cent, meaning buyers will be able to borrow up to 75 percent of the flat's value, down from the previous 80 percent.

The adjustment brings the HDB loan limit in line with mortgages offered by financial institutions, which also cap loans at 75% of the property's value.

📌 Enhanced CPF Housing Grant (EHG) Increase

Starting from 20 August, eligible families can receive up to $120,000 (up from $80,000), and singles can receive up to $60,000 (up from $40,000) for their first new or resale flat purchase. 

This increase aims to make homeownership more accessible for lower-income groups, especially with the upcoming classification of Prime, Plus, and Standard BTO flats.

Minister Lee highlighted that about 85% of first-time buyers, or over 13,000 households annually, are expected to benefit from this enhanced support.

📌 Market Perception and Affordability Concerns

Minister Lee noted that million-dollar flats, which make up about 2% of resale transactions, were mostly larger units in prime locations, while high-priced smaller flats were typically centrally located with excellent amenities. 

Despite their low percentage, these transactions have sparked concerns about overall affordability, leading to increased price expectations among sellers and anxiety among buyers. He said that if not careful, such market dynamics can cause the resale market to run ahead of economic fundamentals and “cause a bubble”.

Minister Lee also said that the changes are meant to encourage buyers to be prudent in their flat purchase in an unpredictable economic climate.

👉[ST]https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/vast-majority-of-hdb-buyers-not-affected-by-tighter-loan-to-value-limit-desmond-lee 

👉[CNA]https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/hdb-loan-value-limit-cooling-measure-borrowing-market-demand-4556096 

👉[CNA]https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/hdb-property-cooling-first-time-buyers-cpf-housing-grant-loan-value-limit-lowered-4554726

----

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 11:01 AM]

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 11:01 AM]

Dear Contributors,

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your views on the reduction in the loan-to-value (LTV) limit for HDB loans and the enhanced CPF Housing Grant? Are you sufficiently assured that such measures will help public housing remain affordable and accessible for Singaporeans?

We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Thank you.

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 11:04 AM]

[ Poll : 1. How do you feel about the recent reduction in the loan-to-value (LTV) limit for HDB loans from 80% to 75%? ]

- Supportive

- Not Supportive (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 11:07 AM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you satisfied with the increase in Enhanced CPF Housing Grant (EHG) for first-time buyers? ]

- Yes

- No (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 11:09 AM]

[ Poll : 3. What other concerns do you have regarding the current HDB resale market? ]

- Rising prices and affordability

- Potential Market Bubble

- Nil, I am confident in the cooling measures implemented

- Others (please share your views in the chats below)

Hanny, [21/8/2024 11:46 AM]

I hope gov made the decision based on the data it has.

I mean gov ha looked at the buyers profile before deciding that new limit would be effective.

G, [21/8/2024 11:57 AM]

With the rules easing for singles to buy BTOs, how do these address the increased demand?

How has HDB used immigration numbers to forecast demand to ensure bubbles are not created?

A typical single income family could comfortably afford a typical 4 room HDB flat without requiring grants and/or 30 year mortgages in the 1980s. What steps are HDB doing to bring HDB flat affordability back to what it was in the 1980s?

Hanny, [21/8/2024 12:00 PM]

I have not checked DOS website yet. I believe there is a statistic on affordability. This is usually tied to income.

G, [21/8/2024 12:03 PM]

This income statistic, does it reveal whether it's a single or multi income household?

Hanny, [21/8/2024 12:12 PM]

Income should be by household.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 12:17 PM]

Single or multi income is a choice made by every family. Every family has its own priorities. There are pro n con for every decision. No right or wrong. So, stats by household should be the most reasonable.

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 1:02 PM]

[ Poll : 1. How do you feel about the recent reduction in the loan-to-value (LTV) limit for HDB loans from 80% to 75%? ]

- Supportive

- Not Supportive (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 1:02 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you satisfied with the increase in Enhanced CPF Housing Grant (EHG) for first-time buyers? ]

- Yes

- No (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 1:03 PM]

[ Poll : 3. What other concerns do you have regarding the current HDB resale market? ]

- Rising prices and affordability

- Potential Market Bubble

- Nil, I am confident in the cooling measures implemented

- Others (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 1:03 PM]

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 1:03 PM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls 📊and share your opinion 💭. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan

Nicholas, [21/8/2024 1:11 PM]

On the one hand there's a lower LTV cooling measure, while on the other hand there are higher grants and HDBs in more desirable locations. The measures seem to work against each other since one side lowers prices while the other side increases prices.

Dr. Goh, [21/8/2024 2:31 PM]

I've always been consistent on this topic - you want HDB prices to match salaries and cost of living so people don't struggle so much. In 2011 the prices were insane. After that despite having own place I still advocate for prices to drop. Now same, prices cannot be too high otherwise you end up with a whole generation of beggars after retirement.

Gahmen already gave so many good jobs to enclaves, all the more it should keep prices reasonable, to the extent that even stint workers can afford HDB 4 room, otherwise all the local born grab drivers will suffer. Is gahmen going to pay for all the expenses as a result of enclave based discriminatory hiring? The numbers will be telling that's why MOM refused to share.

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 3:00 PM]

[ Poll : 1. How do you feel about the recent reduction in the loan-to-value (LTV) limit for HDB loans from 80% to 75%? ]

- Supportive

- Not Supportive (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 3:00 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you satisfied with the increase in Enhanced CPF Housing Grant (EHG) for first-time buyers? ]

- Yes

- No (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 3:01 PM]

[ Poll : 3. What other concerns do you have regarding the current HDB resale market? ]

- Rising prices and affordability

- Potential Market Bubble

- Nil, I am confident in the cooling measures implemented

- Others (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 3:01 PM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls 📊and share your opinion 💭. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:01 PM]

*Tampering million dollar flat (or ensuring HDB flats affordability)*

1. To curb rising HDB flat prices running above 1 million, and fuelling other HDB flat price to rise in tandem, a simple economic solution will be able to handle it.

---

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:01 PM]

*Application of Economic principle of Demand and Supply*

1. Prices are determine by Demand and Supply.

This is best illustrated by a simple economic chart.

Price is the y-coordinate.

Output is the x-coordinate.

Supply curve is drawn from bottom left to top right.

Demand curve is drawn from top left to bottom right.

Supply curve and Demand curve intersect - and will determine the Price of the HDB flats.

2. 2 ways to reduce HDB flat price :-

a. Shift demand curve from top right to bottom left (ie.. reduce demand) - HDB price fall.

b. Shift supply curve from left to the right (ie. increase supply) - HDB price fall.

3. A closer look at the new Government housing policy is an attempt to apply this economic principle to dampen the runaway HDB resale prices while ensuring affordability of new BTO flats to 1st time HDB flat owners to help the lower and middle income group to own a HDB flat.

----

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:02 PM]

*New HDB flat policies to tackle rising price while ensuring affordability*

1. Notice that those million dollars flats are mainly big flats eg. 3-gen flats, masionette, DBSS flat or 5-room flats.

No matter how high the household income is per month, the household will still need to borrow loans either from HDB/CPF or from banks.

Many are not possible to pay say $250,000 (25% of $1 million) cash upfront for a resale flat.

Hence reducing LTV (loan-to-value) from 80% to 75% - that means buyers abilities or willingness to fork out $250,000 upfront instead of $200,000 will be reduced.

This will make lesser buyers to want to pay $1 million flats - as buyers are unable to borrow more loans to pay for the flats dampening demand.

This is an attempt to manipulate with the Demand side of the Demand-Supply curve.

This dampen the Demand side of the Demand-Supply curve - shifting demand curve from top right to bottom left (ie.. reduce demand) - HDB price fall.

2. At the same time, HDB are ramping up higher supply of HDB flats.

This is an attempt to manipulate with the Supply side of the Demand-Supply curve.

This will be shifting the supply curve from left to the right (ie. increase supply) - HDB price fall.

3. However, the Government noted that overall, the prices of the HDB flats are creeping up as the land price premium go up, inflation go up and the positive economic conditions go up.

This means 1st time HDB flats owners will be facing difficulties to own a flat for marriage and raise a family.

Hence, increasing housing grants to make HDB flats affordable will be a good move to ensure 1st HDB flats owners can own a flat to raise a family and bear babies.

4. Noted that housing grants help HDB owners to be able to afford owning houses, but not a profit for HDB owners.

If HDB owners eventually sell the flats after MOP, the housing grants will need to be given back to the Government.

(But having say so, thinking aloud..... Government fiscal budget pocket are pretty deep.......  as Government are able to finance many initiatives to help the people e.g, increasing housing grants, retrenchment temporary support grants, GST and CDC vouchers........ Hmmm)

I will be supportive of all these support grants to help the people --- as long as the Government don't dig into our reserves to finance all these support grants).

Our Sovereign Reserves must be preserve and grow to ensure our future generations are protected.

Our Reserves should only be used for emergency crisis or rainy days. And upon the crisis is over, there must be attempt to recover and ensure the Reserves will continue to grow.

Singapore has no natural reserves or resources.

The only resources we have are our people/human capital and our Sovereign Reserves (that we painfully save and build up).

Hence our Sovereign Reserves must be "Our Sacred Cow" - and must be carefully and prudently preserve, keep and grow.

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 3:20 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:28 PM]

*Is it reasonable to expect prices to remain at 1960s or 1970s - as Economy grow and progress*

1. Many man-in-the-street wonder, why can't the prices of HDB flats or food prices can't be kept at 1960s or 1970s - say $60,000 or $120,000 - can afford a 4 room or 5 room flats.

Not the current $350,000 to $500,000 flats.

2. The answer is, no Countries in the World when moving from undeveloped, underdeveloped, developing to Developed Economies --- will have a stagnant prices whereby the income rises and the economy progress butwill still have housing prices stick at 1960s or 1970s - while the population income increases.

It defy Economic logics.

(That is, it goes against nature).

(An analogy, can a human faces, bodies and organ remain to be as young and as fresh like a 10 years old, as we grow old into 50 years old?

Of course not, because it defy logic and nature).

3. Let us examine this phenonmenon why it is not possible in economic terms:-

a. Population income grow and increase by a few % every year.

During 1960s, 1970s, our salaries is $1,000 (cannot recall, assume $1,000) - we can buy noodles at $0.50cents. Previously, only husband work, wife take care of house care.

But now, our household median salaries base on yearly % increase (plus many other factors like high value added jobs, new technologies and machineries, higher productivity) --- it is now $10,869 per month (10 times more).

1960-1970 HDB finance

For $60,000 flats, taking a HDB loan for 20 years, assume an interest rate of 2.60%, HDB owners will need only to pay $256.50 per month

Take home pay $1,000 - $256.50 = $743.50 - to survive for daily expenses after paying housing loan

2024 HDB finance

For $500,000 BTO flats, taking a HDB loan for 20 years, assume an interest rate of 2.60%, HDB owners will need to pay $2,137.50.

Take home pay $10,869 - $2,137.50 = $8,731.50 - to survive for daily expenses after paying housing loan

So household income - vis-a-vis affordability of housing loan - comparing 1960s-1970s to 2024 --- our population are not worst off.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 3:32 PM]

Is it reasonable to expect price in 1960s or 70s

Let me ask you if the price and the growth of salary or economy increase proportionally. Are they using same effort to get the same thing

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:33 PM]

Sorry don't understand the question.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:34 PM]

Last time people are coolies.

Now people use computer.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:39 PM]

b. Inflation - as population income increases, inflation (goods and services prices) will also increase.

In Singapore, 2 to 2.5% inflation is a norm.

Hence food prices do increase from 0.50cents a noodle in 1960s to now $4 - is not unexpected as our income increase 10 times ($1,000 to $10,000 per household income).

c. Production costs increase.

As raw material prices increase, workers income increase, of course manufacturing costs also increase.

Land developers need also to survive and thrive, will also increase price - as more business demand more lands to build offices and factories.

d. Economy grows, Economy sophistication grows, taxes rises to cope with increase sophistication.

e. Technology advancement, drive up cost in investment and infrastructure investment.

Hence not possible to compare 1960s-70s prices to 2024.

Economy grows. We cannot expect prices to be in 1960s as our Economy grow phenomenally in 2024 and expect our salaries to be $1,000?

Likewise, human age and grows. We cannot expect our bodies to remain young as we aged.

Hence it defy Economic logic, defy Law of Nature..

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 3:44 PM]

Like... In terms of salary how much time on average to earn 1 square feet Vs in 1970

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:46 PM]

1. Eg.1960s people carry goods from tongkang at harbour to warehouse using bullock cart $1,000 per month

2. 2024 people use computers in command centre, autonomous driverless truck to unload goods from container ships to warehouse earning $10,000 a month

3. So difficult to assign "proportionality" of salary increase from 1960s to 2024.

It is compounded by :-

a. Human skillsets and training

b. Technology investment

c. Business willingness to pay in terms of productivity, ability to engage skill workers, labour market demand, profitability

d. Consumer demand - ability to sell at what market price

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 3:46 PM]

Like say someone 3000/ month in today's rate before cpf detection how long does she need to work to get a same size house in terms of area compared back into the 70s

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:47 PM]

I prefer my current house.

In 1970, I live in a rundown house.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 3:47 PM]

I prefer my current house.

In 1970, I live in a rundown house.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 3:57 PM]

So in 1970 earning 400/month  35000/400 =87.5 months 

Now in 2024 earning 3000/month and  700000/3000 = 233 months

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 3:57 PM]

You see the difference

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 3:58 PM]

Even you earn 5k you still need to pay 140 months where the house is so much smaller compared to big old flats

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:01 PM]

I hope that explains my point

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:02 PM]

That's why I am thinking if we should actually reduce our population to free more land for bigger houses

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 4:03 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:03 PM]

Now bto flat don't cost $700,000 unless you are saying resale flats

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:04 PM]

Also reducing population means our domestic market smaller, economy become worst off.

Not enough people to protect our country.

Easily eaten up and overrun.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:05 PM]

5 room flat $500,000 still available.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:06 PM]

If salary is $3,000, advisable to buy 4 room flat or smaller.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:08 PM]

Depends on location also but usually 500000 to 700000

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:09 PM]

Choose something we can afford.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:09 PM]

Where resale 4 room flat is bigger than new bto 5 room flat and extc condo lol

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:11 PM]

Imagine you buy executive condo and your relatives say wah so expensive and small. My 4 room flat is so much bigger and cheaper than yours. How would you feel

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:13 PM]

I don't look at such gimmick stuff.

A plain old HDB flat good enough for me.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:14 PM]

What I meant is the price and the size must match mah. Cannot be in the 70s this price can buy a big house and now after accounting inflation the same price cannot buy the same size house

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:15 PM]

If  the price is equal after accounting inflation no one will complain

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:15 PM]

I just take the house that match my needs.

I don't go around comparing how nice or how big the house is.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:16 PM]

Like I compare between price /m square

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:16 PM]

If the house is smaller and I am satisfied the price should be much cheaper

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:18 PM]

All my siblings live in private properties very big.

My close friend live in private condos.

I happily choose a HDB flat as it match my needs.

Why need to compare?

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:18 PM]

You don't understand my point

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:19 PM]

I understand your points.

Except I don't want to go down to the Nitty gritty to count little little things.

Just be happy.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:20 PM]

I thought Bhutan happy?

Then go for nitty gritty not happy.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:21 PM]

My point is in the 80s the same x/square meter now by right should be x(inflation)/ square meter. But now is the price is bigger than x(inflation)/square meter

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:22 PM]

Bhutan no need so much money to have a shelter mah

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:22 PM]

For Singaporean welfare you know

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:22 PM]

Well, come back to 初心。

Just be happy.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:24 PM]

I think this is something gov needs to address lol. I know you rich but think of others who are struggling

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:25 PM]

I thought government give you more grants to buy HDB flat?

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:26 PM]

Yup but does that cover inflation and probably there's also grants during lky era

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:27 PM]

If not people will continue to stay in the old run down village and not willing to move

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:27 PM]

You must be realistic.

Cannot expect big house when cannot afford.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:29 PM]

I just doing a comparison between era after accounting inflation

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:30 PM]

Consider buying Johor house.

Very big and cheap.

Singapore not enough lands.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:31 PM]

I am considering it... If I got the ability definitely will

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:31 PM]

Got RTS, can easily move in and out.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:36 PM]

Yup most probably more Singaporean will buy Malaysia housing unless Singapore housing price dropped

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:37 PM]

There will be in and out.

More foreigners want to come in.

Some Singaporeans want bigger house and cheaper prices.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:39 PM]

Then Singapore will be more of a hotel than home

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:39 PM]

Singapore land will always be a premium because demand will always go up because our economy will always grow.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 4:41 PM]

Which means hotel lor attract more investment then our own people kena kick out lor

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 4:42 PM]

Many Singaporeans can bear with the constraints and stay.

Your expectations cannot be fulfilled.

So can't be helped.

G, [21/8/2024 5:01 PM]

Stats should have granularity to how many members of the household are contributing to the income. 

The impact on household affordability can vary vastly. Single income household earning median wage being able to afford typical 4 room HDB flat without requiring grants and/or 30 year mortgages is very different from having dual income (each earning half the median income). 

The spouse that is not working in a single income household has the capacity to manage the household (chores, taking care of dependants etc). In dual income households, both spouses need to work and won't have as much capacity to manage the household and dependant, thus requiring a household manager (in-laws, FDW etc?), and or the requirement for child care services, thus causing overall household expenses to increase. Thus impacting things they can afford.

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 5:01 PM]

[ Poll : 1. How do you feel about the recent reduction in the loan-to-value (LTV) limit for HDB loans from 80% to 75%? ]

- Supportive

- Not Supportive (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 5:01 PM]

[ Poll : 2. Are you satisfied with the increase in Enhanced CPF Housing Grant (EHG) for first-time buyers? ]

- Yes

- No (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 5:01 PM]

[ Poll : 3. What other concerns do you have regarding the current HDB resale market? ]

- Rising prices and affordability

- Potential Market Bubble

- Nil, I am confident in the cooling measures implemented

- Others (please share your views in the chats below)

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 5:01 PM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls 📊and share your opinion 💭. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan

G, [21/8/2024 5:02 PM]

HDB's metrics is thus not good enough if they only look at household income without examining how many members of that household are working for income

G, [21/8/2024 5:09 PM]

What's the trend of median incomes of first time HDB buyers? 

It will also be more useful to use this number to gauge affordability than Singapore's median income

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:11 PM]

Gov will not give individual income. They will skew statistics by putting household income

G, [21/8/2024 5:12 PM]

Then this is mischievous

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:13 PM]

Looks like the expectation of singaporean society is dual income household

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:14 PM]

Lol i hate how some vouchers is given to whole household instead of individual

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:14 PM]

Is family poor and all have to live under one roof then how?

G, [21/8/2024 5:15 PM]

Your comparison is incomplete without showing floor areas / flat size

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:15 PM]

I think sg needs a land value tax. If your lifestyle is not making efficient use of our precious land reserves needs to be disincsntivised

G, [21/8/2024 5:18 PM]

Which is why it's mischievous to just state household income.

Because flats were affordable by single income household earning median salary in the 80s. Can afford 4 room HDB flat without grants and or 30 year mortgages

But now mostly dual income

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:19 PM]

At this point my household income is my parents + me working

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:19 PM]

Gonna be triple income household

G, [21/8/2024 5:24 PM]

Yes.. That's why it's also important to see the trend of first time buyers' median incomes vs BTO prices, and not Singapore median income. 

This will give a more accurate picture of affordability

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:25 PM]

Actually this is also anoter big problem. The demographics of people who buy bto, and those who wanna buy bto but cannot because of gov policy

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:25 PM]

Like how can we plot data of singles who want to buy bto?

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:26 PM]

Actually, what gov needs to plot is income over time of people who get bto and their age

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:27 PM]

You cannot treat some couple who get bto fresh out of uni with 5k salary each the same as a older couple

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:28 PM]

Then if single buy bto at 35, they already lose out to their peers who rushed into marraige a decade earlier. Assuming they are within the income cap too

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:29 PM]

Actually should we even talk about the social issues that pressure couples into getting bto?

Adam, [21/8/2024 5:29 PM]

Does the gov acknowledge it?

G, [21/8/2024 5:29 PM]

This comparison also incomplete without comparing the purchasing power of the dollar value of whatever you state as "take home pay"

Furthermore, in the past, CPF wasn't allowed to be used for HDB financing. Means single income households could afford HDBs using cash payment only, and the household could still get by. 

Now the vast majority are using CPF to finance their mortgages, and the purchasing power of their cash has gone down compared to the 80s

G, [21/8/2024 5:49 PM]

It's a simple question that you have convoluted

Question was about salary. Dollar quantum by month but you have to add in extra parameters to confuse

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 5:51 PM]

I have been using cpf to pay my housing for 20 years and I now fully pay up.

G, [21/8/2024 5:51 PM]

Using outlier example when people talk about trend

G, [21/8/2024 5:52 PM]

Will it make the govt look bad?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 5:52 PM]

1968 CPF can be used to pay HDB flat

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 5:53 PM]

government introduced the Central Provident Fund (CPF) (Amendment) Act in September 1968, allowing CPF savings to be used for the downpayment and monthly instalments for new flats purchased from HDB.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 5:53 PM]

Source :- google.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 5:56 PM]

My nephew and niece can afford to finance their new HDB flats - because they choose 4 rooms flat with grants and can afford.

No need cash layout.

Unless people want big big house, cannot afford yet die die want - of course cannot afford lah.

G, [21/8/2024 5:57 PM]

Are they single income or dual income households?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 5:58 PM]

Dual income.

Close to household median income.

Live comfortably because they are realistic.

G, [21/8/2024 5:58 PM]

If they are single household income, can still afford what they chose?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 5:59 PM]

Then choose a 3 r or 2 r type

G, [21/8/2024 5:59 PM]

Answer the question: can they still afford the 4 room flat they chose if they only had 1 income

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 5:59 PM]

Oh lazy to answer rude questions.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:01 PM]

I and my siblings single income.

We have fully paid up our houses.

G, [21/8/2024 6:01 PM]

What a kop out. 

It's with a high probability that they cannot afford the 4 rm flat if it were just based on 1 income now. 

But in the 80s, single income on median salary can afford 4 rm flat

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 6:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

G, [21/8/2024 6:02 PM]

When did you buy your houses?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:02 PM]

That's why you don't understand simple English.

If cannot afford buy 3r or 2r.

G, [21/8/2024 6:03 PM]

You don't understand affordability comparison. 

How to gauge affordability over the years if you mix and match flat times on whims?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:04 PM]

I know of people single income.

1,500 choose a 1 room flat.

3 person in a household.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:04 PM]

Why need 5 room and 4 room if cannot afford?

G, [21/8/2024 6:04 PM]

So what, in future, tell Singaporeans: too bad, you can afford 1 rm flat what, complain about affordability for what?

G, [21/8/2024 6:05 PM]

Nope. Ask u to compare 4rm flat affordability in 80s vs today. Since 4rm flats are the most produced flat types in SG

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:05 PM]

If you can't afford, get what you can afford.

There are many people who are doing well.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:06 PM]

If you can't do well, ask yourself why so many people can and yet you cannot?

G, [21/8/2024 6:06 PM]

So means to say, single income household today can only afford 3rm and below la.. but in the 80s, single income household can afford 4rm flat?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:07 PM]

Yawn...

G, [21/8/2024 6:08 PM]

Preaching that people should only buy what they can afford, when people are raising concerns about affordability is fine gaslighting

CTO, [21/8/2024 6:08 PM]

The goalpost had shifted again liao……..

G, [21/8/2024 6:08 PM]

How big are your houses and when did you buy them?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:15 PM]

Which income groups you belong to?

G, [21/8/2024 6:16 PM]

Why does this information matter?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:16 PM]

Oh so your question also irrelevant.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:17 PM]

For those who yearn to have more land by reducing work force, take a look at Japan. Lots of cheap houses. Depressing economy.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:17 PM]

Exactly.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:17 PM]

The gov should concentrate on increasing income for everyone.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:17 PM]

This is a better approach.

G, [21/8/2024 6:17 PM]

Why? You are the one who claimed to be able to afford and fully pay up your house using single income

I have been the one raising affordability concerns vs single / multiple income streams.

G, [21/8/2024 6:18 PM]

No. Govt should be concentrating increasing purchasing power for everyone

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:18 PM]

We dont want to go the kamalanomics where you try to control prices.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:18 PM]

All my niece and nephew can afford with a single income.

G, [21/8/2024 6:18 PM]

Afford what? The same 4 room flat they chose?

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:19 PM]

Can afford a house and raise a family with single income.

Too bad if you can't.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:19 PM]

I live in 3room hdb and my wife is a housewife. I believe it is doable for many singaporean.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:19 PM]

Yes 

Realistic and pragmatic.

G, [21/8/2024 6:19 PM]

Koping out again

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:20 PM]

My wife chose not to work because this is what we want for our family.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:20 PM]

less income but we are happy.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:21 PM]

You can't too bad.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:21 PM]

Married Singaporean can afford to buy an hdb after working for 5 years. This is not the case in KL and Jakarta.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:21 PM]

I am referring to buying a house in the same city that you work.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:22 PM]

when it comes to retirement, we can spend our money in neighbouring countries.

G, [21/8/2024 6:22 PM]

😂 can't admit that HDB flats have become much less affordable over the years?

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:23 PM]

I have a brother in Toronto and the price of a house in Toronto is really beyond the purchasing power of the local grads.

G, [21/8/2024 6:23 PM]

Why compare affordability with other countries? Why not compare against ourselves?

compare affordability in terms of qty of income streams for a given flat type over the years

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:24 PM]

We need to compare what we have with other places. And count our blessings.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:24 PM]

There are always improvement to be made

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:25 PM]

When we say KL is cheap, we need to ask the locals with local pay.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:26 PM]

Fresh grads in jakarta (from good uni) only earns sgd500 per month. Compare that to our poly grads.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:27 PM]

My nephew and niece bought about $450,000 4 rm flat.

With grants and take up HDB loan 20 years pay about less than $2,000 from CPF.

Not a single cent cash layout.

Take home pay no impact.

That's why they say cannot afford.

Unless those $2,000 per month and below probably.

So a calculation with those who already bought.

We know who can be believed and who cannot.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:28 PM]

Single income can afford already.

Wife work, additional income.

More than enough cash.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:28 PM]

I paid less than 1k for my hdb from cpf. Not stressful.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:29 PM]

Now fresh graduates already receive $4,600.

After 3 years easily $5,000 plus 

Some good ones $6,000 plus.

Single income who say not enough.

Want to sian - people not stupid.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:29 PM]

it's good that the gov tried to make people more prudent in their mortgage.

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:30 PM]

it's not enough because they want a condo

Hanny, [21/8/2024 6:30 PM]

expectation needs to be managed

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:30 PM]

Exactly.

I tend to believe your experience because it is credible.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:30 PM]

Exactly.

It is all about expectations.

Realistic and pragmatic or not.

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 6:32 PM]

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 6:32 PM]

Dear Contributors, 

Let’s be courteous to one another so that we can have a conducive discussion. 

It is everyone’s responsibility to make this online space a safe and conducive one for all contributors to share your views and feedback on national issues.

Please be reminded of the Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-telegram-terms 

Thank you. 

Megan

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:33 PM]

So dual income family is more than $10,000.

Single income about $5,000 or more.

Who say cannot afford a $450,000 4 rm flat?

When CPF can pay $1950 a month loan?

No cash layout needed.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:34 PM]

Condo one million of course not enough lah.

Head not so big, don't wear a big hat.

Else trip and fall.

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 6:39 PM]

Nah not getting a house at the moment. Will look how's the housing price outlook down the road

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 6:40 PM]

Will see lah cause declining birth rate and aging population by right more house will be empty down the road

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 6:41 PM]

Unless govt keep importing foreigners

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 6:41 PM]

To keep up the demand

Jun Ming, [21/8/2024 6:43 PM]

So I think there will be one day supply over demand

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 6:46 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

G, [21/8/2024 6:46 PM]

Throwing out raw numbers without appropriate context, and using it to claim affordability 😆 

When the real concern is decreasing affordability.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:48 PM]

I am telling you, my nephew and niece are staying in their flats now.

Real facts and figures.

Not spewing rubbish.

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:49 PM]

Not giving false facts like CPF cannot use to finance HDB flat.

G, [21/8/2024 6:58 PM]

Yes. No one disputing this claim. 

And it's a fact that for a given flat sizes, houses were more affordable in the 80s than today. 

Because single income at median salary can afford a 4 rm flat in the 80s without grants and 30 yr mortgages, but today cannot. 

And you claim to be able to afford your house on a single income but refuse to say the house size and when you bought it

LCL (Danny 心), [21/8/2024 6:59 PM]

Difficult to talk to you.

I rather shake legs and drink coffee.

G, [21/8/2024 6:59 PM]

Going by the trend for this reach pro PAP echo chamber group, the govt will have end up having negatively skewed data points

REACH Singapore, [21/8/2024 6:59 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

Nicole, [21/8/2024 7:00 PM]

Really...? It depends on the sector doesn't it?

====

*To close the loop if last topic, in a married family of single income - can afford 5-room BTO flat*

5 Room flats :

Boon Lay Glade, Jurong West Jewel $338,000 to $457,000 (5-room)

Aranda Breeze @ Yishun $366,000 to $459,000 (5-room)

Canberra Vista (Sembawang) $350,000 to $406,000 (5-room)

Sun Sails (Sembawang) $336,000 to $388,000 (5-room)

Grove Spring @ Yishun $385,000 to $485,000 (5-room)

Yishun Boardwalk (Yishun) $410,000 to $490,000 (5-room)

Yishun Beacon (Yishun) $485,000 to $595,000 (5-room)

Matilda Riverside $464,000 (5-room)

Woodgrove Edge $412,000 (5-room)

Taking the high side of 5 room flats = $480,000

Minus housing grants = $50,000

Remaining price = $430,000

Take a 20 years loan at 2.6% HDB/CPF loans = $1,838.25 loan installment a month payable to CPF.

A single income graduate (after 3 years of job) = $5,000 (starting pay $4,600).

Self CPF 20% + Employer CPF 17% = $1,850

No cash outlay - single income can pay for a 5 room flat (at 50 years old flat fully paid).

If take 25 years loan (service up to 55 years old), lagi affordable $1,470.60 repayment a month.

Fully payable by CPF.

No cash layout.

(This is to address the one that jump into hasty conclusion without doing the homework 

misleading others. 

Hence single income cannot afford a 5-room flat is not a true statement.)

====

*Respond to why 1960s, 1970s the 5 room flat bigger than now*

1. 1960 and 1970s, Singapore is a undeveloped and under developing country.

Land is not a premium because many high value added investors are not coming in.

Now 2024, Singapore land is a premium.

People got to pay higher for each square foot of land especially in premium areas.

2. 2024 - The 5-room HDBs are the largest type of HDB flat, measuring around 110 to 130 square meters. Source :- Google.

1985 5-room flat size 120 sq metres (about 1,291 sq ft).

Surprisingly, I discover the flat size is almost the same.

3. So if a 5 room flat fetch about $200,000 40 years ago, $500,000 in 2024 is not too far fetch. (2.5 times).

Because 40 years ago, 1 bowl of noodles is $1.

Now is $4. (4 times).

====

*To close the loop on the previous topic - Are HDB flats getting smaller?*

Since 1997, the sizes of HDB flats have remained unchanged, even though the average household size has declined over the years.

What is the size of an old 4-room flat?

The standard size of a 4-room HDB flat is 90 square meters (969 square feet) for new flats and 82 square meters (883 square feet) for older flats.18 Jan 2024.

Source: Google from HDB website.

HDB | Designs-continually-improved-to-better-meet-needs

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/about-us/news-and-publications/letters-to-the-media/Designs-continually-improved-to-better-meet-needs#:~:text=Since%201997%2C%20the%20sizes%20of,has%20declined%20over%20the%20years.

=====

*To address the salary of fresh graduates - 2024 fresh graduates salaries*

Art & Business graduates $3,500 (lowest)

IT graduates $7,752 (highest)

Average graduate salary $4,600 (Honour)

Graduate Employment Survey 2023 (Published 2024) | Salary.sg - Your Salary in Singapore

https://www.salary.sg/2024/graduate-employment-survey-2023-published-2024/

====