REACH 514 - What are your views on the Constitutional Amendment to allow president and ministers to take on international appointments in their private capacities?
(SK)
24 Nov 2023 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
24/11/23, 9:46 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
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24/11/23, 9:59 am - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
On 22 November 2023, the Parliament passed a Constitutional Amendment allowing president and ministers to take on international roles in their private capacities. Previously, under the Constitution, the President may hold global appointments in an official capacity.
“This Bill allows (the president) to express private views but still serve in the national interest, doing duties that are integral and part and parcel of presidential duties”, said DPM Lawrence Wong.
💬 *What are your views on the Constitutional Amendment to allow president and ministers to take on international appointments in their private capacities?*
In assessing invitations for the President to take on international appointments, the Cabinet will consider the commitments expected by the role, such as the meeting load and travel demands.
“This will ensure that the President’s holding of these roles remains to Singapore’s benefit and will not in any way affect his ability to exercise the rest of his constitutional duties,” DPM Wong said. “The Prime Minister will likewise do the same for roles involving ministers.”
President Tharman Shanmugaratnam currently holds four international appointments. These are positions he held when he was senior minister. He now holds these roles in his official capacity as President, with the advice and support of the Cabinet, and does not receive any remuneration or other benefits from these appointments.
_Benefits of taking global roles in private capacity_:
📌 While international bodies want appointees to carry on with their official roles, and bring with them their official status and reputations, they also seek independent contributions from these appointees to fulfil the goals of each organisation.
📌 Taking on such a post should be helpful in advancing Singapore’s standing and interest on the international stage, and offer benefits to Singapore as a whole or the government overseeing the sector that organisation operates in. For example, the president or the minister’s participation could help advance views that are aligned with Singapore’s outlook and approach on issues which help shape the global agenda in areas that are critical to Singapore.
📌 At a stage of development where national interests are becoming more closely intertwined with global interests, and the Bill will help to strengthen Singapore’s voice in the international stage and add to its participation in influential global forums.
👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/constitution-amended-to-let-president-take-global-roles-in-private-capacity-if-in-national-interest
24/11/23, 10:01 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed the group description
24/11/23, 10:01 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow all participants to send messages to this group
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24/11/23, 10:17 am - +Ben: This is a terrible idea and terrible timing. We just elected him and it's clear that this was on the agenda all along, but no one told us?
The beauty of our presidency was impartiality and only serving Singapore's interest, not private and personal interests.
I'm quite shocked by this.
It's not like he needs the money....
Why can he not contribute as our president and feel free to offer advice and support but not directly benefit?
24/11/23, 10:18 am - +Ben: and I just read that this has extended to Ministers too? This opens the door to corruption and conflict of interest. What is the justification for this?
24/11/23, 10:19 am - +Frankie Wee: Not only singaporean benefit but development in private sectors capacity. How to be role president and where he was constituted amended in 1965 independent states.
24/11/23, 10:20 am - +Ben: This concentrates power and resources to too few people.
24/11/23, 10:25 am - +Jeffrey: We should not take constitutional amendments lightly, even though we cannot do anything to stop constitutional amendments.
What did the opposition parties offer as arguments against this? <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 10:26 am - +Ben: I can't understand how this just get passed with no discussion or debate or consultation. Amending the constitution is like heart surgery on our nation.
24/11/23, 10:28 am - +Rama: Totally against it! Blatant disrespect of the electorate vote!😳🤦♂️😡😖
24/11/23, 10:30 am - +Frankie Wee: Mean he sale the constitution for amend if any country interest in private capacity lets said Africa accept how?
24/11/23, 10:34 am - +Liang Wei: Very disappointing for someone so highly respected in our country
1) When someone assumes a position like presidency, the person should respect and protect the existing constitutional requirements n not be holding positions that diminish that in any way.
He should have resigned from those positions before assuming the presidency or at the very least make definite plans to end these in the near term.
2) Any merits of such a move can be discussed subsequently. And he can then legitimately assume roles later after the country has considered things carefully.
If he cannot even show basic respect to the due process of the constitution, he really does not deserve the trust we placed in him
24/11/23, 10:36 am - +Ben: 100%. I think this will be very damaging for the Government, sadly.
24/11/23, 10:40 am - +Liang Wei: <Media omitted>
24/11/23, 10:46 am - +Ben: key word being 'preserve' and certainly not to change it for personal gain....
24/11/23, 10:50 am - +KL: Hahaha why ask when they already decided ?
24/11/23, 11:03 am - +Ben: Maybe Gov can do a better job of explaining the situation because it's very unclear in the ST article...
24/11/23, 11:03 am - +KL: This remind me that NSF cant moonlighting right ?
24/11/23, 11:03 am - +Rama: Government and Parliament played out the electorate! Not my president!
24/11/23, 11:03 am - +Rama: Dammed blady rude!
24/11/23, 11:03 am - +Rama: No white paper or referendum!
24/11/23, 11:03 am - +Rama: Dangerous precedence!
24/11/23, 11:03 am - +Rama: Wth!?
24/11/23, 11:07 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: I don't mind our *current* president holding international posts because i trust that he will do the right thing. that trust does not extend to others in the future that comes after him.
This is another example where we have given our present government carte blanche to do anything they like. It also shows the importance of voting the right people into the government because of the power we will be giving them.
24/11/23, 11:08 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: right people = people who will look out for the nation of Singapore
24/11/23, 11:17 am - +Thomas: I read that he is doing for free at the international role ?
24/11/23, 11:19 am - +Rama: No difference for me whoever the president is NO!
24/11/23, 11:19 am - +Timothy Low: Given that our current president is currently holding international posts that have no remuneration, I am neutral about it if he can offer the respective of small nations in the international arena. However like many others have pointed out, we can’t assume future presidents and ministers will not be performing private roles with remuneration
24/11/23, 11:20 am - +Rama: Irrelevant!
24/11/23, 11:32 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
1. Whether humanity can survive the next 50 years or not is questionable now...
2. The world is asking will WW3 arrive sooner than later.
24/11/23, 11:33 am - +Rama: Yes
24/11/23, 11:35 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
Today Taiwan registration of Presidential candidates is one very concerning and decisive factor.
It doesn't look good.
It can determine whether will a big regional war break up at our backyard.
24/11/23, 11:36 am - +KL: Any soln if really happen ?
24/11/23, 11:36 am - +Rama: Provocation is increasing
24/11/23, 11:37 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
"As Singapore heads into dangerous times, SAF must be strong and credible: DPM Wong".
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/as-singapore-heads-into-dangerous-times-saf-must-be-strong-and-credible-dpm-wong#:~:text=As%20Singapore%20heads%20into%20dangerous%20times%2C%20SAF%20must%20be%20strong%20and%20credible%3A%20DPM%20Wong
24/11/23, 11:37 am - +Rama: Definitely
24/11/23, 11:38 am - +KL: Some ppl for monetary gain , some for name ( to leave a name in history ) <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 11:38 am - +Rama: Some for both!
24/11/23, 11:39 am - +Ben: Topic changed today?
24/11/23, 11:40 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
Only international diplomacy works...
Hopefully our President Tharman can lend a voice at international bodies to rescue if situation turn for the worst.
Else humanity may not even survive the coming decades...
24/11/23, 11:41 am - +Ben: Fear is a tried and tested way to control society.
24/11/23, 11:41 am - +Rama: Get him to solve the Russian and Ukraine war plus the Israel and Palestinian conflict for the noble peace prize!?
24/11/23, 11:42 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
Solve our own backyard first.
24/11/23, 11:46 am - +Frankie Wee: Singapore is small island with self defence if China coming to invade south East China Sea
24/11/23, 11:46 am - +Rama: Without personal private time side line hustle!
24/11/23, 11:47 am - +Rama: We will be swallowed even with fpda assistance by China !
24/11/23, 11:48 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
"Most dangerous time the world has seen in decades’: Jamie Dimon warns investors, worries geopolitics could trigger a 'deep recession' — 4 ways to hedge your portfolio".
I agree with his assessment - the world is facing a very dangerous time.
Russia ambition in Europe, middle east war, Asia Pacific tension - most dangerous is Taiwan straits, Korea peninsula, south china sea.
Can trigger nuclear war or WW3 - if everything go wrong at the same time.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/most-dangerous-time-world-seen-113000628.html#:~:text=%E2%80%98-,Most%20dangerous%20time%20the%20world%20has%20seen%20in%20decades%E2%80%99%3A%20Jamie%20Dimon%20warns%20investors%2C%20worries%20geopolitics%20could%20trigger%20a%20%27deep%20recession%27%20%E2%80%94%204%20ways%20to%20hedge%20your%20portfolio,-Bethan%20Moorcraft
24/11/23, 11:48 am - +Rama: Agree
24/11/23, 11:50 am - +Ben: What are your thoughts on today's topic?
24/11/23, 11:51 am - +Frankie Wee: Global economy will collapsing
24/11/23, 11:54 am - +Frankie Wee: China became developed and power but too big to failure. Still make politicians govt to reach out.
US and NATO nothing can with China
24/11/23, 11:55 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
1. I stay neutral.
2. Agree Tharman as President in international stage - can play a role when world situation turn bad - which is very likely.
Humanity survival is at stake.
3. But agree with the assessment - cannot assume future candidates can achieve such benefits for Singapore.
24/11/23, 11:55 am - +Rama: Moving away from USD as the world number one reserve currency by some 45 countries is in the works. Petroyuan was used recently when China bought oil from Saudi Arabia!
24/11/23, 11:55 am - +Frankie Wee: Also Russia oil and gas sell to China
24/11/23, 11:56 am - +Rama: Yes
24/11/23, 11:56 am - +Ben: ok
24/11/23, 11:59 am - +Frankie Wee: Must be humanity coming crisis.
24/11/23, 11:59 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
It is.
24/11/23, 12:02 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
24/11/23, 12:05 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
"Singapore must continue to have a strong armed forces and sustain its commitment to national service amid a fragmented and volatile world, said Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong at the opening of Safra’s seventh clubhouse in Choa Chu Kang on Nov 23."
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singapore-must-sustain-commitment-to-national-service-lawrence-wong#:~:text=Singapore%20must%20continue%20to%20have%20a%20strong%20armed%20forces%20and%20sustain%20its%20commitment%20to%20national%20service%20amid%20a%20fragmented%20and%20volatile%20world%2C%20said%20Deputy%20Prime%20Minister%20Lawrence%20Wong%20at%20the%20opening%20of%20Safra%E2%80%99s%20seventh%20clubhouse%20in%20Choa%20Chu%20Kang%20on%20Nov%2023.
24/11/23, 12:09 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Singaporeans must be able to connect all the dots - and see the full true picture.
24/11/23, 12:13 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Our government interacting with the world leaders and world bodies - see the whole picture 1st hand and understand the immediate danger.
It is not fear excuse to amend the constitution - because it don't sell politically domestically and has no plus point for the government.
It is the real danger that present itself now right at our backyard.
24/11/23, 12:18 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Don't assume South East Asia will be unscathed if Taiwan war break out.
The 9 dash lines is to secure A2/AD area access, area denial - to bring down warships and fighter planes.
So ASEAN will be drawn even if we want to stay out.
24/11/23, 12:19 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
24/11/23, 1:14 pm - +Thomas: This message was deleted
24/11/23, 1:25 pm - +Thomas: My personal opinion after reading thru it. On the positive side, a Singaporean appointed at the International level like UN or IMF with position of influence is a honour to the nation, I am for it as if not, Singapore misses out to influencing policy that may have an affect Singapore. I am ok with the President working on no monetary terms and on advice from the Cabinet on what position to take at international level. On the negative side, what happens if the President goes rogue and what is the recourse ? The presidency may be open to possible corruption influence both dark monetary and political and what is the recourse ? It is enshrine in the constitution and to change needs a majority. What happens if the President goes rogue and don't have the majority to change or amend it ? There will be a negative impact on the society when there is fighting between the President and Cabinet . We are assuming that President will be high integrity men/women in the future but not always the case.
24/11/23, 1:26 pm - +Rama: Ownself check ownself will cover up!
24/11/23, 1:41 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
President Xi say, he want to solve Taiwan reunification during his term and not pass this problem to future generations.
By peaceful means if possible and by military means if not possible.
So anyone guess what is the chance of Taiwan war ---- regional war?
24/11/23, 1:41 pm - +Rama: Regional War!
24/11/23, 1:42 pm - +Frankie Wee: Fail or pass if he amendments constitution
24/11/23, 1:47 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
"Xi Jinping Has ‘Deliberate Timeline’ to Resolve Taiwan Issue, Says Security Expert"
https://news.usni.org/2022/11/21/xi-jinping-has-deliberate-timeline-to-resolve-taiwan-issue-says-security-expert#:~:text=Says%20Security%20Expert-,Xi%20Jinping%20Has%20%E2%80%98Deliberate%20Timeline%E2%80%99%20to%20Resolve%20Taiwan%20Issue%2C%20Says%20Security%20Expert,-By%3A%20John
24/11/23, 1:47 pm - +REACH: 📢 *What are the implications of Singapore’s constitutional changes involving the President?*
Find out more in the CNA Explainer
👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/constitutional-changes-president-tharman-ministers-cna-explains-3941496
24/11/23, 1:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
"CNA Explains: What are the implications of Singapore's constitutional changes involving the President?
The amendments give the government "finer control" over the head of state's involvement in foreign organisations, says one constitutional law expert."
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/constitutional-changes-president-tharman-ministers-cna-explains-3941496#:~:text=CNA%20Explains%3A%20What,constitutional%20law%20expert.
24/11/23, 1:57 pm - +Jimmy Chew: I agree. Tharman is highly highly respected in the positions he is currently holding. If he can say a good word or to influence Singapore, it would be an advantage to our nation.om another note This change in the constitution can be good at the moment because of his stature and honor at the international level. Cf LKY, I am sure he should know how to balance it as compared to some rogue MPs and bearers <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 1:59 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
24/11/23, 1:59 pm - +Jimmy Chew: I heard he is as distinguished as good as LKY in terms of his demeanor and thoughts <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 2:05 pm - +Rama: Not right at all!
24/11/23, 2:06 pm - +Thomas: Tharma is as good as LKY but what happens if the next president is not that good and goes rogue .
24/11/23, 2:07 pm - +Rama: Cannot cherry pick!
24/11/23, 2:08 pm - +Thomas: yes , that is why I am not sure if there is a recourse in the constitution if such a case happens
24/11/23, 2:08 pm - +Frankie Wee: LKY gone next era mindset has changed
24/11/23, 2:10 pm - +Frankie Wee: I accepted the fact things will go beyond change in future
24/11/23, 2:10 pm - +Frankie Wee: What we live for tomorrow new days
24/11/23, 2:14 pm - +Frankie Wee: Singapore has issue important change as if Otha office public of constitution is affected
- cost of living standard
-not enough CPF retire
-wage increment
-more foreign workers
-housing price
-education system.
24/11/23, 2:15 pm - +Frankie Wee: Whether private capacity want to invest in sg or President to start open international
24/11/23, 2:16 pm - +Frankie Wee: I will accept Mr Tharman role
24/11/23, 2:16 pm - +Ben: Let's assume this was a good decision for Singapore. I'd still ask the question of when it was first discussed; why was it not communicated in advance of the election and why was there no proper consultation before the approval in parliament? This sort of behaviour undermines trust in the government and that's not something that helps anyone!
24/11/23, 2:16 pm - +Rama: Exactly!?
24/11/23, 2:16 pm - +Rama: Nil for me!
24/11/23, 2:18 pm - +Timothy Low: Can we check if any other countries' presidents are doing the same thing as well?
24/11/23, 2:19 pm - +Frankie Wee: Different own countries independent constitution
24/11/23, 2:19 pm - +Rama: Update please!
24/11/23, 2:20 pm - +Thomas: Donald Trump
24/11/23, 2:21 pm - +Rama: 😳😃😆😀😄👌👍
24/11/23, 2:21 pm - +Frankie Wee: In USA is large status area
Do you know Deriot was bankrupted and highest crime more than 5 times. Those ppl already left this area zone and houses, shopping, cities or else abandoned. <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 2:22 pm - +Frankie Wee: Those constitutional are not stated
24/11/23, 2:22 pm - +Frankie Wee: USA govt will take time rebuilding
24/11/23, 2:22 pm - +Frankie Wee: In Singapore very small island tiny
24/11/23, 2:37 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Dual mandates.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_mandate
24/11/23, 2:39 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Parliament of different countries allows political appointees to double hat - in local Parliament as well as members of other world bodies.
Eg. UK minister can also double hat as legislative member of EU.
24/11/23, 2:40 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Because with representative in both UK parliament and in EU - UK interest can be safeguarded in EU for example.
24/11/23, 2:42 pm - +Liang Wei: Don't think that is the issue.
The key issue is whether as a President who swore an oath towards the Constitution, he should have acted in this manner.
If he has gone through proper process, then it is a different matter. To jump to discuss the merits of the decision too quickly obscures the disregard to existing structures esp something as important as the constitution.
The simple question is
Should a Sg President behave in thus a manner?
24/11/23, 2:43 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Likewise, if Singapore President is also a distinguished member in IMF, global economic forum etc, his view will be taken into account in global policies that will be beneficial to Singapore.
24/11/23, 2:45 pm - +Liang Wei: I am not necessarily against the idea. I am against how it was done. I am aware of the pros and cons
Is the process n disregard beneficial for Singapore? I really don't think so.
24/11/23, 2:45 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
24/11/23, 2:46 pm - +Liang Wei: If anyone seriously thinks the disregard shown is beneficial for Sg, do feel free to share
24/11/23, 2:46 pm - +Liang Wei: Due process is as important as the decision is the point.
24/11/23, 2:49 pm - +Thomas: If I read it correctly. It is not Tharma ask to stay on but the Cabinet wants him to stay on for the benefits of Singapore. I think the process need to be transparent . But if the President is not Tharma but TKL , then the story is different and this constitution will not happen.
24/11/23, 2:50 pm - +chan5956: We have to accept that things will evolve hence the role of Singapore President will no doubt evolve as well, nothing will be stagnant at all, let's be real folks.
24/11/23, 2:50 pm - +Liang Wei: No issue with evolving. How we evolve is important
24/11/23, 2:51 pm - +Ben: Not since Brexit...
24/11/23, 2:51 pm - +chan5956: Only thru passage of time we will know.
24/11/23, 2:52 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Brexit has cost UK dearly.
Hence the coming election, will conservative lose the election to Labor party is yet to be seen. <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 2:53 pm - +Ben: Yes, goes to show even when going to the public poor decisions can be made without the right process being followed. The brexit campaign was full of misleading information (lies actually)
24/11/23, 2:54 pm - +Rama: Those are political appointments not private!?
24/11/23, 2:54 pm - +Rama: Exactly!?
24/11/23, 2:55 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Not sure.
I am equally new and unfamiliar to this global member issue. <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 3:01 pm - +Jimmy Chew: Agree. Agree. So we need some checks and balance <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 3:03 pm - +Smiley face: Getting closer to correctness and facts. Thanks Andrew!
24/11/23, 3:04 pm - +Smiley face: 24 November 2023
"Trust & Governance"
Where are the evils and how about the goodness?
Is not able the proposition nor the opposite of the opposition!
If you think your government is worthy enough to take care of the entire survivability of our country. Perhaps, the lastest changed in the Constitution allowing our key office holders from our President or our Ministers to be onboard in overseas institutions with no doubt casted over the issue of conflicts or corrupts. Trust or not comfortable about these changes?
As our nation grows so do millions of ideas and opinions flow here, there and everywhere in our little country island. The next GE is more than a leadership succession in the making but more definitive of our roadmap to peace, prosperity and unity. Let's give our trust to our new 4G leadership to steer the tougher and rougher high seas of uncharted changes! ...
24/11/23, 3:05 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
My comments to my close friend comments:-
Because private views may not fully in synch with the government view.
Hence by enshrining in constitution, private views must be more aligned to the government view.
This is the purpose of amending the constitution.
24/11/23, 3:06 pm - +Ben:
So people would be pushing an agenda they don't believe in personally?
24/11/23, 3:10 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Not exactly.
Eg. My personal view that Taiwan election is very risky currently.
My personal view is to express it in raw.
But my personal view must be put across diplomatically if I represent our government point of view.
I will have to take input from the cabinet how to put across the same viewpoints in a diplomatic manner and not just comments it in raw form that have repercussions to Singapore interest diplomatically.
The view is aligned - but the messages could be different in personal capacity versus in diplomatic channel.
24/11/23, 3:12 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Eg. Biden personal view - dictator shoot out from his mouth.
Blinken as secretary of state grimace.
This raw statement cannot come out in raw form and jeopardize US China relationship - when it is supposed to be in the mend.
24/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Smiley face: A good comment!
"Don't be afraid of going slowly; be only afraid of standing still"
- - Chinese Proverb
“不怕走慢，只怕站着”
- - 中国谚语
24/11/23, 3:22 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Another example, in personal capacity I would probably relate A2/AD in South China Sea is Taiwan related.
But through diplomatic channel - this cannot be articulated - if we don't want our Terrex to be compounded.
This is exactly what happen when my view appear in a social media forum a few years ago.
So the amendment to the constitution will help to safeguard Singapore interest - because personal view will be more aligned to the cabinet views.
24/11/23, 3:28 pm - +Jimmy Chew: Maybe done intentionally to win the voters. Biden is a diplomat and politician for many years. hahaha I think it's all a show
24/11/23, 3:30 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Singapore don't have such leeway to do political stunt.
So need to put safeguard - albeit a rush one.
24/11/23, 3:31 pm - +Jimmy Chew: Agree
24/11/23, 3:36 pm - +Rama: Still, ownself cover ownself is dangerous!
24/11/23, 3:37 pm - +Anne: Dear G,
Two issues arise here. I object to this Bill about
(1) the president and ministers taking in roles in international organizations, and
(2) allowing the bill to time travel to the past in order to legitimize Mr. Tharman as our president.
(1) - We cannot assume we know about the true agenda of the international organisations our ministers and president participate in. The public agenda may sound benign to SG affairs, but the people behind these organisations may have ulterior motives that are not easily detectable by the G. Hence, we should not have decision makers like our ministers and president to join such organisations. We cannot risk our ministers and president being indoctrinated into the ideologies held by these organisations.
(2) - We should not allow our laws to time travel to the past. By doing so, this allows our politicians and government officials who had broken the law to escape the judgement of the courts. It is bad enough that ministers can change the law to suit their agenda, but it is worse if the law can be effective retrospectively. By doing so, you have just demonstrated that this “rule-based order” that you are so proud of is nothing but a front for a dictatorship.
Therefore, I implore Mr. Tharman to step down as our President, even though he is a caring and capable person. I believe he is the most suitable person to be our President, but how he got the role speaks loudly and clearly about the INTEGRITY of our G and the election process. Hence, he should step down and allow Mr. Ng Kok Song to take on the role of our President.
Thank you. <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 3:38 pm - +Rama: Agree
24/11/23, 3:46 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Step down???
I guess is a joke right...
24/11/23, 3:51 pm - +Rama: Relinquish private appointments better!
24/11/23, 3:51 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
And leave us with no voice when regional war broke up?
24/11/23, 3:52 pm - +Rama: Us is ASEAN or!?
24/11/23, 3:53 pm - +Jimmy Chew: Yeah. But such a waste especially if he is brilliant, can fly our colors and get us involved internationally. Like those years America is Great hahaha
24/11/23, 3:53 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Whether Singapore or ASEAN or represent the world, one good and wise voice is better than thousands of unwise voice.
24/11/23, 3:53 pm - +Rama: Were we worse off before!?
24/11/23, 3:54 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
I recall Singapore leaders voice are prize very high in international stage. <This message was edited>
24/11/23, 3:55 pm - +Rama: In th UN!
24/11/23, 3:56 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If a person is directly involved in global policies making compare to political voice in UN, which one more value added?
24/11/23, 3:57 pm - +Rama: Divide private, political and public responsibilities.
24/11/23, 3:57 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
This is what double hat is all about.
24/11/23, 3:58 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
24/11/23, 3:58 pm - +Rama: Conflict of interest!
24/11/23, 3:59 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Many people double hat with no conflict of interest.
24/11/23, 3:59 pm - +Rama: Hidden from public scrutiny!
24/11/23, 4:00 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
The interest is aligned with multiplier effects.
24/11/23, 4:08 pm - +~.@: I am of the opinion that indeed the amendment was rushed into effect. And should have been better formulated and articulated.
But the intention and international participation will lend us credibility in the international stage. The globalized world is increasingly become fragmented. If we can lend our leaders to lead the world to be a better state, it is our honour. If we deny such an appointment is akin to being a frog in the well. Thinking we are sheltered from the waves of the world issues will just make us be sidelined and irrelevant. The end result is opportunities will be deprived from our people because Singapore is such an irrelevant state to begin with.
The cabinet is also equipped with the oversight to ensure that such roles are truly in the interest of our country. And scrutiny is provided in this manner. If the electorate disagrees, they can well support the opposition to replace the incumbent cabinet. And see if the new cabinet will disagree with it.
Furthermore, many have correctly pointed out that the president role is largely ceremonious and can only act with the advise of the cabinet and CPA. So, if he can be put to better use, why are we stopping him and insisting he must be a vase displayed in the Istana?
24/11/23, 4:10 pm - +Rama: Believe that this was planned sometime ago but made public upon social media outcry!
24/11/23, 4:10 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
The President look after the reserves.
Not ceremonial.
24/11/23, 4:10 pm - +~.@: look after the reserves, and ?
24/11/23, 4:11 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
And others as stated in the constitution.
24/11/23, 4:11 pm - +Rama: What's the remuneration package for the private matters!?
24/11/23, 4:12 pm - +~.@: signing his assent on laws to be gazetted after the law is passed by parliament? looking after the reserves and use it only on the advice of the cabinet?
24/11/23, 4:13 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Well I am not in the cabinet and not sure how important the role is.
But evidently, it look important to the government.
24/11/23, 4:14 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
And Tharman overwhelming support indicates he got the support of the majority of the voters according to constitution.
24/11/23, 4:15 pm - +Rama: We're voters ultimately misled!?
24/11/23, 4:18 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Hmm...
Is it?
I thought we know Tharman is the members of world bodies and his campaign articulated this in national TV as his plus points.
Many people voted him for this advantages which are absent in the other candidates.
Isn't it?
24/11/23, 4:19 pm - +Rama: No upfront prior on private appointments to continue!?
24/11/23, 4:20 pm - +Liang Wei: Well it is a good candidate who has an amazing CV putting himself forward for a full time job. If he had said that he will take the role only if his concurrent appts are allowed, I think that is upfront.
24/11/23, 4:20 pm - +Thomas: I guess cannot say as the constitution doesn’t allow and that’s why it is now amended
24/11/23, 4:20 pm - +Smiley face: This message was deleted
24/11/23, 4:20 pm - +Smiley face: This message was deleted
24/11/23, 4:21 pm - +Rama: Cunningly amended after being elected!?
24/11/23, 4:21 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Hmm....
Well it lack of details.
But my take is, his current appointment as president and his membership in world bodies will benefits Singapore.
I am very sure of that.
In fact, it is life and death ....
24/11/23, 4:22 pm - +Thomas: What happened if say and then somehow changes, kinda embarrassing
24/11/23, 4:22 pm - +Rama: Then, thought process faulty!?
24/11/23, 4:23 pm - +~.@: don't count your chicks until they are hatched
24/11/23, 4:24 pm - +Rama: Government already did!
24/11/23, 4:24 pm - +~.@: sure sure
24/11/23, 4:24 pm - +Rama: Yes yes
24/11/23, 4:28 pm - +Thomas: If during election and Tharman says his role will not change for international appointment as the constitution will be changed. He is campaigning as independent will be question. The change is only can be done by the pollical party and approval. He cannot mandate it to the political party as he has no political says as he has left the party when he campaign for the office. At that point, no one knows he is going to be the president
24/11/23, 4:30 pm - +Rama: To each their own opinion on this!
24/11/23, 4:39 pm - +Frankie Wee: His word switch back as what he wanted to against constitution
24/11/23, 5:05 pm - +Smiley face: Exemplum?
MM Lee Kuan Yew was invited onboard two global banks namely J P Morgan and Citibank among the International board of advisors.
Is it an honor and a nation's pride that MM Lee as a first-world Asia leader sat onboard two Global financial institutions?
Going forward, our President or our Ministers were to be onboard any Global or International institutions as advisors? Will it not equals to MM Lee accolade and services to our nation and our world and continue the legacy of our founding leaders to be engaged in the global arena?
It is simply an honor to do so, all other issues like integrity and honesty will be intact, nothing short!
So what's the problem and the so called loopholes, aka lobang?
dialogue with minister montor lee kuan yew at the association of banks https://abs.org.sg/docs/library/speech_250610.pdf
24/11/23, 5:06 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Example, how does President Biden able to unfreeze the deep cold with President Xi - in their latest encounter - it is though trade forum by yellen, blinken and other commerce Ministers that break the ice.
Hence representations in world bodies - very critical to rescue very dangerous situations.
Singapore need it now - if humanity is to survive in this critical era.
All scenarios currently have the elements that trigger WW2.
It is appearing in front of us.
24/11/23, 5:11 pm - +Jeffrey: Haha. I can't resist saying Biden is an idiot. Biden called Xi a dictator while Xi was still in the USA visiting.
The American voters don't see Biden positively now. He is seen as senile, with his son profiting from his father's vice president position earlier, and his daughter allegedly has a diary with one entry about inappropriate showers with her father.
24/11/23, 5:11 pm - +Rama: Biden is senile!
24/11/23, 5:12 pm - +Rama: Bad as dotard is, senile should not attempt reelection!
24/11/23, 5:14 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Actually if not for Biden, middle east situation and Ukraine war - could already have triggered a big Europe war and middle east war.
He de-escalate the entire global explosive scenarios from a very dangerous situations.
He also de-escalate tension with China recently though with gaffe.
Come no 2024 election - after that I don't know.
24/11/23, 5:14 pm - +Jeffrey: Back then times were as such. But for now, is it a positive for one to be associated with JP Morgan and Citibank?
24/11/23, 5:15 pm - +Rama: I rather see VP K H try after 2024
24/11/23, 5:16 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If not Biden, humanity could have demise already...
If people didn't realize it.
24/11/23, 5:17 pm - +Jeffrey: There were more peaceful times when trump was president, dumb luck or not.
Did the Biden administration push the war in the first place?
24/11/23, 5:18 pm - +Smiley face: IMF, WEF...
24/11/23, 5:19 pm - +Smiley face: "The world is like a game of chess"
- - anonymity
"世界就像一盘棋"
24/11/23, 5:20 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Hahaha...
Probably you didn't know that trump almost trigger nuclear war over nkorea.
And why trump and Kim visit Singapore - Sentosa specifically?
24/11/23, 5:20 pm - +Frankie Wee: China Xi won’t forget trump is enemy since trade war
24/11/23, 5:20 pm - +Frankie Wee: Waste $$$ for nothing peace maker
24/11/23, 5:21 pm - +Frankie Wee: US$20m spent everything
24/11/23, 5:21 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Residents in Guam scrambled into sewage underground when false alarms of nkorea missiles strike - thinking nuclear has come.
24/11/23, 5:22 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Actually humanity at the mouth of collective demise - but many people don't really know...
24/11/23, 5:23 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Om ....
24/11/23, 5:23 pm - +Rama: Yes
24/11/23, 5:23 pm - +Frankie Wee: They are not God
Human work for president make $$$ and deserve country
24/11/23, 5:24 pm - +Frankie Wee: 2024 USA president election
If Trump is win
Then China Xi tell him I have everything show off
24/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Jeffrey: You probably don't know that professional politicians in the USA are promoting the military industrial complex. They may say they want to work towards peace, but there is more money in creating war
24/11/23, 5:27 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: Hahaha....
24/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Rama: Value of stocks!
24/11/23, 5:28 pm - +Jeffrey: Back to the topic, if certain associations turn out to not look good, then it doesn't look good that a president or minister is moonlighting there.
24/11/23, 5:29 pm - +Jeffrey: I wonder if we had this discussion when tin pei ling took a job at grab.
24/11/23, 5:29 pm - +Smiley face: Would any person continue to associate with it?
No fools until proven a fool?
24/11/23, 5:30 pm - +Frankie Wee: Future Ai President without human
24/11/23, 5:30 pm - +Frankie Wee: 😅
24/11/23, 5:31 pm - +Smiley face: Beyond Reality! Likes it!
24/11/23, 5:36 pm - +Jeffrey: https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1668747661028081664
24/11/23, 5:39 pm - +Jeffrey: Tucker Carlson saying that Trump was targeted as he poses a problem for the military industrial complex
24/11/23, 5:41 pm - +Jeffrey: Right now the independent candidates (Robert F Kennedy Jr and Vivek ramaswamy and Donald Trump) in the USA election are unambiguously against the USA fanning wars.
24/11/23, 5:47 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Well probably no one knows that, b52 and b1b were dispatch with drill nuclear bombs in 3 directions to exercise dropping of the nuclear bombs - weeks before a new year.
After Guam false alarm, similar formation were dispatched with live nuclear bombs.
And it was last minute defuse, when President Kim step up in new year day wearing in gray suit - to say he want peace talk.
It is declassified in the CIA file.
Both Trump and Kim choose Singapore for the peace talk.
And specifically both choose Sentosa because one busy body suggest it is a good place for golf in social media.
Now social media all lock out already.
Don't need to know the details - but just need to know a nuclear war is averted in the last minute.
24/11/23, 5:49 pm - +Smiley face: "The young soldiers are afraid of bullets while the older soldiers are afraid of bombs"...why?
"小兵怕子弹, 老兵怕炸弹?"
24/11/23, 5:50 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
As the bombers were stealth, radar cannot detect, nkorea only know of the trial bomb through social media.
24/11/23, 5:51 pm - +Frankie Wee: Talk about nuclear ☢️ create different bomber
24/11/23, 5:51 pm - +Frankie Wee: Once it drop bomber on land then the earth will explode half
24/11/23, 5:52 pm - +Frankie Wee: Think govt so easy without believing researcher
24/11/23, 5:54 pm - +Frankie Wee: What will happen earth exploding half break then become unnatural.
President leave cold heart thinking own country developed is high technology
24/11/23, 5:55 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
At that time our government offer them ShangriLa because a security forum is held there with all security in place.
But both president prefer to look at social media and choose Sentosa because that busybody say so.
24/11/23, 5:56 pm - +Jeffrey: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPz8r26BbLQ
JFK ordered troops home before the Vietnam war escalated under Lyndon Johnson (LBJ). Then JFK got assassinated, LBJ became president and the order was rescinded.
24/11/23, 5:58 pm - +Jeffrey: Then do you think it is a good thing that Trump and Kim met in Singapore?
24/11/23, 5:58 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
At least, it temporary defuse that nuclear war.
24/11/23, 5:59 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
But in future will humanity be so lucky?
I don't know.
24/11/23, 6:00 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
The nuclear war was defuse from the social media.
24/11/23, 6:01 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If we pulled down Tharman from world bodies - I think we are playing with fire.
24/11/23, 6:01 pm - +Jeffrey: I think Trump is unusual in that he met with Kim. Biden, I think he will fan more wars.
24/11/23, 6:01 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: Hahaha..
24/11/23, 6:02 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
24/11/23, 6:02 pm - +Jeffrey: Are the world bodies that Tharman are associated with even positive?
24/11/23, 6:03 pm - +Jeffrey: Could have put that to the vote. But I guess a majority of people do not care.
24/11/23, 6:04 pm - +Jeffrey: There are some differences between Tharman - international bodies and tin pei ling - grab, but a common theme here is conflict of interest.
24/11/23, 6:13 pm - +Rama: TPL should have sticked to selling handbags on Ebay!
24/11/23, 6:26 pm - +Jeffrey: If Tharman ever comes to a situation where his other interests and his role as president has a conflict, then we would not know what deliberations were behind his decisions. If we don't allow moonlighting, then this issue would have been debated out in the open instead of being inside the head of one person.
24/11/23, 6:27 pm - +Rama: Wow! So, allow ownself to check ownself!?
24/11/23, 6:28 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
A2/AD should be anti-access, area denial.
Type too fast.
24/11/23, 6:29 pm - +Jeffrey: What's worse is when a conflict is encountered, and no one else but him even knows about the conflict. That is the opposite of transparency.
24/11/23, 6:30 pm - +Rama: Yup
24/11/23, 6:34 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
World only listen to the voice of reasons.
Balanced, fair and just views - whoever the person is.
As long as his views make Sense and can defuse the situation, people will follow - whoever the person is.
24/11/23, 6:34 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Because leaders are also humans...
24/11/23, 6:35 pm - +Jeffrey: If there is silence, I don't know what to interpret of it.
24/11/23, 6:35 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If there is silence, listen to the heart.
24/11/23, 6:36 pm - +Jeffrey: If the finance minister is also consultant to a bank, then who does he answer to? Would we even know the conflicting agendas behind his decisions?
24/11/23, 6:39 pm - +Telephone number: Precisely
24/11/23, 6:40 pm - +KL: This remind me of the previous debate on hidden agenda :)) in the end I lost the debate :(
24/11/23, 6:41 pm - +~.@: time for a comeback
24/11/23, 6:41 pm - +Rama: Exactly!
24/11/23, 6:41 pm - +Telephone number: We all know the reason why this is so last minute and anyhow just passed through like that what a disappointment
24/11/23, 6:45 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
⏰ We will be closing the chat in *15 minutes* ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan 😊
24/11/23, 6:46 pm - +Ben: Yes, this is the sad thing... it's wrong and we all know it.
24/11/23, 6:46 pm - +Ben: I thought the high salary for ministers was to avoid this sort of thing?
24/11/23, 6:50 pm - +Rama: 🤷♂️side hustle no perks!?😳
24/11/23, 6:59 pm - +Smiley face: <Media omitted>
24/11/23, 7:00 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan 😊
24/11/23, 7:00 pm - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow only admins to send messages to this group
====
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