REACH 511 - What are your views on the motion on cost of living? How have you and those around you been impacted, and are there enough support measures to cushion the impact of rising cost of living?
(SK)
08 Nov 2023 (10am - 7pm)
REACH
8/11/23, 9:46 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
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8/11/23, 10:00 am - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
On Tuesday, Parliament debated a motion on the cost of living. "The Government hears you and understands your worries,” said Senior Minister of State for Finance Chee Hong Tat. “That’s why we have been doing more to support Singaporeans to cushion the impact of rising prices. We review our support regularly and step in to enhance it where necessary to provide additional support, especially for lower- and middle- income families.”
💬 *What are your views on the motion on cost of living? How have you and those around you been impacted, and are there enough support measures to cushion the impact of rising cost of living ?*
Inflation has peaked and is on a broad moderating path. On top of imported inflation, Singapore is also facing rising domestic costs with a tight labour market, low levels of unemployment and rising real wages for workers across the board.
“Fortunately, the impact of GST increase is one-off. It should not cause an ongoing increase in the CPI (Consumer Price Index) in future years.”
But the Government remains cautious because the global situation is uncertain, adding that further shocks to global energy and food prices could bring additional inflationary pressures and economic slowdown.
📌 _*Efforts by the Government*_
The Government has cushioned the impact of global inflation with a multi-pronged approach, with MAS also helping by strengthening the Singapore dollar.
Singapore also keeps its economy competitive to create good jobs and sustain real income growth for Singaporeans, he continued, noting that median real income grew by 1.8 per cent per year between 2017 and 2022.
The Government also ensures that basic needs like education, healthcare housing and public transport remain accessible and affordable for all.
“Everyone receives some help in these areas, but those with less receive more support. It is a fair and progressive system.”
📌 _*Support Measures*_
This includes means-tested U-Save utility rebates, the GST Voucher scheme and the Assurance Package, meant to offset the goods and services tax (GST) rate increase. The package has been enhanced twice since it was launched in 2022. The Government will continue to monitor trends closely and is prepared to do more to support Singaporeans should it become necessary, said SMS Chee.
MP Desmond Choo, who is also the assistant secretary-general of the NTUC trade union, added that FairPrice Group’s Pioneer Generation, Merdeka Generation and CHAS Blue discount schemes have brought about S$65.5 million worth of savings since 2015.
👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/house-debates-proposals-to-ease-cost-of-living-pressures-govt-stresses-it-will-do-more-if-needed
👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/cost-living-motion-wp-parliament-amendments-pap-3903981
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8/11/23, 10:08 am - +Rama: Chas cards with lower and low subsidies needed to be top up
8/11/23, 10:10 am - +Telephone number: Agreed!
8/11/23, 10:12 am - +Frankie Wee: Government stress coming 2024 more rising price level and cost of living affected Singapore 🤦
8/11/23, 10:13 am - +Frankie Wee: price rising plus GST 9%
8/11/23, 10:15 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: >“Fortunately, the impact of GST increase is one-off. It should not cause an ongoing increase in the CPI (Consumer Price Index) in future years.”
This is the kind of thinking that cause jokes to be made of our government. eg: give one drum stick, take whole chicken.
GST increase is a permanent increase. A burden that has to be shouldered for all time. All those GST vouchers etc are one time events. People's salaries don't go up and stay up permanently. After a couple of years, comes retirement. How does the gov support help retirees who need to figure out their stream of passive income? When world economy is hit, passive income goes down as well.
Secondly, the contents of the current CPI doesn't reflect the real cost of living in Singapore. It should be upgraded to measure things that people use: water, electricity, transport, eggs, rice, fruits, vegetables.
If gov is serious, they should stop GST increase for the time being. A 1% increase translate to 20% increase in real terms as vendors take the opportunity to jack up their prices as well parroting gov reasons for doing so.
8/11/23, 10:16 am - +KL: Use our sg tax revenue to strengthen currency but import more worker due to stronger currencies to displace local :) what a werid policies . Say fight inflation but where the inflation import from food or housing or investment ? Only say the real Income grow 1.8% is local family or non local family ?
8/11/23, 10:16 am - +KL: I thgt yesterday news say our real income is negative 4.5% ?
8/11/23, 10:16 am - +Rama: Exactly
8/11/23, 10:16 am - +Rama: Hugh!?
8/11/23, 10:17 am - +Frankie Wee: Balance level inflation vs cost of living. But I don’t know what is price level for 1.8%? Example I bought crack snack was $2 now $3 next years going up and up?
8/11/23, 10:18 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: Within 12+ months, price of eggs jump from $3.50 to $7.80
8/11/23, 10:18 am - +Frankie Wee: I think mean economy pressure keep on competitive markets
8/11/23, 10:19 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: The only thing good about our stronger currency is for us to start living outside of Singapore.
8/11/23, 10:19 am - +Frankie Wee: Government stress is it enough for reserve Singapore future?
8/11/23, 10:21 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: It's a fine line to draw which I also don't have answers to. It is important to have reserves for the future. But if the current people all die, there's also no future.
8/11/23, 10:22 am - +Frankie Wee: Minister salary cut push to GDP upper and save more reserve
8/11/23, 10:23 am - +Card: What !!!
8/11/23, 10:23 am - +Rama: Yes
8/11/23, 10:23 am - +Rama: 📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/share/v/W4EX4cvbZNyc3mUV/?mibextid=VswTDb
8/11/23, 10:24 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: i don't mind them getting their high salaries if they are able to lift the whole nation up. A work man is worth their wages. But making silly remarks like "GST increase is one off" 🙄
8/11/23, 10:25 am - +Rama: They should be subject to PWM just like the common man.
8/11/23, 10:26 am - +Frankie Wee: Government can’t read the future even they tender GST 9% enough then didn’t expect would come out cost of living is high than GST
8/11/23, 10:27 am - +Frankie Wee: Mean that GST 9% is not enough on budget day
8/11/23, 10:29 am - +Rama: Prepare for 10% GST after GE25
8/11/23, 10:30 am - +Frankie Wee: Yes possible
8/11/23, 10:33 am - +Rama: Expected 12% after GE26/27 .
8/11/23, 10:37 am - +Timothy Low: Agree that the increase of GST to 9% should be delayed for the time being, in view of the rising cost of living. Government should not be contributing to this problem
8/11/23, 10:38 am - +Frankie Wee: Govt want help more people low income those who earn $1.8k not enough and need help. But GST continues to rising
8/11/23, 10:41 am - +Rama: Government arguments is the subsidies are available to cushion.
8/11/23, 10:41 am - +Rama: They should earn at leastsgd2.5k
8/11/23, 10:54 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: Regarding CPI, I stand corrected.
https://www.singstat.gov.sg/-/media/files/news/cpisep23.ashx
They do include all the things that I mentioned.
Individual increase seems little, but when everything is added up, it becomes a heavy burden.
Reminds me when I was in school, each subject teacher say that they only give 1 or 2 pieces of homework to do. 7 subjects later, all free time spent doing homework.
8/11/23, 1:22 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
1. I will like to look at this cost of living topic at 2 levels:-
a. Micro-Economic level
b. Macro-Economic level
and how they impact us.
8/11/23, 1:44 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
*Micro-Economic level*
1. Honestly speaking, this current covid and post-covid pandemic, geopolitical tussle, impact of global warming and far-reaching regional wars --- have trigger an unprecedented runaway inflation rate - that far outrun our income growth - and even though it has come down from its peak, it still hover around 3 to 4% - and projected that it will come down to 2.5 to 3% come 2024.
But it is still higher than the inflation rate norm below 2.5% that we are accustomed to.
2. At personal level, the micro-economic level, the current inflation rate is indeed a pain to many household and individuals - not only to lower income and middle income group but also the upper income group - because the inflation cut across all economic goods and services (including luxurious goods) while imparing some income sources (eg. equities, big tech, etc) that reduce the wealth of upper income group.
3. Notably, the following essential needs that impact individuals and household go directly into the pockets of all income groups on a daily, weekly and monthly basis - unnerving the nerves of every individuals :--
a. Cooked foods - in hawker centres, coffeeshops, food courts, f&b, restaurants - prices are phenomena.
Last time, $3, $3.50 hawker centres and coffeeshops - individuals will get a decent meal. But now $4.50, $5, $6 and higher is a norm.
Multiply that by the number of family members in weekend (tabao) - a very big price jump for a household -- 50% to 100% price hike in food prices.
This cooked food items - is the biggest complain - as the lower and middle income groups very badly affected --- as people who work need to eat outside. Weekend meals whereby families don't cook - also a big burden to the household with such hefty jump in the very basic necessities --- FOOD.
8/11/23, 1:53 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
b. Electricity and water prices, transport cost
- Electricity, water is another basic necessities and we need to use it everyday.
- Despite keeping a close watch on their usage, electricity prices increase by 50% baseline against pre-pandemic open market electricity price plan upon contract end.
- Water prices also annouce increase in price recently.
- The same go for public transport price - which recently announce a price hike.
All these are again basic essentials that are used by individuals and households everyday, and transport are used by people who need to work, go schools and do business.
8/11/23, 2:00 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
8/11/23, 2:09 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
c. Healthcare cost
- Next come the healthcare cost, whereby if family have members (eg. elderly, disable) who need regular or frequent medical appointment and collect medication - the price increases in medication and consultation do impact the household pocket.
- When specialist attention in hospital are needed - the price increase can come to a hefty sum.
d. Electrical appliances and devices, shopping goods, luxurious goods, cars, travel etc
- These items, many non-essentials - will not become a main feature in lower and middle income group - out-of-pocket expense.
- As basic essential price hike, more income and savings are diverted to spend on basic essentials - and hence less focus are spend on these non-essential items.
- Hence, how the prices of these non-essential items move - is less critical for discussion.
8/11/23, 2:36 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
*Macro-Economic level*
1. Looking at the micro-economic aspect of individuals and household burden on the high inflation - we also need to look at the macro-economic intervention by the Government - on what measures are introduced to help Singaporeans cope with the current unprecedented high inflation.
_GST voucher and COL voucher_
1. Notably, the series of GST voucher and COL voucher - are the most direct cash payout to each individual and household to help every Singaporeans and household cope with all the price hike mention above.
2. Working through the COL calculator, taking the current imported price inflation + the 1% GST hike to 8% GST for this year, objectively :-
a. For Year 2023, my household and combined individual cash payout received is $6,120.
Year 2024 - $4,870
Year 2025 - $4,270
Year 2026 - $2,625
Year 2027 - $2,210
3. Honestly, in year 2023, my overall inflation or price hike is 9.82% from pre-pandemic.
4. For year 2023, the $6,120 fully cover my 9.82% inflation rate - and even have some saving.
5. For year 2024, not taking into account another GST hike of another 1% to 8%, it cover about 85% of my 9.82% inflation rate.
6. For year 2025, not taking into account another GST hike of another 1% to 8%, it cover about 80 to 83% of my 9.82% inflation rate.
7. Year 2026 to 2027 - barely cover 40% of my 9.82% inflation rate.
8. Hence, speaking honestly, I sustain no loss from the inflation + GST hike of 1% to 8% GST in 2023.
9. And I suffer little loss, come 2024 inflation, unless GST increase by another 1% to GST 9%.
But understand that the Minister of Finance are working to come out with another set of GST voucher to help Singaporeans cope with the additional GST hike of 1% to GST 9%.
10. Hence, I conclude that, let us wait for the announcement of the 2024 Fiscal Budget to see what additional financial help is announced for 2024 and beyond.
11. Based on my computation, year 2023 inflation and GST hike - no worries - in fact I got saving.
As for year 2024 and 2025 - don't seems to be a big problem yet - as the already announced GST voucher and COL voucher - have covered more than 80% of my inflation rate of 9.82% not including another GST hike of 1% in 2024.
12. I also do a quick computation for low income group - 1 room flat, those living in condo and those living in landed properties --- I noticed that all income level received quite generous financial help from the GST voucher and COL voucher.
Low and middle income groups received the most help for individuals and the household.
Even high income with dependencies like elderlies - also receive generous financial help.
13. So in macro level, for year 2023, 2024 and 2025 - the amount of financial help do help to cushion the inflation hike and the 2023 1% GST hike to GST 8%.
14. But come year 2024, with another 1% GST hike, the impact is not covered yet. And hopefully, we can hear good news from the Minister of Finance come year 2024.
8/11/23, 2:58 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
My only concern is :--
1. Will inflation at domestic level come down beyond 2024 - as food price, transport, healthcare, water prices, town council charges - once increase will be entrenched and will rarely come down.
2. Likewise, GST rate once increase to 9% will also be entrenched and will not come down.
3. This means, Singaporeans and residents will be entrenched, operate and live at a higher cost-of-livings come year 2024 and beyond -- whereby all prices of essential goods and services will hover and entrench at the current high price.
4. It means, Singaporeans and residents need higher income, higher salaries for working people to sustain the high cost of living - to ensure that expenses can be covered, standard of living can be sustained and savings for retirement will not be depleted (as higher savings will be needed to cope with the inflation).
5. Singaporeans and residents who are not working such as retirees, caregivers, school children, babies, homemakers, disabled - will be the most impacted - as they have to depend on passive income and savings to sustain the higher cost-of-living for essential goods and services.
6. The questions is - will Government have the fiscal budget to sustain the financial help to cater to all the income groups come year 2024 and beyond?
7. And how Government help every working individuals to improve their salaries and income to ensure the standard of living will be maintained and not let higher cost of living eat into our savings for retirement.
8. Government also need ways to help those unable to work for various reason to cope with the higher cost of living.
8/11/23, 3:09 pm - +Smiley face: 8 November, 2023
"Inflation is the number one enemy"
Money not enough?
Minimal help or overlapping or under serving?
The number one enemy of the poor and the underprivileged is inflation.
8/11/23, 3:10 pm - +Frankie Wee: Try to ease costs affective
8/11/23, 3:11 pm - +Smiley face: Through interventions such as govt Subsidies on essential goods such as food from rice, meats, vegetables and milk/milk powder.
The next is to identify the clusters of people to give to, meaningfully.
8/11/23, 3:12 pm - +Smiley face: More than 70% of households will afford and are able to fight this common enemy, inflation!
8/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Rama: I hope so
8/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Smiley face: It will be a prolonged war against this stubborn enemy!
8/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Rama: Yes
8/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Smiley face: Sure, based on data!
8/11/23, 3:14 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
_Take on additional GST hike by another 1% to GST 9%_
1. My take on additional GST hike by another 1% in 2024 - is to proceed with the GST hike.
2. There is no reason to hold back the hike, because the tax structure needs to be sustainable - as many government expenditure are planned for - taking into account the additional GST 9% as one of the government income source.
3. Else the essential government expenditure will go haywire - if the GST hike that have been planned for is delay come 2024.
4. I will support additional GST voucher and COL voucher to cushion the GST hike come 2024 and beyond, the reasons being:-
a. The GST hike will only hit the big spenders - notably the ultra rich and the very rich - that can afford to spend on big ticket items such as houses, luxurious goods and services, yacht, expensive cars, etc - where Government can collect a hefty GST revenue from these wealthy spenders who are earning good income.
b. The GST hike to GST 9% will hardly impact low, income and even some upper income groups - as the GST voucher and COL voucher will negate and neutralise not only the GST hike but also cover the inflation --- based on the computation in 2023, and a good 80% or more in 2024 and 2025.
This is not taking into account a likely additional GST and COL voucher to be announced in Year 2024 Budget.
c. I only concern what happen after year 2025?
Will our Government fiscal budget be able to continue to sustain such payout after year 2025 to help the various income groups - lower, middle and upper income groups?
8/11/23, 3:18 pm - +Smiley face: <Media omitted>
8/11/23, 3:26 pm - +Smiley face: Securing jobs and creating jobs both are counter inflationary measures and buffering any economic disruptions.
Jobs retrenchment will be more prevalent into 2024-25.
8/11/23, 4:01 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
My close friend comments:-
Prices will not come down.
So the discussion should focus on people living below subsistence levels and those at risk of falling below the line.
I really mean subsistence levels not about discussing whether one needs his perfume and jewellery.
Plus how to have enough for retirement
8/11/23, 4:04 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
8/11/23, 4:18 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
1. Another thing is, I disagree with WP approach to keeping the cost-of-living down - because it look good on paper (a populist approach in its optics to make people happy) but it will cause fiscal budget sustainability problem.
2. By meddling with the tax structure (that is, meddling with the revenue system that impact the revenue source) - it will jack up the cost of revenue collection, cause uncertainty in revenue amount earn and reduce the final revenue collection to finance government expenditure and financial grants (eg. GST voucher and COL voucher) to help each income groups - lower, middle and upper income groups.
3. Eg. WP proposed tier pricing of utilities, nationalisation of transport :-
a. Tiered pricing of electricity
- Lower, middle income group don't use alot of electricity in their 1 room to 5 room flat.
- The biggest electricity users are business, upper income group that switch on aircon, bigger houses.
- By implementing tiered electricity come with the following problems :-
i. The tracking electricity usage in peak, off peak, charges for the various tiers become complex and cumbersome to manage - and translated to higher cost, more errors and billing become very complex.
Thus revenue collection for the government - will go down with the unnecessary high cost of administration.
ii. The higher revenue collection come from business and rich income group - but tier pricing will favour them - and reduce revenue collection for the government.
iii. Encouraging individual, household and business users to be prudent in electricity usage - should be a separate exercise - immaterial to the cumbersome tier pricing - that cause more problems than its benefits.
Regardless of peak or off-peak - if possible, users are encourage to be prudent in electricity usage - and the cost of electricity bill will push users to be prudent - without the unmanageable and cumbersome tiered pricing.
b. Tiered water pricing
- The same argument above applies to Tiered water pricing.
4. Similar to business, no businessman or owner of the right mind to meddle with their customers and revenue sources - and make their sales and revenue difficult to collect and compute.
It will cause the business to make loss and lose their customers.
5. Only after the Government and Business collected their revenue - at the end of the year or fiscal budget, how much to help the people in terms of GST voucher or COL voucher or for business, how much salaries increment or bonus to pay their workers.
6. WP propose meddling of the tax structure and revenue source - is a sure way to make Singapore fiscal budget unsustainable - and go along the less successful Countries - in to using debt to finance the government expenditure.
Likewise, no boss or business owners will mess around with the sales and revenue sources - by paying upfront high salaries and bonus without even knowing whether they make profit at the end of the year - and mass retrenchment will be the end of the day.
8/11/23, 4:21 pm - +Rama: I hope the electorate is not stupid to buy their nonsense at every election
8/11/23, 4:26 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
1. Another aspect that I disagree with WP proposal to nationalise the public transport --- is as good as saying, use taxpayers money to finance the day-to-day running of the public transport --- like the old communist countries way of State run enterprises of financing public goods and services.
2. Many Communist countries have already move away from nationalising the public goods and services eg. China, Vietnam and other East European countries - because it is inefficient and taxpayers money got to finance the inefficient way of running the public transport.
3. In addition, enterprise cannot go overseas to bid for foreign business such as the comfort delgro, SMRT, etc to earn foreign revenue if public transport is state run.
4. After collecting tax revenue and then subsidise the transport expenditure like what the current government is doing make more sense - without :-
a. tie down with day-to-day running of public transport which is inefficient.
b. use taxpayer money to run the public transport business
c. losing the foreign revenue - as state enterprise cannot bid for overseas public transport tender.
8/11/23, 4:37 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
I am very sure of one thing, if WP ever become the government:-
1. Government will run into debts.
2. Our reserves will be depleted.
3. Economy performance will go down.
Because many of their proposed policies are mistakes make by many countries that cause their countries to go into debts, inefficiencies and job doldrums.
8/11/23, 4:38 pm - +Uncle Law: Gov should pay attention at merchants who may take advantage of situations to raise price, citing increasing costs, which may not be in the first place.
8/11/23, 4:39 pm - +Coconut Tree: This I would disagree.
Nothing wrong with Nationalizing basic goods such as Water, Electricity and Transport.
We already Nationalized housing.
Some things, the government doesn't need to make money from.
Rent/Relentless profit seeking behaviour of privatised services is not a good thing.
8/11/23, 4:39 pm - +Frankie Wee: Wise vote to be minister big money spent mistake lend into debt
8/11/23, 4:41 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Yah, that is what communist countries did in nationalising many public goods and services like north Korea.
See what happens?
Why many communist countries have stopped nationalising their public goods and services?
8/11/23, 4:42 pm - +Coconut Tree: strawman arguement leh.
I can point to the same failure of privatised inefficient systems in the USA
8/11/23, 4:43 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Also HDB is the only nationalised products because government want to ensure everyone have a roof.
But more than $5 billion a year thrown in from taxpayers money.
Are you going to pay higher GST to pay for more public goods.
8/11/23, 4:44 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Where will the government get the money from if everything nationalised?
8/11/23, 4:44 pm - +Coconut Tree: You are assuming Publicly operated ultilites will be more expensive to run than Private
8/11/23, 4:44 pm - +Coconut Tree: given how lean our CS is, quite a bold assumption
8/11/23, 4:45 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Where you get the money from to nationalise - taxpayers money you know
8/11/23, 4:45 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If not wp cough out the money to run nationalised good is it?
8/11/23, 4:47 pm - +Coconut Tree: Good point here. Can be slowly done.
But hor - pls - I dun like the WP any more than you.
Just believe that not everything should be privatised.
The new law governing the appointment of key positions in sensitive positions is a good move. imho.
8/11/23, 4:47 pm - +Coconut Tree: Especially Things like powergen, water, transport.
8/11/23, 4:47 pm - +Uncle Law: agreed
8/11/23, 4:48 pm - +Coconut Tree: Power Distri/sales - sure. but not PowerGen.
8/11/23, 4:48 pm - +Frankie Wee: Think money is easy life bring new government when run politicians but things is more harder than thinker
8/11/23, 4:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Privatised means shareholders and investor money.
Nationalised means taxpayers money.
If nationalised where to get the money?
More GST, more income tax, use reserves?
8/11/23, 4:49 pm - +Coconut Tree: I think if the WP makes 10 areguments, I disagree with 9. This is 1 of the rare ones that makes a bit of sense.
8/11/23, 4:49 pm - +Frankie Wee: Learned from Malaysia hard life and retire bomb they are hard earning
8/11/23, 4:50 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
No it doesn't make sense.
1st address where to get the money to nationalise?
8/11/23, 4:50 pm - +Coconut Tree: Key assets should not be held outside the control of the country.
8/11/23, 4:50 pm - +Frankie Wee: Money come from our productive
8/11/23, 4:52 pm - +Coconut Tree: Slowly. Powergen quite Simple.
We are running into Nett power shortage.
Govt build new generators. Stop giving license for new operators.
After a while most gen capacity owned by PUB.
Money comes from selling power to grid and consumers. The same way the private sector does it.
8/11/23, 4:52 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Yes that will be our money, taxpayers money.
So it means we pay higher taxes to nationalise all the public goods?
8/11/23, 4:52 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Our stock exchange public companies are more than a trillion $.
Tax to get trillion dollars to nationalise?
8/11/23, 4:53 pm - +Coconut Tree: Water in SG is right now partly PPP. should still maintain this model.
8/11/23, 4:53 pm - +Coconut Tree: Transport is the tricky one. Not sure there.
8/11/23, 4:53 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
And then charge low feed to users
Make loss, incur debt.
Bankrupt?
8/11/23, 4:53 pm - +Coconut Tree: But if you bother to think about it, power is easy.
8/11/23, 4:54 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
This is what happens to many state run companies in communist countries.
Now all privatised.
8/11/23, 4:54 pm - +Coconut Tree: Same strawman arguement leh.
Look at how expensive and shitty the private services are provided in the states first
8/11/23, 4:55 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
So you still haven't answer the question - where you get trillions of dollars to nationalise?
8/11/23, 4:55 pm - +Coconut Tree: I have enough faith in our CS that they can execute this properly
8/11/23, 4:55 pm - +Coconut Tree: this?
8/11/23, 4:55 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Who is this cs?
8/11/23, 4:55 pm - +Coconut Tree: Civil Service
8/11/23, 4:55 pm - +Frankie Wee: Govt want to redevelop the future in Asia economy whenever there is challenges
8/11/23, 4:56 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Civil service has come to the conclusion that nationalisation is the good thing to privatised since 1980s.
8/11/23, 4:56 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://www.straitstimes.com/business/more-companies-in-asia-including-s-pore-headed-for-bankruptcy-and-restructuring
8/11/23, 4:57 pm - +Coconut Tree: ,this is one of GCT's most fugged up idea ever
8/11/23, 4:58 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
The best idea ever.
Else Singapore won't be the richest per capita GDP in the world.
8/11/23, 4:59 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
"Taiwan ranks 12th in list of 'Top 20 Richest Countries'.
Insider Monkey includes Taiwan on list of richest countries based upon GDP per capita".
Singapore rank 1st.
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/5031445#:~:text=Taiwan%20ranks%2012th%20in,upon%20GDP%20per%20capita
8/11/23, 4:59 pm - +Coconut Tree: Your logic is amazing as always
8/11/23, 4:59 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Oh yes certainly.
8/11/23, 4:59 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Because your logic will doom our country's future.
8/11/23, 5:00 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
And outcomes speak loudest then words
8/11/23, 5:00 pm - +Coconut Tree: wayn
8/11/23, 5:00 pm - +Coconut Tree: yawb
8/11/23, 5:00 pm - +Coconut Tree: yawn
8/11/23, 5:01 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Good that you yawn.
8/11/23, 5:01 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Must as well you join n Korea - everything nationalised.
8/11/23, 5:02 pm - +Coconut Tree: Go to the USA and see what a mess relentless pursuit of your logic makes a country lah
8/11/23, 5:02 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Vietnam economy fly - because they junk nationalisation and now they are best performing developing nation.
8/11/23, 5:02 pm - +Coconut Tree: HAHAHAHAHAHA
8/11/23, 5:02 pm - +Coconut Tree: ROFLOL
8/11/23, 5:03 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Oh Singapore per Capita GDP beat US.
Double fold. <This message was edited>
8/11/23, 5:03 pm - +Coconut Tree: vietnam's largest private sector company is a fraud. ARE YOU REALLY USING THEM AS AN EXAMPLE!
8/11/23, 5:03 pm - +Coconut Tree: OMFG
8/11/23, 5:03 pm - +Coconut Tree: HILARIOUS
8/11/23, 5:04 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
8/11/23, 5:04 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
You still evade the question, where do you get the trillion dollars to nationalise?
Taxpayers money?
8/11/23, 5:05 pm - +Coconut Tree: hello how many times you want me to point this to you?
8/11/23, 5:05 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If you can't answer all your arguments fall apart.
8/11/23, 5:05 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Where the money?
8/11/23, 5:06 pm - +Coconut Tree: hwo difficult is it to issue like a bond to progressively build infrasture and pay it off using the sales proceeds of power?
do you really need this explained to you?
8/11/23, 5:07 pm - +Frankie Wee: Singapore dollars note who create this money come from?
It’s history self made
8/11/23, 5:07 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Hahahaha..
You think investors stupid want to buy bonds that have no profit.
Issuing bonds is another way of saying using debt to finance.
8/11/23, 5:08 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
You are trying to fool people .
8/11/23, 5:09 pm - +Frankie Wee: How about would you like invest T-Bills or bond funds so you know where money from
8/11/23, 5:09 pm - +Coconut Tree: lol. it's really sad to be you
8/11/23, 5:10 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
https://www.ft.com/content/7dada684-a6cd-413b-9adb-477b34a7a9f6
8/11/23, 5:11 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Yes you are using debt to finance nationalisation.
And all future generations will inherit a big debt like US.
See US treasury bonds - the debt is too high, no investors is subscribing
8/11/23, 5:12 pm - +Frankie Wee: Because of FED wanted hike to repay US debt to feed
8/11/23, 5:12 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
You are trying to trick people to use debt to nationalise - and future generations pay their nose through.
So be very careful of what he say and what WP say.
8/11/23, 5:13 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
It is a debt trap that this chap and WP want us to fall into.
8/11/23, 5:14 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Else suddenly with nationalisation - we will inherit trillion of debts - to be paid by our future generations.
8/11/23, 5:15 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
8/11/23, 5:16 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
This is what US future generations got to pay $26.3 trillion debt - from bonds.
Be careful of such people and political party like WP.
8/11/23, 5:16 pm - +Joseph Yap: Rising cost of living arising from external factors such as rising fuel costs, supply chain issues or global shortage of food/ raw material are beyond our control. What we can work on is the rising cost of living arising from local asset inflation (eg. speculative forces that inflate commercial property prices which in turn translate into higher rental costs of commercial spaces), of which this will increase our price of daily expenses in coffeeshops, fruit stores, hair saloon and etc.
8/11/23, 5:17 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
8/11/23, 5:18 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
See nationalisation and state run enterprises - $47.5 trillion debt.
8/11/23, 5:19 pm - +Jerick: Definitely not trillions... Our country is not as big as the US. And it's just the public transport system that we're talking about. So just millions.
And actually, Singapore might actually save money from its nationalisation, thru economies of scale
8/11/23, 5:19 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
You all want to see Singapore inherit trillion dollars debt just because you want nationalisation?
And it don't solve the cost of living problem?
Because we need to pay high tax to finance the debt?
It is kicking the problem down the road to future generations.
8/11/23, 5:19 pm - +jerick: Not trillions
8/11/23, 5:20 pm - +jerick: Just millions. And we might actually save money
8/11/23, 5:21 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
How much you build MRT, how much you build power plant, water plants - million $ really?
An sme already 5 to 10 millions.
8/11/23, 5:21 pm - +jerick: I think there's no point in us arguing about how much money will be spent or saved until we settle the figures
8/11/23, 5:21 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
How much HDB build houses? Millions really?
1 flat cost 1 million.
8/11/23, 5:21 pm - +Frankie Wee: US and China future economy will collapse more debt treasury
8/11/23, 5:22 pm - +Frankie Wee: Asia can’t lend more money
8/11/23, 5:22 pm - +jerick: Don't need to build new ones. Nationalize doesn't mean that we have to build everything from scratch
8/11/23, 5:22 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
A wrong macro economic policies - and financial policies - will make Singapore go bankrupt in no time.
8/11/23, 5:23 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Unless you are a minister or HDB ceo.
Unless you understand how to run a ministry or stat board.
Else I don't believe what you say.
8/11/23, 5:24 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Because we have been in thick of involving in the nationalisation and privatisation process - and we know exactly what is going on.
8/11/23, 5:25 pm - +Rama: Yes
8/11/23, 5:26 pm - +Rama: No choice but to pay
8/11/23, 5:27 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
In a many conversion exercise, we have gone through this.
All the arguments cannot stand water - domestically and overseas life examples prove nationalisation is a big mistake.
8/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Rama: 😳🤷♂️
8/11/23, 5:27 pm - +jerick: Singapore's budget for all ministries is only a few billion
8/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Frankie Wee: Will not know how long at least housing bubble or crisis when down price. Because keep the market very strong
8/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Frankie Wee: Policies will not change
8/11/23, 5:28 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Like what I say, unless you are directly involved in the exercise, I don't believe you.
8/11/23, 5:28 pm - +jerick: We don't need to be in these positions to do the math. Just research and calculate
8/11/23, 5:28 pm - +jerick: Info is available online
8/11/23, 5:29 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Oh yes the math, computations and all the past outcomes domestically as well as many examples overseas - draw the conclusion that nationalisation is a dead end.
8/11/23, 5:29 pm - +jerick: You're able to retrieve info on US. Surely you can find info on Singapore
8/11/23, 5:29 pm - +jerick: Not necessary. Gotta take them case by case
8/11/23, 5:30 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
I think I want to stop debating this.
If you think is so good, why n Korea is the only country standing?
You can pick them as examples.
8/11/23, 5:31 pm - +jerick: Ok let's stop then🙏🏼
8/11/23, 5:31 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Oh yes, from telecoms, to MRT, to power, to IT, to banks like posb to DBS etc.
You can interview the exMinister and perm sec - to give you a lecture.
8/11/23, 5:32 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If LKY is around, he will be a very good lecturer.
8/11/23, 5:32 pm - +Rama: Yes
8/11/23, 5:42 pm - +jerick: Btw, I'm not taking any sides @6597656103. Just wanted to iron out the details so that we can discuss more meaningfully. I think that regardless of who we're speaking with, whether LKY or our next-door neighbor, if their facts don't seem right, we should sound them out
8/11/23, 5:43 pm - +jerick: Only then can we arrive together at a good solution
8/11/23, 5:44 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Civil service, and Minister cabinet - from 1G to 4G study in detail and arrive at this conclusion.
Hence Singaporeans has the :-
1. Highest GDP per capita in the world.
2. One of the highest reserves in the World.
3. And a magnet of business hubs.
8/11/23, 5:45 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
"Goodbye HK, hello S’pore: More global firms shifting staff, operations despite city’s efforts to retain them".
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/more-global-firms-quietly-shifting-out-of-hong-kong-as-city-tries-to-lure-them-back#:~:text=Goodbye%20HK%2C%20hello%20S%E2%80%99pore%3A%20More%20global%20firms%20shifting%20staff%2C%20operations%20despite%20city%E2%80%99s%20efforts%20to%20retain%20them
8/11/23, 5:48 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
And I don't believe what WP say - go back to nationalisation - which is in our 1970s.
Our wealth has become the 1st in the world when we get all our economics right.
Definitely not what WP say - nationalisation, use bond debt to finance nationalisation?
8/11/23, 5:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Like asking the knowledge of 1970s telling a successful 2023 what to do - to go back to the old ways...
8/11/23, 5:49 pm - +Frankie Wee: WP thinks the way to help cheaper and affordable
8/11/23, 5:50 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Yah, but put us into debt.
8/11/23, 5:52 pm - +Frankie Wee: I have no clue with WP such the move toward the future can’t change. Let said 1990 is lowest level when LKY alive he know policies no change but everything developed is changed.
8/11/23, 5:53 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
We are on the right track.
Going backwards will make our future generations suffer.
8/11/23, 5:56 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
When the population is poor, government has to pool resources to nationalise.
But the moment everything is on track, nationalisation will drag down the economy and the earning of the people as tax needs to keep going up to finance the nationalisation.
Hence privatisation is the only way to go.
When government earn sufficient revenue, it can help people without the burden of high tax policy.
Also this will attract investors to invest, further boosting our economy. <This message was edited>
8/11/23, 5:58 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
High tax structure will push away investors who create jobs for the people.
Hence we cannot let nationalisation drag down our economy.
WP has no economy fundamental to formulate workable policies.
They will only fool people and cause problems down the road with their short sighted vision.
Sigh....
And we have so many gullible people around.
8/11/23, 6:00 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
8/11/23, 6:33 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Also all our GLCs go for the world market and bring us tremendous revenue that beef up our reserves in Temasek Holdings contributing to multiple billions of dollars to finance our fiscal budget in nirc.
Imagine all our GLCs nationalise to cater to our little tiny of 5.6 million people instead of the world 9 billion people.
Do you think Temasek revenue will fall into the million or make loss instead of multi billions earning?
In addition, government got to levy high tax to finance the nationalisation?
Or worst smart Alec say issue bonds - means debt to finance nationalisation.
Nationalising will bring us triple whammy - and from highest earning in the world - we drop into a poverty state.
8/11/23, 6:35 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
That is why I am fuming about this WP proposal.
It is populist.
It bring financial suffering to us.
It is short sighted to look good to win votes - but condemn our future generations to suffer.
It fool many gullible people - without economic fundamentals.
8/11/23, 6:35 pm - +Rama: We cannot nationalise like a communist country!
8/11/23, 6:36 pm - +Rama: Blady hopeless potential opposition party!
8/11/23, 6:36 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
I don't get angry for nothing.
But this WP proposal really make me angry.
8/11/23, 6:36 pm - +Rama: Agree
8/11/23, 6:37 pm - +Frankie Wee: Vote them out
8/11/23, 6:37 pm - +Rama: Give back their wards to the PAP.
8/11/23, 6:37 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
And even want to trap people into debts - issuing bonds wor.
Just look at US bond debt and China bond debt.
It is addictive and will kill our nation.
8/11/23, 6:39 pm - +Rama: Another moron is Lim Tean! Asking for similar move like in Malaysia to allow citizens to withdraw their efforts during the three years of covid-19 and thereby draining rm145billion!
8/11/23, 6:43 pm - +Redzuan: Aiyoh must must have PAP n WP is this chat. ??
8/11/23, 6:43 pm - +Frankie Wee: Malaysia own country EPF
Singapore is CPF
We can’t withdraw
8/11/23, 6:44 pm - +Frankie Wee: Malaysia suffer retire time bomb
8/11/23, 6:44 pm - +Redzuan: The generation ahead now is why this and that?
8/11/23, 6:45 pm - +Redzuan: i believe the current govt has Data n statistics must answer these queries..
8/11/23, 6:45 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
⏰ We will be closing the chat in *15 minutes* ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan 😊
8/11/23, 6:51 pm - +Rama: Good move by government for our benefits in our old age
8/11/23, 6:59 pm - +Smiley face: 8 November, 2023
"Inflation is the number one enemy"
Money not enough? Minimal help or overlapping or under serving?
The number one enemy of the poor and the underprivileged is inflation.
Government agencies and specifically MSF, MOH, MPs with SSO, FSC and, NPOs all are helping the vulnerable households and individuals whether they are out of jobs, permanently disabled or young children, adults and seniors.
The essence of goodness is to first report & identify cases, second to classify the targeted areas of help and third to engage these individuals and households over a period of time to ensure services are provided for or services to be increased or decreased or ceased for whatsoever reasons feedback through social workers or NPOs visitations and assessments of each actual case.
In summary, to simply say that our public and private initiatives are doing not enough and often enough members of the public tend to be emotional which is understandable to seek on behalf of society to query on the effectiveness and efficiency of our system of social well-being. It's never enough, these social services but one thing is sure that is helps are abundance and the next best thing is to enable early identifications of needy cases ahead of all miseries and sufferings. And that's a goodness of a caring society whereby no one is left alone to burden it all as a nation aged faster and the size and scale of social services and sufferings will naturally progress to a new high.
- - in progress - -
8/11/23, 7:00 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan 😊
8/11/23, 7:00 pm - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow only admins to send messages to this group
===
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