REACH 393 - What are your views on the Government’s response to the incident? 

(SK)

05 Sep 2022 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:48 am, 05/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

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[10:03 am, 05/09/2022] +REACH: 📢Topic📢

Olympic champion Joseph Schooling and multiple South-east Asian Games gold medallist Amanda Lim are determined to make amends after they were investigated by the Central Narcotics Bureau (CNB) for possible offences related to the consumption of cannabis.

Minister K Shanmugam called on Singaporeans to be gracious to Joseph Schooling and Amanda Lim, and to "give them our support and backing". Mr Shanmugam added that the pair had not received any preferential treatment.

💬 What are your views on the Government’s response to the incident? 

 Schooling was also issued a formal letter of warning, and will no longer be eligible for leave or disruption to train or compete while in NS.

Minister Edwin Tong, who is also Second Minister for Law, said drug consumption is not condoned here, and Singapore has a very strong stance against it. He added: "But at the same time, I think Singaporeans have displayed a lot of empathy, a lot of support, care and concern for the well-being of the swimmers themselves, who have come out and taken responsibility. "They now want to rehabilitate. I think we need to give them space for that, and support them on their journey."

Separately, Sport Singapore (SportSG) said that Lim had received a stern warning from CNB under the Misuse of Drugs Act. It added that it would "thoroughly review the circumstances behind these cases, and determine the appropriate steps to be taken thereafter".

👉🏼https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/joseph-schooling-amanda-lim-cannabis-shanmugam-edwin-tong-2913171

👉🏼https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/swimming-joseph-schooling-and-amanda-lim-admit-to-drug-use

👉🏼https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/community/schooling-lim-determined-to-make-amends-for-drug-use-edwin-tong

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[10:08 am, 05/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Gov holds a very high standard in maintaining discipline and law. I'm sure investigation would have been done in the most integrity way.

Gov is being open about the whole incident rather than keep it hush hush.

[10:33 am, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: They are both extremely talented sports people who work hard and became great role models. They are also human. Joseph didn't actually break the law, as I understand. Not quite sure why he admitted what he did. Glad to see Gov taking a mature approach to this. He hurt no one and tried something and probably found it wasn't for him. I think he can be an even greater role model now, and be someone who can kids can relate to. He can learn from his experience and by walking away from cannabis shows its something not worth sacrificing your life for.

[10:41 am, 05/09/2022] +RH: As a side comment, I wud like to say tt while I am aware of the intended purpose of issuing the new Work Pass for high income earners to attract talent to SG, 

I am against having their spouses and/or family members being ' allowed to work freely' here , when they bring their family over. 

Can the Gov pls clarify the rationale for this Double standard again?

These foreign family members shd tow the line and flw our local laws.

If we r alredi having a labour crunch here, how does allowing foreign nationals who  presumably hv similar skillsets as our locals, to work here solve the problem?   They wud be competing w our local workforce for the same pie, while their main breadwinner - the one earning the big bucks & approved to work here - is supposed to be training up our local workforce to enable our locals to move up and fill similar job positions, presumably 2 years later,  after these big shots leave.

Ther seems to be a neverending loop on this .

Employ highly paid foreign talent --> train our locals (supposedly we r still short of local talent ???) 

--> these foreign nationals bring their families over -->

--> these family members are allowed to work here ??? 

--> 2 years later, the foreign national gets his work pass extended, family also stays + family members now competing w local workforce for same jobs, increasing labour crunch

--> wat happened to those locals they train? Aren't they good enuff to assume the roles they were trained for?

--> We shd take a leaf out of employment  policies from other countries.

Last I checked, countries like Australia, UK , only allow foreign labour to fill their country's local job vacancies for which their locals cannot do.

Their companies need to show proof tt this is the case before being allowed to employ the foreign national.

Family members of foreign nationals employed into said countries are not allowed to work in the country - period.

We shd implement similar checks and rules on family members of the approved foreign talent.

Otherwise, it is another case of cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Whoever came up w this rule (allowing the spouses, family members of such foreign nationals to work freely here) isn't thinking properly.

U r creating another problem while solving one! 

😳

[10:58 am, 05/09/2022] +Rama: Agree

[11:05 am, 05/09/2022] +Sunshine Pooh: +1

[11:06 am, 05/09/2022] +Sunshine Pooh: How many of the said foreign talents are acutally taining our locals? not all information sharing is done and that is why the FT's Work Pass continues.

[11:07 am, 05/09/2022] +Valli: I would also like to highlight some of the misuse by foreigners on 

1) student pass visa, where spouses or relatives are brought into Singapore after successfully getting their student visa with the pretext of doing online learning/ forge documents from institutions.  And during this period  they somehow successfully get their PR status , and then start getting a job and stay here for the long term. 

Is there any tracking or regular follow up with submission of documents to validate their study status? 

And in the case of female spouse who gets pregnant during this period of student pass period. 

There are many loopholes that some agencies or foreigners are finding ways to bring their relatives in with forge documents.

[11:14 am, 05/09/2022] +RH: Also, Gov shd insist tt a company shows absolute proof tt such foreign talent is necessary , only after the company has exhausted all other avenues of recruitment, meaning ...

1. Have they sourced for local talent?

From within? 

From without?

2. If local talent has some potential, can they offer training to groom the individual? 

3. Wat timeframe hv they set for this to be achieved?

4. How are they investing into the future to groom talent tt they need, while they get a foreign talent to plug the gap in the meantime ?

5. Do they offer OJT or JIT or other avenues of training new local talent to take over ?

[11:19 am, 05/09/2022] +RH: The Gov has come up w many recommendations to improve local work recruitment but I hv yet to hear or see tt these hv bn successfully implemented or picked up by the companies here.

Wher are the checks and monitoring to see those recommendations r seriously adopted by companies and followed thru?

To keep on saying we nd foreign talent is like saying we are not good enough to do the job ourselves ??!! 😳

It is always an easy avenue to just pluck someone from overseas as training needs time and investment.

I wud question the operational ethics of the company ... Is their manpower planning so bad tt they can't look inwards first ?

[11:19 am, 05/09/2022] +Uncle Law: They should be put on community hours

[0:58 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: 5 September, 2022

To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members

"One plus One, Foreign Talent and Family (一加一)"

Background:

One hot and pursuing needs of all developed nations, in today's world, is getting as many  talents from all over the world that will benefit it's economies both internally and externally.

These talents can be single unmarried or (LGBT+) or married childless or with children age ranging from new born to youth that will attend schools in the host country.

Binds or Blindspots -

There are bound to have Blindspots that need to be addressed by policymakers to clarify with local citizens whom are anxious to new change of immigration rules especially those who felt been compromised or feeling uncomfortable over the future of employments or worries about the high chances of  competitively displaced by these incoming talents when current or future job opportunities are concern, the next thing to consider is how employers (SMEs and MNCs) mindset are what are the critical deciders when choosing a candidate for a job opening, putting aside MOM rules?

There will be it is a matter of fine-tuning any potential Blindspots or aka loopholes.

Perhaps, there is need to reassess the criteria and rules for incoming foreign talents, more importantly, their accompany spouse regardless of same gender, childless or with children as an entity, this family unit.

Any visitors from extended family members, relatives or friends shall be treated as visitors on a 30 days visa. This host family shall undertakes all responsibilities from medical expenses, lodging other than  the official home address in Singapore and visitors to abide by all ICA and MOM regulations.

The issuance of stay period for spouse and children will mirror the talent's period of approved stay.  Children can either attend international schools or MOE schools paying full tuition fees and pre-admission assessment tests by the school of choice.

Spouse of foreign Talent (SFT)-

Spouse who are seeking for employment prior entering to Singapore or thereafter residing in Singapore will be classified as additional working spouse (SFT) of this entity. There will be a checklist of requirements to fulfill before an employment is confirmed between an employer and a SFT.

ICA, MOM and ACRA will have to verify documents, CV and interviewing the applicant to assess if there is good reasons for he or she to supplement the family income. 

The SFT must proof previously past 10 years of employment history, salary and income taxes paid in various countries or home country or exceptional skills that meet and contribute to our local economies specifically proving their talent and skills identifiable to an economic sector. 

Employer-

Local employer will have to show a need to employ the Spouse of this foreign talent (SFT). The annual minimum basic salary scale will be $150,000.00 and employer will pay a levy of 5% based on the basic pay.

The above are additional rules to consider besides the existing regulations by ICA and MOM.

    - - in progress - -

[1:43 pm, 05/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

A few salient points emerge from the 2 swimmers drug consumption overseas saga.

1. Singaporeans generally are intolerant of drug abuse in Singapore - because it destroy lives and families through addiction.

2. However, there must be 2 approaches to drug trafficking and drug consumption.

3. For drug traffickers that bring drugs into Singapore for profit and destroy Singaporeans and residents lives --- our attitude towards drug trafficking must be of "zero tolerance" including capital punishment to deter trafficking of drugs into our shores.

4. For drug consumption, it must comprise the following attributes to prevent and deter drug consumption and ensure drug abusers will stop drug abuse:-

a. Punishment - drug consumption don't pay and it come with punishment

b. Rehabilitation - drug abusers must be repentance - admitting drug abuse is wrong, determination never to take drug thereafter, wanted to rehabilitate, wanted to reintegrate into the Society

c. Monitoring - regular monitoring of drug rehabilitators to ensure the ex-drug abusers have been successfully rehabilitated and no longer consume drugs.

5. For these 2 swimmers, Schooling and Amanda, there are few points that are worth taken into consideration when meting out redress for their drug consumption overseas during the Games :-

a. Both consume drugs overseas - which is one-off - instead of regular consumption of drugs - and no addiction are detected.

b. Both test negative for drugs when coming home - via urine test.

c. Both admitted taking drugs to the Authority - despite tested negative for drug consumption - and apologise to the public.

d. Both express willingness to be rehabilitated and express determination not to take drugs in future.

e. Both have done Singapore proud, by winning medals for Singapore in many overseas swimming competition.

6. Given all the above mitigation measures, their honesty to admit their mistake, and their desire to rehabilitate, I felt that the punishment and measures meted out appropriate - in the spirit of "yellow ribbon".

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[1:54 pm, 05/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. However, there is a worrying trend emerging overseas in many Countries - whereby drugs such as cannabis and other drugs - have been pushed by drug companies to be legalised as medical drugs, recreational drugs - to be consumed freely by the public with restriction.

2. As a result, some overseas  Countries like Thailand, companies have been lacing drugs into unsuspicious tibidts, food, drinks etc - as ingredients to boost their sales on their foods and drinks - through drug addiction.

3. This development is greatly disturbing as Singaporeans and Singapore residents could be travelling to Thailand and overseas Countries that have liberalised drugs consumption as legal --- and could have unwittingly consume tibidts, food and drinks - that are lace with drugs and get addicted.

Our army boys are trained in Thailand, business travel there for business, Singaporeans and residents often travel up to Thailand for tours ---- and will unwittingly buy tibidts, foods and drinks for consumption ---- and the worrying part is, it could be lace with drugs.

4. Under such circumstances, wonder what will be Singapore's position in managing such drug consumption unwittingly consume by Singaporeans and residents --- and then tested positive for drugs in their return to Singapore?

---

[1:57 pm, 05/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: Without restriction.

[2:00 pm, 05/09/2022] +REACH: 📢Topic📢

Olympic champion Joseph Schooling and multiple South-east Asian Games gold medallist Amanda Lim are determined to make amends after they were investigated by the Central Narcotics Bureau (CNB) for possible offences related to the consumption of cannabis.

Minister K Shanmugam called on Singaporeans to be gracious to Joseph Schooling and Amanda Lim, and to "give them our support and backing". Mr Shanmugam added that the pair had not received any preferential treatment.

💬 What are your views on the Government’s response to the incident? 

 Schooling was also issued a formal letter of warning, and will no longer be eligible for leave or disruption to train or compete while in NS.

Minister Edwin Tong, who is also Second Minister for Law, said drug …

[2:27 pm, 05/09/2022] +Boon: Agreed! Lets be gracious and not be morally righteous.

[2:30 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: Good question. If someone has drugs abroad without knowing or unintentionally, what happens if they test positive on return to Singapore?

[2:31 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: I don't think anyone would get addicted after being 'spiked' one time. And if laced with drugs they would defintely know about it and should be able to report the incident.

[3:06 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: 5 September, 2022

To: Our Sports Leaders and All Honorable Members

"Luck boys and Lucky Girls"

Historical Background:

Turn back the clock, decades, anyone caught consuming illegal drugs will be sentenced to rehab center or prison (SANA). For a NSman or a regular SAF man/woman, a policeman/police woman or a Fireman, their sentencing will be harsher compared to members of the public. For instance, should a NSman found to consume and/or in-possession of illegal drugs not amounting to Capital punishment will be charged in the Military court (to take orders, dropped rank and rank of Private during trial) presided by high ranking officers and the CO of that unit. A minimum of two months or longer in military prison (Dentention Barrack) will be imposed on off…

[3:13 pm, 05/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

On another matter, notice that some people will be uncomfortable to see BTO flats prices in some areas much higher than others.

Eg. AMK bto 5 room price at $877,000.

While other areas, 5 room flats price at $400,000 plus.

Suggest that for BTO flats at prime area or waterfront - BTO should be rename as BTO(Premium) or BTO(Prime).

While the traditional BTO should remain as BTO.

This will ensure that people will not get a shock when a BTO flats in some areas are price close to a million dollars as opposed to other BTO flats - accusing the government as profiteering in selling the HDB flats - and make the flats unaffordable to the young couples raising a family.

[3:25 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Danny, add on to your good points...

Can we rename Flats to APARTMENTS?

Commentary:

To give a balanced argument on the notion of profiteering, one should also see the concepts of opportunity costs and allocation of resources.

These HDB projects with it BTO or SERS. They are the benchmarks of basic affordable housing and a larger context of the entire eco system of housing valuations. It is a consequential equation, one low will cause the next to become lower.

When aging and retirement comes, these APARTMENTS will be our buffer to weather through thick and thin of our late life stations.

Quotes:

"don't sell away your flats sooner...'", once advised by our MM Lee.

[3:27 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: Singapore housing deemed ‘relatively affordable’ in Asia-Pacific: report 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/real-estate/singapore-housing-deemed-relatively-affordable-in-asia-pacific-report

The Republic has the highest homeownership rate of nearly 90 per cent, due to the low cost of Housing Development Board (HDB) units, which have a median price of US$379,283. Private homes with a median price of US$1.13 million represent less than 20 per cent of the total housing stock.

That being said, Singapore’s non-HDB homes are the most expensive to rent in the region with a median monthly rent of US$2,046. This is followed by US$1,895 for Sydney houses.

When measured on a rent-to-income ratio basis, Hong Kong is the most expensive city for rental, with monthly ren…

[3:33 pm, 05/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Basically managing people's expectations during the BTO ballots is important.

If put BTO - people expect traditional hdb flat prices - to buy a house to raise their family for young couples - as they set aside budget to do so.

When $877,000 is offer as a price - most people will fall off the chair - as they far exceeds people's expectations and budget.

Hence if label as BTO (Premium) or BTO (Prime) - young couples that ballot for the BTO knows they are the flats build in the prime lands - that will far exceeds their budgets.

[3:50 pm, 05/09/2022] +JC: I think SG government should relax their rules on drug consumption outside of SG jurisdiction - especially for cannabis given that it has already been legalized in many other countries for medicinal and recreational use. 

Based on our recent NDP Rally... I don't suppose our govt want to keep too many laws on the books that are anachronistic and unenforceable right? :D

[4:00 pm, 05/09/2022] +REACH: 📢Topic📢

Olympic champion Joseph Schooling and multiple South-east Asian Games gold medallist Amanda Lim are determined to make amends after they were investigated by the Central Narcotics Bureau (CNB) for possible offences related to the consumption of cannabis.

Minister K Shanmugam called on Singaporeans to be gracious to Joseph Schooling and Amanda Lim, and to "give them our support and backing". Mr Shanmugam added that the pair had not received any preferential treatment.

💬 What are your views on the Government’s response to the incident? 

 Schooling was also issued a formal letter of warning, and will no longer be eligible for leave or disruption to train or compete while in NS.

Minister Edwin Tong, who is also Second Minister for Law, said drug …

[5:16 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: The law is based on a urine test in SG, because technically that means the person is in possession. It's not, as I was told, about consumption. Please correct this if that is not true.

[5:17 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: Related - I do think we should review NS rules for people who have a short career that depends on their availability between their ages of 15 - 25

[5:18 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: Singapore Sports talent is severely limited for Men due to NS requirements. If someone has a professional career in Sport, or some other stringent criteria, why don't we issue a long term deferral until they are say 40?

[5:19 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: It would only apply to a tiny number of people, and they would still get to do their NS, just later when they sporting career is over.

[5:22 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: They could do their NS and bring years of professional sporting experience with them, and be a huge inspiration for the recruits!

[5:33 pm, 05/09/2022] +Eunice Chia: is National Service confined to Military service?   Can our sportsmen and women serve their National Service in sports?  or arts?  

I remember a pianist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvyn_Tan and of course, some controversy surrounding Kevin Kwan, https://sg.news.yahoo.com/crazy-rich-asians-author-kevin-kwan-wanted-singapore-defaulting-national-service-report-071444674.html

[5:34 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi L, good points.

Current reserve obligations for non officers (NCO) ORD at 45 yrs or earlier depends on the reservists in-camp (low and high) key deployments.

For Officers, it  stretches to 50 yrs old.

Exceptions, like what you have suggested,  for our local talents should include all spectrum of talents. 

Then the next thing is to list of  approved talents to defer NS for no longer than say 4 years (counting from enlistment date?).

There will come a need to differentiate privileges and entitlements?

[5:36 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Eunice,

Yes, there is a sports arm in the SAF, likewise for the music and drama section for the musically and artistically talented.

[5:37 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: I think you're probably right. I identify sports because it is so age dependent. There is controversy now because some talented footballers are having their dreams taken away because despite being identified as a talent, they cannot pursue their goal (pun intended) due to NS requirements.

[5:38 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: Good progressive thinking! People can serve their country in many ways.

[5:40 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: Policymakers will need to carefully QUANTIFY AND QUALIFY short listed talents.

There is also a need to weigh Privileges vs Entitlements to derive a fair and equal outcome for not only the talented more importantly the larger contingent of NSMen.

"All for one and One for all."

[5:42 pm, 05/09/2022] +L or Locker or BL: Yes agreed - there would need to be a contribution given back by those who reap benefits! Imagine Singapore FC qualifying for the World Cup, and those players one day enlisting to do their NS, and what they would be able to offer.

[5:49 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: One suggestion for PROMISING boys who qualified to study in overseas prestigious universities (top 5) under any of the discipline STEM.

Regardless of the boy self sponsoring or received a scholarship from our government or elsewhere.

These bright boys should be able to delay their NS obligation no more than 4 years.

Only under extreme exceptions, boys turned young men whom qualified and highly recommended by the universities to pursue PhDs should also be allowed to defer.

One clause is to serve 3 months yearly and COME HOME to work for a SINGAPORE company for 3 years before thinking of relocating to elsewhere for other career advancement or opportunities.

[5:53 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: It is of paramount importance that fresh knowledge from JCs especially Maths and Sciences be not delayed over 2 years for it may disadvantage  these Bright STEM boys !

There is a need to aspire and nurture in every ways and little means for the chance of our future, our Noble Prize winners?

[5:55 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: "never says never, think positively and the possibilities, that's meaningful...?"

[6:00 pm, 05/09/2022] +REACH: 📢Topic📢

Olympic champion Joseph Schooling and multiple South-east Asian Games gold medallist Amanda Lim are determined to make amends after they were investigated by the Central Narcotics Bureau (CNB) for possible offences related to the consumption of cannabis.

Minister K Shanmugam called on Singaporeans to be gracious to Joseph Schooling and Amanda Lim, and to "give them our support and backing". Mr Shanmugam added that the pair had not received any preferential treatment.

💬 What are your views on the Government’s response to the incident? 

 Schooling was also issued a formal letter of warning, and will no longer be eligible for leave or disruption to train or compete while in NS.

Minister Edwin Tong, who is also Second Minister for Law, said drug …

[6:01 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: Who are the Big Whale of knowledge and Higher Learnings?

MIT

Harvard

Princeton

Stanford

Brown

Oxford

Cambridge

Imperial 

UCL

Tokyo U

Beijing U

European Universities in Netherlands, Paris and Barcelona

[6:30 pm, 05/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. In my personal opinion, drug abuse - whether drug trafficking or drug consumption - whether done locally or overseas - cannot be tolerated.

2. Drug traffficking is very clear - our law will not tolerate drug trafficking - using harsh law including capital punishment.

3. Drug consumption - has now become more complicated.

a. Drug consumption - to get addicted for self gratification.

- For this scenario, the law is very clear - whether done locally or overseas - we don't tolerate drug abuse and will meted out punishment as per the law.

b. With many Countries liberalising drugs and getting drug legalised for medical and recreational drugs --- there is a real danger that business will lace food, tibidts and drinks with drugs - and tourists like us may unknowingly consume the drugs while taking tibidts, foods and drings lace with drugs.

Hence, I urge the Government to relook at how to tackle such drug consumption problem - whereby Singaporeans and residents are against drug consumption - but fall into the trap unknowingly through laced food, tibidts and drinks.

If urine test or hair test - detected Singaporeans and residents have drug consumption - a thorough and foolproof lie detectors or interrogation technique - need to ascertain the drug consumers are indeed fool by laced food or drinks - and not knowingly consume drugs for addiction or self gratification.

Under this categories, help should be granted to ensure the person is not addicted and monitor to ensure addiction will not kicks in.

Punishment or penalty should be waived for this category of people.

3. Singapore cannot afford to go soft on drug abuse - as our people is our only resource to keep our Nation going.

Drug addiction - is a sure way to bring our Nation down.

[6:45 pm, 05/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

[6:54 pm, 05/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Advisories should also be published - to ensure tourists, Singaporeans and residents not to bring in any food, drinks or tibidts that could be lace with drugs. The best is don't bring in anything if not sure.

[7:00 pm, 05/09/2022] +Smiley face: 5 September, 2022

"Party Drugs and Weekends Drugs"

Why?

Is Stress a driver to try drugs or peer pressure or curiosity or  prior experienced?  Party drugs aka socializing drugs like ICE to Grass are common among young adults all over big cities of the world. The needs to release stress, feeling free and out of the world feelings when these drugs effects kicked it.

Who?

They maybe young professionals including lawyers, doctors, academia, sports people and youth. These are pockets of drugs users whom may be addicted or starting to crave for it or once in a blue moon user.

Where?

Closed door private parties in condominium or private house, on any day of the week with Thursday to Saturday as prime days of consuming these 'light' party drugs.

What?

It is common these days that these drugs users go overseas to party and try all sorts of drugs that are available in that locale. What can our local enforcement agency do to discourage the use of drugs and the danger of overdosing that leads to brain damage or death?

          - - End - -

[7:00 pm, 05/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

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