REACH 399 - What are your views on Singapore's Healthier SG strategy to better manage the health of our aging population? How else can society work together to ensure affordable and quality healthcare for our seniors and those in need?

(SK)

28 Sep 2022 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:59 am, 28/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

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The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

[10:01 am, 28/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

Under the Singapore's Healthier SG strategy, residents ages 60 and above would be invited to enroll with a primary care clinic of their choice as soon as the 2nd half of 2023. Citizens will get fully subsided national health screenings and vaccinations at enrolled clinic. All residents can use more from MediSave for chronic conditions, with cash copayment requirement removed.

💬 What are your views on Singapore's Healthier SG strategy to better manage the health of our aging population? How else can society work together to ensure affordable and quality healthcare for our seniors and those in need?

Speaking at the 14th National Medical Excellence Awards (NMEA) Ceremony, Health Minister Ong Ye Kung shared details on the Healthier SG initiative, for our 3 healthcare clusters (NUHS, NHG and SingHealth) to step up as Regional Health Managers and improve their care for residents under their charge. He added that the clusters would have increased funding to cater for more preventive care initiatives.

Minister Ong explained that the Ministry of Health (MOH) would have to work with our healthcare clusters to take a 'strategic, holistic and system-level perspective' to improve the health of Singapore's population. Under the initiative, the Government would be able to link point of care data with community health data, and using research to identify 'social determinants of health' to draw insights on effective social interventions for better health.

👉 https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/speech-by-mr-ong-ye-kung-minister-for-health-at-the-national-medical-excellence-awards-2022-26-september-8.00pm

👉 https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/white-paper-on-healthier-sg

👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/healthiersg-regional-health-manager-healthcare-cluster-nuhs-nhg-singhealth-2965946

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[10:03 am, 28/09/2022] +L or BL: Prevention is better than cure. Annual health checks, twice annual for those at risk. Can we make this affordable at scale? Can we use tech to mass scan the population, eg AI image based diagnosis to identify possible risks to be highlighted to Dr's.

[10:04 am, 28/09/2022] +Rama: Agree

[10:14 am, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: S'pore's population ageing rapidly: Nearly 1 in 5 citizens is 65 years and older

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singapores-population-ageing-rapidly-184-of-citizens-are-65-years-and-older

"By 2030, around one in four citizens, or 23.8 per cent, will be aged 65 and above."

[10:42 am, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: 28 September, 2022

To: Our Distinguished Leaders, Health Care Experts and All Honorable Members

"Working Against Time (保证和保健计划)"

"Treating a Patient is a zero sum game, either cure or not so or no! Caring for a Patient is a humanistic skill, importantly, CARE is the driver of a winning formula!"

- - annoymous

Targets:

It takes time to fine tuning our medical competency to a higher level of exceptional service.

If by 2030, 1/4 of our citizens will reach 65 years old (older for some). Let's target to enable (placement) this noble idea of personalized doctoring services starting 2025 onwards. It means we will capture our First batch of 60 years old citizens into 'early placement' this early medical interventions aka Healthier SG.

One key enabler is to identify up to 10 (or 20) most common chronic or recurring illnesses within our aeging population.

MOH has the historical data to turn and chunk these valuable medical data into AI to better focus on our deployments of medical, monetary and expertise resource. It will be a work-in-progress, a continuous data mining to achieve up to 95% confidence.

Recalling the concept of the "learning curve "cost model, hopefully in shorter time, we will  emerge out of this learning process with a higher penetration rates and adoption rates. Importantly as a whole, a successful implementation of this Healthier SG!

     - - in progress - -

[11:55 am, 28/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your views on Singapore's Healthier SG strategy to better manage the health of our aging population? How else can society work together to ensure affordable and quality healthcare for our seniors and those in need?

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan 😊

[0:01 pm, 28/09/2022] +Caleb: can consider TCM doctors also? or how TCM can compliment it? 

especially the elderly

[0:01 pm, 28/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: By the year 2030 our CPF retire enough or not if not enough can we continue older work or not if not work can we live without foods of not.

[0:02 pm, 28/09/2022] +Caleb: Or people who prefer to see TCM then western doctors.

[0:02 pm, 28/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: 2030 GST increase more or not then what we should age 65?

[0:37 pm, 28/09/2022] +jimmy chew: Interesting quotes by anonymous. Who is anonymous?

[0:53 pm, 28/09/2022] +Rama: Exactly!?

[0:53 pm, 28/09/2022] +Rama: Fighter jets escort SIA plane to Changi Airport after passenger claims he has bomb in bag:: https://www.asiaone.com/singapore/fighter-jets-escort-sia-plane-changi-airport-after-passenger-claims-he-has-bomb-bag?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=addtoany

[1:58 pm, 28/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your views on Singapore's Healthier SG strategy to better manage the health of our aging population? How else can society work together to ensure affordable and quality healthcare for our seniors and those in need?

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan 😊

[2:00 pm, 28/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

Under the Singapore's Healthier SG strategy, residents ages 60 and above would be invited to enroll with a primary care clinic of their choice as soon as the 2nd half of 2023. Citizens will get fully subsided national health screenings and vaccinations at enrolled clinic. All residents can use more from MediSave for chronic conditions, with cash copayment requirement removed.

💬 What are your views on Singapore's Healthier SG strategy to better manage the health of our aging population? How else can society work together to ensure affordable and quality healthcare for our seniors and those in need?

Speaking at the 14th National Medical Excellence Awards (NMEA) Ceremony, Health Minister Ong Ye Kung shared details on the Healthier SG initiative,…

[2:23 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: 28 September, 2022

"An Enabling Health Care Ecosystem"

Backgrounds:

WHO assessed that the world is currently short of 9 millions or more nurses. In Asia alone, the wide spread,  doctor and patients ratio from 77 one per thousand (Qatar) and 1 per five thousands (Cambodia). 

Given a tight fitting ratio of doctors-patients-nurses scenario coupled with a medical system 'loosing' medical staffs to other countries. Try to visualize an ecosystem whereby patients are provided with early detections, medications and/or treatments to faster heal their illnesses? Is it important to plan ahead or a mindset of staying the same? 

A person's health can be a sudden disruption to his or her family, when in multiple cases, it will become a social, economics and medical challenges. Isn't it wise to plan for "just in case" than doing the usual ways and wait for illnesses to arrive? Prevention is one of the keys (one chance) towards a healthier and prolonged lifespan!

Finally, what does the world learned from the Covid pandemic? One surest thing of all is never allow any calamity to compromise a health care system which is never enough prepared for any unforeseeable medical emergency!

    - - in progress - -

[2:26 pm, 28/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Health screening is an important proactive strategy to monitor the health of the people and if detected any anomaly in health conditions can take early actions to treat the illness early - and result in better recovery.

2. Notice that health screenings are conducted by Government agencies, GLCs, MNCs and big Enterprises for their staff --- to ensure a healty workforce - where healthy workers are productive workers.

Except that SMEs will not have such health screening scheme for their staff - due to financial constraints.

3. Seniors are more susceptible to health issues - and health screenings become all the more important to detect health anomaly - and can provide treatment early or do preventive healthcare for better recovery.

4. Seniors are predominantly retirees that live on their savings. Hence financial assistance to make health screenings affordable will make seniors more willing to go for the screenings. Notably :-

a. fully subsidised national health screening subsidy - could mean seniors paying a small and affordable amount.

b. Allow using Medisave for chronic conditions without need for cash co-payment - will relieve many seniors of precious cash to buy food and other needies.

5. Making medical data available for polyclinics and private clinics - will make medical care more holistic - as seniors will sometime need to see not only polyclinics doctors but also private doctors nearby their neighborhood.

6. Better tie up between private doctors with polyclinic doctors and even specialists in public hospitals --- will help to provide a more rounded comprehensive to the seniors - as private doctors can refer seniors to specialists in public hospitals or need to use the laboratory facilities in polyclinics when necessary.

7. Medication costs in private doctors if comparable to polyclinics will also be helpful to seniors - if seniors have problem travelling further distance to polyclincs - as seniors can get the medicine at the same price and quantities from the private doctors at the neighborhood private doctors.

[2:39 pm, 28/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. I particularly like the idea of assigning a Regional Health Manager to manage and monitor the health of each seniors to ensure the health screenings and subsequent treatment are adequate - and will help the seniors to improve their health and well beings.

2. Regional Health Manager can intervene if seniors need further specialist treatment - but hold back because of cost or fear of more specialised treatment.

3. This will ensure seniors get all the necessary treatment needed - get well and live a healty fruitful golden age.

[2:58 pm, 28/09/2022] +RH: About time !!

Good initiative.

As this discussion clashes w my work timing, I can only comment now tt I esp like the incentives u hv thot of for the family doctors in points #9 & #10 under Family Doctor.

This wl help ensure tt our Primary care taker is also well looked after.

[3:02 pm, 28/09/2022] +Rama: Will the cost follow as referral from Polyclinic all the way up to specialist and hospitalisation!?

[3:05 pm, 28/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Don't know.

I think the cost now only cover the health screenings - not specialists treatment.

[3:08 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: 28 September, 2022

How can we afford, attract and CARE for all seniors to adopt to this Healthier SG?

Not more than $20 per GP visit with medicines or no more than $10 just for buying medications.

For Specialist consultations, up to $50 inclusive of medicine and consultation.

Additional Scan or Biopsy not exceeding $50 per service.

Do we need 'means' test OR 'all for one' approach, that is so long you are 65 yrs old, you will entitle to these privileged and heavily subsidised medical cares?

[3:08 pm, 28/09/2022] +Rama: A clearer picture is needed before implementation.

[3:12 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: For our vulnerables, can they tap on CDAC, MUIS, SINDA or Eurasian funds or other 'huay kuan-assiciation' for fundings?

[3:12 pm, 28/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Health screenings refer to:-

1. Lab blood test

2. Test high blood pressure, ecg eg got heart problem, strokes etc

3. Sugar level eg. Diabetes

4. Cholesterol levels

Etc

Give medications if got such problems.

If other conditions - more specialised test will need to be conducted, or even refer to specialists.

Not sure if the fully subsidised cost cover this or not.

[3:13 pm, 28/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Err they don’t have so much money… 😅 

If not how to run other operations to keep the community? 

Help the poor is not their key focus

[3:13 pm, 28/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Culturing the young and future generations

[3:14 pm, 28/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Who we are

CDAC is a non-profit self-help group for the Chinese community.

We offer programmes and assistance schemes to help the less privileged in the community to maximise their potential and strive for social mobility through self-help and mutual support.

[3:14 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: A concern is, one major and prolonged illness will blow one's medisave away. 

Assuming this person does not buy extra medical insurance like a 'rider' program be which can be out of reach for many retired seniors.

[3:15 pm, 28/09/2022] +Ken Loh: The problem is many don’t have the ability to plan for future. Hence end up in the loop. 

We can try to assist them, and this will be a increasing expense as our population grow older

[3:16 pm, 28/09/2022] +Ken Loh: The new MediShield suppose to reduce the need to tax on tax payer for the additional funding

[3:16 pm, 28/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Keeping them healthy for those that still can.. would be better prevention then helping them pay for future bills

[3:18 pm, 28/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Pek Kio have some elderly help program I think it is quite useful in keeping them constantly engage. See them having to talk to their peers and interact we can do more of that as well

[3:21 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Ken, Good afternoon!

One disabler is income and years of low wages to start off with.

This person CPF and medisave will be limited too.

Having spoken with an elderly, she has spoken about her working history from 1980s (young woman) to today (senior). Her low wages did not help much in today's situation. So much so candidly she laughed and said, "better off die than in sickbed 死比生病好"

That's life to many...

[3:30 pm, 28/09/2022] +Ken Loh: There is many social program behind the scenes.. 

I try help like old man on the streets. Which got cheated of CPF money. To be frank if they buy house last time they would all be done ok. 

There are many people that did wrong finance choices or illness that drain them of their finances. There is a limit to how much we can help. 

Every funding we use to help, will in turn lesser for future generations. Covid we had spend a lot to help the whole Singapore. 

We are not a welfare state hence we all know rather die than fall sick. Human is our best resource, ensure the population is healthy to contribute in whatever way they can will go a long way. 

There is no silver bullet that can solved all this issue. Empathy is key, but how we fund it? Those that refuse to work when they can and now just beg for handouts? I don’t assume all are like that. But still money don’t comes from trees 🤦🏻‍♂️

[4:04 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: "Empathy has no pre-condition, anymore is a test!"

- - annoymous

[4:05 pm, 28/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

Under the Singapore's Healthier SG strategy, residents ages 60 and above would be invited to enroll with a primary care clinic of their choice as soon as the 2nd half of 2023. Citizens will get fully subsided national health screenings and vaccinations at enrolled clinic. All residents can use more from MediSave for chronic conditions, with cash copayment requirement removed.

💬 What are your views on Singapore's Healthier SG strategy to better manage the health of our aging population? How else can society work together to ensure affordable and quality healthcare for our seniors and those in need?

Speaking at the 14th National Medical Excellence Awards (NMEA) Ceremony, Health Minister Ong Ye Kung shared details on the Healthier SG initiative,…

[4:08 pm, 28/09/2022] +jimmy chew: It's a wonderful idea. It's been 12 years since I left my company. I have yet to find a community Doctor as good as my company doctor. If my company Doctor is level 10 then the doctors I met so far are level 3 to 6 in terms of care, knowledge and professionalism

[5:01 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: 28 September, 2022

"Waiting time and Time Wasted节省时间或减少排队"

"Queueing is a process, is a division, is a multiplier, it can also be manufactured. Time is a ticking (variations) algorithm in sync with the process"

- - annoymous

Pre-conditiions:

Patients can be Singaporeans, PRs or Foreigners and medical service fees vary for each status.

What's the waiting time to see a Specialist? Assuming a person health condition is not too serious (means no urgent ops needed) and he or she is classified as 'C class' patient.

What if another person is classified as 'A or B class' patient, what's his or her waiting time to see a Specialist likely be?

Is it a 'class' based queue system or first come first serve system or is it based on medical seriousness or needs? What are the current level of protocols for consultation, testing or treatment?

Conditions:

One systemic improvement (queue) regardless of any queue methods is to shorten these waiting time for all category of patients. How to find smarter ways to reduce these 'time consuming' queues, restructuring of appointments/cases (repeat or unique or similar) and cost?         

     - - in progress - -

[5:05 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Andrew, thank you for sharing this fact sheet.

Capacity building in progress. That's good!

As for renumeration, cost of procurement would be lowered too. Thanks to CECA!

[5:05 pm, 28/09/2022] +Rama: Hope for the best

[5:08 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: It will become, rest assured!

[5:10 pm, 28/09/2022] +Rama: As per mediacorp news last night, our population is aeging much faster than predicted!

[5:14 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: 28 September, 2022

"Where are the ROOTS, aka problems..."

- - annoymous

Problem with ops management aka 'queue' theory for medical services model. It is a life vs death business!

Based on past knowledge from MIT ops mgt, there should be a provision of 10% slack or variations cater to emergency and many one-off medical situations that require faster interventions.

In summary, medical ops mgt is a different ball game day from manufacturing or service provider. It's all about efficiency...

(More details if anyone interested to implement or assess it's current business model)

[5:21 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Which quotes?

[5:32 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Funding is a valid point, and cost control effort is another area for sustainability. Medicine bulk purchase, tapping into the local high education resources on system integration planning and design, treatment process re-engineering, etc., Telemedical are able to sustain the sghealth initiative. My recent visit to the national dentist center and Sengkang hospital impressed me as they adopted technology for efficiency. The same can be adopted by the GP clinics, starting with data integration and treatment process reengineering.

[5:35 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: With tech adoption, the goal of more with less can be achieved in theory in health care; the gap between the projection target and the real target is due to the project being implanted for a short-term or long-term goal.

[5:38 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: In digitization of healthcare, the more community partners onboard the same system (data lake), the cost per unit for data will be reduced and benefit the all parties, e.g maintenance cost for GP clinics is low and future planned Upgrade would be sustainable.

[5:40 pm, 28/09/2022] +65 9226 2477: Has it been considered... Having a nodal based distribution of triage centers around the island or as some say telemedical video call where first touch point for patients are quickly met and thereafter depending on the seriousness of their condition, they are redirected to the various specialists. GPs should naturally assume this role but the distribution of patients aren't equal thus leading to disparate waiting times.

[5:40 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: However, the project team needs to consider the defense in depth of securing the data and network and leverage this opportunity for the smart nation initiation and compliance with regulations

[5:42 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: The majority of the population wear fitness wearable, and the information on these watches can be linked to the system, reducing the waiting hours for clinical test

[5:43 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Based on mathematical equation translated into words, hopefully it spells the full meaning...

[5:44 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Good, one possible synchronicity!

[5:45 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Once, I read an article related to an MD practicing in the USA. She mentioned that these type of routine detail should be syn realtime to the dashboard in front of her computer before she treats the patient

[5:45 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Bit, byte can equals n or integers, odd and even numbers aka as 'n'..... finite or infinite...

[5:45 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Another synchronisation... very good idea.. thank you!

[5:46 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Repetitive can means similar type category aka as sickness or symptoms

[5:47 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: One off means unique situation or medical case requires further attention, means more time needed.

[5:48 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Off peak and peak and intermittent is another paradigm, each is a queue sequencing!

[5:48 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Last time I saw the doctor vs patient ration is 2.5:1000, will this 60 doctors per year is for replenishment or new hire?

[5:49 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: It is paramount to identify these paradigms, each and work towards executing an ops plan or system.

[5:50 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: I don't think the cost will be cheap, a doctor with experience commanded the market rate. They are able to practicing in European if I m not wrong.

[5:50 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Ours is 2.3 per 1000 patients case...one excursion is the degree of difficulty and complexity aka Specialists!

OECD figures

[5:51 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: It takes up to 10 years of exposures to gain competency...like 'talented' doctors...

'Gifted' Doctors are different dimensional beings! Aka lucky touch!

[5:53 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Life and death.... what's cost if saving lifes matter most or simply let it go?

[5:54 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Some patients with cholesterol, currently, if I m correct that they, still need to go hospital/clinic to see a doctor to obtain the same medication after 90 -180 days. Is this process really necessary if telemedical is deployed? Can the doctor see these patients after the usual 5pm time after the clinic/hospital shuts its door? This is one of the process reengineering I m referring to.

[5:55 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: One , is our sample size is 6 millions (Including medical tourists)...the data needed to stack up into AI data will be a challenge. Unless there is collaboration with neighboring countries of similar ethnicities?

[5:56 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Great insights, Hi SL.

Using Teledoc for repetitive activities aka as mild cases!

Thank you!

[5:58 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: It is depended on the doctor's experience to judge the sickness of a patient with input from machine clinic test results.

[6:00 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Ratio and costing.

Given one imported GP working at polyclinic daily.

60 patients per daily, that's 1200 cases.

As for the salary, let's say is $12,000 for a starter and basic package.

What's the cost per patient excluding the generic medicines?

[6:01 pm, 28/09/2022] +XaniceAfcai: To have a better manage of health for ageing population.

1. Promote healthy life style living.

a. Exercise to keep fit organised by cc/rc/community

b. Eating healthily starts with less oil, less sugar, salt etc.

C. Doc checkup regularly. Aka health screening.

D. Focus on preventative of health management

-> hence, Healthcare systems need to offer a range of services to meet senior needs, focusing on preventive care, long-term care, and care for chronic conditions.

More professional is required.

2. Improve health care system to support mental/physical emotional of well being

3. Care options eg TCM, train more caregivers, nursing home, social workers, welfare community

4. Retirement options

a. Oldies can contribute their work experience and talent by Working part time, doing  flexible work hrs or as a consultant to the company.

b. can re deploy via job training

5.Modernize insurance

6.

[6:02 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: No, AI is not part of the picture yet. These are solely data warehousing and integration to facilitate doctors deciding the treatment. Humans are still the main component in this clinical system. 

On the other hand, if AI and ML are to be deployed, they will lighten doctor and nurse jobs by providing initial assessments and proposing to doctors the best medical treatment.

[6:04 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Each county's population may have a different disease. It doesn't need to use that extent of data set to train an AI

[6:05 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: I don't understand why huge dataset is required, based on our current medical case and community input for the past 20-50 years, didn’t it sufficient to train one system? 🤔

[6:06 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Lack of variations, depth and length...

Collaborate with neighboring countries for data...

[6:07 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Exhausted Data...

[6:07 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: A to D maybe can be handle by community partners, leveraging on their expertise as part of smart nation

[6:09 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Regional and international collaboration may require new regulations and treaties to be signed. Not a low-hanging fruit yet, I would say.

[6:09 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Medical insurance cost will escalate, it will become an affordability issue sooner than later...

[6:09 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: A few reluctants are privacy, religion and race....

[6:10 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: I think we all experience when visiting a clinic that the rate for the insured patient and self-sponsor patient rated are diff.

[6:11 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Going forward, insurance premium will go up... there are reasons to these uppings!

[6:11 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Privacy and data security are significant bottlenecks to resolve. It will take a very long time to agree.

[6:14 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: China not a good sample simply their medical protocols, medications and procedures aren't the same compared to Malaysia or Indonesia.

Google may be able to 'help'?'

[6:14 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Ask Google to 'help'...

[6:17 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: I m seeing this is a major initiative from.govt to help Singaporeans manage the cost of medical bills. Healthier SG not only awakens us in thinking about how we can maintain healthier and enlightens us in a discussion on how we can help each other as Singapore is our home. We like to see it prosper in the future. Healthier SG is also going to push forward the smart nation significantly.

[6:18 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Google? I don't understand. China's medical protocol is diff as compared to the rest of western medical treatment

[6:19 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Better have a defense in depth and trust no one framework in data safeguarding

[6:20 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Cancer treatments for example are different, that's an extreme example...

Tropical vs Temperate conditions

[6:20 pm, 28/09/2022] +Rama: My feeling is for both

[6:20 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Wow, what is the math equation?

[6:20 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Thanks

[6:22 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: https://www.moh.gov.sg/resources-statistics/singapore-health-facts/health-manpower

2.5 in 2019, not sure about 2020-2021 ratio

[6:25 pm, 28/09/2022] +Rama: Photos of man who allegedly made bomb threat on SIA flight & fighter plane escort circulate online

https://sg.news/?p=872515

[6:26 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Dubai have 2.9:1000 doctor to patient ratio

[6:26 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: https://gulfnews.com/uae/health/dubai-logs-high-doctor-resident-ratio-says-dha-report-1.2273853

[6:27 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: In 2017

[6:32 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi SL, one part of the equation for transformation...

[6:33 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Thanks lot

[6:35 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Complete set of transformation required 6 others formula as a compact ops solution or a RESET of an existing ops plan...

Our PM and Min Chan will be both ideal person to crack these into small bits!

In finding Key ops solution, small bites always win...

[6:36 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Plus DPM Wong, his econometrics skills....

[6:38 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Actually, telemedical can happen @ patient home. Patients do not need to leave their house to see doctor

[6:39 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: A baseline treatment protocol in play...

[6:39 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: 👏👏Start with low hanging fruit

[6:39 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: PM is a gifted Mathematician, fyi...

[6:45 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Simple one useful for many scenarios... clinic to polyclinic, Q1 and Q2 , so on

[6:45 pm, 28/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

[6:45 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Use it on currency war too...

[6:48 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Mathematical Genius

[6:49 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: New service protocol means new operations and the full spectrum of resetting and readiness or even abit of reverse methods...

- - annoymous

[6:50 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Yes! Silent too!

[6:52 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: History is a lesson and a story telling; realtime is a continuous battle into the unknown till proven wrong or correct, itself becomes History!

- - annoymous

[6:53 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Be brave! Step out of the circumference, that's the first step into the unknown!

- - annoymous

[6:54 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: In maths aka as infinity...

[6:55 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: The current currency war is unique. The economic and mathematical model we study at school might not work and be relevant.

[6:56 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: To view the learning curve as a contiuum is the starts of the first possible breakthrough...

- - annoymous

[6:57 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: In a two party game coupled with the next few players, that's the game!

[6:58 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: Collaborate...to achieve stability in both currencies...this troubled times!

Where is the TRUST?

[6:59 pm, 28/09/2022] +Smiley face: ASEAN is a 6-8 players.... currency game, a tiny hint...

[6:59 pm, 28/09/2022] +SL: Games are more extensive than most of us thought; multi-dimension game

[7:00 pm, 28/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

=====

REACH 398 - What are your views on the current public housing policies? How can we better manage our expectations and aspirations to ensure that Singapore’s land and resources are utilized optimally?

(SK)

26 Sep 2022 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:51 am, 26/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

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We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

[10:02 am, 26/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

Speaking at a public engagement session at the URA Centre on Sunday (25 Sept), Minister Desmond Lee said that as Singapore looks forward to planning and providing housing in the years ahead while safeguarding land and resources for future generations, more discussions need to be held about how housing policies should evolve in tandem with societal changes, and Singaporeans' changing aspirations and concerns about public housing.

💬 What are your views on the current public housing policies? How can we better manage our expectations and aspirations to ensure that Singapore’s land and resources are utilized optimally?

Speaking at the engagement, Mr Lee said: "Social compact may sound very high-level, but it's actually very important to talk about our responsibilities and aspirations, as these will guide how we use our resources. It will then translate into the way we implement our housing policy as a whole because Singapore's housing policy is a social policy that impacts society and people's lives.” 

“Our social compact on housing is not static, has not been and never will be. As our circumstances change and our society evolves, our policies must also evolve constantly to keep pace," he added.

This includes the introduction of the prime location public housing (PLH) model, which ensure opportunities for Singaporeans to live in central locations, rather than leaving it to free market forces, and the HDB buyback scheme, to support families who faced constraints when trying to sell their flats because of the Ethnic Integration Policy.

Acknowledging that most Singaporeans are concerned with construction delays, waiting times for HDB flats, and affordability of housing, Mr Lee said that the Housing Board is managing the construction delays and ramping up supply to launch up to 100,000 new flats from 2021 to 2025 to meet housing demands and that the Government will "continue to keep a close watch" over the property market to ensure it is stable and sustainable.

The session is the first in a series kicking off Build - one of the six pillars of the Forward Singapore exercise to forge a new social compact, launched by Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong in June.

👉🏻https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/singaporeans-aspirations-and-concerns-on-housing-to-be-discussed-desmond-lee

👉🏻https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/budget-debate-hdb-to-buy-back-flats-from-owners-who-are-unable-to-sell-due-to-ethnic-quota-limits

👉🏻https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/what-is-hdbs-prime-location-public-housing-model-will-the-pinnacleduxton-be

----

[10:13 am, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: "Starts from the home out to the bigger HOME. For the future and our generations, these spaces matter alot more than everyone could imagine...?"

- - annoymous

[10:14 am, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: "得青年人,得天下!

Youth is the deciders of tomorrow!"

- - annoymous

[10:15 am, 26/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Certain prime area lease could be shorten

[10:15 am, 26/09/2022] +Timothy Low: It’s high time for a cooling measure to be implemented. Housing price is ridiculous now

[10:16 am, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: "Every 100sqm (living or working) is an opportunity than costs; think of possibilities or overly concerned over costs will result in missed opportunities, that will be a bigger lost of benefits!"

- - annoymous

[10:53 am, 26/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Singaporean desire to have affordable housing, hence HDB should peg pricing based on land cost and building cost instead of valuation of nearby housing.

To prevent these owners from profiting too much, higher profit levy when they sell between 5th to 15th yr of staying

[10:55 am, 26/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Those who simply wants a roof can continue to have an affordable housing, as they are least likely to sell for profits in short term

[10:56 am, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: It would be good to have pricing cap to avoid spirilling prices.  Otherwise next generation  can only house new Singaporeans, EP whilst majority  locals rental or homeless.  Scary

[10:58 am, 26/09/2022] +SL: Is it like Hong Kong?

[11:03 am, 26/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Housing is always a sticky issue, not able to please everyone

[11:04 am, 26/09/2022] +KSFoong: HDB should focus on it’s mission. How to prevent the system being abused by opportunists?

[11:05 am, 26/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Set higher mop perhaps

[11:05 am, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Also more give more additional grant  from government.

[11:06 am, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Income low = grant housing high = MOP

[11:06 am, 26/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Currently there is EHG in place

[11:08 am, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Government will suggest more grant to given in future because HDB open market affect transaction sale high

[11:08 am, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Maybe I image $1m sold then government give grants housing more than $300k

[11:11 am, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: I envy in the present year grant housing give up to total $160k.

My currently was only $15k and more loan HDB

[11:12 am, 26/09/2022] +65 9009 7919: +1

[11:30 am, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: One of the important considerations in building a 'Smart Nation' is that development and redevelopment must be up to 80% modernized? What's the capitals, benefits and timeline in achieving so, aka smart nation?

[11:34 am, 26/09/2022] +jimmy chew: Anyone know why the recent sales of HDB flats are exceptionally high these few months?

[11:39 am, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: Willing buyer

[11:40 am, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Hong Kong money I'm told. Also rents are 40-80% up

[11:41 am, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: My friends lease is up and the rent went up from 4.6k to 8.2k, which he can't do so has to move.

[11:41 am, 26/09/2022] +Timothy Low: Locked down made people realise that they need a bigger space to live comfortably

[11:41 am, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Seems the landlord's are milking the situation and happy to have empty properties if needed for a few months in the hope of extorting high rents from tenants who can't buy.

[11:42 am, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: unfortunately the increase in prices is forcing people into smaller accommodation

[11:43 am, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Not good for society for people to feel so vulnerable in thier homes from greedy landlords

[11:44 am, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Perhaps rent should be capped at 10% above housing loan costs, or something where landlords can still invest and make money, but not force people out of their homes with crazy increases.

[11:47 am, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: "Condo rents surged by 27.5 per cent year on year in August, while HDB rents were 21.6 per cent higher."

- - Straits Times 23/9/22

[11:50 am, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Exactly - I know 2 people in this case as their leases came up. 1 from 2k to 2.9k and the other I mentioned from 4.6k to 8.2k. Both had to move and downgrade their residence.

[0:00 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi L,

Maybe relocate from core district to outside of core, can mean lower rent and larger living space?

[0:12 pm, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: My sister-in-law relocating neighbouring country next year where cost more manageable

[0:14 pm, 26/09/2022] +SL: Not sure if The average rental price will go down much compared to what is stated here.

[0:14 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: yes of course. Move away from friends and family, and work, relocate kid's schools. All possible, and necessary when the landlord nearly doubles your rent. I'm proposing that it shouldn't be allowed. Of course if  interest skyrockets, then the landlord will pass that on. These two examples, were Geylang and Dakota. Are they considered core?

[0:21 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: Physical Geography (Zoning) wise, Geylang and Dakota crescent vicinities are next to katong. Likewise for Marine Parade area.

[1:46 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: Is housing one of the critical drivers for migrating talents?

[1:47 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: Governments dangle carrots to woo global talent

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/australianz/governments-dangle-carrots-to-woo-global-talent

Extracts:

"But there is, of course, another crucial ingredient for attracting global talent - lifestyle..."

"Those best and brightest minds, who are on the move around the world - they are looking to live in countries like Canada, Germany and the UK, and those countries are rolling out a red carpet to welcome them in."

"Economic opportunities are a main driver of how immigrants choose their destination,..." 

"A survey of 12,000 expatriates by InterNations in 2022 found that the top five favoured destinations of 52 countries were Mexico, Indonesia, and Taiwan, Portugal and Spain. Singapore ranked 10th."

[1:55 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Concerns regarding HDB flats (same concerns raise by my private chat groups):-

1. Our children upon marriage wish to apply to HDB flats near to parents house - so that we can take care of the grandchildren - as the parents go for work.

If our children applies to far outskirt suburban areas, it will be very difficult for our children to place their children to parents' home so far away - and go to work and then bring their children home after work.

2. The problem we are facing are :-

a. As we live in mature estates, the new BTO flats available is very scarce.

b. Understand that more SERS will be conducted as lease are expiring in mature estates - hence more new BTO flats will be available in mature estates. This will somehow solve the problem in 2(a).

c. However, the prices of these new BTO flats in the mature estate will be very high - a premium above the BTO flats in more suburban areas - that will make new young couples price out of reach - as they just started out in their career.

Soln:- Is to provide a bigger grant to young couples for these mature estates - so that the buying prices of these BTO flats will be equivalent and comparable to the prices of the suburb areas of various HDB flat types.

d. Also various HDB flat types should be made available in the mature estates such as 5-room flat, 4-room flat, 3-room flat.

As our children have various needs. 

Eg. my children will prefer a 5-room flat as he want to raise more children, need to setup his various types of IT gadgets at home as he is doing R&D and needs bigger space to work.

Some of my private group children will prefer a 4-room flat or a 3-room flat.

3. Also we noticed that the prices of the current new BTO HDB various flat types are going higher and higher --- and are making our children nervous --- which make it more and more difficult to finance the new BTO flats.

It doesn't help as interest rate is sky-rocketing - and will pose financial problems to our children financing their new BTO flats needed for marriage and raising kids.

4. Also understand that young couples need to ROM first, before they can register for a BTO flat. This result in long wait for HDB flats running into years before getting a flat - which deter marriage and raising kids.

Yesterday, reading the news on the Forward Singapore - Housing pillars - some participants in the Meet the Minister session mention - can the previous housing policy be revisited - whereby, HDB flats to be build in advance in anticipation of demands - and this will cut short the waiting time to 3 months instead of years before getting a flat.

I think this policy of building flats in anticipation of demands - is worth reviving - to encourage young couples to facilitate marriage and raise children.

5. To summarise, there is an urgent needs to relook at the housing problems that our children are facing currently - which makes young couples more and more challenging to buy and own a public house to raise a family.

[2:06 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: 1. At present all the HDB rules very strict for Singaporeans.

Example Only can buy one HDB Flat and when invest in second one, they are penalised with hefty Stampfee.

Where as SPRs happliy buying, despite they already have homes in their countries and they happliy invest with in MOP Period.

(So far i have never read about News that PRs penalised for False declaration etc.)

Many PRs despite they don't live in Singapore anymore Renting out. 

I feel it's total unfair.

2. Current market Really making Tough for low and middle income buyers to buy HDBs, when this kind of low supply high prices, feeling it would be better if making rule that PRs can not buy (at present PRs need to wait 3 yrs, before that this rule wae not there, like wise given the current situati…

[2:08 pm, 26/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

Speaking at a public engagement session at the URA Centre on Sunday (25 Sept), Minister Desmond Lee said that as Singapore looks forward to planning and providing housing in the years ahead while safeguarding land and resources for future generations, more discussions need to be held about how housing policies should evolve in tandem with societal changes, and Singaporeans' changing aspirations and concerns about public housing.

💬 What are your views on the current public housing policies? How can we better manage our expectations and aspirations to ensure that Singapore’s land and resources are utilized optimally?

Speaking at the engagement, Mr Lee said: "Social compact may sound very high-level, but it's actually very important to talk about our responsibilities and aspirations, as these will guide how we use our resources. It will then translate into the way we implement our housing policy as a whole because Singapore's housing policy is a social policy that impacts society and people's lives.” 

“Our social compact on housing is not static, has not been and never will be. As our circumstances change and our society evolves, our policies must also evolve constantly to keep pace," he added.

This includes the introduction of the prime location public housing (PLH) model, which ensure opportunities for Singaporeans to live in central locations, rather than leaving it to free market forces, and the HDB buyback scheme, to support families who faced constraints when trying to sell their flats because of the Ethnic Integration Policy.

Acknowledging that most Singaporeans are concerned with construction delays, waiting times for HDB flats, and affordability of housing, Mr Lee said that the Housing Board is managing the construction delays and ramping up supply to launch up to 100,000 new flats from 2021 to 2025 to meet housing demands and that the Government will "continue to keep a close watch" over the property market to ensure it is stable and sustainable.

The session is the first in a series kicking off Build - one of the six pillars of the Forward Singapore exercise to forge a new social compact, launched by Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong in June.

👉🏻https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/singaporeans-aspirations-and-concerns-on-housing-to-be-discussed-desmond-lee

👉🏻https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/budget-debate-hdb-to-buy-back-flats-from-owners-who-are-unable-to-sell-due-to-ethnic-quota-limits

👉🏻https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/what-is-hdbs-prime-location-public-housing-model-will-the-pinnacleduxton-be

[2:11 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Kindly note I am Saying about RESALE HDBs

[2:12 pm, 26/09/2022] +Wilson Leong Kum Weng: FYI, For resale HDB, PR is not allow to rent out whole unit.

[2:13 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: As per rule yes. But many doing it.

That's what i mentioned

[2:15 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Even The First point the rule is there that Even PR should not have any real property any where else in the world. And must not invest Any where with in MOP period

But i am saying PRs still buying Despite they are actually not eligible as per rule.

(Some PRs when i told abt this rule strictly, they simply went ahead with other agents and bought)

[2:16 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: I am asking IS it FAIR to Singaporeans?

When they are monitored and when GOVT easily track what other properties they have.

THE ABOVE rule is there, but does HDB really checking about PRs?

If not checking is it FAIR policy?

Does it caught any PR who Violated the Rules?

[2:18 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: 26 September, 2022

"Concept of Reversal"

"Doing things differently is a starter of innovation; executing and implementing the reverse ways from the original is a RESET and a refreshing perspective?"

- - annoymous

How?

Lowered the age limit of first time (Singles) HDB buyers from 35 yrs old to 30 yrs old?

The original intend is to encourage the young ones to marry and then apply for their first nest.

How about letting our Singles at 30yrs old to apply for a smaller sized flats in say 2-3 rooms and find their spouses? Isn't this a reversal of things?

What are the unintended consequences from reversing this simple social policy of accessing one's first  HDB property?

Then?

The mulit-families (两代或三代同堂) living concept has been around for decades. It was a success but the demographics and economics of choices have changed over time, if we fast forward to 2022? 

But it is of paramount importance that we live closer to our ageing parents for all peace of minds and conveniences. There are always tough choices to make both the dwellers and the policymakers. 

How can we meet these needs and demands? Where are the workable connections (ways) to reduce these valid anxieties, home to home?

    - -  in progress - -

[2:19 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: 4. In a Country like Singapore where more than half population is Old, telling and Making policies that Discriminate Old HDB vs NEW 

Is deffinatly WRONG.

Now On groud old Flats hard to sell (unless really unique kind of properties)

Where as JUST MOP ones selling super high Prices!

(Because of CPF rule)

Is it Fair?

Is it Fair to Old people who wants to Downgrade and sell their flats end up getting low prices, simply because of CPF rule?

[2:19 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: I thought SPR cannot buy resale HDB

[2:19 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: 😀No 

Can buy

[2:21 pm, 26/09/2022] +Wilson Leong Kum Weng: As long both is SPR for 3 years can buy resale HDB with bank loan. If got APR can immediately buy private also can. Single name

[2:21 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Yes

[2:21 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Couple wife PR and Husband PR can’t buy BTO but can buy resale HDB, condominium or land house

[2:21 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: HDB Resale Eligibility Conditions and Requirements for an SPR

First off, if you’re wondering can a single PR buy HDB — the answer is, unfortunately, no, even if it’s a resale flat. Under the HDB rules, a SPR can only buy a resale HDB flat with another SPR or SC under two schemes: the HDB Public Scheme, which is buying with family (i.e. spouse, children, siblings, parents), or the Fiance/Fiancee Scheme, which is well, your fiance or fiancee.

In other words, a single PR can’t buy an HDB resale flat alone.

[2:22 pm, 26/09/2022] +Wilson Leong Kum Weng: Old flat can sell just got to sell more competitive than newer flat. That is life

[2:22 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: https://www.propertyguru.com.sg/property-guides/how-do-singapore-permanent-residents-buy-a-hdb-flat-9914

[2:22 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: I know

[2:22 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: I. Am licensed property agent i know the hdb rules

[2:23 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Haha can or can’t

[2:23 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Depends lol

[2:23 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Can't rent out though

[2:24 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Please read 1st point again

[2:25 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: So no stamp duty for SPR?

[2:25 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: There is 5 % ABSD

[2:25 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Should have

[2:26 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: And for Citizen?

[2:26 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: I wll explain bit more

[2:26 pm, 26/09/2022] +RH: +1

[2:26 pm, 26/09/2022] +Wilson Leong Kum Weng: Nil ABSD. Only BSD, buyer stamp duty

[2:29 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: I do agree impossible to check if property owned elsewhere, but if there is a mortgage on the overseas property and the buyer needs a mortage on the SG property it would be fraud if they didn't declare that.

[2:29 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Bank could find out the Buyer has a mortgage overseas, and report it to Gov.

[2:30 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Suma pamu, how are you?

"The Paradigm Shifters, these Differentiations and Depreciations"

So long a country is globally and regionally relevant, connected and economically viable, many socioeconomic issues will solve by itself.

Simply put it, stability and progression are the keys to the future of any country.

Hope it makes some sense? Thank you.

[2:33 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: PRs as long Family (Husband and Wife BOTH PR )

From the Date of They got PR status after 3yrears Eligible to buy RESALE HDB 

This is basic rule

But for Citizen or PRs There is FIRST and FOREMOST RULE is 

To BUY HDB, one should not own any Other Property any where else in the world, if they have MUST DISPOSE THAT property with in 6 months of Getting the Keys of HDB flat 

So i am saying if Singaporean owns any property example he will easily get caught, so he will declare if he has any other property, and he will sell With in 6 months after getting HDB keys.

But for PRs especially non malaysian PRs 

They have properties In their own country never declare To HDB, so they don't need to sell.

[2:33 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: Agree

[2:35 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: "Privilege or Entitlement?"

Need to redefine each parameter.

[2:35 pm, 26/09/2022] +RH: Sounds like ther are loopholes in the system.

HDB officers either sleeping or just not bothered?

Nd to hv more stringent chk on this.

And prevent such "unfairness" to our local popn.

[2:37 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: One example 

Recently in our collegues group some one shared.

This Singaporean Couple 

Both above 35yrs, now mid 40yrs shld be previously In Single scheme when they are eligible they both bought HDBs before they got married.

So they rented out one,unit and One day HDB came to know this and Forced them To sell One unit and only Allowed to keep one.

This is Fair When u look at HDB rules 

But i am asking About PRs.

They have multiple properties..they also invest Continously with out any penalties in their countries 

(Simple logic earining more than 8k 

.many even 10k plus Salaries..many yrs working Banks IT sectors if Hdb think they never invested in Real estate, i would say funny)

[2:38 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Basically breaking the law, which is an offence and could risk repossession of the SG property. Also, there is nothing to stop SG Citizen buying overseas if they also want to take this risk.

[2:38 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/living-in-an-hdb-flat/acquiring-private-property

[2:39 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: my own experience with HDB is awful when it came to proving I sold my overseas property.

[2:39 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: Not sleeping or can't be bothered but somewhat blind

[2:39 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: I've sent letters from both buyer and seller solicitors, bank statements, confirmation letters etc - but still they want more evidence.

[2:39 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Oh I see

You bough overseas property

[2:40 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: One Incident

A collegue shared about 8plus yrs ago

When in appointment HDB officer asked Do u hv any property any where in the world 

The Buyer said YES .

AND agent shocked 

She forgot to ask them about this ..

And officer didn't say anything.

The sale still proceeded.

And i guess now they already sold house😀

Not pointing out any HDB officers

They also know the rule there but they have no enough man power to check.

[2:40 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: I had overseas property before I bought my HDB, and yes I declared it.

[2:40 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: An article recently on social media where a man trying to buy out his wife share has to fork out 200k.

[2:40 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: So you owned local and overseas property mean you have pay more taxes

[2:42 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Cannot buy HDB if you own overseas property.

[2:42 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Nope one collegue case

The Buyer applied New EC (same HDB buying rules apply)

Before the sale process complete The govt came to know he has a residential property in Malasyia.

And he couldn't able to Proceed with sale .as HDB said Not allowed to buy ).

Agent got Scolded for not checking About Whether buyer own anything.

(And this example we keep hear in our Cpd Semianrs)

[2:42 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: All relevant subsidies are removed

[2:43 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Cannot buy at all if own oversease property.

[2:43 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Before bough 1st HDB BTO agate MOP 5 years then 2nd buy overseas is ok

But rule 1st buy overseas or private apartments local then are not eligible buy HDB BTO

[2:43 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Wow, I'm amazed no penalty!

[2:44 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Exactly

[2:44 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: Can buy base on only one property but not entitled to any subsidy

[2:44 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: But it’s tax dollars because of foreign permit

[2:45 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: See.. 

That's what i am saying..

And Surprisingly There is so far no news about a Case of PR who got caught....

No example to tell buyers stirctly

I have written to HDB 

Told them as ethical agent i am telling this rule, in the end PRBuyer simply going with other agents .

I was raising about this many times already

[2:46 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Yes

[2:46 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: I am not rich but heartland and sola breadwinner unless I am not strike Toto become millionaire

[2:46 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Yes

[2:46 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: Wrong

[2:48 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Me too 

Recently it happend.

I thought

Looks like i am the fool to lose the deals all these years😑

Where as people Out there are happy.

But its ok.i am not full time agent, my family don't depend on my income.

So its fine.

Just that it will be unfait to the citizens, also to PRs who follow the Rules.

[2:50 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: After MOP of HDB 

Any one can invest overseas

Even PRs

😀

Just that If PRs buy Here then Can not 

They must sell HDB then only can Buy Condo..(meaning even after 5 yrs Of MOP 

PR can not Rent out whole unit also if buy Local Private property..must sell Hdb With in 6 months of getting keys of Private)

Where as Citizen Can buy Condo but with Hefty ABSD

[2:50 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Yes, you are no fool for doing the right thing. Some people said I was too honest for declaring my property, but I agree with you. HDB system is generally very good and good for Singapore, so I want to help uphold it.

[2:50 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Well said

[2:51 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Same my thoughts.

[2:51 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: I am keen to buy Australia house A$400k reasonable in Perth.

But the taxpayers is very high than Singapore no money then don’t buy at risk for nothing.

[2:51 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: For rich investments buy in overseas

[2:52 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: Find out also whom you can sell to later on.

[2:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Very true, i know many people unable to grow their Wealth because of rules here.

Unable to trust other countries. 

And unable to afford hefty ABSDs here.

[2:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Foreigner owned property to put up for sell after sold that have to levy tax 30%

[2:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: I no money 30% too much lol

[2:57 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: If we talk about in current RESALE HDBs 

There is low supply, especially if budget low,

But many PRs easily can afford

(Kindly note i am stressing more About NON MALAYSIAN SPR..) becz most malasyian PRs whom i know, their salries low compare to other PRs.

I hope At the Current Market, HDB must make Rule and stop letting PRs buy RESALE HDBs.

At least for now, for few years as a cooling measure.

(They can still allow Malaysian SPRs, if they want to)

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: Why ?

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: U Malaysian ?

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: Should all pr be the same ?

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: No la

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: I agree I serve ns no house

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: No good

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: But I can said it’s a fair 

Singapore local bough Malaysia property cheap price 

So SPR also can buy resale HDB

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: :(

[2:58 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Because The Rental quots Diff for Spr Of Malaysian And Non malysiqn

[2:59 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Notice that older HDB flats in mature estates are about 13 to 15 floors.

2. If SERS are to be conducted on those older HDB flats in the mature estates, more than 30 floors can be built ---- as most height restrictions have been removed (as Paya Lebar Airbase are moving to Tengah Airbase and Changi Airport).

This will increase the capacity of HDB flats per same footfall - and as a result young couples can buy their new BTO flats in mature estates ---- rather than being push to the fringe, far far away suburbs - to live far apart from their parents - and not able to take care of their grandchildren while the young couple works.

3. But prices in the mature estates - will still need to be tackle - as the prices of these BTO flats in the mature estate are at a ridiculous price.

Eg. the recent new BTO flats in Ang Mo Kio is price at :-

4-room flat $535,000 to $676,000

5-room flat $720,000 to $877,000

Jalan Besar 3-room flat is price at close to $500,000

Comparatively, suburban flats are :-

$245,000 to $317,000 (3-room)

$374,000 to $460,000 (4-room)

$493,000 to $581,000 (5-room)

Wonder how do the young couples afford?

[2:59 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Govt may not want totally Prohibit the PRs to buy HDB

[2:59 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: Should i say all guy serve ns should be give a house if not I no heart to protect the country when in danger ?

[3:00 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: What a joke to give Malaysian ley way

[3:00 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Can afford no worry government will help increase grant more and less burden

[3:00 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: +1

[3:01 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Also waiting too many years to Do SERS will be very difficult

As many will be Too olr to accept it, 

Rather do earlier than later i would say.

[3:04 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: HDB will build BTO 100k in coming years I am sure young generation can affordable 4 room

[3:05 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: How about my generation ?

[3:05 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Are you first timer BTO if yes then ready

[3:08 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: Who u representing ? HDB ?

[3:10 pm, 26/09/2022] +Wilson Leong Kum Weng: Just go non mature. Give us the chance to buy mature estate

[3:12 pm, 26/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Calling all Singaporeans!📢

ThinkPlace Singapore, together with NParks and Ministry of Social and Family Development (MSF), is organising Focus Group Discussions for the future Garden for SG Women!  

📆 17 Oct (Monday), 7.30pm - 9.30pm 

📍 Zoom

Register in the link below to share your stories of SG Women and aspirations for the garden: https://go.gov.sg/sgwomengardengen

[3:12 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: I agree

[3:12 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Mature estate start from $250k 2room

[3:13 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

You mean PR only allow to buy at non-mature and Singaporeans to buy at mature estates?

[3:13 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Whom can afford then go non mature 

Non mature much better than mature because environment is noiseless

[3:14 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Mature like City Hall Jalan Beasar very noise there are coming F1 race car more noise

[3:16 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Why young couples want mature estates is because they want to live near their parents to look after the children.

[3:16 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: I live in mature I no peace every year F1 race car keep noise more louder

[3:17 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

F1 only in CBD not in every mature estates.

[3:17 pm, 26/09/2022] +Wilson Leong Kum Weng: Those can not afford buy non mature estate. Give those can afford buy mature estate

[3:18 pm, 26/09/2022] +Frankie Wee: Here HDB brain street

[3:19 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

So rich poor enclaves cemented.

Not meeting the social objective of social compactness?

[3:19 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Seems many not aware how BTO is priced.

What you have seen untill recently is different,.

Now even Non mature Estates hitting super HIGH RESALE PRICES

(Because Of Newly MOP flat, i wonder who is buying soo expensive in those non mature areas,

PRs deffinatly significant numbers)

Meaning Its just a matter of time you will see BTOs in mature estates will be equal to the mature estates current price, 

The mature Estates prices go up slightly higher.. but people will feel pain in Non mature estates.

Kindly observe Resale.HDB prices

Especially just MOP ones in Areas like punggol.

[3:20 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: +1

[3:20 pm, 26/09/2022] +Wilson Leong Kum Weng: Nothing is fair in life. Everyone is given the fair chance. You want this and you need to sacrifice others.

[3:27 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

So your comments contradict the Minister statement.

[3:28 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: 😯😲

[3:29 pm, 26/09/2022] +Wilson Leong Kum Weng: That is minister statement. Nothing wrong but HDB already doing their best to help all. You can't help everyone along the way some got to be sacrifice for majority.

[3:30 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

The majority and the future is for the young couples.

[3:35 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

The young people will lead the Country to the next generation, the next lap.

[3:40 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Note sure whether allowed to share this or not in this group

[3:41 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: @REACH Singapore can delete if not allowed.

[3:42 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: The above is screenshots Of Recent HDB RESALE transactions Happend in Punggol Sumang Lane.

You can see Prices.

3rm itself 460k

[3:42 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: It's a problem, but one one hand no one is forced to sell, but if they do that's good money coming into Singapore economy!

[3:44 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Not really

All the Rich PRs if not allowed to buy HDB, they will buy Condos infact so Govt can get more money😀

[3:44 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Since all guys have to do NS that would mean giving all males a free home. Not fair for the ladies!

[3:44 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: 4rm Resale 600K in Punggol

So what it indicates,

Its just matter of time

Even non mature estates will see high BTO prices

[3:46 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: Ture, but we want to avoid a segregated society.

[3:49 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: I am not sure how many of members here living in areas like Some new estates...

One particular race,

is predominantly high ratio in that area

I am talking about Resqle HDBs

Condos also same problem happening.

[3:50 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: We are a free society ladies can volunteers too :) 2 years 4 month 

SPF SCDF SAF RSAF RSN

[3:51 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Disclaimer:

Kindly note based on my observation and my experience

(I may not be 100% Right).

I find it way too many Indian race people In Punggol sengkang

Than Bishan Toa payoh.

Example (based on my observation)

[3:57 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.gov.sg/article/hdbs-ethnic-integration-policy-why-it-still-matters

[3:57 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Still matters

But need tweaking

[3:58 pm, 26/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Now the demand of new BTO flats are for young couples who intend to get married, to raise kids and start a family.

So if the whole focus of the housing policy if not concentrate on these young couples - what is?

Pushing young couples further and further to the fringe, far far away to the suburbs due to house pricing is not a good strategy - as the young people are our future in building up the country.

Thus government housing strategy is how to build affordable houses in mature estates to bring the young couples back into our mature estates.

Not pushing them away - by market forces or affordability.

In ensuring social compactness - this is the right way to do.

[4:08 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: Who are the prospects buyer?

First timer 

Upgrader 

Downsizer

Senior

How should we allocate housing resources such as grant, priority and quantity?

[4:17 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: Besides size, location and uniqueness (eg. no two homes are the same) are two keys to assess value of any types of physical property.

Next is what's the utility (socio- economic activities) and accesssbility (connectors) especially in an Urban living situation?

[4:25 pm, 26/09/2022] +Joseph Yap: 💬 What are your views on the current public housing policies? How can we better manage our expectations and aspirations to ensure that Singapore’s land and resources are utilized optimally?

Every year, a number of first-time buyers bought the subsidised HDB flats with the objective of selling them for a profit after the minimum occupancy period (MOP) of 5 years. This group of buyers usually leave the flats vacant. 

Firstly, I applaud the decision on MOP for Prime Location Public Housing flats to be 10 years.

Secondly, I propose a higher MOP should be introduced for all non-prime location projects to discourage such money-making behaviour mentioned above. With the speculative element being reduced/ removed, HDB can correspondingly increase the subsidies to keep the prices affordable.

Thirdly, the resale HDB flats bought from the open market (without CPF housing grant) are currently subjected to MOP of 5 years. Since the buyers did not receive any subsidies, the MOP should be shortened instead.

[4:36 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: 26 September, 2022

Land and Use?

" When you pay peanuts, don't expect to get...and it always look greener across the river...?"

- - annoymous

Bare land needs billions of dollars to 'place' it up to speed, from power grids, water points, 5G, sewages, hospitals, schools, markets, and roads & highways. Most importantly, all these take longer (long term) time to plan and to build!

What is an agricultural land with minimal or no infrastructure?

What is a highly urbanised piece of land? It is connected to amenities, facilities and more suitable for modern styles of living and working.

What's the attributes in value and valuation counts for any land (homes)?

    - - in progress - -

[4:48 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: 26 September, 2022

Comparative Analysis of Nations Home Prices?

"For once, broken record, to compare apple with others!"

- - annoymous

What's the price range for a 100sqm home in HK, in Shanghai, in NYC and in London?

Are these locales, their prices affordable to buy or better-off to rent? 

Lastly, are these residential properties freehold, leasehold or a shorter lease of less than 60 years (and counting down)?

(Disclaimer: It is never a gentleman or gentle lady to compare others. Just for this discussion, a record was broken.)

    - - in progress - -

[4:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +RH: +1

[5:06 pm, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: It was unbelivable that HDB price zoom high up to $1m.  HDB cannot be totally free market as it is public housing

[5:07 pm, 26/09/2022] +Rama: Agree

[5:09 pm, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: If there is quota for race in the area, same should apply to true local / New Singaporeans

[5:09 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Actually i wonder whoz buying

I will never ever buy HDB paying millions

If got that kind of money i rather buy Condo

[5:09 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: What if a senario of reversal happens?

Prices fell to half, who, why and what causes it to fall?

[5:10 pm, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: They only report condo mass grab by China.  Assuming the same applies to HDB

[5:10 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Not really

[5:10 pm, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: My neighbour 4-room flat on the right from China. Corner left from Myanmar

[5:12 pm, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: A few years ago Indonesia bought 2nd storey 3-room $500k (before before covid)

[5:17 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: 😮i guess, it was Central location!

[5:18 pm, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: Clementi

[5:18 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: No wonder👍🏽

[5:19 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Clementi always on high demend area.. even for rentals. Not enough supply there..

And it should be Newer Just MOP flat.. if not old ones not so expensive.. especially 3rms

[5:20 pm, 26/09/2022] +Noraini: Before before covid lots of China speaking when we q to vote MP

[5:21 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Area.... that's what i was saying earlier...

Some how some areas some races are More predominant than the others

[5:26 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: 26 September, 2022

"Buy and sell, sell and buy (efficiency or equity)?"

Is this speculative or something more than buy-sell, these residential properties (and commercial ones)?

Are these buyers well informed and beliefs the value of their transacted properties will further boom? Where are those sellers? Are they Renting or upgraded or monetized and downsized? Is this a happy problem in the making or not so?

One surest thing is price of residential properties (follows by commercial) will continue to up (mid-way now) and the 'peak' is yet to come! Any interventions in the foreseeable future to 'cool' this hot plate?

     - - in progress - -

[5:27 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: One People One Singapore - can't start splitting based on place of birth. That doesn't create a good sense of unity.

[5:27 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: $1m HDB = $2m+ condo, plus monthly service charge

[5:28 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: I go buy far where i can get Condo with 1 mil

Its ok i travel

[6:18 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: See on one hand someone previously talk about giving advantage to Malaysian SPR , now when with benefit u talk about unity :) so werid. Don’t tell me NS is benefit .

[6:33 pm, 26/09/2022] +L or BL: ?

[6:33 pm, 26/09/2022] +KL: Nvm I think it was another person

[6:47 pm, 26/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

[6:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: https://tomorrow.city/a/fujisawa-sustainable-smart-town

[6:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: I said IF THE GOVT want to

[6:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Never say Give

Please don't TWIST others words

[6:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: Read again

[6:53 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.dutchhousingpolicy.nl/topics/sustainable-households

[6:54 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.turnerandtownsend.com/en/perspectives/the-netherlands-how-to-build-a-million-sustainable-homes/

[6:55 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: And I know very well 

How the Hdb differentiate malaysian Vs Non malaysians 

In Rental quotas

And i know The bilateral ties with Malaysia is not as simple as we can say here anythinv

I clearly said Above also

At the Moment

Ban PR buying 

So Middle and low income citizens get to buy something in their budget.

[6:56 pm, 26/09/2022] +Suma pamu: If you do not read all messages and wants to Highlight only one thing

I have nothing to say..

U share your opinion

Don't TWIST others words

[6:59 pm, 26/09/2022] +Smiley face: 26 September, 2022

To: Our Distinguished Leaders and All Honorable Members

"Building A World Class Smart Homes!"

"Every 100sqm (living or working) is an opportunity than costs; think of possibilities or overly concerned over costs will result in missed opportunities, that will be a bigger lost of benefits!"

- - annoymous

Ecosystem of Public Housings -An Intrinsic values & Extrinsic values - A Smart Home:

Intrinsic Values:

Form, design and utility of each flat type from a studio to a 5 rooms. 

Yesterday's HDB interior configurations can no longer 'cut and paste' to tomorrow homes. In simple words, our Demographics has changed especially the last 10 years and still changing. From the younger first time buyers looking for form and design to our ageing seniors looking for utility in smaller living space to rest and relax.

These are reimagine and aspiring list of items to consider when designing the future dwellings for our next generation home owners.

Starts with a clean sheet of paper before we prefab it! How about an increase floor space of 10% just in case of a WFM situation which is the future of a work life balance aka as a 4 days work week, an open kitchen, a bath tub, a balcony at either Master room for studio to 3 room flats or balcony extend from the living room for 4-5 room flats, higher celing for all flat types, noise reduction windows, walls, floors and doors, electronic lock for the main door, running and walking path at Mid or Top level, larger lifts to fit in wheelchair or emergency equipments, ventilated gym and indoor community activities rooms at roof garden? 

Landscape planning, Garden and surroundings should includes flowers, spices, herbs and fruit trees. Purpose-built areas at ground level for various exercises and 'age' group activities. Connectors to public transportation, convenience, handicapped enable, seniors and wet weather proof.

Allocation of new units, how about 'mixing' (ethnic ratio) race and religion in every ten floors of a block up and up to 50 storey tall?  Next is the priority of who gets first choice, second choice and so on. These categories are: First timer, Upgrader/Downsizer, Elderly and to forget those whom need to rent a flat too!

Using what we have to our advantages, there are achievable ways to add value to each HDB development project. For each project, it requires human of all expertises and talents to conceptualize a smarter living space and the enlarged purpose oriented common open spaces. 

One meaningful way, by giving our young architects and interior designers s chance to create their best ideas in each project and the flat types. This contest is to seek out outstanding designers and architects for each project. What's the layout for each flat type, common space and compliment facilities and accessible from muliple points -interblock. The form, design and utility be approach to a fulfilling end product, that is each home (smart space) is within a Smart vicinity and a Smarter Nation in the making!

Given the exposure and experience, who knows, these award winners may bloom into fame and their careers will elevate them to overseas projects!

So what's the Benefits of this extensive and inclusive exercise? 

The buyers will receive their World-Class smart homes, the architects and designers will be elevated to the next level of competencies and opportunities for more jobs whether is local or better still away from our homeland. Lastly, our HDB will continue to stand taller as one of the world best Public enterprises in creating and building smart homes of tomorrows! Isn't it feels like starting all over again!

Extrinsic Values:

Planners, Designers, IDs,  Builders, Home owners these are the stakeholders. Today and going into tomorrow, it is no long a builder and buyer relationship which was then the beginning of our HDB success story.

Affordability, this word can means low price or it can be misinterpreted as cheaper alternatives. Both meanings do not best represent the aspirations of both the policymakers and the Public. How about 'Good and Liveable' as alternative words?

Perhaps we should gear towards adding values to each housing project so much so that buyers will see the 'value for money', both intangibles and tangibles of what they have purchased and eagerly waiting to move it. After all, owning a home is one of the most important things in anyone's lifetime and this place called home is even more important or what many would call  theirs' "home sweet home"! Isn't it true?

Policy &  Planners:

Creaters of possibilities, town amenities & facilities planners, architects, IDs, landscapers, and planters.

How can policymakers make it sweeter for first time buyers to own their first homes?

How about 10% upfront grant as the deposit when S&P is signed and a longer period of time before the next payment comes due follows by the loan approval?

In conclusion, it is an exciting life event for any buyer of HDB homes, it is a creation of hopes and a head start for many years of living and bringing up the next generation! 

As for HDB, it is a golden chance to include private and public efforts in uplifting every project to a higher plateau of finished homes from the previous ones or years, that's itself is a big game changer and a reimagine of a World-Class builder (#1) of public housing!

Most importantly, let our future HDB be ONE united spirit of LIVING together in peace and harmony, All for One (Our social compact)!

https://tomorrow.city/a/fujisawa-sustainable-smart-town

https://www.dutchhousingpolicy.nl/topics/sustainable-households

https://www.turnerandtownsend.com/en/perspectives/the-netherlands-how-to-build-a-million-sustainable-homes/

[7:00 pm, 26/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

=====

REACH 397 - What are your views on the new beverage container return scheme? 

(SK)

21 Sep 2022 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[10:01 am, 21/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10.10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind: 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment.

4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.

5. Let’s protect each other’s privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

[10:12 am, 21/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

By mid-2024, consumers seeking to quench their thirst from a canned or bottled drink will likely have to fork out 10 to 20 cents more.

However, this extra cost can be redeemed if consumers return their empty bottles and cans for recycling at any of the beverage container return points islandwide.

💬 What are your views on the new beverage container return scheme?

The new beverage container return scheme proposed by the National Environment Agency (NEA) was announced on 20 Sep (Tues).

Under the proposed scheme, a small deposit of between 10 cents and 20 cents will be added to the price of all pre-packaged drinks in plastic bottles and metal cans between 150ml and 3 litres.

Drinks will be labelled with a deposit mark and consumers can claim a refund of the deposits when they return their empty beverage containers to a return point. This redemption will likely be in the form of cash or digital transfer.

Return points will be set up at all supermarkets that are larger than 200 sq m. Other possible return locations include convenience stores and community centres.

The proposed scheme comes after extensive public engagement and aims to increase the recycling rate of beverage containers in Singapore to 80 per cent.

Public feedback is sought on the deposit amount, where the refund points should be and how the deposit should be refunded, among other things. Feedback can be given on the REACH website: 

https://go.gov.sg/nea-bcrs

👉 https://str.sg/wK98

👉 https://str.sg/wQUT

----

[10:14 am, 21/09/2022] +Caleb: Like that still need to wash the bottle first before can recycle?

[10:15 am, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: How does the 20c get returned? not by coins I hope. That would be terribly inefficient.

[10:19 am, 21/09/2022] +Timothy Low: Will there be automated machines installed around the island so that the returns can be done more efficiently?

Perhaps can tie up with local banks or Grab or Google Pay so that the deposit returned can be immediately credited into Paylah, Google Pay, Grabpay or Paynow into bank account directly?

For those deposits collected and not claimed, what is NEA going to do with the money?

[10:22 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: To ensure this initiative is successful and sustainable, 400 collection points with only 1 unit of collector might not be sufficient. There need more machine in a popular area (unless the vendor clear the stock in hours daily and during the weekend)

[10:23 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: The project team need to evaluate all possible scenario and address the limitation, risk and overcome these before launching for a guaranteed successful initial

[10:26 am, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: BTW - I'm happy to see this initiative, but hope it is set up for success and not a waste of money and effort.

[10:30 am, 21/09/2022] +Stella Yip: Buy, drink, cannot put in recycle bin immediately, need to go find  a nearby toilet to wash first? Or will G provide a washing area at to the collection place?

[10:31 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: I am quoting an example:- there was a recycling initiative in the past with a collector machine installed and operating in a mall to collect plastic bottles. It was discontinued after a period of operation, and no detail about where is the nearby machine available. 

At the time, The machine could not cope with high demand and failed to serve residents. Plastic bottles that the machine fails to accept are then thrown into general waste Dustin nearby.

[10:33 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Spent 20-30 cents go a public toilet to wash and search for the machine @ nearby?

[10:33 am, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: not realistic to expect people to wash and not efficient either

[10:34 am, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: best to wash all bottles at once as part of recycling process

[10:34 am, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: problem is that soda drinks will attract bugs

[10:34 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: I don't remember it is a practice to wash it when in state or other countries except in Japan. Can someone please enlighten me on this topic?

[10:34 am, 21/09/2022] +Linda Seng: Not everybody is willing to wash the canned or bottled drink if the machines are far away to return. They will rather drink finish and drop away at the nearby dustbin

[10:35 am, 21/09/2022] +Linda Seng: good point here

[10:36 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Attract bug inside the machine? How frequent will the vendor collect the recycle items? Once a month?

[10:37 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: If bottles are kept not really a issue… I would say min..

[10:39 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: In Taiwan you see they clean the straws and clean chop sticks.. lol it about education and mindset I guess

[10:39 am, 21/09/2022] +typing: No need to wash - they get melted down.

[10:40 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Cause cannot crush.. empty bottle take up space. 

Waste energy to crush every bottle every time as well.. lol 

First world problems for automation

[10:41 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: But where to wash it? Will consumer rush to rinse before recycling or throw it in the dustbin after being consumed in Singapore, realistically speaking, if there is no law mandating it?

[10:41 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Actually they will wash is after the cutting phase… the residue affects recycling quality

[10:42 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Part of the process in recycling

[10:42 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Is the food scraps or random stuff people add into the bottle will be a recycling problem

[10:43 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Empty bottle not wash no big deal… but if full bottle will affect transportation of the recycling material.. unwanted weight to transport rubbish to the centre for recycling

[10:44 am, 21/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Currently there is recycling machine around the island that consumers can exchange for points and rewards. Have to see data if it is working well

[10:44 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Of course washing helps to reduce the need for more water to clean the bottles… in turns reduce the effort to wash with more water

[10:45 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Is more of getting the culture there before we go into the details

[10:45 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: This is another scenario the project team needs to consider

[10:45 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: This still exists? Wow

[10:46 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: When got money I remembered it being very successful 🤣

[10:46 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: The example I quote is part of this I think

[10:46 am, 21/09/2022] +Linda Seng: yes still exists

[10:47 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Marvelous. 👍👏👏

[10:47 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: The parkway outside the NTUC one always see people bring big bag over

[10:47 am, 21/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Yes

[10:48 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: The can ones makes more sense in terms of profit.. plastic a bit too low in recycle value

[10:48 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Cultural change may take years to cultivate

[10:48 am, 21/09/2022] +Uncle Law: I used them regularly

[10:48 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Wah

[10:49 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: No more in my area. I didn't see it after it was removed

[10:51 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Hence, it is bringing up a point for consideration, is 400 sufficient islandwide? Or will other vendors collect these bottles and send them to 400 machines for recycling?

[10:51 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: That was years ago.. didn’t visit there for awhile..

[10:52 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: To be frank not very profitable… if not you see companies queue to take it in…

[10:52 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Yea, sad as recycling a good initiative

[10:52 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Till plastic price gets too high… or oil gets high enough for the business to make sense

[10:52 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: The gap now still a bit wide

[10:55 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: https://www.greenvinesustainable.com/blog/canned-water-vs-bottled-water

[10:55 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: alumnimum content.jpeg

[10:56 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Recycling is for sustainability, but I am not sure the 10-20-30 cents per bottle can attract vendors to achieve a successful aim. Agencies need to do more to make this project successful and become the beacon of light along ASEAN countries on recycling

[10:58 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: To you is small… but you work out the maths it makes sense

[10:58 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: 80-91 per barrel of crude oil and advancement of tech in the petrol chemistry industry, I don't think the plastic material cost is high.

[10:58 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: One bottle is about 12 g.. so 1 kg get about 80 bottles. Which means 1 kg you get $8 roughly

[10:59 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: One ton without selling value you get $8000/ton

[10:59 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Plastic is about $1000/ton

[10:59 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Great, the pull factor for vendors is there, hence their service level should be marked to market

[10:59 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Recycled value

[11:00 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: PE/PP range around $1600 to $2200/ton

[11:00 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Recycled is $1000/ton or less… or off grade material can go as low as $500/ton

[11:02 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: So 10cent makes perfect economy sense for vendors.. but the country still not ready. 

So more effort on vendor side to make it doable… handling so much sorting and dealing with the waste generated from sorting

[11:02 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: So the cost include waste treatment after warehousing, sorting and logistic cost

[11:03 am, 21/09/2022] +Uncle Law: The after collection efforts need to consider

[11:03 am, 21/09/2022] +Uncle Law: Manpower and resources

[11:04 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Recycle of cans, and bottles may need to start everywhere in the office, at home, in the food court, in the mall, in the convenience shop, in the bus station, in MRT etc to cultivate a cultural change

[11:04 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: There can be exclusive deals for incinerator power generators to get slightly higher rate payment from recycling companies for their waste send by them. Or even offer free service to incentivise the effort.

[11:06 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Tax breaks for company or shopping more for having such effort. Reduce based on contributions to the effort

[11:07 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: When money comes in for incentives to reduce waste. Win win for both. No need out of pocket but effort on their end to reduce and get better tax break.

[11:08 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Lesser need for waste disposal on long run. When all have a home to go.

Organic for food recycling 

Plastic for recycling 

Etc

[11:09 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: The label of the drinks (can or bottle) maybe needs to be uniquely printed (aka a birth cert number of the drink). This unique number can be scanned in an app or matched from nea to track in the data pool and used for a refund. The custom authority also can use it for monitoring imports, and IRAS use the exact same data for GST tracking if required.

[11:10 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: That’s abit hard 😅 unless we are FDA. Companies won’t want to be trace to that extent

[11:10 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: FMCG obviously are the biggest contributor of plastic waste

[11:10 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Yea, FDA 😅

[11:11 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Plastic use is expect to double every 5 years…

[11:11 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Not within Singapore… but around the world.. as developing nations get more stuff and demand more imports

[11:12 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Plastic plant open every year… lol

[11:12 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: My company just announced 2 new plant within 3 months.. 

one in Singapore

[11:12 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Collector machine in every 2 -3 block of hdb will ease the pain part of recycling bottle?

[11:13 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Great, more jobs for Singaporean 👍👏👏

[11:13 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Err ok Lar… another 30 to 40 jobs? The rest will be foreign workers 🤣 (60 to 80 more?)

[11:14 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Cause hard labour is tough to hire locals

[11:14 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: And don’t pay high enough

[11:15 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Accumulated number of job created for singsporean will be quite significant 🙏👍🙇‍♂️

[11:16 am, 21/09/2022] +Ken Loh: Government plays a part in getting job… we expecting more from other sectors I guess… 

Sanofi vaccine plant 

Aramco rubber plant 

And many others in the works to come in

[11:18 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Yes, both govt and business are important in creating job 👍👏👏

[11:45 am, 21/09/2022] +SL: Appendix E mainly uses the example of Europe. Why Japan and USA are not in the list?  🤔

[11:50 am, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: 21 September, 2022

To: Our Distinguished Leaders, Renewables Experts (Including Karung Guni) and All Honorable Members

"The Karung Guni Approach Towards Recycling of Consumers' Waste (回收人)"

Where are the Karung Guni (Rag-And-Bone Men)?

Besides aluminium cans, plastic bottles and papers to recycle, there are more things to consider to be included in this good initiative calls recycling. Haulding, may be one little unintended and accidental behavior to happen because there are 'values' in these recycleable items?

How about these Karungs?

All sauce bottles, milk and dairy cartons, all glass and plastic containers commonly found in groceries stores. Home furnitures seller like IKEA should be roped into this initiative too. IKEA could perhaps incentivise customers to bring in used or broken plastic or metal items that are HANDY to carry to the store for a 'token' as a offset to buy new items. How about furnitures? How about other stores similar to IKEA? 

Next is home appliances seller like Gain City and many others, it should also incentivise their customers whom are buying a new TV, Computer, Fridge or Furniture to offset a small token (or free disposal) and carry away the old appliance and deliver the new one in one trip.

Finally, will the policymakers foot these big and bulky appliances back to back with the retailers for a small sum of say $2-$10 per item just to dispose off or better still to recycle and co-recover some money to be put into a 'GREEN piggy bank'? 

Charlie Munger once said, "Show me the incentives and I will show you the outcomes!" Isn't it true and applicable to these two new habits of recycling and renewable

    - - in progress - -

[0:27 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: https://sweden.se/climate/sustainability/swedish-recycling-and-beyond

[0:41 pm, 21/09/2022] +Guillermo Cabeza: I don’t think this scheme to charge a deposit will work very well because most people are not very sensitive to 10 cents compared to the inconvenience of taking (and maybe washing) the can or bottle to the drop off. For example: lunch - is every business going to have a collection box? HDB / condo / landed - how does this  work with current recycling initiatives, or is the rubbish collection charge going to come down to account for items now having value? I’ve never seen overseas friends buy drinks from stores (where they are charged a bottle depo) and then take them back to get the deposit back.

[1:26 pm, 21/09/2022] +KSFoong: Soonest, our hawker centre and community will hv a group of drink cans collector willing to do this job for a living. Many consumers will not bother to keep their cans and bring them to the collection points for the refund.

[1:40 pm, 21/09/2022] +SL: Foreigners who visit Singapore for business, leisure, and stopover may need to register for the refund system, I think, in the future.

[1:53 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: 21 September, 2022

"The Zen Way of Social Etiquettes"

What so Zen?

Japan is a neat and gleem country? The Japanese believe they should be considerate to others.”

What is social consideration? A typical Japanese daily life starts earlier, for instance, office workers and shop staffs area cleaning their place of work!People take their litter home like picking up one's own rubbish. Students and community cleaning initiatives, picking up rubbish near their school together in their neighbourhoods.

By the way of life, no ones blow their noses in public. When people are feeling unwell they either stay home or they wear surgical masks to avoid infecting other people. 

All the above are simple acts of consideration for others. Isn't it worth learning a bit of Zen?

            - - in progress - -

[2:03 pm, 21/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

By mid-2024, consumers seeking to quench their thirst from a canned or bottled drink will likely have to fork out 10 to 20 cents more.

However, this extra cost can be redeemed if consumers return their empty bottles and cans for recycling at any of the beverage container return points islandwide.

💬 What are your views on the new beverage container return scheme?

The new beverage container return scheme proposed by the National Environment Agency (NEA) was announced on 20 Sep (Tues).

Under the proposed scheme, a small deposit of between 10 cents and 20 cents will be added to the price of all pre-packaged drinks in plastic bottles and metal cans between 150ml and 3 litres.

Drinks will be labelled with a deposit mark and consumers can claim a refund of the deposits when they return their empty beverage containers to a return point. This redemption will likely be in the form of cash or digital transfer.

Return points will be set up at all supermarkets that are larger than 200 sq m. Other possible return locations include convenience stores and community centres.

The proposed scheme comes after extensive public engagement and aims to increase the recycling rate of beverage containers in Singapore to 80 per cent.

Public feedback is sought on the deposit amount, where the refund points should be and how the deposit should be refunded, among other things. Feedback can be given on the REACH website: 

https://go.gov.sg/nea-bcrs

👉 https://str.sg/wK98

👉 https://str.sg/wQUT

[2:06 pm, 21/09/2022] +Guillermo Cabeza: agreed - what I meant though is that in my experience these schemes (certain states in the US, Australia, Canada) don’t work. People buy a drink from 7-11 or a vending machine, pay the 10c, and then toss the drink into the rubbish bin.

[2:07 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: The deposit machine should be able to refund in coins and dollars.

One place for such machine is groceries store.

[2:08 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hawker center?

[2:16 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Orchard Road broadwalk, NAC and Paragon area? Is the machine weather proof? 

Shopping mall Car park especially there is a big groceries store in that Mall.

[2:18 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: People's Park and Tekka vicinities?

[2:20 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Geylang Serai area

[2:25 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: Shd place the collection machine next to the dispensing one.

More convenient.

Or hv a 2-in-1 machine.

Buy, drink, dispose, collect refund.

All in one.

[2:30 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: It wud be extremely inconvenient if ...

... I hv to lug more than 1kg of used bottles & cans to wherever the mc is in order to claim my 10 cents per can/bott.

... The cost of my taking it ther (not to mention my physical constraints due to back injury - cannot lift heavy objects nor carry for long distance) is not justifiable for me.

... I wud just dump it in the blue recycling bin downstairs of my block!

... Wat if the recycling bin /depo refund mc is over full or runs out of change? 

... Who is gg to manage the frequency of collection of the used cans/bottles?

... Who is responsible for topping up the mc w change ?

[2:32 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: Ther has to be better alternative ways to encourage us to recycle more.

This proposal is too cumbersome! 😅

And may not last.

[2:33 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi,

Use technologies to scan the locations and the available machines (filled ones would be reflected and of cos real time..

These machines come with CCTV too!

[2:33 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: Look at the Return Tray initiative launched one year ago.

Is ther any review ?

Wat is the result?

I see ppl revert to their old habits in some places, leaving their trays behind.

[2:36 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi RH, good point raised.

There will always be forgetful folks and lazy (simply bochap) folks too.

How about situations whereby be seniors just could not return those used utensils?

[2:41 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: How about our younger folks? Are they abiding this habit after finished eating in public?

Will fine suffice and erase such bad habit?

[2:42 pm, 21/09/2022] +SL: Yes, in the offices/restaurants/ mall, there got recycle bins. Observed that Ppl tend to throw away cans/bottles in general waste Dustbin if recycle bin is not nearby.

[2:43 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: How about those offenders,  hawker center cleaner for a day?

[2:43 pm, 21/09/2022] +SL: Coins and dollars maybe run out fast in popular location

[2:45 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi SL, good instinct.

Let the machine contains up to $500? 

After all, there is a limit (capacity) to contain these cans and bottles, isn't it?

[2:51 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Most importantly, this initiative (the process) must be FUN and rewarding (refundable) too.

"To change an old (any) habit, not only you need more than one new habit. You need to have a couple positive conditionings to achieve and erase prior bad habits."

- - annoymous

[2:52 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: I actually witnessed able bodied cit , both young & old , walking away & leaving their trays behind.

All the rest u mentioned who r not able, r excepted .

[2:53 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Fun is a positivity.

Refund is one condition.

Complex, Confusion and frustration are negativities!

[2:53 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Bad social habit...

[2:54 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Pls use Pavlov theory to amend tangibles and intangibles...

[2:54 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: Lol.

[2:55 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: Good idea.

Community service instead of monetary penalty.

Helps change mindset as one gains new perspective fr other side.

[2:55 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Access to machine is another condition.

[2:57 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: "Only kena hawker centre cleaning",

one learns and appreciates a clean environment and the tough chores of a cleaner too!

[2:59 pm, 21/09/2022] +SL: Not sure will the Collector replenish the dollar and cents at the same time they empty the machine

[2:59 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: How abt making clean up a national initiative once a month or qtr, sth like tt, to increase involvement & awareness?

CC, RC, PA, grassroots org can take the initiative.

Hv the clean up on a regular basis. Get residents to also bring their trash to recycle.

Make it a fun family recycling day ...

[3:00 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: Good enuff for a start. 👍🏻

Esp for ppl who hardly get their hands "dirty" these days ....

[3:01 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Is true!

Half of Singapore can afford paying fines but sure enough they would be very "pemalu" to be a cleaner for a day at the hawker center!

Isn't this true?

[3:02 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: Yup yup!

Esp if u suddenly spot yr fren, nbr, colleague sitting ther, watching u.

Alamak! ☺️

[3:03 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: On the lighter tone,   take this punishment as a community service and be considerate to many too!

Is it too much to enact such punishment for the "simply bochap" folks of any age?

[3:04 pm, 21/09/2022] +Caleb: Got to reg for paynow also. For cashless transaction payments

[3:11 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Caleb, good point!

Are these negative or positive attributes for our foreign guests?

Efficient?

[3:15 pm, 21/09/2022] +Caleb: Got to see the onboarding process. I know NETS is working with some countries to accept payment and we can use it on their country too.

[3:18 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Initial thoughts about recycling the beverage containers

1. When I hear the news yesterday about the container return scheme - 1st thought come to mind - won't it cause alot of inconvenience to the public?

a. Workers, students, shoppers who eat out in food court, hawker centre, fast food, restaurants etc need to carry their containers to a central place - queue up likely to be a long queue in crowded areas just to get a refund for their drink containers.

b. Housewives and elderly retirees at home need to accumulate the containers and then weekly, bi-weekly or monthly lug a big bag of containers to the supermarkets, cc or convenience store to join a long queue to get refund.

Wonder what if the refund machines run out of coins or notes or breakdown - and then they will have to lug their big bag home.

And all household now will have a secondary role of becoming a "garang guni" men or women - because if these containers accumulate - household become a hoaders - and if the containers are not wash - it will attract alot of ants, cockroaches and other pest.

Honestly, my initial feelings is quite unpleasant.

2. Then I happen to read a few articles about the dire consequences of global climate that have been affecting many Countries recently, from Asia, to Europe, to US, to Africa, to Middle East, to S America.

Droughts, dry up rivers, seas, flood, tornado, earthquake, extreme high temperatures exceeding 40 to 50 degree celsius etc that have been hitting many Countries - trouble my thoughts.

a. However, I start to rationalise, what effects that Singapore do will make the Global Climate improve --- being a little red dot and being a population of less than 6 million?

Is it worth our effort of recycling the containers?

3. Then supramundane thoughts arise :-

a. Even though what we do in our little red dot - by the definition of and computation from science and math - will have not much effect on improving the Global Climate - we need to do the right thing, conform to the right values --- so that we will reap good outcomes and act as catalyst for other Countries to follow the good examples.

If every Countries do the same, then waste can be cut down and containers can be recycle for reuse - and these will have a positive impact on the Global Climate.

b. When this happens, the World will improve on the carbon emission, less pollution to the sea, envrionment, landfill to hold the waste etc - and the World will face less extreme climate, less drought and flood - and crops can grow to feed the World population.

4. The vicious cycle of karma - will rectify by itself if every Countries and population do the right things.

5. An overnight thoughts plus my close friend comments :-

"Personally, I'm ok with the proposal. I practised re- cycling for several years. Just not sure if the general population are willing to do it."

"Question is will you do it? I'm always the one in the family collecting and consolidating recyclables and another household member bring them to recycle bin. It's a habit to cultivate."

My comments :- "I need to change my habit. Later I will pen down my thoughts."

====

[3:23 pm, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: Please be careful of the gender bias:

[3:24 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: Housewife and Househusband.

[3:24 pm, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: 🙏

[3:49 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Pitfalls and ways to make recycling containers convenience and successful

1. Working people, students, travellers, shoppers etc eating in food courts, hawkers centre, f&b, restaurants, school canteen etc --- will be unproductive for them to go to a central location and join a long queue to get their refund from a vending machine.

Some may fidget on the machine trying to learn how to use the machine or the machine run out of coins or notes or breakdown unable to refund.

Do we expect these people to carry one or a few reused containers on their hands back to office, classrooms, shoppers, travellers carry them around doing shopping or bring it home or to hotels ---- like "garang guni" men or women?

Soln :- Upon completed drinking, they will just need to return to the drink stall to exchange their containers with the stall owners and get a refund.

The stall owners upon collection - at the end of the days - a recycle company will collect from the drink stalls for recycling at no cost (as the recycling company can earn by recycling the containers and resell the containers).

In these way, drink stall owners no need to queue at the refund machine - to refund hundreds of used containers on behalf of their customers.

[4:11 pm, 21/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

By mid-2024, consumers seeking to quench their thirst from a canned or bottled drink will likely have to fork out 10 to 20 cents more.

However, this extra cost can be redeemed if consumers return their empty bottles and cans for recycling at any of the beverage container return points islandwide.

💬 What are your views on the new beverage container return scheme?

The new beverage container return scheme proposed by the National Environment Agency (NEA) was announced on 20 Sep (Tues).

Under the proposed scheme, a small deposit of between 10 cents and 20 cents will be added to the price of all pre-packaged drinks in plastic bottles and metal cans between 150ml and 3 litres.

Drinks will be labelled with a deposit mark and consumers can claim a…

[4:12 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

2. Housewives, Househusbands, Elderly retirees (men or women) - will have to play an additional role of :-

a. Making sufficient spaces at home to collect reusable containers for recycling.

At the same time, ensure that the recycled containers will not accumulate to a point that it take up too much spaces at home, become a hoarder of waste and worst result in a fire hazard.

b. Wash and rinse the resued containers at home to ensure it will not pose a hygiene risk - attracting ants, cockroaches, lizard, mosquitoes, houseflies ro other pests.

c. Household will need to ensure they buy a large bag to bring the reused containers to a central location such as supermarket, CC, or convenience store to put in the reused container one-by-one to get the refund - hopefully the refund machine got sufficient coins, notes or will not breakdown.

My nearest supermarket is 1 km away. Once this supermarket is doing a renovation for 1 month - I got to lug my trolley 5 km away for the next nearest supermarket. 

So if the refund machine breakdown --- and cannot refund, it means they will have to lug it back home --- follow by "don't know how many letter words"....

Soln :-

a. The best is for refund machine to be place in every HDB block -- if too costly, can be every 2 or 3 blocks per HDB, private condos, or landed houses per one refund machine.

These will make it convenient for household to refund their reused containers as household will only need to walk down to the nearest block with refund machine.

Also it will cut down the long queues unlike needing to go to a central location - km away.

If one break down in the block, household only need to walk to the nearest few block away to refund their containers.

Unlike if refund machine breakdown in a supermarket, CC or convenience store --- got to walk 5 km away to the next nearest supermarket, CC or convenience store.

Even if the supermarket, CC or convenience store are nearby, the whole precint household congregate over the weekend to refund their reused containers --- long queues will form.

Also how many refund machines are expected in one vicinity to cut short the queues?

[4:25 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. In addition, spaces is limited and very compact in a supermarket or convenience store, even the CC.

- There are many queues to pay the cashier and self check out counters, got toto/4D queues - that encroach into shopping shelves space.

Now with queues for reused containers - carrying big and bulky bag --- how much spaces left for shoppers?

- This will be worst for convenience stores - whose space are even more limited. People carrying big bag to refund reused containers - will choke up the convenience store (outside and inside) --- and shoppers will have little space.

- CCs have people queueing up to sign up for activities, previously long queues for vaccination, queues for collecting cash vouchers etc 

Now another long queues congregate with people with big bags to refund reused containers.

I am talking about a precint all congregating towards the CC in weekend or weekdays - one CC per town.

*Also one important consideration, what is the capacity of the refund machine? 

Can it hold one hundred containers?

What happen if few hundred or thousand containers need to be refund?

If full, will people need to lug their big bag around searching another places for refund?*

2. So unless the refund machines is distributed conveniently - few blocks HDB, condo or private houses --- recycling of beverage containers will be more successful and more convenient for the public.

But it come with cost - because I believe the refund machine is not cheap. 

Wonder who foot the bill?

[4:26 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. In addition, spaces is limited and very compact in a supermarket or convenience store, even the CC.

- There are many queues to pay the cashier and self check out counters, got toto/4D queues - that encroach into shopping shelves space.

Now with queues for reused containers - carrying big and bulky bag --- how much spaces left for shoppers?

- This will be worst for convenience stores - whose space are even more limited. People carrying big bag to refund reused containers - will choke up the convenience stors (outside and inside) --- and shoppers will have little space.

- CCs have people queueing up to sign up for activities, previously long queues for vaccination, queues for collecting cash vouchers etc 

Now another long queues congregate with people with big bags to refund reused containers.

I am talking about a precint all congregating towards the CC in weekend or weekdays - one CC per town.

Also one important consideration, what is the capacity of the refund machine?

Can it hold one hundred containers?

What happen if few hundred or thousand containers need to be refund?

If full, will people need to lug their big bag around searching another places for refund?

2. So unless the refund machines is distributed conveniently - few blocks HDB, condo or private houses --- recycling of beverage containers will be more successful and more convenient for the public.

But it come with cost - because I believe the refund machine is not cheap. 

Wonder who foot the bill?

[4:29 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: 21 September, 2022

"Everyone becoming One (我看你这样做，我也跟着乐一乐)"

What If?

Should a society turning towards a healthy 'Karung Guni'

behavior, what's wrong and what's going to happen next?

Perhaps and hopefully all will learn the concepts of usefulness, wastefulness and reusing things for a longer time before disposing them?

So how?

As for those recycling 'vending' machines, it work simply by throwing cans or bottles into a big inlet hole, after machine counts, out comes the refunded money in dollars or cents.

So what?

When many of these receiving machines malfunctioning for whatsoever reasons (full, no power, no money, breakdown-mechanical and/or electronics) so what should  civic minded people do?

Definitely don't kick or shake the machine! Simply go bac…

[4:29 pm, 21/09/2022] +RH: Qn:  I m very concerned as flw..

** Is having more machines being environmentally friendly?

** wat happpens to these machines if they r no longer in use or upgraded in future?

[5:09 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Basically if people need to lug big bags to a far location to refund their beverage containers.

2. Stuck in long queues for hour(s) to get their refund - over weekend or weekdays.

People can better spend their time in better things then stuck in the queue or travel far distance to refund the containers.

It will be a failed project and inconvenience the public.

It has to be convenient, nearby, easy to refund and not stuck in queues.

[5:11 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Just a note.

My nearest supermarket is at least 1 km away.

The nearest cc is even further away.

[5:12 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

My relatives supermarket and CC are few km away.

[5:13 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: “NOT ALL OF US CAN DO GREAT THINGS. BUT WE CAN DO SMALL THINGS WITH GREAT LOVE.” 

- - MOTHER TERESA

[5:21 pm, 21/09/2022] +Rama: Agree

[5:39 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hello Andrew, how are you?

[5:44 pm, 21/09/2022] +Rama: Surviving

[5:44 pm, 21/09/2022] +Rama: You?

[5:48 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Wait and see how Mr Putin next steps go, otherwise Great too!

[5:54 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心:

Now recycling bin is downstairs in every HDB block.

People who want to recycle just bring their containers down and dump it in after sorted out at home.

But this refund machine is a totally different dimensions.

Also it is found only in central areas far away from home.

[5:54 pm, 21/09/2022] +Rama: Good poker game he is playing!

[5:57 pm, 21/09/2022] +SL: Russia just announced the mobilization of 300k personnel to contain nuclear blackmail.

[5:58 pm, 21/09/2022] +Rama: Èx convict!

[5:58 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Hi Danni,

Perhaps, one could also see the urgency to faster this Recycling mindset to more locations and accessible too.

Remember we have a 2030 Green plan that is counting down...

[5:59 pm, 21/09/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Well NEA will have to consider all the feedback before implementation.

[6:00 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: Multi ministries approach and perhaps MSW heading it?

[6:03 pm, 21/09/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

By mid-2024, consumers seeking to quench their thirst from a canned or bottled drink will likely have to fork out 10 to 20 cents more.

However, this extra cost can be redeemed if consumers return their empty bottles and cans for recycling at any of the beverage container return points islandwide.

💬 What are your views on the new beverage container return scheme?

The new beverage container return scheme proposed by the National Environment Agency (NEA) was announced on 20 Sep (Tues).

Under the proposed scheme, a small deposit of between 10 cents and 20 cents will be added to the price of all pre-packaged drinks in plastic bottles and metal cans between 150ml and 3 litres.

Drinks will be labelled with a deposit mark and consumers can claim a…

[6:05 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: More than 3 decades, in the US, there are machines taking in  beer and soda cans for Quarters (25¢). One big black disposal bag will yield closed to US$5.

So where to find so many drank cans?

University dorms especially on Sunday mornings(those uni kids are drunk and hangovers)!

That's one trick of this Recycling game for underfunded/self funded students to tap into..... those FUN days!

[6:26 pm, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/sep/21/children-as-young-as-nine-say-they-are-ill-from-work-recycling-plastic-in-turkey?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[6:26 pm, 21/09/2022] +L or BL or Locker: Need to be careful where we send our plastic for recycling

[6:45 pm, 21/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

[6:59 pm, 21/09/2022] +Smiley face: 21 September, 2022

To: Our Distinguished Leaders, Green Experts and All Honorable Members

"Leaders do make mistakes"

Mistakes & Breakthroughs:

Recalling decades ago, Morris Chang, founder of TSMC,"the learning curve cost perhaps is one big success and breakthroughs for us..." 

Likewise Nicholas Negroponte, the founder of MIT Media Lab once said in 1990s that "the valuation of a bit is determined in large part by it's ability to be used over and over again..."

By applying two proven methods, can we also think the same for the future of recyclings and Green ways?

    - - in progress - -

[7:01 pm, 21/09/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

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