REACH 303 - What are your views on the latest property cooling measures to keep housing affordable for Singaporeans? (SK)

17 Dec 2021 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:43 am, 17/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

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[10:00 am, 17/12/2021] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢 

A sustained rise in property prices despite the Covid-19 pandemic has prompted the authorities to introduce cooling measures from 16 Dec (Thu) that will see property buyers paying higher stamp duties.

Minister for National Development Desmond Lee said the new measures are aimed at addressing both the demand and supply of housing, and will help to support a stable and sustainable property market in the medium term, and also ensure that housing remains affordable for Singaporeans. 

He noted a clear upward trend in prices and transaction volumes despite the near-term uncertainty about Covid-19. "Left unchecked, prices are likely to run ahead of economic fundamentals. This will increase the risk of a destabilising correction later on that will hurt many households," he added.

💬 What are your views on the latest property cooling measures to keep housing affordable for Singaporeans? Are you a prospective home buyer? If so, how have the measures impacted you? 

📌 What you need to know about the new property-cooling measures: https://str.sg/3YGY

The additional buyer's stamp duty (ABSD) that must be paid for purchases of residential properties will be raised from 12 per cent to 17 per cent for citizens buying their second residential property, and from 15 per cent to 25 per cent for those buying their third and subsequent properties. PRs and foreigners buying their second residential properties will also see increases from 15 to 25 per cent and 20 to 30 per cent respectively.

The total debt servicing ratio (TDSR) for borrowers will also be tightened from 60 per cent to 55 per cent. The TDSR limits the amount that a person can spend on monthly debt repayments.

HDB loans will also be lowered from 90 per cent to 85 per cent of a property's purchase price. This will apply to those buying a new flat in HDB's sales exercises launched from Dec 16 onwards, as well as to resale flat buyers, specifically for complete resale applications that are received by HDB from Dec 16 onwards.

To cater to genuine demand from home buyers and address their anxieties, the supply in both the private and public housing markets will be increased, with up to 23,000 Build-To-Order (BTO) flats to be launched each year in 2022 and 2023.

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3Y5k

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3YGV

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3Yfx

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3YGC

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[10:24 am, 17/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Interest rate poise to increase in 2022.

2. Fed announce 3 rate hikes in 2022, the 1st likely to be in May 2022 and tapering of mass bond purchases.

3. Hence the measures to cool property purchase price come timely - to prevent buyers from over borrowing and laden with high debt and the need to service higher interest.

4. This is to preempt housing bubble to form and break like what happen in China property sectors as well as US previous subprime housing crisis - that trigger global financial and economic recession.

[10:32 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: Would also be interesting to explore a property inheritance tax being introduced, perhaps only when there is more than 1 property, or the inheritee already owns a property.

[10:33 am, 17/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

5. Introducing cooling measures now, will also protect our banks and financial institutions from overexposure to eager borrowers who may overborrow but unable to repay debts or default - when our economy, business and jobs are still recovering from the pandemic.

6. Hence at macro level and micro level, the cooling measures come timely to prevent housing bubble from forming and subsequently bursting.

[10:41 am, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: I welcome All the cooling measurers.

But i feel still not enough to cool Hdb market!

Even though Now many people end up selling HDB if they want to buy to Private, many Will still.hold on to it.

I was expecting Some more like Restricting SPRs for 5 years instaed of current 3 years waiting.

As when locals paying hefty Taxes to own multiple properties, many PRs holds hdb and Invests in their own countries happily. 

And as i said before i am not sure how many Cases HDB has found where PRs holds properties else where and Still buys HDB here, despite the rule states that one can not buy HDB if they own any Real property else where in the world!

Apart from this i totally support new cooling measures

[10:50 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: and maybe this property inheritance tax only applies to non-Citizens to reduce money flow out of Singapore.

[11:03 am, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Also Many PRs who left country are still.holding on HDBs ..

But rule says otherwise

Sometimes agents like me are suffering who follow rules strictly!

[11:06 am, 17/12/2021] +JC: I agree with the cooling measures but there should be stronger measures to tax the inflow of money from overseas into our property market. 

One of main drivers of local property prices is because many foreigners are looking to "park" their money (sometimes of questionable sources) in Singapore via the private market. This creates a trickle down effect which feeds itself and creates a bubble due to understandable FOMO mindset. 

We should treat this issue much more seriously as it can create significant social-economic divide in Singapore in the longer run and encourages capital/manpower into rent-seeking, non-productive side of the economy.

[11:11 am, 17/12/2021] +No evil: PRs status should be forfeited if a person is away from spore more than a certain period.

[11:13 am, 17/12/2021] +Anthony: The only way to make it more affordable HDB flat, must be equally the same no matter downtown area or new housing estate,

All liased in HDB board & Government once set a example & implement that idealogy 

Price wil sure go down well ,

It's time for our People mindset mustdrastically change, otherwise this wil happens again in our lifetime to see booming price for our HDB resale flat

[11:13 am, 17/12/2021] +Timothy Low: I agree with all the cooling measures except on that part on TDSR. It will be very difficult for the younger generation to afford a house at a earlier stage.

[11:15 am, 17/12/2021] +No evil: Some PR are renting out their apartments here but in fact they are staying in their own country. 

Another form of revenue for them.

[11:21 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: And perhaps when they want to unpack their money there is a risk of a housing price crash....?

[11:22 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: It is. PR has to he renewed every 5 years. Cannot renew if not in the country and/or not employed by a Singapore company.

[11:22 am, 17/12/2021] +JC: Which is a wonderful cooling measure 🤣

[11:23 am, 17/12/2021] +RH: Agree. 

Younger gen buying house for 1st time shd hv additional help or additional subsidy to purchase their first home,  be it BTO or Resale. 

For those who hv only started out in their jobs for 3 years or so and wanting to settle down, these cooling measures only serve to move the line further from attaining their goal. 

Whatever happened to making HDB flats 'affordable' for 'everyone' ?

As for Resale, the pricing index may be a guide for home buyers but at the rate the sellers set their prices,  it's ridiculous to see homes gg for a million dollars!  

One shd not be profiting fr an HDB flat,  since the concept behind this is for every Singaporean to hv a roof over their heads. 

Ther shd be a "recommended price" Cap (?) if possible,  for various HDB flat types & in different estates...  

Perhaps this can also help curb the selling price of Resale flats from getting over inflated (esp thru the seller's greed).

[11:23 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: A bit dramatic maybe! A cool breeze rather than a snowstorm is preferable. 😁

[11:24 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: It's not always greed, if the seller want to move then the place they are buying will also have risen in cost.

[11:24 am, 17/12/2021] +JC: I feel SG is getting too reliant on speculative money.

[11:26 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: Economies are all now driven by debt and credit (thank the US in 1971 for that!) We can get back to better Economic policies by slowly, cautiously adopting crypto currency and decentralised finance. 👍

[11:26 am, 17/12/2021] +JC: I think we need to brace for short term pain for long term sustainability. Otherwise, piece meal measures might not do e trick.

[11:29 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: Yes, my reservation is that we are in unpredictable economic times. The impact of covid is perhaps only just starting.

[11:29 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: I fear it will be brutal.

[11:30 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: There is no way such a global catastrophe will not have huge economic impact.

[11:30 am, 17/12/2021] +JC: Wah that's out of my wheelhouse 😅 but yes hoping for a more sensible future, where manpower/talent/money are directed to more productive areas rather than to speculative/rent-seeking areas

[11:30 am, 17/12/2021] +No evil: Some PR are holding on to their status even though they are settled abroad. 

They travel here to renew their PR status by paying a sum to agent company - a loophole the authorities should look into

[11:30 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: 👍

[11:30 am, 17/12/2021] +BL: Yes indeed!

[11:39 am, 17/12/2021] +RH: Gov building more houses to ease housing supply ....

... except tt when this happens,  the gov dictates where they want to build. 

Unfortunately,  it is announced tt the new sites being looked at are in Jurong / Tengah / Kallang. 

To me,  one is too far West (me live in East),  one is an experimental town tt gov wants to play with, the last is in town area wher the price of the flats is gg to be higher than the rest (and therefore make money for gov?)  ...

Wat abt devt in the East,  where I live.  My son has bn trying to get a BTO near me but ther r no new BTO Devt here, or very limited. 

From wat I hv observed,  the gov seems to be focussing more on Land Sales here in the East...  Build more condos here,  rather than hv more HDB in this locale. 

"Increasing housing supply" sounds nice,  but Not when the houses are not in our location of choice!  

So,  how can u (gov) expect young ppl to take up these new housing in an area tt they r not comfortable with,  and where they cannot afford to buy,  without the gov subsidies 

since the young ppl r just starting out in their jobs, 

and their parents live in the East (proximity grant), which they cannot tap into if they buy ur BTO in the abv mentioned estates tt u r gg to build? 

I m sure ther r many equally frustrated young buyers, in similar situation like my son,  who wud like a solution to this dilemma. 

Can the Gov look into this & perhaps gv us a solution? 

(Resale flats are off since the prices r way too high at the mo). 

Part of the reason to buy BTO is becoz the young people's financial resources r limited but needs time to grow, as they grow into their jobs.

[1:07 pm, 17/12/2021] +Boon: Dear REACH, the latest cooling measures - including TDSR - are appropriate and reasonable 👍. Commendable that the govt agencies have decisively moved (with warnings as far away as 6 months ago) to rein in this growing cost for families and the society, that is also big money for the developers.

[1:11 pm, 17/12/2021] +Boon: What is “affordable” though? The prices  between HDB flats and private ones have continued to blur - with million dollars HDB flats not an uncommon news.

[1:20 pm, 17/12/2021] +Boon: “Affordability” is important because it concerns mortgages taken and paid by disposable income and CPF - which impacts consumption, retirement abilities and welfare needs. The profits earned by the property industry and by those who can afford cannot be at the expense of a poorer govt or society.

[1:22 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: The major issue now is As Govt Encouraging to buy only Newer or Units with Long lease, 

Crazily prices gone higher for JUST MOP FLATS.

Where as many Places older flat especially less than 60 years leade unable to sell, or make any profit.

I believe this is the wrong move.

Every one Wants New and long leases, actually now HDB price increased also only in that segement.

Rest all prices not increased that much

[1:22 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: IMO biggest mistake is Putting Cpf rule for HDBs 

For Less lease.

[1:23 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: I suggest Govt To reconsider this, 

Just because Few prople wants to bet on ENBLOC penalising majority is a huge mistake.

[1:31 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: The housing policies is not helping the singles… as the population of single gets bigger… hopefully it won’t translate to votes swings

[1:31 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: To me it not helping at all, why marriage have to be the consideration to get a public housing paid by all tax payers

[1:36 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: I do wonder if the additional housing was inclusive of singles?

And how the govt will ensure the singles will not be marginalized

[1:40 pm, 17/12/2021] +RH: My concern also.

[2:24 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: Hard to find a private flat for a million though.... a few $1m HDB maybe but that's v rare.

[2:25 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: Interesting point. What happens when lenses start to run out and/or hdb cannot be sold because lease is too short. How does someone move without buying a second home and renting out the first?

[2:26 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: Yea, this is v old fashioned. Build more suitable for singles and sharers.

[2:28 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: Actually the govt can't babysit everyone on these details right? Buyers should be aware of the remaining lease on each property and assess their willingness to pay accordingly. If they buy a property that has a short remaining lease and have problems reselling it, it's not exactly the govt (and taxpayers') problem!

[2:48 pm, 17/12/2021] +Riviere Condo: Got a few

[2:50 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: If someone bought a property years ago and the lease now has 20 years left they won't be able to sell it. If they need to move, for example to be near kids, then what do they do?

[2:50 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: 👍

[2:51 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: If the theory is that gov can't babysit people then just leave it all to all to the market. Do you think they should scrap HDB?

[2:55 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: If gov policy is described as "babysitting" why do you agree with cooling measures?

[3:00 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Some owners facing issues because of this policy

Infact we too sufferd

When we bought no such rule, but when we are sellng this rule came.

For us not much loss.. but Many others sufferd/suffering a lot

This Cpf rule infact is VERY UNFAIR for HDB

When Contributing cpf every one feels OA they can use for housing!

But suddenly to cool market Govt brings out something like this...fundamentally not right IMO

(Sorry for my harsh words)

[3:00 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: First of all, there is no such HDB - left with 20yr lease - in Singapore. The oldest HDBs in SG were built in 1960. So, today, it would still have almost 40 years left on the lease. 

Assuming, the owner was in his/her 20s in 1960, he/she would be in his/her 80s already. Does it make sense to move near they kids only now? Or does it make more sense to move in with their kids?

Also, the flat would have cost them less than $20k. More likely than not, fully paid up years ago. 

What else do you want to do? 😂😂😂😂

[3:00 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: It does not have to be binary

[3:01 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: If this rule is from day1 

Or When we strat contributing cpf 

Then Deffinatly yes

[3:01 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: After we buying then They say is like ... I feel Its totally unfair

[3:01 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Policies/rules can't remain unchanged unfortunately

[3:02 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: yeah agree. If the govt were to cater to all these specific needs, then no amount of budget/policies can satisfy everyone.

[3:02 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: And as i said Hdb Prices are not Equally raising in all segment.

There is So much division

Just that as when comes to Data AVGcomes out, many people not fully aware of it...whats happening on the ground.

For condos, Most of the times equally increasing..

[3:03 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: No one can predict into infinity so that the first rule made will be relevant forever.

The consideration is more about relevance. Unfortunately, some will win, while others will lose.

[3:04 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: cos cooling measures are dealing with a macro issue of housing price inflation. It's not implemented to make it easier for everyone to get the flat they want, at the price they want, at the time they want... it's simply to prevent a speculative bubble from forming which would make it harder even for non-speculative homeowners to purchase a home to stay.

[3:04 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Half truth sorry

Many Old flats are occupied by Younger generation as well..

So your calculations only applies to First owner.

There are Many many Owners who bought flats in resale market

[3:05 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Exactly 

I totally agree

But policy should beneift the majority 

Not the other way round

[3:05 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: but isn't that by choice? if young couple buy flat with 60 years remaining lease (and I know of a few personally) - it's a gamble they are willing to take, based on their own personal circumstances.

[3:06 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Example we bought in 2012 Also few of my clinets 

That time no rule

Now want to sell 

Then issue

[3:06 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Also Thats what i am saying Govt encouring everyone to buy Newer newer flats

[3:06 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: ya.. that sux for you guys but if no rule change, then everyone's screwed.

[3:06 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Just Mop flats

[3:07 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: And for these younger generation, they bought in with their eyes open.

If you did not do your homework in advance, and find yourself in a pickle now, why should the Govt and other more prudent people be made to bail u out??

They bought the older/matured estates for the location/convenience etc. They did enjoy it while it lasted didn;t they?

[3:07 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Now majority screwed

[3:07 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: just to clarify... what do you mean by "screwed"?

[3:07 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: And it is not a half truth. It was in response to a very specific scenario that someone painted

[3:08 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: we may not have the same definition haha

[3:09 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: I bot my home around the same time (2011), but as I bot it without the intention to flip/upgrade, the rule changes don't affect me. I assume you guys are looking to sell/upgrade?

[3:09 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Sorry the same meaning of this

[3:10 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: ah, when I say everyone's screwed, I meant runaway housing inflation. 

I think when you say majority screwed, I think you meant, most people can't sell/upgrade easily?

[3:11 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: The Govt had been warning EVERYONE about the property bubble in earnest for about the last 10 years. They even took incremental steps to cool the market. Did these "majority" listen?

Amongst ALL the friends and people I spoke to in the past 10+ years whenever the topic of property came up, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them insisted that property prices in SG will only go up. This is despite the Govt EXPLICITLY warning everyone to re-think and re-calibrate their thinking about SG property. So...whose fault is it?

[3:11 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: It is not about That

I said The differences in price increase is Not same

Meaning What people thinking about HDB prices increased.. 

Is Not the entire truth

[3:12 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: We bought 2 room as that time our salary can only afford that

And later my girl growing up, we have to upgrade

And i believe many people Will come under similar category

[3:13 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: I don;t really get what you are saying...

Are you saying, just because WHAT YOU THOUGHT should happen in the future did not materialise, then it is the GOVT's fault?

[3:14 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: I am talking only about HDB resale here.

And i agree to your View as well

My sentiments also same

[3:15 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: yes, this is what I see in my circle as well.

There are many people who became "unwitting" asset millionaires cos they bought BTO just before the crazy housing price spike back in the 2000s - frees them up to keep flipping property from there on for easy money. 

Younger folks like me missed the boat on that...

[3:17 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: The truth is, the Govt will not be able to save everyone WHEN the property market eventually "corrects".

That is why they had been trying so hard the last 10+ years to warn everyone to be more prudent, and when that still did not work, they put in the cooling measures to restrict and slow down the buying frenzy.

[3:18 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: Maybe all they can afford?

[3:18 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: ugh, that's a tough situation. Thanks for clarifying. 

Are current 4-5 room HDB options now out of reach for your family even with housing grants etc.? 

i guess from a policy level, the best govt can do is to provide more choices for folks like you - in terms of cost/location/size - and also to have some cooling measures so that these choices can remain affordable for u.

[3:19 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: My observation, is that the majority of people actually buy what they can AFFORD TO BORROW, rather than what they can AFFORD.

[3:19 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: And that is the problem

[3:20 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: Yes, this is where gov policy can be effective. Taking care of everyone, not ignoring those who 'missed out'

[3:20 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: hmm that's if they completely have no choice.... but they made choices. Homes with low lease remaining are all resale so means they can't wait for BTO or don't like the BTO choices available. The couples I know bought those flats usually due to family proximity, work proximity and/or hope for en-bloc. At the same price, they can get BTO but they didn't want.

[3:21 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: We can afford also gladly i habe choosen area where i can get for less pricy as i am agent myself.i am talking about other owners

[3:22 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: 👍 that's great... I guess it's all part of the calculation. If you are poor, you have less choices - the govt tries to help a bit but you won't be perfectly happy with the options. 

This applies also to things like healthcare.

[3:23 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: I fully suppory cooling measures 

Stated in the begining as well.. my concern is for Low and middle income families.. For rich if they can afforf multiple properties increase of 5% or 10% Tax does not matter much.

They just take time to digest the new rules and eventually they will be OK to pay that extrq tax... This is what happend before will happen in future as well

[3:24 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Agree... Just that Cpf Rule for HDB i still feel unfair

Instead stop those buying Mutliple Properiets where Rich people using CPF to buy More and more

No point to put this rule for HDB 

As Cpf and HDB fundamental Policy is to make sure every one has roof over head

[3:26 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: I've already given up on being concerned with the rich getting richer... that's almost impossible to avoid. :(

But agree that some exceptions could be made for lower income families to get an acceptable level of public housing for their needs. 

Again, it's like healthcare - if you are poor, govt pay for you for C class ward, can't choose your doctor. Just pray hard that the junior doctor that's assigned to you is capable, but most of the time, they can do the job.

[3:27 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Restrict usgae of CPF for condos 

Not for Hdbs

Regardless of Years of lease left 

This is what i want to convey, When upgrading or downgrading in HDB ITSELF,  theu should not get affected by CPF Rules..

[3:27 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: Interesting idea... worth considering!

[3:27 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Yes...

[3:29 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Yes i hope it happens..

[3:30 pm, 17/12/2021] +JC: I think in general, most people would agree that public housing should be homes and not vehicles to make us rich. 

This was one of the principles govt applied when they came up with the rules for prime location HDB... Perhaps they can extend that to broader policy measures across the board. 

Some of the younger folks without rich parents will find it hard to upgrade but no choice la. Cannot please everyone.

[3:35 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: And they basically increase the rent to cover the extra costs

[3:35 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: Yes, cpf should only be available for single property.

[3:36 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: +1

[3:36 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: Agreed

[3:44 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: +1

[3:51 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Haven't read most of the earlier comments/feedback yet...so excuse duplicate feedback if any...

I think the Govt should seriously consider completely removing the speculative element for HDB housing. There are a few ways (in combination) I think this can be done:

1. Sell low/cheap to eligible buyers - criteria tweaked to support Govt's longer-term goals eg. family formation? More children?

2. Remove speculative element - NDB flats CANNOT be resold. It has to be returned to the Govt if the owner wants to move on. Prices/valuation can be a function of national/official inflation rates + depreciation etc

3. Reduce the lease to only 30 years with corresponding price reduction. Owners can opt (first right of refusal) to extend by purchasing in 30yr terms when…

[3:57 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: For Hdb to be affordable to everyone my suggestions

1. Restrict PRs buying either increasing waiting time from 3to 5years or more.

2. Restrict Rich PRs, with incoming ceiling for Resale HDB  (not all PRs are rich.. ) 

The rich PRs Who buy HDB most of the times own properties else where, also They Keep investing In theor countries

 So Just do not let them Buy HDB at all. 

3. Revoke the plocies regarding Restricting CPF usage for Public housing for Older flats. 

(Those who purposely pay Millions for Older flats for Hoping of Enbloc, ignore them as they are very less in number,)

So plz revoke Cpf restrictions 

4. For HDB 

For PRs

Publish Data (or incidents may hide Persons involved for security reasons(like how they publish Agents Who committer crime)) about PRs who illegally Rent out whole flats and who Didnt sold their flats despite not staying there (for n number of years) and who owns property else where but still buy HDB here with out disclosing it.

This will deffinatly deter rich PRs buying HDB.

5. Hdb should be for the people who really needs it... Increase MOP of new flats all together, or implement wealth tax if sold in Much higher profits.

[3:58 pm, 17/12/2021] +CQ: I agree with your #2 and 3! #4 might be tough because reducing CPF and loan quantum will mean that buyers will need more cash upfront, which will be tough for the young couples who haven't been working for that long.

But yeah, HDB resale generates a huge lottery effect. Just look at the likes of Pinnacle@Duxton. The ones who managed to ballot for a place there really struck toto.

[4:04 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: In the first place, prices went up because it was getting increasingly easier to own it, starting with the changes to CPF to allow it to be used for housing loans, to increasing up to 100% of CPF to be used to service housing loans, to low mortgage rates (which are not controlled by MAS). 

Its exactly the same situation with cars - now we again have financing options that circumvents MAS' restrictions on car loans - and luxury purchases - fueled by unsecured instalment plans and more recently, buy-now-pay-later options.

Everyone is spending tomorrow's projected income, today.

[4:04 pm, 17/12/2021] +Timothy Low: No I don’t agree on this. I as a single need to use CPF to pay for my private apartment, as I’m under the age of 35 and I need to have a place on my own due to personal circumstances. Without the use of CPF I would still be living with my family in a two bedroom hdb flat

[4:05 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: I am saying for multiple Condos restrcit

Not for the One Unit :)

[4:05 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Any one Who bought one to stay should not be penalised ... 

As Cpf also Its the persons hard earned money .

But Allowung it to use for multiple properties is biggest issue

[4:06 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: If EVERYONE cannot use CPF to service the purchase, it means NATIONWIDE, the ability to pay the current (high) prices will have to be adjusted down. Think about it....

[4:07 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Its one the reason why the same product in SG, costs much less just across the border

[4:07 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Prices - beyond cost of production - are dictated by the consumers' ability and willingness to pay

[4:26 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: 👍

[4:28 pm, 17/12/2021] +BL: Agreed.

[4:36 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: 👍

[4:38 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: 👍

[4:40 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: You can't have your cake and eat it too. Want to choose location AND dictate price as well? How does that work? 😂

[4:54 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: I don't know any of these buyers are paid more than a Million for resale HDB flats with 80 years or less lease left, but my guess would be that most of these people are retirees (50,60, 70yo?) who cashed out on their multi-million $ properties.

Imagine you are 60yo, kids all grown up, have their own families and moved out of your 2000/3000sqft, 30yo FH condo/landed home.

Now left with old couple, that amount of space is no longer feasible, in fact, hard to maintain.

Seeing that most condos are transacting at 1500psf or more, it makes sense to cash out and collect 4-5 million by selling.

Being used to a certain amount of space, the jumbo flats/HDB PH at 1 million looks like a steal to this group of buyers. Now they have the space, relative exclusivity, an…

[4:59 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: I disagree.

This is the right move by the Govt which will force the prices to correct lower. In fact, this creates a new segment/alternative for buyers. Lower price for shorter lease rather than tie yourself into a long lease (and higher price and bigger loan) for something which most will never hold till maturity.

[5:08 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: It has always been the Govt's intention to use subsidised property ownership as an incentive to promote family units and procreation ie. increasing our birth and replacement rate.

Policies may shift further to support Single Parents... but unlikely so for Singles. Besides, there are no lack of options in the private property segment for Singles who want to own their own space.

[5:10 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Govt is not marginalising Singles...rather, it is INCENTIVISING creation of family, population replacement, increasing birthrate., hence, it is a subsidy, not a penalty when it comes to Govt housing assistance.

[5:13 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: not all singles are rich and could afford private property... and if i'm not wrong, all taxpayer helps to subsidised the housing..

[5:14 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: this is the same questions as non-road users paying for roads infra but they do use public transport

[5:14 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: for housing, NO

[5:14 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: You can't .. and that is the risk you take into consideration BEFORE you buy one

[5:15 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: this is considered marginalized, my friend...

akin you don married then you don get it..

[5:16 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: As i am  working in the filed..

I can surely say that Prices didnt get corrected 

Infact more demand for just MOP/ newer flats like less than 10 yrs old Increased prices tremendously.

Where as old ones Unable to sell :)and what ever the Price increment these days happend was due to Just Mop flats

Kindly look for data available on HDB site

[5:16 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: There are private condos that are comparable in price to HDB flats if price is really a concern. Like I keep saying, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Alternatively, consider renting while building up sufficient $ to purchase.

[5:16 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: please look at the stats

[5:19 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: Problem is that URA/hdb not releasing any Data of Price/Number of units sold as per age of Flats. So many were not Aware of Full facts what actually happening in HDB resale market!

[5:23 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: you saying if i'm buying a HDB 4rm (3 room) vs a 3 room condo will be the same price?

please share the lobang!

[5:24 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: not sure if you are a young or old friend, but having spending 10 years in Australia, the fairness without distinction of marital status, orientation and political direction

[5:26 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: As we are 90% public housing vs 80% private housing in other countries while the grant not a lot but at least is fair for all!

https://www.firsthome.gov.au/

[5:28 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: 2 sides of the same coin, friend.

Unfortunately, that is now the status quo, and there are valid reasons to maintain it.

[5:29 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: ya la... but i can only say the sandwich layer which are singles are getting hit hard... this will affect how we think in 2025 as we assumed we are not taken after :P

[5:30 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: I believe it will take time for people to realise what is going on and for prices to correct/adjust accordingly.... just like how some of those who previously bought quaint resale HDBs in Tiong Bahru are realising that it may not have been such a good idea anymore 😅

[5:32 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Everyone has their vote and should use it accordingly. Will be worried if THAT is the main consideration. Besides, I didn't realise any Opposition/Alternative party was campaigning to change this status quo... or maybe I wasn't paying attention. 😅

[5:35 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: 2011 was it

[5:36 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Not enough support for it then in that case

[5:36 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: every person have different agenda, some might the work, life or housing :)

for me is housing haha

[5:36 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: 🤣

[5:50 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: 15 years Old ?????

[5:51 pm, 17/12/2021] +Rama: 😱😨😳

[5:51 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: It has been Few years already ...

[5:52 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/2020-census-more-singles-singapore-all-age-groups-rate-population-growth-slowest-1970

[5:54 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Exactly ... so even with this "disadvantage" people are still choosing to remain single ... for a Govt that views population growth/replacement as a key pillar of our survival/growth as a nation, why are you surprised that this is not going away anytime soon?

[5:58 pm, 17/12/2021] +Elena Woo: Because of rising costs. Even my husband and I feel the financial strain with only 1 baby onboard and dropped thoughts of having 2nd baby at the moment.

[6:02 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: I will stop here as i already state my position :)

i can't help to just think about the vaccination, when the majority vaccinated then measures was implemented to unvaccinated..

likewise if singles tips the scales, then maybe something will change..

The proportion of singles:

among men aged 25 to 29 went up from 74.6 per cent to 81.6 per cent

Among women aged 25 to 29, it jumped from 54 per cent to 69 per cent

Among men aged 30 to 34, the proportion increased from 37.1 per cent to 41.9 per cent

Among women aged 30 to 34, it rose from 25.1 per cent to 32.8 per cent

[6:03 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: no point argue and i respect each and everyone's healthy discussion :)

[6:04 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: If the Govt does not do anything to change the ridiculous Education Primary school system we have in place, and the credit fueled property prices, our national birth rate will continue to drop. No amount of subsidy is worth bringing another life into a world where their childhood is going to be filled with endless enrichment/tuition classes, heartaches and tears from ridiculously difficult tests/exams which have no real world relevance, and after finally overcoming all these challenges, to be implicitly told that they are not as good as that Foreigner who somehow is better qualified than them.

[6:05 pm, 17/12/2021] +CQ: Hear hear!!

[6:05 pm, 17/12/2021] +Desmond: 💯

[6:15 pm, 17/12/2021] +Rama: Good point to reflect on.

[6:17 pm, 17/12/2021] +Paddy: 👍🏼

[6:20 pm, 17/12/2021] +Suma pamu: +1

100% agree

[6:30 pm, 17/12/2021] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/olQsqhUB7HI

400,000 Sq Ft land

1500 new flats

More than 10,000 new residents?

[6:34 pm, 17/12/2021] +Joseph: Watch China closely... the great reset, outlawing Tuition Centres, punishing Property Developers for price gouging, and penalising businesses that rely on national resources - be it data or branding - and yet do little to return the favour and contribute towards national progress, could be a template for our own revamp. 

For too long, we have asked the people for sacrifices towards the greater good and progress of our nation, and we have heeded the call. Many have benefitted, but even more have been left behind. And the gap is growing. 

Maybe its time to build inwards, to support and lift our own for the longer term good, at the expense of short-term gains/metrics that mean little to the majority. 

Start with our early education system. Something is wrong…

[6:42 pm, 17/12/2021] +Smiley face: 17 December, 2021 

To:  Distinguished Ministers And All Honorable Members 

"Producer of Public Goods - The HDB Journey"

BACKGROUND:

In the first quarter of the twentieth century, under the clouds of Colonialism, the British housing scheme (SIT) was a slow progression and an unfulfilling attempts to house the population then into a proper fit. At the start of 1960, a plain white sheet approach of the young government then, the idea of "home ownership', a social safety net, started with HDB aggressive purpose-built flats to meet the demand of the growing population, quality of life and continuously improving well into the next 60 years! Today, standing taller, our modern homes/towns have won numerous international awards and commendations! 

Space is always finite in Singapore; the success is in the creative design, detailed plan and value add which we have seen and succeeded in changing nothing into a higher value of significance, that's uniquely Singapore!  So far our experiences and lessons learned from Covid, amenities & facilities will have to be RELOOK, RESHAPE and REALLOCATE in accordance to needs versus wants. 

A new sets of lifestyles that ranging from the millenials (NG), adults (AG), older adults (MG) to our seniors (PG), a readjustment of complex and diverse range of needs versus wants! 

Living, working and breathing spaces in this resetting mode of Covid experiences are big turning points in our way of life and how we view a home space or a workplace - SPACE! 

By downsizing the workplace by 20% and upsize the living/breathing space by 20%, as research found new emerging trends in our demographics and psycholographics. The essence of how we live, what we beliefs, how we work and importantly our ageing seniors! 

For home is a human senses of one's closeness, comfort zone and connecting to many lives! So important is the home, it is the basics of human needs that must not be taken easily nor ignoring it. 

Affordability and accessibility are two closely related variables when a prospective home buyer starts searching for its nest. The best choice will be an ideal environment that connects to 80% or more of the family needs and wants. Simply, an affordable price that will sustain the family needs and wants with the minimal disruptions, tangibles and intangibles. 

Aspirations and expectations are immeasurable human to human of all ages. Affluent and being better educated in a developed country is a norm towards a more complex society. These human behaviors need to be thoroughly understood in order to formulate a holistic solution to fit harmoniously - the evolving homes of tomorrows! 

There is a need to master a spectrum of talents for housing and town planning from architects, designers, policy makers, scientists to social scientists in deriving a formula that will best fit the future trends (demographics + psychographics) of the population. 

Perhaps now, a plain new sheet approach in crafting our future homes ;  from a Studio, a SOHO to a Multi-Gen penthouse/townhouse. A new chapter of progression from more than half century of our nation building and most of all, the continuation of our Singapore Story! 

Afterall, a home is the heart of a family (家) and enlarge a country (国家), perhaps, going forward in renaming flats to HDB Homes or HDB Apartments - UNIQUELY & PRESERVING OUR HOMES! 

Afterwords:

Facts and Trends:

Rising sea level, warmer temperature, food security, rising middle-class, inequalities, structural unemployment, aging, low birth rate and wasted management. Using science and high tech such as ecological scientists, electronics & structural engineers, designers and architects that will formulate a SMART, GREEN and a sustainable DESIGN that's fit for all to live and CO-EXIST. 

A good "house-keeping" initiative namely the EIP is a check and balance approach in achieving a harmonious living environment for all occupants in a public housing setting, this case HDB developments. 

The preservation of this core EIP idea can be modified and incrementally changed over time. Importantly these  amendments must be prudent and  relevant! 

Additionals:

Seller Surplus - - 

A seller capital gains from selling an asset previously bought at a lowered price point. 

Buyer Surplus - - 

A cost saving when acquiring an asset from a willing seller at a price point lower than the original price the seller has bought it.

Ethnic Integration Policy - - 

"... WP aims to remove the EIP one day, but not before Singapore reaches a state of being race neutral...?" 

-- Pritam Singh

https://youtu.be/2cmbW4UCBJY

Quotations:

CO-EXIST: Preserving the CORE, Incremental growth, value-add and remains RELEVANT!" 

'Social mobility is chance, access and accessibility... "

                - - END - -

[6:53 pm, 17/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 10 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan

[6:55 pm, 17/12/2021] +REACH: Need something to express your joy this holiday season? 🥳 

The REACH Comics Festive Stickers Pack is here!✨ 

Let Rachel, Andy, Ivan and Susan help you express your holiday well-wishes to friends and family! 👍

For Whatsapp (please install the Stickerly app to download): https://sticker.ly/s/IVZUG8

[6:59 pm, 17/12/2021] +Smiley face: 17 December, 2021

To: Distinguished Min- MND, MOF, MAS, Ministers And All Honorable Members 

"Buy High and Sell Higher (Assets Enhancement) ... A Human Psychology of Greed Or Ignorance? " 

The latest initiatives of HDB plans to build flats within the prime location and city fringes of Singapore are perhaps a thread and a needle in sewing the gap better those who have achieved, arrived, the many that are becoming successful and rising up the social ladder and importantly not to forget many whom are struggling along he way- one may agree it is a happy problem if it turns out well! 

Real World Values - - 

Fact, the economics developments and subsequent successes of a country will have an upward trajectory of demand (supply) of essential goods and services and a direct impact on its domestic cost and quality of living. 

For the policymakers, it gets tougher, walking a tightrope of balancing the future, the existing and the existential couple with the dynamics of its socioeconomic swings. The established values of properties, the possible revaluation of coming public housing and future values are tough balancing acts to achieve an amicable and inclusive outcomes for all of Singapore, at least  80% of the majority to begin with...? 

A time now to reset and rescale the hot property markets from public to private entities through the implementation of the additional buyer's transactional tax. There is also a need to relook and rewrite existing public housing rules on top of these freshly imposed taxes to derive an impactful and workable price cooling policy. 

Main:

(A)  Proposed To Resale Flat Rules - - 

1) For natural citizens, no restriction to purchase a flats 5  years or older onwards, 10 years or older for Prime locations. Matrimonial certificate to be presented for citizenship status. Single or Joint ownership, either one of the applicant who is not citizen will not be eligible under this ruling. 

2) For PRs, in matured area flats, eligible to purchase resale flats of 10 years or older. For Prime locations and city fringes flats, a 15 years eligibility to purchase such resale flats. 

3) For existing owners who are renting out flats for income and same time residing in a private residence (private condo/apartment or landed property) shall be levied 25% of the annual rental of these flats. Fabricate, circumvent or cheat will amount to infringement of the proof of rental or residence of these flat owners whom will be subjected to prosecution, fines and confiscation of the flat and HDB there on will hold full ownership of such repossessed flats. 

(B) Proposed Price Differentiation in Newly Built Prime Area Flats - - 

The selling prices of these Prime location flats will differentiate from new flats of all areas including city fringes and matured estates. Prime locations being the highest value follows by city fringes and matured estates. For Prime locations, flats price range from an increase of 50% to 100% compared to matured flats, subject to flat Size, Floor and Location of each block and its vicinity. 

Afterwords:

Policy - - 

Is a concensus derived from stakeholders that born a set of rules to be implemented within a parameter of involvement.

Politics - - 

Its involving the human aspect of interactions and communications from the start of a vision or a challenge or an opportunity. In the process of implementing a policy, these intangibled and tangibles combined attributes will contribute towards an intended outcome or many unintended consequences. Should the later happened, it will be regarded as a failed policy. It will be back to the drawing board to rethink and rechart a new approach and a new policy arises.

Not playing smart or not seizing chances may result in missed opportunities.

Singapore has always been the admirable Darling to many wo…

[7:00 pm, 17/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

======

REACH 302 - What are your views on the latest COVID-19 measures to ensure that Singapore is prepared to deal with a spread of the Omicron variant in the community, even as reopening plans continue? 

What do you think of easing of the default work-from-home stance from Jan 1, to allow 50% of those who can work from home to return to office? Are you looking forward to return to office for work? (SK)

15 Dec 2021 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:52 am, 15/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from * 10am to 7pm* today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind: 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.

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Full set of Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

[10:00 am, 15/12/2021] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢 

Singapore is bracing itself for an Omicron wave by pressing on with the national booster programme, ramping up healthcare capacity and promoting regular testing, so that the nation can ride the next Covid-19 surge even as reopening plans continue. 

While Singapore has not detected any community transmission of the Omicron variant yet, it is only a matter of time before this happens, said Minister Gan Kim Yong at a press conference on Tuesday (Dec 14). "This may then lead to another surge in cases because of the highly infectious nature of the Omicron virus. We must therefore prepare ourselves for such a scenario." 

From Jan 1, Singapore will ease its default work-from-home stance and allow 50 per cent of those who can work from home to return to the office. This comes after an earlier announcement that from Jan 1, only employees who are fully vaccinated or have recovered from Covid-19 within the past 180 days can return to the workplace. 

💬 What are your views on the latest COVID-19 measures to ensure that Singapore is prepared to deal with a spread of the Omicron variant in the community, even as reopening plans continue? 

What do you think of easing of the default work-from-home stance from Jan 1, to allow 50% of those who can work from home to return to office? Are you looking forward to return to office for work? 

📌 What you need to know about the new COVID-19 measures: https://str.sg/3fCW 

Some of the key announcements are: 

👉🏼 Plans to ramp up hospital and ICU capacity, expand role of GPs in home recovery: https://str.sg/3f9z 

👉🏼 Up to 50% of staff who can work from home can return to workplace from Jan 1, vaccination-differentiated measures to be expanded to more settings and events from Feb 1: https://str.sg/3f9n

👉🏼 Third mRNA dose needed to extend vaccination status, reduced exemption period for those recovered from COVID-19: https://str.sg/3f9K 

👉🏼 No booking required for Moderna booster shots; monitoring time for booster jabs to be halved to 15 minutes: https://str.sg/3f9F 

👉🏼 Number of Covid-19 quick test centres to double to about 120 in coming weeks: https://str.sg/3f9e

👉🏻 Singapore citizens can enter Malaysia via land VTL from Dec 20: https://str.sg/3f92

------

[10:04 am, 15/12/2021] +Caleb: 50% go back work. Sure cases will surge

[10:05 am, 15/12/2021] +Caleb: Should 25%

[10:05 am, 15/12/2021] +Caleb: If companies want 50% all shld do ART weekly test

[10:05 am, 15/12/2021] +Caleb: If gov is pushing for ART as the norm

[10:06 am, 15/12/2021] +Caleb: Not looking forward to return to ofc. Cause am sure cases will surge then go back square 1 again

[10:10 am, 15/12/2021] +Boon: https://sg.yahoo.com/news/singapore-implement-validity-period-full-110552522.html

[10:11 am, 15/12/2021] +Boon: We should not be rushing into policies that are based on emergent situations.

[10:11 am, 15/12/2021] +Boon: So far, time has shown that vaccines are not the silver bullets, and there are side effects.

[10:12 am, 15/12/2021] +Ah Heng: is good to be optimistic but something overly optimistic is not good... like yesterday 1 day soo many good news? let's see let's see .......

[10:30 am, 15/12/2021] +JC: This is wonderful news. Please stay/accelerate the course of resuming to  normality soonest possible - hopefully 100% sometime soon. It's a long time coming!

[10:40 am, 15/12/2021] +Caleb: https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2IT0PB

[10:44 am, 15/12/2021] +BL: "What do you think of easing of the default work-from-home stance from Jan 1, to allow 50% of those who can work from home to return to office? Are you looking forward to return to office for work?  - looking forward yes to having the option of going into the office. Wouldn't want to work with unvaccinated people though - why is this not a requirement, or is it considered now that everyone is vaccinated so doesn't need to be a rule?

[10:48 am, 15/12/2021] +Ah Heng: wanna bet in a few day it will suddenly says how good pifzer again is .. den a few days later another report will says how bad it is ...

[10:51 am, 15/12/2021] +Joseph: So far, time has shown that without vaccines, the CV19 "side-effect" known as death, is worse 🙄

[11:00 am, 15/12/2021] +BL: "However, the Government is considering removing a concession that allows unvaccinated people to return to the workplace if they test negative for Covid-19, said Finance Minister Lawrence Wong." - yes please remove this concession.

[11:01 am, 15/12/2021] +BL: "The expansion of vaccination-differentiated measures means that people will have to be vaccinated to enter a wider variety of settings.

These include all indoor sports facilities - even those that are privately owned - institutes of higher learning and leisure guests in hotels, hostels and serviced apartments.

All events - even those with fewer than 50 attendees - will also be subject to these requirements. These include funeral memorial services and work-related events." - yes good. Please ensure only vaccinated people are eligible for entry and participation.

[11:01 am, 15/12/2021] +Joseph: The reports only state the results of the tests. 

Different population, environment, population demographics etc will of course result in different results/outcomes. We should be more worried if ALL the results are the same. 

End of the day, it is people who interpret whether it is good or bad.

[11:03 am, 15/12/2021] +BL: Only Citizens? Why is that? "Separately, the authorities announced that the quarantine-free land travel scheme between Singapore and Malaysia will be expanded, to allow vaccinated Singapore citizens to enter Malaysia via the Causeway from next Monday (Dec 20)."

[11:04 am, 15/12/2021] +Joseph: Ask Malaysia lah 😂  It's their border leh... obviously they control right? 😂

[11:53 am, 15/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/first-omicron-death-uk-confirmed-boris-johnson-114409623.html

First Omicron death in UK confirmed by Boris Johnson.

There is a lag in infection, hospitalisation and death.

[11:53 am, 15/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/omicron-transmission-fill-hospitals-icus-143201802.html   

Omicron transmission will ‘fill up the hospitals and the ICUs’.

[0:01 pm, 15/12/2021] +Timothy Low: Actually since we know omicron is highly infectious why does the Government still want to allow 50% to return to office? We should take a more cautious approach if not we will take many steps back again

[0:03 pm, 15/12/2021] +BL: This is how the UK counts death from Covid: "The first definition is death within 28 days of the first covid positive swab date. The second is death of someone with a laboratory confirmed positive covid-19 test who either died within 60 days of the first swab or, if covid-19 is mentioned on the death certificate, died more than 60 days after the first swab." https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3220

[0:04 pm, 15/12/2021] +BL: Considering the number of people with covid, I'm surprised there are not more deaths counted. Clearly if some has a tragic accident they won't attribute it to covid, but if someone dies from natural causes, and tested positive within 28 days, then they will.

[0:10 pm, 15/12/2021] +Joseph: Are you suggesting ALL deaths should be categorized as Natural Death then? Since death is a natural progression of life. All other ailments/injuries/accidents at most hasten the process 🤷‍♂️

[0:11 pm, 15/12/2021] +Caleb: +1

[0:13 pm, 15/12/2021] +Joseph: And what is the point of arguing about how a statistic is recorded? It obviously is not going to change your mind (or mine) about whether to respect the virus more or not. Anti-vaxxers will just insist that counting a death towards CV19, is nothing more than a Govt conspiracy to “control” the populace, by mandating mask wearing, or inserting a tracking/monitoring device via the vax 😂

[0:17 pm, 15/12/2021] +CQ: +1

[0:24 pm, 15/12/2021] +Ken Loh: Never try never know 🤣

[0:24 pm, 15/12/2021] +Ken Loh: UK now default WFH

[0:45 pm, 15/12/2021] +Joseph: Omicron is an imported variant. The fight to limit its spread is at our borders, not the office and/or our F&B outlets.

More importantly, the emergence of variants of concern such as Omicron - previously Delta - should hopefully be seen once again as evidence of the importance of having a high vaccination rate.

It is unlikely that a new variant will emerge/originate from Singapore because of our high vaccination rate, The vaccine (for now) does not fully prevent CV19 from spreading, but it has proven very effective in limiting its virulence and ability to mutate.

It is not a coincidence that countries that consistently see the emergence/origination of new variants/mutations are those that have low vaccination take-up rates. 

Anti-vaxxers, please take note.

[0:49 pm, 15/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Vaccine effectiveness against severe COVID-19 drops slightly, still 'significant protection': WHO

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/vaccine-effectiveness-against-severe-covid-19-drops-slightly-still-significant-protection-who-2379661

[1:34 pm, 15/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Looking at all the trend and vital indicators - the current Delta wave in Singapore more or less have been controlled.

2. Thus, allowing cautious relaxation of measures is warranted to ensure our Economy continue to perform.

WFH as default is the most stringent measures - the CB measures.

With 31% population receiving the boosters, 97% adults vaccinated (only 3% adults and elderly are unvaccinated), but 300,000 young children unvaccinated - cautious relaxation of measures concerning jobs and business can be cautiously tried out - though we must be aware that Omicron which has now infected 70 Countries and spreading very rapidly that likely to outpace Delta is looming.

3. I cautiously support the 50% WFH and 50% in office for the following reasons:-

a. We have reported 16 Omicron landed in our shores - but mainly contained at our border - 14 imported and 2 infected are customer service. There are no sign of community infection yet.

b. WFH 50% is merely allowing the business the flexibility to adjust its workforce presence in the office if needed and not overly rigid. Business can choose to make all default WFH or can allow 50% to be presence in office as the business required because :-

i. Notice that some projects required physical human interaction - as virtual zooming is unable to get the projects going as smoothly as with physical interaction - especially when project deadline is looming.

ii. There is a need to boost the commercial district business activity eg., downtown f&b, food centre, shopping, retail, public transport and private transport - which are badly impacted as a result of default WFH.

c. However, if Omicron has begin to manifest in our local community - we must be prepared to move 50% WFH back to WFH as default.

I think the adjustment is not too disruptive for the business - as all the remote working infrastructure and operational mode is in place. 

It is about workers appear in office more or less.

However, downtown retail, f&B and transport will be the most impacted.

4. Meanwhile as we keep Omicron at bay, we must ramp up our efforts in internal defense to do the following :-

a. Ramp up booster shots from 31% to beyond 50% for all eligible adults and elderly. 3 shots vaccination have been proven to be up to 75% effective against Omicron and more than 90% effective against Delta and other current strains - as various studies have shown.

b. Continue to persuade the 3% unvaccinated adults and elderly to get vaccinated.

c. Start vaccination for the 300,000 children who are unvaccinated.

The Omicron wave is no joke as it has already infected 70 Countries already in such a short time - and it has the potential to out surge Delta.

Hospitalisation number could be overwhelm like Delta wave.

[3:18 pm, 15/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic 😊

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan

[3:25 pm, 15/12/2021] +Caleb: I hope Novavax will be approved for booster shot

[5:01 pm, 15/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Notably, 3 vaccination stages are observed in 2 previous covid surge :-

a. Original covid strain

b. Delta variant

2. The 3 stages are :-

a. Persuasion Stage - where the Government and medical experts persuade the population to vaccinate - by providing information, statistics, merits of vaccination, its side effects and the danger of covid.

This stage will persuade open-minded population to vaccinate to protect themselves, their loved ones and the Society.

b. VDS stage - Vaccination-Differentiated Safe Management Measure Stage - whereby the Government introduce measures to nudge those who "sit on the fence" to vaccinate while covid strain start to spread.

c. Events-Driven Outcome stage (or Panic-driven stage or Gadang Gabo stage) - whereby the covid strain start to manifest rapidly, many infected, sizeable people ended up in hospitalisation, some are serious and some succumb and die.

This stage is panic-driven - whereby unvaccinated or partially vaccinated people scramble to get themselves fully vaccinated and those eligible scramble to get their booster.

2. The original strain infection - are less stark while going through the 3 stages - as at that time, vaccination is still not available and at its infancy.

3. But during the Delta wave, the 3 stages are more stark.

Luckily, majority have been vaccinated, and majority of the total population have gone through stage 1 (more than 70%), while VDS pust another 20% over to get full vaccination.

3rd stage push more people to scramble to get their booster and the unvaccinated to vaccinated - driving up vaccination from 90% to 97% now ---- when thousands get infected everyday, hundreds landed up in hospitals, ICU and couple of death per day.

4. For Delta, US study reveal the transmission R0 = 9.

Omicron display the transmission as many times that of Delta - which means R0 > 10 - will far exceed 10.

5. This means if Omicron start to manifest in our Community - Omicron will spread like wildfire ----- and Stage 1 and Stage 2 will be quickly superseded --- and it will land us in Stage 3 - Panic-driven mode.

6. Hence, it is imperative that :-

a. Those who are eligible for booster - should quickly sign up to get their booster jab.

b. Those unvaccinated adults and elderly - should quickly get themselves vaccinated.

c. Unvaccinated young children - should sign up to vaccinate as soon as vaccines are made available to the young children.

7. Because the moment Omicron take hold in the community - there is no way to stop it - as its transmission rate far exceed that of Delta.

Full vaccination (with booster) is our core defense against Omicron.

[6:45 pm, 15/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan

[6:59 pm, 15/12/2021] +Smiley face: 15 December, 2021 

To:  Distinguished MTF and All Honorable Members 

"Not A Hamburger-Hill, This Virus War"

Main:

Efficacy of Vaccines (USA) 

1) Moderna

2) Pfizer

3) J & J

(disclaimer for all facts and all time line) 

In sync with what the Americans efficacy data, Moderna seems to be the choice for covid booster, a slightly better protection against covid and its range of variants. 

(disclaimer for all facts and all time line)

Secondly, if a vaccinee missed the window period to boost (assuming 180 days validity from dose #2), say a further 90 days lapse. Its not simply affecting one's vaccination status but the body immunity and vaccine efficacy thus this absence vaccinee perhaps will need to revaccinate from dose one, dose two and so on. Will the revaccinate cost be the burden of the delayed vaccinee or is it fair for taxpayers to pay? 

A precedent practice for vaccine like Hepatitis, should there be a lapse of one year or longer from dose #2,  the vaccinee will have to restart the entire Hep vaccination regime, the vaccinee has to pay for it to upkeep the vaccination status and so on. What's the practice for these mRNA and Non mRNA vaccines? 

Afterwords:

A metaphorical story of virus & vaccination:

Number one, a virus is the enemy and a vaccine is like a bullet proof vest wore by soldiers during combat/war situation. Besides a bullet proof vest is a good and logical choice, a battalion of soldiers will need various weapons and strategies to win a battle

Number two, in a battle field, there are known to have enemy SNIPERS in hiding to target these bullet proof fighters in order to create an intra-platoons chaos that lead to severe distructions of the order of the battalion - though not all succeed or dead! 

Number three, these well covered upper body and small arms soldiers will never withstand the mother of all bomb which ranges from C4 dynamite to the Nuclear arsenal. 

What's the lessons of the 1-2-3?

Is this bullet proof vest enough for the tough and bloody battlefield? 

Are there bodily loopholes other than the upper bodies to target in the eye of a sniper? 

What if the enemy uses bomb of all sorts, will the Battalion survives the "hamburger-hill" of viral war? 

News:

Boosters needed for extension of full vaccination status as Covid-19 variants emerge

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/exception-to-enter-vaccination-differentiated-places-for-recovered-covid-19-patients

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2IT0PB

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/ireland-people-ppe-world-health-organisation-india-b1975842.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/omicron-pfizer-ceo-says-we-may-need-fourth-covid-vaccine-doses-sooner-than-expected.html?__source=androidappshare

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication”. 

- - Leonardo da Vinci

                - - END - -

[6:59 pm, 15/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

=======

REACH 301 - How do you feel about current COVID-19 situation in Singapore? Parents with children from 5 to 11 years old, will you be getting your children to take the COVID-19 vaccine once it is available? Why or Why not? (SK)

13 Dec 2021 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:45 am, 13/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from * 10am to 7pm* today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind: 

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4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.

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We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

[10:00 am, 13/12/2021] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢

Children from five to 11 years old will be able to receive the Pfizer-BioNTech/Comirnaty Covid-19 vaccine from the end of Dec 2021. Vaccination for this group will begin once new batches of the vaccine are received, the Ministry of Health (MOH) said in a statement on Friday (Dec 10) night. 

💬 How do you feel about the current COVID-19 situation in Singapore? Parents with children from 5 to 11 years old, will you be getting your children to take the COVID-19 vaccine once it is available? Why or Why not? 

Children will be given smaller doses - one-third of that used for those 12 and above - and the jabs will be spaced at least 21 days apart. MOH will work with the Ministry of Education and Early Childhood Development Agency to roll out vaccinations for the school-going age group. 

Pfizer-BioNTech/Comirnaty Covid-19 vaccine is the first Covid-19 vaccine approved by Singapore for use for children in this age group, following a recommendation by the expert committee on Covid-19 vaccination, which the multi-ministry task force handling the pandemic accepted. The committee said the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks posed to the children, especially given the ongoing community transmission and emergence of the Omicron variant. Those aged between 18 and 29 years who have completed their primary vaccination jabs at least five months ago will also be able to receive their booster shots from Dec 14. 

Senior Minister of State for Health Dr Janil Puthucheary said in a Facebook post that the Health Sciences Authority (HSA) had conducted a thorough evaluation of data in consultation with two groups of experts from HSA’s Medicines Advisory Committee and Panel of Infectious Diseases Experts. He said: “In an ongoing study of over 2,000 children aged 5 to 11 years, vaccine efficacy was estimated to be 90.7%. In addition, side effects such as injection site pain, fatigue, headache, chills and fever were generally reported less frequently and were milder in severity in the children compared to adolescents.There were also no cases of anaphylaxis or myocarditis/pericarditis in the study.” 

There is an emerging view amongst scientists around the world that existing COVID-19 vaccines will still work on the Omicron variant, especially in protecting people against severe illness. While studies on vaccine effectiveness for infection and severe disease compared to previous variants are ongoing, there is strong scientific consensus that we should take our vaccinations and boosters to protect ourselves against any existing and future variants of COVID-19. 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3fT4 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3fdG 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3fPL 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3fPw

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[10:01 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: Great news. Yes, will be getting my kid Vax'd asap. Reason? Because vaccination helps prevent serious illness, reduces the spread of disease and mutations. Simple.

[10:01 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: Also, means we will be confident to go travelling again!

[10:04 am, 13/12/2021] +Mag: For me, I am very concerned. My answer is no, not for the time being. I don’t think I am ready for my kid to take this jab. I will be on a wait and see approach.

[10:13 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: Question: is going to be very evident -> what the govt going to do to if majority kids from 5 to 12 do not want to inject ...

[10:13 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: force them to be schooless? is that what is it

[10:13 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: also what if by june the covid really die down .....

[10:14 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: what is the KK trial like? how many had been jab, how many cases had volunteer their kids , where are the stats and validated by 3rd party

[10:15 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: not being an anti vaccinate but which direction are we following WHO or US FDA / Isreal. cos WHO did mentioned kids vaccinae can be delay and let the adults have the vaccination first espically for other countries

[10:16 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: and what happen to the statement -> kids have greater immunity and check on the internet comparing kids and adults locally ... seems adults have a far worse effects compare to kids who recover within days while being bubbly when down with covid ....

[10:16 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: also what is the age age sudden widen to 12-5 why it cannot be 10-12 .....

[10:17 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: just because usa and isreal set that age range?

[10:21 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: also with the advertising from the pharma how confident are we that even the 3rd booster works

[10:22 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: moderna say no have to have a 4th and somewhat newjab  to counter omicron

[10:22 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: but pifzer say is ok current 3rd jab works

[10:22 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: but hey have any one read most in the usa and another country, their omircon victims are those with 3 full jabs

[10:22 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: so what is what now ...

[10:23 am, 13/12/2021] +Gcml: Has there been a huge percentage of young kids with covid AND suffering from symptoms etc to render this vaccination necessary?

What are the pros and cons such that it is favouring vaccination for young kids? (if so)

[10:26 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: though omicron have not mke its first kill but the wide spread might pull our health care system down .... with more people visiting the  facilities

[10:26 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: jab is not going to prevent a lower amount fi USA reports most of their patients are 3 jabs type.. the only thing these 3 jabs do is prevent icu and beds in hospital from being overwhelm

[10:27 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: if this is the only proactive action used as a front to fight on we will be again in the reactive stage

[10:51 am, 13/12/2021] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/TPhWS3f7-1E

[10:53 am, 13/12/2021] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/cwqOWrIpc6k

[10:54 am, 13/12/2021] +Smiley face: Omicron: Pfizer CEO says we may need fourth Covid vaccine doses sooner than expected

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/omicron-pfizer-ceo-says-we-may-need-fourth-covid-vaccine-doses-sooner-than-expected.html?__source=androidappshare

[10:56 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: see it change again

[10:56 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: just a few days ago not 3 pifzer says 3rd does does stop o-varaint now someone share it need 4th does

[10:57 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: what is what now

[10:57 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: everyday we get advertisement from these pharma

[10:57 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: thus globally society are pissed and resisting thus making govt forcing their society to be mandatory vaccination

[11:00 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: The chance of a kid getting smallpox these days is very small. Do people say no to Vaccine because of that? They do not. The reason Smallpox is no longer a threat is because we vaccinate our kids.

[11:01 am, 13/12/2021] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/YBzRV8w5f4U

[11:02 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: I do agree that Covid risk is very small in kids, but the vaccine reduces that risk further and helps prevent spread and mutations.

[11:03 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: Several friends who are not anti-vax are hesistant about vaccinating their kids, and I do understand that feeling. I'm just putting it to one side based on evidence that the vaccine is not harmful and it's better than risking covid.

[11:03 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: Yes, this is a danger we are being manipulated by the pharmas', but we don't have a counter argument so we have to go with it.

[11:04 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: Yes, and we may need 2 doses a year while they refine the vaccination. Remember this was rolled out (thankfully) in record time. I'm ok with that and I'm sure in 5 years from now there will be a single dose that does the job, or an annual dose like flu.

[11:13 am, 13/12/2021] +Joseph: 👍

[11:19 am, 13/12/2021] +Joseph: Isn’t it ironic that a lot of parents wish for their kids to become DOCTORS when they grow up, but some of them are also the same people who are doubting the medical experts/scientists when it comes to the pandemic and safety/need for vaccinations.

[11:32 am, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/europe-jab-young-children-cut-142709007.html

WHO Europe: jab young children to cut Covid risk at Christmas.

[11:33 am, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

WHO say - get children to vaccinate to cut covid risk in children.

[11:33 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: I think it's a good thing that the vaccines are approved for younger children but I would not be vaccinating my kids for the time being because there is insufficient data to suggest that a healthy child 5-11 will benefit from this intervention given that COVID, in overwhelming majority of young children, presents as a very mild illness.

However, I agree that vaccines will be a good thing for those children who are at higher risk of severe illness (e.g. underlying respiratory and cardiac issues, immunocompromised children) or those who may have higher exposure risk to the virus (e.g. children of healthcare professionals or frontliners.) but unlike for adults, I do not see it appropriate to mandate vaccination or to impose vaccine differentiated measures for children.

[11:34 am, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/worrying-number-children-pregnant-women-153102050.html

Worrying' number of children and pregnant women in hospital as omicron surges in South Africa.

[11:40 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: The one major unknown that is omitted from the original article posted by Minister Janil and is not addressed by the clinical study that was referenced is that there is not data on the long term impact of mRNA vaccination on young children. This is something that we cannot know until many years later and it is a fallacy to think that it is definitely safe. 

If MOH wants to convince me to vaccinate my young children, I will need more robust data to show that the risk of severe disease from COVID among children 5-11 years old is high enough to justify the unquantifiable risk of long term side effects.

[11:41 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: I will need more robust data than news articles with anecdotes.

[11:43 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: There needs to be a credible modelling of the actual rates of infection among the young - specifically 5 to 11 - and actual numbers on how many children actual suffers from severe disease and whether there are specific profiles that are more vulnerable.

[11:44 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: If MOH can generate that and communicate that clearly, I believe many parents like me will be open to vaccinate our kids.

[11:44 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: finally and not just depend on other countries results

[11:45 am, 13/12/2021] +Gcml: Yes. Even as a nation, do we want an entire generation to live with long term effects that are unknown, years down the road.

[11:45 am, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Look like to get the children vaccinated, Omicron will come in to infect many children in Singapore.

Then MOH can generate more data to convince the parents to get their children vaccinated.

[11:45 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: I think results from other countries could be a helpful reference as it'll be impossible to simulate a similar situation in Singapore. I'm open to that as long as it's robust.

[11:46 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: It is OK for children to be infected with whatever variant of COVID, as long as the disease is overwhelmingly mild.

[11:46 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: It's not scarier just because it's a new variant.

[11:47 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: this is such a evil statement to make

[11:48 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: is like a freaking curse to all children in singapore

[11:48 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: and i take that personally

[11:48 am, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Eg. A good minority of unvaccinated adults refused to vaccinate, only when Delta wave come in thousands get infected, double digits people die - then vaccination rate ramp up.

Look like we are going to see another wave of Omicron coming to Singapore to infect many children before parents are convinced to get their children vaccinated.

[11:48 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: At a very high level -> if Omnicron is as transmissible as people say it is, and if it is also as severe for children as some might think, it is highly unlikely that we still have not seen a major spike in severe illness/deaths by now.

[11:48 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: we all knwo HOW FREAKING DARN HARD ON FOR U TO PUSH UR VACCINATION DRIVE

[11:49 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: but there is no need to say things liek that to children for heaven sake they are just little ones with no mind set to make decision

[11:49 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: if YES i bet they will also screw and show their finger to ppl to you for forcing them to vaccinate

[11:50 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: OR... there might be severe long term side effects for some children who are vaccinated. Will you still be alive to pay for their medication bills then?

[11:50 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: the long term side effects are unknown

[11:50 am, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Same old arguments repeat itself on vaccination - first for the adults.

And now for the children.

[11:51 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: it could be very minimal.

[11:51 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: or it could be very high

[11:51 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: the risk calculation is different

[11:51 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: and if you can't wrap your brain around it... it's because you've been outsourcing your brain to news articles or other people.

[11:52 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: work it out yourself. you don't have to take it from me.

[11:52 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: " I do not see it appropriate to mandate vaccination or to impose vaccine differentiated measures for children." - Agreed, no different measures needed for under 12s please.

[11:52 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: I think vaccination for SOME children with higher risk is warranted

[11:53 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: importantly do we want to risk a generation on kids who are medically defect by this vaccine

[11:53 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: Equally, we don't know the long term risk from Covid, in Adults or Children. The mRNA Vaccine doesn't give you covid. It just teaches you how to recognise and attack covid.

[11:53 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: if in deed there are defects going down the road

[11:53 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: but to think that parents are "anti-vax" just because they don't see any reason why their otherwise healthy kids should be vaccinated is a wrong way to go about it.

[11:54 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: dun forget this vaccine is still in experimental stage is not full flagged vaccine

[11:54 am, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Very simple, get those parents and children who want to vaccinate, vaccinate first.

Let those parents who are more fearful - let their children wait.

The cycle of persuading vaccination will have to repeat itself.

[11:54 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: Agreed- covid could well have serious long term affects on humans.

[11:54 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: everything is a risk benefit trade off. In fact, it can be argued that SG children might be better protected if our govt donate some of our vaccines stash for kids to our neighbors so that they can vaccinated their adult population.

[11:55 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: already to msia and indonesia i think

[11:55 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: We don't know the long term affects of Covid and it's a disease we don't fully understand so much less predictable than a vaccine we created.

[11:55 am, 13/12/2021] +Ah Heng: that is why i am proud of singapore sharing vaccine with other countries liek WHO mentioned

[11:56 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: true also.. I wouldn't say that vaccine is more predictable tho.

[11:57 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: It has now been fully approved. No longer experimental. and if it was experimental, 4 billion doses is quite a lot of evidence.

[11:57 am, 13/12/2021] +BL: it doesn't mutate for starters! That's good evidence it is more predictable.

[11:59 am, 13/12/2021] +JC: but side effect is the combination of the vaccine + your body... while the vaccine might remain the same, the human physiology is always changing, over time and across individuals.

[0:00 pm, 13/12/2021] +JC: I vax my kids for everything else

[0:00 pm, 13/12/2021] +JC: even influenza

[0:05 pm, 13/12/2021] +BL: So how are other vaccines ok, if human physiology is changing so much so quickly? I'm not following the logic.

[0:06 pm, 13/12/2021] +BL: Anyway - I'm not getting into a good/bad vaccine debate. It's been done to death as well.

[0:07 pm, 13/12/2021] +BL: I don't think Parents should be forced at this stage, and I don't think kids should be segregated dependent on vax status.

[0:07 pm, 13/12/2021] +Smiley face: https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/wait-what-fda-wants-55-years-process-foia-request-over-vaccine-data-2021-11-18/

[0:11 pm, 13/12/2021] +JC: 👍 your position is certainly justifiable. Understand and respect it.

[0:15 pm, 13/12/2021] +BL: 👍

[0:21 pm, 13/12/2021] +JC: my hesitancy is with the new mRNA tech. Not saying that it's a bad/inferior tech, but other vax have been used over time, across many people and the technology is better understood.

COVID as a disease is better understood as it is much easier to study intensively a disease among the infected than to study long term effects of novel vaccines. 

Perhaps I am overly cautious but I'm comfortable doing that because most kids are fine even if they get COVID.

[1:06 pm, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Channel 8 news say Omicron has landed in 63 countries.

2. Notice that the vaccination strategy in getting children between 12 - 18 years is very successful in Singapore.

3. Singapore can replicate similar vaccination strategy for children 5 - 11 years old - who are mainly pre-schoolers and primary school students.

4. Can start with parents who are willing to get their children vaccinated.

5. Then the rest.

[1:10 pm, 13/12/2021] +Smiley face: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/most-reported-us-omicron-cases-have-hit-fully-vaccinated-cdc-2021-12-10/

[1:15 pm, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Covid-19 booster shot provides strong defence against Omicron: British study.                            https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/booster-covid-19-shot-provides-strong-defence-against-omicron-british-study

[1:44 pm, 13/12/2021] +BL: Yes, because most people are vaccinated.... vaccines don't stop you getting the virus, vaccines enable your body to fight the virus quickly and effectively.

[6:16 pm, 13/12/2021] +Anthony: Hi Reach,  

My topic is today Frontline worker have higher chance to be infection from Virus .

After all this year ,Did Government realised  of that

Everytime , I feel disappointed & not surprise ....however mostly this group job worker  are low income worker & some of them who being infection are breadwinner .

May I know what wil Government can help this group of worker.

Cos, They may at a risk of losing their job

At the same time this job of group salary worker are low income but their Job are most highly infectious one

I urge the government given out more Subsidy more SRV Voucher for all fronline Low Income Worker ,Not just in Nursing but all sector 

As long ,Anyone who not working from home( WFH ) base

Everyone of Vulnerable Frontline Low Income Group Worker deserve our Government Cares & More benefits & Subsidy.

[6:47 pm, 13/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan

[6:49 pm, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/cdc-voucher-130-million-claim-online-digital-hawker-merchants-heartland-2376086

S$100 in CDC vouchers for each Singaporean household, assistance available for digital roll-out

[6:50 pm, 13/12/2021] +Rama: Claimed

[6:50 pm, 13/12/2021] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Good!

[6:52 pm, 13/12/2021] +Fulgrim: Hope they pay the hawkers the full amount for those vouchers

[6:53 pm, 13/12/2021] +Rama: Hidden conditions in the vouchers!?

[6:53 pm, 13/12/2021] +Fulgrim: No,  I meant when you pay with the vouchers, the hawkers get the full amount

[6:54 pm, 13/12/2021] +Rama: I hope so!

[6:54 pm, 13/12/2021] +Fulgrim: Sometimes it's the hawkers or merchants that absorbing part of the cost

[6:54 pm, 13/12/2021] +Fulgrim: For example, gahmen buys the vouchers at $70 each as part of a bulk purchase and the hawkers still need to give u 100$ value

[6:54 pm, 13/12/2021] +Rama: Let the consumer share it!?

[6:55 pm, 13/12/2021] +Fulgrim: Means they absorb $30 for example

[6:55 pm, 13/12/2021] +Fulgrim: Hawker share

[6:55 pm, 13/12/2021] +Fulgrim: Not consumer

[6:55 pm, 13/12/2021] +Fulgrim: As long as gahmen is paying the full some then it's ok

[6:56 pm, 13/12/2021] +Rama: I expect to hear some feedback on implementation and usage.

[6:59 pm, 13/12/2021] +Smiley face: 13 December, 2021 

To: Distinguished MTF and All Honorable Members 

"Actions Speak Louder Than Words - Let VDS (intra) & VTL (inter) be the deciders... "

- - anonymous 

Why:

Typically, why it takes up to 55 years for scientific data and final conclusion to arrive a consensus for a particular disease / drug / vaccine among scientists of this world?

It is the norm for scientists, researchers and fundings & findings of up to 50 years or lesser to derive a confidence level of solid truth including the rights and the wrongs regardless of Diseases, Drugs or Vaccines, the case these EUA covid vaccines, therapeutic drugs and covid itself. 

Meantime, the world ticks and continues to fight the immediate virus calls O! Beside vaccines any other remedies available to mitigate this O or more varieties to come? Time will tell... 

What:

A standby protocol for 2022 for the first half of the year. HBL for kinder schools & primary schools into two segregations of P1, P3, P5 and P2, P4, P6 with alternate week of physical Schooling. Affected parents to seek consideration from employers for WFH during these weekly HBL. 

When:

Proposed refreshed SMM for 2022 weekdays, weekends and public holidays activities. When R is  0.3 or less or when R is 0.3 to 0.5. The best scenario will be 0.2 and less considered as normalcy could be intra month or quarterly withstanding variants and cases. 

1) Boosted Vaccinees - - 

Boosted vavcinees to dine-in up to table of 12 persons free from all restrictions, weekdays, weekends and public holidays. 

Mass gatherings of social activities like sports, performing arts, religious services and celebrations both private and public for Boosted vaccinees of up to 20,000 persons capacity (when R is 0.3 or less, for R 0.3 to 0.5 the capacity will be 5,000 persons). No need for ART testing. 

Free and Easy VTL, entering into home country. No test needed for citizens, PRs, FTs, WPs and business travellers with proof of purpose. 

The above privileges are time based effective of 270 days from the booster effective date. 

2) Full Vaccinees - - 

Fully vaccinated can dine in up to table of 5 persons from differrent households and age groups. All time and all day.

Mass gatherings, 24 hours prior ART tests are needed for entry into sports,  performing arts, religious services   

and celebrations both private and public. 

For VTL, immediate entering home country subject to PCR or ART tests and day 4. 

The above privileges are time based effective of 180 days from the last vaccinated effective date. 

Where:

A country REPUTATION of being clean and covid safe will be the keys in the success of its implementation of cross border travel initiatives that will consequentially be a muscular driver of economic activities, trade progressions & integrations and differentiates from other nations. Being unique, be different and avoiding a habit of "monkey see, monkey do" approach: importantly to seek every small advantage, that's simply an "unfair advantage" over others! 

A brave new world, afterall, 99% of all visitors and locals are potentially asymptomatics? Let's open our minds, lightened our hearts and embrace a reset - a new norm of FUN, FREE & EASY experience for ourselves and our visitors!  As the old saying goes " the rest is history...! "

News & Videos:

https://youtu.be/YBzRV8w5f4U

https://youtu.be/TPhWS3f7-1E

https://youtu.be/cwqOWrIpc6k

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/omicron-pfizer-ceo-says-we-may-need-fourth-covid-vaccine-doses-sooner-than-expected.html?__source=androidappshare

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/wait-what-fda-wants-55-years-process-foia-request-over-vaccine-data-2021-11-18/

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/most-reported-us-omicron-cases-have-hit-fully-vaccinated-cdc-2021-12-10/

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/10/business/hong-kong-covid-quarantine-pilots-intl-hnk/index.html

Quotations:

"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest." 

- - Confucious

              - - END - -

[7:00 pm, 13/12/2021] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

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