Friday, January 17, 2025

REACH (Telegram) 53 - What are your views on the Government’s plans to increase housing supply? How can we continue to ensure affordable housing for Singaporeans?

(SK)

17 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)


REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 9:45 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 9:50 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

About 19,600 Build-to-Order (BTO) flats will be launched in 2025, as part of the government's efforts to boost public housing supply and meet rising demand.

Among them, 3,800 flats – or nearly 20 per cent – will have shorter waiting times of under three years, said Minister for National Development Desmond Lee

💬 What are your views on the Government’s plans to increase housing supply? How can we continue to ensure affordable housing for Singaporeans?

📌 Tackling pandemic induced challenges

This increased housing supply addresses challenges brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic, which disrupted construction, materials and labour, causing delays in BTO completions. At the same time, demand surged due to demographic shifts and pandemic-related factors, driving up resale prices after years of stagnation.

Almost five years on, Minister Lee said the government has resolved many of these issues, including clearing the backlog of delayed projects. The last batch of pandemic-delayed flats will be handed over to home owners within weeks, he said.

📌 Addressing housing affordability

As property resale prices continue to rise, Minister Lee said the government is “not averse” to implementing more cooling measures but hinted these would not be anytime soon as current initiatives should first be allowed to work through the market.

To address affordability concerns, the government is enhancing transparency through measures like publishing recent transaction data on the HDB portal and introducing initiatives such as the HDB Flat Eligibility (HFE) letter. The HFE provides prospective buyers with a clearer sense of their housing budget before applying for flats, said Minister Lee.

📌 Supporting homeownership for singles

In the year ahead, Minister Lee said the government is committed to initiatives to accommodate singles. Starting mid-2025, singles will be included in schemes that prioritise those applying for flats to live with or near family.

The new Family Care Scheme (FCS) will be rolled out in two phases to replace the existing schemes that reserve priority access for married couples and their parents.

👉 https://cna.asia/40g5Dy9

👉 https://str.sg/f3jx

👉 https://cna.asia/42isvQe

----


REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : I am confident that the government’s housing policies will ensure affordable housing for Singaporeans. Please share the reason for your answer in the chats! ]

- Agree

- Disagree

- Neutral

Steven Ong, [17/1/2025 11:43 AM]

Qn: are we using average median household income, mortgage servicing ratio, CPF HDB Loan interest rate and max HDB loan period to check on affordability of HDBs? IMO, it may be good to use this as yardstick when we refer to HDB Affordability..

Adam, [17/1/2025 11:55 AM]

My household very big big. Must be rich because all these working afult add up to household income. $200 cdc split between 9 ppl for rich cramped household. 

Somehow we get schemes that give based on per capita income tho. PAP use household income for affordability, they must be right. If they build more hdb, household income sure to drop because we will split households

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 12:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 1:06 PM]

Dear Contributors,

We want to HEAR MORE from you!

💬 What are your views on the Government’s plans to increase housing supply? How can we continue to ensure affordable housing for Singaporeans?

We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active! 

Do also share your opinion by participating in our polls! The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

Thank you!

Megan 😊

Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 1:40 PM]

Affordable housing for first timer or

affordable housing in the resales arena?

1.) In resales housing, there is a certain limit on how the government can "control" its insane speculative prices without directly dictating the resales price.

Anything involved in speculation is almost always volatile and insanely expensive, just finacial investment speculation and trading.

2.) For first timer, if the price of the housing is pegged to the market price, it will likely to be "expensive" due to the speculative nature of the market price on housing.

3.) Maybe extend the non-resale for newly purchase public housing for first timer to about 20 to 25 years.

why?

a.) the price of the housing for first timer can be lower than market price allowing young, and maybe older couples, to be able to purchase it with lower financial commitment.

the 20 to 25 years of non-resales condition is a "window period" for the couples to have their children, till their children are about 21 years when they are almost financially independent, able to get a job and have the ability to earn money after their tertiary education.

only then the public housing that they purchased, for the first time, can be put into the market for resales and whatever speculation that they want.

4.) There is no way to allow the public housing to be affordable for first timers and also enjoy the benefits of high value  resales market value.

Anything that involve some form of "market trading" is always volatile and insanely expensive due to speculative nature of human behavior.

.............

I DO NOTkeep track of the housing issue.

all i know is that from the advertising brochures i received regularly, resale housing in tiong bahru area is already as high as 800k to a million and more.

It is unfair to blame everything on the government, the insane high value of housing in resales market.

it is Singaporean ourselves, that drives up the value of housing in resales market out of greed. 

..........

RY, [17/1/2025 1:55 PM]

I am glad that govt also focusing on "singles" people in recent years for Hdb appln 

Previously used to have to buy from resale market and limit to 3-Rm flat

Now may buy new flat meant for singles directly from Hdb also

Whether married/singles, they still SG citizens and contributing to the SG society as a whole 

And Hdb shd not be always prioritize to those with family nucleus like in the past

RY, [17/1/2025 2:00 PM]

Comparing to many countries, SG public housing is one of the successful govt policy 

Whereby 70+% population stay at HDB flats 

Although Hdb is increasing over the years, but we may still use CPF monies to pay our mortgage loans, as long as we are working  

Unlike eg HK, half of their salary are used to pay for mortgage loans

Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 2:01 PM]

government has no choice.

people not getting married for many reasons.

one of it is the price of housing, and child care.

.......

and government has to focus on family unit because families are the one that bear children, who are the future of Singapore.

if not, government will need to taking new citizen and the like.

then Singaporean will complain...why allow so many foreign talents...

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 2:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Moses Kor kwang loong, [17/1/2025 2:05 PM]

I would suggest the prices of the build-to-order flats to be lowered so as to let others had the chance to purchase it

Isn't it to be a better idea??

RY, [17/1/2025 2:07 PM]

HDB also takes the effort to maintain Hdb flat every 5 years eg re-painting and etc

Besides there is Hdb Upgrade Plan if the flat is more than certain age eg 50

And increase the flat price appreciation in the resale flat market, and sametime make it more newer/comfortable to stay after the Upgrade Plan 

And we just require to pay certain percentage after much govt subsidy

Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 2:16 PM]

How do government expect the housing to be affordable when its purchasing value to closely relate to the market price?

it is like you want it to cheap, to be fresh and to be big.

(hokkien, ai pi, ai ci, ai duo liap)

where got such thing?

There is limitation cooling measure can do when you open housing to the market. Market speculation and human greed will always drive up the price to insane value.

................

and high housing price in market is one of the reason Singaporean not having children, things are interlinked.

which maybe on of the reason why Singapore choosing to be single, when ended up for the Singapore a to address the need of growing single Singaporean.

RY, [17/1/2025 2:16 PM]

I just recently did the HIP (Home Improvement) with my parent recently discharged from hospital

I just simply apply with singpass, and the HDB contractor just make arrangement to come to my flat and did the improvement eg shower seat  I requested 

And I just pay an affordable amount after govt subsidy 

All these are good initiatives by govt - my opinions always

Mainly because I buy/stay in HDB flat and able to enjoy all these, since I cannot afford private/landed housing

RY, [17/1/2025 2:20 PM]

To be able to shorten the waiting time to 3years, that is good for any family or married couples

So that they may have their baby plan, once they settled their new house

Daniel, [17/1/2025 2:22 PM]

I agree, the option to have a shorter waiting time for some flats is great!

Noor Naffissah, [17/1/2025 2:23 PM]

Yes as well as the pricing of flats must be affordable..

RY, [17/1/2025 2:27 PM]

Comparing to many countries public housing 

In fact, HDB has done a good job in providing quality and "creative" flat and maintain it well 

Also, most Hdb flat price appreciated over the years when flat owners want to sell later 

Just that due to land limitation, the new Hdb flat area is becoming much smaller as years go by ......


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:06 PM]

*Affordability of current BTO flats vis a vis current median income versus previous HDB flat vis a vis previous income*


1. Notice that there are quite a number of people raise the issue of current high flat price is getting unaffordable with their current income - as compare to previous generation in which HDB flat price is lower but come with lower income.


2. Let pick one real case - and address the "BTO flat affordability heads on" using math to reveal the truth to determine is it "perceived unaffordability" or "real affordabiity"  :-


1993 - 5 room flat

Income :- $1,600 per month - single income family (a couple)

HDB flat price :- $216,000

Loan :- HDB/CPF 2.6% interest

Total repayment amount :- $225,000

Loan repayment duration :- 25 years

Government Grant :- $40,000 (I think around there)


2024 - 5 room flat

Income :- $5,500 per month (current median income) - single income family (a couple)

HDB flat price :- $500,000 (Source :- Woodgrove Edge Woodlands $412,000 - $515,000. Matilda Riverside Punggol $464,000 - $582,000)

Loan :- HDB/CPF 2.6% interest

Total repayment amount :- $520,602 (Source :- HDB repayment calculator)

Loan repayment duration :- 25 years

Government Grant :- $55,000


And at the end of the 25 year - in both cases - this person not only complete financing the 5 room flat and can become a millionaire (第一桶金）.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:08 PM]

*1993 calculation*

1. ($225,000-$40,000/25 years) / 12 month = $616 per month (to repay loan)

2. 20% CPF employee (12% to CPF OA) = $1,600 x 12% = $192

3. 20% CPF employer (at that time) (12% to CPF OA) = $1,600 x 12% = $192

4. $616 - ($192 + $192) = $232 (to be paid by cash) per month

5. Take home pay = $1,600 - 20% CPF = $1,280

6. $1,280 - $232 (housing loan) = $1,048 take home pay

7. Set aside 1/3 for saving = $1,048 / 3 = $349 saving

8. Monthly cash available to be spend on 5 room flat for a household of a couple = $1,048 - $349 = $699.

9. Total accumulate savings for 25 years = $349 x 12 month x 25 years = $104,700


Additional income not included (not use in financing housing loans and monthly expenses

1. 13 month AWS + 3 month bonus - for high average performers = $1,600 x 4 months = $6,400 per year 

2. 25 years = $6,400 x 25 years = $160,000


In total, after 25 years (start work at 30 years old work for 25 years up to 55 years old) - accumulated savings = $104,700 + $160,000 = $264,00.


Estimated interest income earned at 2.5% = $264,700 x 1.025 - accumulated savings = $271,317.50 (this is the minimum wealth at 55 years old)

But this person, get salary increment and promotion along the way until retirement - and at 55 years old - monthly income is 5 figures.

Hence the maximum accumulated savings is more than $1 million - sufficient for retirement.

($271,317.50 - $1 million) - accumulated savings for retirement - previous generation.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:23 PM]

*2024 calculation*

1. ($520,602-$55,000/25 years) / 12 month = $1,552 per month (to repay loan)

2. 20% CPF employee (12% to CPF OA) = $5,500 x 12% = $660

3. 17% CPF employer (14.5% to CPF OA) = $5,500 x 14.5% = $797.50

4. $1,552 - ($660 + $797.50) = $94.50 (to be paid by cash) per month

5. Take home pay = $5,500 - 20% CPF = $4,400

6. $4,400 - $94.50 (housing loan) = $4,305.50 take home pay

7. Set aside 1/3 for saving = $4,305.50 / 3 = $1,435 saving

8. Monthly cash available to be spend on 5 room flat for a household of a couple = $4,400 - $1,435 = $2,965.

9. Total accumulate savings for 25 years = $1.435 x 12 month x 25 years = $430,500


Additional income not included (not use in financing housing loans and monthly expenses

1. 13 month AWS + 3 month bonus - for high average performers = $5,500 x 4 months = $22,000 per year 

2. 25 years = $22,000 x 25 years = $550,000


In total, after 25 years (start work at 30 years old work for 25 years up to 55 years old) - accumulated savings = $430,500 + $550,000 = $980,500.


Estimated interest income earned at 2.5% = $980,500 x 1.025 - accumulated savings = $1,005,012.50 (this is the minimum wealth at 55 years old)

But this person based on projection, will get salary increment and promotion along the way until retirement - and at 55 years old - monthly income is likely to exceed 5 figures.

Hence the maximum accumulated savings is more than $1 million (will double $1 million) - more than sufficient for retirement.

($1,005,012.50 - estimated $2 million) - accumulated savings for retirement - current generation.


To conclude, the current young generation will have a higher accumulated wealth compared to the previous generation.


Hence the "perceived unaffordability" of current high housing prices vis-a-vis current income - as compared to previous generation is "Debunked" based on math calculation with hard cold realistic figures.


In fact, the current younger generations - will be more "well off" compared to previous generation.

----


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:31 PM]

this is based on median income

$5,500.

realistic?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:31 PM]

Fresh graduates with computer science degree already fetching this salary.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:32 PM]

2023, the median monthly salary in Singapore was $5,197.

Source :- Google.


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:32 PM]

out of how many?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:33 PM]

Singapore median income source - Singapore statistics.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:34 PM]

In 2024, the median monthly income for full-time workers in Singapore was $5,500, which is a 5.8% increase from 2023. This figure includes contributions to the Central Provident Fund (CPF). 


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:34 PM]

Ah, I got the 2024 income median income from Google.

Nicely fit.


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:35 PM]

this i know. can't take it face value.

the methodology in getting the statistical value?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:35 PM]

Many of my close circle younger folks about this median income.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:36 PM]

Some higher.


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:37 PM]

and they consist what% in the same category?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:37 PM]

Median


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:38 PM]

aiyo.. then why so many complaints  about affordability?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:39 PM]

Even at $4,000 salary, I think most people will hit around the million $ 1st bucket.

Do a calculation, get a 4 room flat of about $400,000.

Many people will get their million.


Adam, [17/1/2025 3:39 PM]

Implying housing should be an investment


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:39 PM]

That's why people don't sit down to calculate.

All based on perception - not hard cold figure.

Hence jump into the wrong conclusion.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:40 PM]

Housing as investment is out of my calculations and computation.


Adam, [17/1/2025 3:41 PM]

Btw, yall here, should housing be an investment or not?

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:42 PM]

If it is, then people will expect to make returns, and work to exploit the system to maximise gains

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:42 PM]

If the gov curbs this, they are denying new homeowners the opportunities the older gen has


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:45 PM]

2024, the median gross salary for fresh university graduates in Singapore was S$4,313, which is an increase from S$4,200 in 2022. 

Source :- Google


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 3:45 PM]

Computer science graduates higher salary after 1 to 2 years working experience - salary adjustment and promotion.


Adam, [17/1/2025 3:49 PM]

Wow salary has 2.7% growth in a yesr

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:49 PM]

How does it compare to hdb?

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:49 PM]

Or teh tarik

Adam, [17/1/2025 3:50 PM]

New families swimming in cash, 2.7% more than previous gen. Must be thankful

Jun Ming, [17/1/2025 3:58 PM]

As said this are median and uni fresh grads in certain industries. For people for poly and ite does that don't go into uni this is not realistic.

Jun Ming, [17/1/2025 3:59 PM]

These people also have a life and would want to get a housing

Jun Ming, [17/1/2025 3:59 PM]

Based on previous topic poly grads have difficulty securing a job

Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 3:59 PM]

Danny seems to be confident it is realistic.📉📈

Jun Ming, [17/1/2025 4:01 PM]

So if poly people grads want to get married and have a bto is it possible?

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 4:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Kim Heok Lim, [17/1/2025 4:03 PM]

BTOs Possible with joint incomes & grants


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 4:04 PM]

Couples working joint income will hit the million very fast.

Double the time.


Kim Heok Lim, [17/1/2025 4:06 PM]

To many it’s a roof over their head


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 4:21 PM]

Hence important for the government to consider making financial management a mandatory subject for every IHL and higher secondary students.

It seems like a vast majority of people are quite ignorant about financial planning, saving for retirement and saving for rainy days - even highly educated ones.

Not to mention, ignorance of micro and macro economics - on how the country is run.


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 4:23 PM]

It is not only realistic, but people are indeed reaping the fruits of such financial plan.

Especially dual income families, the fruition is faster.


G, [17/1/2025 4:37 PM]

Wait until election year then come up with such things?


LCL (Danny 心), [17/1/2025 4:40 PM]

1. Dwelling into the current state of housing provision to meet people's needs.


2. The previous HDB supply shortage and the corresponding high prices during the Covid pandemic period is indeed a big problem - as workers cannot come in, work stoppage, materials supply disruption and shortages - that disrupt HDB flat supply.


3. For young couples, elderly and even singles who need a new flat urgently, the delay in new BTO flats construction is indeed an issue - and they are forced to buy resale flats and drive up the resales market - some hitting $1 million exorbitant prices.


4. But kudos to the Housing Minister and the civil service, the urgent construction of HDB BTO flats has since ramp up significantly immediately after Covid at breakneck speeds - targeting 100,000 new BTO flats throughout the whole island.


5. In addition, cooling measures to curb speculative activities in the resale market - on public and private flats have indeed starting to bring down the housing prices - and make it affordable for new owners to get their flats.


6. Also higher grants help to make the new BTO flats affordable.


7. The housing prices is actually economics, specifically micro-economics of demand and supply.

If we slight the reverse slope of demand horizontally outwards - when the supply slope is not moving downwards, housing prices will rise.

But with government implementing anti-speculative measures to curb unnecessary demand (for speculation and investment - to make quick money) - then demand reverse slope will slide horizontally inward.

With supply of housing ramp up, supply slope will move downwards.

When the demand and supply slope intersect - the prices become low.

This is simple micro-economic of demand and supply - determining prices.


8. Based on economic projection, looking forward, the HDB BTO flats prices will further come down - when the anti-speculative measures to curb demand start to take effect and when more BTO flats complete construction.

I think near the 3rd and 4th quarter of 2025 - we should see further softening of the BTO flat prices.


G, [17/1/2025 4:42 PM]

BTO was supposed implemented to address supposed surplus flats. 

Supposedly only build if orders hit minimum quantity.

Was there ever a BTO exercise where minimum quantity wasn't hit?

Over the years, BTO has effectively constricted public housing supply, thereby driving up prices

Why still persist with BTO? Why not revert to the previous model, to build ahead of time? Won't this help keep public housing prices more affordable? After all that is what HDB's mission is. Not to keep giving subsidies then claim that housing is affordable after that.. The fact that subsidies are needed in the first place means the original price of the flats are already not affordable


Joomua Tng, [17/1/2025 4:43 PM]

1.) Does increasing the supply will definitely lower the value to be more affordable?

to what extend?

not likely to shorten the waiting time nor speed up the building new hdb. we are limited by the shortage of workers in constructions. (just a guess). Does local construction companies have enough workers or capacities to speed up the process? unlikely.

2.) HFE will help the buyers, hopefully, understand whether it is within their means and how to plan their financial prudently. 

It is a good moves from the government  Though Singaporean is educated, not all are able to calculate and plan ahead and know where they stand, financially.

it will educate the population, and allowing us to see it in clarity. It, however, doesn't help in affordability.

3.) more cooling measure for the resales market? it is just temporary measures...it will not address the speculation in the market that drives up the prices.  (just like the fed playing with interest rate as a constant adjustment to the financial issue the U.S is facing.)

4.) Singaporean will still feel and experience the high price in resales public housing market.

the transparency of the data is a good moves, however, its effectiveness in reducing the high resales market value is yet to be observed.

however, the sellers can always insist on holding on to their high selling price despite the transparency of data.

Khai Mun L., [17/1/2025 5:43 PM]

Building new houses and providing grants is the safer choice. Compared to forcing buy/sell prices.

Existing home owners would make noise if they were forced to sell at lower or same price they bought.

However, new buildings requires land. And we have limited land size.

Might need to speed up demolishing of old houses or buildings, but have constraints by cultural activists (which some have valid points)

Adam, [17/1/2025 6:12 PM]

But even if build and provide grants, with the current system a large chunk of first timers are uneligible anyway

Noor Naffissah, [17/1/2025 6:12 PM]

Yes

Adam, [17/1/2025 6:15 PM]

Nvm ill live with parents forever. As an individual or even if find wife, my income is too high. As a household, per capita is very low.

System working as designed

Adam, [17/1/2025 6:15 PM]

Maybe if i force wife or myself to take on housekeeping role then i can bto

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [17/1/2025 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


====

Posted by at No comments:

Wednesday, January 15, 2025

REACH (Telegram) 52 - What are your thoughts about the results of the 2024 Polytechnic GES? What more can be done to continue ensuring desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates?

(SK)

15 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)


REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 9:48 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 10:00 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

On 13 Jan (Monday), the 2024 Polytechnic Graduate Employment Survey (GES) results were released, revealing that polytechnic graduates received higher salaries despite a fall in employment rates.

💬 What are your thoughts about the results of the 2024 Polytechnic GES? What more can be done to continue ensuring desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates?

Higher Salaries

A total of 7,614 out of 10,045 fresh polytechnic graduates responded to the survey as graduates were asked about their employment status as at Oct 1, 2024 – about six months after graduation. 

The median gross monthly salary of Polytechnic Graduates in full-time permanent employment grew to $2,900 in 2024, up from $2,800 in 2023.

Notably, graduates from health sciences, humanities and social sciences, and information and digital technologies reported the highest salaries, with each of these clusters seeing a median gross monthly salary of about $3,000.

Lower Employment Rates

50.4 per cent were in the labour force, while 48.9 per cent who were not actively looking for jobs were either pursuing or preparing to begin further studies. Of the rest, most said they were not seeking employment. 

Of graduates in the workforce, 87.5 per cent found permanent, freelance or part-time jobs within six months of graduation or after completion of full-time national service, a drop from 92.7 per cent in 2023 and 91.8 per cent in 2022. 

In a Facebook post about the 2024 GES results, Dr Maliki Osman, Second Minister for Education, said that the 2024 GES results “speak volumes” about the value of Singapore’s polytechnic education.

“While we are seeing some shifts in employment patterns, with more graduates opting for further studies, it’s encouraging to note that our graduates are commanding higher salaries across various sectors,” said Dr Maliki.

In a statement, Mr Soh Wai Wah, principal and chief executive of Singapore Polytechnic, said: “Given the evolving job landscape, we are actively working to equip our students with the necessary skills and adaptability to navigate this well. “This includes strengthening industry partnerships to provide real-world experience, integrating AI (artificial intelligence) literacy into our curriculum, and enhancing career guidance and support services,” said Mr Soh.

👉🏻 https://str.sg/H6X3

----


Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 10:05 AM]

Reasons why Singaporean birth rate is low

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:27 AM]

Has the pay kept up with inflation?

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:27 AM]

Or cost of bto?

Adam, [15/1/2025 10:31 AM]

2900 / 2800 = 3.7% increase

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 10:38 AM]

You do know that if pay increase too much, inflation also rises? Business have to charge more to pay the staff

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 10:38 AM]

Hmm, please elaborate. Which of the observation are you referring?

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : 1. I am confident that the Government is doing enough to ensure desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates. Please share the reason for your answer in the chats! ]

- Yes

- No

- Neutral

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 11:03 AM]

[ Poll : 2. I believe that Polytechnic education is sufficient to ensure desirable employment outcomes for fresh graduates. Please share the reason for your answer in the chats! ]

- Yes

- No

- Unsure

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:22 AM]

Employment is not guaranteed and university have no placement. So a huge percentage left with nothing to do

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:22 AM]

And become 啃老

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 11:26 AM]

Hmm, not understand how that links to birth rate. But ok, up to you

Nicholas, [15/1/2025 11:29 AM]

Are polytechnic students encouraged to go to university or to go straight to work? Recall university fresh graduates have a higher average monthly salary of approximately S$4k.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 11:29 AM]

Back to the topic, could it be graduates are selective in the jobs they want?

I observe there is a lack of blue collar workers e.g. plumbers, technicians, drivers. But locals not applying.

Are they comparing with the high paid jobs and holding out just for chance? Perhaps these hold-outs have good background and family support whereby they have resources to wait things out

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 11:43 AM]

Those are more technical skills which I think are more suitable for ite. it is also depends on course and industry. Some courses such as science requires degree

W Goo, [15/1/2025 11:44 AM]

Unless the blue collar job are peg in par or better than white collar (in term of wages and career ladder). 

So yes, they are being selective, but with a reason (We can ask ourselves now. Would we change to blue collar job now).

Gov intervention is never enough. There's balancing need to be done every now and then. So far so good but foresight is need.

TreasureHunter, [15/1/2025 12:59 PM]

Govt did put a lot of effort to spot the future economy. And to be ready for the workforce of the future, education are ready in place. For that I voted yes in Q1. The education in Poly would say is of good quality but in an open job market where your competitor could be a uni grad from another country could make poly grad lose out. For that I voted no in Q2

Dr. Goh, [15/1/2025 1:13 PM]

Poly education not enough for higher end jobs. Training students to do repetitive technical work essentially. The decades old problem of suppressing pay because employees don't have degrees is still existent.

If you also observe job listings many employers play the chicken and egg game. Need long list of experience to qualify for an entry job, so no one who upgrades or switches field can ever qualify. Then likely to bring in kakilang for the job.

Even if you place a hard quota on hiring the country will still run smoothly. Employers are simply playing the lowball game knowing government will support them.

Also, to prove that foreign talent policies actually work, try not giving out grants for supporting jobs for new citizens, see how many of them are talented enough to keep the companies rooted here. Must test real ability, not give out tax dollars like freebies and then create the falsehood that we actually bring in many real talents. Put in hard quota for hiring local born as a significant percentage of payroll to qualify for grants. We don't need to waste money keeping companies that don't want to contribute. Many jobs just need you to have that title. The roles are not difficult at all and the experience will basically qualify people for other similar roles based on experience alone. You could press a button on AI and many of these jobs will disappear today.

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 1:35 PM]

This is why gov needs to expand uni placements to ensure every student can get into it

A lot of jobs need degree as an entry level and low end job hardly have a future. 

If you work as a plumber you will always be plumber. Hardly your career path can bring you to top management and value add in the knowledge compared to a accountant which have more career path and longer runway

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 1:38 PM]

For poly look at life sciences course a lot of the jobs required to have a degree

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:00 PM]

I not agree with 'every student can get into uni'. Dilutes the standard and purpose of degree. If everyone degree then what's the point of it? Next time must aim for masters?

Also, being a plumber might not mean want to move into management roles. You could become a specialist in certain pipes/taps and charge more based on those repair/installation.

Or jack up your asking prices because there's no competition. One of the reasons why maintenance stuff so expensive now.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:02 PM]

Also, blue collar jobs have some degree of freedom. Plumbers could set their own appointment times, decide to accept the task or not etc. 

Kind of why ppl want to be grab drivers or delivery. Freedom of choice and working hours

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 2:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:06 PM]

Currently, why are we importing degree holders? Do we want to force singaporean into a diploma so that thier foreign bosses have a singaporean to supervise? Why do we give place to foreign students if our locals have no room?

Would the standard of the degree drop because we let more people in? Surely there is a way of accounting for that. Employers already differentiate between an A student and those below

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:08 PM]

So the question of if every singaporean has a degree. Look at what we are doing now. Do we have singaporean laborers or maids. DO We want that? Of course not. We know what we need to do if every singaporean is highly educated

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:10 PM]

We also know what companies will do whenever they complain 'not enough local talent'

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:13 PM]

Remember, we are competing internationally. And a hugeee portion of our workforce arent singaporean. If every singaporean has a degree, job placement will be filled up via import

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:16 PM]

Every Singapore to have a degree? Some people do not do well with theory based learning, which most degrees are. Force them to take degree just to flunk them at the end?

There's no specific way of differentiate between grades. I know of some uni holders that have bad work attitudes etc. whereas a poly grad could be more hardworking and technically better.

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:17 PM]

Im not saying to force them, but to remove the artificial cap

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:18 PM]

Since competing globally, we need to be strong in what we're good at. Some are more skills based, others research, or programming.

Opportunities have to be provided for them, if they want, to be trained and specialize in what they want to be good at.

Instead of forcing them to degree pathway

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:19 PM]

In fact, these days we Must encourage more people in your uni. You know what happens to your precious degree when the uni has not enough students. Because of declining pop, the uni has a real risk of shutting down

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:19 PM]

What artificial cap are you referring?

Uni places or work permit quotas or something else?

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:23 PM]

Uni has limit the admissions so there is enough space but from what i see, there is still plenty of space, especially with hybrid virtual these days

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:24 PM]

And we are still taking in foreign student. Now they might be the cream of the crop(i doubt it) but its an indicator that there is room not used for developing locals

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:37 PM]

Is Singapore still trapped in the qualification trap attitudes?

Degree qualifications may gives the person a head start. doesn't mean it will be smooth sailing or successful career with high paying pay cheques.

......

assuming, every Singaporean is academically good and able to obtain degree qualifications...

how is all of them going to be CEO? managers?

Cleaners? Sales like insurance agent, bankers? Hawkers?

..............

What about entrepreneur? business starters? it is about individual's will, attitude, determination and drives to make it good or great in life.

how to sell oneself, advertising, branding and positioning in the competitive market out there.

...........

and yes, we need foreign students, so that hopefully those talented willing to contribute to Singapore's progress.

it is a competitive world, internationally. Cannot be a frog in the well thinking we can live comfortably without a good fight for employability, and, or, starting of businesses, creating jobs, and new jobs for Singapore.

......

the problem with some Singaporean, is that a portion of us lagging behind in competitiveness, competency and capabilities, and still want that high paying job.

stop complaining and start working hard, as in using our brains thinking of ways to get that dream job with good pay by upgrading, self improvement, self branding etc.

while doing so...the government must continuous monitoring the ground to deter discrimination, monopolizing of workplace with unfair recruitment practices.

Like tribalism recruitment...the so called, for e.g only, indian hiring indian not because of abilities assessment, but because they are indian, or Chinese hiring chinese only.

does such unfair hiring exist... realistic it does exist.. but to detect it and proves it...is not an easy straight forward task.

..........

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:41 PM]

If open uni to all sg that wants, then why current students still want to go ivy league unis? Even though they can go local uni?

Is it a matter of prestige because they have restrictions and companies want to hire them because they are hard to enter?

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:44 PM]

Singaporean still stuck in the thinking that degree qualifications = confirmed employability with high paying jobs.

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:45 PM]

I don't know what would happen to open all? Could it become like compulsory secondard education, whereby that cert is almost useless for workplace

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 2:46 PM]

Mistake, should be primary school cert

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 2:48 PM]

it will lower the quality... eventually.

 if the standard is not uphold with strict criteria.

it doesn't mean anyone have a degree can contribute to society...

or able to compete internationally.

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:52 PM]

Chicken an egg problem. We are trapped in degree qualification because of employers. If you see public service stop asking you will see less people trying to get degree

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 2:56 PM]

Because a lot of jobs that one desire needs a degree

Adam, [15/1/2025 2:56 PM]

A lot of job placements ask for a degree. But really doesnt need it


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 2:58 PM]

*Pathway to Universities*


1. There are 2 pathways to Universities, 

a. the main pathway is through JCs (provide a solid foundation in math, science such as physics, chemistry, biology, computing and GP to cultivate critical thinking skills and appreciation of national and global development) - in preparation for entrance into Universities on industry specialization at higher level/R&D.

b. the secondary pathway is through polytechnics (focus in industry specialization) - in preparation for entry into workforce upon graduation.


2. The reason why polytechnics is created is because there are middle roles like technicians, junior engineers and technical roles that needs hands-on implementation skillsets that is immediately relevant to the needs of the organisation.


3. Universities produce graduates that can work at strategic level, management role, engineer and senior engineer level, able to do critical thinking, think out of the box and connect dots to appreciate a bigger picture in which the organisation operates (eg. understand the organisations customers, partners, supply chain, competitive landscape, oppportunities and threat, growth potential, technological advantages, R&D potential for new market, comparative advantage, competitive advantages etc)


Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 3:01 PM]

unfortunately, or fortunately,

Degree Qualifications is a measure of a person's abilities, organization skills, leadership, capabilities...

provided the education system is properly designed and uphold.

.....what other ways to measure a person's abilities, quality, capabilities and leadership?

i can think of one. place a person on a task, deep end of the pool, and see how the person perform. what is the outcome of the task.

ultimately, in the commercial market... result is what matters.

without result, e.g. profits, so what the person has a degree qualifications...the company will definitely replace the person with someone else who can produce results.

other than that...what other ways to effectively measure a person, beside qualifications.


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 3:32 PM]

1. Recall a team of well trained technical engineers - jump straight into design and produce a technical sound design and technical solutions with BOM (Bill Of Materials) to bid for a tender.


2. 3 other competitior tenderers already has a "leg" to this organisation - as each has win previous tenders and run a module through 1 data centre.


3. This 4th tenderers is a "black horse" - new to the organisation - and has no incumbent advantage.


4. All the 4 tenderers need to submit a solution with 2 data centres.


5. The 4th tenderer need to provide 2 data centre solution, whereas the 3 incumbent need to provide 1 data centre solution and extend their existing systems.


6. Hence the 4th tenderer is in a very big disadvantage - because if it provide similar traditional solutions - prices will be highly uncompetitive as compare to the 3 incumbent tenderers.


7. A solution architect come along to join the tender bid. The 1st thing he did is to tell the team of competent engineers - "throw away your design and BOM" - because you will lose the tender if based on your design - because the 3 tenderers will beat you hands down - as your price will be twice the cost of your 3 incumbent competitors - if you focus on the traditional design.


8. What is the point of diligently producing the design - just "going through the motion" - and lose in the end - to show you do your job?


9. You must design to win - and beat all the 3 incumbent tenderers - and your design must be one that :-

a. Competitors has never seen or design before.

b. Reduce 2 data centre footprints into 1 data centre footprint - but distribute into 2 data centre at a similar cost like 1 data centre.

c. Compute for what will be the cost of all the 3 competitors - using traditional design - and ensure the new design will be lower than theirs.

d. Ensure the new design is light weight, highly versatile, resilient, no single point of failure, highly scalable, and highly upgradeable --- as the "selling point" that will differentiate from the 3 competitors.


10. In the end, the solution architect come out with such design - that beat the 3 incumbent competitiors in prices, in design - and set a benchmark for the organisation for future tenders for such design.


The 3 incumbent competitors fall off the chair - as they rule out the 4th tenderer as a "joker" that cannot win - just to make up the number.

And in the end, the whole IT industry 轰动 for pulling such "mission impossible feat".


11. This is what local Universities of "Ivy League" qualities should produce such graduates - to make Singapore competitive.


12. Not only producing Universities graduates for the sake of quantity and number - but high quality graduates that are competitive and can compete with the World.


Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 3:38 PM]

nice story. real incident?

ideally that's what qualifications should be. Be it diploma or degree.

ideal condition seldom exists in real life.


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 3:41 PM]

Of course real story - not make up.

Else how to relate such story.

One competitor is a global overseas competitor.

Beating it make the competition world class.

Anyway that design is the 1st in the world that produce at such a scale - at that time.

In fact, at one point, critics voice whether such design can work or scale or not.

A proof of concept was implemented within 2 weeks to convince the customer that is can scale and highly versatile and yet cost effective.


REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 4:06 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 4:10 PM]

alright. 

...

a something to note and remind ourselves...when it comes to competitiveness, anything is possible.

up to us to make the effort to think of solutions.


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:11 PM]

1. Note :- We should compare polytechnic graduates directly with JC graduates.

One armed with Diploma and the other armed with A level. 

If enter into workforce, a diploma holder will fetch higher pay $2,900 to $3,000 or over.

If A level enter into workforce, no study on salary figures - but definitely lower than diploma holder and poorer job prospect.


2. Hence, for polytechnic graduates, it is good to enter into workforce to work for 2 to 3 years to gain experience and utilise the diploma skillsets to the max - to gain valuable working experience that will not be make available to JC A level graduates going into Universities.

Also good chance to earn Universities school fees (about $30,000 or more for a 4 year course) 

For a diploma holder if work for 3 years = $3,000 x 12 months x 3 years = $108,000.

If set aside 1/3 of salaries - it will be $36,000 sufficient for Universities school fees and some living expenses.


Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 4:14 PM]

diploma should compare with degree instead of against A level.

raise the benchmark instead of lowering it.

polytechnic graduate can be as capable as degree graduate if not better, in the workforce.

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:17 PM]

Can be as capable doesnt reflect in salary

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:18 PM]

So we can say and discuss this to hell, but will gov do anything about it employer side?


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:23 PM]

3. There are multiple pathways for polytechnic graduates with working experience to further their studies in Universities.


4. Primary routes is through SIT University - whereby most polytechnic graduates should be able to gain a place. SIT University in Punggol that consolidate all polytechnic campuses provide a direct placement with industries during the University course (if I am not wrong, based on what I previously read from the CNA and Straits Times).


5. The better ones, cream of the crop from polytechincs can go to NUS and NTU "our local Ivy League qualities local Universities".

Note :- This 2 local Universities are R&D based and must have solid foundation in basic higher Math, advanced science, critical thinkings that will spur R&D innovation. This is unlike SIT University that is more industry relevant in which diploma graduates are more adapted to.

Note:- I received feedback that most polytechnic graduates do relatively well in projects that demand their industry specialisation skills. But come to foundational math, science, critical thinkings and R&D (innovative research topics) --- they mostly struggle and don't get good results for such subjects.

Note :- fail subjects are quite high and some even dropout ...


Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 4:24 PM]

Yes. But this doesn't reflect on corporate world

Khai Mun L., [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

There need to be a mindset change from everyone, not only employers.

Would you want to have your kid marry a poly or degree graduate? Similar, white vs blue collar.

All of us should be looking at individual personalities and skillsets instead of our bias and sterotypes

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

So is singaporeans on the ground expected to do this?

Jun Ming, [15/1/2025 4:30 PM]

For marriage I don't really care so much as long they have work life balance

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:31 PM]

How would the intl busniesses react if they get a flood of poly applicants claiming they are skilled enough?

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:33 PM]

I wonder who they will choose. The singapore poly everyone knows, or a random uni overseas, not ivy league.

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:34 PM]

I wonder how our poly grads compare though. Is there any stats?

Adam, [15/1/2025 4:35 PM]

I wonder how thoroughly employers verify credentials too


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:36 PM]

6. Of course there are other local Universities like SUSS, SMU, SUTD - that will also take in some polytechnic graduates.


7. Note :- NUS and NTU in particular also accept foreign scholarship - but the standard is very high. I heard that a France scholar after 1 semseter in NUS, dropout after that and need to repay the scholarship sponsor to the sponsor - because she say the NUS standards very high - have problem following.


8. Also same comments from foreign top students on scholarship - that study in NUS and NTU say standards are very high - and they are struggling to cope. (Read from some news).


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 4:43 PM]

1. Having say so, I think about half or more polytechnics graduates will progress to pursue Universities degree after working for sometimes having earn enough Universities school fees and earn some working experience.


2. The rest will work as diploma holders, gain working experience and take on professional specialise course relevant to their organisation needs and move vertically or horizontally or move up the ladder.


3. It depends on the aspiration of the diploma holders. Those who want to puruse University degrees will have a chance to do so.

Those who wish to upgrade organically with their diploma through professional certification course will also continue to do so.

I think organisation will not stop promoting a diploma graduates to higher position if they possess the potential and flair to move upwards.


Because organisation are very smart. Capable staff they will keep - whether diploma or degree holders are immaterial.

不管他是黑猫白猫，能干的猫就是好猫。


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 5:11 PM]

Eg. 

1. A diploma holder who hold a ACCA certificate earn as much as an accountant graduates.


2. A diploma holder in computer science holding a cissp or ccie earn the same pay as computer science university graduate.

So is university degree the only pathway?

Evidently not.


LCL (Danny 心), [15/1/2025 5:23 PM]

Hence all the opportunities and multiple pathways are out there.

It all depends on the individuals how to seize it.

The last thing I will blame is the government, because the government has provided all the pathways possible.

It now depends on individual how to exploit it to suit individual needs.


REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 6:05 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Joomua Tng, [15/1/2025 6:18 PM]

the internship program in polytechnic and in university is very useful, and may increase the poly and uni undergrad chance of securing a job upon graduation.

should continue to promote it and see if it can be expanded into internship in MNC or short term internship overseas, not sure how feasible it will be.

spreading the net wide so that undergrad can have a feel and sense of the working world.

there bound to be a few who is more adventurous and capable enough to get an internship by their own effort.

(it is a good sign, and maybe an indicator that these are proactive student with self initiative and drives and planning)

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 6:47 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [15/1/2025 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


====

Posted by at No comments:

Thursday, January 9, 2025

REACH (Telegram) 51 - What do you think of the Government’s position that NRICs remain personal data, and should be collected and used only when necessary? What more could be done to strengthen personal data protection?

(SK)

09 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)


REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 10:33 AM]

Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10.45am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 10:46 AM]

🔉 TOPIC 🔈

In Parliament on Jan 8, Digital Development and Information Minister Josephine Teo and Second Finance Minister Indranee Rajah addressed questions related to NRIC and the ACRA incident.

Min Teo addressed the Government's intent to change the practice of masking NRIC numbers and how the Government intended to stop some "incorrect uses" of the NRIC number today, as well as what private sector organisations should do.

Min Indranee elaborated on what happened after news of the disclosure of NRIC numbers on the Bizfile portal broke, and ACRA's next actions.

💭 What do you think of the Government’s position that NRICs remain personal data, and should be collected and used only when necessary? What more could be done to strengthen personal data protection?

📌 Incorrect use of the NRIC number

NRIC numbers remain a form of personal data, and should be collected and used only when necessary. Organisations that collect NRIC numbers have a duty of care, and must notify and seek consent on the use of the data and protect it, said Min Teo. 

Min Teo also said that NRIC numbers are a means to identify individuals but some organisations have wrongly used the numbers as a means of authentication--which assumes that a person is who he claims to be simply because he can cite an NRIC number.

Another example is when organisations collect and use partial or masked NRIC numbers. However, continuing this would give Singaporeans a "false sense of security," said Min Teo, as algorithms that can guess or work out full NRIC numbers are now available online. If people think that their full NRIC number is still secret and use it as a password or authenticator, the risk of scams or identity theft will rise, she added.

📌 Next steps for the private sector

Private sector organisations that are using NRIC numbers as authentication factors or default passwords should stop this practice as soon as possible, Min Teo.

 Min Teo also said that private sector organisations that now collect partial NRIC numbers to identify people can continue to do so. "The guidelines for the private sector have not yet changed and we will only consider how they should be updated after consulting the public", she added.

📌 ACRA's new Bizfile Portal

More than 500,000 searches were made on a Government business filing website over five days in December after news emerged that people's names and full National Registration Identity Card (NRIC) numbers could be found.

This was much higher than the usual 2,000 to 3,000 daily queries made on the ACRA Bizfile website, said Min Indranee.

However, authorities are unable to identify the exact number of NRIC numbers disclosed as the Bizfile portal is not configured to track individual queries, Ms Indranee said in a ministerial statement delivered.

“Thus far, we have not uncovered any known threat actors based on the IP addresses that were used to make the people search queries between Dec 9 and 13.”

The minister also stressed that ACRA’s database does not contain the information of all Singapore citizens.

📌 Review Panel

A review panel, led by the Head of Civil Service Leo Yip and reporting to Senior Minister Teo Chee Hean, has been set up.

Min Indranee said the panel will review the Government’s policy on the responsible use of NRIC numbers and the disclosure of full NRIC numbers on ACRA’s Bizfile portal.

The panel expects to complete its review in February and will share its findings thereafter.

🔗 [ST] https://str.sg/knvd

📎 [CNA] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/acra-bizfile-nric-numbers-unmasked-josephine-teo-mddi-4844761

📎 [CNA] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/more-500000-searches-acra-bizfile-portal-dec-9-13-nric-indranee-4844871

----


G, [9/1/2025 11:09 AM]

"More than 500,000 searches were made on a Government business filing website over five days in December after news emerged that people's names and full National Registration Identity Card (NRIC) numbers could be found.

This was much higher than the usual 2,000 to 3,000 daily queries made on the ACRA Bizfile website, said Min Indranee.

However, authorities are unable to identify the exact number of NRIC numbers disclosed as the Bizfile portal is not configured to track individual queries, Ms Indranee said in a ministerial statement delivered."

CNA also reported:

"The website's updated search function was launched on Dec 9 and most of the queries were made on Dec 13, the day after news of the NRIC numbers broke." 

"The minister also noted that a security feature designed to distinguish between human users and computer bots in the portal’s search function “was not working as intended”, following a security review by ACRA and GovTech."

So means what.. lots of data kena mined by bots and assumed leaked already right?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:15 AM]

心法:

327. I post in REACH (Telegram) LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 2:40 PM]:-

1. So in my opinion, as long as human heart and mindset don't change, regardless of how much effort put in by government to curb job discrimination - business still have a way to circumvent it.

2. Changing the heart and mindset will be more effective than focusing on policies alone.

Because no amount of policies or legislation can monitor or change a business conduct, if people's minds and heart don't change. 

(阳奉阴违 will be the outcome.) (Disguise form of conforming, but hidden ways of discriminating acts to avoid penalty).

3. As long as profit maximization and KPI remain the core principle for top management or bosses - job discrimination cannot be eradicated.

4. It begins with the bosses and top management heart and mind.

（要重組，要转型 - 从“心”开始）.

----

CNA news 08 Jan 2025 08:49PM

The manpower ministry said that while there is now legal recourse for workplace discrimination, it will still take an “education-first approach” to cultivate the right mindsets among employers and workers.


****

1. See, even the Minister concur and share the view that no amount of legislation and guidelines can curb age discrimination.


2. Only "education-first approach" to cultivate the right mindsets among the employers and workers will work.


3. Changing the heart and mind of people is the only way that can uproot unhealthy practice.

从”心”开始。


Daniel, [9/1/2025 11:16 AM]

I think that is not today's topic


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:17 AM]

4. So even young bosses and top management will grow old one day.

If their mindset don't change - next time it will be their turn.

风水轮流转。


5. This will be a powerful message to transform the young bosses and top management mindsets.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:18 AM]

Is there any information that the data has been mine by bots?

Or is it just an assumption not supported by proof?


REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 11:22 AM]

[ Poll : I am satisfied with the government's latest statements and follow-ups on the NRIC issue (Please share your views in the chats.) ]

- Yes

- Neutral

- No


G, [9/1/2025 11:22 AM]

Where's the proof that's it's not mined by bots?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:24 AM]

Simple.

If you can explain in technical terms how to detect bots operate and how to detect a legitimate device access the website - before jumping into conclusion.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:36 AM]

1. “Thus far, we have not uncovered any known threat actors based on the IP addresses that were used to make the people search queries between Dec 9 and 13.”


2. The searches came from an estimated 28,000 Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, most of which were from Singapore. 


These are 2 big clues that legitimate devices access the website and not bots even though a high volume of 500,000 search are made by 28,000 IP addresses.

I just make 2 searches yesterday.

And my IP address will be one of them that have conducted the 2 searches.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:43 AM]

1. A security feature to distinguish between a bot and legitimate device not functioning doesn't mean a bot cannot be detected.


2. There are 7 layers in an OSI model.


3. It means the app layer the 7th layer, apps layer are not working to detect the bots.


4. But there are other layers like 3rd layer and 2nd layer eg. IP address and Mac layer to detect whether bots are used.


5. Bots are usually exploited by very skillful hackers who have very strong computer science proficiencies - to hack and take over IP devices, write programming code and do a mass attack from many compromise IP devices all over the world to access the website.


6. It could even be a State hacker if bots are used because hackers will need to crack and hack many password protected ioT devices to download malware as bots into the compromised devices such as routers, IP camera, IP CCTV, servers, PCs, smartphones, any many other IP based devices or ioT remotely and then launch a massive attack on ACRA website.


7. Even if ACRA apps to detect bots fail - there are many mechanism in Telcos, CSA SIEMS and ACRA security and network devices that can detect a bot attack.


The Minister statement imply this - did not uncovered any known threat actors.

And most of the IP address come from Singapore - means public IP address are registered and issued by the Telcos through DHCP or static IP addresses traced to legitimate users.


G, [9/1/2025 11:44 AM]

"More than 500,000 searches were made on a Government business filing website over five days in December after news emerged that people's names and full National Registration Identity Card (NRIC) numbers could be found.

This was much higher than the usual 2,000 to 3,000 daily queries made on the ACRA Bizfile website, said Min Indranee.

CNA also reported:

"The website's updated search function was launched on Dec 9 and most of the queries were made on Dec 13, the day after news of the NRIC numbers broke." 

"The minister also noted that a security feature designed to distinguish between human users and computer bots in the portal’s search function “was not working as intended”, following a security review by ACRA and GovTech."

Since you like to ask others to figure it out for themselves.. you go figure it out yourself

😂

G, [9/1/2025 11:45 AM]

A bot running from your computer has no IP address?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:45 AM]

That is why you only read the face value facts without understanding the underlying mechanism how it works - and quickly jump into conclusion.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:47 AM]

Explain how IP address and Mac are assigned and how are they detected - by bots and legitimate devices.

Then convince everyone here.


G, [9/1/2025 11:48 AM]

I don't see why I have to adhere to your standard when you don't adhere to your own


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 11:49 AM]

Hahaha.

Any computer science or network professionals in the forum to explain to this gentleman how bots and legitimate devices work in a network?


G, [9/1/2025 11:54 AM]

Very disappointing that JT side stepped and didn't answer GG's query on whether govt agencies and organisations will be legally prohibited from using NRICs as authenticators, instead repeating her broken record on private sector

"Pointing out that large, regulated organisations such as insurers were reportedly still using NRIC numbers as default passwords, MP Gerald Giam (WP-Aljunied) asked if the government will legally prohibit government agencies and organisations from using NRIC numbers as authenticators and do so by a certain deadline.

In response, Mrs Teo said the practices for the private sector will have to be decided upon consultation."

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nric-unmasking-opposition-mps-wp-psp-acra-bizfile-portal-compensation-4845286

G, [9/1/2025 11:57 AM]

This whole saga looks, sounds, and feels like govt made mistake. But when pointed out, they turn around and blame citizens for having incorrect understanding of NRIC usage

Fine gaslighting


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 12:00 PM]

WP MP Gerald Giam is a IT manager.

He would be able to understand the Minister statement if indeed bots are attacking the website or legitimate devices are accessing the website.

Evidently, Gerald Giam didn't suggest bots are attacking the website.

Also if there are indications that bots are attacking the website - MHA, CSA and police will have taken up the case to investigate as this will be a cyberattack on a government website.

Any indication of that?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 12:38 PM]

1. Because ACRA come under MOF - and should be categorise as a CII (Critical Information Infrastructure).


2. So it should be monitored by CSA SIEMS for any sign or indication of cyberattack.


3. Looking at the news, CSA didn't raise an alert that bots are in the work or showing signs of a DDoS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack have taken place.


4. Hence another clue that legitimate devices are accessing the ACRA website, not the work of DDoS bots.


G, [9/1/2025 12:41 PM]

"One of the Block 386 residents said People's Action Party volunteers knocked on his door on Jan 4 and advised him to keep his door closed.

“There were two women from PAP who knocked on my door and they told me the opposition party was here to 'disturb',” he told The New Paper.

"They told me to ignore knocks from PSP members and keep my door closed.

“It's my first time seeing this type of behaviour and I find it childish.”"

https://tnp.straitstimes.com/news/singapore/bukit-gombak-residents-call-pap-psp-spat-childish-boh-liao

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 1:14 PM]

So it means they cannot actually distinguished if it is bots or real search of nric


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:17 PM]

Using apps that wasn't functioning at that time, couldn't. Eg. Captcha.

But through other means - can.

Later I will explain how digital forensics are done to determine whether it is a bot or legitimate users.

But it will be very technical.


Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 1:18 PM]

Ok. So they have come to a conclusion bots are involved in majority searches?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:18 PM]

They say they will review.

But the preliminary investigation does not show the sign of a bot.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:19 PM]

Later when I explain you will understand.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:21 PM]

But don't be misled by the high search rate.

I could have easily perform 10 searches in one access to the ACRA website.

Though I say 2 searches yesterday, but more than 10 results come out.

So it could be 20 searches.

I don't know how ACRA website tabulate the search results.

My physical search are 2 but result are 20 searches.


Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 1:22 PM]

Oh

G, [9/1/2025 1:22 PM]

Confusing "searches" with "search results"?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:23 PM]

Go to do the search if you want to know what I mean.


G, [9/1/2025 1:23 PM]

Here say 500,000 searches


G, [9/1/2025 1:24 PM]

Your comment try to equate "searches" with "search results"


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:25 PM]

Sigh....

Not answering.


G, [9/1/2025 1:25 PM]

So be misled with this attempt?

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 1:26 PM]

Regardless there will be 500000 data being revealed

G, [9/1/2025 1:26 PM]

Are you saying minister trying to mislead by saying "500,000 searches"?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 1:26 PM]

Yes.

I will spend time responding to your more intelligent questions later.


G, [9/1/2025 1:29 PM]

Assumes 1 result per search

But according to @DannyCIN, he say 2 search, with 10 results = 20 searches. 

According to his formula, if 500,000 searches have 10 results, = 5,000,000 searches

RY, [9/1/2025 1:55 PM]

If I rem correctly, they did hold a press conf and ACRA did apologise to the public

RY, [9/1/2025 1:59 PM]

There is mis-communication/mis-understanding in the govt directives to ACRA 

Maybe govt/top mgmt shd learn fm this "mistake" incident 

Nothing is perfect, and we shd always learn fm 'mistake" always

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 2:01 PM]

🔉 TOPIC 🔈

RY, [9/1/2025 2:01 PM]

What has happened already happen

Most important is to quickly "salvage" whatever "data disclosure" damage fm this saga, admit "mistake" made and learn fm the lesson

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 2:04 PM]

I think responsibility and punishment should be done after the whole incident

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 2:05 PM]

Investigation

Hanny, [9/1/2025 2:06 PM]

IC number should never be used for authentication. There has been many break-ins in the past and many ic numbers have been compromised. Mining IC numbers can also be easily performed at shops. In the old days, people sell name and address to credit card issuers. Now people sell ic numbers.

RY, [9/1/2025 2:07 PM]

NRiC certainly is our personal data and should not be widely used or openly disclosed 

However, wondering when govt mention private orgn, does it include banks / insurance companies also ?

As these orgn widely used NRIC info as verification/authenication too

Hanny, [9/1/2025 2:11 PM]

Government should make it illegal to use ic for authentication.

RY, [9/1/2025 2:11 PM]

Govt already set up a grp to specially investigate this "saga"

Believe rectification/improvement proposal will be included in the Report later

RY, [9/1/2025 2:20 PM]

Scamming is so so so common nowsaday due to digital world and  IT "hacking" (leaking of personal data)

Hence, NRIC shd be masked and not widely used 

Same analogy as credit/debit card details in payment receipt


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 2:25 PM]

*Part 1 - How preliiminary investigation can be conducted through digital forensic in the absence of bot detector apps to determine if bots or legitimate users access the ACRA search website.*


1. Normally to determine  whether a bot has accessed a website, Bot detector like CAPTCHA will challenge the users to provide the right answer that will be difficult for bots to solve.

Then the Government will be able to provide proof without reasonable doubt that a bot has access the ACRA website.

As such apps is not functioning at that time, such empirical evidence cannot be captured and produce to tabulate indeed how many bots have attacked the ACRA website without reasonable doubt.


2. Then more technical and indepth digital forensic need to be conducted - to correlate and derive whether indeed a bot or legitimate user are accessing ACRA website to do the search.


3. The information given by the Minister are that :-


a. 28,000 IP addressess have accessed the ACRA website search. (They have to be public IP address registered and issued by Telcos through DHCP or static IP address assigned - to the IP devices - to allow Internet connection and access to take place. And public IP addresses have to be unique in the World - else IP address conflict will take place causing IP connection to fail. Hence it cannot be a private IP address - assigned by a hacker or any users).

Hence Telco will be able to trace who are assigned with this IP address - is it a handphone user, broadband laptop users, or ioT registered devices (that will be compromise by hackers).


b. Most of these IP addressess come from Singapore. Means Telcos, Government can do forensic studies on their network and security devices to examine if the IP address are legitimate users or ioT devices - from the network information stored in the Telco network databse.


These 2 are vital clues - that will allow digital forsenics to be conducted to establish whether a bot or legitimate users are accessing the ACRA website - as they are all within the network domain of Singapore Internet network.

---


G, [9/1/2025 2:28 PM]

They should also make it illegal for themselves to use IC for authentication? 

Else it be another PDPA.. rules for thee, but not for me?


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 2:43 PM]

Part 2 - Let us understand how does a bot work.


1. Based on the 28,000 IP address accessing ACRA websites - if a bot takes place, it will be a hybrid of legitimate users and bot attacks. But bots being automated will dominate the access - as it work in a mass DDoS and faster than users with hand click to access the website - and crowd out all the legitimate users.


2. Hence for easier discussion, we assume 28,000 IP addresses are bots that have crowd out all legitimate users.


3. Hackers will need to hack into 28,000 IP based ioT devices - that will be protected by various means of security protection.

It could be a simple userid/password, it could be 2FA, it could be multi-factor authentication, it could be biometric protection, it could be digital token, secured by all sorts of encryption algorithm eg. RSA, 3DES, DES, AES etc.

And the ioT can be servers, PCs, laptops, network devices like routers, LAN switches, IT security devices like firewall, IPS, Proxies, APT, smartphones, IP CCTV, IP camera, IP fridge, IP aircon, IP cars etc.

To do so, a very big team of very skilled computer science, network, security system hackers etc - with very diverse range of IT knowledge such as Apple iOS, Android, Microsoft OS, Unix, Linux, Cisco ioS, TCP/IP, VMs, etc

Indeed everything happens in Singapore, that means to pool such a big teams of bot attacks - Singapore all network professionals, IT security professionals, white hackers, AI expertise, IT system professionals etc ---- albeit State Hacker effort will be needed to hack into ioT devices - write the malware, load into the ioT devices, set the time to launch a coordinated DDoS attack on the ACRA website.


Else it will be a global season hackers doing coordinated bots attack.


Or it would be a foreign State Hacker pulling all their resources to launch the bots attack.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 2:45 PM]

Hacking into 1 ioT device is a very difficult task for a well protected ioT device by a professional hacker.

Compromising 28,000 ioT devices ....


RY, [9/1/2025 2:50 PM]

Let the special panel set up by govt do the investigation, as they will have/engage the professionals and resources to do so 

We dont require to discuss in details, as it is not within our expertise and resources to do so

G, [9/1/2025 2:51 PM]

Let him say. He wants to showcase his technical know-how and try to prove and convince us that it's not a bot attack

RY, [9/1/2025 2:56 PM]

PDPA is a gd Bill pass by Govt and authority being set up to protect personal data privacy 

I recd much much lesser scams and unsolicited sales calls/message nowsadays 

And receipts dont imprint my full card details (except last 4 digits) anymore

RY, [9/1/2025 2:59 PM]

In my opinion, rectifying and learning the mistakes, and room for improvement is more essential

Khai Mun L., [9/1/2025 3:01 PM]

It's a matter of perspective here. Some think nric should be confidental info, but some is not.

Especially when nric numbers have been already exposed out e.g. in the past or recent. Should we still continue with it as confidential?

What can be used to identify if a person is real? Maybe a combination of information, or setup some new social security number?

G, [9/1/2025 3:01 PM]

Yes.. but PDPA does not apply to govt..


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 3:03 PM]

Part 3 - What is the technical mechanism in a network - that determine whether it is a bot or a legitimate users?


1. When a legitimate user buy a smartphone, it will have to be registered with a Telco - who will assign a public IP address (Layer 3) to the user smartphone (could be DHCP - Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol) or static IP address.

This smartphone MAC (Medium Access Control) address (Layer 2) - also a registered unique address in the World (assign to device manufacturer) - will be capture by the Telco.

Both of these 2 information will uniquely identified the legitimate user. (Of course IMEI number will also be capture).


2. When a legitimate user buy a broadband/WiFi from a Telco - likewise  public IP address, MAC address will also be registered and assigned by the Telcos with telephone number - again uniquely identifying the legitimate users


3. When user buy ioT devices like IP CCTV, IP camera etc - it will have to be registered with a Telco - because it need Telcos to assigned public IP address for Internet connection - and again MAC address are also capture by the Telcos - uniquely identifying this is a ioT device and not legitimate user.

So assume this ioT is compromise and hack by hackers to operate as bot, digital forensic conducted by the Government through network information given by Telcos - will have identified if this ioT operate by bots has indeed access ACRA website.


4. Based on the Minister statement - no known threat actor has access the ACRA website - which means no ioT IP address and MAC are capture to have access ACRA website.

It means legitimate users IP address and MAC address are accessing ACRA website.


5. MAC address which is a directly access layer 2 information through ARP (Address Resolution Protocol) and DHCP to acquire layer 3 IP address will be required for a legitimate user or iOT to connect and access the ACRA website.


6. Hence studying the logs in ACRA routers, firewall, server and Telco's security and network logs as well as CSA SIEMS security, incident and events management systems and logs --- will have revealed that legitimate users with registered public IP address and MAC address have accessed the ACRA websites and not ioT devices.


This will have ruled out the bot attacks.


RY, [9/1/2025 3:03 PM]

That explains the ACRA saga ... 

Then Govt shd look into PDPA also then

G, [9/1/2025 3:05 PM]

Hence Gerald Giam's asking "...if the government will legally prohibit government agencies and organisations from using NRIC numbers as authenticators and do so by a certain deadline..."

But JT side stepped and kept on talking only about private organisations

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/nric-unmasking-opposition-mps-wp-psp-acra-bizfile-portal-compensation-4845286

RY, [9/1/2025 3:05 PM]

NRiC certainly is personal and confidential data

Otherwise, it wont be used as verification/authenication purposes

RY, [9/1/2025 3:08 PM]

Different people may have different perspectives 

But personal data is personal data, it is a fact ultimately

Khai Mun L., [9/1/2025 3:13 PM]

Going by this, i would think government should not be bound to same strict standards as private sector.

Some method of authentication needs to be used by them. Especially when sharing info across agencies e.g. hdb to iras for tax matters, moh to cpf for medical claims etc

Khai Mun L., [9/1/2025 3:14 PM]

But then gray area comes in for agencies such as ACRA and semi-gov hospital/education sectors

RY, [9/1/2025 3:14 PM]

That is also my earlier msg/qns

Is banks/insurance companies consider private orgns ?

As they also use NRIC as part of their authenication process

RY, [9/1/2025 3:16 PM]

Agreed and the govt/special panel set up should review on this also


Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:34 PM]

PDPA is applicable to all gov agencies. Hence when one gov agency has your data, only that agency has access to that data. I worked in gov before.


G, [9/1/2025 3:35 PM]

Yes. They are private organisations


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 3:35 PM]

Oh just curious which gov  department you work in?


Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:35 PM]

Banks don’t use ic as authentication now. They usually send sms or use app to authenticate.


Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:36 PM]

Govtech


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 3:36 PM]

I see.

From science park to suntec to mapletree.


G, [9/1/2025 3:37 PM]

No. That act is not applicable to govt agencies. 

This is mentioned in para 1.7 of PDPC's advisory guidelines for NRIC numbers

"These Guidelines do not apply to the collection, use and disclosure of NRIC numbers (or copies of NRIC), and the retention of physical NRICs by a public agency or an organisation that is acting on behalf of a public agency. Public agencies in Singapore (including Government Ministries, Statutory Boards and Organs of State) are excluded from the Data Protection Provisions of the PDPA."

Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:39 PM]

In practice, it’s not easy for gov agencies to gain access from another agency. By default, no access.

G, [9/1/2025 3:39 PM]

This is different from saying that govt agencies need to comply with PDPA.. Especially when PDPA itself already excludes govt bodies

Hanny, [9/1/2025 3:41 PM]

My Singpass used to show single. But I am definitely married. I filled up many forms with gov and still Singpass show single. It took me a while to get this status changed.

RY, [9/1/2025 3:42 PM]

When go to the bank for some transactions, they still using physical NRIC as part of their verification purposes

G, [9/1/2025 3:42 PM]

footnote 3 for para 1.7:

The Data Protection Provisions are found in Parts III to VI of the PDPA. Section 4(1)(c) of the PDPA provides that Parts III to VI shall not impose any obligation on any public agency or organisation in the course of acting on behalf of a public agency in relation to the collection, use or disclosure of the personal data

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:44 PM]

I think certain gov agencies should adopt private practice of masking nric. Because I don't see there's a need for some agencies to have the nric

RY, [9/1/2025 3:45 PM]

Govt as own data privacy protection law known as "Public Section Governance Act" (PSGA) that they have to comply with - Refer to the Pdf file forwarded

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:46 PM]

For instance acra should not have taken full unmasked nric

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:47 PM]

As in public eyes it's like a private organisation with gov duties

RY, [9/1/2025 3:48 PM]

ACRA is not consider private orgn though

G, [9/1/2025 3:49 PM]

Link please?

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:49 PM]

I understand. But... You seldom heard this org until this incident happens

RY, [9/1/2025 3:50 PM]

https://www.smartnation.gov.sg/files/publications/government-personal-data-protection-policies-apr2020.pdf

RY, [9/1/2025 3:51 PM]

The link and the Pdf file

Jun Ming, [9/1/2025 3:51 PM]

So I feel that certain things that is not so sensitive should not use nric as identifiers

RY, [9/1/2025 3:54 PM]

If work in law or company secretary companies, they liaise closely with ACRA

RY, [9/1/2025 3:57 PM]

As individual, I do use ACRA to check any SG co entity

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 4:00 PM]

🔉 TOPIC 🔈

RY, [9/1/2025 4:02 PM]

I rem I went to the bank for some transactions last year, and I ask if I may use my digital IC 

The bank staff reply to me that some transactions still require the physical IC and not all transactions may use digital IC


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:05 PM]

Yes.

This is still the same practice.

They will still need to take photos of front and back of IC.


RY, [9/1/2025 4:06 PM]

Sometimes we need to check the authencity of any company existence in SG and if they still active/valid, as many fake (scam) companies nowsaday

Hence, ACRA is the best way to check


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:06 PM]

But using IC number as user id is no longer the practice in banks.

Last time some banks still do it.

Now no more.

IC number not safe as authenticator.


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:08 PM]

Banks like DBS issue very unique password to decrypt encrypted financial documents.

DBS don't used IC number as part of authentication.

But some local, offshore banks and financial institutions still use part of IC number to decrypt financial documents.

I am not going to list which financial institutions and banks do it for security reasons.

I still receive a couple of financial documents from such banks.


RY, [9/1/2025 4:09 PM]

Hospitals/Medisave deduction appln, all req hardcopy of IC  to submit


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:11 PM]

Yes.

This are still the practice.

So need a long runway to move such organisations out of IC number as authenticator.

Honestly, from IT perspective - IC number not safe.

Easily compromised.


RY, [9/1/2025 4:11 PM]

Recently I bring my family for Day Rehab svs

Bec obtaining govt subsidy, the private Healthcare orgn also hardcopy of patient IC

RY, [9/1/2025 4:13 PM]

Many orgn still using IC hardcopy and not all accepting digital IC 

And not all appln/Cpf deduction  are online also


LCL (Danny 心), [9/1/2025 4:14 PM]

Meanwhile still need to keep IC number mask intact and not widely distributed to the public.

Because the use of IC number still very pervasive.

No joke.


RY, [9/1/2025 4:15 PM]

All these orgn are non-govt, but they still require physical IC for the appln and etc

RY, [9/1/2025 4:18 PM]

If dont have/dont know how to use singpass, still require physical IC to go to CC to collect CDC vouchers

RY, [9/1/2025 4:19 PM]

Hence NRIC is a very important data we require to use for appln/collection/deduction and etc

RY, [9/1/2025 4:25 PM]

It is right to say that NRIC shd not be widely circulated, as we require NRIC for many purposes

As NRiC still use as verification/application/transaction and etc 

Although singpass help to digitalise some of the appln eg CDC eVoucher redemption, but not appln can be digitalised

RY, [9/1/2025 4:34 PM]

Recently I want to book my family for covid vaccine at GP, after the closure of JTVC 

I was told by the GP that must book appt using singpass online 

Wondering how those IT/english illiterate elderly/handicapped people can book for their covid vaccine at GP without singpass ?

Govt encourage vulnerable people to take covid vaccine

However they also make it "difficult" to take covid vaccine for this grp of people without singpass/illiterate/people with mobility problems 

My area polyclinics, all dont provide covid vaccine except GP clinics ......

G, [9/1/2025 5:22 PM]

So apparently metapneumovirus infection is listed as a side effect of Pfizer's covid jab

It's in

APPENDIX 1. LIST OF ADVERSE EVENTS OF SPECIAL INTEREST

From the document CUMULATIVE ANALYSIS OF POST-AUTHORIZATION ADVERSE EVENT REPORTS on Pfizer's covid jab 

https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 6:01 PM]

🔉 TOPIC 🔈

RY, [9/1/2025 6:40 PM]

SingPass is a very gd digital platform to access to govt/bank/others transaction/appln and etc

However, hope govt may also make things easier for those non-singpass users (illiterate/handicapped) also eg covid vaccine online booking appt 

As now I am unable to make any covid vaccine appt for my family (non-singpass user) at GP clinics

RY, [9/1/2025 6:41 PM]

Tks for the info, not taking pfizer

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [9/1/2025 7:03 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


====


Posted by at No comments:

Wednesday, January 8, 2025

REACH (Telegram) 50 - What are your views on Minister’s plans and aspirations for Singapore’s education system?

(SK)

08 Jan 2025 (10am - 7pm)


REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 11:13 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 11.15am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 11:16 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

Job seekers and employees will have greater protection against discrimination on grounds like age and nationality through a proposed law to ensure fairness in the workplace, Manpower Minister Dr Tan See Leng told Parliament on Jan 7.

At the same time, the Workplace Fairness Legislation (WFL) will retain the flexibility for employers to hire workers based on skills that support their business needs, he added.

💬 What are your thoughts on the Workplace Fairness Bill? Why more could be done to strengthen protection against workplace discrimination?

Dr Tan said that while Ministry of Manpower (MOM) surveys have shown declining workplace discrimination over the years, this should not be taken for granted. “This Workplace Fairness Bill has therefore been designed to improve protections against workplace discrimination, while preserving our fair and harmonious workplace norms.”

This is the first of two Bills on workplace fairness. A second Bill on how private employment claims can be made for workplace discrimination will be tabled later on. If passed, the legislation will be implemented sometime in 2026 or 2027.

MPs spoke in favour of a workplace anti-discrimination law and debated issues such as the scope of the bill, the need to tackle workplace ageism, how the bill puts local first and support for smaller firms to comply with the legislation.

📌 Why the bill does not cover all discrimination

For now, the Bill covers five categories of protected characteristics where there is “broad societal consensus”, said Dr Tan. Together, they account for more than 95 per cent of discrimination complaints received by the Tripartite Alliance for Fair and Progressive Employment Practices (TAFEP) and MOM, he said.

These include age and nationality – the top two causes of discrimination reported. A third category includes sex, marital status, pregnancy and caregiving responsibilities; the fourth covers the characteristics of race, religion and language ability; and the last encompasses disabilities and mental health conditions.

MP Ms Denise Phua called for the broadening of the definition of disability in the Bill, which now covers autism, intellectual disabilities, physical disabilities and sensory disabilities. This excludes individuals with learning disabilities like dyslexia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, and conditions like cerebral palsy and multiple sclerosis, she said.

MP Mr Louis Chua criticised the Bill for limiting legislation to only certain characteristics.

“How can we confidently say that workplace discrimination of any form should not be tolerated, but yet some forms of discrimination are legal while others are not?” he asked, highlighting some types of discrimination that will not be covered, such as that based on physical medical conditions. 

Mr Patrick Tay, who is the assistant secretary-general of the National Trades Union Congress (NTUC), said outsourced workers and freelancers, including platform workers, may be an underserved segment of workers.

Mr Tay said the labour movement believes that no form of discrimination should be tolerated in the workplace. Although sexual orientation and gender identity or expression are not explicitly covered, any employer who runs afoul of the Tripartite Guidelines on Fair Employment Practices (TGFEP) should be investigated and can have enforcement actions taken against them, he said.

📌 Concerns over economic impact of ageism

In the debate, Mr Heng Chee How, who is NTUC deputy secretary-general, also emphasised the economic importance of leveraging the experience of older workers amid a shrinking labour force.

He called for employers to be more vigilant against ageist bias and other barriers that might affect older job seekers and workers.

REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 11:16 AM]

📌 Putting locals first 

Foreigners are “critical complementary components” in many sectors of Singapore’s economy, and Workers’ Party (WP) chief and Leader of the Opposition Pritam Singh said the Bill correctly offers wide and significant protections to them, but is clear that employers should aim to recruit locals first.

Mr Singh said employers should not see this legislation as just an administrative process, or even as a burden. “It is far more important than that,” he said. “I would even go so far as to say that it is a critical piece of legislation with a view towards nation-building in the years to come, where many of our challenges will be domestic.”

📌 Help for small companies to comply

To help firms ease into the new requirements, small firms with fewer than 25 employees will be given more time to build up their capabilities before they need to comply with them. This will be reviewed five years after the law is implemented.

Dr Tan has said that MOM is working on a tripartite advisory for reasonable accommodations to raise awareness and provide practical guidance to employers.

He emphasised that workplace fairness legislation is not a “panacea”, but an “additional layer of protection” against frequently encountered forms of workplace discrimination. 

“It is a measured approach that seeks to preserve our current workplace norms, and guard against divisions in our workplaces and society,” he said.

👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/workplace-fairness-bill-legislation-platform-workers-4843371

👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/mps-raise-concerns-over-indirect-discrimination-ageism-during-debate-on-workplace-fairness-bill

----


REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 11:24 AM]

[ Poll : 1) Do you think the Workplace Fairness Bill adequately addresses workplace discrimination? Please share your reasons in the chats! ]

- Yes

- No

- Neutral

REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 11:24 AM]

[ Poll : 2) Which of the five categories of protected characteristics outlined in the Bill are you most concerned about? Please share your reasons in the chats! ]

- Age discrimination

- Nationality

- Sex, marital status, pregnancy and caregiving responsibilities

- Race, religion and language ability

- Disability and mental health conditions

G, [8/1/2025 11:33 AM]

Received hardcopy letter for CDC voucher..

In this day and age, is there still a need for hardcopy?

If the letters cost 51 cents to mail and there are 1.3 million average households claiming CDC; that’s $663,000 on postal costs alone

There's still costs for customisation for these letters with names and address, cost of printing, cost of paper, cost of envelopes etc.

Mailing hardcopy notifications for govt handouts still the best use of taxpayer money?

Don't the PA already have records on which households would more likely require hardcopy mail and so just send hardcopy mails to those households instead?

G, [8/1/2025 11:37 AM]

What's the govt's posture on hiring older workers?

I've heard numerous anecdotes of workers from a certain age group being rejected or glossed over for positions despite possessing the necessary qualifications and experience

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 11:37 AM]

On mental health, some people may be suffering from mental issues that are not visible or classified under DSM-5, how do the government ensure that healthy mental health in the workplace should be protected ?


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 11:43 AM]

1. Age discrimination for jobs is indeed an issue for those 50 years and above.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 11:48 AM]

2. Despite government persistent good effort to formulate policies to tackle age discrimination - it is still happening in various disguise forms that discriminate mature workers in getting jobs or terminate older workers from their jobs.


3. Or in a better place, older workers are make to take up contract job, demotion with lesser pay.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 11:54 AM]

3. Hence, I always encourage young workers to save half or at least 1/3 of their income monthly to safeguard themselves against mid career crisis and retirement by investing prudently in passive income the moment they start work.


4. This is to ensure that if mid career crisis hit, they will have at least passive income to tie them through their old age.


Gabriel, [8/1/2025 12:07 PM]

For those who are unfamiliar with the state of current affairs on this matter, can you highlight what the government's persistently "good" effort on policies to tackle age discrimination are?

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 12:08 PM]

There are still young people who cannot save at least 1/2 or 1/3 of their income after paying for daily necessities, then what can be done to help them ?

Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 12:10 PM]

But how would we determine if is a valid 'daily necessities'?

E.g. aircon might be critical for some, not for others. Or even cars

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 12:11 PM]

I am talking about necessary for survival, like shelter, food, public transport etc.

Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 12:11 PM]

I would suggest ways for them to help themselves. Reskilling or upgrade comes to my mind.

Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 12:12 PM]

As i said 'necessary' is not a common understanding for all.

Aircon compulsory?

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 12:13 PM]

I already said survival, as in if it is not present the person will not even be able to survive.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:13 PM]

Eg. Formulating policies such as tgfep - tripartite guidelines for fair employment.

Mom and union investigating and arbitrating any reported job discrimination grievances cases.


🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 12:15 PM]

“Necessary” may not be a common understanding, but it is a fact that humans cannot even survive without some basic necessities, it is not up to interpretation.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:17 PM]

1. Well during my time, my starting salary is $1,600, I can still set aside 1/3 the moment I received my pay and put into the saving account vouching not to touch them.


2. As I got increase salaries and promoted along the years, I can set aside half the salary for savings.


3. When sufficient amount is set aside, can start investing the passive income.


4. It all depends on the determination and will of each individual - what is deem necessary expenses and what is extravagant.


5. Once a person set aside the savings and vouch not to touch them, you will always try to spend within what you have - and won't indulge in extravagant stuff.


6. People must have the "crisis mindset" - always prepared for rainy days or crisis hit.


🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 12:17 PM]

Now the times is a different story, wages are not keeping up with inflation, despite what the statistics and numbers indicate.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:18 PM]

I have seen people doing it, and it can be done.


🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 12:20 PM]

But still poverty, income inequality is a structural and institutional thing, which means there will forever be people that are still disadvantaged unless we restructure whole of society.

Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 12:23 PM]

1 piece of bread ok for some, other people still hungry. What's 'necessary for survival '?

Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 12:23 PM]

Totally agree, it is dependent on what the worker is willing to sacrifice. Time, money, cigarettes, health etc


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:24 PM]

Eg. Of extravagant, every year go tour.

Eat must eat "atas food".

Travel take grabs or taxis or own cars instead of public transport.

Buy goods must buy designer goods.

At home turn on Aircon instead of high velocity fans.

Etc. (sedekit sedekit, lama lama banyak bukit).

If can cut down all these extravagant expenses and choose cheaper alternatives, sure can save alot and sufficient to accumulate passive income for mid career crisis and retirement.

Complemented by CPF Life.


Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 12:27 PM]

Back to the original topic, the current discrimination laws somewhat sufficient. But there are times where bias needs to exist?

Language requirement when most clients are malay speaking (business facilitation to close deals). Overweight workers as doctors (not having good impression to customers) etc


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:29 PM]

Why do I suggest this?

Because job discrimination against aged happens in smes, MNCs and even glcs.

I will not suggest civil service are doing it, but people do get move around - but not outright termination come 50 years and above.


G, [8/1/2025 12:35 PM]

Come I clap for you 👏 

For showcasing your personal achievements here


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:36 PM]

Better than always complaining and crying or blaming the government - instead of solving own problem.


G, [8/1/2025 12:36 PM]

Agree.. besides the usual nationality, age etc what's "discrimination" anyway?

Caleb, [8/1/2025 12:37 PM]

Can gov notify by singpass app.  If nv ready by 1 week then send hardcopy.

G, [8/1/2025 12:40 PM]

I remember your claim that on your 1 single income you could afford to pay off a 5 room HDB flat

So.. back then $1,600 very good ah?

Still claim you set aside 1/3.. means $1,100 can afford to live and pay off 5 room flat HDB mortgage?

Such was the cost of living back then! 

What's the equivalent of $1,600 today? Can that person still set aside 1/3 of the equivalent income afford a 5 room HDB flat and maintain a household living expense just on that 1 income?


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:41 PM]

Can!


G, [8/1/2025 12:41 PM]

Show the sums please

On the equivalent of $1,600 salary today.  Set aside 1/3 for savings. Afford 5 room HDB mortgage and household living expense. Use 1 income only


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:43 PM]

No need to show to you.

Because all my close circle younger folks already doing it.

You solve your own problem.

In the past, time and again compute to prove you wrong.

Shouldn't spoonfeed you anymore.


G, [8/1/2025 12:45 PM]

You go on a rant about self discipline etc. then boast about your own discipline and achievements..

And claim your close circle younger folks already doing it.. 

Then when ask for calcs to back up your claim, u shy away..

Then you tell people to be disciplined for what? Not everyone is as disciplined and as knowledgeable as you claim yourself to be 

So if you could show your calculations, wouldn't that be helpful for others to emulate your disciplined ways?


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 12:47 PM]

It does make a difference between a problem solver versus a complainer.

Problem solvers are resourceful to think out of the box to fix their own problem.

Complainers always complain and blame others, blame government.

Hence problem solvers usually do well in their careers and don't pose a problem to the society and don't always complain against the government.

Luckily all my close circles are problem solvers and not complainers.


G, [8/1/2025 12:49 PM]

Yes. You are a problem solver. 

You claim to solve something because you are disciplined

But when asked how, you say "you solve you own problems" and say other people complainers

Ok 👏

Your claims are doubtful at best

REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 1:11 PM]

Dear Contributors, 

Let’s be courteous to one another so that we can have a conducive discussion. 

It is everyone’s responsibility to make this online space a safe and conducive one for all contributors to share your views and feedback on national issues.

Please be reminded of the Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-telegram-terms 

Thank you. 

Megan


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:17 PM]

"Former manager becomes a hawker after getting retrenched, now selling S$2 laksa in Chinatown.

“I became a hawker after I gave up trying to look for a job. I thought I could withdraw my CPF at 55 [to live on], but I was only 50 when I got retrenched. No choice. I need money to survive,” said Bobby Lee."

 https://cnalifestyle.channelnewsasia.com/dining/asian-makanstall-chinatown-2-laksa-434226#:~:text=Former%20manager%20becomes,said%20Bobby%20Lee.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:18 PM]

An example of problem solver.

Retrench at 50 years old, turn crisis into opportunity.


Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:24 PM]

Tbh when you are working and upgrading yourself you hardly save 1/3 of salary

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:24 PM]

Need to be realistic

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:24 PM]

A short courses easily cost a few hundred


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:25 PM]

Can use skill future?


Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:25 PM]

And the short course may not be immediate useful or actually useful

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:26 PM]

For people age 25 above

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:26 PM]

People below 25, how to save 1/3

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:28 PM]

After grad does not equivalent you know how to apply the skills

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:29 PM]

Especially guys went through army which let them not have a chance to apply the skills for 2 years before entering industry


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:30 PM]

Give you an example, an average graduates starting salary is $5,500 for a computer science graduates.

20% CPF take home pay $4,400.

Set aside 1/3 = $1,466.

Still got $2,933 for expenses.

For fresh graduates, you stay with your parents, so more than enough to spend.


Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:30 PM]

That is average uni grads. For poly grads?

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:31 PM]

2k-2.5k?


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:31 PM]

A small family 4 person expenses $4,000 per month can survive relatively well.

One person $2,933 expenses can live very well.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:32 PM]

A bit tough.

But I will still set aside $800 as savings and spend the rest within my means.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:33 PM]

Remember you still got GST vouchers, CDC vouchers, u-save etc..


Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:33 PM]

When I search for work a poly grad is 1.8k-2.5k before cpf


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:34 PM]

Try to upgrade to university degree.

Pay is higher.


Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:34 PM]

So I would also want to upgrade myself,so attending courses will cost thousands


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:35 PM]

Try to get work experience while graduating from polytechnic.


Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 1:35 PM]

No money go private


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:35 PM]

For the time being, tighten the belt.

Once graduate, you can recover and do better.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:37 PM]

I have a younger folk that come under this path.

He is graduating from university this year and I believe he will be able to get a better pay.


Hanny, [8/1/2025 1:39 PM]

Certain group of people prefer hard copy

G, [8/1/2025 1:46 PM]

Yup. It should be this way.. and not spam everyone and waste taxpayer money.

Only give hardcopy to those who require. And PA should already have the relevant data for who requires hardcopy

Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 1:51 PM]

I don't think there is a common form across all agencies that states hard/soft copy preferences.

Then we need to decide default is hard or soft copy. Some would say aging population should default as hardcopy?


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:51 PM]

Eg. $800 saving per month, include 13 months bonus, you will get $10,400 a year set aside for passive income investment.

Take up a 25 to 30 years saving endowment insurance plan that provide 4% to 6% interest income (come with guarantee and non-guarantee portion).

You can earn up to $18,720 interest at the end of maturity.

So if you work from 25 years old to 50 years old, and invest likewise every year, you can earn 6 figures interest income.

Also your salary will increase and your passive income set aside for prudent investment will grow.

So your retirement will be safeguarded (not even including your CPF Life).


Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 1:52 PM]

Anyway, this hard or soft copy is not relevant to today's topic. I would say to bring it up another time

Daniel, [8/1/2025 1:52 PM]

This seems hardly relevant to the topic at hand.

Joomua Tng, [8/1/2025 1:55 PM]

this is an optimistic assumption and projection, mostly for above average income to higher income portion of population.

🍏, [8/1/2025 1:57 PM]

Forum: Get rid of smoking corners at coffee shops whose leases are expiring | The Straits Times

https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/forum/forum-get-rid-of-smoking-corners-at-coffee-shops-whose-leases-are-expiring


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 1:58 PM]

Agree that this will only apply to middle high to higher income folks.

But lower income folks will still struggle.


🍏, [8/1/2025 1:58 PM]

We should really get rid of cigarette smoking at coffee shops. It has been years since initially rolled out in 2017. And families do have to eat at coffee shops from time to time with children breathing in second hand smoke.

Kim Heok Lim, [8/1/2025 1:59 PM]

Non-smokers hate smokers. Smokers complain insufficient areas to smoke after paying tobacco taxes


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 2:00 PM]

Btw this is not a projection.

Because people do set aside savings for such purpose and do in fact reap the benefits from such approach - especially among some older folks.

I am just sharing such good practices so that more people can adopt such practices and don't get caught in their mid career crisis.

Because tech disruption and career disruption will happen more frequently - looking at the horizon of more uncertainties in a more adverse geopolitical climate.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 2:09 PM]

And job discrimination against aged does occur in various disguise forms.

Though government do put in safeguard and guidelines to curb such aged job discrimination - business will always have ways to circumvent it.

Hence for individuals to cushion themselves against such mid career crisis - individuals will need to plan for themselves and their families not to be caught when it comes - because I witnessed this quite a number of cases throughout my lifetimes.

As problem solvers, we need to plan ahead for such rainy days - and not to be caught by surprises which I feel will occur more often with greater challenges ahead.


🍏, [8/1/2025 2:12 PM]

Assumption. I am referring to cigarette smoking and inconsiderateness in exposing young children to second hand cigarettes smoke.

🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 2:20 PM]

Back to the topic, individuals may have the responsibility to try to safeguard themselves from any form of discrimination, but that does not change the reality that discrimination of many forms is a structural and institutional issue, so what plans does the government have to educate society on discrimination so that society can shift to reduce stigma and be more accepting of others ?

G, [8/1/2025 2:24 PM]

👍 govt also needs to explain their hiring practices. Why people of older age groups get rejected for jobs which they are adequately qualified for, and they have the relevant experience and expertise


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 2:26 PM]

1. Whether business continue to make profit - and not think of ways to cut cost to remain afloat or maximizing their profits as their core principle - sacrificing the higher pay older folks who stay loyal to the companies.


2. Whether bosses and top management has a good heart and good conscience - treating every workers including their older folks like a family members instead of workers.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 2:29 PM]

1. During the earlier years, bosses treat all their workers especially older workers like their family members that go through thick and thin with the companies.


2. But with modern western mindset - everything is profit versus cost - even very profitable companies will look at high cost workers to chop.

Older workers fit this bill, and often got chop to maximize their profits and show shareholders how well they perform every year.


Steven Ong, [8/1/2025 2:33 PM]

All kinds of discrimination should be considered and enforcement need to send strong signals to curb unhealthy practices. Everyone should be given equal opportunity in this day and age if he/she willing to learn and contribute to the organisation and society-at-large. Whisperblowing should be highly encouraged to ensure operations can be audited and enforcement can be executed.

G, [8/1/2025 2:36 PM]

Hooliganism amongst political parties. Male PAP member/supporter allegedly harassing female PSP volunteer

https://mothership.sg/2025/01/pap-psp-harassment-bukit-gombak/


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 2:40 PM]

1. So in my opinion, as long as human heart and mindset don't change, regardless of how much effort put in by government to curb job discrimination - business still have a way to circumvent it.


2. Changing the heart and mindset will be more effective than focusing on policies alone.

Because no amount of policies or legislation can monitor or change a business conduct, if people's minds and heart don't change. 

(阳奉阴违 will be the outcome.) (Disguise form of conforming, but hidden ways of discriminating acts to avoid penalty).


3. As long as profit maximization and KPI remain the core principle for top management or bosses - job discrimination cannot be eradicated.


4. It begins with the bosses and top management heart and mind.

（要重組，要转型 - 从“心”开始）.


G, [8/1/2025 2:50 PM]

“Thus far, we have not uncovered any known threat actors based on the IP addresses that were used to make the people search queries between Dec 9 and 13.”

"However, the authorities are unable to identify the exact number of NRIC numbers disclosed as the Bizfile portal is not configured to track individual queries, Ms Indranee said in a ministerial statement delivered in response to a spate of parliamentary questions over the recent saga."

"The minister also noted that a security feature designed to distinguish between human users and computer bots in the portal’s search function “was not working as intended”, following a security review by ACRA and GovTech."

"More than 500,000 searches were made on a government business filing website over five days in December after news emerged that people's names and full National Registration Identity Card (NRIC) numbers could be found.

This was much higher than the usual 2,000 to 3,000 daily queries made on the Accounting and Corporate Regulatory Authority’s (ACRA) Bizfile website, said Second Minister for Finance Indranee Rajah in parliament on Wednesday (Jan 8)."

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/more-500000-searches-acra-bizfile-portal-dec-9-13-nric-indranee-4844871


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 2:50 PM]

1. Having say so, I am not suggesting compromising profit of companies and focus on charity even though older workers are not performing.


2. I am saying older workers could cost more but still productive and contributing very well to the companies.


3. Effort should be make by bosses and top management on how to make use of older workers knowledge and skillsets and a good mix with younger workers to grow the business and make higher profit for the companies.


3. Instead of focusing on the age of the workers in every yearly appraisal exercise to chop higher pay older workers.


4. A company that look after their workers like a family members instead of a dispensable pawn - will instill high morale and motivated workforce that can bring greater height to the companies.


5. This is the philosophy that I learn from my earlier elderly folks who are bosses and my relatives who are running listed companies.


6. Unfortunately, I see less of such philosophy in current corporate with western mindset of hire and fire, profit maximization at all cost.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 3:01 PM]

7. And companies that adopt the mindset of treating every of their workers including older workers as a family members still make very good profit and business are expanding and growing very well - due to a group of highly motivated and loyal workers. And these corporates are paying good dividends year after year to shareholders.


8. They are not losing out to corporates that adopt hire and fire, profit maximization, age discrimination against workers.


9. In fact I observed workers in these companies are happier workers, conduct themselves in a more friendly and cooperative work environment and are less likely to engage in toxic office politics for survival.


Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 3:03 PM]

I not totally agree with keeping older/senior workers at all cost. What would be the career progression for staff that join later, e.g. younger or change companies.

There's only a set number of manager positions, and company budget. Should the junior staff be asked to wait and sacrificed?

Instead of 'discrimination', base compensation and promotion on performance. I would say usually those who are sick or slower at work would negative impact their work performance.

Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 3:04 PM]

An extreme case of keeping senior staff at all costs would be past japan economy, whereby junior staff wages are depressed because they cannot retrench senior staff

Khai Mun L., [8/1/2025 3:06 PM]

On other hand, another extreme would be china's 'forced' retirement when reach 55. Company would be encouraged to let senior staff go at that age.

Loss of good and experienced employees there


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 3:06 PM]

Older workers will still have to produce good performance.

Same as younger workers.

But age should not be the determination for discrimination.

If older and younger workers cannot perform, they will get poor appraisal and if cannot improve, they cannot stay.

But what happens if older workers perform consistently well, but slated to get terminated because of his age?

The justification is, I can hire 2 to 3 young workers with your pay.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 3:07 PM]

Eg. A mature worker win 2 awards for good performance.

Next year when he reached 55 years old, he was terminated.

How to account for such termination other than age discrimination?


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 3:17 PM]

There are creative ways to let younger workers move up and still keep good and experience older workers.

Eg. Promote younger workers to become managers.

Transform mature workers to be consultants, or mentors or advisors.

Or assign to handle ad-hoc projects that come on board.

See problem solvers can solve seemingly unsolvable issues.

Younger managers can bring new mindsets to management.

Older experience workers will still be able to keep a steady pair of hands to the business operations and can solve difficult business problems with their experience.


REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 3:23 PM]

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/acra-bizfile-nric-numbers-unmasked-josephine-teo-mddi-4844761


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 3:31 PM]

1. That's, younger workers can move up vertically, promoted to manager and take over the roles of older managers.


2. Older managers can move horizontally, doing the work of mentors, consultants, advisors, or handling ad-hoc projects.


3. Thinking aloud, young CEO can focus on transforming eg. A co-op into a full fledged corporate through merger or organic growth through new management.


4. Older managers can move horizontally to run a carve out segments (eg. A SBU) to continue to run as co-op.


5. This will vertically and horizontally grow a company rather than chop the old management and replace a new one with total different mindset (and throw out a viable existing co-op business that is still profitable run by the older managers).

For example


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 3:34 PM]

The synergy of this hybrid young + old management is

1 + 1 = 3.


REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 4:18 PM]

📢 Topic 📢


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 4:51 PM]

良心企业。(Corporate with conscience).

人情味。(Human touch).

Where got job discrimination?


REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 5:33 PM]

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/review-of-nric-unmasking-incident-likely-completed-in-feb-2025-findings-to-be-made-public


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 6:21 PM]

Skills atrophy, obsolescence likely behind decline in literacy proficiency among older adults in Singapore: Chan Chun Sing - CNA.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/adult-literacy-decline-older-singapore-adults-oecd-new-skills-education-4844781

It is necessary to continuously upskill and reskill throughout life, beyond the first 15 years of formal education, says Education Minister Chan Chun Sing. 


🌹 𝐘𝐞𝐰 𝐇𝐰𝐞𝐞 𝐎𝐧𝐠, [8/1/2025 6:24 PM]

I am not against old people, but in SG, generally the mindset of old people are that I am older thus I am more experienced in life, so why should I listen to the younger ones, which make them demand respect and become a bit closed-minded and not as willing to learn new skills to train their brain and keep their minds healthy etc.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 6:26 PM]

This one need to harmonize the younger ones and the older ones.

This is the most widely cited issue on young people working with older people.

Harmonizing both viewpoints are required with good listening skills.

Keeping an open mind is important.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 6:29 PM]

Most important, focus on the issues and not the person.

1. Listen to the viewpoints express by both group of people.

2. Analyse whether the viewpoints can solve work problems.

3. Then adopt the views to solve work problems regardless of whether it come from older or younger workers to get the job done.

4. These apply to all types of workers whether young or old.

5. Hence there will be more harmonizing and less frictions.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 6:38 PM]

A bit surprise by the OECD's report that English literacy skills can degrade with age.


1. I thought I can accept - as a worker enter the job market, technologies advance will cause older workers to be less relevance in new tech and hence tech obsolescence can set in.

Hence skill upgrade and reskill become necessary to remain relevant.


2. But English literacy degradation come as a surprise to me - because I thought many years of communication at work in English and report writing - should make older workers English literacy better due to constant practice.

But causing older worker to degrade in English literacy come as a surprise to me as it defy logic.

I thought it doesn't make sense.


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 6:44 PM]

All the more, OECD make up of many non-English speaking countries like Japan, South Korea, Germany, Italy, France etc.

How does Singapore that uses English language as its working language be worst off than some non-English speaking countries?

I can understand if OECD countries like UK, US, Australia Canada, New Zealand can have higher English literacy than Singapore.

But not those non-English speaking countries.


Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 6:44 PM]

Not really. In workplace especially in lower management people tend to use broken English and mother tongue

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 6:45 PM]

In army this is a very good example

REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 6:46 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 6:46 PM]

Oh is it?

Maybe those white collar workers use more proficient english than Singlish.


Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 6:47 PM]

Yeah. But very small portion are actually the true white collar

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 6:49 PM]

If the company have hired a lot of china workers people tend to use Chinese to communicate. If your profession is a doctor you don't expect to speak high level of English to your patients. If not they don't understand.

Jun Ming, [8/1/2025 6:50 PM]

Unless your profession requires you to speak standard english such as lawyer


LCL (Danny 心), [8/1/2025 6:51 PM]

Depends on industries than.


RY, [8/1/2025 6:55 PM]

For age discrimination, I think our govt sector shd be leading as the model - in my opinion

RY, [8/1/2025 6:57 PM]

It is quite certain that there is age discrimination in workplace

As the HR will vet thru the resume most time and look at the age 1st in any job appln

REACH Singapore, [8/1/2025 6:59 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊


====


Posted by at No comments:
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)