REACH (Telegram) 7 -  What are your thoughts on the latest statement and response to the Income-Allianz partnership by NTUC Enterprise? Are you now sufficiently assured that this initiative will strengthen Income’s original social values and mission to provide coverage for lower-income groups?

(SK)

31 Jul 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 9:45 AM]

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REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 10:00 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

On 30 Jul (Tuesday), NTUC Enterprise said that a stronger Income Insurance would be more competitive to offer better prices to consumers. It said that, the social enterprise model alone ‘cannot shoulder’ growth in Singapore’s competitive insurance environment, and that partnership with Allianz will strengthen the future competitiveness of Income Insurance, while upholding its social objective of doing good. 

The statement comes after members of the public and experts raised concerns about Allianz's plan to buy a majority stake in Income Insurance last week.

💬 What are your thoughts on the latest statement and response to the Income-Allianz partnership by NTUC Enterprise? Are you now sufficiently assured that this initiative will strengthen Income’s original social values and mission to provide coverage for lower-income groups?

📌  Strengthening future competitiveness of Income Insurance

NTUC Enterprise said that "strong and continuous capital support and resilience" are needed for growth. And the proposed deal with Allianz would allow Income Insurance to tap the global company's expertise in asset management and technology and product development. 

"This will strengthen the future competitiveness of Income Insurance vis-a-vis the global and regional insurers operating in a highly competitive and open Singapore market”.

📌  Maintaining social objective of doing good

NTUC Enterprise (NE) chairman Lim Boon Heng said that, the company remained committed to protecting families financially against key risks in life.

He said the co-operative model is no longer effective given Income's competitive ambition and growth plans, but NTUC Enterprise will remain a substantial shareholder to provide direction towards the social outcomes, in line with the principle of doing good and doing well.

NTUC Enterprise said Allianz and Income Insurance share common values and an ambition to grow and serve Singapore. It is convinced that the deal is in the best interests of policyholders and shareholders.

📌  Insurance pricing and coverage

Mr Lim said Income will still join key national insurance programmes even if it were to lose those bids, as its participation will provide a good benchmark on price and coverage.

But some factors like consumption of healthcare treatment, as well as external factors such as geopolitics and climate change are out of the insurer’s control.

👉 https://str.sg/xVzR

👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/income-insurance-allianz-ntuc-enterprise-social-enterprise-business-model-4513556

----

G, [31/7/2024 10:41 AM]

"Given Income's competitive ambition and growth plans" 

So, Lim Boon Heng has let out the real reason. NTUC Income has lost its mission and unique value to Singapore and Singaporeans. 

And given Income's history of being an alternative for medical doctors indemnity insurance, won't this sale result in higher healthcare costs in SG?

https://hobbitsma.blog/2024/07/28/incomes-outcome-is-likely-to-be-worrisome/

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 11:01 AM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you sufficiently assured by NTUC Enterprise’s latest statement? ]

- Yes

- No

G, [31/7/2024 11:01 AM]

Income went from cooperative to corporate entity a few years back

And this was the reply from tharman:

https://www.mas.gov.sg/news/parliamentary-replies/2022/reply-to-parliamentary-question-on-impact-of-ntuc-income-corporatisation-on-affordability-and-access

The fact that NTUC enterprise has to sell the controlling stake to a foreign entity so soon after corporatisation just goes to show leadership failure in ntuc income and enterprise

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 11:04 AM]

[ Poll : 2. I believe the Income-Allianz partnership is a good initiative that will continue to prioritise the interests of Singaporeans.

 ]

- Agree

- Neutral

- Disagree

G, [31/7/2024 11:04 AM]

NTUC leadership's word and actions don't gel. If they really are for Singaporeans, then the statement should always put Singapore and Singaporeans as the first and main point, not some afterthought

G, [31/7/2024 11:31 AM]

NTUC ought to be ashamed at moving away from it's social mission and the core impetus on why it was set up in the first place. 

Sheng Siong has done more for the social cause in SG than NTUC in recent times

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 11:56 AM]

290. I post in REACH (Telegram) LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 3:55 PM] :-

4. Conversely, NTUC Income start off as a Cooperative to perform social services and mission..

But due to the nature of Cooperative - its structure restrict NTUC Income ability to grow, make profits - to benefits policyholders, shareholders and the Government - as it cannot raise liquidity easily due to its cooperative business structure (whereby Insurance business is capital intensive). Also it cannot achieve size advantage, go overseas to expand its business and achieve Economies of Scale.

Hence, we can see NTUC Income market share is a meagre 10% for a decade - without the means to growth.

Imagine, NTUC Income can only conduct its business domestically, and can only capture 10% of domestic market - it means its other insurance competitors (many are foreign global insurance conglomerates) have captured 90% of the domestic insurance market --- keeping NTUC Income viable and not closing shop - is already a miracle.

If nothing is done now, all the goodies health plan, saving plans offer by NTUC Income - can one day go down and close shop.

Now NTUC Income asset values are still healthy - merging at such high points will lock in a high values for NTUC Enterprise - as Allianz are willing to pay a hefty $2.2 billion for the shares - a good bargain for NTUC Enterprise.

I believe, NTUC Income will soon able to offer good health plans and saving plans not only to Singapore but also many countries market - with a low cost base as all our plans have already been cost in when planning for Singapore market - the upside revenue base will be very high for NTUC Income if we merge with Allianz.

CNA News 30 Jul 2024 05:00PM (Updated: 30 Jul 2024 05:55PM)

A social enterprise model alone "cannot shoulder" growth in Singapore's competitive insurance environment, NTUC Enterprise said in a statement on Tuesday (Jul 30). 

More than 40 global, regional and local insurers are fighting for growth in Singapore, said the majority shareholder in Income Insurance, which received an offer from German insurer Allianz for 51 per cent of its shares.

"Despite putting in very competitive bids, Income Insurance lost out on several key contracts to its global and regional competitors, such as in bancassurance, the Dependants' Protection Scheme and group insurance for a large public organisation," said NTUC Enterprise, which currently holds 72.8 per cent of Income Insurance's shares.

This proves that "strong and continuous capital support and resilience" are needed for growth, it added.

And the proposed deal with Allianz would allow Income Insurance to tap the global company's expertise in asset management and technology and product development, the statement said.

"This will strengthen the future competitiveness of Income Insurance vis-a-vis the global and regional insurers operating in a highly competitive and open Singapore market," said NTUC Enterprise.

He said the co-operative model is no long effective given Income's competitive ambition and growth plans, but NTUC Enterprise will remain a substantial shareholder to provide direction towards the social outcomes, in line with the principle of doing good and doing well.

Social enterprises and co-operatives are no longer unique in doing good - more businesses are embracing stakeholder capitalism in their corporate purposes, said Mr Lim. 

"Going forward, NTUC Enterprise intends for Income Insurance to continue to be an important financially sustainable and socially responsible business, in line with its enduring purpose of empowering financial well-being for all," he said.

Income Insurance needed not just a financial investor, but an experienced global player who can help it thrive, NTUC Enterprise said.

The combination of Income Insurance's strengths and Allianz's global capabilities can create a "highly competitive composite insurer", the statement reiterated.

"These capabilities and expertise have convinced NTUC Enterprise to cede a majority stake to Allianz."

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 12:03 PM]

[ Poll : 3. What are some of the concerns that you may still have about the Income-Allianz partnership? 

 ]

- Lack of public consultation for decision-making

- Losing homegrown enterprises to foreign companies 

- Repricing of premiums 

- Nil, as I am now assured after reading the latest statement.

- Others (please share your views in the chats below)

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 12:04 PM]

1. NTUC Income must be financially strong in the face of about 40 global & local insurance companies competing - to be able to successfully bid for insurance contracts and benefits Singaporeans.

2. If no economies of scale, NTUC Income despite putting competitive bids - are unable to win insurance tender.

3. Hence NTUC Income has always been languishing in 10% of the market share in domestic market for a decade.

4. It is a miracle that NTUC Income is still surviving.

5. In other words, global insurance companies are able to put in lower premiums for Singaporeans than Income because of Economies of scale.

6. Hence I support Income-Allianz partnership - hopefully through Economies of scale - NTUC income can capture more tender with competitive bids and benefits Singaporeans.

7. Also hopefully, NTUC Income can ride on Allianz global Market to penetrate foreign markets.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 12:20 PM]

1. Through partnerships with Allianz, NTUC Income will be able to leverage on Allianz:-

a. Financial muscle 

b. Economies of scale 

c. Technologies 

d. Global foreign markets 

2. In so doing, NTUC Income cost can be lowered as a sunken cost to produce a product can be sold to not only Singapore market but also many overseas markets with the same cost base - hence achieving Economies of scale.

3. Hence, NTUC Income must get its market, economic and financial fundamental right.

4. The merger with Allianz tick all these boxes - and the trajectory for NTUC Income to do well in the future is very bright - and I believe NTUC Income can break out of its meagre 10% market share domestically, and will also gain footholds in other foreign markets - hence increasing NTUC Income revenue base and profitability.

5. I am more confident with NTUC Income - Allianz merger future as a policyholder.

And I am certainly looking forward to NTUC Income offering more competitive insurance products in the near future.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 12:33 PM]

1. Comparing DBS market share with NTUC Income.

2. DBS has a dominant consumer banking franchise in Singapore, and a strong consumer position in Hong Kong, Asia’s two most developed and bestregulated markets. In Singapore, through the acquisition of POSBank, DBS has about 60% market share in savings deposits and more than four million customers, over 90% of Singapore’s population.

3. DBS can do well domestically in Singapore and in fact has break into regional markets building itself up to about $743.4 billion assets values.

4. NTUC Income on the other hand only able to corner Singapore insurance market for 10% for a decade, $41.9 billion assets values as oppose to DBS 60% to 90% and not able to venture into foreign markets.

NTUC Income is 17 to 18 times smaller than DBS in assets values.

A miracle that NTUC Income still surviving.

5. DBS has presence in :-

Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, India, China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Australia, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom.

6. NTUC Income market -  Singapore only - a miserable 10% market share only.

7. Now with merger with Allianz - expecting NTUC Income to be able to penetrate foreign markets and commence its journey of global presence.

G, [31/7/2024 12:41 PM]

😂 how naive to think NTUC will become what you dream it to be. Why should the bigger one with the controlling share spend resources to market the smaller NTUC? 

The Allianz brand name as you rightly pointed out has a global presence. 

What's the incentive for Allianz to spend their own resources to grow NTUC to a global brand to benefit Singapore and Singaporeans?

This part is still as clear as mud. Allianz clearly is a for profit organisation with a controlling stake in a home grown company. They also have a recent history of financial fraud

 https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/allianz-pay-6-bln-over-structured-alpha-fraud-fund-manager-charged-2022-05-17/

And to dream like what you did, and using your imaginations to justify selling off national assets to a foreign organisation with a track record of fraud and still claim to be pro-Singapore.. that pro-Singapore claim is very questionable.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 12:59 PM]

1. NTUC income as a co-operative, and a domestic company that can only operate in Singapore market is like 2 hands tie behind the back and enter into a boxing ring - to fight world boxers.

2. Cooperative is very restrictive, unable to raise capital like other corporate, confine to social objectives but yet got to take on global corporates without such restrictions - withe strong financial muscle, competitive market discipline and corporate structure with economies of scale to take on NTUC Income in tender bidding - of course NTUC Income will get hammer left, right and center until 黑眼睛。

3. Corporatising NTUC Income in 2022 only free up 1 hand - but still get hamtam by the global insurance competitors - how a $41.9 billions company beat the global $1 trillion companies with economies of scale?

4. Only through partnership with Allianz can free NTUC Income both hands - to get into the boxing ring with a fair fight.

As all NTUC Income disadvantage will be neutralized.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 1:08 PM]

1. Correction - NTUC Income has some overseas presence selling insurance products through other insurance companies from Malaysia, Cambodia, Myanmar, Indonesia, Vietnam after corporatisation.

2. But revenue not indicated, expected to be relatively small.

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 1:12 PM]

[ Poll : 1. Are you sufficiently assured by NTUC Enterprise’s latest statement? ]

- Yes

- No

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 1:12 PM]

[ Poll : 2. I believe the Income-Allianz partnership is a good initiative that will continue to prioritise the interests of Singaporeans. ]

- Agree

- Neutral

- Disagree

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 1:13 PM]

[ Poll : 3. What are some of the concerns that you may still have about the Income-Allianz partnership?  ]

- Lack of public consultation for decision-making

- Losing homegrown enterprises to foreign companies 

- Repricing of premiums 

- Nil, as I am now assured after reading the latest statement

- Others (please share your views in the chats below)

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 1:22 PM]

Allianz credentials:-

Car Insurance you can trust

For car insurance, Defaqto has given our Allianz cover level 5 stars – their highest rating. We're rated Excellent on Trustpilot - 4.5 stars out of 5! Thanks to our customers. We were voted 'best motor insurance provider' at the Insurance choice awards 2023.

On June 20, 2024, S&P Global Ratings affirmed its 'AA/A-1+' long- and short-term issuer credit ratings and 'AA' financial strength rating on global multiline insurer Allianz and its core subsidiaries. Our outlook on the rating remains stable.20 Jun 2024.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 1:23 PM]

In 2021, it was the fourth largest insurance company worldwide by revenue. In terms of total assets, Allianz was ranked second globally in 2023, with an asset value surpassing one trillion U.S. dollars. Allianz also proved to be sixth most valuable German brand in 2022, with a brand value over 40 billion euros.10 Jan 2024

CK Lee, [31/7/2024 1:39 PM]

Is there sufficient assurance about strengthening Income's original social values and mission to provide coverage for lower-income groups? 

- I have yet to see any specific details on how lower-income groups will be protected or prioritized under the new structure. 

- will there be more profit-driven initiatives or new targets for  social concerns & well being?? 

- what are the long-term implications of having a majority foreign stakeholder on Income's social mission? Foreign is still “foreign”. 

- the truth is eventually we have to rough it out through “testing” of these assurances in any form of Income's actions and policies after the partnership is established. So we have to wait and see.

G, [31/7/2024 1:46 PM]

😂 you just described the situation where it's so conducive for a big fish eat small fish scenario.

And the proposed deal of Allianz owning the controlling stake of NTUC Income shows it. National assets being eaten.

Yes, NTUC income as a cooperative does have structural limitations. And the leadership saw fit to restructure into a corporate entity. To then sell the controlling stake to a foreign organisation just 2 years after going corporate is evidence of gross leadership incompetence 

Where and what then is the basis for the optimism that NTUC can grow to support Singaporeans better? 

Blind optimism and misplaced trust is the main driver behind virtually all scams. And the scammers love to whisper sweet promises to make the scam appear sweet

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 1:48 PM]

Agree.

This are logical concern after taking economical, financial and market fundamentals into account.

Hopefully, these will be address.

G, [31/7/2024 1:53 PM]

They better be addressed before and deal is even considered and not some post economic academic rant afterthought.

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 2:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 2:03 PM]

They haven't addresse why 51% not 49%

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 2:11 PM]

Having say so, economically, financially - NTUC Income must be able to be viable first.

Without this assurance, whatever social missions, objectives and services cannot be materialised.

Because if NTUC Income cannot compete and close shop, how to fulfill its social missions, objectives and services?

This is something very basic, very fundamental.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 2:15 PM]

Having say so, raising those concerns about social missions and objectives to our local Singaporeans for an answer is the next logical step -

With NTUC Income viability and survivability fully address, out of the picture and not threatening its survival.

G, [31/7/2024 2:20 PM]

Deals like this don't happen overnight. Typically takes at least a year of careful study and deliberations. 

Given that this deal happened just 2 years after NTUC was corporatised heavily suggests either gross leadership incompetence or there was already a desire to sell out national assets when NTUC income was still a cooperative. Going corporate was just an intermediate step

G, [31/7/2024 2:22 PM]

😂 putting the cart before the horse

G, [31/7/2024 2:30 PM]

Still not able to see how baseless wild imaginations and empty promises assurances are still being used to justify selling off controlling stake of national assets (and indirectly, SG sovereignty) to foreign for-profit entities with track records of financial fraud, is in the best interest of Singapore and Singaporeans.

And to sweeten the deal, the chairman also not so clean

https://theindependent.sg/who-was-the-acting-chairman-then-singaporeans-demand-full-transparency-despite-assurances-that-income-chair-recused-himself-over-conflict-of-interest-concerns/

On paper can recuse. But is it the same in practice? No one will really  know.

CK Lee, [31/7/2024 2:59 PM]

Tommy Koh 'not convinced' by NTUC Enterprise's explanation

https://mustsharenews.com/tommy-koh-not-convinced/

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 3:00 PM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls and share your opinion. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 3:10 PM]

Tommy Koh is 感性， 不理性。

Emotional not Rational.

That's populist first, before pragmatic.

To run an organisation successfully, a CEO got to put :-

Pragmatism first before emotion.

John Yong, [31/7/2024 3:15 PM]

What are your thoughts on the latest statement and response to the Income-Allianz partnership by NTUC Enterprise? 

IMHO, this is a necessary step, given that the landscape has changed. 

1. Development of the local insurance market has led to a large number of regional and global entrants.

2. These players have shown that they are able to provide products which are competitively priced and which meet customer needs. (The fact that Income has around 10% market share speaks to that.)

3. That being said, Income still plays an important role as Mr Lim mentioned, in bidding as needed, to provide a source of independent price discovery.

For example, we cannot expect everything in NTUC Fairprice to be the cheapest in Singapore, and it would not make sense to. That being said, just by having Fairprice around, provides an important price-control and competition and check to other players.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 3:16 PM]

Tommy Koh track record is in public service throughout all his career and have never manage and run a business.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 3:17 PM]

Tommy Koh is Ambassador-At-Large at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and Chairman of the Institute of Policy Studies and the National Heritage Board. He was formerly Dean of the Law Faculty at NUS. He had served as Singapore’s Permanent Representative to the UN in New York and Ambassador to the United States of America, Canada and Mexico. He was also the President of the Third UN Conference on the Law of the Sea and chaired the Earth Summit. He was the founding Chairman of the National Arts Council and the founding Executive Director of the Asia-Europe Foundation. He had served as the UN Secretary-General’s Special Envoy to Russia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. He was also Singapore’s Chief Negotiator for the USA-Singapore Free Trade Agreement. He has chaired two dispute panels for the WTO.

G, [31/7/2024 3:29 PM]

This comment totally underscores Tommy Koh's warnings and it appears you only cherry picked this portion of tommy Koh's remarks to say emotional, not rational.

"Ending his post on a more emotional note, Prof Koh lamented the situation faced by the younger generation. He said:

I feel sad that for many younger Singaporeans nothing is sacred and everything is for sale.

He also urged people to remember the words of Singapore’s first Foreign Affairs Minister, S. Rajaratnam.

“He warned us not to become a nation of people who know the price of everything but the value of nothing,” he said."

Because tommy koh cited concrete evidence of NTUC Income's value to Singapore and Singaporeans, that foreign for-profit entities will not bring to the table 

https://mustsharenews.com/tommy-koh-not-convinced/

G, [31/7/2024 3:32 PM]

Tommy Koh's views represent something larger and wider, and not narrowly focused on the academic economics profit and loss arguments.

And has used a large part of his life representing Singapore on the world stage. He would know a thing or 2 about sovereignty.

To dismiss his views as emotional not rational, even labeling as populist..

And still call yourself pro-Singapore.. 😂

John Yong, [31/7/2024 3:47 PM]

Are you now sufficiently assured that this initiative will strengthen Income’s original social values and mission to provide coverage for lower-income groups?

To me, how Income continues to serve its social values and mission - is by being around. If Income is not commercially viable, it will be gone in a matter of time, and the people of Singapore will be the poorer for it. Thus, I believe this step to ensure that continued survival and competitiveness of Income is the right step to take. 

The whole purpose of Income is, to me, to:

1. Serve the underserved segments of Singapore. Meaning to a. innovate in terms of products eg to provide coverage for rare childhood diseases, eg to provide coverage for gig and delivery workers, etc - at a reasonable and viable cost. 

2. Provide a price/ quality control - eg by bidding for say Integrated Shield Plans, coverage for NS men and other national insurance initiatives and also to continually improve on existing product coverage and innovation. 

3. Providing financial and insurance outreach and education for the less informed and younger among us. 

4. Providing whole life, endowment and other products to aid in the financing objectives and retirement of people in Singapore. 

The whole idea is that for those who need and want coverage in Singapore, they have access to it, at a good quality and price. And perhaps in a 'no-frills' way, which Income is known for. But just like no one can be forced to prioritise purchasing food for the family over (say) spending on cigarettes or gambling, no one can be 'forced' to buy insurance, however needed it may be. The idea is to make it available, so as to achieve the best outcome for the people of Singapore. 🙏

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 3:48 PM]

Very sensible and logical view points.

I am just waiting for you to type out your comments.

John Yong, [31/7/2024 3:50 PM]

🙏

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 3:52 PM]

In fact, I will respect Tommy Koh more if he has successfully run a sizeable billions dollar company before making his statement of high moral values based on sound economical and financial fundamentals.

What if NTUC Income follow what Tommy Koh say, and few years down the road, no longer viable and need to close shop?

Will Tommy Koh continue to fly his high moral grounding flag with a Singapore badge?

He probably will blame the CEO for not making a sound business decision.

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 4:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 4:04 PM]

When that happens, all our policyholders suffer collateral damages.

All our health insurance and saving plans will go down the drain.

Tommy Koh expect who to bail it out?

And NTUC Income will be forced to sell at a firesale price rather than the $2.2 billions high price to NTUC Enterprise.

Now NTUC Income upside and potential is very high despite holding 49% of the shares.

Its asset values can multiply many times given it a few years to grow its business.

Alex Chua, [31/7/2024 4:05 PM]

Looks like this group chat has been dominated by a person. 

Megan, what is objective of having this discussion group?

G, [31/7/2024 4:07 PM]

Another comment that exemplifies the warning of our country's founders. 

"... to remember the words of Singapore’s first Foreign Affairs Minister, S. Rajaratnam.

“He warned us not to become a nation of people who know the price of everything but the value of nothing,” he said...."

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 4:09 PM]

I believe no one will stop you from dominating the discussion if you have ideas or feedback to contribute.

It is an open forum.

Alex Chua, [31/7/2024 4:47 PM]

I do not wish to enter into an argument with anyone. 

My feedback is directed to the admin of the group and is not aiming at any member of the group.

It is for the owner of the group to decide whether he wants to hear ideas/views from as many people as possible, or to hear from only 1 or few persons that dominated the group discussion.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 4:54 PM]

Well, there is no limit or quota to any participants feedback. The platform allows it.

And no one should be intimidated by the number of views put across in the forum.

This is not a face to face focus group - whereby each participants are given a certain time to talk and then stop.

If a participant has more ideas to contribute, why stop it?

Cannot be a case whereby must wait for people to talk before a person can talk?

Most of the time, the forum is comm silence.

My previous chat group is better, no need prompting, there are more active participants chip in to talk.

ChewyRuza, [31/7/2024 4:56 PM]

I’m going to sound really ignorant here but I don’t really know what the partnership entails for us

Dr. Goh, [31/7/2024 4:57 PM]

Looking at how people in charge find excuses to sell out key institutions like Income I expect a price tag for every politician who doesn't put a stop to this deal. Which means the control of Singapore can be bought easily if the price is right.

It is clear from the article that Income will have a stake in CPF Life. Imagine your retirement dictated by foreign entities while the government claims it cannot control that, would you still trust your hard earned money in CPF?

Dr. Goh, [31/7/2024 4:59 PM]

Put a stop to this deal and any others that involve key assets of interest. Hyflux was "fixed" previously and prevented from selling itself to foreign entities so this is actually possible. We can assess the motivations of every politician by observing their actions.

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 5:04 PM]

Indeed a warning

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 5:19 PM]

Dear Contributors,

Please take a moment to participate in our polls and share your opinion. The poll questions are pinned for easy reference, and your vote is anonymous.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts on today’s topic!

Thank you.

Megan

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 5:40 PM]

CPF Life is a life annuity scheme provided by the Singapore government, and the underwriting insurance companies are:

1. *Great Eastern Life Assurance Co Ltd*

2. *NTUC Income Insurance Co-operative Ltd*

3. *Singapore Life Ltd* (formerly known as Aviva Singapore)

These three insurance companies are appointed by the Singapore government to provide the CPF Life scheme, which offers a guaranteed lifetime income to eligible CPF members.

CPF Life provides a monthly payout from age 65, and the payout amount depends on the member's CPF savings and the annuity plan chosen. The three underwriting insurance companies are responsible for managing the CPF Life funds and making the monthly payouts to policyholders.

Note that CPF Life is a government-backed scheme, and the Singapore government guarantees the payouts, so policyholders can have peace of mind knowing their retirement income is secure.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 5:41 PM]

Who is Singlife owned by?

HOME-GROWN Singlife will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Japanese life insurer Sumitomo Life Insurance. Sumitomo Life entered into a binding agreement to purchase all the 35 per cent shares in the Singaporean insurer held by TPG, which has been an investor since 2020, said Singlife on Friday (Dec 22).22 Dec 2023

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 5:47 PM]

CPF LIFE savings are also guaranteed by the Singapore Government, whereas private annuities are subject to investment market returns. 

In addition, as CPF LIFE is non-profit and administered by the CPF Board, it does not incur additional costs from advertising and agents’ commissions. 

Finally, having a large member base also means longevity risks and costs can be better spread out. 

All these factors allow CPF LIFE to provide more value on your monthly payouts and you can be more assured of a peaceful retirement.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 5:51 PM]

The next question to consider is why CPF LIFE instead of a private annuity plan. 

For starters, CPF LIFE can offer you payouts for life, in addition to being a safe product with risk-free returns. 

Even if a private annuity plan can provide payouts for life, it is not as secure as an annuity guaranteed by the Singapore government. 

Being non-profit and administered by the CPF Board, CPF LIFE also doesn’t incur any costs from advertising and agents’ commissions.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 5:55 PM]

Wonder whether can REACH bring back a couple of the few kakis from WhatsApp REACH group 2 to this Telegram group.

They will usually help to post all these information to help in the discussion to correct misconception.

Then I won't be the one being seen as "dominating" the forum.

Also less taxing for me.

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 6:01 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 6:02 PM]

Response from Meta AI:-

Yes, the CPF Board has implemented measures to "fence" the CPF Life payouts against private insurers, to ensure that the payouts are protected and guaranteed by the Singapore government. Here are some measures:

1. *Government guarantee*: The Singapore government guarantees the CPF Life payouts, ensuring that policyholders receive their monthly payouts for life, regardless of market performance.

2. *Ring-fencing*: The CPF Board has ring-fenced the CPF Life funds, separating them from the private insurers' own funds. This ensures that CPF Life payouts are not affected by the insurers' financial performance.

3. *Capital requirements*: Private insurers are required to hold additional capital to support the CPF Life business, providing an extra layer of protection for policyholders.

4. *Regulatory oversight*: The CPF Board and the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) closely monitor the private insurers' management of CPF Life funds, ensuring compliance with regulations and protection of policyholders' interests.

5. *Separate accounts*: Private insurers are required to maintain separate accounts for CPF Life funds, ensuring that these funds are kept distinct from their own assets and liabilities.

These measures ensure that CPF Life payouts are protected and guaranteed by the Singapore government, providing policyholders with peace of mind and financial security in their retirement.

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 6:46 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

G, [31/7/2024 6:52 PM]

@reachsg1 

Seriously.. is this group for humans to give feedback? 

Or for AI generated lectures?

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 6:53 PM]

Tbh I don't care about this topic does not really affect me anyway

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 6:53 PM]

You want to sell sell lor. It's pap asset what

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 6:54 PM]

Not my problem...

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 6:54 PM]

Quoting the source of information to lend credibility and acknowledgement is the right protocol in discussion and to acknowledge the source we get from.

So that it is not plagiarism.

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 6:55 PM]

If not happy just don't let pap be the majority

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 6:55 PM]

Discussion must be based on right facts.

Not misinformation.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 6:56 PM]

Even to the point of Singapore bankrupt?

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 6:56 PM]

So many public outlash still want to sell.

G, [31/7/2024 6:56 PM]

That's a valid point man. Perhaps many have forgotten it's become a political party's tool

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 6:57 PM]

As long I don't bankrupt can liao

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 6:57 PM]

LKY can withstand public outlash - as long as it is good for Singapore.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 6:57 PM]

Oh you mean Singapore can bankrupt.

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 6:57 PM]

I don't even know Singapore can survive for the next 30 years

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 6:59 PM]

That's why we need leaders with foresight and vision that are able to look beyond the superficial no matter how unpopular a policy is as long as it is for the long term good of Singapore.

LCL (Danny 心), [31/7/2024 6:59 PM]

Based on pragmatism not emotion.

Jun Ming, [31/7/2024 6:59 PM]

With politicial tension out there I pretty sure wwiii may happen within the next 50 years

REACH Singapore, [31/7/2024 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

===

REACH (Telegram) 6 -  What are your views on the Support Our Heartlands initiative? How can we continue to forge partnerships with stakeholders to ease cost of living pressures and support heartland businesses?

(SK)

29 Jul 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 10:04 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 10:10 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

Under the Support Our Heartlands initiative, the first 75,000 people who scan to pay with the PayLah! app every Saturday will be able to receive up to $3 cashback. They can do so at over 22,000 participating heartland shops, wet markets and hawker stalls.

💬 What are your views on the Support Our Heartlands initiative? How can we continue to forge partnerships with stakeholders to ease cost of living pressures and support heartland businesses?

The POSB initiative will run from 1 Aug to 31 Dec, and is an expansion of DBS' 5 Million Hawker Meals scheme, which ended on 26 Jul. 

📌 Supporting low-income seniors

The 5 Million Hawker Meals scheme has helped to subsidise about 8 million hawker meals, POSB added.

"Today, over 70 per cent of payments made via PayLah! scan to pay are on food and groceries from heartland shops and hawker stalls. Among those who have used PayLah! to redeem the hawker meal subsidies, 33 per cent were seniors and/or earning less than S$2,500 a month. Participating hawkers also saw their weekly earnings increase by more than 15 per cent”, POSB said in a statement.

📌 Supporting heartland businessmen

DBS Singapore country head Han Kwee Juan said: “With this new cashback and discounts package, we hope to help Singaporeans and residents save more on their everyday spending, while also encouraging patronage of heartland businesses that are the cornerstone of Singapore’s culture and heritage.

“By incentivising spending at local merchants, we aim to stimulate economic activity at the grassroots level, strengthen community support for small local businesses, and enhance the vitality of our neighbourhoods.”

📌 Partnering with people and private sectors

“The Government will continue to closely monitor the situation, and we will roll out additional programmes as and when necessary,” said Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Trade and Industry Gan Kim Yong, who added that the Government’s efforts alone are not enough.

He cited the example of working with DBS and POSB as a way to help residents cope with the cost of living issue. “As a society, we must come together – the Government, the people sector, as well as the private sector – to look out for one another,” he added.

👉 https://str.sg/jrsL

👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/dbs-paylah-app-3-cashback-hawker-heartland-wet-markets-sheng-siong-posb-4508671

----

G, [29/7/2024 10:21 AM]

More like a sales/marketing gimmick disguised as some CSR from DBS to move people away from paynow to their paylah platform

Hanny, [29/7/2024 10:23 AM]

Any help no matter how small matters. Hopefully more companies will contribute to this kind of effort.

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 10:34 AM]

Early bird gets the benefit

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 10:36 AM]

I still remember the good old days of 50cent off on Wednesday

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 10:37 AM]

Regardless of how many people redeem. I can still get the offer during lunch

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 11:20 AM]

Dear Contributors

We want to HEAR MORE from you! 

💬 What are your views on the Support Our Heartlands initiative? How can we continue to forge partnerships with stakeholders to ease cost of living pressures and support heartland businesses?

Megan 😊

G, [29/7/2024 11:31 AM]

Why is REACH, a govt platform, using this public feedback channel to solicit feedback for a private for profit organisation's marketing / sales / corporate social responsibility campaign?

G, [29/7/2024 11:46 AM]

Providing some history and context on NTUC Income and their hand in the little known side of medical professionals' insurance. 

Selling the controlling stake of NTUC Income to a foreign for-profit entity has an indirect but powerful negative impact on Singapore's long term health care costs. 

https://hobbitsma.blog/2024/07/28/incomes-outcome-is-likely-to-be-worrisome/

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 2:17 PM]

Dear Contributors

We want to HEAR MORE from you! 

💬 What are your views on the Support Our Heartlands initiative? How can we continue to forge partnerships with stakeholders to ease cost of living pressures and support heartland businesses?

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 2:17 PM]

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 2:34 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 2:49 PM]

1. Notice there will be few benefits arising from DBS initiative to offer the $3 cashback in Heartland food and groceries stall if using mWallet Paylah :-

a. Help to cushion inflation for heartlanders

b. Help more seniors and those not digitally incline - to go digital

c. Boost operational efficiency for stall owners with digial mWallet

d. Boost multiplier effects in the heartland business

e. Catalyst social initiatives for profitable Organisation that have done well to partake social services.

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 2:56 PM]

I wonder why other bank do not provide such benefits

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 2:59 PM]

I think UOB has done other social services like employing disabilities, seniors, internships to do backend jobs.

UOB quite philanthropic.

Not sure about OCBC.

No engagement with them.

But I guess OCBC also quite philanthropic if I am not wrong.

But can't quote example.

G, [29/7/2024 3:02 PM]

@reachsg1 

We want to hear from you too! 

Why is REACH Singapore Topic Poster, a govt platform, using this public feedback channel to solicit feedback for a private for profit organisation's marketing / sales / corporate social responsibility campaign?

How much is @reachsg1  being paid by DBS for this exercise? If not paid, then how is using tax dollars for the benefit of private for profit organisation's marketing/sales/corporate social responsibility campaign justifiable?

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 3:03 PM]

*a. Help to cushion inflation for heartlanders*

1. Despite MAS reporting the current inflation rate has gone down from 2.5% to 3.5% to 2% to 3% - quite a number of food stalls food prices in the neighborhood kopitiam, hawker centre and food courts are still relatively high. NTUC some groceries products also see increase in prices for fruits eg. $3.75 to $4.25 fuji apple, dragon fruit $3.25 for 2 instead of 3 etc.

2. Though news reported that in quite a number of hawker centres and coffeeshop has begin offering Budget Meal, I don't see a lot of budget meal in my neighbourhood - except one wang tung mian stall.

3. Hence, CDC vouchers and GST vouchers are really the saviour to help cushion the impact of eating out in the neighborhood stalls - as CDC vouchers can only buy from neighborhood food stalls and supermarkets.

4. This DBS paylah cashback has similar effects like CDC vouchers - and should be welcome - even though the impact is not as big as CDC vouchers.

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:03 PM]

Lai pre COVID waffles is 1.20 now almost everywhere 1.7-2.00

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 3:18 PM]

*b. Help more seniors and those not digitally incline - to go digital*

1. Getting seniors and non-digitally inclined population to go digital is a big challenge.

2. Eg. In China, seniors are so used to using money yuan - to buy goods and services --- and greatly strain the Central Bank to print money and redistribute to all the banks in China provinces and some rural areas.

The administration efforts are tremendous and highly costly.

Printing money which are perishable, are not green friendly and will be torn, unusable - and need to reprint --- very high cost --- and more taxpayers money needed to print, distribute money, keep in banks and manage them.

3. Hence mWallet, mobile wallets - become the most cost effective and cost efficient method - for buying goods and services, for trade.

4. But seniors and non-digitally savvyy citizens to learn how to use smartphones are a great challenge.

5. But with monetary benefits - like the mWallet DBS paylah to incentivise seniors with discount and cushion the cost of living, seniors will be motivated to learn how to use the smartphone and learn from digital ambassador station in CC to teach seniors how to use smartphone.

China seniors has overcome similar challenges and are now very smartphone savvy - better than our seniors here.

6. Government partnering our national bank DBS - with DBS offering cashback - is a good multiplier to boost seniors and undigitally savvy citizens to learn and use smartphones to use mWallet paylah to pay for their foods and groceries - to get the discount.

7. In addition, with seniors and undigitally savvy citizens getting more comfortable, they can also use smartphones to commmunicate via comm platform, see tik tok, youtube, surf net.

8. Hence the synergy and partnership between the Government and DBS to offer mWallet cashback - has fuel seniors and undigitally savvy citizens to pick up smartphone and become digitally savy - will boost our efficiency as a Nation and reduce cost of maintaining and using money cash for business and consumer transactions.

G, [29/7/2024 3:21 PM]

👍 it's the way inflation is reported by the govt. That's why what we experience on a day-to-day, feels different from what's reported

The following clips explains it succinctly:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8C4SwuSmOQ/

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 3:26 PM]

*c. Boost operational efficiency for stall owners with digial mWallet*

1. Once, I was queuing in a POSB to draw some cash, I notice a man in front is carrying a very heavy bag of coins (evidently he could be a food stall owner waiting to deposit a big bag of coin).

2. He was standing there more than 1/2 hour just to deposit the coins into the coin machine and can see that he is struggling.

This is not productive for him as he can spend more of his time tending to his stalls then wasting time queuing in the bank and depositing the coins.

Also the banks got to deploy staff to collect the coins, count them, deposit them and store in "warehouse"?

3. Hence, DBS partnering the Government to incentivise people, especially seniors and undigitally savvy people to use mWallet Paylah - will improve productivity for the food stall owners, banks and even people (who don't need to queue to draw cash to pay for foods and goods).

4. This will reduce food stall owners' cost, bank cost and save people time queueing in banks to draw and deposit cash - makeing our Economy more competitive and boost our quality of living - no need to grapple with physical cash and coins.

----

G, [29/7/2024 3:30 PM]

😂 forcing strongly encouraging people to go digital and minimising cash transactions just weakens Singapore because it weakens the robustness with which transactions can be made.

Merchants and customers will be at the mercy of servers and software. Like crowdstrike recently

And like the massive DBS outage in Oct last year

Cash is still very valuable in that it provides robustness to ensure transactions can still be made in times of outage and ensures Singapore stays more resilient

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:32 PM]

Yeah. When dbs is down people are just over reliant on paylah would not have other options to pay

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:32 PM]

Like I do not have any other bank other than dbs

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:33 PM]

So reach I think there's a need to consider not only DBS but other bank too

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:34 PM]

Or just support nets instead

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 3:34 PM]

*d. Boost multiplier effects in the heartland business*

1. Many people consumer habits has changed especially the younger ones.

2. They prefer to visit malls, food courts etc rather than visiting and buying foods and goods from neighborhoods kopitiam, supermarket, hawker centre and food stalls.

3. Hence, neighborhood business will be greatly impacted with the changing consumer habits.

4. CDC vouchers and now the mWallet Paylah Heartland initiatives that dictate those vouchers and discount can only use in the Heartland stalls and business - will trigger a multipler effects and circular flow of income within the Heartland economy - and will make the Heartland business viable and vibrant - that can serve the residents well especially seniors, vulnerable and the lower and middle income groups.

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:34 PM]

Since qr nets is usable for every Bank

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:34 PM]

Or make paylah an independent wallet not affiliate to any banks

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:35 PM]

Before I use paylah I actually use nets wallet

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:35 PM]

Somehow they discontinued their service

G, [29/7/2024 3:37 PM]

Ya lor.. today's topic really stinks of one giant DBS promotion.. 

And without any further explanation and clarification from @reachsg1, their chosen topic today appears to be the govt feedback department helping DBS solicit feedback for their product and marketing / sales / corporate social responsibility campaign

This is wrong

Nicholas, [29/7/2024 3:50 PM]

Why only DBS and POSB? Also, isn't scanning QR codes one of the ways scammers use to trick people (i.e. scammers will stick their QR code over the actual one)?

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 3:55 PM]

*e. Catalyst social initiatives for profitable Organisation that have done well to partake social services.*

1. DBS partnering the Government will become a catalyst to other local banks to offer similar cashback to jump into the bandwagon to offer similar social services.

2. DBS set aside $5 million to offer 8 million hawker meals to seniors and vulnerable is a philantropic and compassionate act to make our Society inclusive  - that really deserve our applaud.

3. Looking at the performance of DBS, DBS has done very well under the CEO Gupta.

Growing DBS to become a $739 billion company asset values with regional reach.

Hence, DBS is poise to be able to perform more social servcies for Singapore and benefit more Singaporeans.

4. Conversely, NTUC Income start off as a Cooperative to perform social services and mission..

But due to the nature of Cooperative - its structure restrict NTUC Income ability to grow, make profits - to benefits policyholders, shareholders and the Government - as it cannot raise liquidity easily due to its cooperative business structure (whereby Insurance business is capital intensive). Also it cannot achieve size advantage, go overseas to expand its business and achieve Economies of Scale.

Hence, we can see NTUC Income market share is a meagre 10% for a decade - without the means to growth.

Imagine, NTUC Income can only conduct its business domestically, and can only capture 10% of domestic market - it means its other insurance competitors (many are foreign global insurance conglomerates) have captured 90% of the domestic insurance market --- keeping NTUC Income viable and not closing shop - is already a miracle.

If nothing is done now, all the goodies health plan, saving plans offer by NTUC Income - can one day go down and close shop.

Now NTUC Income asset values are still healthy - merging at such high points will lock in a high values for NTUC Enterprise - as Allianz are willing to pay a hefty $2.2 billion for the shares - a good bargain for NTUC Enterprise.

I believe, NTUC Income will soon able to offer good health plans and saving plans not only to Singapore but also many countries market - with a low cost base as all our plans have already been cost in when planning for Singapore market - the upside revenue base will be very high for NTUC Income if we merge with Allianz.

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 3:57 PM]

But it's good that it is a bank initiative lah. If it is a government initiative then cannot be on paylah only

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 3:58 PM]

This is a DBS initiative.

Not government initiative.

If other banks don't want to join, how can government force them to do so?

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 4:00 PM]

But again... This is a gov feedback form as what others has said why is it worth to feedback? 

Unless DBS is a political significant person

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 4:00 PM]

The QR code is a SG QR code - a generic universal QR code.

Means other banks using paynow can scan.

But no discount because other banks didn't offer cashback.

Only DBS offer cashback.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 4:01 PM]

Hahaha...

I am not sensitive or paranoid - as long as it benefits Singapore and Singaporeans.

Like what I say, I pro-Singapore.

It is a community and social services efforts to benefit Singaporeans - I am not complaining.

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 4:02 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 4:03 PM]

33% is earning less than 2500...

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 4:03 PM]

This means a lot

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 4:04 PM]

And it's just dbs customers

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 4:05 PM]

Unless Uob and OCBC join in.

Then uob and OCBC customers benefits.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 4:05 PM]

Why should I complain if DBS offer cashback?

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 4:05 PM]

I am just complaining that a lot of people having low income

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 4:06 PM]

But low income got bank account with DBS, POSB.

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 4:06 PM]

Where Singapore is one of the richest country and most expensive country

G, [29/7/2024 4:07 PM]

The one who supports positions that erodes Singapore's sovereignty calls ownself pro-singapore

And considers others who desire to preserve Singapore's sovereignty as traitorous, and insinuate as unintelligent, name call "right wing" nationalist etc

G, [29/7/2024 4:08 PM]

Dear @reachsg1 

We want to hear from you too! 

Why is REACH Singapore Topic Poster, a govt platform, using this public feedback channel to solicit feedback for a private for profit organisation's marketing / sales / corporate social responsibility campaign?

How much is @reachsg1  being paid by DBS for this exercise? If not paid, then how is using tax dollars for the benefit of private for profit organisation's marketing/sales/corporate social responsibility campaign justifiable?

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:14 PM]

As for whether paylah will go down, well DBS bank will have to design a resilient digital infrastructure so that it won't go down.

I think I have address this quite a long time back in REACH WhatsApp group.

I think DBS is in a midst of getting the redundant and resilient infrastructure right by engaging independent IT expert consultants to resolve it.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:16 PM]

Also noticed that DBS disruption login woes are not too difficult to overcome :-

a. The latest login problem - due to high login volumes.

b. The previous login problem - need IT support to activate backup.

c. Long ago, upgrade the system - cause downtime, need to activate backup.

With reference to the "written" logical diagram:

1. Understand the average transaction volume and the peak transaction volume (eg. 100,000 thousand login - peak transaction volume).

2. Do engineering and math computation - how many Web-App-Database eg. Web ACS (Authentication/Access Control System), Apps (D3S system), Database - how many transaction it can handle.

Asssume the Web-App-DB set can handle a peak of 25,000 login volume, then 4 sets of Web-App-DB will suffice.

3. 2 SLB (Server Load Balancers) will suffice to handle 4 Web-App-DB virtual machines (VMs) running in "Active-Active" mode - no "Active-Passive" mode configuration - for internal resiliency - if one set down, the rest of the 3 sets takeover.

ie. 4 active "horses" running concurrently - each set able to handle 25,000 to handle peak customer login access.

4. 2 GLB or 3DNS (GLBs) will handle the external URL hit (and do URL and IP resolution).

If one Web-App-DB is overloaded with more than 25,000 login request, GLB will redirect remote customer login request to another Web-App-DB sets - by redistributing the login traffic - and traffic load can redistribute to 4 server set.

Hence no issue of heavy volume and server cannot handle heavy load.

(Note:- if there are a backup Data Centre (DC), additional 4 sets can be similarly configure - so in total 8 "Active-Active sets" are servicing the DBS customers - in "military grade resilient cyber infrastructure" with "No Single Point of Failure".

Even if the Primary Data Centre is on fire or bomb, Secondary Data Centre can run in "4 Active-Active" mode - and DBS customers may not even realise the DC1 is down.

5. Database is synchonized online through SAN configuration via fiber connection.

As one transaction is completed, the transacted record is updated via the multiple database in primary data centre and secondary data centre online, realtime.

6. Hence such desgin will address all the 3 scenarios that cause DBS login online disruption :-

a. Heavy load - redistributed by SLB and GLB

b. Primary Web-App-DB failure - SLB and GLB redirect to other healthy Wen-Apps-DB.

c. System upgrade failure in one Web-App-DB, can be taken offline immediately and SLB and GLB can redirect customers to other healthy sets.

7. So I don't see DBS login disruption will ever happen if the design are done correctly.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:17 PM]

This will solve the paylah disruption problem.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:19 PM]

Gov needs to nudge companies to do more CSR.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:20 PM]

Sorry what is csr?

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:20 PM]

What DBS is doing is called csr. Corporate social responsibility.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:20 PM]

Oh I see.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:21 PM]

Basically giving back to society

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:21 PM]

Hmm...

I see.

That is why DBS doing a good deeds.

Deserving our praise.

👍

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:22 PM]

I can see high level gov officials are involved in csr where companies are involved. Companies also want to be seen as doing good for society. They will show it off as part of their marketing.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:23 PM]

It’s win-win for everyone

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:23 PM]

Hmm..

I think UOB and OCBC do engage in csr in other areas.

But not in this context.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:24 PM]

Different company does differently

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:24 PM]

I personally know UOB do it.

Except I am not privy to OCBC.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:24 PM]

Yes.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:25 PM]

Gov official presence gives these people more incentive to participate.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:25 PM]

A chance to take pics

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:25 PM]

Agree.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:27 PM]

More positive energy created, more benefits for people.

More negative energy created, more toxic the environment.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:27 PM]

I know one MNC bank has volunteers delivering food on regular basis

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:28 PM]

👍

G, [29/7/2024 5:28 PM]

Yes, it's all very good wayang. 

That's why it's important to ask @reachsg1:

Why is REACH Singapore Topic Poster, a govt platform, using this public feedback channel to solicit feedback for a private for profit organisation's marketing / sales / corporate social responsibility campaign?

How much is @reachsg1   being paid by DBS for this exercise? If not paid, then how is using tax dollars for the benefit of private for profit organisation's marketing/sales/corporate social responsibility campaign justifiable?

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:28 PM]

Helping at events at istana

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:28 PM]

Good!

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:28 PM]

At the same time promoting their existence

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:29 PM]

Mutual benefits.

I think should be ok.

Self salvation, Salvage others.

I ok, you ok.

自度，度人。

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:30 PM]

There is always ways to look at things at half empty. Why not look at the half full side.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:30 PM]

Hahaha....

有慧根！

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:31 PM]

I would even suggest that gov put some money into an initiative. Half funded by gov, half by private.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:32 PM]

It’s better this way compared to gov giving money directly to

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:32 PM]

People

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:32 PM]

Hmmmm..

I think they got.

Some initiatives are something like if private fund $1, government top-up $1.

Something like that.

Not exactly sure what initiatives are that. Cannot recall base on my memory.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:34 PM]

I know gov pays people to be trained and put to work in banks. Salary is funded by both gov and bank.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:38 PM]

I think skills future got something like that.

Anyway MOM should be designing a more robust similar scheme to help retrenched workers.

But must have safeguard so that it will not be abused and lose the motivation to find jobs.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:38 PM]

Is there a central website where people can see all the available places for volunteering? This would be helpful.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:39 PM]

We already have one for giving money.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:40 PM]

Something like giving.sg

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:40 PM]

I think mom did design a government web portal whereby business must put enlistment into this web portal categorise by types of jobs.

But I don't have the URL for this.

Maybe some participants may know of such link?

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:41 PM]

MyCareersFuture Singapore | Find jobs in Singapore that match your skills

https://www.mycareersfuture.gov.sg/

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:41 PM]

Not sure is it this one or not.

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:42 PM]

Makes it easier for people to find a cause for volunteering

Hanny, [29/7/2024 5:42 PM]

Career future is for finding jobs

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:45 PM]

But I heard writing resume need to be certain types of format then can be successful.

Because some companies use some software or AI to filter the resumes first.

If your resume is not of a certain format, your resume will get filter out - no chance to even get an interview.

I think needs to register with e2i ask for a career coach to help you.

May need to attend a resume writing course & 1 think 1 day.

Free.

Also got free lunch.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:45 PM]

Oh volunteer I don't know.

G, [29/7/2024 5:49 PM]

Not to give DBS feedback but to the govt:

Big cost drivers for businesses are rental costs. What is the govt doing to lower costs of doing businesses? Why have a REITS environment that incentivises rent hikes? Re covid: how much of such govt covid aid actually end up with the REITS?

Ease cost of living: Reduce taxes. Lower GST back to 7% then back down to 5%. We've seen how businesses drastically increased prices at each tranche of GST increase, and the cost more often than not, gets transferred to the end consumer. We have seen how S&CC fees, utility fees etc have all increased, which also translate to increased business costs

Cut excessive govt spending on dead weight appointments (like mayors) and long term projects like some pet R&D that has little yield besides bragging rights. Fund them using govt bonds instead of taxes.

Govt should take a good hard look at themselves and cut all the unnecessary spending. Stop their crutch mentality of relying on ever increasing taxes and tax rates to reduce cost of living for all

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 5:50 PM]

Volunteersg

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:50 PM]

Oh yes.

I think this is the one.

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 5:50 PM]

Join youth corp etc

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 5:51 PM]

Hahaha...

That's for youth.

Not for my age.

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 6:03 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Nicholas, [29/7/2024 6:08 PM]

If it's POSB and DBS paying for this as part of giving back, good on them, more organisations can do such giving back to community initiatives.

Nicholas, [29/7/2024 6:13 PM]

Ease cost of living pressures: when residents moving home need to clear things such as furniture and beds currently, there is no central contact that will co-ordinate giving and to whom. A lot of wastage as things in good condition are thrown away unnecessarily. Set up a coordinating team, so that such items can be collected and delivered to lower income homes who don't mind receiving used items in good condition.

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 6:14 PM]

Good idea.

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 6:34 PM]

Perhaps can let some hawker use rejected food and sell it at a lower price. Those that looks bad but still good to eat on hawker meal

Jun Ming, [29/7/2024 6:34 PM]

Buget meal on 2.50

LCL (Danny 心), [29/7/2024 6:34 PM]

Good idea.

I don't mind buying if it didn't turn bad.

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 6:46 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [29/7/2024 7:00 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

=====

REACH (Telegram) 5 -  What are your thoughts on the annual report on terrorism by the ISD? What more can Singapore do to combat the threats of terrorism and self-radicalisation?

(SK)

26 Jul 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 9:47 AM]

Dear contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 10:00 AM]

📢 Topic📢

On 25 Jul (Thursday), Singapore’s Internal Security Department (ISD) said in its annual report that the terrorism threat in Singapore has increased since the Israel-Hamas war, with the conflict sparking more acts of violence worldwide. ISD also reported that there has been more anti-Singapore rhetoric on social media, with some regional netizens perceiving Singapore to be pro-Israel.

💬 What are your thoughts on the annual report on terrorism by the ISD? What more can Singapore do to combat the threats of terrorism and self-radicalisation?

📌 Anti-Singapore sentiments

In its report, ISD said, "There has been an uptick in anti-Singapore sentiments on social media, among regional netizens who perceive Singapore to be pro-Israel".

ISD also said some regional extremist elements took issue with Singapore’s contribution to Operation Prosperity Guardian, which is an international maritime security force formed to respond to attacks by Yemeni Houthi rebels against shipping in the Red Sea.

Following this contribution, ISD said there were social media posts urging attacks against Singapore using bombs and rockets, and calling for the Republic to be destroyed and wiped out.

📌 Regional threat of terrorism

ISD also noted that Islamist terrorism remains at the forefront of the global terrorism threat landscape, in particular through ISIS. 

ISD also said that ISIS remains the primary threat actor in Southeast Asia too, where there have been ISIS-linked or inspired attacks and foiled plots. A example of this would be the attack on a police station in Malaysia by a 21-year-old inspired by extremist ideology, which left 2 police officers dead.

📌 Threat of terrorism financing in Singapore

ISD said the Israel-Hamas conflict has been exploited by terror elements for terrorism financing purposes. 

Even though there were no prosecutions of terrorism financing offences in Singapore in the past 12 months, the country remains a potential source of funds for terrorists and terrorist organisations abroad, said ISD.

ISD said Singaporeans need to be vigilant about the avenues through which they donate aid. It added that those hoping to donate should do so through charities such as the Red Cross and the Rahmatan Lil Alamin Foundation.

📌 Threat of self-radicalisation

ISD said that self-radicalisation continues to be the primary driver of the terror threat in Singapore.

Since 2015, 52 self-radicalised individuals – 40 Singaporeans and 12 foreigners – have been issued with orders under the Internal Security Act (ISA). Among them are 13 Singaporean youths aged 20 or younger. ISD has dealt with three such cases since July last year, with all issued Restriction Orders.

This underscores the radicalising risk that foreign extremist narratives can pose to Singapore’s own national security and social harmony, said the ISD.

👉https://str.sg/FQcz

👉https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/terrorism-threat-elevated-renewed-israel-palestine-conflict-singapore-also-affected-isd-4503686

------

G, [26/7/2024 11:12 AM]

😂 The way today's topic is phrased.. very bait like. 

Any response that appears even mildly contrary to the good job of ISD can be seen as terrorism support. Then ISD will come to the contributors' homes to arrest them 

😂

G, [26/7/2024 11:14 AM]

I better say something positive now before I get on their blacklist 

GREAT JOB ISD! 👏👏👏

Many applause for you!

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 12:14 PM]

Dear Contributors

We want to HEAR MORE from you! 

💬 What are your thoughts on the annual report on terrorism by the ISD? What more can Singapore do to combat the threats of terrorism and self-radicalisation?

Megan 😊

Adam, [26/7/2024 12:17 PM]

ISD watching this honeypot group

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 2:05 PM]

📢 Topic📢

Jun Ming, [26/7/2024 2:12 PM]

Singapore don't care about Israel or hamas or whatsoever. Singapore just anti violence

Jun Ming, [26/7/2024 2:14 PM]

For donation aid how can one observe and donate correctly so they don't donate to the wrong organisation? Especially YouTube have a lot of such donations advertisment

Jun Ming, [26/7/2024 2:15 PM]

Malaysia is anti Israel so of I go to Malaysia and someone happens to ask me to donate...

LCL (Danny 心), [26/7/2024 2:29 PM]

1. Being a small and openly connected Country, Singapore is vunlerable to 2 types of threats - External and Internal threat.

There are many threats we need to be vigilant and safeguard against :- Economic threat (eg. de-Globalisation, decoupling, Protectionism, Isolationism) etc; Kinetic Threat arising from Geopolitical tension, Extremism; Global Climate threat, etc.

2. The purview of ISD are Kinetic threat - and specifically Internal Threat, Radicalisation and Extremism working with other internal Security Organisations and foreign internal security organisations - to protect Singapore from such Kinetic Threats.

LCL (Danny 心), [26/7/2024 2:50 PM]

3. Internal Threat - are affected by 2 factors - External Global events and Internal Racial, Religious, Social harmony and even Political and Economical disharmony -- fuel and propagated by the pervasiveness of social media that can permeate digitally savvy citizens.

(无行，无极，尽虚空遍法界）- Virtual, Infinite omnipresence and permeable.

4. The most pertinent threats rearing the head currently are :

a. Israel-Hamas and Axis proxies war (External Global events that reverbate through the Globe)

b. challenging our internal religious and racial harmony as the war escalate and prolong - with no guarantee of resolution in sight in the Middle East.

5. Actually what happen in Gaza - has nothing to do with Singapore - being such a faraway place and being over territorial dispute that should not concern Singapore - as it is up to the disputing parties to settle.

6. But what ripple through our Society is the "religious factor" - specifically "the historical various Abrahamic religious factions - unable to mutually accomodate each other's religious worship".

7. It is this factor -- that have challenge our internal racial and religious harmony - though by far and large, our religious reconciliation committee comprise of the religious leaders of various faiths have keep all the faiths on even keel - though external events threaten to unravel the underlying tensions.

8. Notice in social settings, people of various races and faiths are relatively calm, interact with one another in social settings - without uneasiness and social tensions - this is a good sign.

LCL (Danny 心), [26/7/2024 3:10 PM]

9. But ISD reports is not so comforting - as it has discovered hostile intention against Singapore in social media - instigated by Islamic extremists to attack Singapore.

a. This is done by radicalising individual to be internal lone wolves to act in violence or recruit similar value individuals to do coordinated attack in our soil or go abroad to join the Middle East fight.

b. Infiltrating foreign individuals into our shores to commit violence.

10. The Islamic extremists justification is that we are friendly to Israel, we join the Allies effort to coordinate the protection of sea lanes and commercial ships in Gulf of Aden and the Red sea.

But this Islamic extremists fail to acknowlege - that we are a neutral party that stand on the rule of law for eg. :-

a. We support UN 2 State solutions - but must ensure both Palestinians and Israel the right of existence

b. We provide humanitarian aids to Palestinians in Gaza and air drop the aids

c. We condemn Hamas atrocities on civilians and take hostage, and at the same breath vote against Israel forces killing of civilians

d. We hosted Palestine officers in Singapore and train them on governance administrative service.

10. Such Islamic extremist overt hostile development against us in social media - pose a security threat to us and regardless of all race and religions, our people should be vigilance to watch out for any hostile activities taking place in our Community and Society - and immediately report it to the Authorities if any suspicious activities are taking place.

Only through Community efforts, can we detect early hostile activities - and stop it at its bud before it happens.

11. Of course, ISD intelligence gatherings with foreign security organisations, regular surveillance, digital surveillance and defence will be very important to sniff out hostile activities that are festering and take proactive actions.

---

LCL (Danny 心), [26/7/2024 3:29 PM]

12. Another unexpected new threat that emerge from the Israel-Hamas war as well as the development of "far right" ideologies (from a dormant 19th century nationalism) - originating from the West are rearing its head --- unfortunately is taking the same route --- by using social media to propagate their values and instigating violence.

13. ISD report cited examples of such incidents in Singapore whereby lone wolves are attracted to such far right ideologies - and has been radicalised - but fortunately being discovered early by ISD and taken action to prevent violence incident in Singapore.

This will inevitably stretch ISD resources - as they not only conduct surveillance on Islamic extremists, and now have to allocate resources to scan far right extremists.

14. Hence all the more, all of our populations need to be united - and not create unnecessary trouble and distract our security organisations who are busy with tackling external threats and internal radicalisation --- that are posing very real kinetic threat within our Community.

15. Singapore land mass, a little red dot - is indeed very small and population density are very compact with no big hinterland for buffer.

Any untoward incident, can have very devastating physical, psychological and social impact - as our population live so close together.

16. Looking forward, the coming years and decades will not be easy years for us - because geopolitical tensions, economic challenges such as global inflation, decoupling, trade tension, global climate and environmental threat, Middle East religious tension etc --- will be extremely challenging.

17. Singapore will need all our best people in the Cabinets, Parliaments, Civil Service, Social Organisation, Business, Community Leaders, Religious Leaders at the helm - to tackle all the External and Internal challenges --- because they can really pose an existential threat to all of us.

LCL (Danny 心), [26/7/2024 3:42 PM]

18. All is needed, is one slip, and a kinetic threat unravel - then the physical damage, psychological impact - will unravel our social fabric -- and it will take a long time to recover.

19. Hence we need to do well in all our 6 pillars in Total Defense to :-

a. Stay United

b. Identify any threats early

c. Tackle it and nip it in the bud before it happens

d. And if unfortunately if any kinetic threat occurs (even low level intensity ones) occur - muster all our 6 pillars Total Defense to recover quickly - and not let our social fabric unravel to the points that turn into chaos.

20. Hence, our 6 pillars of Total Defense :--

i. Military Defense - strong and capable SAF and Home Team

ii. Civil Defense - well prepared and well trained civil defense system 

iii. Economic Defense - resilient, diversified and reliable economic and financial system

iv. Social Defense - a cohesive, united, resilient, inclusive, understanding and tolerant communities

v. Psychological Defense - informed, selfless and supportive citizenry

vi. Digital Defense - secure, resilient and reliable digital infrastructure

should be sharpen and ready at all time - to protect our population from whatever threats that come our way in this very uncertain times.

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 4:04 PM]

📢 Topic📢

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 5:10 PM]

Dear Contributors

We want to HEAR MORE from you! 

💬 What are your thoughts on the annual report on terrorism by the ISD? What more can Singapore do to combat the threats of terrorism and self-radicalisation?

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 6:04 PM]

📢 Topic📢

LCL (Danny 心), [26/7/2024 6:11 PM]

Of all the pillars, Digital Defense will form the 1st line of defense against radicalization and extremism.

As radical ideas will likely to come from social media and social communication platform.

Hence a very solid digital defense need to be in place - and it will be our very important 1st line of defense.

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

LCL (Danny 心), [26/7/2024 6:51 PM]

1. To scan a large mass of text, data, image, voice, video on radicalisation and extremism, AI will be a game changer - by exploiting Natural Language Processing, Machine Languagge, Large Language Model, Computer Vision, Sentimental Analysis etc --- and also should include foreign language conversion to English language --- in case radical views are communicated in foreign languages.

2. This will enhance productivity many times - to relieve human surveillance of vast amount of data - that will be very taxing.

G, [26/7/2024 6:59 PM]

At this rate, perhaps it's timely that SG starts a new ministry: 

Ministry of truth. Their job will be to create narratives and ensure that only those narratives are the truth, and only those narratives are propagated. 

Anything contrary to those narratives will be flagged as dangerous. And anyone subscribing to those contrary narratives are enemies of SG and will be punished with the full might of the ISD and the law, and need to be out through reeducation. 

SG already took the first step to this ministry creation with POFMA.

REACH Singapore, [26/7/2024 7:01 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

===

REACH (Telegram) 4 - What are your thoughts on the partnership between Income and Allianz to provide affordable insurance to lower-income individuals? Do you think this initiative will affect Income's mission to prioritise the needs of middle- to low-income Singapore workers?

(SK)

25 Jul 2024 (10am - 7pm)

REACH (Telegram)

REACH Singapore, [25/7/2024 10:18 AM]

Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10.20am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited. 

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment. 

4. No need to repeat your comment or in differnet forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time. 

5. Let's protect each other's privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://www.reach.gov.sg/Participate/reach-telegram-group/REACH-Telegram-Group-Chat-Terms-of-Use/

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all. 

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies. 

The topic will be posted shortly. 

Thank you. 

Megan 😊

REACH Singapore, [25/7/2024 10:20 AM]

📢 Topic 📢

Germany's Allianz plans to acquire a majority stake in Singapore's Income Insurance for about US$1.6 billion, prompting concerns about affordable insurance for lower-income customers. NTUC Enterprise chairman Lim Boon Heng assured that Income will maintain its commitment to affordable and accessible insurance, participate in national programs, and remain competitive. 

There have been concerns about the possible sale, that it could undermine Income's social mission to maximize social impact over profits. However, NTUC Enterprise believes Allianz's involvement will enhance Income's competitiveness and long-term relevance while upholding its social commitments.

💬 What are your thoughts on the partnership between Income and Allianz to provide affordable insurance to lower-income individuals? Do you think this initiative will affect Income's mission to prioritise the needs of middle- to low-income Singapore workers?

"This majority stake is expected to elevate Allianz’s presence in the fast-growing and attractive Singapore insurance market," Allianz said. Allianz also said it intends for Income Insurance to continue to recognise the union and uphold the principles of good labour management relations as advocated by the tripartite partners in Singapore.

📌 Affordable Insurance Products

NTUC Enterprise Chairmain Mr Lim Boon Heng said that Income Insurance will continue to provide affordable and accessible insurance options tailored for underserved and lower-income customers, including specific products like LUV and SilverCare policies.

📌 Participation in National Programs

Income Insurance will continue to participate in national insurance programmes in partnership with the CPF Board.

Allianz’s offer to be a majority shareholder will enable Income Insurance to be even more relevant and resilient over the long term, to serve families in Singapore, and fulfil its obligations to its policyholders.

📌 Competitive Pricing

Mr Lim also notes that Income insurance will continue to price its products competitively, and that bringing in a global player with proven insurance and asset management capabilities would help Income compete more effectively.

👉https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/income-insurance-allianz-majority-stake-bid-affordable-lower-income-4500661?cid=internal_sharetool_iphone_25072024_cna

-----

G, [25/7/2024 10:24 AM]

Selling out SG, one organisation at a time

Adam, [25/7/2024 10:24 AM]

I wonder what do they mean by 'lower-income customers'. If they need more insurance, is medishield life not enough?

Also what is the premiums for targeting this segment? Especially when they are old? And will our elders be able to enter this policy?

G, [25/7/2024 10:26 AM]

"Assurances" mean nothing. Actions mean everything. By selling off cooperatives, selling off SG

G, [25/7/2024 10:32 AM]

"partnership" between income and Allianz? Trying too hard to phrase it positively?

This is a pure for-profit business deal. Where the rich continue to siphon money off the poor. Make the rich richer and the poor poorer

Is this part of the insurance industry shake up that OYK mentioned a few months back?

After this what? The PAP govt will come in with CDC vouchers for people to buy insurance, and a new way for them to buy people's votes?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 10:45 AM]

I don't feel the current insurance packages offer by Income are different from many commercial insurance package offer by GE, Manulife, etc.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 10:50 AM]

In fact, some public service insurance packages are won by commercial insurance companies providing more competitive prices.

Eg. NS men insurance packages are won by singlife and Aviva.

Adam, [25/7/2024 10:50 AM]

If pap gives grant to buy insurance. Confirm all prices go up by the same amount

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 10:51 AM]

*NS Man Insurance Coverage*

The NS man insurance coverage is provided by Singlife with Aviva ¹ ² ³. Here are some key points about the coverage:

- *Free Group Term Life and Group Personal Accident Insurance*: The Ministry of Defence (Mindef) and Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) provide free Group Term Life and Group Personal Accident insurance cover to all full-time national servicemen (NSFs) and operationally ready national servicemen (NSmen) while they are on official duties ¹ ² ³.

- *Voluntary Scheme*: NSmen can continue their coverage even after they have completed their full-time National Service by purchasing additional Group Term Life and Group Personal Accident coverage under the Voluntary Scheme ¹ ² ³.

- *Coverage Amount*: The coverage amount can be extended up to $1 million for Group Term Life and up to $600,000 for Group Personal Accident ¹ ² ³.

- *Premiums*: The premiums for these policies are fixed, and NSmen can pay the same amount upon renewal every year until they're 65 for Group Term Life or 70 for Group Personal Accident ¹ ² ³.

- *Family Coverage*: Insured members' spouses and children can also be covered at the same rate ¹ ² ³.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 10:52 AM]

It is all about financial muscle, and whether the package benefits customers and make money for the insurance companies.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 10:59 AM]

In fact some commercial insurance companies offer more competitive insurance packages than income.

Eg. Manulife offer 3.5% Saving plan.

Income offer 3.38%.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 11:05 AM]

If NTUC is political significant figure why income which is part of NTUC can be acquired by foreign company?

G, [25/7/2024 11:16 AM]

First few steps of "you'll own nothing and you'll be happy" 

SG selling off home grown organisations to foreign for-profit ones. SG won't be owning anything soon. NOL was gone, SPH etc. Might as well sell off temasek and gic to the lowest bidder too

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:18 AM]

Manulife through DBS minimum sum placement is $5,000 and can use srs and have open for few months.

Income is $1,000, cannot use srs. Open for less than 1 to 2 weeks.

Low and middle income benefits more from DBS Manulife package.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:20 AM]

Nol and sph are making less and less profit and even losses.

Keep wasting away singapore reserves.

If don't sell and cut loss, let it continues to bleed and Singapore reserves keep dwindling?

G, [25/7/2024 11:22 AM]

Lim Boon Heng is affiliated with WEF. Wasn't he also around in NOL when it was sold off?

Selling out the country. Traitor

G, [25/7/2024 11:23 AM]

Ah.. so your answer to set backs is just give up and quit and sell out to foreigners 👍

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:24 AM]

All loss cutting companies should be sold off.

Else we taxpayers money keep paying taxes to keep loss making company afloat?

G, [25/7/2024 11:25 AM]

😂 at this rate can sell out the public hospitals too since they are loss making and need taxpayers to prop up?

G, [25/7/2024 11:26 AM]

Make the leaders of NOL / NTUC income commit hari Kiri first

G, [25/7/2024 11:27 AM]

Do it the LYK way. Hold the leaders of the organisations responsible for the organisations' failures

G, [25/7/2024 11:27 AM]

Look at Ng yat chung

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:27 AM]

There is such thing call sunset company and sunrise company.

Sunset sell.

Sunrise keep.

G, [25/7/2024 11:28 AM]

NOL dive bombed under his leadership. And what happened to him? Rewarded with leadership of SPH

G, [25/7/2024 11:28 AM]

So NTUC income is sunset? 

Insurance industry is sunset?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:31 AM]

Some countries reserves have been depleted because they don't subject to market discipline.

Even loss making companies bail out.

Singapore conduct market discipline.

Non strategic companies, sunset company, loss making - sell.

Profit making, strategic companies - keep.

No need to be nostalgic.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:32 AM]

Later I will talk about this.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:33 AM]

Singapore sovereign funds grow - one of the highest in the world because of market discipline.

Not nostalgic, not sentimental, not blind nationalism.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:35 AM]

Evidently, when I check, public hospitals though not profit driven are making money and sustainable.

G, [25/7/2024 11:42 AM]

Not about nostalgia. About keeping sovereignty. Like what Jun Ming mentioned earlier: NTUC is politically significant person

So it's subsidiary can anyhow sell to foreigners?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:43 AM]

Because Singapore has no natural resources..

The only natural resources we have are:-

1. Humans capital 

2. Sovereign funds and reserves

G, [25/7/2024 11:43 AM]

At this rate can sell out the sovereign funds and reserves too

G, [25/7/2024 11:44 AM]

NTUC was first set up to keep prices low, be it groceries, or even insurance.

G, [25/7/2024 11:44 AM]

It's long lost it.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:45 AM]

So you suggest keep all the loss making companies, deplete our reserves and all goes our CPF money invested by GIC?

G, [25/7/2024 11:45 AM]

Haha. Why the fear mongering on reserves depletion?

G, [25/7/2024 11:45 AM]

NTUC was set up to meet social needs. To keep prices low. All these come at a cost

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:45 AM]

Based on what you say - yes.

G, [25/7/2024 11:46 AM]

If anything then temasek and gic better work harder

G, [25/7/2024 11:46 AM]

To pay for the social costs of organisations like NTUC

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:46 AM]

Does GIC invest money from the Central Provident Fund (CPF)? GIC, along with the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS), manages the proceeds from the Special Singapore Government Securities (SSGS) that are issued and guaranteed by the Government, which the CPF Board has invested in with the CPF monies.

G, [25/7/2024 11:47 AM]

So what you are suggesting is that temasek and GIC are not working hard enough because they are unable to continue the reserves  growth whilst spending on necessary social needs?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:48 AM]

Many pension funds in the world are making loss and cannot pay out - because their investment go astray.

This happen to US, China, Japan, EU, Taiwan, Malaysia etc.

G, [25/7/2024 11:48 AM]

Back to topic

G, [25/7/2024 11:49 AM]

And back to the reason NTUC income etc were set up in the first place

G, [25/7/2024 11:49 AM]

Stop finding excuses for their failures

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:49 AM]

Based on what you suggest, keeping loss making companies and continue to fund it, our reserves will be gone, and CPF will also be gone.

Now temasek, GIC and mas are doing well.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:50 AM]

US - In 2023, the funded percentage of these plans decreased slightly from 99.4 percent to 98.5 percent. Concurrently, the pension deficit saw a significant increase, rising from US$8.5bn to US$19.9bn. The average return on investments was reported at 7.2 percent.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:50 AM]

China's premier government think tank, the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, estimates that the basic pension fund for urban employees will be depleted by 2035. China's pension system — the world's largest by total enrollees, while Japan's ranks No. 1 by assets — was once a robust government-only program.

G, [25/7/2024 11:51 AM]

No. First cut should always be to put competent leaders in the organisations and hold them accountable and replace them ruthlessly

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:51 AM]

EU Parliament plans to slash MEP pension fund amid deficit crisis

G, [25/7/2024 11:51 AM]

Very shortly after NOL was sold off, it became profitable for their new owners

G, [25/7/2024 11:52 AM]

If anything, this shows gross incompetence of the previous leadership

G, [25/7/2024 11:52 AM]

Why are we the taxpayers putting up with and paying for leadership incompetence?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:58 AM]

Neptune Orient Lines Limited (NOL) was a Singaporean container shipping company. It was founded in 1968 as Singapore's national shipping line, but was later sold as a subsidiary to French shipping company CMA CGM in 2016.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 11:59 AM]

Well shipping lines undergo consolidation.

CMA CGM is a big shippers - of course make money.

Same as cosco.

Same as Maersk.

Not possible, for a small freighter to compete on world market - thus right strategy to sell.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:00 PM]

Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) lawmakers on Thursday urged labor insurance reforms after the Cabinet announced a plan to inject NT$45 billion (US$1.42 billion) to bolster Taiwan’s insurance funds.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:00 PM]

Malaysians face poverty after retirement as pension crisis looms

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:01 PM]

Japan's state pension fund, the world's largest, posted a loss of ¥683.2 billion ($4.5 billion) on total assets during the three months through September as its holdings of domestic debt slumped by a record. The Government Pension Investment Fund lost 0.3% during the quarter, the fund said in Tokyo Thursday.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:03 PM]

Singapore CPF pension funds - is only very rare in the world that is still paying very healthy interest rate to us.

And seniors can comfortably withdraw their life savings at old age.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:04 PM]

If everyone believe government should follow this gentleman blind faith - even loss making companies must keep.

I think we can kiss and wave bye bye to our CPF pension funds already.

Anyone?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:16 PM]

Once I overheard a Minister saying - don't expect government to use funds to bail out GLCs companies which are not making money unless very strategic ones that are vital to national security.

And even so, strategic companies must turn profitable.

Eg. SIA during pandemic time.

Minister say, the ultimate consideration is Singapore interest, not individual company.

Many years later, a reputable investment chief say the same thing to all the GLCs CEOs.

I quietly applaud their Wisdom.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:26 PM]

1. Based on what I read about the Income - it is a cooperative design for social services.

2. Hence it cannot solicit and pool capitals from traditional source like listing in stock exchange and hence very restrictive to its organic growth.

3. Income market is only within Singapore - a small population market of about 5.65 million people - a small indeed.

Now income has done well, but reach the peak of its growth constrained by the size of Singapore small market.

The only way to further grow is to enter the global market.

Being a cooperative, it cannot do so.

So the next natural step is to merge with another global insurance company with same values to grow.

Allianz is a trillion $ German company with insurance market all over the world.

It will make income grow phenomenally and offer even better insurance packages to Singaporeans because of its financial muscle, wider global customer base, and economies of scale.

I will think that Singaporeans will benefit more than less.

G, [25/7/2024 12:31 PM]

That's right, rationalising selling out the country to foreigners bit by bit 👍. Lagi use off topic things like CPF to spin the tale

NTUC is a politically significant person. And a deal is on the table to sell significant portions

G, [25/7/2024 12:32 PM]

If what you claim is true

G, [25/7/2024 12:32 PM]

What assurances do Singaporeans have that Lim Boon Heng will keep his word?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:32 PM]

Because Allianz has access to 8 billions people in global market versus Singapore miserable 5.65 million people.

Allianz has access to US$101 trillion global GDP versus Singapore US $466.8 billions GDP.

And Singapore Income still own 49% of our shares, not completely sold everything.

So if Allianz help us to grow 2 to 3 times our current size for Income, our reserves will be very rich, our CPF pension funds will be even stronger.

Blind nationalism, nostalgia don't help.

In addition, the insurance packages offer to Singaporeans will be very competitive because of economies of scale offer to world market.

G, [25/7/2024 12:33 PM]

Why and how does Income's growth translate to SG reserve growth?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:34 PM]

Anyhow spin.

Income is not under political significant person PSP.

NTUC union is.

G, [25/7/2024 12:36 PM]

🤣

G, [25/7/2024 12:37 PM]

This is like saying PA is not PAP

G, [25/7/2024 12:37 PM]

Everything true on paper only

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:38 PM]

NTUC Income is a cooperative insurance company in Singapore, and it is not directly under the control of any political significant person. However, NTUC Income is a subsidiary of the National Trades Union Congress (NTUC), which is a trade union federation in Singapore.

The NTUC has close ties with the ruling People's Action Party (PAP) in Singapore, and some of its leaders have held political appointments. For example:

1. Ng Chee Meng: The current Secretary-General of NTUC is also a Member of Parliament (MP) and the Minister for Education.

2. Chan Chun Sing: The former Secretary-General of NTUC is also a Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for Finance.

While NTUC Income is not directly controlled by any political significant person, its parent organization, NTUC, has connections to the ruling party in Singapore. However, NTUC Income operates independently and is governed by its own board of directors, which includes representatives from the insurance industry, finance, and healthcare.

It's worth noting that NTUC Income is a cooperative insurance company, which means it is owned and controlled by its policyholders, rather than external shareholders. This cooperative structure is designed to ensure that the company serves the interests of its policyholders and the broader community, rather than maximizing profits for external investors.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:39 PM]

Income not under political significant person.

G, [25/7/2024 12:39 PM]

Ah.. and NTUC enterprise chairman LIm Boon Heng had to come out and assure?

G, [25/7/2024 12:40 PM]

"owned and controlled by policy holders" 🤣 49% nia

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:42 PM]

NTUC Income, as a cooperative insurance company, is required to contribute to the Singapore government's reserves through various means:

1. *Dividend payments*: NTUC Income pays dividends to its parent company, NTUC, which in turn contributes a portion of these dividends to the Singapore government's reserves.

2. *Investment returns*: NTUC Income invests its assets, including premiums collected from policyholders, in various instruments such as bonds, equities, and real estate. The returns on these investments are also contributed to the Singapore government's reserves.

3. *Tax payments*: NTUC Income pays taxes on its profits to the Inland Revenue Authority of Singapore (IRAS), which contributes to the government's revenue and ultimately, the national reserves.

4. *Special dividend payments*: In times of exceptional profits, NTUC Income may declare special dividends, which can also contribute to the national reserves.

However, it's important to note that NTUC Income's primary focus is on serving its policyholders and providing affordable insurance coverage, rather than maximizing contributions to the national reserves.

The Singapore government's reserves are managed by various entities, including the Government Investment Corporation (GIC), Temasek Holdings, and the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS). These entities invest and manage the reserves to generate returns, which can be used to fund public expenditures, support economic development, and maintain Singapore's financial stability.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:42 PM]

NTUC do contribute to reserves.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:43 PM]

As of December 2022, National Trades Union Congress (NTUC) Fairprice Co-operative reported total assets of around 5.42 billion Singapore dollars, down from around 5.62 billion Singapore dollars in the previous year.29 May 2024

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:44 PM]

If Allianz can grow our assets 2, 3 or 4 times.

If use calculator to count, it will be say 20 billion.

49%, easily 9.8 billions.

G, [25/7/2024 12:52 PM]

😂 so.. with this deal it seems the cat is out of the bag. The real reason to sell off national assets is not primarily for policy holders' benefits. It's a by the way, ex-politician spiel to "lubricate" this news.. 

Now, which policy holders decided to sell off 51% of Income?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:56 PM]

Anyone support this guy if our CPF pension funds go into deficit by hanging on to companies not able to grow or make loss?

Income now cannot grow further in Singapore market - fully saturated.

Being a cooperative cannot go global to seek further funding and sell to global markets.

So I support selling income 90% to Allianz to further grow our assets.

G, [25/7/2024 12:57 PM]

Traitorous

G, [25/7/2024 12:57 PM]

Might as well sell the country while you are at it

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 12:58 PM]

Well you can hang on to a sinking ship like titanic.

I support government make a bigger ships and do better for all Singaporeans.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 12:59 PM]

But... If NTUC income sold to allianz income is still under control of NTUC enterprise right

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:00 PM]

I think so

G, [25/7/2024 1:00 PM]

How so if allianz owns 51% of it?

G, [25/7/2024 1:01 PM]

It's like saying minority has control. Does WP have control of sg govt or PAP?

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:01 PM]

Then what ever the chairman said is just empty promises

G, [25/7/2024 1:02 PM]

Exactly... Talk only. very easy.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:03 PM]

So it means income will become a private entity instead of a government entity

G, [25/7/2024 1:04 PM]

And with this deal, how does NTUC income still maintain it's mission to be a coorperative and keep premiums low and products good?

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:05 PM]

And is there any check and balance where they won't take the money and zhao

G, [25/7/2024 1:06 PM]

If anything, it may well be the start of low premiums with bad offerings... then other issurers see already, follow suit.. because the NTUC brand still somehow seen as a standard setter.. will result in worse outcomes for all

G, [25/7/2024 1:06 PM]

except the national reserves and allianz shareholders

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:06 PM]

Ask everyone here.

If Singapore bankrupt, loss money, cannot pay CPF - like what this guy suggest - who is more traitorous?

Now Singapore government can honour our CPF pension funds unlike many rich countries.

Is Singapore government more competent and put Singaporeans at heart than what this guy - blind nationalism, and irrational logic suggest?

Penny wise but pound foolish.

I rather Singapore government has the bigger wisdom.

That's why Singapore are doing very well.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:08 PM]

Actually, income premium is not that low because it does not have an economies of scale unlike global insurance companies who have access to bigger fund sources and global customers.

That is why many commercial insurance companies can offer better payout rate in Singapore.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:09 PM]

True

G, [25/7/2024 1:10 PM]

😂 Why ask this? why not question why the leadership of such organisations are so incompetent that resulted in selling sg assets to foreigners? Why weren't these incompetent leaders able to grow the organisations such that we are the ones buying foreign assets?

Instead you are excusing leadership failure, and trying to spin traitorous actions as advantageous for SG. It's calling good evil, and evil good.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:14 PM]

You see, I don't have to convince one person who is hardcore and unbendable.

Despite the rational views are presented.

I only have to convince the majority of the people who are more rational, sensible, and can listen and accept good judgement and reasoning.

Not those irrational, not sensible people.

Ultimately, it is those sensible and rational people who contribute to the vote for a competent government to win - never mind those minority irrational one.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:19 PM]

I mean compared to other insurance company NTUC is not the cheapest and affordable

G, [25/7/2024 1:19 PM]

😂 Rationalising selling out the country.. Somehow giving up more and more of the country's sovereignty is pleasing in your sight

at this rate, sg's sovereignty will only be defined by this: (borrowing Bilahari's description) having a seat at the UN, but unable to defend it's own national interests

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:20 PM]

But... NTUC is always seen as a national asset instead of a private entity

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:22 PM]

Yes this is what I mean.

Because NTUC income only have assess to a small domestic population and can attract assets domestically.

That is why, income don't have economies of scale.

Hence it cannot offer as cheap and competitive rates compared to global insurance companies.

Contrary to what many people here think.

If income merge with Allianz, competitive rates can be offered because of the global economies of scale.

It will benefits more Singaporeans conversely.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:22 PM]

And I think NTUC must have the majority of have a control so things don't go wrong. You can sell 48% to venture out of the country but not 51%

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:23 PM]

Must be able to see a bigger perspective.

不着外相。

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:26 PM]

The thing about singapore is that people have loads of money locked up in cpf medisave that can only be used for insurance. If the gov make insurance company unable to pull from medisave then see if they still wanna buy income

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:27 PM]

This is a commercial decision.

I will leave it to the Minister to provide the answer in Parliament why not 51% and take only 49%.

I can guess without 51%, Allianz cannot restructure and move things around.

I think is the best to leave it to the Minister to explain as I have no privy to the decision.

But I think our government must have examine all the pros and cons - and this is the best position for Singapore.

I always emphasize Singapore.

I am pro-Singapore.

Not pro-income.

Or pro-political party.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:28 PM]

Gov must rethink cpf and medisave. Does the current policies still serve in our best interest? Should insurance company profit from cpf?

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:28 PM]

Using CPF buying any insurance plan is a scam

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:28 PM]

I am pro Singapore, not pro income.

Whatever the outcome is best for Singapore and Singaporeans, then the decision is the right decision.

Hence income to survive, will have to be competitive.

G, [25/7/2024 1:29 PM]

What's the bigger perspective? To have a positive perception that foreign entities owning national assets is not traitorous? That foreign entities owning national assets is not selling out the country? That foreign entities owning national assets is not eroding sovereignty?

G, [25/7/2024 1:31 PM]

You claim to be pro-Singapore, but continuously support views, opinions, and actions that erode Singapore's sovereignty

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:32 PM]

Previously, when government want to sell POSB to DBS, there are similar hue and cry.

POSB are touted as savings bank for the kids, for lower and middle income people.

Many Singaporeans raise similar nationalist sentiment.

However our government has foresight.

Now DBS has reached almost $1 trillion assets and revenue.

Same as OCBC, UOB who have merged many smaller banks.

3 of our local banks have regional footprints and are still growing.

G, [25/7/2024 1:33 PM]

How is selling POSB to DBS selling to foreign entities?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:33 PM]

I believe Income will go through similar journey and 10 years down the road as we look back, we will reassess what we do is visionary and insightful - that we have make the right decision or not.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:33 PM]

Nah i dont think so. Insurance is a different beast

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:35 PM]

Manulife insurance is $1 trillion company and still growing.

DBS leveraging on Manulife insurance plans have benefited significantly.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:35 PM]

Unlike banks, insurance is a bit of a lose-win relationship with customers. If you want them to grow and succeed, what does it mean for policyholders? Would they pay more premiums? Harder to claim? Insurance always have to take in more money then they give out

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:35 PM]

OCBC full acquisition of Great Eastern insurance - experience the same phenomenon.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:37 PM]

Bro, Manulife insurance is not health. Its more like investment and endowment

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:37 PM]

Insurance premiums is competitive because of Economies of scale.

The smaller the market, the higher the premium.

The bigger the global market, the lower the premium.

That's why global insurance companies can offer more competitive premium compare to income.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:37 PM]

If people cash out manulife the banks still profit. Can the same be said for income?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:38 PM]

Manulife also offer health.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:39 PM]

That's why income must go global.

Now income is cooperative, cannot go global.

Cannot source traditional funds.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:39 PM]

Is dbs leveraging manulife foe health insurance plans? I dont see it in dbs page

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:39 PM]

Income has reach its peak and cannot further grow or move.

Hence must coporatise and merge.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:39 PM]

Got plenty.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:40 PM]

Insurance have to segment its market. You think mnc insurance will make us pay us insurance rate if we only go local?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:40 PM]

Manulife Goal 2024 (II) | DBS Singapore

https://www.dbs.com.sg/personal/insurance/endowment-with-protection/wealth-accumulation-plans/manulife-goal

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:40 PM]

Thats not health...

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:41 PM]

Manulife got health.

DBS not selling health insurance.

Only savings and wealth funds.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:41 PM]

At this point we can argue about dbs home insurance vs hdb

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:42 PM]

Health Insurance | Private Medical Insurance | Manulife Singapore

https://www.manulife.com.sg/en/solutions/health/health.html

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:43 PM]

Well I think income will grow and do better with Allianz.

This is my assessment.

Further information, it is best for the Minister to provide more information in the parliament.

But the strategic direction is not wrong from the Economic point of view and from Economic fundamental.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 1:49 PM]

I agree that income can go global but why must other countries gain majority?

G, [25/7/2024 1:49 PM]

You have been beating about the bush and cannot adequately explain how selling the majority of NTUC income is beneficial to Singapore and Singaporeans. 

Instead, you try to bring in other off-topic things like CPF, some fear mongering about reserves depletion, POSB-DBS etc, and ignore the elephant in the room:

Selling a majority portion of national assets to foreign entities is great in your sight.. You even entertain thoughts of selling out the country "visionary"

Instead of questioning the leadership on how it has come to such a negative proposition for Singapore and its national asset, you fearmonger and ask if the reserves should prop up the national asset.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:49 PM]

Btw remember the good old days where house loan for private was cheap. Well it wont always be that way and now people go for hdb.

Perhaps income can grow with allianz, but i think people in sg have the expectation that Ntuc income is somewhat of a baseline due to ntuc close link to the government. It was originally made without a primary profit motive too.

Can we expect our interest to align if we sell to a foreign entity?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:49 PM]

Let us hear from the minister.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:50 PM]

Wait for the Minister to answer this.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:51 PM]

Btw, the insurance premiums offer by income is not the lowest.

Some global insurance companies health insurance premiums are lower than income.

Adam, [25/7/2024 1:51 PM]

If ntuc needs a bailout from reserve, do it sia style and crash shareholder value

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:51 PM]

*NS Man Insurance Coverage*

The NS man insurance coverage is provided by Singlife with Aviva ¹ ² ³. Here are some key points about the coverage:

- *Free Group Term Life and Group Personal Accident Insurance*: The Ministry of Defence (Mindef) and Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) provide free Group Term Life and Group Personal Accident insurance cover to all full-time national servicemen (NSFs) and operationally ready national servicemen (NSmen) while they are on official duties ¹ ² ³.

- *Voluntary Scheme*: NSmen can continue their coverage even after they have completed their full-time National Service by purchasing additional Group Term Life and Group Personal Accident coverage under the Voluntary Scheme ¹ ² ³.

- *Coverage Amount*: The coverage amount can be extended up to $1 million for Group Term Life and up to $600,000 for Group Personal Accident ¹ ² ³.

- *Premiums*: The premiums for these policies are fixed, and NSmen can pay the same amount upon renewal every year until they're 65 for Group Term Life or 70 for Group Personal Accident ¹ ² ³.

- *Family Coverage*: Insured members' spouses and children can also be covered at the same rate ¹ ² ³.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:52 PM]

Aviva and singlife win the nsman insurance.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 1:53 PM]

That's why you are smarter than that guy.

If every company need to be bail out by our reserves, soon Singapore will go bankrupt - with blind nationalism.

G, [25/7/2024 1:54 PM]

What shareholder value does NTUC Income have? Is it floated on any stock exchange?

G, [25/7/2024 1:59 PM]

😂 still going off topic, fearmongering and spinning, even equating smartness with being able to see the positivity of selling out majority share of national assets to foreign entities. 

Since you vehemently support selling out national assets to foreign entities (giving them majority share) why don't you defend your position on why this isn't traitorous to erode sovereignty without bringing in other things like CPF and fearmongering reserve depletion? 

Why cop out and defer to minister?

REACH Singapore, [25/7/2024 2:00 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:00 PM]

What Is The Best Health Insurance Plan in Singapore?

HealthShield Gold MaxAIA (https://www.moneysmart.sg/health-insurance/aia)Inpatient/Day surgery, outpatient treatmentPRUShieldPrudential (https://www.moneysmart.sg/health-insurance/prudential)Pre and post hospitalisation, Inpatient/Day surgeryIncomeShieldIncome (https://www.moneysmart.sg/health-insurance/ntuc-income)Outpatient treatment, organ transplantSupremeHealthGreat Eastern (https://www.moneysmart.sg/health-insurance/great-eastern)Outpatient treatment, high claim limit per policy yearShieldAXA (https://www.moneysmart.sg/health-insurance/axa)Cheapest premium, emergency overseas treatmentRaffles ShieldRaffles Health Insurance (https://www.moneysmart.sg/health-insurance/raffles-medical-group)High claim limit per policy year, pre and post hospitalisation

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:03 PM]

Unable to attach the comparison table insurance premiums for health insurance.

4 most competitive insurance premiums come from global insurance companies.

2 are from Singapore. Income and GE.

So doesn't mean global companies will offer more expensive premiums because of the economies of scale and its financial muscle.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:17 PM]

Another thing I want to dwell onto why good old days, private housing loans have cheap interest rate as compared to HDB housing loan of 2.6%.

1. Singapore monetary policy are not using interest rate to manage its monetary policy unlike many countries like USA and others.

2. The reason being, trade is 3 times the size of Singapore.

Hence exchange rate become our life hangar.

3. Our export need to be competitive and at the same time, we import many raw materials, semi finished goods for our manufacturing so that we can export competitively.

4. Hence we peg Singapore exchange rate to our supplier countries with a basket of currencies.

So that we can buy cheaply for imported goods and sell competitively to our export market.

5. We don't use interest rate to control our money supply.

6. But as we are a financial hub and needd to attract foreign capitals to put money into our banks and financial institutions, our interest rate will move in tandem to US Fed interest rate like HK.

7. Due to global inflation, Fed need to cut their money supply by hiking the interest rate through quantitative tightening.

So business and consumerd cannot borrow more loans and further fuel rising inflation.

8. Hence Singapore private bank interest rate to keep foreign money in our financial hub need to go up in tandem with Fed.

This is nothing to do with privatisation or nationalisation.

9. But our CPF didn't raise the oa interest rate in bad time or good times 2.6% - because our government maintain a long term average return to stabilise interest rate for housing.

This explains why interest rate in private are now higher compared to last time.

It is the global economic conditions, specifically global inflation that trigger this.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:26 PM]

Many people think that nationalisation of our domestic companies can bring lower prices.

This is not true according to market principles and economic fundamental.

Nationalisation is only good at the early development when companies are small and need national resources to grow it.

Once it reaches a certain size and reach saturation point, the next logical step is to corporatised it, merge it or acquisition - because it no longer can grow organically.

瓶颈。

Eg. Many China State companies grow phenomenonally initially.

But after a certain size, and when REACH saturation, it needs to corporatise and cannot be nationalised in order to grow overseas to seize the global market.

The World will not welcome a state companies to do business in their domestic market.

And state companies are usually inefficient because it depends on state funds to keep them alive.

State companies are not fully subject to market discipline and this lead to alot of wastage.

State companies if not operate efficiently will usually deplete the country reserves and deplete nation's precious funds.

China experience we all can see.

Hence income nationalisation can no longer sustain its growth.

The next logical step is corporatisatoon, merger and acquisition - that will make our economic pie bigger.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:30 PM]

Singapore has done a conversion from state companies from nationalisation in the 1990s to corporatisation - and Singapore economic growth and GDP has increase phenomenally ever since.

In my memories, SingTel, Starhub, NCS, ST Engineering, Keppel Corporation, POSB to DBS, SembCorp, PSA, SIA, Smrt, comfort delgro etc 

So many that I can't list all of them.

Singapore sovereign funds and reserves as a result had grown phenomenally.

Adam, [25/7/2024 2:30 PM]

How did corporatization and efficiency fare with smrt? Is that how we want things to end up?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:31 PM]

Example?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:32 PM]

SMRT's train business generated a revenue of $813.2 million in the 2023 financial year. Its profits after tax nearly quadrupled to $42.5 million.1 Aug 2023

Adam, [25/7/2024 2:33 PM]

For effciency sake, sure there can be things to optimise, but what if efficiency is gained though cutting costs and making service quality worse?

Adam, [25/7/2024 2:34 PM]

Our hawker centers are more efficient than ever with as much cleaners as there is customers

G, [25/7/2024 2:35 PM]

Resulting in brain drain. e.g. SG govt lost a lot of its own core engineering / technical competencies and is now still playing catch up. 

how do you put a monetary value for this? how is this "visionary"?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:36 PM]

Smrt at that time was run by a CEO who are marketing mind with little grounding in engineering.

It has now changed as at that time, many parts are due for overhaul and have not done so.

Thankfully, more engineering expertise have been poured into it, and now Smrt are running efficiently.

G, [25/7/2024 2:36 PM]

Ya. at what cost? massive breakdowns? loss in public confidence?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:36 PM]

Huh?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:38 PM]

The food court over here are packed with eating crowd.

Before I could even start my lunch, there are already people asking when am I finishing and let her have the seat.

G, [25/7/2024 2:39 PM]

Wasn't this after LTA did a massive overhaul of the public transport landscape?

why is it more efficient to have multiple "public transport" companies providing "public" transport services? did it lead to lower transport fares for everyone? why should a "public transport" company prioritise profits over providing affordable public transport fares?

why have to maintain multiple sets of overhead management costs?

G, [25/7/2024 2:41 PM]

You say this like it's a badge of honour. When instead, SMRT's role in sg is to provide affordable and good public transport

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:44 PM]

1. I am very grateful that Singapore has done well in making Singapore one of the highest income in the world.

Not everything cheap, cheap, cheap.

2. Singapore GDP PPP per capita $110,383 in 2022. Now should be higher.

3. Singapore household median income $10,869 per month.

4. Singapore government support grants in 2024 - about $10,000 more than cover our inflation 2.96%.

If everything want cheap - must as well migrate to Malaysia.

Food cheaper than Singapore.

But salary also very cheap.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:49 PM]

Full article: Nationalizations, bailouts and efficiency

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17487870.2019.1566065#abstract

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:51 PM]

Sometimes I wonder did our school and IHLs taught micro and macro economics to our students in Singapore?

The economic grounding of our people seems to be very weak.

And most discussion are layman and can't see the economic perspective.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:52 PM]

I noticed this situation not only in this REACH group but also other REACH group, focus groups and social media.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 2:56 PM]

Nope. Unless you go JC or you take finance related course in poly

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:56 PM]

No wonder.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 2:57 PM]

That's why I have no knowledge of economics

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 2:58 PM]

Or you take poa in secondary school

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 2:59 PM]

Hmm I see.

Otherwise today's topic is not a big hoo ha if people are trained in economics.

This are macroeconomics and people can appreciate why income are reaching its saturation point as a nationalisation company.

The next step is to corporatise, merge or go acquisition as a natural step.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:01 PM]

Singapore government and civil services very strong in macroeconomics and financial management.

That's why we do so well financially and economically.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 3:02 PM]

But they are not really training everyone with basic knowledge of economics

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:04 PM]

In fact many arguments about nationalisation, low price etc won't surface in a macroeconomics class - because once the economic graphs and charts are produced, the economic return, growth etc - already point to Law of Diminishing returns.

The natural conclusion is what income are doing today.

In fact, the arguments against it will fall flat in the economic class.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:06 PM]

From increasing return to Diminishing returns to negative returns.

If income still continues on its old path.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:08 PM]

I think those economic professors will be laughing at our arguments here coming from the lay person.

Call economic fundamental traitor some more.

Economic professors will give those who suggest a big fat "fail" if they submit their arguments as a economic thesis or dissertation.

Like 外行人教內行人。

Some more 义正言辞。

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 3:11 PM]

Poa is not compulsory in secondary school. And when they go higher institutions it is more specialised and some will not learn economics

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:12 PM]

In income situation, it has already reaches its maximum yield - and can no longer grow further if its underlying corporate structure don't change.

The only way is to go down and achieve a negative returns from increasing return and diminishing returns.

This is microeconomics.

Macroeconomics is to corporatise, merge and go acquisition.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:13 PM]

Hmm...

I feel government should consider more cross discipline for JC, poly and universities.

Adam, [25/7/2024 3:17 PM]

If it is the natural outcome for income to grow and get acquired, what happens to the concerns mentioned in the article that worries it would "undermine Income's social mission to maximize social impact over profits" should income still be marketed as a social enterprise?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:23 PM]

I understand where you're coming from.

Let the Minister address the social missions and social perspectives.

As for market principles and economic fundamental, income current move is financially and economically correct.

This is where I am coming from.

If financially and economically is not position right, income cannot fulfil its social missions.

Because it has now reach its saturation point.

Law of Diminishing returns sets in.

From increasing return, it has now reach diminishing returns.

If income still don't restructure, next we will be seeing income plunging downward into negative returns.

We won't be able to see lower premiums, we won't be able to see income becoming profitable.

We may soon see income going down under and close shop.

Then those who suggest income going on the old way - is in fact a big traitor - pulling every Singaporeans down with it.

This is what I mean.

Adam, [25/7/2024 3:24 PM]

Perhaps Reach needs to reopen chat after minister address then

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:26 PM]

Blind nationalism, blind loyalty, 执着，放不下 - may not necessary be a good thing.

We must possess the wisdom to be able to be insightful - and do the right thing economically and financially supportable.

Blind faith won't help.

Bull neck also won't help. 死牛一片颈 won't help.

Unhelpful label - traitor won't help.

Only pragmatism and wisdom will help.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 3:27 PM]

I agree.

REACH Singapore, [25/7/2024 4:00 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

Ginie/Komal ZENDORA J, [25/7/2024 4:05 PM]

Too many policies very confusing

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 4:33 PM]

Income will still provide affordable insurance for lower-income customers after Allianz deal: NTUC Enterprise chairman - CNA

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/income-insurance-allianz-majority-stake-bid-affordable-lower-income-4500661

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 4:34 PM]

Ay.

I can delete my chat here.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 4:35 PM]

Deleted

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:12 PM]

He reiterated that it would continue to take part in national insurance programmes in partnership with the CPF Board.

Bringing in a "global player with proven insurance and asset management capabilities" would help Income "compete more effectively", Mr Lim said.

Income Insurance’s life insurance market share has been less than 10 per cent in the past 10 years," he added.

"Allianz’s offer to be a majority shareholder will enable Income Insurance to be even more relevant and resilient over the long term, to serve families in Singapore, and fulfil its obligations to its policyholders.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:13 PM]

This new article summaries what I say here.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:17 PM]

Over the years, the Singapore labour movement has provided Income with capital for its business. 

Mr Lim cited an injection of funds by NTUC Enterprise in 2020 to support the co-op's solvency at the peak of the COVID-19 pandemic, when its capital buffers came under pressure.

Insurance is a capital-intensive business and to grow, there is a need to tap the capital markets," said Mr Lim.

"The strength of Allianz’s financial position will provide additional support to Income Insurance where required."

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:24 PM]

See income has reached a saturation point.

Can no longer have easy access to financial market to source liquidity.

Hence its growth will be retarded - as Law of Diminishing returns sets in.

If corporatisation don't take place, if additional source of funds and liquidity don't come in, income will lose its market share in the insurance space and being crowded out from the insurance industry.

To stay in business, income will have to price at a lower price, eating into profitability and if turn into loss - will go under.

Then how to achieve its social missions?

Blind nationalism don't helps.

Because it is all about economics.

Don't even have to look at the news article - anyone with some economic knowledge can already predict the outcome.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:27 PM]

If income go under without restructuring, then everyone's insurance policies will be gone.

冬过水。

Then who will be the traitor?

Income, the government or those who self declare as blind nationalist Smart Alec?

G, [25/7/2024 5:36 PM]

I see.. so in your eyes, what's above everything else in a country's health is only economic. Not sovereignty. Not the ability to defend itself and its interests. 

Running a country is so much more than just economics. There are many many more intangibles that your academic macro micro economics will never be able to quantify but will have long last adverse impacts on the country when wrong decisions are made. 

So for you, as long as it makes "economic sense" anything is justifiable, including selling out your own country 👍

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:37 PM]

Oh you can fly the flag as nationalist.

Beat your chest and shout or-yee-or.

I will cheer for you.

But when you turn around, no one behind you.

G, [25/7/2024 5:38 PM]

Ok sellout

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:40 PM]

That's why I don't have to convince you.

I only need to convince the majority.

Because 愚人不可度。

只度有缘人。

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:41 PM]

Hey yo don't personal attack

G, [25/7/2024 5:42 PM]

😂 means u are admitting that your position of selling out the country is an unfavourable one. 

Have fun trying to convince people they should go ahead and support selling out the country because you have superior academics in economics

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:43 PM]

Anyway we got 100+ peeps here but so far for this few topics not many people participate

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:43 PM]

Weird...

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:44 PM]

It's always LCL dominates the chat haha 😆

G, [25/7/2024 5:44 PM]

Still doesn't justify why Allianz gets a 51% share in the deal

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:44 PM]

Good, that means people are not convince this is a sell out, a traitorous act.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:45 PM]

Oh I prefer more sensible people doing the talking so that I can shake legs more.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:45 PM]

What I am concerned is are they actually proficient in using telegram

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:46 PM]

Same as WhatsApp.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:46 PM]

Whatsapp have way more people talking

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:46 PM]

In my previous WhatsApp Chat group, there are more sensible people talking, I argue less and agrees more.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:46 PM]

Which it's more interesting to hear different views

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:47 PM]

And photos is allowed in group chat. It's just more interesting

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:48 PM]

I feel this is better.

But here I see very radical and wrong views propagated.

Since no one coming out to correct the wrong views, I have to do the dirty job.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:49 PM]

To me there's no such thing as wrong views. They are just natural views comes from different levels of society. This is to give govt a sensing how different levels of society thinks

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:51 PM]

Hmm..

Maybe.

But if the views are pushing Singapore into a wrong way that is detrimental to us (means all Singaporeans) - I will have to put my views across.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:52 PM]

How do you determine that it is in the wrong way?

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:52 PM]

Well all my arguments here justified if to do otherwise, income will be less and less well off.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:52 PM]

The gov have their own ideas and we are just discussing and giving them new ideas and how frustrated we are towards certain policies

G, [25/7/2024 5:53 PM]

Yes this group is just LCL monologuing 90% of the time and presenting only 1 view which is 99% of the time incredibly favourable of this PAP govt.

If REACH does some low level data mining from this group, it may appear that this group is overly supportive of whatever the PAP govt is doing. 

Other times, LCL provides lectures on topics that no one asks for. 

A far cry from my previous WhatsApp group that has many people with very diverse views.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:53 PM]

/stat@combot

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:53 PM]

Maybe.

Let the government present their views.

But what I say here without looking at the news article - coincide.

NTUC income views are identical to mine.

Combot, [25/7/2024 5:53 PM]

Total messages:617

G, [25/7/2024 5:54 PM]

How elitist to think only your view is the correct one and anything contrary is wrong, and that it is your place to need to "correct" the contrary views

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:55 PM]

Is this malware or something we can click on?

Don't want APK files download into our device with malware.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:55 PM]

Just type/ stat

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:55 PM]

You will get this message

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:56 PM]

Hahaha.

I not eager to try in case kenna malware.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:56 PM]

Unfortunately this is just a private group that there's no data for viewing

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:57 PM]

But this shows the total messages over a few days

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:57 PM]

I just checked my apk files - nothing there.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:57 PM]

Whose messages are there?

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:58 PM]

Which is kind of less as on average 1 people send less than 6 messages per person

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:58 PM]

Whoever chat here

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:58 PM]

You mean this chat group?

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:58 PM]

Yup

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 5:58 PM]

Oh I see.

So I guess I champion?

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:59 PM]

Idk they don't show who chat the most as this is a private group

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 5:59 PM]

I think so

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:01 PM]

Hahaha.

Like what I say, I miss some of my members in my previous chat group who contributed quite alot in the topics of the day.

Not all our views are identical, but we can agree to disagree.

Also they are less radical, more sensible and more rational.

Also they can appreciate good reasonings and argument.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:02 PM]

Of course I am not always the champion there.

Because when I see good discussion come out, I argue less and shake legs more.

I don't enjoy being a champion by the way.

REACH Singapore, [25/7/2024 6:05 PM]

📢 Topic 📢

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:24 PM]

Normally I think the government won't do something to rock the boat if nothing go wrong.

But quite evidently, for income case, the trajectory is that something will definitely go wrong if nothing is done.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:32 PM]

And I do have long term policies with NTUC income - and I don't want it to go wrong.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:42 PM]

I only have medishield if anything goes wrong might as well change to another company

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:43 PM]

Unless you buy some endowment related policies

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:44 PM]

Well what I am doing here is to protect my interest and all Singaporeans interest.

Else I won't argue until like that.

I enjoy shaking legs, looking at people discussion, state my viewpoints.

Involve in less argument - I will enjoy more.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:44 PM]

Yes I got.

REACH Singapore, [25/7/2024 6:45 PM]

Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:45 PM]

Many of my relatives and friends also got.

I also represent their views in my private chat groups.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:48 PM]

In fact I did raise some of my viewpoints here to my insurance agents.

People can sense something is wrong and need to do something.

I was in fact quite relieved when I saw the email send to me by income - that they want to merge with Allianz.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:49 PM]

I represent that people will not affect much by the transition. I just feel that as a national enterprise that transit to an overseas owner it is quite sad. As ntuc is like a local brand, home grown. The feeling as a home brand will fade after transition

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:50 PM]

I know the sentiment.

Initially I feel the same.

But after I look into it in detail, I changed my mind.

Because the data and the numbers don't lie.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:51 PM]

The first reaction is like can meh I thought NTUC is a significant political person that was discussed few days ago. 

2nd reaction is what I commented above

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:52 PM]

Oh I look at the PSP very carefully.

It only apply to NTUC union and not income.

That's why I know PSP don't apply to income.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:53 PM]

Because not many people can differentiate different ntuc

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:53 PM]

From the supermarket to insurance and workforce etc

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:54 PM]

They see NTUC as 1 company 1 organisation

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:55 PM]

But like what I say, I am as nationalist and as sentiment as you in our national brand.

I am equally proud.

But I am also a pragmatic.

When I look at the numbers - I know income are in danger.

That means policyholders are in danger.

Then no choice, I got to stand up, do the dirty job and argue to support it.

I know people will throw shit at me.

I am prepared for it.

But I won't flinch, if it is the right thing to do.

Like what I say, I am pro-Singapore.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:58 PM]

Then my 3rd reaction why go fully to let other people take over. What is the terms and conditions behind that it must let foreign entity take over. As they say it is a partnership? How would they be in control to safeguard the interest of policy owners. What check and balance to safeguard policies.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:58 PM]

Too short a time to answer.

Let minister do the job to answer in parliament.

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:59 PM]

Yeah but this is the question we should ask here so gov knows what questions we have

Jun Ming, [25/7/2024 6:59 PM]

I pretty sure you would also have questions to ask too right

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 6:59 PM]

I think closing already though I will like to answer.

LCL (Danny 心), [25/7/2024 7:00 PM]

Let minister answer.

REACH Singapore, [25/7/2024 7:02 PM]

Dear Contributors

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our Telegram chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

======