REACH 511 - What are your views on the motion on cost of living? How have you and those around you been impacted, and are there enough support measures to cushion the impact of rising cost of living? 

(SK)

08 Nov 2023 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

8/11/23, 9:46 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

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8/11/23, 10:00 am - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

On Tuesday, Parliament debated a motion on the cost of living. "The Government hears you and understands your worries,” said Senior Minister of State for Finance Chee Hong Tat. “That’s why we have been doing more to support Singaporeans to cushion the impact of rising prices. We review our support regularly and step in to enhance it where necessary to provide additional support, especially for lower- and middle- income families.”

💬 *What are your views on the motion on cost of living? How have you and those around you been impacted, and are there enough support measures to cushion the impact of rising cost of living ?* 

Inflation has peaked and is on a broad moderating path. On top of imported inflation, Singapore is also facing rising domestic costs with a tight labour market, low levels of unemployment and rising real wages for workers across the board.

“Fortunately, the impact of GST increase is one-off. It should not cause an ongoing increase in the CPI (Consumer Price Index) in future years.” 

But the Government remains cautious because the global situation is uncertain, adding that further shocks to global energy and food prices could bring additional inflationary pressures and economic slowdown.

📌 _*Efforts by the Government*_

The Government has cushioned the impact of global inflation with a multi-pronged approach, with MAS also helping by strengthening the Singapore dollar.

Singapore also keeps its economy competitive to create good jobs and sustain real income growth for Singaporeans, he continued, noting that median real income grew by 1.8 per cent per year between 2017 and 2022. 

The Government also ensures that basic needs like education, healthcare housing and public transport remain accessible and affordable for all.

“Everyone receives some help in these areas, but those with less receive more support. It is a fair and progressive system.”

📌 _*Support Measures*_

This includes means-tested U-Save utility rebates, the GST Voucher scheme and the Assurance Package, meant to offset the goods and services tax (GST) rate increase. The package has been enhanced twice since it was launched in 2022. The Government will continue to monitor trends closely and is prepared to do more to support Singaporeans should it become necessary, said SMS Chee.

MP Desmond Choo, who is also the assistant secretary-general of the NTUC trade union, added that FairPrice Group’s Pioneer Generation, Merdeka Generation and CHAS Blue discount schemes have brought about S$65.5 million worth of savings since 2015.

👉 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/house-debates-proposals-to-ease-cost-of-living-pressures-govt-stresses-it-will-do-more-if-needed 

👉 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/cost-living-motion-wp-parliament-amendments-pap-3903981

8/11/23, 10:00 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow all participants to send messages to this group

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8/11/23, 10:08 am - +Rama: Chas cards with lower and low subsidies needed to be top up

8/11/23, 10:10 am - +Telephone number: Agreed!

8/11/23, 10:12 am - +Frankie Wee: Government stress coming 2024 more rising price level and cost of living affected Singapore 🤦

8/11/23, 10:13 am - +Frankie Wee: price rising plus GST 9%

8/11/23, 10:15 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: >“Fortunately, the impact of GST increase is one-off. It should not cause an ongoing increase in the CPI (Consumer Price Index) in future years.” 

This is the kind of thinking that cause jokes to be made of our government. eg: give one drum stick, take whole chicken.

GST increase is a permanent increase.  A burden that has to be shouldered for all time.  All those GST vouchers etc are one time events.  People's salaries don't go up and stay up permanently.  After a couple of years, comes retirement.  How does the gov support help retirees who need to figure out their stream of passive income?  When world economy is hit, passive income goes down as well.

Secondly, the contents of the current CPI doesn't reflect the real cost of living in Singapore.  It should be upgraded to measure things that people use: water, electricity, transport, eggs, rice, fruits, vegetables.

If gov is serious, they should stop GST increase for the time being.  A 1% increase translate to 20% increase in real terms as vendors take the opportunity to jack up their prices as well parroting gov reasons for doing so.

8/11/23, 10:16 am - +KL: Use our sg tax revenue to strengthen currency but import more worker due to stronger currencies to displace local :) what a werid policies . Say fight inflation but where the inflation import from food or housing or investment ? Only say the real Income grow 1.8% is local family or non local family ?

8/11/23, 10:16 am - +KL: I thgt yesterday news say our real income is negative 4.5% ?

8/11/23, 10:16 am - +Rama: Exactly

8/11/23, 10:16 am - +Rama: Hugh!?

8/11/23, 10:17 am - +Frankie Wee: Balance level inflation vs cost of living. But I don’t know what is price level for 1.8%? Example I bought crack snack was $2 now $3 next years going up and up?

8/11/23, 10:18 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: Within 12+ months, price of eggs jump from $3.50 to $7.80

8/11/23, 10:18 am - +Frankie Wee: I think mean economy pressure keep on competitive markets

8/11/23, 10:19 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: The only thing good about our stronger currency is for us to start living outside of Singapore.

8/11/23, 10:19 am - +Frankie Wee: Government stress is it enough for reserve Singapore future?

8/11/23, 10:21 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: It's a fine line to draw which I also don't have answers to.  It is important to have reserves for the future. But if the current people all die, there's also no future.

8/11/23, 10:22 am - +Frankie Wee: Minister salary cut push to GDP upper and save more reserve

8/11/23, 10:23 am - +Card: What !!!

8/11/23, 10:23 am - +Rama: Yes

8/11/23, 10:23 am - +Rama: 📸 Watch this video on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/share/v/W4EX4cvbZNyc3mUV/?mibextid=VswTDb

8/11/23, 10:24 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: i don't mind them getting their high salaries if they are able to lift the whole nation up.  A work man is worth their wages.  But making silly remarks like "GST increase is one off" 🙄

8/11/23, 10:25 am - +Rama: They should be subject to PWM just like the common man.

8/11/23, 10:26 am - +Frankie Wee: Government can’t read the future even they tender GST 9% enough then didn’t expect would come out cost of living is high than GST

8/11/23, 10:27 am - +Frankie Wee: Mean that GST 9% is not enough on budget day

8/11/23, 10:29 am - +Rama: Prepare for 10% GST after GE25

8/11/23, 10:30 am - +Frankie Wee: Yes possible

8/11/23, 10:33 am - +Rama: Expected 12% after GE26/27 .

8/11/23, 10:37 am - +Timothy Low: Agree that the increase of GST to 9% should be delayed for the time being, in view of the rising cost of living. Government should not be contributing to this problem

8/11/23, 10:38 am - +Frankie Wee: Govt want help more people low income those who earn $1.8k not enough and need help. But GST continues to rising

8/11/23, 10:41 am - +Rama: Government arguments is the subsidies are available to cushion.

8/11/23, 10:41 am - +Rama: They should earn at leastsgd2.5k

8/11/23, 10:54 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: Regarding CPI, I stand corrected.

https://www.singstat.gov.sg/-/media/files/news/cpisep23.ashx

They do include all the things that I mentioned.

Individual increase seems little, but when everything is added up, it becomes a heavy burden.

Reminds me when I was in school, each subject teacher say that they only give 1 or 2 pieces of homework to do.  7 subjects later, all free time spent doing homework.

8/11/23, 1:22 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. I will like to look at this cost of living topic at 2 levels:-

a. Micro-Economic level

b. Macro-Economic level

and how they impact us.

8/11/23, 1:44 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

*Micro-Economic level*

1. Honestly speaking, this current covid and post-covid pandemic, geopolitical tussle, impact of global warming and far-reaching regional wars --- have trigger an unprecedented runaway inflation rate - that far outrun our income growth - and even though it has come down from its peak, it still hover around 3 to 4% - and projected that it will come down to 2.5 to 3% come 2024.

But it is still higher than the inflation rate norm below 2.5% that we are accustomed to.

2. At personal level, the micro-economic level, the current inflation rate is indeed a pain to many household and individuals - not only to lower income and middle income group but also the upper income group - because the inflation cut across all economic goods and services (including luxurious goods) while imparing some income sources (eg. equities, big tech, etc) that reduce the wealth of upper income group.

3. Notably, the following essential needs that impact individuals and household go directly into the pockets of all income groups on a daily, weekly and monthly basis - unnerving the nerves of every individuals :--

a. Cooked foods - in hawker centres, coffeeshops, food courts, f&b, restaurants - prices are phenomena.

Last time, $3, $3.50 hawker centres and coffeeshops - individuals will get a decent meal. But now $4.50, $5, $6 and higher is a norm.

Multiply that by the number of family members in weekend (tabao) - a very big price jump for a household -- 50% to 100% price hike in food prices.

This cooked food items - is the biggest complain - as the lower and middle income groups very badly affected --- as people who work need to eat outside. Weekend meals whereby families don't cook - also a big burden to the household with such hefty jump in the very basic necessities --- FOOD.

8/11/23, 1:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

b. Electricity and water prices, transport cost

- Electricity, water is another basic necessities and we need to use it everyday. 

- Despite keeping a close watch on their usage, electricity prices increase by 50% baseline against pre-pandemic open market electricity price plan upon contract end.

- Water prices also annouce increase in price recently.

- The same go for public transport price - which recently announce a price hike.

All these are again basic essentials that are used by individuals and households everyday, and transport are used by people who need to work, go schools and do business.

8/11/23, 2:00 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

8/11/23, 2:09 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

c. Healthcare cost

- Next come the healthcare cost, whereby if family have members (eg. elderly, disable) who need regular or frequent medical appointment and collect medication - the price increases in medication and consultation do impact the household pocket.

- When specialist attention in hospital are needed - the price increase can come to a hefty sum.

d. Electrical appliances and devices, shopping goods, luxurious goods, cars, travel etc

- These items, many non-essentials - will not become a main feature in lower and middle income group - out-of-pocket expense.

- As basic essential price hike, more income and savings are diverted to spend on basic essentials - and hence less focus are spend on these non-essential items.

- Hence, how the prices of these non-essential items move - is less critical for discussion.

8/11/23, 2:36 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

*Macro-Economic level*

1. Looking at the micro-economic aspect of individuals and household burden on the high inflation - we also need to look at the macro-economic intervention by the Government - on what measures are introduced to help Singaporeans cope with the current unprecedented high inflation.

_GST voucher and COL voucher_

1. Notably, the series of GST voucher and COL voucher - are the most direct cash payout to each individual and household to help every Singaporeans and household cope with all the price hike mention above.

2. Working through the COL calculator, taking the current imported price inflation + the 1% GST hike to 8% GST for this year, objectively :-

a. For Year 2023, my household and combined individual cash payout received is $6,120.

Year 2024 - $4,870

Year 2025 - $4,270

Year 2026 - $2,625

Year 2027 - $2,210

3. Honestly, in year 2023, my overall inflation or price hike is 9.82% from pre-pandemic.

4. For year 2023, the $6,120 fully cover my 9.82% inflation rate - and even have some saving.

5. For year 2024, not taking into account another GST hike of another 1% to 8%, it cover about 85% of my 9.82% inflation rate.

6. For year 2025, not taking into account another GST hike of another 1% to 8%, it cover about 80 to 83% of my 9.82% inflation rate.

7. Year 2026 to 2027 - barely cover 40% of my 9.82% inflation rate.

8. Hence, speaking honestly, I sustain no loss from the inflation + GST hike of 1% to 8% GST in 2023.

9. And I suffer little loss, come 2024 inflation, unless GST increase by another 1% to GST 9%.

But understand that the Minister of Finance are working to come out with another set of GST voucher to help Singaporeans cope with the additional GST hike of 1% to GST 9%.

10. Hence, I conclude that, let us wait for the announcement of the 2024 Fiscal Budget to see what additional financial help is announced for 2024 and beyond.

11. Based on my computation, year 2023 inflation and GST hike - no worries - in fact I got saving.

As for year 2024 and 2025 - don't seems to be a big problem yet - as the already announced GST voucher and COL voucher - have covered more than 80% of my inflation rate of 9.82% not including another GST hike of 1% in 2024.

12. I also do a quick computation for low income group - 1 room flat, those living in condo and those living in landed properties --- I noticed that all income level received quite generous financial help from the GST voucher and COL voucher.

Low and middle income groups received the most help for individuals and the household.

Even high income with dependencies like elderlies - also receive generous financial help.

13. So in macro level, for year 2023, 2024 and 2025 - the amount of financial help do help to cushion the inflation hike and the 2023 1% GST hike to GST 8%.

14. But come year 2024, with another 1% GST hike, the impact is not covered yet. And hopefully, we can hear good news from the Minister of Finance come year 2024.

8/11/23, 2:58 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

My only concern is :--

1. Will inflation at domestic level come down beyond 2024 - as food price, transport, healthcare, water prices, town council charges - once increase will be entrenched and will rarely come down.

2. Likewise, GST rate once increase to 9% will also be entrenched and will not come down.

3. This means, Singaporeans and residents will be entrenched, operate and live at a higher cost-of-livings come year 2024 and beyond -- whereby all prices of essential goods and services will hover and entrench at the current high price.

4. It means, Singaporeans and residents need higher income, higher salaries for working people to sustain the high cost of living - to ensure that expenses can be covered, standard of living can be sustained and savings for retirement will not be depleted (as higher savings will be needed to cope with the inflation).

5. Singaporeans and residents who are not working such as retirees, caregivers, school children, babies, homemakers, disabled - will be the most impacted - as they have to depend on passive income and savings to sustain the higher cost-of-living for essential goods and services.

6. The questions is - will Government have the fiscal budget to sustain the financial help to cater to all the income groups come year 2024 and beyond?

7. And how Government help every working individuals to improve their salaries and income to ensure the standard of living will be maintained and not let higher cost of living eat into our savings for retirement.

8. Government also need ways to help those unable to work for various reason to cope with the higher cost of living.

8/11/23, 3:09 pm - +Smiley face: 8 November, 2023

"Inflation is the number one enemy"

Money not enough?

Minimal help or overlapping or under serving?

The number one enemy of the poor and the underprivileged is inflation.

8/11/23, 3:10 pm - +Frankie Wee: Try to ease costs affective

8/11/23, 3:11 pm - +Smiley face: Through interventions such as govt Subsidies on essential goods such as food from rice, meats, vegetables and milk/milk powder.

The next is to identify the clusters of people to give to, meaningfully.

8/11/23, 3:12 pm - +Smiley face: More than 70% of households will afford and are able to fight this common enemy, inflation!

8/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Rama: I hope so

8/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Smiley face: It will be a prolonged war against this stubborn enemy!

8/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Rama: Yes

8/11/23, 3:13 pm - +Smiley face: Sure, based on data!

8/11/23, 3:14 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

_Take on additional GST hike by another 1% to GST 9%_

1. My take on additional GST hike by another 1% in 2024 - is to proceed with the GST hike.

2. There is no reason to hold back the hike, because the tax structure needs to be sustainable - as many government expenditure are planned for - taking into account the additional GST 9% as one of the government income source.

3. Else the essential government expenditure will go haywire - if the GST hike that have been planned for is delay come 2024.

4. I will support additional GST voucher and COL voucher to cushion the GST hike come 2024 and beyond, the reasons being:-

a. The GST hike will only hit the big spenders - notably the ultra rich and the very rich - that can afford to spend on big ticket items such as houses, luxurious goods and services, yacht, expensive cars, etc - where Government can collect a hefty GST revenue from these wealthy spenders who are earning good income.

b. The GST hike to GST 9% will hardly impact low, income and even some upper income groups - as the GST voucher and COL voucher will negate and neutralise not only the GST hike but also cover the inflation --- based on the computation in 2023, and a good 80% or more in 2024 and 2025.

This is not taking into account a likely additional GST and COL voucher to be announced in Year 2024 Budget.

c. I only concern what happen after year 2025?

Will our Government fiscal budget be able to continue to sustain such payout after year 2025 to help the various income groups - lower, middle and upper income groups?

8/11/23, 3:18 pm - +Smiley face: <Media omitted>

8/11/23, 3:26 pm - +Smiley face: Securing jobs and creating jobs both are counter inflationary measures and buffering any economic disruptions.

Jobs retrenchment will be more prevalent into 2024-25.

8/11/23, 4:01 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

My close friend comments:-

Prices will not come down. 

So the discussion should focus on people living below subsistence levels and those at risk of falling below the line. 

I really mean subsistence levels not about discussing whether one needs his perfume and jewellery.

Plus how to have enough for retirement

8/11/23, 4:04 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

8/11/23, 4:18 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Another thing is, I disagree with WP approach to keeping the cost-of-living down - because it look good on paper (a populist approach in its optics to make people happy) but it will cause fiscal budget sustainability problem.

2. By meddling with the tax structure (that is, meddling with the revenue system that impact the revenue source) - it will jack up the cost of revenue collection, cause uncertainty in revenue amount earn and reduce the final revenue collection to finance government expenditure and financial grants (eg. GST voucher and COL voucher) to help each income groups - lower, middle and upper income groups.

3. Eg. WP proposed tier pricing of utilities, nationalisation of transport :-

a. Tiered pricing of electricity

- Lower, middle income group don't use alot of electricity in their 1 room to 5 room flat.

- The biggest electricity users are business, upper income group that switch on aircon, bigger houses.

- By implementing tiered electricity come with the following problems :-

i. The tracking electricity usage in peak, off peak, charges for the various tiers become complex and cumbersome to manage - and translated to higher cost, more errors and billing become very complex. 

Thus revenue collection for the government - will go down with the unnecessary high cost of administration.

ii. The higher revenue collection come from business and rich income group - but tier pricing will favour them - and reduce revenue collection for the government.

iii. Encouraging individual, household and business users to be prudent in electricity usage - should be a separate exercise - immaterial to the cumbersome tier pricing - that cause more problems than its benefits.

Regardless of peak or off-peak - if possible, users are encourage to be prudent in electricity usage - and the cost of electricity bill will push users to be prudent - without the unmanageable and cumbersome tiered pricing.

b. Tiered water pricing

- The same argument above applies to Tiered water pricing.

4. Similar to business, no businessman or owner of the right mind to meddle with their customers and revenue sources - and make their sales and revenue difficult to collect and compute.

It will cause the business to make loss and lose their customers.

5. Only after the Government and Business collected their revenue - at the end of the year or fiscal budget, how much to help the people in terms of GST voucher or COL voucher or for business, how much salaries increment or bonus to pay their workers.

6. WP propose meddling of the tax structure and revenue source - is a sure way to make Singapore fiscal budget unsustainable - and go along the less successful Countries - in to using debt to finance the government expenditure.

Likewise, no boss or business owners will mess around with the sales and revenue sources - by paying upfront high salaries and bonus without even knowing whether they make profit at the end of the year - and mass retrenchment will be the end of the day.

8/11/23, 4:21 pm - +Rama: I hope the electorate is not stupid to buy their nonsense at every election

8/11/23, 4:26 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Another aspect that I disagree with WP proposal to nationalise the public transport --- is as good as saying, use taxpayers money to finance the day-to-day running of the public transport --- like the old communist countries way of State run enterprises of financing public goods and services.

2. Many Communist countries have already move away from nationalising the public goods and services eg. China, Vietnam and other East European countries - because it is inefficient and taxpayers money got to finance the inefficient way of running the public transport.

3. In addition, enterprise cannot go overseas to bid for foreign business such as the comfort delgro, SMRT, etc to earn foreign revenue if public transport is state run.

4. After collecting tax revenue and then subsidise the transport expenditure like what the current government is doing make more sense - without :-

a. tie down with day-to-day running of public transport which is inefficient.

b. use taxpayer money to run the public transport business

c. losing the foreign revenue - as state enterprise cannot bid for overseas public transport tender.

8/11/23, 4:37 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

I am very sure of one thing, if WP ever become the government:-

1. Government will run into debts.

2. Our reserves will be depleted.

3. Economy performance will go down.

Because many of their proposed policies are mistakes make by many countries that cause their countries to go into debts, inefficiencies and job doldrums.

8/11/23, 4:38 pm - +Uncle Law: Gov should pay attention at merchants who may take advantage of situations to raise price, citing increasing costs, which may not be in the first place.

8/11/23, 4:39 pm - +Coconut Tree: This I would disagree.

Nothing wrong with Nationalizing basic goods such as Water, Electricity and Transport.

We already Nationalized housing.

Some things, the government doesn't need to make money from.

Rent/Relentless profit seeking behaviour of privatised services is not a good thing.

8/11/23, 4:39 pm - +Frankie Wee: Wise vote to be minister big money spent mistake lend into debt

8/11/23, 4:41 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Yah, that is what communist countries did in nationalising many public goods and services like north Korea.

See what happens?

Why many communist countries have stopped nationalising their public goods and services?

8/11/23, 4:42 pm - +Coconut Tree: strawman arguement leh.

I can point to the same failure of privatised inefficient systems in the USA

8/11/23, 4:43 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Also HDB is the only nationalised products because government want to ensure everyone have a roof.

But more than $5 billion a year thrown in from taxpayers money.

Are you going to pay higher GST to pay for more public goods.

8/11/23, 4:44 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Where will the government get the money from if everything nationalised?

8/11/23, 4:44 pm - +Coconut Tree: You are assuming Publicly operated ultilites will be more expensive to run than Private

8/11/23, 4:44 pm - +Coconut Tree: given how lean our CS is, quite a bold assumption

8/11/23, 4:45 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Where you get the money from to nationalise - taxpayers money you know

8/11/23, 4:45 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

If not wp cough out the money to run nationalised good is it?

8/11/23, 4:47 pm - +Coconut Tree: Good point here. Can be slowly done. 

But hor - pls - I dun like the WP any more than you.

Just believe that not everything should be privatised.

The new law governing the appointment of key positions in sensitive positions is a good move. imho.

8/11/23, 4:47 pm - +Coconut Tree: Especially Things like powergen, water, transport.

8/11/23, 4:47 pm - +Uncle Law: agreed

8/11/23, 4:48 pm - +Coconut Tree: Power Distri/sales - sure. but not PowerGen.

8/11/23, 4:48 pm - +Frankie Wee: Think money is easy life bring new government when run politicians but things is more harder than thinker

8/11/23, 4:49 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Privatised means shareholders and investor money.

Nationalised means taxpayers money.

If nationalised where to get the money?

More GST, more income tax, use reserves?

8/11/23, 4:49 pm - +Coconut Tree: I think if the WP makes 10 areguments, I disagree with 9. This is 1 of the rare ones that makes a bit of sense.

8/11/23, 4:49 pm - +Frankie Wee: Learned from Malaysia hard life and retire bomb they are hard earning

8/11/23, 4:50 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

No it doesn't make sense.

1st address where to get the money to nationalise?

8/11/23, 4:50 pm - +Coconut Tree: Key assets should not be held outside the control of the country.

8/11/23, 4:50 pm - +Frankie Wee: Money come from our productive

8/11/23, 4:52 pm - +Coconut Tree: Slowly. Powergen quite Simple.

We are running into Nett power shortage.

Govt build new generators. Stop giving license for new operators.

After a while most gen capacity owned by PUB.

Money comes from selling power to grid and consumers. The same way the private sector does it.

8/11/23, 4:52 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Yes that will be our money, taxpayers money.

So it means we pay higher taxes to nationalise all the public goods?

8/11/23, 4:52 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Our stock exchange public companies are more than a trillion $.

Tax to get trillion dollars to nationalise?

8/11/23, 4:53 pm - +Coconut Tree: Water in SG is right now partly PPP. should still maintain this model.

8/11/23, 4:53 pm - +Coconut Tree: Transport is the tricky one. Not sure there.

8/11/23, 4:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

And then charge low feed to users 

Make loss, incur debt.

Bankrupt?

8/11/23, 4:53 pm - +Coconut Tree: But if you bother to think about it, power is easy.

8/11/23, 4:54 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

This is what happens to many state run companies in communist countries.

Now all privatised.

8/11/23, 4:54 pm - +Coconut Tree: Same strawman arguement leh.

Look at how expensive and shitty the private services are provided in the states first

8/11/23, 4:55 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

So you still haven't answer the question - where you get trillions of dollars to nationalise?

8/11/23, 4:55 pm - +Coconut Tree: I have enough faith in our CS that they can execute this properly

8/11/23, 4:55 pm - +Coconut Tree: this?

8/11/23, 4:55 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Who is this cs?

8/11/23, 4:55 pm - +Coconut Tree: Civil Service

8/11/23, 4:55 pm - +Frankie Wee: Govt want to redevelop the future in Asia economy whenever there is challenges

8/11/23, 4:56 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Civil service has come to the conclusion that nationalisation is the good thing to privatised since 1980s.

8/11/23, 4:56 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://www.straitstimes.com/business/more-companies-in-asia-including-s-pore-headed-for-bankruptcy-and-restructuring

8/11/23, 4:57 pm - +Coconut Tree: ,this is one of GCT's most fugged up idea ever

8/11/23, 4:58 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

The best idea ever.

Else Singapore won't be the richest per capita GDP in the world.

8/11/23, 4:59 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

"Taiwan ranks 12th in list of 'Top 20 Richest Countries'.

Insider Monkey includes Taiwan on list of richest countries based upon GDP per capita".

Singapore rank 1st.

 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/5031445#:~:text=Taiwan%20ranks%2012th%20in,upon%20GDP%20per%20capita

8/11/23, 4:59 pm - +Coconut Tree: Your logic is amazing as always

8/11/23, 4:59 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Oh yes certainly.

8/11/23, 4:59 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Because your logic will doom our country's future.

8/11/23, 5:00 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

And outcomes speak loudest then words

8/11/23, 5:00 pm - +Coconut Tree: wayn

8/11/23, 5:00 pm - +Coconut Tree: yawb

8/11/23, 5:00 pm - +Coconut Tree: yawn

8/11/23, 5:01 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Good that you yawn.

8/11/23, 5:01 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Must as well you join n Korea - everything nationalised.

8/11/23, 5:02 pm - +Coconut Tree: Go to the USA and see what a mess relentless pursuit of your logic makes a country lah

8/11/23, 5:02 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Vietnam economy fly - because they junk nationalisation and now they are best performing developing nation.

8/11/23, 5:02 pm - +Coconut Tree: HAHAHAHAHAHA

8/11/23, 5:02 pm - +Coconut Tree: ROFLOL

8/11/23, 5:03 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Oh Singapore per Capita GDP beat US.

Double fold. <This message was edited>

8/11/23, 5:03 pm - +Coconut Tree: vietnam's largest private sector company is a fraud. ARE YOU REALLY USING THEM AS AN EXAMPLE!

8/11/23, 5:03 pm - +Coconut Tree: OMFG

8/11/23, 5:03 pm - +Coconut Tree: HILARIOUS

8/11/23, 5:04 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

8/11/23, 5:04 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

You still evade the question, where do you get the trillion dollars to nationalise?

Taxpayers money?

8/11/23, 5:05 pm - +Coconut Tree: hello how many times you want me to point this to you?

8/11/23, 5:05 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

If you can't answer all your arguments fall apart.

8/11/23, 5:05 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Where the money?

8/11/23, 5:06 pm - +Coconut Tree: hwo difficult is it to issue like a bond to progressively build infrasture and pay it off using the sales proceeds of power?

do you really need this explained to you?

8/11/23, 5:07 pm - +Frankie Wee: Singapore dollars note who create this money come from? 

It’s history self made

8/11/23, 5:07 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Hahahaha..

You think investors stupid want to buy bonds that have no profit.

Issuing bonds is another way of saying using debt to finance.

8/11/23, 5:08 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

You are trying to fool people .

8/11/23, 5:09 pm - +Frankie Wee: How about would you like invest T-Bills or bond funds so you know where money from

8/11/23, 5:09 pm - +Coconut Tree: lol. it's really sad to be you

8/11/23, 5:10 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://www.ft.com/content/7dada684-a6cd-413b-9adb-477b34a7a9f6

8/11/23, 5:11 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Yes you are using debt to finance nationalisation.

And all future generations will inherit a big debt like US.

See US treasury bonds - the debt is too high, no investors is subscribing

8/11/23, 5:12 pm - +Frankie Wee: Because of FED wanted hike to repay US debt to feed

8/11/23, 5:12 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

You are trying to trick people to use debt to nationalise - and future generations pay their nose through.

So be very careful of what he say and what WP say.

8/11/23, 5:13 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

It is a debt trap that this chap and WP want us to fall into.

8/11/23, 5:14 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Else suddenly with nationalisation - we will inherit trillion of debts - to be paid by our future generations.

8/11/23, 5:15 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

8/11/23, 5:16 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

This is what US future generations got to pay $26.3 trillion debt - from bonds.

Be careful of such people and political party like WP.

8/11/23, 5:16 pm - +Joseph Yap: Rising cost of living arising from external factors such as rising fuel costs, supply chain issues or global shortage of food/ raw material are beyond our control. What we can work on is the rising cost of living arising from local asset inflation (eg. speculative forces that inflate commercial property prices which in turn translate into higher rental costs of commercial spaces), of which this will increase our price of daily expenses in coffeeshops, fruit stores, hair saloon and etc.

8/11/23, 5:17 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

8/11/23, 5:18 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

See nationalisation and state run enterprises - $47.5 trillion debt.

8/11/23, 5:19 pm - +Jerick: Definitely not trillions... Our country is not as big as the US. And it's just the public transport system that we're talking about. So just millions. 

And actually, Singapore might actually save money from its nationalisation, thru economies of scale

8/11/23, 5:19 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

You all want to see Singapore inherit trillion dollars debt just because you want nationalisation?

And it don't solve the cost of living problem?

Because we need to pay high tax to finance the debt?

It is kicking the problem down the road to future generations.

8/11/23, 5:19 pm - +jerick: Not trillions

8/11/23, 5:20 pm - +jerick: Just millions. And we might actually save money

8/11/23, 5:21 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

How much you build MRT, how much you build power plant, water plants - million $ really?

An sme already 5 to 10 millions.

8/11/23, 5:21 pm - +jerick: I think there's no point in us arguing about how much money will be spent or saved until we settle the figures

8/11/23, 5:21 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

How much HDB build houses? Millions really?

1 flat cost 1 million.

8/11/23, 5:21 pm - +Frankie Wee: US and China future economy will collapse more debt treasury

8/11/23, 5:22 pm - +Frankie Wee: Asia can’t lend more money

8/11/23, 5:22 pm - +jerick: Don't need to build new ones. Nationalize doesn't mean that we have to build everything from scratch

8/11/23, 5:22 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

A wrong macro economic policies - and financial policies - will make Singapore go bankrupt in no time.

8/11/23, 5:23 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Unless you are a minister or HDB ceo.

Unless you understand how to run a ministry or stat board.

Else I don't believe what you say.

8/11/23, 5:24 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Because we have been in thick of involving in the nationalisation and privatisation process - and we know exactly what is going on.

8/11/23, 5:25 pm - +Rama: Yes

8/11/23, 5:26 pm - +Rama: No choice but to pay

8/11/23, 5:27 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

In a many conversion exercise, we have gone through this.

All the arguments cannot stand water - domestically and overseas life examples prove nationalisation is a big mistake.

8/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Rama: 😳🤷‍♂️

8/11/23, 5:27 pm - +jerick: Singapore's budget for all ministries is only a few billion

8/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Frankie Wee: Will not know how long at least housing bubble or crisis when down price. Because keep the market very strong

8/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Frankie Wee: Policies will not change

8/11/23, 5:28 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Like what I say, unless you are directly involved in the exercise, I don't believe you.

8/11/23, 5:28 pm - +jerick: We don't need to be in these positions to do the math. Just research and calculate

8/11/23, 5:28 pm - +jerick: Info is available online

8/11/23, 5:29 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Oh yes the math, computations and all the past outcomes domestically as well as many examples overseas - draw the conclusion that nationalisation is a dead end.

8/11/23, 5:29 pm - +jerick: You're able to retrieve   info on US. Surely you can find info on Singapore

8/11/23, 5:29 pm - +jerick: Not necessary. Gotta take them case by case

8/11/23, 5:30 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

I think I want to stop debating this.

If you think is so good, why n Korea is the only country standing?

You can pick them as examples.

8/11/23, 5:31 pm - +jerick: Ok let's stop then🙏🏼

8/11/23, 5:31 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Oh yes, from telecoms, to MRT, to power, to IT, to banks like posb to DBS etc.

You can interview the exMinister and perm sec - to give you a lecture.

8/11/23, 5:32 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

If LKY is around, he will be a very good lecturer.

8/11/23, 5:32 pm - +Rama: Yes

8/11/23, 5:42 pm - +jerick: Btw, I'm not taking any sides @6597656103. Just wanted to iron out the details so that we can discuss more meaningfully. I think that regardless of who we're speaking with, whether LKY or our next-door neighbor, if their facts don't seem right, we should sound them out

8/11/23, 5:43 pm - +jerick: Only then can we arrive together at a good solution

8/11/23, 5:44 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Civil service, and Minister cabinet - from 1G to 4G study in detail and arrive at this conclusion.

Hence Singaporeans has the :-

1. Highest GDP per capita in the world.

2. One of the highest reserves in the World.

3. And a magnet of business hubs.

8/11/23, 5:45 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

"Goodbye HK, hello S’pore: More global firms shifting staff, operations despite city’s efforts to retain them".

 https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/more-global-firms-quietly-shifting-out-of-hong-kong-as-city-tries-to-lure-them-back#:~:text=Goodbye%20HK%2C%20hello%20S%E2%80%99pore%3A%20More%20global%20firms%20shifting%20staff%2C%20operations%20despite%20city%E2%80%99s%20efforts%20to%20retain%20them

8/11/23, 5:48 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

And I don't believe what WP say - go back to nationalisation - which is in our 1970s.

Our wealth has become the 1st in the world when we get all our economics right.

Definitely not what WP say - nationalisation, use bond debt to finance nationalisation?

8/11/23, 5:49 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Like asking the knowledge of 1970s telling a successful 2023 what to do - to go back to the old ways...

8/11/23, 5:49 pm - +Frankie Wee: WP thinks the way to help cheaper and affordable

8/11/23, 5:50 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Yah, but put us into debt.

8/11/23, 5:52 pm - +Frankie Wee: I have no clue with WP such the move toward the future can’t change. Let said 1990 is lowest level when LKY alive he know policies no change but everything developed is changed.

8/11/23, 5:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

We are on the right track.

Going backwards will make our future generations suffer.

8/11/23, 5:56 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

When the population is poor, government has to pool resources to nationalise.

But the moment everything is on track, nationalisation will drag down the economy and the earning of the people as tax needs to keep going up to finance the nationalisation.

Hence privatisation is the only way to go.

When government earn sufficient revenue, it can help people without the burden of high tax policy.

Also this will attract investors to invest, further boosting our economy. <This message was edited>

8/11/23, 5:58 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

High tax structure will push away investors who create jobs for the people.

Hence we cannot let nationalisation drag down our economy.

WP has no economy fundamental to formulate workable policies.

They will only fool people and cause problems down the road with their short sighted vision.

Sigh....

And we have so many gullible people around.

8/11/23, 6:00 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

8/11/23, 6:33 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Also all our GLCs go for the world market and bring us tremendous revenue that beef up our reserves in Temasek Holdings contributing to multiple billions of dollars to finance our fiscal budget in nirc.

Imagine all our GLCs nationalise to cater to our little tiny of 5.6 million people instead of the world 9 billion people.

Do you think Temasek revenue will fall into the million or make loss instead of multi billions earning?

In addition, government got to levy high tax to finance the nationalisation?

Or worst smart Alec say issue bonds - means debt to finance nationalisation.

Nationalising will bring us triple whammy - and from highest earning in the world - we drop into a poverty state.

8/11/23, 6:35 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

That is why I am fuming about this WP proposal.

It is populist.

It bring financial suffering to us.

It is short sighted to look good to win votes - but condemn our future generations to suffer.

It fool many gullible people - without economic fundamentals.

8/11/23, 6:35 pm - +Rama: We cannot nationalise like a communist country!

8/11/23, 6:36 pm - +Rama: Blady hopeless potential opposition party!

8/11/23, 6:36 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

I don't get angry for nothing.

But this WP proposal really make me angry.

8/11/23, 6:36 pm - +Rama: Agree

8/11/23, 6:37 pm - +Frankie Wee: Vote them out

8/11/23, 6:37 pm - +Rama: Give back their wards to the PAP.

8/11/23, 6:37 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

And even want to trap people into debts - issuing bonds wor.

Just look at US bond debt and China bond debt.

It is addictive and will kill our nation.

8/11/23, 6:39 pm - +Rama: Another moron is Lim Tean! Asking for similar move like in Malaysia to allow citizens to withdraw  their efforts during the three years of covid-19 and thereby draining rm145billion!

8/11/23, 6:43 pm - +Redzuan: Aiyoh must must have PAP n WP is this chat.  ??

8/11/23, 6:43 pm - +Frankie Wee: Malaysia own country EPF

Singapore is CPF

We can’t withdraw

8/11/23, 6:44 pm - +Frankie Wee: Malaysia suffer retire time bomb

8/11/23, 6:44 pm - +Redzuan: The generation ahead now is why this and  that?

8/11/23, 6:45 pm - +Redzuan: i believe the current govt has Data n statistics must answer these queries..

8/11/23, 6:45 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

⏰ We will be closing the chat in *15 minutes* ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

8/11/23, 6:51 pm - +Rama: Good move by government for our benefits in our old age

8/11/23, 6:59 pm - +Smiley face: 8 November, 2023

"Inflation is the number one enemy"

Money not enough? Minimal help or overlapping or under serving?

The number one enemy of the poor and the underprivileged is inflation.

Government agencies and specifically MSF, MOH, MPs with SSO, FSC and, NPOs all are helping the vulnerable households and individuals whether they are out of jobs, permanently disabled or young children, adults and seniors.

The essence of goodness is to first report & identify cases, second to classify the targeted areas of help and third to engage these individuals and households over a period of time to ensure services are provided for or services to be increased or decreased or ceased for whatsoever reasons feedback through social workers or NPOs  visitations and assessments of each actual case.

In summary, to simply say that our public and private initiatives are doing not enough and often enough members of the public tend to be emotional which is understandable to seek on behalf of society to query on the effectiveness and efficiency of our system of social well-being. It's never enough, these social services but one thing is sure that is helps are abundance and the next best thing is to enable early identifications of needy cases ahead of all miseries and sufferings. And that's a goodness of a caring society whereby no one is left alone to burden it all as a nation aged faster and the size and scale of social services and sufferings will naturally progress to a new high.

           - - in progress - -

8/11/23, 7:00 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

8/11/23, 7:00 pm - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow only admins to send messages to this group

===

REACH 510 - What are views on the findings of the Digital Society Report? How can we better promote safe use of digital services and promote greater adoption especially by seniors?

(SK)

06 Nov 2023 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

6/11/23, 9:46 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from *10am to 7pm* today. ⏰

*House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:* 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment.

4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.

5. Let’s protect each other’s privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

*Full set of Terms of Use:* https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

6/11/23, 9:58 am - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

The inaugural Singapore Digital Society Report, released on Saturday 4 Nov, found that more Singapore residents aged 60 and above own smartphones and are embracing digital tools to communicate, seek information and make payment. However, the report also found that many still lacked confidence in being able to identify scams and were not keen on embracing trying out new technologies. 

The Infocomm Media Development Authority (IMDA) said the Government will continue its efforts to empower people to embrace emerging technology and manage the risks that arise. It reiterated that the Government has a “digital first” but not “digital only” strategy, where essential services remain accessible through non-digital means for those unable to use digital channels.

💬 *What are views on the findings of the Digital Society Report? How can we better promote safe use of digital services and promote greater adoption especially by seniors?*

The report measured digital access, digital skills for daily living and attitudes towards digital technologies in Singapore. IMDA said initiatives such as the Seniors Go Digital programme have helped seniors improve their skills.

_Key findings from the report_

📌 *_Identifying scams_*

The report showed that while seniors are taking to digital tools, only 44 per cent are at least moderately confident in identifying scams on messaging platforms. IMDA said that this may deter seniors from going online and enjoying the benefits of digital technology.

📌 *_Internet access_*

Only 93 percent of seniors-only households have Internet access. IMDA said the 7 percentage point gap is due largely to seniors’ perceived lack of need, skills, knowledge and confidence to use the Internet.

📌 *_Embracing new technology_*

Among seniors, only 45 percent are willing to try new digital technologies such as voice recognition, virtual reality and augmented reality. Additionally, only about half of residents expressed willingness to accept the risks associated with technology use, such as the spread of misinformation and online scams.

👉https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/seniors-becoming-more-digitally-savvy-but-lack-confidence-in-spotting-scams-imda-report

6/11/23, 10:00 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed the group description

6/11/23, 10:00 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow all participants to send messages to this group

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6/11/23, 10:01 am - +Rama: What is the take up rate for seniors to attend a one day course for smart phone usage?

6/11/23, 10:12 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: one missing item i feel is a certification of the app that's being used by the public.  right now, there's an exuberent push for everything to be digitalise.  Each app developer has different skill levels with regards to security as their focus is mainly to get their app to work.  They may not consider UI consistency.  These developers then sell their services to vendors who trust that these developers have considered security in their applications.  As a result, some apps work in a certain way but yet another way in others, some are secured while others are not.  Very inconsistent and confusing to end users.

Take for example, Singpass authentication.  It first started out with government agencies.  Their 2 factor started with SMS.  Later there is an option to use either SMS or the app.  The API was then opened to private companies to use and the SMS option is not made available for those private companies; it's only available for government agencies.  Oldies who have used dump phones all their lives now try to enter insurance websites on their desktops; cannot login via Singpass.  Need to resort to insurance company's insecure passwords.

Now in a lot of restaurants, we now have to use our phones to scan a QR code which will encode table number with our order.  Once order is placed, they are sent to the kitchen.  At end of meal, we go to cashier to pay.  Pranksters can easily get hold of a QR code and start to place nonsense orders for any table and cause confusion at the kitchen.

If there is a central certifying body who can check that all public facing apps are checked properly, it would make the app's authentication, authorization, accounting aspects consistent and prevent inconsistencies/confusion and improve overall security.

6/11/23, 10:15 am - +Rama: Agree

6/11/23, 10:58 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors*

We want to *HEAR MORE* from you! 

💬 *What are views on the findings of the Digital Society Report? How can we better promote safe use of digital services and promote greater adoption especially by seniors?*

Megan 😊

6/11/23, 10:59 am - +Rama: Has the seniors digital ambassador programme had any success?

6/11/23, 11:37 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors*

We want to *HEAR MORE* from you! 

💬 *What are views on the findings of the Digital Society Report? How can we better promote safe use of digital services and promote greater adoption especially by seniors?*

Megan 😊

6/11/23, 12:07 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Police has issued an advisory on the malicious malware which when downloaded on your mobile for the GST vouchers will enable the app to access your bank accounts and withdraw the money 

https://www.police.gov.sg/Media-Room/News/20230811_police_advisory_on_fake_gst_voucher_application#:~:text=The%20GST%20Voucher%20mobile%20application,passwords%20stored%20in%20the%20device.

6/11/23, 12:15 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 12:20 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Scammers have too many tricks up their sleeves.

2. Not only elderly, but young informed professionals may also fall into the traps.

3. This message seems authentic.

A slip of the mind, will get trick.

4. It is spread through Whatsapp and Facebook.

5. Unless social media platform are held responsible or take greater responsibility to filter such malicious links - more Singaporeans or residents may fall into such traps.

6/11/23, 12:24 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Wonder why not use AI content filtering to sieve all social media that carry such messages - to do a more refine screenings, such as going through a few round scrutiny - with human testing the links if the links are safe before allowing such links to reach the recipients?

2. Else many unsuspecting recipients of such malicious links will get scam.

6/11/23, 12:28 pm - +~L: The main problem is that there is inadequate consumer protection. 

I can give a clear example.

The default option should be to prevent fraud. 

A friend's kid had a star hub mobile account and by default he was allowed to spend on the playstore and charge the mobile phone account. 

After several hundreds of dollars spent on video games the parent only knew after getting the mobile phone bill. After complaining to Starhub they said he had an option to turn off this setting (but by default it was on and never explained to him that it existed or he could turn it off). 

This is one example of many where companies want money spent through their services and they don't care if it's done via scam or not since there is no consequence to them. 

Consumer protection should come first.

6/11/23, 12:30 pm - +~L: Yes, Restaurant QR Code is another good example where it is so easily open to abuse. Some restaurants require payment up front, but it's just obvious that we need to be smarter and not leave silly backdoors open for people to abuse (either maliciously or for fun).

6/11/23, 12:32 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Banks should be mandated to implement as announced by MAS:-

a. Digital in, Physical out.

b. OOB authentication

2. Only then such scam will not be successful - because banks can identify the real identity of the bank customers and not let scammers steal away the innocent victims savings who have been tricked by the scammers malware. <This message was edited>

6/11/23, 12:34 pm - +Rama: OOB Authentication is

6/11/23, 12:35 pm - +~L: Having said all this - I remember going to Citibank to sign a document. They said my signature didn't match their records. After 3 failed attempts they ask me to sign multiple times on the paper so they could find one that did match. I had all my ID etc, so it really just required some common sense. Too often we follow the rules literally.

6/11/23, 12:36 pm - +Rama: 😳🤦‍♂️😞

6/11/23, 12:36 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Out of band authentication.

That's outside the loop of bank digital authentication that malware can trap.

Eg. Userid, password, digital token, SMS otp - all in one handphone digital authentication. <This message was edited>

6/11/23, 12:36 pm - +Rama: Thanks

6/11/23, 12:38 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

3. Also "money lock" mandated by MAS is useful - as scammers can't steal and transfer the money out digitally.

6/11/23, 12:39 pm - +Rama: Yes

6/11/23, 12:43 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Only when digital banking is properly safeguarded, will people including seniors regain confident to use more digital.

Else people live savings are in peril.

6/11/23, 12:44 pm - +Rama: Yes

6/11/23, 12:45 pm - +~L: This is the reality.

6/11/23, 12:59 pm - +Smiley face: 6 November, 2023

"The ABC and the Piggy Bank"

"Basic Instincts? The clouds of fearfulness are covering many people minds and doubts when dealing with anything that is unfamiliar to them. In this unavoidable digital generation, either you adapt and adopt the digital ways of transacting the daily needs or you will find that sooner than later you will have to learn it and just have to do it! And who are these doubtful folks? The elders, the vulnerables, and up to 10% of the population!"

- - anonymity

6/11/23, 1:04 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

My close friend comments: 

1. Eg, we get into the habit of scanning QR codes which can bring us to dark websites and malwares inadvertently installed. Everything is digitallised so we think it's ok to install/download apps.

2. And preyed on habits and norms.

My comments:-

Exactly.

Scammers use social engineering to prey on victims.

6/11/23, 1:07 pm - +Frankie Wee: Senior elderly at risk below matter when they don’t know such digital technology. Present they have learn lesson lost trust by scam.

Can we have a technology innovation eye core and facial recognition system safe so the bank will inform them beware of risk security. Without go through difficult  protection themselves.

6/11/23, 1:08 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Biometric and facial recognition now very risky.

Can be copied by scammers and victims will lose their features forever.

Unlike password stolen can change.

Biometric stolen cannot change unless reborn.

6/11/23, 1:09 pm - +Frankie Wee: Eye core

6/11/23, 1:09 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Iris Can be stolen.

6/11/23, 1:10 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 1:12 pm - +Frankie Wee: Ai network centre cybersecurity security will be under protection

6/11/23, 1:12 pm - +Frankie Wee: I think how Singapore system network cybersecurity to protect the future when wave scam hit.

6/11/23, 1:13 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 1:13 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 1:13 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 1:15 pm - +Frankie Wee: We have no choice the future seek very deeply and research still time to development there will be challenges economic growth.

6/11/23, 1:16 pm - +REACH: 📺*TUNE IN*

Singapore's parliament discusses the Israel-Hamas war, with more than 30 parliamentary questions filed about the ongoing conflict.

Watch the livestream now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTQhqBGfdfA

6/11/23, 1:16 pm - +Frankie Wee: If we know someone who pass away all the system network is informed same like SingPass.

6/11/23, 1:17 pm - +Frankie Wee: Can go ahead useful 6G when even 7G very high spend connection within per seconds.

6/11/23, 1:21 pm - +Frankie Wee: Not only technology system need one power but unit network system within inform technology whole area and connectivity.

6/11/23, 1:33 pm - +Smiley face: The prey, You play!

6/11/23, 1:34 pm - +~L: Related to this topic. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/06/chinese-influencers-using-ai-digital-clones-of-themselves-to-pump-out-content?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

There is not much trust anymore using online systems.

6/11/23, 1:34 pm - +Smiley face: When they go complex, you go simple!

6/11/23, 1:35 pm - +Smiley face: What is trust, distrusting and how about regaining trust?

They prey, You play!

6/11/23, 1:35 pm - +Smiley face: How to catch a scam?

6/11/23, 1:36 pm - +Smiley face: No system is full proof, same goes for Nuclear facilities!

So how to 'fool & scam' proof?

6/11/23, 1:38 pm - +Smiley face: From the moment of last breath to the reporting of death is 2 hours or less....or it can also be over half a day for whatsoever conveniences and family circumstances....

6/11/23, 1:38 pm - +Smiley face: The faster it is the more furious the crimes of all sorts will be....no recourse?

6/11/23, 1:40 pm - +Smiley face: Half a generation time lag to fully fulfilled digital initiatives and a robust system of delivery and defence?

Let's think of the ABC...redesign and rebuild the current digital platforms or it will be a fix and fixing and fixed situations?

6/11/23, 1:41 pm - +Smiley face: Even so for biometrics!

6/11/23, 1:41 pm - +Smiley face: Extension of biometrics....

6/11/23, 1:41 pm - +Smiley face: Easy pissy....

6/11/23, 1:42 pm - +Smiley face: Easier than done....

6/11/23, 1:43 pm - +Smiley face: Adaptation and generative with super AI abilities with Quantum Computing....all done and wiped cleaned!

Accessed!

6/11/23, 1:44 pm - +Smiley face: Australia Visa application has this feature of facial ID... what are the ring fencing protocols?

How relevant are the facial indexing?

6/11/23, 1:45 pm - +Frankie Wee: Tackle them crime and high technology. No one know future there a police job or robot replace human

6/11/23, 1:48 pm - +Smiley face: Try Hubots!

Yes to presume that these illegalities are unstoppable and unpreventable and the costs of Digitisation are all perhaps the beginning of denial of responsibilities from the individuals to the ends.

How are we supposed to journey this irreversible tempo of digit and to sustain a lowered costs of doing?

6/11/23, 1:50 pm - +KL: Haha even with high internet use rate but all use tik tok for show than mean zero . Unless is tik tok seller :)

6/11/23, 1:50 pm - +Smiley face: Police is apprehender?

Policies are the referee?

Public are the causes?

Perpetrators are the winners?

6/11/23, 1:51 pm - +Rama: 👍👌🤷‍♂️

6/11/23, 1:51 pm - +Smiley face: Tiktok is one easy pissy and relaxing place for things to happen....let's think?

6/11/23, 1:51 pm - +KL: Good infrastructure not using for good but entertainment is nothing to boost about .

6/11/23, 1:52 pm - +Smiley face: Everything regardless of tangibles or intangibles.... this case is about Internet, safety and scamming. .

All are hackable, the good, the bad and the ugly!

6/11/23, 1:53 pm - +Smiley face: How do you scam a person, a group of people and scale into the millions?

6/11/23, 1:55 pm - +Rama: Gullibility helps!

6/11/23, 1:55 pm - +Smiley face: Those who play chess or weichi or otello or Chinese chess will comprehend and understand....

6/11/23, 1:55 pm - +Smiley face: There is an old saying .." no fools until proven a fool"...

6/11/23, 1:56 pm - +Rama: Agree

6/11/23, 1:56 pm - +KL: It about logic

6/11/23, 1:56 pm - +Smiley face: You create circumstances and situations....

Think like a chess game in the playing.....the black and white

6/11/23, 1:57 pm - +Smiley face: Yes, logic and illogic!

6/11/23, 1:57 pm - +Smiley face: How you siege your enemy?

6/11/23, 1:57 pm - +KL: Weiqi is 364! Possibility. Even AI only rank 15 to 16 . God level  if I not wrong is 18

6/11/23, 1:58 pm - +Smiley face: What makes a player make the first step?

6/11/23, 1:58 pm - +KL: Not really logic if u incorp enemy but deception

6/11/23, 1:58 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

6/11/23, 1:58 pm - +Frankie Wee: Global Ai different Ai they are competition

6/11/23, 1:58 pm - +Smiley face: 364 permutates in the order of 1209 matrix and more!

6/11/23, 1:58 pm - +Rama: Too good to be true offer so press link

6/11/23, 1:59 pm - +Smiley face: Yes

6/11/23, 1:59 pm - +Smiley face: The elders, the busy, the ignorant folks will make the FIRST step

6/11/23, 2:00 pm - +Smiley face: Complex vs simple digital transactions.

Followed by the steps....

6/11/23, 2:00 pm - +Rama: This message was deleted

6/11/23, 2:01 pm - +Rama: Agree

6/11/23, 2:01 pm - +Rama: Smooth convincing talker entices the ignorant.

6/11/23, 2:03 pm - +Smiley face: Analogue vs digital ways of cheating...?

6/11/23, 2:03 pm - +KL: Recently a lot scammer impersonate TTSH , NUH and SGH . They calling a number I use long ago wonder who leak these number ?

6/11/23, 2:03 pm - +Rama: Both

6/11/23, 2:04 pm - +Rama: 🤷‍♂️

6/11/23, 2:04 pm - +KL: So did gov check the outsourcing got any ppl selling information ?

6/11/23, 2:04 pm - +Rama: 🤷‍♂️

6/11/23, 2:05 pm - +Smiley face: How to protect?

Educate?

Or?

6/11/23, 2:05 pm - +Rama: If unwilling to educate for own good, accept the consequences!

6/11/23, 2:06 pm - +Frankie Wee: Go to senior committee centre they will helpful

6/11/23, 2:06 pm - +Frankie Wee: If they are mentally unstable

6/11/23, 2:06 pm - +Smiley face: Yes, one way...

Even the younger ones are scammed?

6/11/23, 2:07 pm - +Smiley face: Then how?

6/11/23, 2:07 pm - +Frankie Wee: Learn lesson they very young must educate future

6/11/23, 2:07 pm - +Smiley face: It's happening....?

6/11/23, 2:08 pm - +Rama: Yes

6/11/23, 2:08 pm - +Frankie Wee: Get doctor to Test them IQ and EQ level they not unstable then proof certificate of doctor. Mean he or she don’t know how to go home

6/11/23, 2:09 pm - +Rama: If residents cannot remember password, this even will not help

6/11/23, 2:09 pm - +Frankie Wee: True

6/11/23, 2:10 pm - +KL: I think best is get hard token . Alt a cost to the bank .

6/11/23, 2:10 pm - +Frankie Wee: I also lazy remember password alway usually digital locker with facials recognition or finger scan or key coin

6/11/23, 2:13 pm - +Frankie Wee: Elderly live alone whom can help them when they are turn 70 or 80 depending on conditions

6/11/23, 2:13 pm - +Rama: Exactly!?

6/11/23, 2:14 pm - +Frankie Wee: One day I will be alone when my wife pass away how can help me? Even my child has own life

6/11/23, 2:14 pm - +Frankie Wee: Someone caring do not trust

6/11/23, 2:15 pm - +Rama: Likewise but I have no kids although I  am pro digital unlike my spouse so she should go before me to avoid being cheated

6/11/23, 2:15 pm - +Frankie Wee: Maybe HDB need to design new development environments room like the future

6/11/23, 2:30 pm - +Smiley face: "There may be no relief, but still we strive to keep our cause, our cherished goal alive."

- - Faiz Ahmed Faiz

6/11/23, 2:30 pm - +Rama: Yes

6/11/23, 3:09 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors*

We want to *HEAR MORE* from you! 

💬 *What are views on the findings of the Digital Society Report? How can we better promote safe use of digital services and promote greater adoption especially by seniors?*

Megan 😊

6/11/23, 3:59 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

6/11/23, 4:59 pm - +REACH: Foreign Affairs Minister Vivian Balakrishnan spells out the principles underpinning the Government's position on Israel-Hamas conflict 

👉https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/israel-hamas-conflict-stark-reminder-singapore-national-interests-stake-vivian-balakrishnan-3899991

6/11/23, 6:15 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors*

We want to *HEAR MORE* from you! 

💬 *What are views on the findings of the Digital Society Report? How can we better promote safe use of digital services and promote greater adoption especially by seniors?*

Megan 😊

6/11/23, 6:15 pm - +REACH: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 6:17 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. The Singapore Digital Society report accurately reflect 2 phenonmenon:-

a. Seniors are open to using Digital means to access services, read online information and conduct digital transaction - as Senior Go Digital programme did a good job to mentor and coach seniors in using their handphone.

I notice many CCs still have digital ambassadors wearing purple setting up desk and chairs - to help seniors who encounter digital access problem or teach seniors how to use handphone to access services.

This is a good way to get seniors on board to ride the digital wave - and make their lives easier accessing many services offered through digital form.

2. But the biggest spoiler is the online scammers - that trick digital users to give up their online identity and steal away their life savings in bank accounts and CPF.

This is the biggest show-stopper and fear injected to the seniors and even well-informed young professionals in the use of digital tools to access digital services.

3. Even though shared responsibilities eg. banks and telcos are equally liabile to compensate users if lapse are found in the banking system, or through telcos - but users are often the less financially able to sustain the loss as well as methods exploited by scammers are beyond the comprehension of many unsuspecting users..

4. Hence to help seniors and even young users to gain confidence to use digital tools to access digital services --- the authentication and identity certification must be foolproof.

The current digital bank and CPF authencation to establish user identity are not foolproof --- relying solely on digital means - that can be intercepted, masqueraded or fool the banking and CPF into determining the users are legitimate users instead of the scammers that have stolen the users' identities.

Eg. of digital authentication method -- touted as 2FA or multi-FA are :-

a. userid, password, digital token, hard token, SMS OTP, passcode, email password/digital numeric code, even biometric such as IRIS, fingerprint, facial recognition, voice recognition etc.

As digital authentication need to be converted into digital form, it can be stolen through hacking, spoofing, man-in-the-middle-attack, malware, trick to supply the banking credentials through phishing links etc.

5. Hence, the need to establish the "Foolproof, Failsafe" authentication "out of the full digital authentication - which in fact is 1FA - as they are all in-band authentication that can be stolen by a compromise digital device" --- will be needed.

a. My propose solutions as discussed with the Minister and her Ministry officer has identified the following is thus essential to augment the digital inband authentication - with the "OOB - Out Of Band" authentication that is outside the digital authentication loop - that cannot be stolen and can unambigiously identify the bank users as the legitimate users.

b. Specifically, the OOB authentication are :-

i. Digital In (Inband), Physical Out (Outband)

ii. OOB Authentication (Various local banks will adopt their own different variants to augment the inband digital authentication).

iii. Malware detection Bank Apps (started by OCBC mobile apps, adopted by Citibank, DBS, UOB)

iv. "Money lock" - a separate account to achieve all the above - for a large part of the savings to be set aside - as online scammers won't have access to through digital means - and hence safeguarding the life savings set aside.

c. Note:- the above measures will introduce some inconveniences to bank users and CPF users --- but it is the biggest, FAILSAFE and FOOLPROOF safeguard to protect digital bank users savings - as well as inject confidence to digital users --- that online scammers will be very difficult to scam the online digital users.

6/11/23, 6:23 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Without a FOOLPROOF and FAILSAFE authentication system to verify the REAL IDENTITY of the digital users ------ coaxing seniors or even young people to rely on digital access to perform financial transaction will be very difficult - as the people life savings are in peril.

2. Hence, it is imperative for MAS to has ABS and its bank members to hasten the process of OOB authentication with "Money Lock" - to regain digital users in  digital banking and financial transaction.

6/11/23, 6:27 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Having say so, most important, Government, MAS and ABS (Association Bank of Singapore) - must implement ways to safeguard the life savings and CPF of retiree, working people and those unemployed with savings ---- as many rely on their life savings to sustain their retirement --- and not let their life savings and CPF get scammed by scammers.

2. It sounds good to increase the salaries of workers but no use - when their life savings got scammed away by unscrupulous and heartless scammers.

3. Hence it is imperative for MAS to coax ABS (Association Bank of Singapore) to hasten their pace of implementing anti-scam measures, anti-malware measures to safeguard Singaporeans and Singapore residents bank accounts and CPF - against the scammers.

https://www.mas.gov.sg/news/media-releases/2023/csap-2023

_MAS' Cyber Security Advisory Panel Proposes Ways to Tackle Mobile Malware Scams and Generative AI Risks for the Financial Sector_

6/11/23, 6:27 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 6:27 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 6:27 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 6:27 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 6:27 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 6:27 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

6/11/23, 6:34 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Agree that terrorism, taking hostages, killing innocent people cannot be tolerated - and the right of self defence to bring perpetrators into justice.

2. The right of self defence must be proportional and not jeopardize innocent civilians lives.

3. Support the right of existence of both Israel and Palestine - and hence 2 State solution - is the only feasible solution to secure permanent lasting peace.

6/11/23, 6:35 pm - +Rama: There is no such thing as Palestine in human history.  Palestinian have to live under Jewish authority and protection.

6/11/23, 6:38 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Provided Palestinians agree to the arrangement.

2. Provided Israel take care of Palestinians as one of their citizen with equal opportunities like the Israelis.

3. Else only a 2 State solution is the only feasible solution.

6/11/23, 6:41 pm - +Rama: 1. They have no choice due to current terrorism running the gaza strip. The inability of the Palestinian authority to unite all under their government.  Still, they must be subjected to Jewish authority. 

2. Definitely possible. 

3. The land is Jewish by ancestry as Palestinian only came here much later than the Jewish people. Accept and move on!

6/11/23, 6:43 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Well actually, these are other countries historical problem.

I not so eager to propose a solution for them.

They have to work it out for peace - and not trigger instability to the World.

6/11/23, 6:44 pm - +Rama: The blind is leading the blind so can't avoid.

6/11/23, 6:45 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

⏰ We will be closing the chat in *15 minutes* ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

6/11/23, 6:47 pm - +Umar M: I think you need a history lesson.

6/11/23, 6:47 pm - +Rama: I beg to differ

6/11/23, 6:47 pm - +Umar M: Then we agree to disagree like adults.

6/11/23, 6:48 pm - +Rama: Exactly

6/11/23, 6:48 pm - +Umar M: I agree with your on many other points on many other topics too so I’m glad we can always discuss. 👍🏻👍🏻

6/11/23, 6:48 pm - +Rama: Yeah

6/11/23, 6:49 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Without a FOOLPROOF and FAILSAFE authentication system to verify the REAL IDENTITY of the digital users ------ coaxing seniors or even young people to rely on digital access to perform financial transaction will be very difficult - as the people life savings are in peril.

2. Hence, it is imperative for MAS to has ABS and its bank members to hasten the process of OOB authentication with "Money Lock" - to regain digital users in  digital banking and financial transaction.

----

1. Next banking system and financial system - must be fully redundant, fully resilient --- and can only be achieved by a "Active-Active Data Centre" architecture design - an almost "Zero downtime".

2. Redundant or resilient system through "Active-Backup Data Centre" architecture design - cannot guarante an almost "Zero downtime".

3. An Active-Active DC design - has no concept of failure recovery - because Active-Active won't fail - even if the primary DC is on fire, bomb or power completely loss --- because a secondary DC will just take over the load and run --- whereby users don't even know that the primary DC go down completely.

4. Some bigger countries or bigger banks have more than 2 DCs - 3 or more --- and there are no concept of failure - unless the whole Country is in war - Force Majuere - whereby all the DCs are being bombed at the same time and the Internet is completely cut off.

But Internet is bomb proof - design to withstand even a nuclear attack - as Internet routing can reroute in multiple ways when 1 path is unavailable.

5. It is this pretext that I say --- rightfully banking system -- is fully Active-Active - and should even be bomb proof --- "military-grade resiliency" - self-healing.

6/11/23, 6:57 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Hence it surprise me, why a banking services can fail,🤔

6/11/23, 6:58 pm - +Smiley face: No failures, No success...

6/11/23, 7:00 pm - +Smiley face: 6 November, 2023

"The ABC and the Piggy Bank"

"Basic Instincts? The clouds of fearfulness are covering many people minds and doubts when dealing with anything that is unfamiliar to them. In this unavoidable digital generation, either you adapt and adopt the digital ways of transacting the daily needs or you will find that sooner than later you will have to learn it and just have to do it! And who are these doubtful folks? The elders, the vulnerables, the scammed victims, and up to 10% of the population!"

- - anonymity 

Back to Basics?

There will always be challenges in transiting from  lold ways into the new methods of doing. Perhaps to resolve all of these disruptions from Digitisation is to design at the "front of things", a simplest platform for those whom are not digital and technology savvy people to start trying it out and over time gained confidence in deciding to device more dependancy towards a full digitalisation way of living. 

Mechanisms?

So what are the ABC in the simplest format? You choose up to three conveniences of life that you always need to fulfill whether is to pay the monthly utilities, paying your groceries or your phone bills. Limit the amount of money for each of these three to five transactions to avoid over paying or scamming. In a simple description of such ABC can be calied a E-Purse or E-Wallet that will protect individuals from over spending or being victims of "pick-pocket" in this "fast and furious" world of digital money.

Intermediary?

Bank, in particular, shall advice all clients to park their money into an E-Purse/Wallet to reduce the risk of scam. In the event of scam, the lost  amount will be minimised. The rest of the bigger sum of money will be inside the "piggy bank" whether in fixed deposits or other interest earnings investment with capital-protection offered by bank. One win-win approach is for bank to incentivise it's customers by doing so and reinvest the excess money by offering a token advantage to do so. 

Incentives?

No losees and no losers;  the bank and the customers! It adds up to the efficiency of fund use, better returns for the customers and the banks and the least pain deriving from cheatings and scammimgs.

Payor and Payee and Intermediary?

In the simple case of paying utilities bill, the individual, Utilities supplier. The payor and the bank will redesign a 'fool & scam' proof App in Three easy steps in simplest chinese or english instructions to complete a payment. Likewise for all other payments system too.

"There may be no relief, but still we strive to keep our cause, our cherished goal alive."

- - Faiz Ahmed Faiz

Partition?

Let's starts and redesign all of it in a simple and non confusing steps, the least steps to complete a transaction shall win over the millions of users and thus the roadmap into the future of a digital world of living and transactions.

          - - in progress - -

6/11/23, 7:00 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

6/11/23, 7:01 pm - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow only admins to send messages to this group

===

REACH 509 - What do you think about the latest recommendation by the National Wage Council (NWC)? How do you think Singaporeans and companies in Singapore can better cope with the rising cost of living?

(SK)

01 Nov 2023 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

1/11/23, 10:30 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from *1030am to 7pm* today. ⏰

*House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:* 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment.

4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.

5. Let’s protect each other’s privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

*Full set of Terms of Use:* https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

1/11/23, 10:32 am - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

To help workers cope with rising living costs, employers should consider giving a one-off lump sum payment to employees in the year ahead, said the National Wages Council (NWC) on 31 Oct (Tue).

Mr Kenny Tan, Deputy Secretary (Workforce) at the Ministry of Manpower (MOM), said at a press conference that, "there is a greater appreciation of the cost of losing talent and then reacquiring talent, so businesses are now more prepared to hold on to talent as they transform and pivot to new opportunities.”

💬 *What do you think about the latest recommendation by the National Wage Council (NWC)? How do you think Singaporeans and companies in Singapore can better cope with the rising cost of living?*

📌 *Increase wage based on business prospects*

The NWC reiterated its call for employers to implement a flexible wage system amid continuing economic uncertainty. This comprises built-in wage increases given out in line with firms’ business prospects, and variable payments reflecting firms’ performance and workers’ contributions.

For example, employers that have done well but face uncertain business prospects may moderate their built-in wage increases, but should still reward employees with variable payments.

The Ministry of Manpower (MOM) said the government will continue to support employers through the five-year progressive wage credit scheme, which co-funds the salary increases of eligible lower-wage workers.

📌 *Increases for Lower Wage Workers*

The NWC recommended a 5.5 per cent to 7.5 per cent increase in gross monthly wages for lower-wage workers, or a pay bump of at least S$85 (US$62) to S$105, whichever is higher.

The NWC also gave wage requirement recommendations for resident administrators and drivers under the occupational progressive wages model.

Under NWC's recommendations, employers must adhere to these increases in Occupational Progressive Wages in order to renew existing work passes for foreigners or apply for new work passes.

👉 https://str.sg/iGzp

👉  https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/one-payment-cost-living-inflation-workers-national-wages-council-nwc-3885196?cid=internal_sharetool_androidphone_01112023_cna

1/11/23, 10:33 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed the group description

1/11/23, 10:34 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow all participants to send messages to this group

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1/11/23, 10:50 am - +Rama: Much needed boost

1/11/23, 10:53 am - +Frankie Wee: Right fair wage must increase due to cost of living and GST

1/11/23, 11:08 am - +Rama: Yes

1/11/23, 11:13 am - +Frankie Wee: $2,500 considering is low income 😨 mean be prepared next year or 5 years will rising cost more. $1,500 is no longer start basic income.

1/11/23, 11:13 am - +Frankie Wee: Even $900 more worse

1/11/23, 11:14 am - +Rama: Sgd3K minimum but adjust upwards to factor in COL.

1/11/23, 11:15 am - +Frankie Wee: Back in 1990s everything is cheap and fair wage basic $900 or $1500

1/11/23, 11:15 am - +Rama: Government has to raise basic minimum income from sgd1.6K announced some time ago to a new minimum

1/11/23, 11:15 am - +Frankie Wee: Employees (boss) rejected the wage increases

1/11/23, 11:17 am - +Frankie Wee: At this age 40+ need a job with level skill have self intelligence when interview small company they rejected them.

1/11/23, 11:18 am - +Frankie Wee: $900 is unreasonable full time job

1/11/23, 11:21 am - +Frankie Wee: I remember the time 

Kopi-o $0.50

Chicken rice $2.00

Prata $0.60

1/11/23, 11:33 am - +Japanese words: With family totally impossible 😅

1/11/23, 11:34 am - +Japanese words: Single doable

1/11/23, 11:34 am - +Frankie Wee: Mins $5000 total income family for rising household

1/11/23, 11:35 am - +Frankie Wee: HDB loan $200k or $300k with 25 years monthly burden

Billed utilities and supplies foods cost more

1/11/23, 11:36 am - +Japanese words: Depends on how you spend.. to be frank not many household earn more than 5k bah… if no degree very likely is under. Unless they are in special industries or lots of OT

1/11/23, 11:36 am - +Frankie Wee: Old time HDB loan 30 years and less burden this years cut 25 years

1/11/23, 11:37 am - +Japanese words: 30 years is good lol… if can choose I also choose 30 years more cash in hand

1/11/23, 11:37 am - +Frankie Wee: Wonder why employees rejected wage

1/11/23, 11:38 am - +Frankie Wee: Boss alway said cost of business.

1/11/23, 11:39 am - +Frankie Wee: Or do make it excuse themselves spent luxury

1/11/23, 11:40 am - +Frankie Wee: Person said take or leave it there will no job for you at this age 40.

1/11/23, 11:40 am - +Frankie Wee: She has no choice to take it job.

1/11/23, 11:41 am - +Frankie Wee: So many Malaysia and foreign flow in Singapore job market and skill.

Why boss compare resume better than local 🤷‍♂️

1/11/23, 11:58 am - +Coconut Tree: I think it's 2k now. Iirc. Not 100% sure

1/11/23, 12:20 pm - +Rama: Sgd1600 maybe

1/11/23, 12:30 pm - +Frankie Wee: McDonald’s start basic salary $2k

1/11/23, 12:35 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://www.projectdignity.sg/

People are disability and some are disorder mentally. Employment very low pay but don’t know how to cope them in the future cost of living.

1/11/23, 12:47 pm - +Rama: Must adjust additional sgd500.00

1/11/23, 12:48 pm - +Rama: Equally paid opportunities needed!

1/11/23, 12:57 pm - +Japanese words: Low skilled… unless high skilled. Who will pay so much?

1/11/23, 12:58 pm - +Rama: Cannot avoid for long like it or not!

1/11/23, 1:02 pm - +Frankie Wee: She has skill with self integration. I can’t comment bad remarks about company only encouragement the employee need to rising them.

1/11/23, 1:04 pm - +Frankie Wee: What is fair salary take advantage of cheap and leave them problem in future. Boss feeling cold heart or showing kindness helpful. 

Even I though look at environment in kitchen is well equipped.

1/11/23, 1:05 pm - +Japanese words: Supply demand, as long as the productivity can meet the demand. Not we pay more so that they hit min pay.. 

there need to be a balance

1/11/23, 1:06 pm - +Japanese words: Boss is still doing business, can’t expect them to make a lost so they the workers can earn more?

1/11/23, 1:06 pm - +Frankie Wee: I have not know the confidentiality gross profit margin business but i believe auditors check and tax payers

1/11/23, 1:06 pm - +Rama: Selfish self centered employers!😖😡😞🤦‍♂️

1/11/23, 1:07 pm - +Frankie Wee: Basically why can’t start $1.5k but give her $900

1/11/23, 1:08 pm - +Frankie Wee: I couldn’t do much help her but encouraged to stay on job profit contributions on your own future.

1/11/23, 1:08 pm - +Japanese words: Risk and reward there must be a balance.. 

if the boss bid lower to get the business, unless stated in for example worker min pay to be such. In order to get the tender

1/11/23, 1:11 pm - +Japanese words: Plus need to consider the working hours and location

1/11/23, 1:12 pm - +Frankie Wee: She told me had work so hard without pay sign for contract after 8 month then prohibit. I feeling its abuse

1/11/23, 1:12 pm - +Frankie Wee: She left no choice

1/11/23, 1:13 pm - +Frankie Wee: I actual wanted to know what is contributing company setup in Singapore mean for? This company from Hong Kong

1/11/23, 1:16 pm - +Frankie Wee: Working hours is 42 per week Monday to Saturday. She had come early morning till 3pm

1/11/23, 1:26 pm - +Rama: 😖😡😞🤦‍♂️

1/11/23, 1:26 pm - +Rama: Grey area needs to be tightened asap!

1/11/23, 1:27 pm - +Rama: Sad😢

1/11/23, 1:28 pm - +Japanese words: Without pay, can approach MPS under MOM rule that is chargeable offences

1/11/23, 1:29 pm - +Japanese words: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 1:29 pm - +Rose M K Ho: Is she full-time or part-time? Paid by hour or by month?

Got CPF contribution?

Call MOM.

Report situation to them.

Company definitely abusing rules if any of the minimums is not met. 

Or can also say discrimination by age. 

40+ is now prime of our life wher we give our best & expect the best in return.

1/11/23, 1:29 pm - +Frankie Wee: I hope this clarifies I find why no letter of appointment

1/11/23, 1:30 pm - +Rose M K Ho: Very fishy.

Something not right.

1/11/23, 1:31 pm - +Frankie Wee: She was depressed because of this

1/11/23, 1:31 pm - +Frankie Wee: She worked almost 2 years now

1/11/23, 1:32 pm - +Japanese words: Even without if she clock in and out of the building there would be enough, including all communication if there is WhatsApp communication.

If just verbal, would check with the building owner or site which she work in. And raise her issue this would enough for the hiring company to question and pay the company

1/11/23, 1:32 pm - +Japanese words: If not they will lose the tender

1/11/23, 1:33 pm - +Frankie Wee: I wanted to help but how to or issue it. But I leave her problem as long as she is happy to work.

1/11/23, 1:33 pm - +Japanese words: Call MOM hotline they would be able to advise

1/11/23, 1:33 pm - +Frankie Wee: There no one make complainted

1/11/23, 1:33 pm - +Frankie Wee: She share with me its alright

1/11/23, 1:33 pm - +Japanese words: Then nothing much you can do… no victim no issue

1/11/23, 1:34 pm - +Frankie Wee: Yes

1/11/23, 1:34 pm - +Japanese words: Case closed

1/11/23, 1:34 pm - +Frankie Wee: 👌

1/11/23, 1:34 pm - +Rama: Yes

1/11/23, 1:34 pm - +Frankie Wee: Hope it’s helpful employee must rising mins wage

1/11/23, 1:34 pm - +Rama: Sad!

1/11/23, 1:35 pm - +Rose M K Ho: Ask her to find another job.

Go for interview first.

See if other job better.

Now, she got nothing to compare. So she doesn't know.

Once she can get other job, then she can quit this one.

1/11/23, 1:36 pm - +Frankie Wee: Boss accept employment disability ppl who are special needs or disorder but the future will rising cost how they cope or leave to them problem

1/11/23, 1:36 pm - +Japanese words: Easily just show her google job street easily I just check 1.4 to 1.6 lots of it

1/11/23, 1:39 pm - +Smiley face: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 1:44 pm - +Smiley face: What is a job?

What is a skill?

What is experience?

What is a resume?

What is expectation?

What is matching?

What is existential?

What is contribution?

What is productivity?

What is business costs?

What is basic salary?

What is people to people?

1/11/23, 2:51 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. I think the current inflation rate of 3.5 to 4% - is still quite a high figure for cost of living as our norm of inflation hover around 2 to 2.5%.

2. Hence I am not surprise NWC recommend a 5.5 to 7.5% wage increment to low wages worker fetching $2,500 or below or to give a lump sum payment.

That means maximum $187.50 salary increment per month to low wage worker is recommended.

3. Having say so, we must always be mindful that productivity growth must always be build in to the wage increment - else it will translate to higher business cost to the business (due to higher labor cost) and higher business cost will means business will have to charge higher prices for products and services to the consumers to sustain its profitability or viability of their business.

Which in effect translate into wage-induced inflation to the consumers at large on top of the current 3.5 to 4% inflation rate.

1/11/23, 3:05 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

"Impact of high cost of living on different groups of people"

1. With the latest NWC recommendation mainly focus on low income group ($2,500 and below) - the 5.5 to 7.5% wage increment more or less has helped this income group to cushion the high inflation rate.

2. Middle income group saw the fastest salary growth among workers over past decade according to MAS.

https://www.straitstimes.com/business/middle-income-earners-in-singapore-saw-fastest-salary-growth-among-workers-over-past-decade-mas

Hence the middle income group should not face too much of a problem to cover the high inflation rate.

3. Upper income group will have their means to exploit the opportunities of higher interest environment to accumulate their wealth and cushion against the high inflation rate.

4. Together with the Government generous GST voucher and COL (Cost-Of-Living voucher) for 2023, 2024 and 2025 - I think many households are quite well taken care off.

5. But there are some groups of people that will fall off the crack - specifically those not in the workforce specifically :-

a. Retirees

b. Unemployed - eg Housewives, house-husband, disable, caretakers etc.

c. School children

The high inflation and possibly wage-induced inflation will have a big impact on these groups of people.

1/11/23, 3:34 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. Having say so, most important, Government, MAS and ABS (Association Bank of Singapore) - must implement ways to safeguard the life savings and CPF of retiree, working people and those unemployed with savings ---- as many rely on their life savings to sustain their retirement --- and not let their life savings and CPF get scammed by scammers.

2. It sounds good to increase the salaries of workers but no use - when their life savings got scammed away by unscrupulous and heartless scammers.

3. Hence it is imperative for MAS to coax ABS (Association Bank of Singapore) to hasten their pace of implementing anti-scam measures, anti-malware measures to safeguard Singaporeans and Singapore residents bank accounts and CPF - against the scammers.

https://www.mas.gov.sg/news/media-releases/2023/csap-2023

_ MAS' Cyber Security Advisory Panel Proposes Ways to Tackle Mobile Malware Scams and Generative AI Risks for the Financial Sector_

1/11/23, 3:35 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 3:35 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 3:35 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 3:35 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 3:35 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 3:35 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 3:47 pm - +Frankie Wee: Victim lose their saving for hard earn money. There nothing to save them but CAD try best can’t promise return money by scammers there is very thinnest chance. They have to survival to live on older age. Maybe she or he find way to sell their home and put back assets to save and find place to rental home.

Sadly hope do not suicides over issue.

1/11/23, 3:49 pm - +Japanese words: 🥲 sad but how to protect 

Hopefully the new law in place to hold the companies liable to do due diligence help to reduce the number of victims

1/11/23, 3:50 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

That is why important for MAS to push banks to quickly implement the OOB (Out-Of-Band) authentication quickly. This will help to prevent scammers from masquerading victims identity and steal their bank savings or CPF.

1/11/23, 3:51 pm - +Frankie Wee: If lose $5k is ok

If lose $100k or $1m is long earning

1/11/23, 3:51 pm - +Japanese words: But then again… 

Even smart people get cheated… loneliness for love can do anything.. if not love scam won’t be around since the start of time 😂

1/11/23, 3:53 pm - +Japanese words: Some willingly try scams… in hope to able to recover from scams 😂

I listen I also blur…

Since they willing to pay 10% a month… I just put to hope they don’t close down within 1 year… 

😂😂 logic for people join knowingly it is a scam

1/11/23, 3:53 pm - +Frankie Wee: Sounds too good to be true don’t expect this happened

1/11/23, 3:55 pm - +Japanese words: Losing 8k… to play play 😂😂

1/11/23, 3:56 pm - +Frankie Wee: 🤦

1/11/23, 3:56 pm - +Frankie Wee: $8k is quite ok can make come back

1/11/23, 3:57 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSNAegxTn/

1/11/23, 3:57 pm - +Frankie Wee: She shared experience about her Android device got malware controlling

1/11/23, 3:58 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

1/11/23, 4:16 pm - +Rama: Suicide still possible!

1/11/23, 4:17 pm - +Rama: Banks not company

1/11/23, 4:18 pm - +Rama: Yes

1/11/23, 4:19 pm - +Japanese words: Interesting threaten company from renew work pass or get new work pass… just saw it. 

Is it law? 🤔

1/11/23, 4:47 pm - +KL: I wonder how they check ?

1/11/23, 4:47 pm - +KL: Even char kway tiao use work pass :))

1/11/23, 4:47 pm - +Japanese words: CPF Lor

1/11/23, 4:48 pm - +KL: Hmm if I top up u 400 cpf u no need do work, can the char kway tiao still hire ? <This message was edited>

1/11/23, 4:52 pm - +KL: Sg should setup a ratting centre if a person rat on those company will get a bounty <This message was edited>

1/11/23, 4:53 pm - +Rama: For ratting not on civil servants or politicians!

1/11/23, 4:54 pm - +KL: This will root out a lot of those hostess work permit and those ghost employees

1/11/23, 4:54 pm - +Rama: If no back stabbing!

1/11/23, 5:00 pm - +KL: Recent case of the flash coffee don’t you find it sad that the company Scoot free for not paying employees? A lot of ppl said one Singapore but do you really feel sad for them ? <This message was edited>

1/11/23, 5:00 pm - +Rama: 🤷‍♂️

1/11/23, 5:14 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

OOB (Out-Of-Band) is a network security implementation concept - that physically segregate an in-band digital online access from Out-Of-Band management online access - a very effective digital security"air-gap".

1/11/23, 5:15 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 5:18 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Now IT security concept can be improvised and customised for bank authentication and bank access.

举一反三。 <This message was edited>

1/11/23, 5:25 pm - +Telephone number: It isn't and won't be the first time a company has done it.

1/11/23, 5:26 pm - +Telephone number: Plenty of companies delay salaries or miss salary payment dates without much recourse other than 'mediation'.

1/11/23, 5:27 pm - +Smiley face: 1 November, 2023

"A Quantum Leap: The Coming Threats of Quantum Computing"

"The genesis of the Quantum Entanglements; this breakthrough and innovation allows the broader use of the nuclear energy output using the least input to derive in the multiplier effect of gigawatts of free and endless power and computing!"

- - anonymity 

What is quantum entanglements and what it means to quantum physics and the creation of a Quantum computer?

The cubic of cubics are the answer to the future of codes and no longer the 0&1 of the olden days of machine countings. A new way of packing and compacting informations into the cube of cubics in remote accessibility.

What are the potential threats to the world if given to the wrong hands?

All existing computer systems will be hacked within the split seconds of interventions once the QC enters into a systems of algorithmic sequencing bypassing biometrics sequence in quantum speed!

All done and wiped clean!  

            - - in progress - -

1/11/23, 5:29 pm - +Frankie Wee: Human chip

1/11/23, 5:30 pm - +Rama: Planted just below the skin

1/11/23, 5:31 pm - +Frankie Wee: Yes

1/11/23, 5:32 pm - +Frankie Wee: But it’s cruel the future human inside chip

1/11/23, 5:32 pm - +Rama: Fiction on screen slowly becoming reality

1/11/23, 5:32 pm - +Frankie Wee: Yes it turn to fact

1/11/23, 5:33 pm - +Rama: Yup

1/11/23, 6:06 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/cna-insider/malaysia-afford-retirement-crisis-epf-pension-drawdowns-covid-pandemic-3877331

Worst policy ever’: Retirement time bomb after Malaysia’s pension drawdowns amid pandemic?

Malaysians took RM145 billion out of their pension fund to cushion the impact of the pandemic. 

More than half aged below 55 ended up with less than RM10,000 in their accounts. 

Is Malaysia facing a retirement crisis, the programme Insight asks.

Anyhow use CPF the moment COVID hit - now retirement savings left with nothing for retirement.

1/11/23, 6:07 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Singapore cannot make this mistakes.

1/11/23, 6:08 pm - +Frankie Wee: Yes Malaysia future will be difficult retirement time bomb. Many come here sg working

1/11/23, 6:09 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

During COVID time, I recall some politicians ask to open up CPF savings for use.

Luckily we disallow.

Else we will end up like Malaysia.

1/11/23, 6:09 pm - +Frankie Wee: True

1/11/23, 6:12 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Oppositions always think of easy way out when crisis hit.

We better think carefully and always use the smartest way to get out of trouble.

Else we are kicking the can down the road and everyone suffer.

1/11/23, 6:17 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:17 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢

1/11/23, 6:18 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:18 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

So that we can die faster like our neighbour.

1/11/23, 6:18 pm - +Rama: Blady moron!

1/11/23, 6:18 pm - +Rama: Pea Brain!

1/11/23, 6:19 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://theindependent.sg/lim-tean-sporeans-should-be-allowed-to-withdraw-cpf-in-times-of-need-uses-msia-as-example/

Lim Tean: S’poreans should be allowed to withdraw CPF in times of need, uses M’sia as example in times of COVID.

1/11/23, 6:19 pm - +Rama: They will never form or be part of any government!

1/11/23, 6:46 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

⏰ We will be closing the chat in *15 minutes* ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

1/11/23, 6:51 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

"MAS bars DBS from new business acquisitions for 6 months after repeated banking service disruptions.

DBS, Singapore’s largest lender, is also required to pause all non-essential IT changes for six months."

 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/dbs-digital-banking-disruption-barred-new-business-acquisitions-mas-3888646#:~:text=MAS%20bars%20DBS%20from%20new%20business%20acquisitions%20for%206,pause%20all%20non%2Dessential%20IT%20changes%20for%20six%20months.

1/11/23, 6:52 pm - +Rama: Needle in a haystack punishment!

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

DBS network infrastructure need to revamp.

It is not a rocket science.

Any IT professionals worth its salt can do it

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - +Rama: Complacent

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

"The Big Read: With no foolproof way to prevent banking and e-payment outages, what can businesses and consumers do?"

This new article comment is flaw.

There are full redundant and full resilient data center design - military grade resiliency.

Even if one data center fails, on fire or being bomb, the backup data center can take over its slack online realtime - with no downtime to the bank systems.

It is all in the system design.

 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/banking-outages-epayment-service-disruption-big-read-3879661#:~:text=The%20Big%20Read%3A%20With%20no%20foolproof%20way%20to%20prevent%20banking%20and%20e%2Dpayment%20outages%2C%20what%20can%20businesses%20and%20consumers%20do%3F

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

'This is not supposed to happen': Experts on DBS, Citi outage caused by data centre failure.

Most banks have two or more data centres and redundancies at multiple levels if a primary data centre goes offline, industry experts say.                                                                                                                https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/dbs-citibank-outage-data-centre-cooling-system-down-3861076

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:53 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 6:54 pm - +Rama: So, why did it!?

1/11/23, 6:55 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Hmm...

I think their IT infrastructure guy lack the up-to-date knowledge.

Their current design Active-Backup design is the old design.

1/11/23, 6:55 pm - +Rama: Oversight failure!

1/11/23, 6:56 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

The revamp needs at least one year to do it to migrate all the applications and network systems to an Active - Active one.

1/11/23, 6:56 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Including active active database.

1/11/23, 6:57 pm - +Rama: Like I said, who failed to see this while running back up contingency plans all these while!?

1/11/23, 6:58 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Well, the DBS infrastructure team need to engage an IT consultant to do it.

A 1 year project job.

1/11/23, 6:58 pm - ☸️  Danny 心: 

Their design is at least a 10 years old design.

1/11/23, 6:59 pm - +Smiley face: <Media omitted>

1/11/23, 7:00 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

1/11/23, 7:02 pm - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow only admins to send messages to this group

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