REACH - NDR 2023
What are your views on the latest announcements by Minister Desmond Lee to make public housing more affordable and accessible?
(SK) (LWR)
23 Aug 2023
REACH
23/08/2023, 9:44 am - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
Welcome back! 😊
⏰ We will be opening the chat from *10am to 7pm* today. ⏰
*House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind:*
1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views.
2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.
3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment.
4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.
5. Let’s protect each other’s privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential.
*Full set of Terms of Use:* https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms
We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.
Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.
The topic will be posted shortly.
Thank you
Megan 😊
23/08/2023, 9:59 am - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
Following PM Lee’s speech at the National Day Rally on 20 August, Minister for National Development Desmond Lee shared on Monday (21 Aug) how the reclassification of HDB flats, which comes into effect in the second half of 2024, will help young couples hoping to buy affordable homes in good locations.
💬 *What are your views on the latest announcements by Minister Desmond Lee to make public housing more affordable and accessible?*
📌 *Resale Restrictions*
To keep the flats affordable beyond the first owners, there will be conditions for resale buyers to moderate demand and keep these homes affordable and inclusive over time. These conditions include a 30-months wait-out period for private property owners, as well as a household income ceiling for resale buyers. For Plus flats, this income ceiling is set at S$14,000 for both families and singles. This is the prevailing BTO income ceiling for married couples, which covers eight in 10 Singaporean households. The BTO income ceiling for singles is S$7,000.
Except for the subsidy recovery which will only apply to the first owners, these conditions will apply to subsequent buyers to keep flats affordable beyond first sale.
📌 *Standard, Plus and Prime*
Build-to-Order (BTO) projects will fall under three categories - Standard, Plus and Prime - from the second half of 2024. This replaces the mature and non-mature framework that has been around since the early 1990s.
Plus flats will be in choicer locations such as near transport nodes or town centres. They will come with more subsidies but also tighter resale conditions such as a minimum occupation period of 10 years before they can be put on the resale market. Similar to the rules for Prime flats, owners of Plus flats will be subject to a subsidy recovery at the point of first resale.
From the second half of 2024 onwards, the three ballot chances will apply for all Prime, Plus and Standard BTO projects. All other first-timers, such as those who may have owned private property and HDB resale flat owners who did not receive housing subsidies, will continue to get two ballot chances. Some of the first-timer families will get first priority when applying for four-room or smaller Standard Build-To-Order (BTO) flats across Singapore under the new flat classification, compared with just in non-mature estates.
📌 *EASE 2.0*
Seniors will also get more subsidised fittings under the Enhancement for Active Seniors 2.0 (EASE 2.0) programme to make it easier and safer for them to go about their daily activities within their homes.
These include rocker switches which are easier to see and press, smoke detectors, handrails at flat entrances, foldable shower seats and widened toilet entrances for wheelchair users.
👉 *Some first-timer families to get priority for Standard HDB flats across S’pore under new classification* https://str.sg/i5tU
👉 *$14k income ceiling for buyers of resale Plus flats*
https://str.sg/i5yz
👉 *Housing policy changes benefit singles who want to live near parents, but some say more can be done* https://cna.asia/45f06JB
23/08/2023, 10:00 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow all participants to send messages to this group
23/08/2023, 10:01 am - ~ REACH Singapore changed the group description
------
23/08/2023, 10:17 am - +Smiley face: "Many things in life happened for reasons, some reasons are obvious and comprehensible while often enough many problems remain unresolved and left alone without an answer or no logical explanation or work-in-progress; that itself is evolution...?"
- - anonymity
23/08/2023, 10:21 am - +Rama: We are getting somewhere in accomodating singles, improving living condition for seniors and giving first time families priority housing.
23/08/2023, 10:22 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: MND should come out and say what is the subsidy recovery percentage/amount.
Eg: if subsidy is $60K, 10 years later on selling flat, give back $60K? I think not as hdb would probably factor in interest. So what will be the interest rate used? Sibor? Cpf+1? Questions questions question.
Without this crucial information, how is one able to know if the scheme is worth it?
23/08/2023, 10:23 am - +Caleb: subsidy recovery percentage/amount will be stated when purchased the house
23/08/2023, 10:23 am - +Caleb: subsidy recovery percentage/amount is the selling price
23/08/2023, 10:23 am - +Caleb: of the house
23/08/2023, 10:23 am - +Frankie Wee: If you buy resale then grant keep it
If you buy bto 2nd timer then grant return
23/08/2023, 10:24 am - +Frankie Wee: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 10:26 am - +Rama: Very complicated to understand for the electorate on the criteria.
23/08/2023, 10:26 am - +Anslem: MND should consider the highest subsidy for Singaporeans whom BTO and don't ever sell their HDB AND purchase a 2nd property.
23/08/2023, 10:27 am - +Rama: Agree
23/08/2023, 10:30 am - +Frankie Wee: Some non mature such woodlands. Sengkang and Jurong sold $1m transactions for larger size room.
Wonder how they can afford than condo or EC instead.
Change rule restrictions would hurt them bough cost $1m down price $550k for resale.
23/08/2023, 10:37 am - +Kenneth Lee WM: So if subsidy given is 15% of flat cost.
Amount of subsidy to return is 15% off selling price?
Eg:
flat cost $400k, subsidy is $60K
Flat sold $800K, need to return $120K?
23/08/2023, 10:37 am - +Caleb: Don't think so
23/08/2023, 10:37 am - +Caleb: Heard Prime was 6%
23/08/2023, 10:38 am - +Caleb: Of the recover amount
23/08/2023, 10:38 am - +Frankie Wee: I though original price
23/08/2023, 10:41 am - +Smiley face: When interest rates up, properties value down, likewise the reversal!
In SG context, the price and value paradigms both are inelastic all because of calibrated and careful plannings of the demand and supply (not the other way around) that creates Stability across all assets class, this instance the system of dwellings.
23/08/2023, 10:43 am - +~L: yes - details matter; and what happens if someone needs to move during the MoP? 10 years is really long to know all the life paths that may appear.
23/08/2023, 10:44 am - +~L: agreed
23/08/2023, 10:46 am - +Smiley face: The possible projection downward movements of price and value either or both are at most -10%.
And the 10% movement is "H of a lot"; the banking system may be able to absorb such impactful moves!
No sweat at all unless in cases of over borrowings which MAS shall further calibrate and keep watchful eyes not only to individuals but to corporates and SMEs, that's prudence at play!
23/08/2023, 10:47 am - +Smiley face: DSR, aka debts servicing ratio.
23/08/2023, 11:25 am - +Smiley face: "Money can be found and happiness has to be created?"
- - anonymity
23/08/2023, 11:32 am - +Frankie Wee: Money grow from tree they create from begin: saving, start a new family, and prepare for future retirement next pass generations when they are gone.
Nothing worry about house when lease is expired and state land of return to SLA.
23/08/2023, 11:56 am - ☸️ Danny 心:
*NDR 2023 - Housing Framework and Vision*
1. First, I will like to highlight and address the 3 vision for housing raise in NDR 2023 by PM Lee in the NDR rally as well as the follow up session held by Minister MND Desmond Lee as follows :
a. Affordability
b. Fairness
c. Good Social Mix
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/ndr-2023-new-public-housing-framework-needed-to-ensure-affordability-fairness-and-good-social-mix
2. These 3 housing framework and vision - are well meaning, lofty (of high principles and standard) and holistic.
Looking at it, it is created by a well-meaning, kind, compassionate and a good hearted Government - to ensure all Singaporeans have a house and a roof over their heads - where housing is the "largest, biggest items" - that all Singaporeans need to fork out from their income to finance.
3. The reclassification of housing estates into Standard, Plus and Prime -- is a good scheme to start with and attempted to address the above 3 framework and vision - which is laudable and workable.
4. However, I realise that the 3 lofty framework and vision - only apply to 80% of all Singaporeans, and push out (or leave out) the other 20% of the Singaporeans from the HDB framework and unwittingly creating a "social class", "high status categories" for these 20% Singaporeans due to the "Income Ceiling" of $14,000 impose on HDB BTO application.
Essentially creating an "Elite Class" through a well-meaning Housing Policies to help the middle income and lower income - but artificially creating an "Elite Class" for the upper income group among Singaporeans.
5. Let us relook at the 3 lofty visions - Affordability, Fairness and Social Mix.
a. I will like to elaborate on "Fairness" ---- which I intuitively understand HDB's intent - is to help lower income and middle income group to have a house which is affordable. Hence it will involve "high subsidies" that will draw out the Government coffer to ensure HDB BTO flats can be afforded by the lower and middle income group.
I fully support this intent.
b. However, HDB BTO flats are more than $ and cents.
HDB flats represent Singapore since independence - and have been associate as "Singaporeaness" unique to Singapore in the eyes of the World.
Everything that happen in and around HDB flats - represent Community social interaction, equalise all social class and status - as Singaporeans mix around in the void deck, among neighborhood, in community centre, in community garden --- essentially HDB flats are our "kampong" for camarderie.
Exanple, President Halimah stay in HDB flat - and everyone feels that President Halimah - is "One of Us"
c. Hence, "fairness" - should also include "Inclusiveness" - that is all Singaporeans regardless of race, languages, religions, social class, status and income levels - rightfully should be able to apply to HDB BTO flats - to really fulfill "fairness" or I should extent it as "Inclusiveness".
But the "Income Ceiling of $14,000" - has prevent real "Fairness" or "Inclusiveness" from taking place - as Singaporeans with income ceiling above $14,000 has been "pushed out" to create an "Elite Class" of their own to buy EC, private condo, landed properties or GCB.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/14000-income-ceiling-for-families-and-singles-to-buy-plus-flats-on-resale-market-desmond-lee#:~:text=%2414%2C000%20income%20ceiling%20for%20families%2C%20singles%20to%20buy%20Plus%20flats%20on%20resale%20market%3A%20Desmond%20Lee
This "high income group" cannot be part of the HDB flat community, the "Singapore kampong".
d. Hence, this unwittingly also lead to failure or inability to fulfill the 3rd housing vision or framework "Social Mix" - because the high income group - is not part of the HDB community or Singapore kampong.
Hence. a well meaning HDB vision - has unwittingly created a "social divide" - by imposing an "income ceiling" for HDB BTO flat eligibility.
e. On the hindsight, high income group are also "Singaporeans" - why "push them out" from the "Singapore kampong" - and stop them from "social interaction and living" in the HDB flats community?
In the long term, social divide will surface, lower and middle income group will say - high income is an "Elite Class" - and this is not really good for Singapore.
f. High income group are decent lots, they work hard, hardworking, earn their worth, more resourceful, they are successful through their own efforts ---- and they are Singaporeans that contribute to a large proportion of taxes and contribute their efforts to build Singapore.
Hence why "push them out" of Singapore kampong?
e. Yes I understand HDB BTO flats are heavily subsidised by the Government, and high income group should not benefit from the heavy subsidy - which I fully agreed.
However, this can be easily address such as :-
i. Income ceiling of $14,000 will not be granted subsidy and can be reflected as higher purchase price during sales.
But high income group should not be prevented from applying for a HDB BTO flat because of the simple fact they are Singaporeans like any others.
ii. Some high income group will like to live with HDB community, live frugally, mix with ordinary citizens among them like President Halimah.
Also some high income group will not want millions of dollars lock up in housing and want to free up more cash for their retirement.
Hencce with less financial burden, high income group will have less stress, have more children and boost our population TFR of 1.05 to higher - which will be good to build a strong "Singaporean core".
Especially, those high income group at the fringe of $14,000 can be a flux because the combined income of young couple during the year of application (1 year income) could be $14,000 - but due to the short business cycle, disruptive tech, AI, automation, one or both couple could easily lose their jobs - and their income of $14,000 could drop to $7,000 or $0 - which become a lower income group.
Hence, based on assessment of 1 year income to determine a 20 years or more housing loan commitment - is not a good criteria to "push out" high income group - as stable and secure career for long term is not assured.
iii. Hence, I will like HDB to serious consider - removing the "Income Ceiling" of HDB BTO flats - to prevent a "Social Divide", unwittingly create an "Elite class" ---- and truly meet the vision of "Fairness - which is Inclusiveness" and "True social mix - that does not exclude the high income group".
23/08/2023, 11:56 am - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 11:56 am - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 12:06 pm - +Jospeh Yap: 💬 What are your views on the latest announcements by Minister Desmond Lee to make public housing more affordable and accessible?
I applaud the 30-months wait-out period for private property owners. This will help to reduce the speculative impact from private property owners. However, I noted that the effective date only starts from second half of 2024, earlier implementation to control the lottery effect of HDB flats could be considered.
23/08/2023, 12:22 pm - +~L: Agreed, a 1 year assessment of income makes no sense. Also agree that over 14k household income should not prevent purchase just reduce the subsidy. In face the subsidy should be a sliding scale based on income, not a binary yes or no fixed subsidy.
23/08/2023, 12:22 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
*Optics of High Income group living in HDB flats with the rest of the Singaporeans*
1. Now let us try to address the "Extreme" cases - whether it can satisfy the "optics" of all Singaporeans - not to make noise - why let the "high income group" come into our HDB community when they can affod the EC, private condo, landed properties and GCB - and compete with ordinary Singaporeans citizens to get a flat.
2. Ok let us address demand and supply - and not let high income group of 20% compete and crowd out 80% of Singaporeans for HDB BTO flats.
3. Previously, Singapore flats need to build 15 floor high for a footfall due to height restriction as airports like paya lebar airport are in a central location.
But with moving out to Tengah airport, Changi airport to the fringe, height restriction is no longer an issue.
For the same footfall, instead of building 15 floor, HDB can build 30 floor (100% increase in capacit), or build 45 floor (200% increase in capacity), 60 floor (300% increase in capacity).
There will be no short in supply to accomodate 20% of high income group.
Assume 20% of 3.5 million people, 4 persons to a house = about 175,000 HDB units.
4. High income group will not make use of HDB flats to speculate or attempt a windfall - because private condo, landed properties or GCB is a better, more flexible ways to do so and more profitable.
HDB flats have alot of restriction - MOP, grant clawbback etc.
5. Those high income group who prefer a "high living" will buy a EC, private condo, landed properties or GCB - they won't want to live in a HDB flat.
6. But many high income group can live in HDB BTO flats - to live with the rest in a "HDB kampong" - and erase the "Social class", the "Social divide" --- and result in more social inclusiveness minus the social divide.
7. Now let us address the challenge throw out by HDB - concerning "optics" - eg. will ordinary Singaporeans able to accept a person who earn $100,000 a month to live in a HDB flat. Is it fair?
a. Does this high income person exploit the heavy subsidies from the Government?
Ans: No, because as I have say earlier, during sales, Government will have remove subsidies to this person and this person will have to pay a higher price.
b. This person pay high taxes so that Government has revenue to finance the fiscal budget - so this person should not be excluded to stay in a HDB flat in which he help to finance the lower and middle income group.
Why 打了斋，不要和尚？
That is why so unfair to him and discriminate him?
c. Many rich people in HDB can live quietly, humblely, mix well with ordinary Singaporeans in HDB - why create an "Elite class" for them?
d. So based on the above reasoning, does it answer the HDB challenge of "optics"?
e. Also does it address the fear of high income group using HDB to speculate, gaining a windfall?
23/08/2023, 12:31 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Hence with the above reasoning, I have fulfilled PM Lee and Minister Desmond Lee housing framework of:-
1. Affordability
2. Fairness (Inclusiveness)
3. Social Mix
Fulfilled fully, wholesomely, in perfection that include:-
i. Lower income
ii. Middle income
iii. Higher income (why leave us out?) - we not Singaporeans meh?
23/08/2023, 12:44 pm - +Frankie Wee: $100,000 high income of course can buy HDB or any property only resale open market.
23/08/2023, 12:45 pm - +Frankie Wee: I can said person retire have $1m in CPF also can live in HDB too
23/08/2023, 12:45 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Why discriminate them?
Low and middle income live new flats.
Resale flat lease 60 years. Too short.
High income, only can live old flats.
After lease expires, no house for them to stay. <This message was edited>
23/08/2023, 12:47 pm - +Frankie Wee: Because they are rich enough to fully paid. As long as they willing to live short lease at age. If person 40 year old + lease 60 years is 100 years old nobody know live or death.
23/08/2023, 12:47 pm - +Frankie Wee: Low and mid income govt will do something to help them find new home standard than plus and prime
23/08/2023, 12:48 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Oh, because rich he deserves to live old flat?
Then come back to fairness, inclusiveness and social mix.
Got discrimination?
23/08/2023, 12:49 pm - +REACH: *Presidential candidate broadcasts to air on Aug 24 and 30 evenings*
👉 https://str.sg/iS4e
*More than half of 6,649 registered overseas voters to try new postal voting for presidential election*
👉 https://str.sg/iS4B
23/08/2023, 12:51 pm - +Frankie Wee: I no right against rich because money no is rule as long as they like buy. Is it not discrimination and fairness.
Mix social benefits fair what they deserve get benefit govt while rich get nothing.
23/08/2023, 12:52 pm - +Frankie Wee: What if I strike Toto $6m still live HDB
23/08/2023, 12:53 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Yes rich get no subsidies is alright.
But cannot shut them out.
They are Singaporeans like anyone of us.
They contribute more in taxes than anyone of us.
They not outsiders.
Cannot shut them out.
They are one of us.
23/08/2023, 12:53 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
President Halimah stay in HDB flat.
We feel she is one of us.
23/08/2023, 12:54 pm - +Andrew Ang: No whole flat rental for plus & prima
23/08/2023, 12:54 pm - +Frankie Wee: Only per room can rental
23/08/2023, 12:55 pm - +Frankie Wee: Whole units room can’t rental local in plus and prime
23/08/2023, 12:55 pm - +Frankie Wee: MOP require 10 years after allow rental
23/08/2023, 12:57 pm - +Andrew Ang: Confirm?
23/08/2023, 12:58 pm - +Andrew Ang: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 1:03 pm - +Frankie Wee: Hmm I can’t find artist information. I remember saw it.
23/08/2023, 1:03 pm - +Frankie Wee: Should be confirm that.
23/08/2023, 1:04 pm - +Smiley face: Close to 5km of streets in places like Ang Mo Kio, Tampines to get pedestrian-friendly features
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/close-to-5km-of-streets-in-places-like-ang-mo-kio-tampines-to-get-pedestrian-friendly-features
23/08/2023, 1:11 pm - +Frankie Wee: Master plan in future eco-friendly environments and projects will be developed like pathways to city (woodlands to orchard imagine short cut the road or jam crowded)
23/08/2023, 1:16 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://www.straitstimes.com/business/invest/elderly-man-who-lived-in-hdb-rental-flat-has-1m-savings
23/08/2023, 1:23 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 1:23 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Goodness.
His pretty girls comments again.. <This message was edited>
23/08/2023, 1:28 pm - +~L: I did wonder if the Income Threshold also takes savings into account...
23/08/2023, 1:28 pm - +~L: fantastic!
23/08/2023, 1:30 pm - +Rama: Pure prudence
23/08/2023, 2:01 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
Following PM Lee’s speech at the National Day Rally on 20 August, Minister for National Development Desmond Lee shared on Monday (21 Aug) how the reclassification of HDB flats, which comes into effect in the second half of 2024, will help young couples hoping to buy affordable homes in good locations.
💬 *What are your views on the latest announcements by Minister Desmond Lee to make public housing more affordable and accessible?*
📌 *Resale Restrictions*
To keep the flats affordable beyond the first owners, there will be conditions for resale buyers to moderate demand and keep these homes affordable and inclusive over time. These conditions include a 30-months wait-out period for private property owners, as well as a household income ceiling for resale buyers. For Plus flats, this income ceiling is set at S$14,000 for both families and singles. This is the prevailing BTO income ceiling for married couples, which covers eight in 10 Singaporean households. The BTO income ceiling for singles is S$7,000.
Except for the subsidy recovery which will only apply to the first owners, these conditions will apply to subsequent buyers to keep flats affordable beyond first sale.
📌 *Standard, Plus and Prime*
Build-to-Order (BTO) projects will fall under three categories - Standard, Plus and Prime - from the second half of 2024. This replaces the mature and non-mature framework that has been around since the early 1990s.
Plus flats will be in choicer locations such as near transport nodes or town centres. They will come with more subsidies but also tighter resale conditions such as a minimum occupation period of 10 years before they can be put on the resale market. Similar to the rules for Prime flats, owners of Plus flats will be subject to a subsidy recovery at the point of first resale.
From the second half of 2024 onwards, the three ballot chances will apply for all Prime, Plus and Standard BTO projects. All other first-timers, such as those who may have owned private property and HDB resale flat owners who did not receive housing subsidies, will continue to get two ballot chances. Some of the first-timer families will get first priority when applying for four-room or smaller Standard Build-To-Order (BTO) flats across Singapore under the new flat classification, compared with just in non-mature estates.
📌 *EASE 2.0*
Seniors will also get more subsidised fittings under the Enhancement for Active Seniors 2.0 (EASE 2.0) programme to make it easier and safer for them to go about their daily activities within their homes.
These include rocker switches which are easier to see and press, smoke detectors, handrails at flat entrances, foldable shower seats and widened toilet entrances for wheelchair users.
👉 *Some first-timer families to get priority for Standard HDB flats across S’pore under new classification* https://str.sg/i5tU
👉 *$14k income ceiling for buyers of resale Plus flats*
https://str.sg/i5yz
👉 *Housing policy changes benefit singles who want to live near parents, but some say more can be done* https://cna.asia/45f06JB
23/08/2023, 2:03 pm - +Smiley face: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 2:20 pm - +Smiley face: https://mustsharenews.com/environment-building-bomb-threat/?utm_source=telegram
23/08/2023, 2:20 pm - +Smiley face: https://mustsharenews.com/erp-increase-august-2023/?utm_source=telegram
23/08/2023, 2:42 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors*
We want to *HEAR MORE* from you on today’s topic!
💬 *What are your views on the latest announcements by Minister Desmond Lee to make public housing more affordable and accessible?*
We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!
Megan 😊
23/08/2023, 2:55 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
1. Also hope that every launch in every estate, whether for standard, plus or prime - do provide a mix of 3 room flats, 4 room flats and 5 room flats as well.
2. This will fulfill the vision of "fairness" and "social mix".
3. Notice that the newly launched BTO at central, north, south etc don't have 5 room flats.
4. Only far fetched tengah and I think if I am not wrong Chua Chu Kang got 5 room flats.
5. Serangoon vista got some 5 room flats but over subscribed by 13 : 1 - no chance.
6. Some young couples need more rooms and bigger flats to raised more children and WFH and needs space to set up working gadgets.
7. So forcing young couples to apply for flats in far fetched areas instead of near parents place - defeat the purpose of objectives for young couples to raise more children. Impact TFR 1.05 cannot improve.
8. No bigger flat how to have more children?
Living far away from parents how to look after grandchildren?
9. If no one look after children, means wife or husband got to resign to look after the children - won't this impact the availability of talent labour force? <This message was edited>
23/08/2023, 2:57 pm - +Coconut Tree: Good point on the no 5 rooms in central locations. Might be deliberate move to keep the cost of the unit down though?
If kids are coming into the picture, larger units will definitely be helpful.
23/08/2023, 3:01 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If good location and central location footfall is tight in spaces, build upwards.
Eg. Instead of 15 floor, build 30 floor.
If 30 floor not enough, build, 45 floor.
So assume we have space for 3 blocks, then build 1 block 3 room flats.
1 block 4 room flats.
1 block 5 room flats.
All at 30 floors.
Instead of 1 block 3 room flats.
2 block 4 room flats.
All at 15 floor.
This will meet the flat demand of different configurations.
23/08/2023, 3:10 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Eg. Serangoon Vista if I am not wrong - build a mix of 4 room flats and 5 room flats --- up to 15 floors (if I am not wrong).
But demand very strong 13 : 1.
My son got no chance, don't even have a queue number.
But Paya Lebar airport will be moving out soon - not sure which year 2025?
The Serangoon Vista is not yet build - 1 large barren land - only a few blocks away from my block.
It meet all our requirement if my son can get the 5 room flat - but now, no hope.
Imagine if the height restriction is removed come 2025, and both the 4 room flats and 5 room flats can build up to 30 floors, 45 floors, or even up to 60 floors for every block (not sure how many blocks) - as I don't have the info at hand with me.
Then the ratio could have drop from 13:1 to 1:1 --- every applicants can own a flat. Problem solve!
My son can live near me, have children with 5 room flat and live happily ever after ---- like a fairy tale.
Now can only dream.....
23/08/2023, 4:00 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
Following PM Lee’s speech at the National Day Rally on 20 August, Minister for National Development Desmond Lee shared on Monday (21 Aug) how the reclassification of HDB flats, which comes into effect in the second half of 2024, will help young couples hoping to buy affordable homes in good locations.
💬 *What are your views on the latest announcements by Minister Desmond Lee to make public housing more affordable and accessible?*
📌 *Resale Restrictions*
To keep the flats affordable beyond the first owners, there will be conditions for resale buyers to moderate demand and keep these homes affordable and inclusive over time. These conditions include a 30-months wait-out period for private property owners, as well as a household income ceiling for resale buyers. For Plus flats, this income ceiling is set at S$14,000 for both families and singles. This is the prevailing BTO income ceiling for married couples, which covers eight in 10 Singaporean households. The BTO income ceiling for singles is S$7,000.
Except for the subsidy recovery which will only apply to the first owners, these conditions will apply to subsequent buyers to keep flats affordable beyond first sale.
📌 *Standard, Plus and Prime*
Build-to-Order (BTO) projects will fall under three categories - Standard, Plus and Prime - from the second half of 2024. This replaces the mature and non-mature framework that has been around since the early 1990s.
Plus flats will be in choicer locations such as near transport nodes or town centres. They will come with more subsidies but also tighter resale conditions such as a minimum occupation period of 10 years before they can be put on the resale market. Similar to the rules for Prime flats, owners of Plus flats will be subject to a subsidy recovery at the point of first resale.
From the second half of 2024 onwards, the three ballot chances will apply for all Prime, Plus and Standard BTO projects. All other first-timers, such as those who may have owned private property and HDB resale flat owners who did not receive housing subsidies, will continue to get two ballot chances. Some of the first-timer families will get first priority when applying for four-room or smaller Standard Build-To-Order (BTO) flats across Singapore under the new flat classification, compared with just in non-mature estates.
📌 *EASE 2.0*
Seniors will also get more subsidised fittings under the Enhancement for Active Seniors 2.0 (EASE 2.0) programme to make it easier and safer for them to go about their daily activities within their homes.
These include rocker switches which are easier to see and press, smoke detectors, handrails at flat entrances, foldable shower seats and widened toilet entrances for wheelchair users.
👉 *Some first-timer families to get priority for Standard HDB flats across S’pore under new classification* https://str.sg/i5tU
👉 *$14k income ceiling for buyers of resale Plus flats*
https://str.sg/i5yz
👉 *Housing policy changes benefit singles who want to live near parents, but some say more can be done* https://cna.asia/45f06JB
23/08/2023, 4:11 pm - +Thai message: This message was deleted
23/08/2023, 4:22 pm - +REACH: *Special polling stations set up at 31 nursing homes for presidential election*
👉🏼 https://str.sg/iSoA
23/08/2023, 4:36 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 4:39 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
See Serangoon north Kensington park build up to 18 floor.
From neighbour town Ang mo kio - it can build up to 30 floors.
Paya lebar airport nearby both towns in fact moving out 2025 if not wrong.
How come Serangoon vista new BTO flats don't build up to 30 floors neh?
To maximize the footfalls so that all applicants can be successful in ballot neh?
23/08/2023, 4:40 pm - +Coconut Tree: 30 Floor okay, above that Piling/Substructure and Building svcs costs will spike. Will also need additional space for additional lifts.
23/08/2023, 4:41 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Understand.
But at least can go back to drawing board to build 30 floors first mah to help to meet demand.
23/08/2023, 4:44 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
I was previously involved in building the tallest building in the world for an overseas country.
I understand the piling, substructure difficulty, as well as intermediate lifts in between mid way of the buildings.
That buildings is 1 km from the ground and if I can remember correctly decades back it was about 100 floors.
23/08/2023, 4:45 pm - +Coconut Tree: yeah - not so easy to stack up. It looks like 25-30 seems to be the optimum design given SG's soil condition.
23/08/2023, 4:45 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
But due to instability of the soil structure and budget constraint, it never go beyond planning stage.
Hence today's tallest building in the world will not be the tallest if that building take off.
23/08/2023, 4:47 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Er, I think Singapore tallest building exceed 50 floors if I am not wrong.
Let me Google search.
23/08/2023, 4:47 pm - +Coconut Tree: Jeddah tower?
23/08/2023, 4:47 pm - +Coconut Tree: yeap, quite high. But for public housing, different metrics since cost is a major issue.
23/08/2023, 4:48 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 4:48 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 4:48 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Divide by 5 metres per floor about 60 floors.
23/08/2023, 4:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
I think better not talk about the project and get Singapore into trouble.
23/08/2023, 4:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Not Jeddah tower.
23/08/2023, 4:51 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 4:51 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Singapore tallest HDB flat - not sure how many floors, got 50 floors?
23/08/2023, 5:06 pm - +Frankie Wee: Limit 50th floor
23/08/2023, 5:07 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/189-tallest-hdb-flats-singapore-002344224.html
23/08/2023, 5:08 pm - +Frankie Wee: UOB Plaza 66th floor
23/08/2023, 5:08 pm - +Frankie Wee: What if Singapore tallest building 200th floor will going collapse down.
23/08/2023, 5:09 pm - +Smiley face: Try 80 floors!
23/08/2023, 5:12 pm - +Rama: I thought duxton with 40 floors was the highest hdb block!?
23/08/2023, 5:14 pm - +Frankie Wee: Make business profit ticket $6 view top 50th floor nice view skyscraper
23/08/2023, 5:20 pm - +Frankie Wee: Singapore increase population growth 8-9 million people.
We building underground and 80th floor more spared cities
23/08/2023, 5:21 pm - +Bhavani: We must prevent overpopulation in the first place so that we do not have to build more and more concrete buildings to house this overpopulation.
We need forests for a healthy Singapore. Forests also provide herbs to prevent and cure diseases and pollution free oxygenated air. If we keep building more and more concrete buildings side by side, these might lead to landslides and sinkholes due to unstable soil. Moreover, forests and animals have as much right to exist as humans whether they provide benefits to humans or not. Just like there is human rights, there should be an environmental law for forest rights otherwise humans, animals and the environment will suffer. We are already suffering with unbearable heat due to climate change. <This message was edited>
23/08/2023, 5:21 pm - +Frankie Wee: Economy and Gdp will gain 200k per capital.
23/08/2023, 5:23 pm - +Frankie Wee: Placed the high sky green garden 🪴 and forest 🌳
23/08/2023, 5:24 pm - +Bhavani: Building higher can lead to collapse of buildings.
23/08/2023, 5:24 pm - +Bhavani: There is no use creating sky high forests if the concrete buildings end up collapsing.
23/08/2023, 5:25 pm - +Frankie Wee: I think advanced technology more safely. There will be more study researcher
23/08/2023, 5:25 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
My close friend comments:-
In urban planning, we have to consider the overall proximity of blocks and height.
In HK everywhere build up tall tall.
When standing at ground level, one hardly see the sky!!!
Like Chinese calligraphy and painting, the aesthetic part takes into account 疏密.
23/08/2023, 5:25 pm - +Bhavani: We cannot keep placing a premium on technology when we are fighting with nature all the time.
23/08/2023, 5:26 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 5:26 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://www.capitaland.com/en/about-capitaland/newsroom/inside/2016/jan/inside-201601-a-blueprint-of-tomorrow.html
23/08/2023, 5:27 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
My close friend comments contradict mine.
But I will still post the comments to be objective.
23/08/2023, 5:27 pm - +Frankie Wee: This government don’t care upgrade and make it smaller space
23/08/2023, 5:27 pm - +Bhavani: We must understand that nature is superior to humans. Nature gives us fruits, herbs and vegetables unconditionally. Why must we always fight with nature and create concrete buildings in the place of nature?
23/08/2023, 5:27 pm - +Frankie Wee: The future is challenged AI technology
23/08/2023, 5:28 pm - +Frankie Wee: Economy will fast growth
23/08/2023, 5:28 pm - +Bhavani: Concrete buildings side by side instead of forests are so ugly
23/08/2023, 5:29 pm - +Bhavani: They cause so much heat and discomfort through the urban heat island effect
23/08/2023, 5:29 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://www.arlenerienekewrites.com/capitaland
23/08/2023, 5:29 pm - +Bhavani: We have been talking about economy forever. Now we must change the conversation to nature
23/08/2023, 5:30 pm - +Bhavani: We must respect nature and make Singapore the beautiful lush nature paradise it once was.
23/08/2023, 5:30 pm - +Frankie Wee: Old machine or new computer
23/08/2023, 5:31 pm - +Smiley face: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 5:31 pm - +Bhavani: Computer also pollutes the environment
23/08/2023, 5:32 pm - +Frankie Wee: I have see it before in HK live smallest or cage like grave
23/08/2023, 5:32 pm - +Mac: wow if that's the quality and standard of ntuc management
no wonder we are getting screwed
imagine if he become president
sg will become his harem
🤣
23/08/2023, 5:35 pm - +Frankie Wee: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-11-02/hong-kong-s-poorest-face-a-combined-housing-and-climate-crisis
23/08/2023, 5:35 pm - +Frankie Wee: Hong Kong don’t have any development housing when there is still crisis many year left undeveloped
23/08/2023, 5:37 pm - +Bhavani: Also building taller can lead to more fires
23/08/2023, 5:37 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
I also don't want Singapore to look like that.
23/08/2023, 5:39 pm - +~,@: 🤷🏻♂️
23/08/2023, 5:40 pm - +Coconut Tree: Everytime I see this I get damn suspicious of HK's building codes and whether they really follow.
23/08/2023, 5:44 pm - +Frankie Wee: One country, two system in China policy how it’s affect HK housing.
23/08/2023, 5:45 pm - +Frankie Wee: It’s not going to change development and better place for people to live and also jobs.
People still get allow government pension when they are no job.
23/08/2023, 5:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Coz Airspace or soil
23/08/2023, 5:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
They got this land utility value that predetermined the number of total units in the area le
23/08/2023, 5:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Around 2.sth
23/08/2023, 5:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
If existing surrounding estates already like 2+, the new plot cannot be like 3 or above one
23/08/2023, 5:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
This is what my son say above.
23/08/2023, 5:49 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 5:58 pm - +Bhavani: Singapore can be a role model for the world by avoiding building more and more concrete, and creating forests instead so that the world can follow in its path protecting the humans and animals of this precious world we live in. By avoiding overpopulation also, we can set a good example to the world.
23/08/2023, 6:00 pm - +Bhavani: Just imagine if we travel to other countries, and we see the same concrete and forest destruction all over the world, what an extremely sad sight and a waste of our travel.
23/08/2023, 6:01 pm - +Rama: Limited land competes for multiple uses so very tricky balance for all considerations.
23/08/2023, 6:01 pm - +Frankie Wee: This mean China one policy
Because of overpopulation billion of people. Marriage couples give born baby one
23/08/2023, 6:01 pm - +Bhavani: There wouldn't be anything more to see, only shopping and consumerism which in turn will lead to more rubbish. This is already happening in many parts of the world.
23/08/2023, 6:02 pm - +REACH: 📢 *Topic* 📢
Following PM Lee’s speech at the National Day Rally on 20 August, Minister for National Development Desmond Lee shared on Monday (21 Aug) how the reclassification of HDB flats, which comes into effect in the second half of 2024, will help young couples hoping to buy affordable homes in good locations.
💬 *What are your views on the latest announcements by Minister Desmond Lee to make public housing more affordable and accessible?*
📌 *Resale Restrictions*
To keep the flats affordable beyond the first owners, there will be conditions for resale buyers to moderate demand and keep these homes affordable and inclusive over time. These conditions include a 30-months wait-out period for private property owners, as well as a household income ceiling for resale buyers. For Plus flats, this income ceiling is set at S$14,000 for both families and singles. This is the prevailing BTO income ceiling for married couples, which covers eight in 10 Singaporean households. The BTO income ceiling for singles is S$7,000.
Except for the subsidy recovery which will only apply to the first owners, these conditions will apply to subsequent buyers to keep flats affordable beyond first sale.
📌 *Standard, Plus and Prime*
Build-to-Order (BTO) projects will fall under three categories - Standard, Plus and Prime - from the second half of 2024. This replaces the mature and non-mature framework that has been around since the early 1990s.
Plus flats will be in choicer locations such as near transport nodes or town centres. They will come with more subsidies but also tighter resale conditions such as a minimum occupation period of 10 years before they can be put on the resale market. Similar to the rules for Prime flats, owners of Plus flats will be subject to a subsidy recovery at the point of first resale.
From the second half of 2024 onwards, the three ballot chances will apply for all Prime, Plus and Standard BTO projects. All other first-timers, such as those who may have owned private property and HDB resale flat owners who did not receive housing subsidies, will continue to get two ballot chances. Some of the first-timer families will get first priority when applying for four-room or smaller Standard Build-To-Order (BTO) flats across Singapore under the new flat classification, compared with just in non-mature estates.
📌 *EASE 2.0*
Seniors will also get more subsidised fittings under the Enhancement for Active Seniors 2.0 (EASE 2.0) programme to make it easier and safer for them to go about their daily activities within their homes.
These include rocker switches which are easier to see and press, smoke detectors, handrails at flat entrances, foldable shower seats and widened toilet entrances for wheelchair users.
👉 *Some first-timer families to get priority for Standard HDB flats across S’pore under new classification* https://str.sg/i5tU
👉 *$14k income ceiling for buyers of resale Plus flats*
https://str.sg/i5yz
👉 *Housing policy changes benefit singles who want to live near parents, but some say more can be done* https://cna.asia/45f06JB
23/08/2023, 6:02 pm - +Rama: You cannot always have your cake to eat your way
23/08/2023, 6:02 pm - +Frankie Wee: Certainly overpopulation need to development human capital
23/08/2023, 6:03 pm - +Frankie Wee: Live won’t alway the same when there is new way developed
23/08/2023, 6:04 pm - +Rama: China one policy child is creating problems for the economy
23/08/2023, 6:04 pm - +Bhavani: It's not about having my cake. It's about the health of people and animals I worry most about.
23/08/2023, 6:06 pm - +Rama: Mankind cannot control how much of human and animal to procreate for the right fit!
23/08/2023, 6:06 pm - +Bhavani: Several countries are grappling with fires due to climate change
23/08/2023, 6:07 pm - +Bhavani: If we destroy all the forests, we are all going to suffer
23/08/2023, 6:07 pm - +Rama: Our government is on top of things
23/08/2023, 6:07 pm - +Bhavani: Men and women must learn to control their economic appetite and let nature live too! <This message was edited>
23/08/2023, 6:08 pm - +Rama: Get yourself involved with the Singapore conversation and the forward Singapore dialogue to know how things will change.
23/08/2023, 6:09 pm - +Rama: Then, be God!
23/08/2023, 6:11 pm - +Bhavani: Please don't advise me what to do. I already keep myself updated <This message was edited>
23/08/2023, 6:12 pm - +Bhavani: I am not here to argue with participants here. I am only here to give feedback as Reach requested.
23/08/2023, 6:12 pm - +Rama: Your update is back dated.
23/08/2023, 6:12 pm - +Rama: Your request is not practical given our limited resources to deal with.
23/08/2023, 6:13 pm - +Bhavani: Could you please stop advising me?
23/08/2023, 6:14 pm - +Rama: Fair comment I see it as
23/08/2023, 6:14 pm - +Bhavani: You only keep commenting on what I say
23/08/2023, 6:15 pm - +Bhavani: Like you are here to argue with me each time I come online on Reach
23/08/2023, 6:15 pm - +Rama: Non practical proposal needs to be rebuted
23/08/2023, 6:15 pm - +Bhavani: It's because of put me downs by some participants that it's been a long time since I came to Reach
23/08/2023, 6:16 pm - +Frankie Wee: Learn to share idea
23/08/2023, 6:16 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 6:16 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 6:16 pm - +Bhavani: This is not a rebuttal forum
23/08/2023, 6:16 pm - +Rama: Accept constructive comments
23/08/2023, 6:17 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
These are 2 pieces of barren land for Serangoon vista BTO flats.
Now only can circumbulate these place.
For peace.
With walking meditation enjoying its serenity... <This message was edited>
23/08/2023, 6:17 pm - +Rama: Traffic is not one way
23/08/2023, 6:17 pm - +Frankie Wee: This one flat is HDB?
23/08/2023, 6:17 pm - +Bhavani: You seem to be targeting only me each time I come online
23/08/2023, 6:17 pm - +REACH: Dear contributors,
let’s be courteous to one another so that we can have a conducive discussion
Megan 😊
23/08/2023, 6:18 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
No this is the new condo develop by a foreign developer.
23/08/2023, 6:18 pm - +Frankie Wee: Nice one
23/08/2023, 6:18 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Yes. Very nice.
23/08/2023, 6:19 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
I think it is call Affinity.
Another new condo opposite is call Garden Residence.
23/08/2023, 6:29 pm - +Suma pamu: The Plus flats may cause a big Minus, By Limiting Supply if MOP Flats, So the current million dollar flats, will become Million plus,.
2. Having Income ceiling is good idea, along with 30 month waiting period,
Again This rule only followed by singaporeans strictly,
(Does HDB knows how many PRs got Overseas properties before buying resale(Bto with Sg spouse HDB/or during MOP) this loop hole still will continue.
3. Where exactly the Plus flats will be, does whole estate comes in it example Bishan, or only near MRT with in 1km?
4. In a Layman perspective the changes looks Non inclusive rather than Inclusive.
(Becz One can Boost that they live in Prime Area, as if its the entitlement,
Isn't it how the schools became,? )
5. Its still long way to Think about Resale of these flats, but What about current Resale prices, keep going higher, what measures govt will take?
6. EASE 2.0 measures are good, but what about pedestrian bridges with no Lift and no escalators?
Why These lifts i find in Rich aread with Condos/Ecs but not near HDBS (observed many times, though i may be wrong?)
Also what about those hdbs with No Lifts all units? (In Bishan north many Hdbs do not have lifts to every floors, they announced HIP and EASE, But without Lift to every unit, what's the point of EASE?)
23/08/2023, 6:32 pm - +Rama: Lifts to every floor in a hdb block is sometimes constrained due to building structure. EASE programme expanded to help elderly with mobility issues within the home.
23/08/2023, 6:33 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 6:33 pm - +Suma pamu: Yes i know its constrained, so these blks shld be rebuilt instead of spending on these hdbs again and again!
No point of spending milion dollors for ease when there is no lift access.
23/08/2023, 6:34 pm - ☸️ Danny 心: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 6:34 pm - +Rama: At what cost to the government and inconvenience to residents?
23/08/2023, 6:35 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
New condo garden residence condo, besides one big piece of empty land - Kensington park condo.
23/08/2023, 6:35 pm - +Rama: In a recent national day rally speech, our PM extremely limited vacant land for housing!
23/08/2023, 6:37 pm - ☸️ Danny 心:
Kensington park condo enbloc twice asking I think for a ridiculous price - something like $1 billion.
Twice fail.
They now wait for paya lebar airport to move out so that can build taller.
Then maybe enbloc price $1 billion possible.
23/08/2023, 6:45 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
⏰ We will be closing the chat in *15 minutes* ⏰
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan 😊
23/08/2023, 6:46 pm - +Rama: Good night Megan🥱😴😮💨
23/08/2023, 6:50 pm - +Frankie Wee: Goodnight get well sleep 😊
23/08/2023, 6:55 pm - +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/z2Fy4e-ZUb8
23/08/2023, 6:58 pm - +Smiley face: https://www.neom.com/en-us
23/08/2023, 7:00 pm - +REACH: *Dear Contributors,*
We will be closing the chat for today.
Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.
Goodnight!
Megan 😊
23/08/2023, 7:00 pm - +REACH: <Media omitted>
23/08/2023, 7:02 pm - ~ REACH Singapore changed this group's settings to allow only admins to send messages to this group
====
