REACH 312 - What are your views on the introduction of additional measures to bolster the security of digital banking? How can we be more vigilant, as more of our activities go digital? (SK)

21 Jan 2022 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:45 am, 21/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

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[10:00 am, 21/01/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢 

Banks in Singapore will have to put in place more stringent measures to bolster the security of digital banking, such as removing clickable links in SMSes or e-mails sent to customers, within the next two weeks.

These additional measures were introduced in view of the recent spate of SMS phishing scams targeting bank customers, the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) and the Association of Banks in Singapore (ABS) said in a joint statement on Wednesday (Jan 19).

💬 What are your views on the introduction of additional measures to bolster the security of digital banking? How can we be more vigilant, as more of our activities go digital?

The more stringent measures which banks will work to put in place in the next fortnight will lengthen the time taken for certain online banking transactions but also provide an additional layer of security to protect customers' funds, they added.

However, they also cautioned that customer vigilance remains key, as scammers are quick to adapt in targeting unsuspecting customers.

The new measures for banks include:

▶️ Removal of clickable links in SMSes and e-mails to customers

▶️ Dedicated customer assistance teams to deal with feedback on potential fraud cases

▶️ Setting a default threshold of S$100 or lower for funds transfer transaction notifications

▶️ Having a delay of at least 12 hours before activation of new soft token on mobile device

▶️ Notifications to be sent to existing mobile number or e-mail for requests to change these details

▶️ Cooling-off period before implementing requests to make key changes, such as contact details

👉🏻 https://www.straitstimes.com/business/banking/new-measures-introduced-to-beef-up-digital-banking-security-in-spore

👉🏼 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/police-warn-of-fake-bank-hotlines-in-google-search-advertisements-victims-lost-495000

👉🏻 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/4-common-types-of-scams-and-how-to-recognise-them

👉🏻 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/imda-urges-more-banks-to-sign-up-with-anti-sms-spoofing-registry-to-combat-scams

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[10:01 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Fake CPF email.

 

[10:02 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Authentic CPF email

 

 

 

[10:02 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Difference between a fake site and the real site:-

1. Fake site :- CB

Real Site :- CPF logo

2. Fake site :- CPF Board

Real Site :- CPF Board <intouch@e.cpf.gov.sg>

3. Fake site :- CPF Board

Real site :- CPF logo

4. Fake site :- Password login (DOB + last 4 characters NRIC).

Link expires on ...

Real site :- Singpass required.

Note:- Almost all REACH participants think is a real site.

All if use the "CPF" email will "Kenna scam".

[10:04 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

One more local financial institution come under phishing scam attack - GE.

Because GE uses Singpass for SSO sign on. If compromise, will means hackers can access all government website.

 

 

 

 

[10:04 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Received so many fake SMS from Great Eastern.

GrtEastern - Authentic.

Grt Eastern - fake.

[10:04 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

One more local financial institution come under phishing scam attack - GE.

Because GE uses Singpass for SSO sign on. If compromise, will means hackers can access all government website.

 

 

[10:05 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Check the digital certificate to see if the website is authentic before key in all the user credentials and details.

[10:05 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Issue by:- is the CA (Certificate Authority) that issue the authentic digital certificate.

[10:09 am, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: These are good first steps, but more needs to be done. For example, credit cards should have more security features, like requiring a PIN (or some other additional layer of verification) instead of just tapping on the card readers.

The SPF should also take reports more seriously.

I personally had made reports to the SPF in the past about SMS/chat messages which are obvious scams - not just Bank related phishing attempts - and the SPF did not even acknowledge/respond. I had to call to follow-up a couple of times before the SPF grudgingly told me that all they "can" do, is ask the telco to deactivate the number that the scammers used to send the messages. And that is IF they decide to investigate, and IF they establish that it is a fraud. If it is a foreign number, "there is nothing they can do".

The SPF's attitude towards this plays a part as well. Obviously, crooks are emboldened by the SPF's laissez-faire attitude.

[10:11 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Also banks like DBS, OCBC are also using digital token - a soft token. Not hard token.

Only Maybank still using hard physical token.

[10:12 am, 21/01/2022] +BL: This looks like an email on a mobile phone, which is formatted differently to the email you show on a desktop. The logo isn't there because logos are dependent on having the sender in your contact list, when its on a mobile, for example.

[10:13 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Government, CPF only use Singpass.

They don't use dob + IC.

There are also no expiry of link.

[10:13 am, 21/01/2022] +BL: All property, including money in your bank account, is at risk. Educating the public is the right approach, not making life difficult for everyone by adding overly complex measures and hardware devices.

[10:14 am, 21/01/2022] +BL: How many locks on your front door? How many cameras in your house? More means safer, yes. But let's be realistic

[10:14 am, 21/01/2022] +BL: Yes, this is good to educate the public about

[10:15 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Singpass is the SSO mandate for all government website.

[10:15 am, 21/01/2022] +BL: Sms is old tech and should be expired

[10:15 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

SSO Single Sign On.

[10:15 am, 21/01/2022] +BL: 2FA with an Autheticator app is simple and secure.

[10:16 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Digital token can be hijacked because it is a soft token.

This is what happens to OCBC digital token.

[10:20 am, 21/01/2022] +BL: Hardware tokens can also he rendered useless. Both hardware and soft tokens rely on the server side security

[10:22 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Software token can be stolen online.

Hardware token cannot.

But big adminstrative problem to manage and costly.

[10:33 am, 21/01/2022] +BL: Yes,and if the server is hacked then doesn't matter if token is hard or soft

[10:35 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

ACS access control server that manage 2FA are installed oob out of band - inaccessible by internet hackers.

They are access only via onsite.

Cannot compromise ACS servers.

Unless design flaw or installation flaw.

[10:37 am, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: i think the difference is that with a soft token, the security is less tight since vulnerabilities at the enduser side will likely be easier to exploit.

The trade-off is convenience and cost.

Every layer of security has its own loopholes/vulnerabilities, hence the need for multiple layers that overlap to make it less easy to exploit. Unfortunately, there is no single fool-proof solution to any problem.

[10:40 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Digital token, Singpass are installed from Google playstore.

Once hackers capture a user credentials, it key in to the digital token and the hacker hijack user soft token to login.

[10:49 am, 21/01/2022] +jimmy chew: Until hackers gain Access 🤣

[10:51 am, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: I understand what you are saying about the soft token vulnerabilities...

The trade-off versus hard tokens, is convenience and cost.

Since this is not the only security feature, I am more for the retention of soft tokens (rather than revert to multiple hard tokens).. but perhaps we can have an added layer of security on top of that? Eg. an personal alpha-numeric password which needs to be used in conjunction with the randomly generated soft token PIN? or facial recognition/finger print which our phones can now handle easily? Or at some stage in the near future, retina scans? 

There is no fool-proof solution.. and security/verification processes will have to evolve alongside hacker/scammer sophistication. Laws/regulations also have to be updated so that the penalties are sufficiently [unitive for not only the scammers, but also the people aiding them, a lot of whom will probably be insiders. 

I personally had encountered an unauthorised credit card charge on a new card that I had never even used before and never been activated. The only way I can think of -  I may be wrong - is that someone on the inside had access to the clients' card info and had sold info to hackers/scammers.

[10:54 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Eg. User key in detail in fake CPF website or GE website.

Hacker then use the credentials to key in Singpass download from Google playstore.

Hacker taker over user soft token and access all government website, GE etc that uses Singpass.

[10:55 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

15 minutes job.

[10:57 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

So DBS, OCBC digital token can also be stolen likewise.

[10:58 am, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: I think when setup digital token for Singpass mobile, a 2FA will be send via the registered mobile number

[11:00 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

If the hacker can spoof the SMS using the user phone number, then the SMS OTP also hijack.

SMS OTP is not encrypted. It is in the clear.

[11:00 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

The news articles say ss7 Telco network was spoof and SMS OTP stolen.

[11:04 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Land phone line cannot spoof unless tap.

Handphone using wireless 4g can be hijack by rouge base station.

Not sure how the hackers hijack the SMS OTP. If hacker use rogue base station - then they are no normal hackers.

But news say they use sophisticated software to hijack the SMS OTP using the user phone number.

[11:05 am, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: use this lor: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singpass-users-can-now-verify-identity-by-scanning-faces-or-sending-otps-to-another-user

[11:06 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Maybe this is safer.

But don't know yet with AI deepfake around.

[11:21 am, 21/01/2022] +Chua: I like physical token, 2FA.i feel safer and it should be promoted instead of promoting 2FA digitakal though mobile, although it so convenient.

[11:29 am, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Is it part of 2FA!?

[11:30 am, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: maybe a single hard token instead of multiple hard tokens for each bank? And requiring a PIN to access the token in case it is lost/stolen

[11:31 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Yes. They are part of 2FA.

But they are difficult to manage, distribute and run out of battery.

Physical token seems to be safer among all the current solution.

[11:32 am, 21/01/2022] +Rama: I believe they are using digital token from the bank app instead of Physical hard token.

[11:33 am, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: design it to be rechargeable maybe? makes upgrades and replacements costly and inefficient though 😅

[11:33 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Some banks like Maybank still using physical token.

DBS , OCBC switch to digital token.

[11:34 am, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Uob too

[11:34 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

You mean UOB use digital token?

[11:35 am, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Saw it on the app

[11:36 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

One do all follow.

Group think.

Need diversity.

[11:45 am, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Some may ask why digital token and SMS OTP can intercept by hackers but not physical token.

1. SMS OTP and digital token use user handphone number in which hackers can intercept.

2. Physical token key in random number from any devices eg. Notebook, smartphone, company pc  and internet with different IP address - that's why hackers cannot intercept.

Thus hard token is safer.

[0:14 pm, 21/01/2022] +RH: Your illustrations of real vs fake messages are clear examples of why and how ppl get duped. 

Aside from all the technical jargon and concerns over layers of security,  let's not forget tt this situation came abt because ppl are ignorant , or ppl do not know how to tell the difference btn wat's real and wat's not. 

These type of msg hv become very sophisticated - the hijackers know wat we look / dun look for.

For instance,  use of English language has to be near perfect.  

Layout of message / site has to look authentic. 

Having achieved these first 👆🏻two steps,  they then proceed to add on their other gimmicks to trick ppl into believing the message,  such as scare tactics,  comfort msg, promotions. 

Sori...  As a layman, when u read such msg,  and get lulled into thinking tt the msg is real,  

* How many of us wud bother to :

-- Look at Logos?

-- Chk website address ?

-- Notice the fine print eg. 

GrtEastern vs

Grt Eastern

????

-- Wud layman ppl know abt Digital Certificates? 

The vast majority of ppl r still not tt IT-savvy! 

So,  pls dun mind me. 

Go ahead w yr discussion on tokens,  2FA & wat not... 

But I think the bigger issue here also lies in Education of the public...  

And when we talk abt the public,  it wl get complicated becos ther r Seniors who r not so savvy, Seniors who are.

But even savvy individuals in their 30's,  40's hv fallen prey to such authentic-looking scams. 

How then can the public be taught or reminded abt,  say, 

* Wat to look for? 

* How to verify? 

such msg?

[0:16 pm, 21/01/2022] +RH: Can we block such messages on our email or hp,  since they r fr unknown sources? 

I personally had rcv the OCBC sms in Dec/Jan - abt 3 of them,  but I deleted them & called the bank.

[0:17 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: The sending of a password to a trusted number means both parties must be in close proximity or the same room? Otherwise, does it help to send sms to and fro the trusted person and the one using the government Web site?

[0:19 pm, 21/01/2022] +RH: Can Google,  Yahoo,  MSN n various email platforms block such unknown msg fr coming thru to the user?

[0:34 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Incredibly easy to spoof': How SMS scams work and what can be done.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/sms-phishing-scams-ocbc-fake-messages-2444446

[0:46 pm, 21/01/2022] +RH: While we're at it,  wat abt the telcos? 

Can they block such spam SMS from getting thru?  

Can they re look into their systems to add on a layer of security? 

Like, chk if number is unknown to user Or chk the qty of numbers tt the unknown number is sending to & set a limit...  Like What's App can forward only to 5 ppl at a time... 

Perhaps the telco can do sth like tt : if the number is sending to more than 5, deem it as a spam? 

Or add on tag msg like "This may be a spam msg. Pls verify before u click any links." 

after the spam msg is sent ?

Just some thots. 

It's abt time telcos also look into updating their systems to cater to the demands of a new world.  

Dun u think? 😉

[0:52 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: Iras warns of scam e-mail telling recipients to buy pass to receive funds from Bill Gates

The Inland Revenue Authority of Singapore (Iras) on Friday (Jan 21) warned of a scam e-mail where recipients are told to buy an "approval pass" to receive funds from billionaire Bill Gates.

The e-mail would purportedly be from Iras, signed off in the name of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue, Mr Ng Wai Choong.

More: https://str.sg/wA5d

[0:55 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Also user using different devices like hp, pc, notebook in different network - home, public, company, internet bar etc are issued with dynamic IP that are use once if using physical token.

Dynamic IP are issue by DHCP servers of different network that are used once.

So hackers cannot intercept physical token OTP random number because IP address are not static.

So hard token very safe.

[0:59 pm, 21/01/2022] +Alvin Lee: https://www.firstpoint-mg.com/blog/ss7-attack-guide/

SS7 attack guide.

[1:03 pm, 21/01/2022] +Alvin Lee: https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/how-to-spoof-sms-message-in-linux/

How to spoof sms message in linux.

[1:04 pm, 21/01/2022] +Alvin Lee: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/sms-phishing-scams-ocbc-fake-messages-2444446

[1:05 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: I wonder if the situation is considered drastic enough for MAS to implement currency controls like China.  People cannot suka suka transfer SGD to other currencies in large amounts out of the country.  As long as money stays in SG, our G will be able to retrieve the scammed money and therefore the general public will feel safer.

[1:07 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Food for thought!

[1:13 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Sure have financial services and commerce collapse... why not? 😂

[1:14 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: all because a small % of our people have itchy fingers resulting in (less than) 10m in losses last month.. why not 😂

[1:16 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: must examine all possibilities to save the general public mah.  The financial services and commerce sectors wont die so easily one.  But general public has been shedding tears of blood when their life savings gone leh

[1:18 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Our G and China G has always maintain good relationship, so no harm in exchanging points on this matter mah.  We dont have to 100% adopt their method, our G+MAS can adjust accordingly to suit our security needs.

[1:19 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: you sound like you have no idea how Global transactions and basic cross border commerce works ... do you even know where the food on your table comes from? If $ cannot flow out - to pay overseas suppliers - and we produce only a miniscule proportion of our daily food/necessities in Singapore... then seriously .. I think losing $ to scammers is the least of our worries

[1:20 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: hmm... what magical process are you thinking that China is implementing that no one else is?

[1:20 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: why u think money cannot flow out? My China customers has been paying me just fine.

[1:21 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: You obviously have only been doing this for a short time 😂

[1:22 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: other than processing Payment receivable orders .... would be good to understand how Global Money transfer/flows work

[1:23 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: if more than 20 years is a short time, okay

[1:23 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: wow.. and yet after all this time, you still have no idea how it works 🤦‍♂️

[1:24 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: As our late founding PM once said- we don't copy everything we observe from other countries .

[1:27 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: no 2 countries are same same, of course cannot copy blindly. Our G and MAS can just reference and then adjust our current controls.

[1:27 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: I think it would be cheaper to just reimburse the losses, than do what you are proposing ... oh wait.. that exactly what OCBC did ... hmmm....

[1:27 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: seems like it works to the advantage of the scammers so far

[1:28 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: as long as the general public is protected, the banks can do what they want with their money

[1:29 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: but if the general public is not protected, then....how can

[1:29 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Cannot do capital control.

Singapore is a financial hub.

Once done, economy collapse.

China is a big country and manufacturing hub.

They are different.

[1:30 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Yes

[1:31 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Some experts are saying banks should not be held accountable still if no fault on their part in light of the recent goodwill payments.

[1:31 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

We are managing 3.5 to 4 trillion now 

If we impose capital control, we lose our financial hubs status.

All finance and investors will leave - and massive job loss - because investment profit cannot be taken out.

[1:32 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: For large corporations, they can continue to do what they need to do.  But for individuals, whereby they do not trade with overseas, citizens should be able to not fear for their life savings.

[1:32 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Individual are big bosses as well.

[1:32 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: SIDC possibly needs to be relooked and strengthen.

[1:34 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Big bosses should have registered companies/organisation bank accounts, can dont not use personal account to move large sums of money, right?

[1:36 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: (less than) 10million last month ... versus 1.16 TRILLION in imports/exports value in 2021 .... if you still think what you are suggesting makes sense .. then really there is nothing more for me to say 😂

[1:39 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: u really shouldnt say anything anymore bcos u have no clue of :-

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind: 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views.

[1:41 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Personal is personal.

Business is business.

It don't mix.

Else cad come to investigate.

[1:45 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Eg I own shares in Singtel.

I can't use Singtel business account to transfer my money outside right?

Else cpib or cad come to ask me to drink coffee.

Isn't it?

[1:48 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: i think there has to be a balance and everyone recognising that this is a shared responsibility. 

Making either side sole responsible for security will lead obvious negative outcomes.

Importantly, we need to also recognise the increasing sophistication of scammers as well as the penetration of Tech/AI into our daily activities.

The problem we face today, is partly because IT security is lagging developments elsewhere. It is not just in cyber-security itself, but also in human behavioral science, data collection/data sciences etc. The increasing pace of implementation of ever more sophisticated technology to raise productivity, reduce costs, improve convenience/UX, allows bad actors to exploit the gap between the Tech, and the end-user.

It is a step in the right direction that our Govt is working with our Banks to urgently look into bridging this gap, but I hope it will be a sustained effort rather than a once and done. It is unlikely enforcement will be ahead of the crooks, but hopefully we are never too many steps behind.

[1:49 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Nòteď

[1:51 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: For those who fear internet banking, there is the option to cancel internet banking access, go back to passbook banking - don't even use ATM card, because, yhou know, can be cloned easily - stand in line at the Bank branches\ to withdraw cash and buy only from brick-and-mortar retailers.

[1:52 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Yes

[1:53 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: What? Hackers nowadays only hit personal/individual accounts? That's news to me 😂

[1:56 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: My point is that personal accounts of the general public needs more protection.

[1:56 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: I can't help you if you feel disrespected because I am explaining to you why your thoughts may be misguided/incomplete/naive... unfortunately thesaurus does not offer "kind" alternatives to those words.. maybe they don't exist.. can't be 100% sure.. not that smart myself 🤷‍♂️

[1:59 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: and for those who can't follow simple instructions like don't click on any and every link.. the best protection for them is to go offline .. use a passbook.. queue up at the Branch to withdraw cash .. use cash, go shop, buy. 

For the rest, remember that danger is omnipresent, exercise more caution, and get on with life .. hopefully move forwards and not back into the stone ages

[2:00 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

I don't disagree.

Government should look into it.

[2:02 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: i think when we say more protection.. part of that, is in education as well. People need to be equipped with the knowledge. To learn to identify red flags and take personal responsibility for security as well. The strongest defense is still only as strong as the weakest link.

[2:03 pm, 21/01/2022] +RH: 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[2:03 pm, 21/01/2022] +RH: 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[2:07 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Education and knowledge is important to fight against hackers.

[2:07 pm, 21/01/2022] +RH: Just to add on... 

Telcos & email platform providers can also look into using keywords to identify if the msg r scam msg..  

If they r so clever in being able to identify our shopping habits on e-commerce, surely,  they can use similar techniques to suss out the scamming msg b4 they're sent thru  ... 😳

I think they just dun wanna spend money...  which is not the 'right' thinking... 

Whatever happened to Customer Service? 

This shd still apply even tho we r now talking abt Digital Age.  ....

[2:10 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Looks like u need help.  Maybe u have no respect for opinions that differ from yours and enjoy a good laugh to put your opinion above that of others.  U are perhaps also incapable to "agree to disagree".  What is crystal clear is that u are unable to conduct yourself in a feedback group and adhere to :  

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind: 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views.

[2:11 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Agree

[2:19 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: You are right. 

Now, lets hear you say the same..... or do you intend to double down on the "stop $ from flowing out of SG" idea

[2:25 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: of course, cannot STOP money movement in and out of the country lah.  But cannot let the scammers suka suka move money out of SG and out of the legal reach of our G/Interpol.

[2:27 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: The scammed money moved out of SG not pocket change, it is large sums of money

[2:29 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Law of diminishing returns...and also cost and effect .. 

I shall not attempt to explain nor elaborate in case you think I am being disrespect. Also, hope I am not being unkind by not explaining/elaborating.

[2:30 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: u dont need to explain anything

[2:30 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: I am just providing feedback to Reach.

[2:32 pm, 21/01/2022] +Valli: Thanks for the info 

Luckily I did not click on the link

[2:44 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: If you haven't realised, this is a discussion forum. 

If you want to only send feedback - and not risk someone else commenting about your comment - then I think the more appropriate/safer channel is 👇

https://www.reach.gov.sg/feedback#:~:text=If%20you%20have%20attachments%20for,you%20have%20submitted%20this%20form.

Don't worry, this link is legit, you can click on it....or..... 😱

Whenever I post a comment in a groupchat/forum, I am prepared for disagreeements/feedback.. and even ridicule. Especially that last one... it is this, that makes me perform at least some basic factchecking before I blast a comment off. I still get a lot wrong. And I am thankful for anyone who corrects my mistake/misconceptions/misinterpretations etc. No hard feelings. I would rather be corrected early, than to go through life thinking I am right because I stop anyone from telling me otherwise.

Maybe that's why I never feel the need to copy and paste REACH forum Rule 1 as a response to anyone's comments.

[2:46 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: New year and we are behaving still like!?

[2:47 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: then u should start reading properly, I never say "stop $ from flowing out of SG", I said "I wonder if the situation is considered drastic enough for MAS to implement currency controls like China.  People cannot suka suka transfer SGD to other currencies in large amounts out of the country.  As long as money stays in SG, our G will be able to retrieve the scammed money and therefore the general public will feel safer.

[2:48 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: jumping to conclusion and making nasty remarks is not nice.

[2:49 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: When Andrew does not agree with someone, he is nice about it.  U might wanna learn from him

[2:52 pm, 21/01/2022] +Valli: Even India has restrictions in place

[2:52 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: New Year .. so hoping to set the record straight.

I don't know any of you here.. so my comments are directed at the comment itself... but I see many people taking it personally when their "precious" comments/ideas are challenged/corrected.

Sure, sometimes I am intentionally sarcastic, but that is part of language no? How else to express disagreement and (sometimes) disgust? 😂

[2:53 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♂️😟😔😞

[2:54 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: If you only want Andrew to respond to your comments, why don't you private chat him? 😂 or maybe, suggest to REACH that we all need to take a questionnaire before being added into the chat? Only certain "approved types" can join in?

[2:56 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: are u insisting on your own rules and refusing to accept:

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind: 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views.

[2:56 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Sorry mate .. just clarifying that .. in case people don't realise yet.. I am not the kind who sugar-coat my words 😂

[2:57 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: It's OK for me

[2:59 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: 👍

[2:59 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: see? This is what makes Andrew a valued person in this group

[3:00 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Andrew is not a yes man, he can agree to disagree.  And he is a kind and respectful person.

[3:00 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: He observes House Rule #1.

[3:02 pm, 21/01/2022] +Stella Yip: He also does not twist the words of others.

[3:02 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Luckily i don’t need validation from anyone in order to live on 😅

[3:06 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors, 

Please be reminded to keep to the topic that is being discussed. We have had good feedback from this group, and we hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Thank you!

Megan 😊

[3:09 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: oh.. so we were only off topic 🤔

[3:12 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Are you suggesting that i am twisting your words? I am outraged 😤… not 😂😂

[3:15 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: 😱😨🤣😅😂

[3:24 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Anyway, only you will know what you were really thinking when you made that statement. I am not here to prove anyone right or wrong, liar or not. 

I saw, interpreted your comments and responded. I don’t need you/anyone to agree. Whenever i respond, i hope for 1 of 2 outcomes (1) the person relooks at what they said to check if their comment is still valid and/or (2) the person responds with something that makes me check my own understanding/facts. 

No one has a monopoly on facts. Discussions where ideas/viewpoints are constantly challenged yield better outcomes than echo chambers.

[3:30 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Ok let us all take a break.

Count 10 deep breath.

And refocus on the topic.

[3:31 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: 🍴☕🥄🍽️🥛🍰

[4:00 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Very curious.

Scamshield apps seems to be available in iOS but not Android phone.

Wonder will scamshield  block off most phishing emails, SMS and malicious URL websites?

[4:07 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

All organisations should adopt anti-SMS spoofing measures, say cyber-security experts.

https://www.straitstimes.com/tech/tech-news/all-organisations-should-adopt-anti-sms-spoofing-measures-say-cyber-security-experts

[4:07 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Understand that scamshield app will appear for android sometime this year.

[4:09 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

I see.

But it will only protect the mobile phone users on SMS and telephone call.

Data traffic like web link, email maybe not protected.

Also notebook and PC users also not protected.

[4:11 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Details will be once its rolled out.  I expect to be similar for IOS.

[4:11 pm, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: Hope Gov can give press release on how businesses can sign up

[4:13 pm, 21/01/2022] +SL: Isn’t the SMS spoofing a 2009 technique?

[4:16 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Last time, when Telco voice call network is a separate entity from internet - no hackers want to hack SMS.

The moment when 3G and 4G network is invented - that not only transmit voice, but also data, image and video - hackers suddenly become interested to hack the unprotected SMS because banks start to use it for SMS OTP banking.

[4:23 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: ➡️Singapore likely to see 'significant' Omicron wave, measures in place to cut risks

More: https://str.sg/wAS5

➡️Now is not the time to gamble and remove Covid-19 vaccination differentiation measures: Ong Ye Kung

More: https://str.sg/wASS

➡️Group size for CNY remains at 5 people, Omicron surge likely to continue into February

More: https://str.sg/wASc

➡️Youths aged 12 to 17 must take booster to be fully vaccinated from March 14

More: https://str.sg/wASN

➡️Daily testing regime for VTL travellers stopped, no more need to report ART results

More: https://str.sg/wASq

➡️Isolation period cut from 10 days to seven days for those fully vaccinated against Covid-19

More: https://str.sg/wAST

➡️Businesses must prepare for Omicron's impact on manpower and operations

More: https://str.sg/wASG

[4:35 pm, 21/01/2022] +SL: Curious that SMS protocol vulnerability was not being discussed and fixed worldwide

[4:36 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: ➡️ Visits to hospital wards, nursing homes suspended for 4 weeks amid Covid-19 Omicron surge

More: https://str.sg/wASW

➡️ New VTL testing rules, suspension of hospital visits: New Covid-19 rules at a glance

More: https://str.sg/wASA

[4:36 pm, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: Go where and register? 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/imda-urges-more-banks-to-sign-up-with-anti-sms-spoofing-registry-to-combat-scams

[4:37 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: What?! Analysts say customers should not expect banks to reimburse their money lost in a scam!

SINGAPORE — OCBC bank's move to fully reimburse all its customers who were victims of a recent SMS phishing scam should not set a precedent for the banking industry, professionals in business, law and cybersecurity sectors said.They suggested instead that banks and the authorities could work together to come up with broad guidelines that set out the specific situations or parameters where reimbursements should be given to scam victims.

https://news.nestia.com/detail_share/8236651?media_type=1&nestiaShareChannel=whatsapp

[4:40 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Unless the whole world throw away the ss7 Telco network and develop a new one - as the ss7 protocol is vulnerable.

Some Telco invented the VoIP using SIP and H.320 and H.323 protocol - riding on IP network.

They introduced encryption and authentication like in IP network.

But the world Telco did not pick it up in a big way.

[4:41 pm, 21/01/2022] +BL: Perhaps the Analysts should focus on helping banks to fix things on their side before making the victims feel bad and uneasy?

[4:42 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Good point

[4:45 pm, 21/01/2022] +SL: Ss7 protocol is without encryption, integrity validation, etc. Agree with you that too many telcos @ globe are not able to upgrade to a newer protocol

[4:46 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Just like oil company won't throw away oil and start to sell solar panels.

[4:51 pm, 21/01/2022] +Dan: The message is targeted at the scammers instead of the victims. Scammers should know that there are preying on people and cannot expect banks to bail them out all the time.

[4:52 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Yes

[4:56 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Eg. Zoom, Skype and other video conferencing system are using SIP, h.320, h.323 IP network.

Cisco, avaya, etc are using VoIP - SIP IP network.

But they are all big organisation.

Public like us use ss7 Telco network.

Cheap mah.

[5:00 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Omicron taking over Delta liao.

[5:14 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Lets not forget that the last step in the scam, is the enduser clicking on the link and providing the necessary information to login and steal the money.

It has to be a shared responsibility. If the onus/burden is placed only on 1 party and not the other, no amount of rules/safeguards will be enough to prevent another hack.

Making the banks solely responsible for the fraud will encourage and lead to the proliferation of moral hazard.

[5:16 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Everyone must play their parts.

Cannot be one party take all precaution but users keep making mistake.

[5:20 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: i have witnessed how an act of goodwill from a corporation - making good on a financial loss that a consumer incurred due to the consumer's own fault - open the floodgates to frivolous lawsuits on all kinds of unreasonable claims based on precedent. 

In the end, its not just the corporation that pays the price, but the consumers at large, because Corporations will be forced to institute more safeguards at ever increasing costs which eventually gets transferred to the end cleints/users in the form of higher charges. 

Better protection through Deposit insurance or similar saefty nets? Sure.. the banks will have to pay higher premiums to insurers providing the cover, and that, in turn, will be recovered from consumers through higher bank charges.

[5:21 pm, 21/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Agree.

[5:24 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Why are our Deposits only insured up to 50k? Why is deposit/savings rate so low? Why not insure the full amount? Will we be willing to PAY the bank a fixed rate to hold on to our money (safekeeping service)?

[5:28 pm, 21/01/2022] +65 9818 1463: Can bank discontinue the use of paywave feature in our ATM, debit and credit card as once you loss your card, anybody who pick up can just use it !!! Tap and go at the merchants outlet without checking the ownership of the card until one reported the lost !!!!

[5:30 pm, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: Customers can disable the paywave function by informing their banks

[5:30 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Agree

[5:31 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Got to relook goodwill gesture

[5:31 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: I believe it is being considered to be raised in due course

[5:32 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Worth considering

[5:33 pm, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: ART still a bit expensive, hope the price can even go downwards 

https://fb.watch/aGdQSMK532/

[5:36 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: Possibly to max at sgd3

[5:40 pm, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: +1

[5:43 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: ➡️ Children aged below 12 starting to make up the majority of Covid-19 cases admitted into hospitals

More: https://str.sg/wASH

➡️ MOH to stop differentiating between Omicron and non-Omicron cases in daily Covid-19 reports

More: https://str.sg/wASh

[5:43 pm, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: Only six organisations registered with it. 😂

https://www.straitstimes.com/tech/tech-news/all-government-agencies-to-be-on-anti-sms-spoofing-registry?utm_medium=social&utm_source=telegram&utm_campaign=sttg

[5:56 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: ➡️ All government agencies to be on anti-SMS spoofing registry after spate of scams

More: https://str.sg/wATk

➡️ OCBC introduces new security measures, including lower default PayNow amounts

More: https://str.sg/wATT

[5:59 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: Actually having experienced first hand an entire household coming down with CV19, my take is that the ART test kit and process is NOT a suitable tool for preventing spread. In fact, it may be the cause. Let me explain why.

When the member in my household started to exhibit flu-like symptoms, the person immediately did an ART test. It turned out NEGATIVE. The test was repeated the (within) every 24hr period (as prescribed). Although the symptoms escalated within the first 48hrs, the first 2 tests were NEGATIVE.

It was only on the 3rd day that the ART registered POSITIVE,

So, the problem with this is:

- Quite obviously, the person was already infectious when symptoms first presented, but the ART was still NEGATIVE during the initial 48 hrs. We know this because every member within my household, gradually - over the next few days - got infected despite our best efforts to isolate and segregate the moment the first POSITIVE ART test was registered.

The chronology was similar for all of us - mild symptoms (scratchy throat, mild fever, slight dry cough) started presenting within 48hr after last contact with confirmed case... BUT ART was negative for next 48-72hrs. Of course by now, we are aware that presenting mild flu-like symptoms + negative ART + last contact with confirmed case within 48hr period = most likely will test ART +ve within next 48hrs + already infectious and spreading the virus. So, from the 2nd member onwards, we started to isolate/segregate further.

So, the problem with the current protocol of "Negative ART result is good for 24hrs" is clearly giving everyone a false sense of security/safety which in fact may be the cause of a sudden wave of infections because people who are infections but ART -ve are unknowingly spreading the virus by being out and about (which the protocol allows).

[6:03 pm, 21/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/bnMMYJKZvnU

[6:04 pm, 21/01/2022] +Caleb: Maybe we got to learn once not well to onself isolation. Regardless is it covid or cold or other virus

[6:04 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: So, once we have established that the ART may be too slow to detect and prevent spread, maybe we can switch back to simple common sense - the moment you feel unwell/off, isolate/segregate. THEN arrange with a G/MOH approved clinic (costs covered by G/MOH) to see the doctor. He/She will decide whether to perform an ART or PCR test.

Once the test is conclusively positive, MOH will notify the patient via SMS with instructions to list household members/close contacts.

Everyone on that list, will be eligible to collect free ART test kits - no need to buy yourself.

But remember.. exercise common sense and err on the side of caution .. if feeling unwell, immediately self isolate first.

[6:05 pm, 21/01/2022] +BL: Friends were paying $150 in the US due to shortages!

[6:05 pm, 21/01/2022] +BL: Good example of why education is needed.

[6:06 pm, 21/01/2022] +Joseph: yup... that is the main take-away

[6:06 pm, 21/01/2022] +BL: 👍

[6:16 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: 😱😳😨🤦‍♀️😞😔😟

[6:17 pm, 21/01/2022] +BL: Yes that's a real scam. People who needed the test to catch a flight had to pay crazy money... that's Capitalist America for you!

[6:44 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors, 

It is everyone’s responsibility to make this online space a safe and conducive one for all contributors to share your views and feedback on national issues. Please be reminded of the Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms

Thank you. 

Megan

[6:48 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan

[6:48 pm, 21/01/2022] +Rama: No doubt

[6:58 pm, 21/01/2022] +Smiley face: 21 January, 2022

To: Distinguished MTF and All Honorable Members 

"From The Extremists To The Outliers - How nations play this pest control game? " 

"At the end of the day, is about headcount..." 

- - anonymous 

China ? 

In extreme, China 0 covid strategy, it has capacity to master thousands of resources and millions of test kits, nimble the O down to 0!

Many Nations ? 

So what's the middle path? 

The world is dealing with one big variable that is a quick, cunning and evolving virus (pest) , that itself is a catch-22! 

To chase this pest, one has to have mighty stamina, big heart and great wit just to run "on par" with it? To win this pest race, perhaps a wishful thinker will think so, for history have proven that pest of these sorts are hard to defeat, at best to kick it to a corner? 

A country partially open and the other half closed? What will other countries/global villagers perceive these midway strategies? Will it be viewed as smart, optimistic or cautiously optimistic towards these displays of the reality show, these case daily lives of a modern city. 

For the proper function of a typical daily normal living (rural village to mega city) can be defined as all most FREE from all inconveniences. How much one can stomach a blow or in multiple punches? These punches perhaps can meant as one's capacity to withstand these blows given a fix time line. No path is safe, these instances being an extremist or sitting on the fence or standing outside the fence, the later will at most be seen to be a safe bet for winner or loser, big or small, time will tell! 

Brazil ? 

This mambo jumbo, its President even encouraged natural infections to ride out the covid wave? 

South Africa ? 

Perhaps an outlier,  self declaring the end of the O, thousands strolling, suntanning along sandy beaches and drinking cocktails!

Afterwords:

The metaphoric game of an American/ European/Asian roulette - 

All players gather, eyeball and spread his/her wagers (from 1 chip to high stack of chips; side bets allowed) of up to 20% positions on the table and forgo his/her lucky hand on the 80% most unlikely to win at the same time the probabilities of the number 0 for a freak outcome which yield 35 times payout!

In a zero sum game experiment, a player could placed all his/her chips and spread across 50% in various bet configurations, the outcome will be a net lost after minus his initial wagers. In worse case this player will walk away from the table empty pocket. 

What it takes to win? Smart, timing & frequency, positioning, risk taking, good maths, forecasting or pure luck to beat this roulette game coming out as one of the winners? 

How about being an extreme player (seasoned & old hands 老手) or follow (mitigator 缓解) that "lucky" few or abstain (beginners 初学) for a few rounds? 

How about scaling up to hundreds of roulette tables? This scale up model can be applied to a country's segment of economy and also competitive nations at large. What's the dynamics and outcomes?  What's the profile of of each loser and the stakes? How about that few winners and their formula in gaming it? 

ONE big variable risk is zero, few winners and many walked away pockets emptied? 

(Disclaimer - Not promoting the game of chance and do not gamble! ) 

News:

https://youtu.be/bnMMYJKZvnU

https://youtu.be/CxF9HrG9Jzs

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/1448-new-covid-19-cases-in-spore-infection-growth-rate-rises-to-176

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/no-serious-adverse-events-associated-with-covid-19-vaccine-reported-for-children-between-5-to-11-years-old

https://youtu.be/r9iiQKhnj1Q

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/chinas-covid-scare-over-post-171148761.html

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00090-3/fulltext

https://twitter.com/bmj_latest/status/1483086712532348931?s=20

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/10/covid-vaccine-pfizer-ceo-says-omicron-vaccine-will-be-ready-in-march.html

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/companies-markets/cruise-operator-genting-hong-kong-files-to-wind-up-company

[6:59 pm, 21/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

======

REACH 311 - Have you taken your booster shot? If not, why? How can the non-vaccinated adults and seniors better protect themselves and stay safe, besides having Vaccination Differentiated measures (VDS) at public spaces? (SK)

17 Jan 2022 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:54 am, 19/01/2022] +65 8637 0487: Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind: 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment.

4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.

5. Let’s protect each other’s privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

[9:59 am, 19/01/2022] +65 8637 0487: 📢 Topic 📢 

With new COVID-19 variants such as Omicron surfacing, full vaccination will have to include booster shots as well. Over half, or 51 per cent, of the total population in Singapore have taken their booster shots, Health Minister Ong Ye Kung said in a Facebook post marking the milestone on Sunday (Jan 16). 

Noting that more individuals are stepping forward for COVID-19 vaccine boosters, Mr Ong said: "Now, about 42,000 individuals are getting boosted a day. This is a stark increase from 25,000 daily in mid- to late December. Boosters restore vaccine protection against COVID-19 infection and severe illness from Omicron."

💬 Have you taken your booster shot? If not, why? How can the non-vaccinated adults and seniors better protect themselves and stay safe, besides having Vaccination Differentiated measures (VDS) at public spaces?

A person's fully vaccinated status will lapse nine months after the last dose of their primary vaccination series, said the Ministry of Health on Wednesday (Jan 5). It added that from Feb 14, Singapore will require those aged 18 and above to get a COVID-19 booster jab to maintain one's fully vaccinated status. Singapore is bracing itself for a large Omicron wave that could see a peak of 15,000 cases a day in the worst-case scenario.

The Life Insurance Association, Singapore (LIA) said on Monday (Jan 17) all Integrated Shield Plan (IP) policyholders will remain covered for COVID-19 vaccination complications that result in hospitalisation until the end of 2022. The initiative supports the ongoing COVID-19 vaccination and booster immunisation programme and will apply to all IP policyholders who received the Pfizer-BioNTech/Comirnaty, Moderna and Sinovac vaccines under the national vaccination programme.

👉🏼 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/over-half-of-spores-population-has-been-boosted-with-about-42000-getting-covid-19-shots-daily

👉🏼 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/booster-shot-must-be-taken-within-270-days-after-2nd-dose-to-remain-fully-vaccinated

👉🏼 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/integrated-shield-plan-extends-coverage-for-covid-19-vaccine-complications-till-dec-31

👉🏼 https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/exception-to-enter-vaccination-differentiated-places-for-recovered-covid-19-patients

------

[10:33 am, 19/01/2022] +Caleb: make them pay additional taxes like some other countries

[10:33 am, 19/01/2022] +Caleb: for non-vaccinated adults

[10:34 am, 19/01/2022] +BL: I have had my booster, although feedback from friends who are reluctant, say that 1) they just think there will be another booster in 6 months, 2) that the new variant isn't so bad, 3) they heard side effects are much worse - all emotional thoughts that don't reflect evidence. Losing Vaccinated status is simply the most effective way to get people to have their booster. As for protecting those that don't want to, this is the same as the previous conversation about how to get people to vaccinate....

[10:35 am, 19/01/2022] +BL: Italy now mandates the Vaccine for over 50's: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/05/italy-makes-covid-vaccinations-compulsory-for-over-50s

[10:39 am, 19/01/2022] +Elena Woo: The problem is how about those vaccinated and recovered from covid? Do they still need a booster? If they don't need a booster, why is then their vaccination status prompted to be reverted?

[10:40 am, 19/01/2022] +Angelica: i think those vaccinated and recovered from covid have a certain period before they need to take booster.

[10:41 am, 19/01/2022] +Elena Woo: It followed based on 2nd dose, i think. But recovered from covid only in Nov last year.

[10:41 am, 19/01/2022] +BL: Fair point - people also say, I've survived Covid why do I need a booster? Forgetting that people have a flu jab every year despite having previously had the flu.

[10:41 am, 19/01/2022] +Elena Woo: So it still prompted to revert status by Feb

[10:42 am, 19/01/2022] +Elena Woo: MOH faq says no need booster but tracetogether says otherwise. It is confusing

[10:42 am, 19/01/2022] +Angelica: isit? because my friend who vaccinated around same time as me but got covid after the 2nd jab has not received promting for booster

[10:42 am, 19/01/2022] +Elena Woo: So need or don't need?

[10:42 am, 19/01/2022] +Elena Woo: 🤷🏻‍♀️

[10:43 am, 19/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00090-3/fulltext

[10:43 am, 19/01/2022] +Angelica: hmm yea but thats annual vax. now our vax is half yearly.. q a difference

[10:44 am, 19/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.dw.com/en/covid-do-multiple-boosters-exhaust-our-immune-response/a-60447735

[10:48 am, 19/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://twitter.com/bmj_latest/status/1483086712532348931?s=20

[10:50 am, 19/01/2022] +BL: Might be true, but what do we do in the meantime while those new vaccines are developed?

[10:53 am, 19/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/r9iiQKhnj1Q

[10:55 am, 19/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/10/covid-vaccine-pfizer-ceo-says-omicron-vaccine-will-be-ready-in-march.html

[0:17 pm, 19/01/2022] +RH: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/askst-what-you-need-to-know-about-boosters-and-when-your-fully-vaccinated-status-will-expire

[0:20 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Covid vaccine programs could end with third dose for most people, Israeli doctor predicts

PUBLISHED TUE, JAN 11 20222:19 AM EST 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/11/covid-vaccine-programs-could-end-with-third-dose-israeli-doctor-says-.html

[0:20 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/fourth-jab-only-partially-effective-against-omicron-israeli-study

Fourth jab only 'partially' effective against Omicron: Israeli study.

4th dose not necessary.

3 dose good enough.

[0:36 pm, 19/01/2022] +XaniceAfcai: Understand the jab will be lapse. After 9mth. 

Not sure how gov is gg to address these grp of 12 to 17 yr old who have taken the first 2 jab. They are not scheduled/invited to continue any booster jab. 

So After their 9mth of last jab, will their vaccination status change n are they still allow into the vaccinated measures aat public places.

[0:41 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

There are 3 lines of defence:-

1. Anti-bodies

2. B-cell

3. T-cell.

Anti-bodies will wane after sometime.

B-cell the memory cell will not. It will activate the bone marrow and immunity system to produce T-cell to attack all variants of coronavirus virus such as SARS, mers, covid, Delta, Omicron etc as long as it is coronavirus.

3 dose jabs like hep b 3 dose jabs - produce superhuman immunity.

 

[0:44 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: This will be crazy.

[0:44 pm, 19/01/2022] +Rama: 😨😱😳🤣😅😂🤦‍♀️

[1:12 pm, 19/01/2022] +65 9675 5154: No serious side effects from Covid-19 jab reported among children aged 5 to 11: HSA

No serious suspected adverse events (AEs) associated with Covid-19 vaccine have been reported for children between 5 and 11 years old as at Dec 31, said the Health Sciences Authority (HSA).

It has received non-serious AEs such as hives, dizziness, fever and shortness of breath in the age group of five to 11 years, it said in a safety update on Wednesday (Jan 19).

More: https://str.sg/wQ9q

[2:07 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1,448 new COVID-19 cases in Singapore; 589 Omicron infections confirmed.

Big spike in infection. Hitting the 1000 threshold.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/covid-19-new-cases-omicron-jan-18-moh-icu-hospital-2442601

[2:10 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

3 jab vaccination - good enough to keep Omicron and Delta subdue.

It will be a good Superhuman Immunity to keep the covid mild.

[2:12 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

With Omicron, infection cases go up.

[2:13 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

But hospitalisation number, oxygen support, ICU and death go down

[2:14 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Thus 3 jab vaccination including booster is good enough to keep the Delta and Omicron mild or asymptomatic.

[4:15 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Another phishing scam.

Be careful.

[4:17 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

CPF please inform public is this another phishing attempt.

[4:18 pm, 19/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Err not real serious? I always thought this is real

[4:19 pm, 19/01/2022] +Soon: Tot this is a legit one.

[4:19 pm, 19/01/2022] +Ken Loh: 😅😅😅

[4:19 pm, 19/01/2022] +Riviere Condo: This is real

[4:19 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Don't know.

CPF got to tell us legit or not.

[4:19 pm, 19/01/2022] +Umar M: What are you talking about? This is legitimate!

[4:19 pm, 19/01/2022] +Umar M: Don't raise unnecessary alarm.

[4:19 pm, 19/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Err think so… how you know is fake who verify? 😅

[4:20 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Some people send me the message and say could be fake

[4:20 pm, 19/01/2022] +Umar M: I have personally checked with CPF myself and it's legitimate. Anyway you can always check your CPF if it's indeed credited.

[4:20 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Ok good

[4:21 pm, 19/01/2022] +Umar M: If in doubt no need to click the link. Can just go to CPF website and login separately.

[4:21 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

I don't click on email or SMS link.

I go to the authorised website to access directly.

If in doubt, I call up the organisation to check.

[4:22 pm, 19/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Then you shouldn’t have say is fake mah 😒

[4:22 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Ok my mistake.

[4:22 pm, 19/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Verify… unless you just want to ask REACH.

[4:23 pm, 19/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Thanks

[4:23 pm, 19/01/2022] +JC: 🤦‍♂️

[4:24 pm, 19/01/2022] +Linda: Starting this year, yes we will receive this legit message from CPF board.

[4:25 pm, 19/01/2022] +Linda: He just forwarded this message…😅

[4:25 pm, 19/01/2022] +Rama: I get this in my e-mail but when click on the link, no scam as it shows the latest contribution by my employer

[4:27 pm, 19/01/2022] +JC: No QC.

[4:27 pm, 19/01/2022] +JC: But intention is good. 👍

[4:27 pm, 19/01/2022] +Linda: Yes intention is good

[4:39 pm, 19/01/2022] +Vivian: So this is not scam?

[4:42 pm, 19/01/2022] +Rama: No as I have been receiving and opening last few weeks.  Data in link with password access is accurate.

[4:50 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Just to share my experience.

1. Great Eastern send me a what seems to be a legit website.

2. I ask a few people, some say is legit, some say is fake.

3. I call up the Great Eastern customer service, they are not sure whether is legit or not.

4. They say don't click on it.

5. See whether can believe what seems to be a legit SMS or email - can we trust or not.

[4:51 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

I use a safe device to try on the what seems to be a legit link.

Pse see the result.

[4:54 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

So even the CPF email can be easily fake - with knowledge in:-

1. SMTP to masquerade CPF.

2. Create button or tab to link the http URL link.

The above email page can be easily masqueraded - and no one can tell whether it is real or fake.

[6:27 pm, 19/01/2022] +Rama: Not readable

[6:28 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: https://www.greateasterngeneral.com/sg/en/index.html - legitimate site.                                          sg.gelife.co - not legit site.

[6:33 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

CPF just email the above message to me.

There is indeed a scam message from CPF going around

[6:46 pm, 19/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan

[6:56 pm, 19/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

OCBC says all affected customers of recent SMS scam to get 'full goodwill payouts' covering the money lost.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/ocbc-sms-scam-phishing-full-sum-lost-goodwill-payouts-2445231

[6:58 pm, 19/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

=====

REACH 310 - What are your views on how Singapore can achieve an inclusive transition toward a low-carbon society? (SK)

17 Jan 2022 (10am - 7pm)

REACH

[9:46 am, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

Welcome back! 😊

⏰ We will be opening the chat from 10am to 7pm today. ⏰

House Rules (short version of our Terms of Use) to keep in mind: 

1. Be kind and respectful. We all want to be in a safe space to share our views. 

2. Any and all threatening, abusive, vulgar or racially, religiously and ethnically objectionable content is prohibited.

3. Consider the quiet ones among us and give them a chance to comment.

4. No need to repeat your comment or in different forms (including caps) - we heard you loud and clear the first time.

5. Let’s protect each other’s privacy and keep contact details in this group what it should always be - confidential. 

Full set of Terms of Use: https://go.gov.sg/reach-whatsapp-terms

We will strive to uphold these rules to ensure this is a safe space for all.

Please be assured that the points made by participants during the chat are aggregated and shared with relevant agencies.

The topic will be posted shortly.

Thank you

Megan 😊

[10:00 am, 17/01/2022] +REACH: 📢 Topic 📢 

Helping Singapore businesses and workers grasp opportunities in the green economy was a key issue discussed in Parliament on 12 Jan (Wed), with MPs discussing ways to create more jobs in the sustainability sector and further the nation's ambitions to become a major green financial hub. 

💬 What are your views on how Singapore can achieve an inclusive transition toward a low-carbon society? 

Key points raised during the debate are as follows: 

Capitalising on the green economy 

Singapore aims to equip its workers with relevant skills so they can benefit from the green economy, said Mr Gan on 12 Jan. He noted that Workforce Singapore (WSG) is currently exploring a Career Conversion Programme (CCP) for sustainability professionals, while the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) is also setting up centres of excellence for training and research in green financing. 

"We are investing research and development resources into these areas, which we will need for our own living and livelihoods. In the process, we hope to build new economic engines out of them," added Mr Gan. 

Other suggestions from MPs included setting up a new academy to train local industry talents and enhancing sustainability education in IHLs. 

Increased carbon tax 

Increasing Singapore’s carbon tax - a price paid by firms for greenhouse gas emissions - will incentivise companies to decarbonise, but adjustments to the tax must be done carefully to give households and firms time to adapt and stay competitive, said Trade and Industry Minister Gan Kim Yong during the debate. 

Singapore's current carbon tax rate, which will be in place until 2023, is $5 per tonne of emissions. The revised rate for 2024 will be announced during next month's Budget. 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/wMDH 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/wMDu 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/wMD7 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/wYFH 

👉🏼 https://str.sg/3TtC

-----

[10:09 am, 17/01/2022] +BL: Good to see tax on carbon emissions. Step by step this will help bring fossil fuel energy prices in line with renewable energy prices. The fact is that we have been polluting the planet in the name of cheap energy and that has to stop.

[10:10 am, 17/01/2022] +BL: I see Singapore as a leader in making sustainable energy economically viable. Particularly in the food manufacturing industry, which will in turn help us become more independent on food supplies.

[10:21 am, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic 😊

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan

[10:28 am, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.ourfoodfuture.gov.sg/30by30

[10:29 am, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.mti.gov.sg/Newsroom/Speeches/2019/06/Speech-by-Minister-Chan-Chun-Sing-at-the-Singapore-Food-Expo

[10:37 am, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.iea.org/reports/world-energy-outlook-2021

[10:42 am, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/australianz/nz-pledges-to-cut-greenhouse-gas-emissions-by-50-by-2030

[10:43 am, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: https://youtu.be/7OpM_zKGE4o

[10:47 am, 17/01/2022] +JC: I hope the govt succeeds in leveraging this macro trend and create more good jobs for Singapore. 👍 All e best!

[11:25 am, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic 😊

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan

[11:54 am, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: Important to factor intangible assets and sustainability into a business' value: Indranee Rajah

https://www.straitstimes.com/business/economy/important-to-factor-intangible-assets-and-sustainability-into-a-business-value

[11:54 am, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: Singapore Green Plan 2030 to change the way people live, work, study and play

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/environment/singapore-green-plan-2030-to-change-the-way-people-live-work-study-and-play

[11:56 am, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic 😊

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan

[0:49 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic 😊

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan

[0:51 pm, 17/01/2022] +Caleb: Hopefully can diagnose with COVID via telemedicine soon too, no need to flood the GP clinics 

https://str.sg/wQeo

[0:57 pm, 17/01/2022] +Sugeng Shi: I think we can promote the carbon offset more actively. It doesn't seem to be embraced by the media. Personally I only see the SP Group promoting it in the app, but also very minimal. Somehow there is not enough awareness in the public, let alone the local communities. We can even see this group is pretty quiet. Must probably, people are not really familiar with the topic as compared to other more popular topics with many comments.

[0:58 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Electricity prices already increased and this will inflate cost of goods prices as well. People won't be able to take it esp when increase in gst as well. I suggest lower the cost of renewable energies.

[0:58 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: That would be even better, yes!

[0:59 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Wouldn't higher prices discourage wastage / encourage more conscious consumption?

[1:01 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: With singapore being a smart city and moving towards AI and robotics, there is little that can be done to conserve electricity and energy. Unless you want to switch all to manual labour again? Hence, electricity should be made even more affordable. Otherwise you cannot have to be a smart and digitalised society and yet reduce electricity and energy consumption.

[1:03 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: So moving towards greener energy - yes, but the cost of greener energy should be about 10% to 15% lower than current normal electricity rate. With our electricity powerhouses in the open market, more will likely convert to use green energy if the cost is cheaper.

[1:03 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Bicycle lanes, more MRT lines/stations and 2 examples where energy can be moved from cars into more efficient transport. There is a lot we can do!

[1:04 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Yes agreed, certainly not more expensive as it currently is

[1:04 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: More mrt lines will consume more energy too. Ebikes consume more energy too.

[1:04 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: With smart homes every where and robotics involved in cleaning offices and homes, these depend on electricity too

[1:04 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Not in the long term. Ebikes use less energy than a car.

[1:05 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: But they still consume electricity and it goes back to consumer who pays for electricity

[1:05 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Smart homes need tiny amount of energy and its offset by better energy management, eg air con.

[1:05 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Yes everything consume energy,  even people! But some things consume less than others, that's the point.

[1:05 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Still as compared to manual switch, it eats electricity on 24/7 as well.

[1:06 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: The least consumption of energy goes back to the days in the 80s and 90s.

[1:06 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: But it can regulate so uses less air-con energy, which is less efficient than the switch

[1:07 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: So u saying go back to that time where no ebikes, no air con, no smart lights, no smart homes, no vacuum cleaners, no robotic vacuums, no robotic cleaners. Then yes ppl then can save electricity

[1:07 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Would you buy more diamonds (assuming you like diamonds) if a 1 carat D, Flawless costs only $1000 compared to what it costs now? How about property prices? If a 1000 sqft condo in CCR costs $1 million "only", would you be more inclined to buy/consume?

I am not saying price is the only consideration, but it is an important consideration in consumption patterns. Subsidies create artificial demand when in this case, what we need is to adjust consumption downwards.

[1:07 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: But once the electricity price goes up, does not matter how much is consumed, it is still money

[1:08 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: And the common people are the ones paying for this high electricity tariff.

[1:08 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: its a bit like how low-fat food does not result in a less obese society because most would consume more of the low-fat alternative which negates the lower calories compared to regular food.

[1:09 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: And smart homes eat the most electricity because the devices need to standby 24/7 so this electricity consumption accumulates

[1:09 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: but less money than an inefficent air-con

[1:09 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Still it does not save much.

[1:10 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: sure- best to focus on the bigger picture! Transport, Manufacturing, etc

[1:12 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: More Mass Transit Options - trains, buses and at some stage dedicated routes for autonomous mass transit vehicles. I don't quite agree with more bicycles if its on the same roads as other vehicles because although bicycles by itself is zero-emission, but the congestion (slower speed/cyclists' refusal to conform to road traffic rules/norms) it causes, increases emissions and reduces energy/fuel efficiency of the other vehicles.

[1:12 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: If manufacturing goes into automation, it eats more electricity. Why? You need to get robotic machines to do the work, those eat electricity. If you have centralised management and monitoring tools, you probably will need to get IT infrastructure stuff like servers. And servers run 24/7 and these eat electricity. U need to have cooling agents to run to make sure servers don't heat up, and also keep that area cold by having 16 degree aircon operating 24/7, all these consume a lot of electricity.

[1:13 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: It is not simple that 2 - 1 = 1 to reduce electricity simply by using more energy efficient devices.

[1:13 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Sometimes the consumption end up more.

[1:14 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Autonomous vehicles eat up electricity. U dun need to charge those vehicles?

[1:15 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Having just an escooter and charging it daily at about 3 hours can choke up additional $20 of electricity bill per month.

[1:15 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Same applies to ebikes too.

[1:16 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: How much will it cost to charge autonomous vehicle daily for a month then?

[1:16 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Erm I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves here. Govt is going green not cos SG can really do anything to move the needle on climate change (we can't, we are tiny country and nothing we do will really matter in the bigger scheme of things) - govt is going green to create more jobs cos it's a business opportunity.

[1:16 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Esp vehicles are larger than escooter and ebikes

[1:16 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: A subsidy is supposed to temporary, not permanent. Too high a subsidy, and it might discourage innovation/progress, too low, and it will not attract sufficient R&D .. its a fine balance. On the consumption side, an artificially low price for too long may result in habits/usage patterns that will be difficult to reverse. Consumers will always gravitate towards the cheaper alternative ie. if when subsidies are eventually removed, and green energy becomes more expensive than fossil fuel generated ones, the consumer will switch back.

[1:17 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Actually the truth is everyone wants to save e environment but most people don't want to change their lifestyle enough to make a real difference. So we just pay lip service.

[1:17 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: True,  and to lead by example

[1:17 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: What i am saying is not to focus on reducing consumption because consumption will never be reduced. It will be increased when the country is going smart and digital. What i suggest is to lower the cost of renewable energies so that the energy cost is more affordable to support the smarter and digitalised nation

[1:18 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: I am referring to permanently lower the cost of green energy

[1:18 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Also true, mostly. I do pay more to use 100% solar electricity

[1:18 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: MRTs/Buses ie. Mass Transit Systems are multiple times more energy efficient and produces less emissions per pax than private transit.. no matter how you slice and dice the data.

[1:19 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: First the sun is free. Yes the devices may cost more, but as comparing to continuing costs incurred for fossil fuels, sun is free. So why can't reduce the cost of using solar energy?

[1:21 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is-now-cheapest-electricity-in-history-confirms-iea

[1:21 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Because converting solar energy to electricity and then sending it to houses is not free. In time as it scales the cost will come down.

[1:21 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Yay!

[1:21 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: It didn't take long  then 😁

[1:22 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Cos solar energy generation is not efficient. It cos more per watt to generate electricity via solar vs burning fuel. If solar is really cheaper everyone already adopted it.

[1:22 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: If IEA says solar is the cheapest electricity, it shows that singapore solar electricity price can be further reduced.

[1:22 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: The work-done/productivity output from an ebike hjas to be compared like for like. Of course if we compare a single ebike rider to a single pax in a car, then ebike is more green in every way. But, the moment you start comparing with a household's needs, which may include transportation of heavier items/equipment, over distances, and time taken - which effects emissons level - then the advantages are not so clear. Go a bit further and compare it with Mass Transit, and the advantage completely disappears

[1:22 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: If in a country with less sunlight, probably. Singapore is on equator line

[1:23 pm, 17/01/2022] +Boon: 👍

[1:23 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: and with AI tech improving, and eveything getting more connected, the efficiency levels will improve further, I believe

[1:24 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Ya. U know how much land you need to generate the equivalent of e fossil fuel power plant? SG land very cheap meh?

[1:24 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: If govt allows singapore homes to use solar energy, why not?

[1:24 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Imagine solar panels on the front corridors on every hdb level.

[1:24 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: .... You try running ur home using solar panel.

[1:25 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Possible if govt allows

[1:25 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Maybe enough to charge ur smartphone

[1:25 pm, 17/01/2022] +65 9661 0607: 👌👍👏

[1:25 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: 😅

[1:25 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: I used solar power banks before. 1 powerbank 5000mah charge takes about 6 hours to charge.

[1:26 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Yes, but what if govt installs on corridors? That will be a bigger solar panel that can store more electricity.

[1:28 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: SG is a small country and a price taker when it comes to energy. We don't have oil under our land, we don't have enough land for solar (plus it's not nearly enough for our energy needs even if we convert out entire city to a giant solar panel), we don't have thermal, don't have wind, don't have hydro. So we better make enough $$ from the services and products we generate with the energy that we BUY FROM OTHER PEOPLE so that we don't go broke.

[1:28 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: How about we put a hydro electric dam in every toilet bowl? Maybe that can help...

[1:29 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: In china, they have solar powered fans that can be used in homes. Isn't such ideas possible in singapore too?

[1:30 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Of cos possible. U can buy it urself and save ur electricity bill. Don't need govt to help u.

[1:30 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Possible. If able to research a way to collect that energy whenever toilet flushes, that can contribute to greener energy too.

[1:30 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: not everything needs to only balck or white. We don't need to choose either extremes. Technological progress has enabled us to use the similar appliances performing the same tasks with far less energy than it used to require... however, there is also a limit to technological advancements and incremental progress in tech will bring about decreasing efficiency returns. So, ultimately, we will need to CONSUME LESS.

[1:30 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: It was meant to b sarcastic.. 😅

[1:31 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Right now we cannot install solar panels at homes due to regulations.

[1:31 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Yes i know u mean sarcastic. I see as opportunity for research

[1:31 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: I'm sure e scientists didn't think of this before... 😁

[1:32 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Agree, let's remove those regulations. I don't think it'll save u too much $ tho

[1:32 pm, 17/01/2022] +RH: Hv solar panel shields for windows in HDB flats? 

But still keep cost of housing affordable despite this?  

--- just expanding on the idea.  😁

[1:33 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Last time during physics we learnt of hydro electricity where electricity is generated when water flows from high to low point and turns the turbine wheel. I don't see why it cannot become a real case if there is research done in it.

[1:34 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: If i pay a small lump sum for the solar panels outside that can save part or all electricity in next 10 to 20 years, why not?

[1:34 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: And so it should rise until such level that it hurts and people would rather choose to consume less.

The Govt should be able to (or maybe they already did) make a study of the average household (depending on number of people) Energy consumption and also set a benchmark of what the ideal level should be, then simply apply a higher/penalty tariff on Energy consumed above that level to discourage over-consumption.

Carrot and stick.. we can't be digging into our National coffers to hand out carrots every time we want to correct a behavior, especially when it is time sensitive.

[1:35 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: 👉🏼 MOH conducting pilot for virtually supervised Covid-19 antigen rapid tests

https://str.sg/wQsF

👉🏼 Integrated Shield Plan extends coverage for Covid-19 vaccine complications till Dec 31

https://str.sg/wQsD

[1:35 pm, 17/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Err solar panel one person very little impact..

If everyone use.. then will affect the power plant supply. Then you see they need to regulate. 

See Germany for reference, why they stop subsidise solar panel

[1:35 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Don't agree coz those who have smart homes definitely consume more energy. Currently still not many people are having smart homes.

[1:36 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Not everything is efficient even when u can do it. Most renewables have major limitations and costs. Otherwise why SG still buy water from Msia when we can desalinate?

[1:36 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: +1

[1:36 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: Then solar panels owned by govt to generate electricity back to the nation power grid. Then can reduce the solar electricity price.

[1:36 pm, 17/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Unless you have a full system that can regluate and store power. Smart to sell back when the system need more power then might work.

[1:37 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: This way can control liao

[1:37 pm, 17/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Battery is the main cost of solar panel… setting up cost is extremely high.. and you still need the power plant for stable power supply.

[1:37 pm, 17/01/2022] +RH: Aside from controlling our consumption & making cost of using green energy cheaper, 

Ther is also the factor of stakeholding... 

Not everyone in SG is in with the Green Plan. 

Many non-English speaking citizens + foreign residents of our country r either unaware / or not bothered / or dun even know what the fuss is abt. 

That is cause for concern when ther is no 100% buy-in to participate in the Green Plan.

[1:38 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Autonomous vehicles communicating with other autonomous vehicles ensures a smoother drive - compared to start-stop driving when human drivers are constantly reacting to each others' "erratic" driving patterns. And I am talking about MASS TRANSIT ie. Trains, buses, delivery vehicles especially

[1:38 pm, 17/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Solar is for supplement not replacement. Atleast technology have not reach the stage

[1:38 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Actually u want lowest electric price, just use fossil fuel la. Simple. Ez. Why go through all this trouble to save a few dollars... 😅

[1:38 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: People don't buy in is because the greener energy costs more than normal electricity.

[1:39 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: That is why no one buys in greener energy at the moment.

[1:39 pm, 17/01/2022] +Ken Loh: Cheapest and stable is nuclear lol… but storage of waste and the risk is high

[1:39 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Don't get too caught up with the hype... Govt just want to create more jobs, not for everyone to b super eco friendly and use inefficient sources of energy...

[1:40 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Or at least that's what I hope they r thinking

[1:40 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: 😅

[1:43 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: See e initial message from Reach... Govt wants us to be "major green FINANCIAL hub"... Not greenest city in e world.

[1:44 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Cost of a full charge for a Tesla X is $15.29. A full charge has a (reported) range of 470km.. that covers my family's weekly driving requirements - school runs, outings, etc, which costs $150 on average at the petrol kiosk.

The charging cost, is probably subsidised by Tesla in order to sell their cars, which will probably expire in the near future.

But the point is, due to the distortion from price subsidies, we should not be focusing on COSTS/PRICE, but rather, actual consumption of the amount of energy and the related emissions.

[1:44 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Maybe to replace the business lost from e troubled oil and gas sector.

[1:46 pm, 17/01/2022] +RH: Gov needs to educate popn & generate more awareness abt reducing consumption. 

Not just thru having marathon runs through parks & forests (appeal to younger gen)  but to other parts of the popn...  Such as the children (in schools ... make it a part of social studies or sth)  ,

the foreign workers - reduce waste,  use materials more sensibly,  etc.,

older gen...  educate on sorting / what is recyclable & non-recyclables  ... In daily use. 

Wat I'm saying is diff ppl understand things differently. 

Ther is no one size fits all. 

Gov wud really need to do more in diff ways to reach out to diff stakeholders if they wan us to adopt the Green Plan....

[1:50 pm, 17/01/2022] +Stella Yip: Hope G offer citizens to invest in solar panels which can be mounted on the exterior walls of hdb flats. Installed by town council/G approved organizations.

Hope G offer citizens to invest in water filtration systems which can be located on balcony of hdb flats.  Water to be clean enough for household cleaning / shower / toilet use. 

Instalment payments from CPF.

[1:51 pm, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: Carbon emission per person every 30 minutes

[1:53 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: That is so true .. about SG not moving the needle ... 

But I think other than creating jobs, SG Govt is also hoping to be an example for other Nations. A test bed and hopefully a successful model than can help influence the narrative elsewhere.

We are vulnerable to rising sea levels and melting arctic polar caps. 

We can mitigate rising sea levels partially (and with a lot of difficulty and costs), but the threat to commerce and our economy from the melting Polar ice caps is out of our hands unless we can influence other Nations to do something to slowdown/halt Global Warming.

As it stands today, the melting of the Arctic ice has enabled the opening of new shipping routes (at certain times of the year) that bypass Singapore as a port completely, further eroding SG's significance/importance to the rest of the world/global commerce.

[1:56 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Its statements like these that add to my worry for the next generation. Many people still do not understand what is at stake. Its the higher consumption that is leading to ruin, and yet, the shouts for subsidies and cost controls so that they can consume more 🤦‍♂️

[1:57 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Actually what I have never understood, is why Singapore is not more reliant on solar energy

[1:58 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Green energy production is not emissions free

[2:03 pm, 17/01/2022] +RH: Gd idea...  👍🏻

[2:10 pm, 17/01/2022] +RH: As part of 'green' education,  

Teach the next gen

How to consume less energy,  wat energy efficient means etc., and

conservation of green spaces on our planet. 

Not just pointing them to the trees & forests in our parks!

[2:15 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: not realiable enough at the moemnt...unfortunately

[2:15 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: but maybe we could try a hybrid model

[2:16 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Solar power supplementing traditional Natgas powered electricity... and slowly transitioning to Solar Power supplemented by traditional energy sources

[2:22 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: actually .. talking about SG has no oil wells... i have been thinking ... we must be quite unlucky seeing how all the countries surrounding us had struck oil 😂😂😂

[3:00 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We’d love to hear more from you on today's topic 😊

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan

[3:17 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Don't access accounts via SMS links, OCBC says to customers; what else you need to know to avoid scams

A couple in their 20s lost about $120,000 in a fake text message scam targeting OCBC Bank customers. They were among at least 469 people who reportedly fell victim to phishing scams involving the bank in the last two weeks of December in 2021.

More: https://str.sg/wQeQ

[3:29 pm, 17/01/2022] +JC: Too much natural resource is sometimes a hidden curse as it leads the economy (and politics) to over rely on extraction rather than innovation & enterprise. Look around the world, it usually just leads to corruption, concentration of wealth and a weakened people.

[3:31 pm, 17/01/2022] +Elena Woo: But as the technology advances and society progresses, it is inevitable. Unless we all go back to caveman mode, sure energy consumption very very less..

[3:34 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: like i said .. there is no need to go to extremes .. yet. Just talking about reductions to current consumption. Straw man arguments are unnecessary and unhelpful.

[3:35 pm, 17/01/2022] +Joseph: Yup. The resource curse 😅

[3:47 pm, 17/01/2022] +Poh S. Lim: Agree. When natural resources are limited, it compels people to become innovative and find ways to survive instead of just relying on those limited resources, to survive and thrive.

[4:41 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We’d love to hear more from you 😊

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan

[5:35 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors

We’d love to hear more from you 😊

We have had good feedback and hope that we can keep the discussion robust and active!

Megan

[6:01 pm, 17/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

1. To achieve a low-carbon society, 2 stakeholders play an important part of the whole "food chain":-

a. Government

b. Business

Consumers like man in the street - play a small part of the "food chain" - because government regulate, business supply and consumers will just buy what is offered.

2. Hence, imposition of carbon tax by the Government should only be directed at incentivise business to supply low carbon products to the Society and consumers will just buy what is offered.

3. Carbon tax will be too complicated and onerous to be levy on consumers as it is the lowest denominator down the "food chain".

4. For eg. governmment can levy carbon tax on say :-

a. Car running on fossil fuel but provide cash incentive to electric car

b. Traditional lamp, TV, monitor but cash incentive for LEDs

c. Fossil fuel for electricity to household but provide cash incentives for sustainable energy like installing solar panels for household, gas etc.

d. Inefficient fridge, air-con, bath heater etc but cash incentive for efficient fridge, DCS aircon, energy efficient heater etc.

5. To conclude, a complex topic of carbon tax can be regulated by the Government and supplied by business - whereas consumers like us, will just buy what is offered that are of low-carbon products.

[6:03 pm, 17/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/about-us/news-and-publications/press-releases/12032021-HDB-Launches-Sixth-SolarNova-Tender-with-Smart-Electrical-Sub-meters-to-Optimise-Energy-Use

[6:03 pm, 17/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Eg. Government can speed up the solar panels installation for more HDB flats and rely less on fossil fuels.

[6:07 pm, 17/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Government incentives should also be given to incentivise private condos and landed properties to convert into green energy sources like solar panels to power their homes.

In this way, the whole nation will be on track to become a Green Nation.

[6:11 pm, 17/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

This will become an inclusive transition towards a low carbon society - because all carbon tax and low carbon supplied products are done at the upstream:-

1. Government level

2. Business level

And consumers will be largely shielded from the complexity of the carbon tax.

But yet achieving a low carbon inclusive society.

[6:18 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: Need to balance speed v effiiency and cost. Panels are getting better, so we don't want to fill the country with too many panels that will be old tech within 2 years.

[6:19 pm, 17/01/2022] +BL: unless we can sell off and upgrade as better models come out!

[6:25 pm, 17/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Every product will have its lifecycle eg. 5 years or 10 years.

Once it reaches its lifespan, then upgrade will be required.

[6:26 pm, 17/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Just like notebook supplied to civil service eg. , 3 years lifespan.

Once due, upgrade exercise begin.

[6:26 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Scientific collaboration key to solving global challenges like climate change: DPM Heng

A strong spirit of collaboration will not only see the world through the Covid-19 pandemic, but will also be crucial in solving other global challenges like climate change, said Deputy Prime Minister Heng Swee Keat on Monday (Jan 17).

More: https://str.sg/wQnS

[6:28 pm, 17/01/2022] +Poh S. Lim: One overlooked item is plastic food packaging. I feel we nexd need to move towards non-plastic food packaging in Singapore as the reliance on plastics in food packaging (e.g. hawker centres) require petroleum products… perhaps more sustainable material such as paper or plant-based raw materials should be encouraged.

[6:29 pm, 17/01/2022] +Dan: Moving paperless

We have to put in our best effort to move to paperless. The irony is while I have opted for electronic billing system, I received another letter confirming that I have opted it. There ought to be a better way of communicating.

[6:29 pm, 17/01/2022] ☸️  Danny 心: 

Again, government regulate, business supply.

Consumer just buy.

[6:30 pm, 17/01/2022] +Timothy Low: Perhaps we should also ban crypto mining. Read that it’s taking up a lot of electricity

[6:45 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

⏰ We will be closing the chat in 15 minutes ⏰

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan

[6:58 pm, 17/01/2022] +Smiley face: 17 January, 2022

To: Distinguished Ministers and All Honorable Members 

The Best Of Both Worlds (Sami & Maori) - "The Green Trails Of The Extreme Pole Nation"

"At the end of the day, is about headcount..." 

- - anonymous 

Two Extremes:

Sweden (Sami) and New Zealand (Maori) are poles apart, North and South. The two countries though structurally each has differences from geography, demographics, climatic change, for & against nuclear energy, lifestyles, politics, and economics. Three common challenges are climate, energy and emission.

One should investigate the "stories" of these two with deeper interest that is to learn, to localise and perhaps to apply into one's situation. New Zealand is no-no for nuclear energy. Perhaps in hesitancy, recent years, its has bad experienced from a series of big earthquakes and the Fukushima nuclear disaster in 2011. 

Tropical (Middle) 

Singapore core competencies are banking, financial, sea-air logistics and OHQ /Regional HQ.  One bright path is hyperscale computing and data centres which is the "data banking" of the future economies. 

How Singapore's top five challenges (Space, Water, Food, Energy, Wasted) will impact our future international positioning as a sweet spot for human capital, coexist and compete? It is a fact that larger countries naturally come with bigger population count and mold hills of social and economics challenges plus the global backdrop of post covid era

Afterwords:

The compact single-reactor nuclear technology has been around since 1955 (USS Nautilus). How a nuclear submarine/ an aircraft carrier sustains and how it discharges the nuclear wasted? How dangerous are these "men-of-war" above sea and undersea - this case, nuclear power generators?

Metaphorically, one can view a small country/city with under 10 million population as a smart & tactical nuclear submarine (USS South Dakota).  A big nation like USA as a big and intelligent nuclear powered aircraft carrier (USS Gerald R. Ford). 

In combination, the aircraft carrier and the submarine are powerful men-of-war. Both navy using nuclear energy to sustain its existence and competing with many navies for relevancy across the 7 seas (4 oceans)! 

Comparatives:

Sweden (Arctic Country ) 

https://sweden.se/climate/sustainability/sweden-and-sustainability

Sweden is by far the most sustainable country within the world. The country has the highest renewable energy usage, lowest carbon emissions, as well as this Sweden has some of the best education programs. By 2045 the country will have reduced their emissions by 85% to 100%. More than half of the energy consumption is produced by renewable sources. Sweden has also lowered their emissions through the use of electric buses, smart roads, and urban farming. Sustainability has also been achieved by the use of food banks, recycling systems, gender equality and housing for vulnerable people.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-o-s/sweden.aspx#:~:text=Sweden's%20nuclear%20power%20reactors%20provide,voted%20to%20repeal%20this%20policy.

New Zealand (Antarctica Country) 

https://www.nzinitiative.org.nz/research/environment/

New Zealand's parliament has passed a legislation to aim for total net zero by 2050. The country has one of the most sustainable farming systems in the world. The population of New Zealand is also committed to sustainable living, the large majority of consumers only buy sustainable products. New Zealand's public transport system has been innovated to reduce the amount of car users.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/100468448/from-uranium-to-nuclear-plants-new-zealands-secret-nuclear-past

            - -  END  - -

[7:00 pm, 17/01/2022] +REACH: Dear Contributors,

We will be closing the chat for today.

Thank you very much for being part of our WhatsApp chat and participating actively.

Goodnight!

Megan 😊

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